B.J. Sander cut

[cuqui]

Here's the official word, at packers.com:

www.packers.com/news/releases/2006/08/21/2/

[Tony Oday]

stupid firewalls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :evil:

[woodbuck27]

Finally !

Congratulations from Canadian football fans to Jon Ryan.and The Green Bay Packers !!

THE GREEN BAY PACKERS - new punter to start 2006.

Well done young MAN ! Do well for your new team.

CONGRATULATINS TO YOUR PACKER FAN - FAMILY Jon. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I'm busting with pride.

GO PACKERS ! FAITH FOR SUCCESS in 2006 !!

GO PACK GO !!!

[vince]

Good decision, IMO. Ryan needs some refining, but you can't teach the kind of leg he's got...

[woodbuck27]

Here - you go Tony:

Packers Release Sander, Schimmelmann

posted 08/21/2006

The Green Bay Packers Monday released punter B.J. Sander and linebacker Kevin Schimmelmann. Ted Thompson, Executive Vice President, General Manager and Director of Football Operations, announced the moves.

Sander, a 6-foot-4, 218-pound veteran from Ohio State, was the Packers' third of three selections in the third round of the 2004 draft after winning the Ray Guy award as the nation's top collegiate punter. Last season, he averaged 39.2 gross yards on 64 punts, with 11 inside the 20 and two touchbacks.

Schimmelmann was signed as a non-drafted free agent out of Stanford in May.

GO PACK GO !!

[Fritz]

Geez, they released Kevin Schimmelman?

[Tony Oday]

Here - you go Tony:

Packers Release Sander, Schimmelmann

posted 08/21/2006

The Green Bay Packers Monday released punter B.J. Sander and linebacker Kevin Schimmelmann. Ted Thompson, Executive Vice President, General Manager and Director of Football Operations, announced the moves.

Sander, a 6-foot-4, 218-pound veteran from Ohio State, was the Packers' third of three selections in the third round of the 2004 draft after winning the Ray Guy award as the nation's top collegiate punter. Last season, he averaged 39.2 gross yards on 64 punts, with 11 inside the 20 and two touchbacks.

Schimmelmann was signed as a non-drafted free agent out of Stanford in May.

GO PACK GO !!

Thanks Outlaw Rat ;)

[woodbuck27]

Here - you go Tony:

Packers Release Sander, Schimmelmann

posted 08/21/2006

The Green Bay Packers Monday released punter B.J. Sander and linebacker Kevin Schimmelmann. Ted Thompson, Executive Vice President, General Manager and Director of Football Operations, announced the moves.

Sander, a 6-foot-4, 218-pound veteran from Ohio State, was the Packers' third of three selections in the third round of the 2004 draft after winning the Ray Guy award as the nation's top collegiate punter. Last season, he averaged 39.2 gross yards on 64 punts, with 11 inside the 20 and two touchbacks.

Schimmelmann was signed as a non-drafted free agent out of Stanford in May.

GO PACK GO !!

Thanks Outlaw Rat ;)

Tony. Thanks for all you do for me, as a Packer fan here.You inspire me with your positiveness.

Good stuff man.

Now . . .This beer is for Jon Ryan. Yes SIR !!! :mrgreen:

GO PACK GO !!

[Tarlam!]

Wham Bam Ted's THE Man!

[woodbuck27]

Wham Bam Ted's THE Man!

Ted Thompson = Dave Rayner = Jon Ryan =

consistency from Ted Thompson.

GO PACKERS ! FAITH FOR 2006 PACKER FANS !!

[HarveyWallbangers]

This doesn't mean Ryan has made the team. This means they are giving Ryan and Rayner more opportunities to show they belong on the team. You can be sure that if either struggles, the Packers will be looking at any decent veteran that gets cut.

[Scott Campbell]

It's a sad day for Eddie Munster fans everywhere. I guess this means we won't be able to trade him to Houston (Sherman).

http://images.packers.com/images/headshots/sander_bj.jpg

[Deputy Nutz]

This doesn't mean Ryan has made the team. This means they are giving Ryan and Rayner more opportunities to show they belong on the team. You can be sure that if either struggles, the Packers will be looking at any decent veteran that gets cut.

Yes but this finally makes it offical, In the 2004 draft the Packers led by Mike Sherman had the worst 3rd round in the history of the NFL draft. Three players selected, and three players cut, all in less than 3 seasons with the Green Bay Packers, and not to mention the draft picks wasted to pick up these players.. Way to go Mike!!!

[Scott Campbell]

We actually incur a cap hit from this - don't we?

[woodbuck27]

Here's the official word, at packers.com:

www.packers.com/news/releases/2006/08/21/2/

DAM inconsiderate of me cuqui.

THANKS for "that News" and WELCOME TO YOUR NEW PACKER FORUM.

GO PACK GO !!

[red]

good move

bout time

[BananaMan]

Happy about the move.

Guess the BJ era is over. No more BJ. What's going to happen to the BJ Fan Club that was started a very long time ago? I mean, who doesn't like a BJ? I guess TT doesn't like a BJ. :lol:

Seriously though, I think Ryan will be our punter for many years to come. He has loads of potential.

[KYPack]

I live in the Cincy area (Nothern Kentucky)

When the Packers drafted Sanders, I was working out at the gym. The news of Sanders draft selection came on the TV. A "buddy" of mine asked me what I thought Sanders' selection. I mumbled something to the effect that that was a hell of high price for a punter. My "pal" then grinned & said, "I'd like introduce to his high school coach" & It was, the guy on the next machine was Sanders coach from a nearby high school. The guy was ok & all & assured me Sanders would be a 10 year All Pro.

I never did hassle the guy about all Sanders career fuck-ups, but I used to see him all the time. Every time I hear of Sanders, I think about my meeting w/ his coach.

I'm so glad the Sanders era is over.

Did everybody see the article that there are more guys on the roster from the Wolf era than the Shermie era?

[woodbuck27]

It's a sad day for Eddie Munster fans everywhere. I guess this means we won't be able to trade him to Houston (Sherman).

http://images.packers.com/images/headshots/sander_bj.jpg

Is Mike Sherman licking his lips or whhaaat, Scott? :mrgreen:

GO PACK GO !! PACKER FAN FAITH !!

[Scott Campbell]

Did everybody see the article that there are more guys on the roster from the Wolf era than the Shermie era?


Are you kidding me????

That's the most amazing and pathetic stat I've heard in years. It probably deserves it's own thread.

[Partial]

Did everybody see the article that there are more guys on the roster from the Wolf era than the Shermie era?


Are you kidding me????

That's the most amazing and pathetic stat I've heard in years. It probably deserves it's own thread.

thats the kind of stat that would shut tank up

[mraynrand]

Did everybody see the article that there are more guys on the roster from the Wolf era than the Shermie era?

I mentioned something to this effect on the other punting thread. My theory from early last year has been that TT has been purging Shermy picks just as fast as he possibly can.

[Partial]

Did everybody see the article that there are more guys on the roster from the Wolf era than the Shermie era?

I mentioned something to this effect on the other punting thread. My theory from early last year has been that TT has been purging Shermy picks just as fast as he possibly can.

As long as he replaces them with a competent player I am fine with it.

[pbmax]

I am surprised by the competition leaving camp this early. Maybe before the 4th pre-season game so you can have a full game tryout. But its definitely earlier than I remember other competitions ending.

Harvey is probably right when he says this doesn't close the door on others coming in.

However, Thompson and McCarthy seem to be far more decisive, and faster, than Sherman.

[CaliforniaCheez]

The New York Giants offered $10K more to sign him but Ryan chose the packers because he considered his chances better to make the team.

Less money down can lead to more money later.

One classic draft day blunder made by Sherman that screamed for his removal as GM. The move (or was it Truluck) that convinced Bob Harlan that a new GM was needed.

[mraynrand]

Did everybody see the article that there are more guys on the roster from the Wolf era than the Shermie era?


Are you kidding me????

That's the most amazing and pathetic stat I've heard in years. It probably deserves it's own thread.

thats the kind of stat that would shut tank up


I don't think it's all that surprising. Shermy was in charge 2002,3, and 4. He had help from Hatley until his demise, and then it was pretty much downhill from there on out. Still, three years is a very short tenure as GM, especially when you have a .667 winning percentage. Millen can't win more than 6-7 games in one year, burns through three coaches, and gets a contract extension. go figure.

[Chester Marcol]

I mentioned to my friend as we watched the game that I wondered if the fact that Ryan was holding on FG's/PAT's was a good sign for him/bad sign for BJ.

[mraynrand]

One classic draft day blunder made by Sherman that screamed for his removal as GM. The move (or was it Truluck) that convinced Bob Harlan that a new GM was needed.

Ron Wolf's blunder in drafting Conway in the third round in '96 was probably the reason Harlan decided it was time for a new GM. Or maybe it was Jonathan Brown. or was it Steve Warren. More likely it was 2001: Jamaal Reynolds, Robert Ferguson, Bah Jue, Torrence Marshall, and Bill Ferrario - now there's a final draft legacy to be proud of....

[woodbuck27]

This doesn't mean Ryan has made the team. This means they are giving Ryan and Rayner more opportunities to show they belong on the team. You can be sure that if either struggles, the Packers will be looking at any decent veteran that gets cut.

OK Harvey - of course your right but . . . **

** finish the senrence (Harvey)

words you might consider:

piss on
rain on
parade
spoil
dampen
today

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

GO PACKERS ! FAITH !!

GO PACKERS !!

[KYPack]

thats the kind of stat that would shut tank up

No, Bro.

Tank has been told the ridiculous nature of thousands of his foolish posts. He was quoted the statistics, shown facts, etc. It never fazed the fool one way or the other. He's, like, too stupid to kill.

[Scott Campbell]

thats the kind of stat that would shut tank up

No, Bro.

Tank has been told the ridiculous nature of thousands of his foolish posts. He was quoted the statistics, shown facts, etc. It never fazed the fool one way or the other. He's, like, too stupid to kill.


Now don't go gettin all sentimental on us KY.


:razz:

[Cheesehead Craig]

We actually incur a cap hit from this - don't we?
Not much of one. About 145k this year and next year. His base was 425k, so we saved about 300k this year! Think of all the players we can sign for that! :lol:

[Scott Campbell]

I mentioned something to this effect on the other punting thread. My theory from early last year has been that TT has been purging Shermy picks just as fast as he possibly can.


Your comment is just as ludicrous on this thread. Who would you have kept???

Do you really think Thompson is dumb enough to cut a good player just because Sherman drafted him? Utterly ridiculous.

The only Sherman apologist I've known ever to go to such ridiculous lengths is GreenDay.

[FritzDontBlitz]

This doesn't mean Ryan has made the team. This means they are giving Ryan and Rayner more opportunities to show they belong on the team. You can be sure that if either struggles, the Packers will be looking at any decent veteran that gets cut.

Yes but this finally makes it offical, In the 2004 draft the Packers led by Mike Sherman had the worst 3rd round in the history of the NFL draft. Three players selected, and three players cut, all in less than 3 seasons with the Green Bay Packers, and not to mention the draft picks wasted to pick up these players.. Way to go Mike!!!

my memory fails me. who were the other two?

[Scott Campbell]

Donnel Washington.

[Partial]

This doesn't mean Ryan has made the team. This means they are giving Ryan and Rayner more opportunities to show they belong on the team. You can be sure that if either struggles, the Packers will be looking at any decent veteran that gets cut.

Yes but this finally makes it offical, In the 2004 draft the Packers led by Mike Sherman had the worst 3rd round in the history of the NFL draft. Three players selected, and three players cut, all in less than 3 seasons with the Green Bay Packers, and not to mention the draft picks wasted to pick up these players.. Way to go Mike!!!

my memory fails me. who were the other two?

Donnell Washington and Joey Thomas

[woodbuck27]

Did everybody see the article that there are more guys on the roster from the Wolf era than the Shermie era?

I mentioned something to this effect on the other punting thread. My theory from early last year has been that TT has been purging Shermy picks just as fast as he possibly can.

No No NO .Don't give an ounce of credit to Jon Ryan's skill and upside.

Rather. Explain around that, mraynrand??

Why didn't Ted Thompson cut BJ Sander as soon as he signed Jon Ryan, mraynrand? Your argument based on that query may be bogus? Just a thought mraynrand. :mrgreen:

I'll suggest this. Look at your post to me on the other thread , and reverse the names in regards to who was pushing whom. :mrgreen:

I'll also suggest this. Why not just be happy that BJ Sander can move onto something else, and Jon Ryan got a wee vote of confidence - or is it better to go to "sour grapes"?

Whatever works for you Man. :mrgreen:

GO PACK GO !!

PACKER FAN FAITH FOR 2006 !!

[Scott Campbell]

No No NO .Don't give an ounce of credit to Jon Ryan's skill and upside.



Ryan didn't win the job as much as BJ lost it. And boy, did he ever lose it. Ryan still needs to improve, and lets just hope he does.

[MadtownPacker]

About damn time the dead weight gets removed!!!

I dont care about what he has done since but after bj shanked that punt his rookie preseason then laughed I knew I wanted him gone.

[oregonpackfan]

The Packers are in the midst of shaking themselves from the frightening ghost of Mike Sherman as GM. Overall, his draft selections and personnel decisions as GM have to qualify him as one of the worst GM's the Packers have ever had.

OPF

[test]

no then you won't get props for cross-linking!

[FritzDontBlitz]

i personally thought tt should have shitcanned sander as soon as ryan was signed. and i'm not sad to see sherm's picks go either.

[Astonishment]

We actually incur a cap hit from this - don't we?

Technically we will take a small cap hit of $145,906. I can't find what his base salary is for this year, but last years was 305,000. Assuming that he had a pay increase or at least had the same salary we will save money this year (his cap number this year would be $450,906 if his salary stayed the same), but have the $145,906 as dead money next year. Again that is cheaper than if he was on the roster, so although it is technically a hit it still saves money.

[KYPack]

thats the kind of stat that would shut tank up

No, Bro.

Tank has been told the ridiculous nature of thousands of his foolish posts. He was quoted the statistics, shown facts, etc. It never fazed the fool one way or the other. He's, like, too stupid to kill.


Now don't go gettin all sentimental on us KY.


:razz:

Ya got me there, Scott. Guess I was homesick for Tank to pick on one last time

I know you miss being called a polygamist by the fool. (He said my name was Italian for "Ho". Also made no sense).

I kind of screwed up my post. It's an old Army joke. "How do them new recruits look?

Ah, they're too dumb to shoot"!

[woodbuck27]

We actually incur a cap hit from this - don't we?

Technically we will take a small cap hit of $145,906. I can't find what his base salary is for this year, but last years was 305,000. Assuming that he had a pay increase or at least had the same salary we will save money this year (his cap number this year would be $450,906 if his salary stayed the same), but have the $145,906 as dead money next year. Again that is cheaper than if he was on the roster, so although it is technically a hit it still saves money.

We certainly have the CAP room to handle that loss of cutting BJ Sander, and OUR punting last year was horrible. NO - worse than that.

Find a word? :mrgreen:

We needed a change for certain, and whether it's Ryan or not Packer fans.

It wasn't going to be BJ Sander as OUR punter for 2006.

Is this move a shock to anyone? :?:

GO PACKERS ! THE BEST ROSTER FOR PACKER FANS - SUCCESS in 2006 !!

[Astonishment]

I just found that sandersbase salary this year was $425,000. Assuming the same amount of increase his 2007 salary would have been $545,000 for a total cap hit of $690,906 (his signing bonus appears to be evening spead through the contract). So cutting him saves $545,000 in cap next year.

As a side note the Packers have $7,516,376 in dead money this year that should be added next year to our cap space (it doesn't appear that any of that money will be still on the books next year). Also right now we have $8,138,200 available cap room.

[jack's smirking revenge]

This doesn't mean Ryan has made the team. This means they are giving Ryan and Rayner more opportunities to show they belong on the team. You can be sure that if either struggles, the Packers will be looking at any decent veteran that gets cut.

Yes but this finally makes it offical, In the 2004 draft the Packers led by Mike Sherman had the worst 3rd round in the history of the NFL draft. Three players selected, and three players cut, all in less than 3 seasons with the Green Bay Packers, and not to mention the draft picks wasted to pick up these players.. Way to go Mike!!!

I was just about to make that comment Nutz, but, as always, you beat me....errr...beat me to it.

tyler

[mraynrand]

I mentioned something to this effect on the other punting thread. My theory from early last year has been that TT has been purging Shermy picks just as fast as he possibly can.


Your comment is just as ludicrous on this thread. Who would you have kept???

Do you really think Thompson is dumb enough to cut a good player just because Sherman drafted him? Utterly ridiculous.



See if you can follow this logic, Scott:

Sherman was a relatively inexperienced GM.
His right hand man died of an MI after just one season
He makes some pretty poor draft choices as GM in years 2 and 3
Enter in new GM
New GM notices that picks from last two seasons are pretty poor.
New GM decides to get rid of picks from last two seasons because they are pretty poor
New GM cannot get rid of all picks right away because he must replace them with warm bodies, preferable, better bodies
Virtually every chance the new GM has to replace Sherman's picks with different personel, he has done so.

In summary, Sherman's last two drafts were filled with poor picks, therefore, TT has been getting rid of them as fast as possible. This statement makes ABSOLUTELY NO CLAIM that any of the personnel should have been retained. Did you not notice this? Perhaps some could argue that Javon Walker could have been kept, seeing as he was a Pro Bowler and cost the Packers a low #1 and #2 pick, but Walker was pretty intent on leaving wasn't he? I guess I just don't understand where anything I've written is ludicrous, but I'm sure you'll tell me. Perhaps you just assumed too much.

[BallHawk]

Glad to see him out of here. If Ryan can get his hangtime up, than he can defintely be a succesful punter in the NFL.

[jack's smirking revenge]

It still irks me that Charmin burned a 3rd round pick ON A PUNTER!!!

Oh the horror.

tyler

[mraynrand]

It still irks me that Charmin burned a 3rd round pick ON A PUNTER!!!

Oh the horror.

tyler
I agree. I felt the same way when Ron Wolf blew a third round pick on a place kicker - and Conway didn't even make the team.

[Partial]

It still irks me that Charmin burned a 3rd round pick ON A PUNTER!!!

Oh the horror.

tyler
I agree. I felt the same way when Ron Wolf blew a third round pick on a place kicker - and Conway didn't even make the team.

atleast longwell emerged from that debacle

[mraynrand]

It still irks me that Charmin burned a 3rd round pick ON A PUNTER!!!

Oh the horror.

tyler
I agree. I felt the same way when Ron Wolf blew a third round pick on a place kicker - and Conway didn't even make the team.

atleast longwell emerged from that debacle

Which showed that Wolf was a better wheeler and dealer as GM than as a draft guy (he was a tremendous dealer!! iT's weird - almost like he got better at judging a guy if he was wearing a pro uniform). Wolf grew up in the football era where more deals were made. In fact, I recall him lamenting that the ability to make trades had dimished with the way contrats are structured.

[AtlPackFan]

This doesn't mean Ryan has made the team. This means they are giving Ryan and Rayner more opportunities to show they belong on the team. You can be sure that if either struggles, the Packers will be looking at any decent veteran that gets cut.

I agree. It's more about BJ is not the answer than Ryan is.

[Scott Campbell]

I guess I just don't understand where anything I've written is ludicrous, but I'm sure you'll tell me. Perhaps you just assumed too much.

This is what I based my assumption on. Doesn't seem like that far of a stretch to me.


[If nothing else, I should have guessed that Ryan would be kept, IF FOR NO OTHER REASON, the fact that TT has been getting rid of Shermy guys as fast as he possibly can.


There's no mention of the players talent, or lack therof - only the reference to being Shermy guys.

[BooHoo]

This doesn't mean Ryan has made the team. This means they are giving Ryan and Rayner more opportunities to show they belong on the team. You can be sure that if either struggles, the Packers will be looking at any decent veteran that gets cut.

I agree. It's more about BJ is not the answer than Ryan is.

Appears to be the case. BJ just didn't work out. And we spent a third round pick on a punter that we cut.

[Mazzin]

I saw that comming, he was a wasted pick in my opinion along with Donels big ol' ass! Good for T.T. As many of you may or may not remember I was hating TT for a while, but I'm starting to like his old ass! Jon Ryan may not have the best get off time, but he has one monster fucking leg, you can't teach that shit! Way to go TT

GO PACK GO! :mrgreen:

[Scott Campbell]

See if you can follow this logic, Scott:

Sherman was a relatively inexperienced GM.
His right hand man died of an MI after just one season
He makes some pretty poor draft choices as GM in years 2 and 3
Enter in new GM
New GM notices that picks from last two seasons are pretty poor.
New GM decides to get rid of picks from last two seasons because they are pretty poor
New GM cannot get rid of all picks right away because he must replace them with warm bodies, preferable, better bodies
Virtually every chance the new GM has to replace Sherman's picks with different personel, he has done so.


Ok you asked, so I'll see if I can play along with your "logic".

1) "Sherman was a relatively inexperienced GM."

Relatively inexperienced????? He had zero nada zilch experience - roughly the same amount as Tank. Flawed logic.

2) "His right hand man died of an MI after just one season"

And I nearly died of embarrassment when we traded up for BJ. So what. Hartley's heart attack (no matter how tragic) is no excuse for Sherman's well documented blunders. Sherman never brought it up as an excuse, and neither should you. Flawed logic.

3) "He makes some pretty poor draft choices as GM in years 2 and 3"

Pretty poor???? And Ken Lay made some pretty poor moves running Enron. Flawed logic.

4) "Enter in new GM"

Mercifully. And Sherman didn't just magically dissappear - he was stripped of his duties. Replaced. Re-assigned. And these things happened because he was incompetent.

5) "New GM notices that picks from last two seasons are pretty poor."

Tibetan Monks knew that Sherman's picks sucked. You certainly don't need to be GM material to see that. Flawed logic.

6) "New GM decides to get rid of picks from last two seasons because they are pretty poor"

Not true. There are still some on the team, and not every one of them sucked. Flawed logic.

7) "New GM cannot get rid of all picks right away because he must replace them with warm bodies, preferable, better bodies"

The new GM got rid of his own pick Bragg last year too. And that was even before he was done with your mythical Sherman housecleaning. Every GM wants better players. And there quickly comes a point where draft pedigree makes no difference in the decision. Flawed logic.

8) "Virtually every chance the new GM has to replace Sherman's picks with different personel, he has done so."

Thompson has only replaced players that sucked, as would any competent GM. It doesn't seem to me that the man who drafted them ever entered into the equation - unless you're into crazy consipiracy theories. Or unless your like GD, a confirmed Shermy apologist. Flawed logic.

Or am I assuming too much?

[mraynrand]

[quote=mraynrand]I guess I just don't understand where anything I've written is ludicrous, but I'm sure you'll tell me. Perhaps you just assumed too much.

This is what I based my assumption on. Doesn't seem like that far of a stretch to me.


[If nothing else, I should have guessed that Ryan would be kept, IF FOR NO OTHER REASON, the fact that TT has been getting rid of Shermy guys as fast as he possibly can.

I answered this in the other thread. You made the assumption, and no matter how little a stretch you think it is, you're simply wrong. How hard is it to acknowledge that TT may have a higher opinion of his own picks (and those of his mentor Ron Wolf) than those of a three year neophyte, Mike Sherman, that have a consistent pattern of sucking?

[Packnut]

I know he's done a lot of good but I'm not giving the boss a free pass on this one. He's the one who made Sherman GM and he's gotta be held accountable for that BLUNDER just as Sherman is accountable for taking a punter who SUCKED with our 3rd pick!

[Scott Campbell]

Mispost.

[esoxx]

It still irks me that Charmin burned a 3rd round pick ON A PUNTER!!!

Oh the horror.

tyler
I agree. I felt the same way when Ron Wolf blew a third round pick on a place kicker - and Conway didn't even make the team.

atleast longwell emerged from that debacle

Which showed that Wolf was a better wheeler and dealer as GM than as a draft guy


Yes, Wolf was a solid "wheeler and dealer" but he was also a solid draft guy. You mentioned some of the busts he drafted. Every GM drafts busts from time to time, it really not possible not to. The thing is, Wolf wasn't trading UP to draft those busts you mentioned whereas Sherman was, making it doubly bad for Sherm. Overall, Wolf owns a very solid drafting record, which laid the foundation of the "glory years II" era and beyond.

[mraynrand]

See if you can follow this logic, Scott:

Sherman was a relatively inexperienced GM.
His right hand man died of an MI after just one season
He makes some pretty poor draft choices as GM in years 2 and 3
Enter in new GM
New GM notices that picks from last two seasons are pretty poor.
New GM decides to get rid of picks from last two seasons because they are pretty poor
New GM cannot get rid of all picks right away because he must replace them with warm bodies, preferable, better bodies
Virtually every chance the new GM has to replace Sherman's picks with different personel, he has done so.


Ok you asked, so I'll see if I can play along with your "logic".

1) "Sherman was a relatively inexperienced GM."

Relatively inexperienced????? He had zero nada zilch experience - roughly the same amount as Tank. Flawed logic. Actually, you're logic is flawed. You're just proving my point that he had less experience.

2) "His right hand man died of an MI after just one season"

And I nearly died of embarrassment when we traded up for BJ. So what. Hartley's heart attack (no matter how tragic) is no excuse for Sherman's well documented blunders. Sherman never brought it up as an excuse, and neither should you. Flawed logic.

So because Sherman didn't use it as an excuse, it didn't affect him? So I guess people have to cry a river for you to think that something affected them...Flawed thinking

3) "He makes some pretty poor draft choices as GM in years 2 and 3"

Pretty poor???? And Ken Lay made some pretty poor moves running Enron. Flawed logic.

Nick Barnett, Al Harris (traded) and Ahmad Carroll (maybe) were decent picks. Peterson, Jenkins, possibly marginal. And some very poor lower round picks. Ken Lay's errors were collosal in his field. Shermans were in later rounds. Sorry, no solid relative comparison, only hyperbole.


5) "New GM notices that picks from last two seasons are pretty poor."

Tibetan Monks knew that Sherman's picks sucked. You certainly don't need to be GM material to see that. Flawed logic.

I don't see where this logic is flawed, except for the fact that you agree with it. Most of the picks from 2003 and 2004 sucked. Do you disagree? If you do, flawed logic. If you do, you contradict yourself and - flawed logic Plus, where do you get your information on what Tibetan Monks think, or are you just assuming again.

6) "New GM decides to get rid of picks from last two seasons because they are pretty poor"

Not true. There are still some on the team, and not every one of them sucked. Flawed logic.

Nice try, I didn't say all of the picks. I said "decides to get rid of picks from last two seasons" That statement is completely ture. You assumed (AGAIN) the ALL. Flawed logic.

7) "New GM cannot get rid of all picks right away because he must replace them with warm bodies, preferable, better bodies"

The new GM got rid of his own pick Bragg last year too. And that was even before he was done with your mythical Sherman housecleaning. Every GM wants better players. And there quickly comes a point where draft pedigree makes no difference in the decision. Flawed logic.

Oooooh, TT cut one of his own 12 draft picks. Your argument does not address my statement - TT kept some picks because he wasn't able to replace them in a single year. This is a simple one Scott. If TT could have replaced players with guys that could get him to the Superbowl, he would have done so. Since he did not do this, and the Packers did not make the Superbowl, it is certain that he did not replace all the guys he wanted to replace. Flawed logic again.

8) "Virtually every chance the new GM has to replace Sherman's picks with different personel, he has done so."

Thompson has only replaced players that sucked, as would any competent GM. It doesn't seem to me that the man who drafted them ever entered into the equation - unless you're into crazy consipiracy theories. Or unless your like GD, a confirmed Shermy apologist. Flawed logic.

What is GD? Since Sherman's picks overwhelmingly sucked, it was more likely that they would be the first to be replaced, and that TT would seek to replace them above and beyond other players. Simple logic, and has nothing to do with conspiracy theories ASSUMED by you. It's weird to call someone a Shermy apologist who says that many of his picks sucked and that he had two marginal to atrocious years as GM. FLAWED LOGIC

Or am I assuming too much?

Yep, you're assuming too much and thinking like your brain is on ludes. Ooops, there's that REFERence to Tank again.

[Scott Campbell]

I don't know of many people wanting to compare Sherman to Wolf just because Wolf drafted Conway in the 3rd.

[Scott Campbell]

Yep, you're assuming too much and thinking like your brain is on ludes. Ooops, there's that REFERence to Tank again.


Ahhh, well good then. We agree that Sherman completely sucked as a GM.

[mraynrand]

"Every GM drafts busts from time to time, it really not possible not to. The thing is, Wolf wasn't trading UP to draft those busts you mentioned whereas Sherman was, making it doubly bad for Sherm."

I agree. But this is only an opinion. I think you should keep your picks, and build up. but Shermy had a mixed bag trading his picks. Most of his trade ups that failed were in later rounds 3rd on down and when he traded earlier picks (#2 for Harris and a #2 to move up for Walker) things worked out pretty well. Two #4s for Glenn would have been worth it had the Packers won the SB in 2002, but that wasn't really Shermy's fault.

[Scott Campbell]

"Every GM drafts busts from time to time, it really not possible not to. The thing is, Wolf wasn't trading UP to draft those busts you mentioned whereas Sherman was, making it doubly bad for Sherm."

I agree. But this is only an opinion. I think you should keep your picks, and build up. but Shermy had a mixed bag trading his picks. Most of his trade ups that failed were in later rounds 3rd on down and when he traded earlier picks (#2 for Harris and a #2 to move up for Walker) things worked out pretty well. Two #4s for Glenn would have been worth it had the Packers won the SB in 2002, but that wasn't really Shermy's fault.

Walker did not work out well. We got a good year and a half out of him, and a 2nd round pick in return. The rest of his time here was spent A) sucking B) in rehab or C) sulking.

[mraynrand]

Yep, you're assuming too much and thinking like your brain is on ludes. Ooops, there's that REFERence to Tank again.


Ahhh, well good then. We agree that Sherman completely sucked as a GM.

I guess it depends on what you mean by completely sucked. Sucked as bad as Butch Davis? As Matt Millen? No. Sucked realtive to Belichick. Yes. Comparable to Parcells in Dallas? Close. Based on record alone he was perhaps one of the best GMs ever fired at .667. He had some very poor picks and some (few) clear successes. I'd say he was poor/marginal. But a lot of GMs that are considered very good also had years just as bad, if not worse than Shermy's 2003 and 2004, especially when drafting at the bottom of the first round. Just check out 1999 and 2001 for Ron Wolf.

[mraynrand]

Walker did not work out well. We got a good year and a half out of him, and a 2nd round pick in return. The rest of his time here was spent A) sucking B) in rehab or C) sulking.

Sherman didn't injure him and Shreman wasn't responsible for him in 2005.

[TPF]

Walker did not work out well. We got a good year and a half out of him, and a 2nd round pick in return. The rest of his time here was spent A) sucking B) in rehab or C) sulking.

Sherman didn't injure him and Shreman wasn't responsible for him in 2005.

Yeah, you can't blame Shermy on that.

[mraynrand]

I don't know of many people wanting to compare Sherman to Wolf just because Wolf drafted Conway in the 3rd.

I like this comparison, especially since Sherman shold have learned from Wolf's mistake, since he was around when it happened. Sherman takes a lot of heat for the Sander pick and Sander treatment. It's well deserved.

[BooHoo]

Well, I can't say that Sherman was the best at the draft. But even Wolf didn't always pick em right. It appears that it's an educated crap shoot regardless of who is at the helm.

[Scott Campbell]

Walker did not work out well. We got a good year and a half out of him, and a 2nd round pick in return. The rest of his time here was spent A) sucking B) in rehab or C) sulking.

Sherman didn't injure him and Shreman wasn't responsible for him in 2005.

Yeah, you can't blame Shermy on that.

I try to blame Sherman for everything, including global warming and an unstable Middle East.

[Scott Campbell]

Well, I can't say that Sherman was the best at the draft. But even Wolf didn't always pick em right. It appears that it's an educated crap shoot regardless of who is at the helm.

Some GM's (especially Sherman) are crappier than others.

[retailguy]

Walker did not work out well. We got a good year and a half out of him, and a 2nd round pick in return. The rest of his time here was spent A) sucking B) in rehab or C) sulking.

Sherman didn't injure him and Shreman wasn't responsible for him in 2005.


Greenday, er Mraynrand, or whoever you are.... :wink:

You can hit all these people with logic, over and over adnauseum and it will never matter. Sherman causes them to "SEE RED" because he didn't deliver the promised land. There is no tolerance for failure in fandom.

If you look at the "big picture" (getting to the Super Bowl before Favre retired), it doesn't make Sherman's picks any better, BUT, it sure makes more sense than saying he's an "idiot", or a "poor evaluator of talent".

Had Sherman got the team "over the top" and succeeded with the talent he had for one run, which is probably all he had a shot at, he'd have still drafted "crappy" players and we'd still be where we are today, but the troops would be a hell of a lot more patient, with THE SAME SITUATION.

Ayn, just give it up. We've got a bunch of people here who have their judgement clouded and will never see the Sherman years in perspective.

Comparisons to old coaches and Sherman is just STUPID. Most of these people didn't live to watch Bart Starr, Forrest Gregg, or Dan Devine, yet they think Sherman ranked with them. Maybe we ought to sponsor some re-runs of old games while these guys were coached. Maybe Patler could compare the "talent" level of those teams....

Disclaimer - My purpose is NOT TO DEFEND the picks Sherman made, only to put the years into their "proper" context. I didn't like trading up to draft a punter anymore than anyone else here, but I do understand WHY he did that. You can understand WHY and not agree with it....

[esoxx]

Walker did not work out well. We got a good year and a half out of him, and a 2nd round pick in return. The rest of his time here was spent A) sucking B) in rehab or C) sulking.

Sherman didn't injure him and Shreman wasn't responsible for him in 2005.


Greenday, er Mraynrand, or whoever you are.... :wink:

You can hit all these people with logic, over and over adnauseum and it will never matter. Sherman causes them to "SEE RED" because he didn't deliver the promised land. There is no tolerance for failure in fandom.

If you look at the "big picture" (getting to the Super Bowl before Favre retired), it doesn't make Sherman's picks any better, BUT, it sure makes more sense than saying he's an "idiot", or a "poor evaluator of talent".

Had Sherman got the team "over the top" and succeeded with the talent he had for one run, which is probably all he had a shot at, he'd have still drafted "crappy" players and we'd still be where we are today, but the troops would be a hell of a lot more patient, with THE SAME SITUATION.

Ayn, just give it up. We've got a bunch of people here who have their judgement clouded and will never see the Sherman years in perspective.

Comparisons to old coaches and Sherman is just STUPID. Most of these people didn't live to watch Bart Starr, Forrest Gregg, or Dan Devine, yet they think Sherman ranked with them. Maybe we ought to sponsor some re-runs of old games while these guys were coached. Maybe Patler could compare the "talent" level of those teams....

Disclaimer - My purpose is NOT TO DEFEND the picks Sherman made, only to put the years into their "proper" context. I didn't like trading up to draft a punter anymore than anyone else here, but I do understand WHY he did that. You can understand WHY and not agree with it....


You know what retail, I actually think we're in the same camp. I do understand WHY Sherman traded up. I do. It's just that, his picks for the most part sucked donkey balls. That's the problem and that's why he's thought of as being a poor GM here. Trade up all you like, get the ammo you need to put a team on the field. Just make sure when you do trade up, don't consistently draft junk like Donnell Washington, James Lee, BJ Sander, Hunter Hillemayer (decent pick but foolishly left off the 53 man roster), Kenny "Big Game" Peterson, Brennan Curtain, etc..

So the WHY part I understand. It's the results of the picks part that ticks me off. As it does you. I'm glad we had this conversation.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Too bad Sander didn't go to Michigan. Then, bulldog could start posts about how underrated Sander really is. Sander's blows. He's an embarrassment to Ohio State, but not the embarrassment that Mo Clarett is.

It's 50/50 on whether Ryan punts come the regular season.

[retailguy]

You know what retail, I actually think we're in the same camp. I do understand WHY Sherman traded up. I do. It's just that, his picks for the most part sucked donkey balls. That's the problem and that's why he's thought of as being a poor GM here. Trade up all you like, get the ammo you need to put a team on the field. Just make sure when you do trade up, don't consistently draft junk like Donnell Washington, James Lee, BJ Sander, Hunter Hillemayer (decent pick but foolishly left off the 53 man roster), Kenny "Big Game" Peterson, Brennan Curtain, etc..

So the WHY part I understand. It's the results of the picks part that ticks me off. As it does you. I'm glad we had this conversation.


Esoxx, thanks.

I think the "biggest" problem with all the trades is the few picks Sherman was actually left with. That didn't help the "odds" that a player would pan out. I'm sure that Sherman justified all the trades with the idea that the drafted player fit a "particular need", but in the end, the trade ups doomed him.

Sherman had a "Super Bowl or Bust" mentality and had NO PLAN for failure. That was his biggest mistake. He didn't think he'd still be trying to "hit" the goal in 03 or 04, and his moves by that point were laced with desperation. No one succeeds in that environment.

[Scott Campbell]

You can't argue with this.

http://www.packerforum.com/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/10289/normal_sherman_sleep.jpg

[falco]

does anybody here have customized license plates the same as their user name?

[Green Bud Packer]

i don't have one good thing to say about sherm the worm so i'll say nothing at all. ted cutting kickers early and putting the load on one guy makes sense for the pack if thomp feels he'll be able to pick up a cundiff or sanders type kicker in final cut downs. by the way, sweet cap mazzin.

[MadtownPacker]

Sherman had a "Super Bowl or Bust" mentality and had NO PLAN for failure. That was his biggest mistake. He didn't think he'd still be trying to "hit" the goal in 03 or 04, and his moves by that point were laced with desperation. No one succeeds in that environment.
Thats why I try to not bash him, cuz he did throw all the chips on the table and try to win it now. For that I cant hate on him but everyone knew it was time for a change.

[retailguy]

SC,

I really do love that pic, but c'mon, it is no different than picking one sentence someone said here, and taking it out of context, and using it over and over and over. You really don't know what else was going on there, other than Sherm needed a nap.

[Partial]

does anybody here have customized license plates the same as their user name?

Hahahahah you do? That's awesome!

[falco]

does anybody here have customized license plates the same as their user name?

Hahahahah you do? That's awesome!

no i dont....but i think i know someone here who does.

[Partial]

hilarious! WI plates are 6 characters max, correct? or can you use 7 and not use a hyphen?

[falco]

hilarious! WI plates are 6 characters max, correct? or can you use 7 and not use a hyphen?

Wisconsin allows 7 without the hyphen.

I'm not saying who it is either, but it was quite a shock to see; that or a strange coincidence.

[Partial]

hilarious! WI plates are 6 characters max, correct? or can you use 7 and not use a hyphen?

Wisconsin allows 7 without the hyphen.

I'm not saying who it is either, but it was quite a shock to see; that or a strange coincidence.

Hmmm, I have an idea, what is a big city you live around?

[falco]

Partial;

greater Wausau area. But I don't want to say anymore; I don't want to violate anyone's privacy (even though its really not).

I'm sure the person knows who they are. If they want to admit it they can... :shock:

[retailguy]

Thats why I try to not bash him, cuz he did throw all the chips on the table and try to win it now. For that I cant hate on him but everyone knew it was time for a change.

Madtown, you raised a great point. In most of life, those who "put it all on the table" are regarded with some respect, whether they win or lose. Sherm's got almost NONE of that, and for me, that's disappointing.

As for the change, I agree, because fandom would have revolted had Harlan not hired TT in 2005. Fandom would probably not have revolted in 2006 if TT had not fired Sherman. It will be interesting to see if "fandom" accords McCarthy the same/less/more latitude. I, for one, will be watching.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Partial;

greater Wausau area. But I don't want to say anymore; I don't want to violate anyone's privacy (even though its really not).

I'm sure the person knows who they are. If they want to admit it they can... :shock:

What the hell are you two talking about?

[digitaldean]

I still remember draft day in 04. Was watching it with a buddy of mine who's a diehard Cowboys fan.

When i saw GB traded up for a *&^$#@ punter I just about lost it. It does kind of have to rank with Wolf's pick near end of his career of Ferguson over Chambers. :evil:

What makes it worse, there was a player that MIGHT have been helpful only 2 picks after Sander was picked.... Matt Schaub - QB - Virginia (picked by Atlanta).

[mraynrand]

Walker did not work out well. We got a good year and a half out of him, and a 2nd round pick in return. The rest of his time here was spent A) sucking B) in rehab or C) sulking.

Sherman didn't injure him and Shreman wasn't responsible for him in 2005.

Yeah, you can't blame Shermy on that.

I try to blame Sherman for everything, including global warming and an unstable Middle East.

He's at least responsible for his own unstable middle. BTW, I laugh every time the 'napping Shermy' pic comes up. I think I'll put it up as wallpaper on my PC.

[mraynrand]

I still remember draft day in 04. Was watching it with a buddy of mine who's a diehard Cowboys fan.

When i saw GB traded up for a *&^$#@ punter I just about lost it. It does kind of have to rank with Wolf's pick near end of his career of Ferguson over Chambers. :evil:

What makes it worse, there was a player that MIGHT have been helpful only 2 picks after Sander was picked.... Matt Schaub - QB - Virginia (picked by Atlanta).

It was an absurd pick, no question.

[retailguy]

Too bad Sander didn't go to Michigan. Then, bulldog could start posts about how underrated Sander really is. Sander's blows. He's an embarrassment to Ohio State, but not the embarrassment that Mo Clarett is.

It's 50/50 on whether Ryan punts come the regular season.


Harvey,

This quote from Sander's Bio on Packers.com about his days at Ohio State:

"In 29 games, he punted 125 times for 5,270 yards ... His 42.2-yard average ranks third on the school's career-record list, topped only by Tom Skladany (42.7 avg., 1973-76) and Tom Tupa (44.7 avg., 1984-87)."


You can bitch all you want about whether or not he should have been a third round pick (incidentally, Sander didn't control that....), but implying that he shouldn't have had an opportunity to kick professionally is not reasonable. Why didn't he succeed? Who knows, but you can't bash anyone for not giving him a try.

He'll get another shot, my guess is Kansas City.... But, we'll see.

[RashanGary]

God,

Sherman had the worste run of draft picks imaginable. I would wish bad things on him and his family, but I knwo that is taking it too far. I thought he was OK as a coach, but the guy needed to get canned just for what he did to the organization as a GM.

I understand why he did it. I just think him doing it was completely stupid and while I can rationalize why a murderer killed his wife, I just can't agree with the rational. The rational was just plain stupid and that picture of Sherman sleeping at the combine is a perfect symbol of his time on the job.

Thank you Ted Thompson for coming to GB and unseating that freaking loser. There really is a Packer god and he put Mike Sherman in Lambeau to show us what he's capable of doing. He can take it all away with the creation of one fat pear shaped loser. I respect you oh lord Packergod. We will never doubt your power again.

Fuck You, Mike Sherman. Fuck You.

[b bulldog]

Are you praying to Brett again?

[woodbuck27]

Partial;

greater Wausau area. But I don't want to say anymore; I don't want to violate anyone's privacy (even though its really not).

I'm sure the person knows who they are. If they want to admit it they can... :shock:

falco !?:

Do YOU re-call all the spin, when Jon Ryan first came into Green Bay for that try out?

Way back in February? That seems so long ago in Off Season time. :mrgreen:

GO PACKERS ! HOLD THE FAITH PACKER FANS !!!

[retailguy]

Fuck You, Mike Sherman. Fuck You.



Nice. Nice.....

[woodbuck27]

God,

Sherman had the worste run of draft picks imaginable. I would wish bad things on him and his family, but I knwo that is taking it too far. I thought he was OK as a coach, but the guy needed to get canned just for what he did to the organization as a GM.

I understand why he did it. I just think him doing it was completely stupid and while I can rationalize why a murderer killed his wife, I just can't agree with the rational. The rational was just plain stupid and that picture of Sherman sleeping at the combine is a perfect symbol of his time on the job.

Thank you Ted Thompson for coming to GB and unseating that freaking loser. There really is a Packer god and he put Mike Sherman in Lambeau to show us what he's capable of doing. He can take it all away with the creation of one fat pear shaped loser. I respect you oh lord Packergod. We will never doubt your power again.

Fuck You, Mike Sherman. Fuck You.

Ahhhh "the SHAME - on YOU GregJennings", and it's YOU, to comment on emotion's

That is the most pathetic post I've ever read on PACKERRATS !!!! The WORST. ABSOLUTELY.

Look in the mirror Sir, examine - STUPID. If you, can't forgive stupidity......

I leave you GregJennings with this:

" Dignity consists not in possessing honors, but in the consciousness
that we deserve them " ...... Aristotle

Good Luck. Man......

Mike Sherman.... a FINE MAN !!

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Mike Sherman was as idiot, but he's gone. It's time to forgive and forget.

[Kiwon]

I'm a Sherman supporter, but I must agree that he completely whiffed on B.J. Sander.

[the_idle_threat]

Happy about the move.

Guess the BJ era is over. No more BJ. What's going to happen to the BJ Fan Club that was started a very long time ago? I mean, who doesn't like a BJ? I guess TT doesn't like a BJ. :lol:



I think TT just doesn't like a BJ from Sherman. :twisted:

[Guiness]

Somehow, two topics re: Sherman got mixed together - he put all his chips on the table in an effort to bring home a Super Bowl, and he traded up to draft a punter in the third round.

I'm not sure what these two things have to do with each other. I'm fine with him trying to win it all, at a cost to the franchise mid-term. Really, we only ended up in a bad cap position for one year (not cap hell for 3...)

But drafting the punter had nothing to do with trying to win it all. It was just a bad decision!

However, I think BJ will land on his feet (at least temporarily) somewhere. Other teams have to look at him, and think there's a possibility there somewhere. I'm guessing he's picked up by the end of the week.

[Patler]

It is not uncommon for punters to bounce around for 3 or 4 years before getting established in the NFL. Sander could still end up with a career as a punter.

[woodbuck27]

It is not uncommon for punters to bounce around for 3 or 4 years before getting established in the NFL. Sander could still end up with a career as a punter.

I'm wondering what his Degree and Major was in College?

Come to Canada and learn how to punt in a cold weather stadium. :mrgreen:

[retailguy]

It is not uncommon for punters to bounce around for 3 or 4 years before getting established in the NFL. Sander could still end up with a career as a punter.

I'm wondering what his Degree and Major was in College?

Come to Canada and learn how to punt in a cold weather stadium. :mrgreen:


Major was "turf science". I don't think that encompasses tundra... :wink:

[Merlin]

I can't blame Sherman for picking up Sander. He won the Ray Guy award and the 2004 draft was short of punters. What is Sherman's fault is that after the 2004 preseason, it was obvious that Sander couldn't cut it. He should have let him go and cut his losses.

John Ryan, wow. He is going to be good. I was at the Packer family night watching him warm up. He was punting from the 25 and dropping the ball at the 3. Get his hang time up there a little more and lookout. He has touch and a leg. Now he just needs experience.

[woodbuck27]

TUE., AUG 22, 2006 - 2:12 AM

Comment woodbuck27:

For what it may be worth to you. Alot of this article may be similiar to others but it's interesting I find to get different writers takes to learn of that writer. Also - some interesting quotes here.

the Article follows;


Packers: Green Bay punts on Sander

JASON WILDE
608-252-6176
jwilde@madison.com

GREEN BAY - Midway through practice one day late last week, B.J. Sander emerged from the Don Hutson Center, greeting a familiar face on the sideline with a smile and a friendly how's-it-going? salutation.

When the same question was asked in kind, Sander said, "Well, I'm still here."

Not anymore.

Cutting ties with one of the most controversial draft picks in recent team history, the Green Bay Packers released the punter Monday in a move that even his competition had to admit was surprising in its timing.

In Saturday night's preseason victory over Atlanta, Sander took the first punt and boomed a picture-perfect 61-yarder with 5.1 seconds of hang time. When Jon Ryan's turn came, the CFL import dropped the snap in his end zone and had to scramble to get away a 42-yard desperation kick to avoid disaster.

But rather than the turn of events tightening up the competition between the two, general manager Ted Thompson decided to let Ryan prove himself, much like when Thompson cut veteran Billy Cundiff Thursday to give the kicking job to unproven Dave Rayner.

"I was just thinking,

'Let's put them out there and let's see what we've got,' rather than go through the last two preseason games where everybody's splitting kicks," Thompson said.

"When you're the sole guy, you're in the glaring spotlight.

"(Ryan and Rayner) haven't had NFL experience like that, and in order to decide if they're going to be the guys, we need to put them in the spotlight and see how they perform. It'll be interesting to watch them go through this experience."

That spotlight will shine on Ryan Monday in Cincinnati - ironically Sander's hometown - when the Packers face the Bengals on "Monday Night Football." Ryan admitted he was surprised Sander was released.

"To be honest, after Saturday's game, which was not my best game with dropping the snap, I was not really expecting that today," said Ryan, who has averaged 45.4 gross and 39.8 net yards on his five preseason punts, compared to Sander's 40.6- and 34.8-yard averages.

"For right now, I'm the guy. But by no means do I have the spot yet. There's a lot of punters out there. I still have to prove myself, I still have to earn the job."

Special teams coordinator Mike Stock said he feels Ryan has "a tremendous upside, great potential, and we're going to see if he can seize the moment."

Asked what Ryan must do to seize the moment, Stock said, "First of all, he's going to have to catch the ball and punt it. And second of all, he's going to have to show his distance and hang time. He's going to have to be a consistent performer."

That's something Sander was never able to be.

Taken in the third round of the 2004 draft by former coach/GM Mike Sherman, Sander was so bad his first training camp the team was forced to sign journeyman Bryan Barker, despite having given Sander a four-year, $1.96 million contract and $583,000 signing bonus.

Last year, Sander ranked 30th in the NFL in gross average (39.2 yards) and 31st in net average (33.9 yards), as his numbers worsened late in the year as the weather became a factor. He missed the final two games after he suffered an impact fracture at the top of the tibia in his left (kicking) leg when he was hit in the Dec. 19 game at Baltimore.

Attempts to reach Sander Monday were unsuccessful. But he had to have been blindsided by the news, given what he said in an interview last Thursday.

Asked what his advantage was over Ryan, Sander said,

"The experience I bring, and when I go out there, you know what I'm going to give you - I'm going to give you that 40- to 45-yard kick and it's going to be hung up in the air.

"Jon's got a huge leg. There's no doubt about that. But if you kick the ball 65 yards, your coverage team has to cover that. If you don't hit the ball 65 yards with a 5.0 (hang time), you're giving that return man an awful long time back there."

Asked if all the scrutiny he faced his first two years steeled him for the competition with Ryan, Sander said,

"I think so. I know what it's all about, I've been here, I've seen what goes on and I know what it takes to be here. I just go out and do my thing and let the guys upstairs make their decision.

"But without a doubt, whether it's here or somewhere else, I know I have the talent to be here, whether or not the (Packers) front office thinks that."

[woodbuck27]

Posted August 22, 2006

Chris Havel column: Sherman whiffed in 2004's 3rd round


By Chris Havel

Joey Thomas, Donnell Washington and B.J. Sander, also known as Strike One, Strike Two and Strike Three, share a dubious place in Packers history.

The cornerback, nose tackle and punter — and I use those titles loosely — might represent the single-worst third round in the team's 70 years of drafts.

Sander, the final (ugh!) leg of this hapless trio, was released on Monday.

It isn't Sander's fault that ex-Packers coach and General Manager Mike Sherman traded up to select him in the third round of the 2004 draft. What was he supposed to do? Hang up when the Packers called prematurely?

Then again, Sander never realized his potential or capitalized on his opportunity, and for that, he has no one to blame but himself.

It is one thing to lose out to a punter that is consistently booming 60-yard moon shots. It is another to lose out to a guy that mishandled a snap in the end zone during the most recent preseason game. In Jon Ryan's defense, the former Winnipeg Blue Bomber had the good sense to pick up the ball, collect his thoughts and get off a 42-yard punt. Sander was pressed to get off a 42-yarder with a perfect snap and a stiff tailwind.

Sander's release nudges the Packers another step closer to the end of an error.

It leaves just nine of 27 Sherman draft picks on the roster.

Whereas Sherman conducted four of the past six Packers drafts, former General Manager Ron Wolf hasn't conducted a draft in six years. Still, Wolf has twice as many of his draft picks (six to three) in the starting lineup.

Wolf selected William Henderson, Donald Driver, Bubba Franks, Chad Clifton, Mark Tauscher and Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila. Sherman selected Aaron Kampman, Nick Barnett and Scott Wells.

Whereas one tremendous third round helped lay the groundwork for the Packers' Super Bowl teams in the mid-1990s, a horrendous third round set the team back for years.

In 1995, the Packers selected Darius Holland, William Henderson, Brian Williams and Antonio Freeman in the third round. Holland was a stiff, but the others were key cogs on tremendous teams.

As awesome as the 1995 third round was, the 2004 third round was awful.

Thomas, an intelligent kid from Montana State, was too smart for his own good. He spent too much time second-guessing the coaching staff and quarreling with Ahmad Carroll and not enough time in the weight room.

Washington, a slug from Clemson, showed fleeting interest in football and even less in hard work. He was either too injured, too out of shape or too inept to practice.

Sander is another story.

The Packers drafted him to be the guy, but he ended up simply being a guy, and definitely nothing resembling Ray Guy.

My advice to Sander is to make the most of the next chance. It might be the last. My advice to the Packers is to keep looking for someone to compete with Ryan. He is the only punter on the roster, but it feels like this is far from settled.

Chris Havel can be reached by voice mail at (920) 431-8586 or by e-mail at chavel@greenbay.gannett

[red]

harvel could have taken that one step further

if sherman started drafting in 2001 he had a total of 7 third round selections

if he started picking in 2002 he had 5 3rd round selections

out of those picks ONE, is still on the roster. kenny peterson

so he was either 1/7 in 4 years

or 1/5 in 3 years

both are bad and they don't even take into account all the other picks that went into trading up to get those 3rd round picks.

[mraynrand]

"Whereas Sherman conducted four of the past six Packers drafts, former General Manager Ron Wolf hasn't conducted a draft in six years."

---

Ron Wolf was in charge in 2001. Every article that year said exactly the same thing - Sherman was learning from Wolf in his final draft; Sherman of course was giving input, but the decisions were up to Wolf. Yet, people continually get this wrong. I wonder if old Ron Wolf, realizeing what an absolute stinker the 2001 draft was (not to mention the 1999 draft) is trying to spin it so he doesn't have to take the blame. For the record, Wolf's final draft was 2001. Sherman was responsinble for 2002,3, and 4.

Wolf's last three round one picks were Vonnie Holliday, Antuan Edwards, and Jamal Reynolds. Sherman's three round one picks were Javon Walker, Nick Barnett, and Ahmad Carroll.

[red]

"Whereas Sherman conducted four of the past six Packers drafts, former General Manager Ron Wolf hasn't conducted a draft in six years."

---

Ron Wolf was in charge in 2001. Every article that year said exactly the same thing - Sherman was learning from Wolf in his final draft; Sherman of course was giving input, but the decisions were up to Wolf. Yet, people continually get this wrong. I wonder if old Ron Wolf, realizeing what an absolute stinker the 2001 draft was (not to mention the 1999 draft) is trying to spin it so he doesn't have to take the blame. For the record, Wolf's final draft was 2001. Sherman was responsinble for 2002,3, and 4.

Wolf's last three round one picks were Vonnie Holliday, Antuan Edwards, and Jamal Reynolds. Sherman's three round one picks were Javon Walker, Nick Barnett, and Ahmad Carroll.

i just posted an article in another thread that said sherman had taken over the gm duties and wolf agreed to stay on to assist him in the draft

it was written by bob mcginn feb 4th of this year.

its almost one big giant interview with wolf about hasselbeck

heres the telling line

"Wolf stepped down in February 2001 but agreed to assist Mike Sherman through the draft"

------------------------

if sherman did give total control of that draft to wolf, even though the line above shoots that down, ten that would have been shermans first huge blunder as a GM.

if you are the GM you don't give control of the draft over to the guy on his way out the door. the texans did that same thing this year, letting their soon to be good old gm do the draft. he baffled the world and took mario williams instead of maybe the greatest college player of all time and a guy with maybe the most potential we've ever seen.

you just don't do it

[HarveyWallbangers]

Wolf was helping him out, but from what I remember it was Sherman's final call. Wolf probably set up the board and gave Sherman tips, but my understanding was that Sherman gave the okay on trades and things like that.

[Patler]

harvel could have taken that one step further

if sherman started drafting in 2001 he had a total of 7 third round selections

if he started picking in 2002 he had 5 3rd round selections

out of those picks ONE, is still on the roster. kenny peterson

so he was either 1/7 in 4 years

or 1/5 in 3 years

both are bad and they don't even take into account all the other picks that went into trading up to get those 3rd round picks.

...and there is a relatively good chance that it will become 0/7 in 4 years or 0/5 in 3 years by the time the final cuts are made. Peterson could be on his way out, too.

[woodbuck27]

harvel could have taken that one step further

if sherman started drafting in 2001 he had a total of 7 third round selections

if he started picking in 2002 he had 5 3rd round selections

out of those picks ONE, is still on the roster. kenny peterson

so he was either 1/7 in 4 years

or 1/5 in 3 years

both are bad and they don't even take into account all the other picks that went into trading up to get those 3rd round picks.

Yup !!

I believe we recover though. Maybe quicker than I once thought.

I think....We need a solid season this.... so some vet's remain in 2007.

Another year of experience for Nick Collins and DE Montgomery,and we get S Marviel Underwood back ( Ahhhh that DAM knee injury very tornup, but he has lots of time to Re-hab it following medicle techniques that are better today.

Guard > OT Junius Coston and/or Will Whitticker will see 2006.

A little concerned for M. Hawkins and his injuries, same goes with Patrick Dendy (Banged up alot those two).

We are a player short of real depth at CB (maybe Jason Horton will be OK through TC into 2006?) . We have a new face in TC and he had a pick... yesterday. So much happening, haha.

Someone.... will step up at CB.

GO PACKERS ! FAITH FOR 2006 and BEYOND !!

[Partial]

harvel could have taken that one step further

if sherman started drafting in 2001 he had a total of 7 third round selections

if he started picking in 2002 he had 5 3rd round selections

out of those picks ONE, is still on the roster. kenny peterson

so he was either 1/7 in 4 years

or 1/5 in 3 years

both are bad and they don't even take into account all the other picks that went into trading up to get those 3rd round picks.

...and there is a relatively good chance that it will become 0/7 in 4 years or 0/5 in 3 years by the time the final cuts are made. Peterson could be on his way out, too.

Which is truly ridiculous. Those should be really awesome back-ups by now. Instead, none of on the roster!

[Patler]

harvel could have taken that one step further

if sherman started drafting in 2001 he had a total of 7 third round selections
if he started picking in 2002 he had 5 3rd round selections
out of those picks ONE, is still on the roster. kenny peterson
so he was either 1/7 in 4 years
or 1/5 in 3 years
both are bad and they don't even take into account all the other picks that went into trading up to get those 3rd round picks.

...and there is a relatively good chance that it will become 0/7 in 4 years or 0/5 in 3 years by the time the final cuts are made. Peterson could be on his way out, too.

Which is truly ridiculous. Those should be really awesome back-ups by now. Instead, none of on the roster!

What makes it even worse is that:

he drafted Anderson in 2002 with his regular pick in the 3rd
he traded a 3rd and 4th to move up for Peterson in 2003
he traded his 2nd for a 3rd (Thomas) and a 4th in 2004
he traded his 3rd and his 4th to move up for Washington
he traded the 4th he got above and his 5th to move up for Sander

So his total investment in the 5 "third round" players REALLY was:
his 3rd in 2002
his 3rd and 4th in 2003
his 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th in 2004

[woodbuck27]

harvel could have taken that one step further

if sherman started drafting in 2001 he had a total of 7 third round selections

if he started picking in 2002 he had 5 3rd round selections

out of those picks ONE, is still on the roster. kenny peterson

so he was either 1/7 in 4 years

or 1/5 in 3 years

both are bad and they don't even take into account all the other picks that went into trading up to get those 3rd round picks.

...and there is a relatively good chance that it will become 0/7 in 4 years or 0/5 in 3 years by the time the final cuts are made. Peterson could be on his way out, too.

"out of those picks ONE, is still on the roster. kenny peterson"

Wondering if his Home is on "the market". :mrgreen:

GO PACK GO ! HOPE FOR 2006 and BEYOND FANS !!

[Zool]

harvel could have taken that one step further

if sherman started drafting in 2001 he had a total of 7 third round selections
if he started picking in 2002 he had 5 3rd round selections
out of those picks ONE, is still on the roster. kenny peterson
so he was either 1/7 in 4 years
or 1/5 in 3 years
both are bad and they don't even take into account all the other picks that went into trading up to get those 3rd round picks.

...and there is a relatively good chance that it will become 0/7 in 4 years or 0/5 in 3 years by the time the final cuts are made. Peterson could be on his way out, too.

Which is truly ridiculous. Those should be really awesome back-ups by now. Instead, none of on the roster!

What makes it even worse is that:

he drafted Anderson in 2002 with his regular pick in the 3rd
he traded a 3rd and 4th to move up for Peterson in 2003
he traded his 2nd for a 3rd (Thomas) and a 4th in 2004
he traded his 3rd and his 4th to move up for Washington
he traded the 4th he got above and his 5th to move up for Sander

So his total investment in the 5 "third round" players REALLY was:
his 3rd in 2002
his 3rd and 4th in 2003
his 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th in 2004

Cmon now, he stockpiled 4 7th round picks in '03 from all that manuvering. Oh and compensatory picks.

[Patler]

harvel could have taken that one step further

if sherman started drafting in 2001 he had a total of 7 third round selections
if he started picking in 2002 he had 5 3rd round selections
out of those picks ONE, is still on the roster. kenny peterson
so he was either 1/7 in 4 years
or 1/5 in 3 years
both are bad and they don't even take into account all the other picks that went into trading up to get those 3rd round picks.

...and there is a relatively good chance that it will become 0/7 in 4 years or 0/5 in 3 years by the time the final cuts are made. Peterson could be on his way out, too.

Which is truly ridiculous. Those should be really awesome back-ups by now. Instead, none of on the roster!

What makes it even worse is that:

he drafted Anderson in 2002 with his regular pick in the 3rd
he traded a 3rd and 4th to move up for Peterson in 2003
he traded his 2nd for a 3rd (Thomas) and a 4th in 2004
he traded his 3rd and his 4th to move up for Washington
he traded the 4th he got above and his 5th to move up for Sander

So his total investment in the 5 "third round" players REALLY was:
his 3rd in 2002
his 3rd and 4th in 2003
his 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th in 2004

Cmon now, he stockpiled 4 7th round picks in '03 from all that manuvering. Oh and compensatory picks.

I know your kidding, but the rest of the 2003 draft was also interesting.

He traded a 5th (#165) and a 6th (#203) to move upt to #147 to draft James Lee.

He traded another 5th (#185) and a 7th (#244) to move to #166 to draft Hunter Hillenmeyer. Good pick, but bad handling of the player afterward!

Then, he traded his 6th in 2004 for Philly's 7th in 2003 (#245) to draft Chris Johnson. Why this was necessary when he already had compensatory picks at #253, #256 and #257 is more than I can understand! Was Johnson that much of a prospect?

[red]

yeah, theres the draft picks i mentioned. all those picks, and so little to show for it.

THAT is one of the main reasons we were so bad last year, no depth at all through the draft for those 3 years