Pats D rankings in 01(24),03(7),04(10)

[b bulldog]

Funny, it looks to me that only one of these guys needed a number one ranked D to win a Super Bowl and that player also needed a out of this world performance from it's special teams to get the job done. :D The 96 Packers had the number one D in the NFL! Thanks for the supporting my assertion that Brady doesn't need a number one D like Favre does to win a championship. One more thing, in the big games, who won the MVP and who never did? Please respond and if Brady needs to win every playoff game in order to be better than Brett, get real! I'll compare Brady's Denver game to Brett's Rams,Vikings,Falcons game anytime.

[b bulldog]

No takers????????

[falco]

One thread about this wasn't enough???

Way to act like a troll.

[Partial]

Bulldog, take it to your other thread.

[b bulldog]

Just wanted someone to explain how it could be that Brady, who won 2 Super Bowl MVP's, with the inferior D's, needs a great D to win when Brett had the GREAT D AND S.T. and wasn't named MVP, how he isn't labeled as the one who really needed the D and ST's help?

[BallHawk]

There D's rank was lower than how they really played. Like the Packers season, we didn't play as well as our ranking suggested.

[b bulldog]

What was that, the Packers D was awesome!

[b bulldog]

I forgot, good try :lol:

[Tony Oday]

Did we sign Brady?

THEN WHO CARES!!!!!!!

When is the last time you say Brady take over a game?

I remember A cast of characters from the Pats that made the big play and brady played like his vanilla self. Thats not bad but I just dont see him as a dominate QB...

[TPF]

There D's rank was lower than how they really played. Like the Packers season, we didn't play as well as our ranking suggested.

Our pass defense was number 1 and we were cleary not that. Our defense as a hole was 11 and I think you could argue that too.

[Scott Campbell]

One thread about this wasn't enough???

Way to act like a troll.


This is a good point. Mad, can we set Bulldog up in his own Brady Shine Room outside the Packers Forum?

I promise to go there and read all his posts.

:shock:

[MadtownPacker]

1st Superbowl season

Brady (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/187741)

2001 (15 games played, 14 games started)

413 Att
264 Comp
63.9%
2843 YDs
18 TDs
12 INTs
86.5 Rating

Favre (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1028)

1996

543 Att
325 Comp
59.9%
3899 YDs
39 TDs
13 INTs
95.8 Rating




---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wonder if Favre's 39 TDs helped make things easier for the D?

[b bulldog]

Please explain how Brady's D who averaged a bit better than average during his 3, count them 3 Super Bowls, made all the plays or was most responsible for the Pats getting and winning the big game?

[RashanGary]

Yeah, and the Packers D was the 7th best in the league.

It's getting old bulldog. It's getting old.

Brady in inferior. Get used to it. :wink:

[BallHawk]

If Vinateri misses those two GW kicks and the other teams end up winning, than Brady is just another good QB. Is Brady a good QB? Yes. Is he better than Brett Favre in his prime? No.

[b bulldog]

Actually the Packers D was 1 in points allowed, first team in over 30 years to have most points scored and fewest points allowed.

[b bulldog]

If Desmond Howard doesn't perform his miracles on Special Teams the Packers don't even make the Super Bowl although maybe then they would have beaten Denver in 97.

[MadtownPacker]

Please explain how Brady's D who averaged a bit better than average during his 3, count them 3 Super Bowls, made all the plays or was most responsible for the Pats getting and winning the big game?The referees where most responsible for him getting to the first one. Even made a nice new rules to justify it. Talk about apologist.

[b bulldog]

I actually agree with that, the Raiders should have won the game, so sorry, the tag doesn't fit.

[MadtownPacker]

I was talking about the refs. I would lean more towards calling you "ungrateful bastard" instead of "apologist".

[b bulldog]

Name calling always shows maturity!

[MadtownPacker]

WHat can I say, Im still young but who's name calling? You are actually gonna admit you are grateful to have seen a Pack SB victory? Unless your one of the older guys who recalls the 60s I have to wonder if you didnt enjoy seeing the 2001,02,& 04 SBs more.

[b bulldog]

I went to the airport to welcome back the team after upsetting the niners, I went to Lambeau and watched the Carolina game from out side the stadium, I attended the "welcome back to titletown at Lambeau" I cried like a baby when the beat Carolina but this organization is so much more than the second or third best player it ever had and it gets sickening to hear all the crap about how great brett has looked after the Falcon game after he has had a bad camp. He did look good aginst Atlanta and San Diego but onxce3 the season starts and if he falters, it will be more of the same crap such as, it's all TT's fault, the Oline sucks, jennings ran the wrong route ect. ect.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Actually the Packers D was 1 in points allowed, first team in over 30 years to have most points scored and fewest points allowed.

We won the title that year, so why are you comparing the one year the Packers defense was mint and the Pack did win the title to the Patriots defenses? How about the other years? Were any of the other Packers defenses truly as good as the Patriots defense in any of their championship years? You aren't even making sense anymore. If Favre had the best defense in the league in other years (defenses comparable to the Patriots defense in their championship runs), he would have won more titles, so what's your point?

[b bulldog]

the 97 D was real strong and the point was Brady won the better than average D's while Brett needed the leagues number one unit and Howard to pull it out. As the players said during all the White stuff, he was the main reason for GB winning the big one.

[HarveyWallbangers]

the 97 D was real strong and the point was Brady won the better than average D's while Brett needed the leagues number one unit and Howard to pull it out. As the players said during all the White stuff, he was the main reason for GB winning the big one.

You and I both know the 97 defense faded miserably at the end. It got old in a hurry.

You and I also both know yardage rankings are about as meaningful for ranking defenses as first downs allowed.

You and I both know that in two of the three years the Patriots won the title there wasn't another defense in the league that either of us would have taken over them.

[RashanGary]

John Elway
Terrell Davis
Howard Griffith
Shannon Sharpe
Ed McCaffrey
Gary Zimmerman
Mark Schlereth
Tom Nalen
Brian Habib
Tony Jones
Neil Smith
Keith Traylor
Maa Tanuvasa
Alfred Williams
John Mobley
Allen Aldridge
Bill Romanowski
Ray Crockett
Darrien Gordon
Tyrone Braxton
Steve Atwater
Tom Rouen
Jason Elam

Compare that team to the Panters, Eagles and Rams. I gaurantee you Elway alone is better than any 2 players on either of those rosters. That is not even taking into account the games best runner that year, a HOF oline, Atwater, Romanowski, Rouen, Elam, Sharpe, McCaffreay, Tralor, and a whole bunch of others who were all pretty much in thier primes. Yeah Dawkins and McNabb are pretty much the same thing.

Your arguement is so hollow bulldog. Let's not even compare the eagles to the Bronco's. That is a fucking insult to not just Elway but that entire team including the coach.

[b bulldog]

I'm talking the teams he took to the big dance and lost. Guys like Sammy Winder, Vance Johnson,Kal Mecklenburg,Rulon Jones ect.

[RashanGary]

QB's should be judged on more than just winning. If you go on superbowl wins, Dilfer is better tahn Marino. Bradshaw is better than Elway...

Please man...Please.

[fan4life]

Please explain how Brady's D who averaged a bit better than average during his 3, count them 3 Super Bowls, made all the plays or was most responsible for the Pats getting and winning the big game? They lead the league in takeaways.

[RashanGary]

They lead the league in takeaways.

Ding ding ding


Yeah and the Packers D was #7 last year.

[b bulldog]

One year wonders as Wolf even stated, don't mean much of anything. In a big game, I would take BRETT over Dilfer but I would never take him over Bradshaw. Nick, did you even know the Broncos were once coached by Dan Reeves and that they lost a bunch of Super Bowls. Please compare the roster off of those Bronco teams to what Brett had in 96 and 97.

[RashanGary]

Favre looked pretty good at 27 too.

3 LEAGUE MVP'S, 2 SUPERBOWL BIRTHS, 1 SUPERBOWL WIN, ECT....

Let's see what Brady can do over the next few years before we annoint him in Favre's class. Favre did it for a whole career. Brady has 6 years in or whatever it is.

[b bulldog]

i AGREE BUT HE HAS ALREADY DONE MORE THAN WHAT bRETT HAS DONE at 27. wHY IS HE STILL PLAYING?? To get another championship!

[RashanGary]

I like Manning better than Brady.

[RashanGary]

i AGREE BUT HE HAS ALREADY DONE MORE THAN WHAT bRETT HAS DONE at 27. wHY IS HE STILL PLAYING?? To get another championship!

Brett did it all in the first 6 years too. Let's judge brady on his whole body of work. Let's see if he's really that great becasue he should win at least 2 more if he's as good as you suggest. Or is it a team game?

[b bulldog]

Why does he need to win 5 and Brett ONLY ONE????I did say 1 correct?

[HarveyWallbangers]

Why does he need to win 5 and Brett ONLY ONE????I did say 1 correct?

Same reason Bradshaw won 4 and Aikman won 3 and aren't considered top 5 QBs. Everybody realizes they played on great teams. The Pats had the best defense in football two of those three years and great special teams. Green Bay has probably had a legit top 10 defense in three of Favre's 13 years with the team.

Bulldog thinks anybody who doesn't think Favre was primarily responsible for the 4-12 season last year is a Favre apologist.

I think most reasonable people would say Favre had a shitty year (especially after the first 6 or 7 games), but it would have been tough not to. His team had a below average defense, terrible special teams (Sander was horrible, Longwell was ordinary, and they had no return game), no running game to speak of, horrendous interior OL, horrible playmakers with Javon, Murphy, Ferguson, Franks, Green, and Da Poop all missing good chunks of the year.

Brady had his first really god awful playoff game in 2005. We'll see what happens in the future.

[b bulldog]

He had maybe 4 good games all season but I won't convince you otherwise so we'll just see how he does this year. Please everyone, don't blaME THE LINE THOUGH BECAUSE Brett had a great line for three years and had terrible home/away playoff losses. That fact is undisputable and to dispute it just shows excuse making.

[HarveyWallbangers]

What happens if Brady struggles in his next couple of playoff games like he did this year? Will that take away from the QB he's been up to this point?

[b bulldog]

IMO yes, if he plays lousey and is labeled as one of the main reasons for the Pats loss, I do think it is a negative. You can't win them all but I don't think you should look awful in the last handful either. Just my opinion.

[Bretsky]

Just wanted someone to explain how it could be that Brady, who won 2 Super Bowl MVP's, with the inferior D's, needs a great D to win when Brett had the GREAT D AND S.T. and wasn't named MVP, how he isn't labeled as the one who really needed the D and ST's help?

HOW DO YOU KNOW HE NEEDED THE ST HELP TO WIN ?

EVERY TEAM NEEDS D AND YOU ARE FOOLING YOURSELF BY INGORING THE DOMINANCE OF NEW ENGLAND'S D WHILE POINTING OUT THE DOMINANCE OF GREEN BAY'S.

THE PACKERS WOULD HAVE WON THAT SUPER BOWL WITHOUT DESMOND HOWARD. BUT HE MADE IT EASIER

[b bulldog]

I don't know if they would have locked up home field without Howard. This we will never know so it doesn't pay to argue about it. Des and Reggie did put the game away, not the QB.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Brady goes 16 for 27 for 145 yards and 1 TD and 0 interceptions and wins the Super Bowl MVP in 2002.

Meanwhile, Favre goes 14 for 27 for 246 yards and 3 TDs (2 passing, 1 rushing) and 0 interceptions in 1997.

Yet bulldog looks to demean Favre's impact on the game. Who is the hater/apologist?

[Bretsky]

I don't know if they would have locked up home field without Howard. This we will never know so it doesn't pay to argue about it. Des and Reggie did put the game away, not the QB.

THIS was your comment and I thought it was jaded bunk

"when Brett had the GREAT D AND S.T. and wasn't named MVP, how he isn't labeled as the one who really needed the D and ST's help?""


THE BOTTOM LINE IS YOU ARE CREATING ARGUMENTS THAT ARE SO GENERAL (your comment about home field/Favres need for ST help) AND OPEN .....AND LACK SUPPORT.

THESE GENERAL ARGUMENTS ARE SOMETIMES W/O MERIT AND SHOW YOUR OVERWHELMING BIAS AGAINST A GREAT PLAYER YOU ACTUALLY CLAIM TO CHEER FOR.

[b bulldog]

the last throw when the chips were on the table to Chewey wasw a terrible throw and even Max and Jim were wondering aloud, "who was he throwing to" Find the broadcast of the game and you'll find it.

[Bretsky]

Brady goes 16 for 27 for 145 yards and 1 TD and 0 interceptions and wins the Super Bowl MVP in 2002.

Meanwhile, Favre goes 14 for 27 for 246 yards and 3 TDs (2 passing, 1 rushing) and 0 interceptions in 1997.

Yet bulldog looks to demean Favre's impact on the game. Who is the hater/apologist?


I've always thought Favre should have been the MVP of that game. But who cares; he played a great clutch game in the Super Bowl. The fact that he was not named MVP means ZERO. Green Bay wins that Super Bowl with Antonio Chatman returning punts.

[b bulldog]

Sorry B but as the guys who were at the 92 Packer HOF said, they don't'win that game without Reggie and Desmand. Sean Jones was the one who said it.

[Bretsky]

the last throw when the chips were on the table to Chewey wasw a terrible throw and even Max and Jim were wondering aloud, "who was he throwing to" Find the broadcast of the game and you'll find it.

That was a bad throw and a bad decision.

Two throws before that Freeman dropped a pass that would have given GB a First Down and probably a TD with the defender falling.

Do you remember that and give Favre credit for a great clutch pass on that one or is your memory selective ?

[HarveyWallbangers]

the last throw when the chips were on the table to Chewey wasw a terrible throw and even Max and Jim were wondering aloud, "who was he throwing to" Find the broadcast of the game and you'll find it.

It happens. If the refs hadn't screwed the call against the Raiders, people would be wondering why the hell Brady didn't hang onto the ball in a big moment like that. Even Joe Montana had bad playoff games. Hell, Marino had a bunch of them at the end of his career.

[Bretsky]

Sorry B but as the guys who were at the 92 Packer HOF said, they don't'win that game without Reggie and Desmand. Sean Jones was the one who said it.


I won't argue #92. I think we win without the special teams return. Evidence of NE's ability, or lack of it, to shut down GB would support me.

B

[b bulldog]

I agree but the problem with Brett is that his bad games outway his few good playoff games since the 97 game. Facts are facts here.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Do you remember that and give Favre credit for a great clutch pass on that one or is your memory selective ?

Good point. A laser right into the hands of Freeman. I should know. I just watched it--as Bretsky sent me the tape a week or two ago.

[GBRulz]

Do you remember that and give Favre credit for a great clutch pass on that one or is your memory selective ?

Good point. A laser right into the hands of Freeman. I should know. I just watched it--as Bretsky sent me the tape a week or two ago.

BAD MEMORIES

[b bulldog]

tHE SECOND HALF THEY CLEARLY HAD MOMENTUM AND Bellichek at halftime made adjustments and clamped down on the O. I think the return and the three sacks were what won the game.

[b bulldog]

The 97 game which I meant was the 98 Super Bowl which is linked to the 97 season. The game they lost.

[Bretsky]

Do you remember that and give Favre credit for a great clutch pass on that one or is your memory selective ?

Good point. A laser right into the hands of Freeman. I should know. I just watched it--as Bretsky sent me the tape a week or two ago.

BAD MEMORIES


Yes, talk about friends wanting to see you happy; my former roommate from NY sent me that tape documenting the Bronco Super Bowl loss followed by the Niners game where Jerry Rice fumbles and TO makes the great play :sad:



B

[RashanGary]

I've wathed Brady. I've watched Favre. Based on my eyes, and the surrounding treams, I believe Favre was the better QB. Favre has more all time wins, more TD's, more yards than all QB's but one. Brady played on a good team and was a good QB.

Taht is my view. Brady is damn good, but not on Favre's level IMHO.

[b bulldog]

Wow, thats a revelation. A Packer fan thinking Brett is the best! Sorry to daog you Nick but that is what is always said on here. Brett's one win came with a much better D than Brady ever had but yet Bready still needs a D to win. Did I mention Haward and the fact that BRETT WASN'T EVEN NAMED mvp. By the way, Mario looked real good against the Rams the other night. I saw the first quarter and a half and he drew two false starts,had a batted pass, a tfl and three hurries. He is going to be awesome in the near future.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I've wathed Brady. I've watched Favre. Based on my eyes, and the surrounding treams, I believe Favre was the better QB. Favre has more all time wins, more TD's, more yards than all QB's but one. Brady played on a good team and was a good QB.

Taht is my view. Brady is damn good, but not on Favre's level IMHO.

Favre apologist.

[GBRulz]

Do you remember that and give Favre credit for a great clutch pass on that one or is your memory selective ?

Good point. A laser right into the hands of Freeman. I should know. I just watched it--as Bretsky sent me the tape a week or two ago.

BAD MEMORIES


Yes, talk about friends wanting to see you happy; my former roommate from NY sent me that tape documenting the Bronco Super Bowl loss followed by the Niners game where Jerry Rice fumbles and TO makes the great play :sad:



B

and it was your duty to pass it on?

[Bretsky]

Wow, thats a revelation. A Packer fan thinking Brett is the best! Sorry to daog you Nick but that is what is always said on here. Brett's one win came with a much better D than Brady ever had but yet Bready still needs a D to win. Did I mention Haward and the fact that BRETT WASN'T EVEN NAMED mvp. By the way, Mario looked real good against the Rams the other night. I saw the first quarter and a half and he drew two false starts,had a batted pass, a tfl and three hurries. He is going to be awesome in the near future.

I DONT' UNDERSTAND WHY IT IS SO IMPORTANT, OR MATTERS AT ALL

THAT FAVRE IS NOT THE MVP OF THE SUPER BOWL ?

[GBRulz]

How effin funny is that when you put such an emphasis on our ST and how without Howard, Brett may not have a ring at all.

Now, let's look at Brady.... without the ref giving him one game, plus Vinny's leg on numerous occassions.....Brady has zero rings. And because he has no rings, he's not a great Qb because greatness is determined by championships.

remind me again how many times Brady has been voted most valuable player to his own team? yeah...that's what I thought.

[b bulldog]

He wasn't the player most valuable in the game. he was least accountable for the W between himself,Desmond and Reggie imo. That;'s all, I just thinkm in big games, your big studs carry the team to a W. He did play well in that game though but we disagree on who was significant on getting them there.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I DONT' UNDERSTAND WHY IT IS SO IMPORTANT, OR MATTERS AT ALL

THAT FAVRE IS NOT THE MVP OF THE SUPER BOWL ?

Especially since he played better than Brady did when he won his first Super Bowl MVP.

[Bretsky]

Do you remember that and give Favre credit for a great clutch pass on that one or is your memory selective ?

Good point. A laser right into the hands of Freeman. I should know. I just watched it--as Bretsky sent me the tape a week or two ago.

BAD MEMORIES


Yes, talk about friends wanting to see you happy; my former roommate from NY sent me that tape documenting the Bronco Super Bowl loss followed by the Niners game where Jerry Rice fumbles and TO makes the great play :sad:



B

and it was your duty to pass it on?


Harvey indicated about 8 weeks ago that he had to watch that Freeman pass to see which of our recollections of that play was accurate.

Believe it or not, I do have a photographic memory on things besides chicks.

My wife often comments on how I fail to remember so many personal things, but can remember pro football plays that happened years ago. I have good and bad memories from former money softball tournaments that will live with me forever...some the worst (hitting into a game ending double play in the bottom of the seventh and down by 2) and some of the best (hitting a HR to seal 2G for our tournament team in a big money tourney).

Must be a guy thing......or sports fanatic.


B

[b bulldog]

Actually Brady was the big reason why the Pats pulled off one of the biggest upsets, not being on the other side like Brett was.

[Bretsky]

He wasn't the player most valuable in the game. he was least accountable for the W between himself,Desmond and Reggie imo. That;'s all, I just thinkm in big games, your big studs carry the team to a W. He did play well in that game though but we disagree on who was significant on getting them there.


I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU ARE PASSING THIS OFF AS PART OF YOUR ARGUMENT; YOU ARE BETTER THAN THIS.


B

[b bulldog]

I plainly put more emphasis on this than you, that is all. IMO, being the MVP in a Super Bowl or from the regular season is a big deal. Brett won three MVP's and I think thaT IS HUGE.

[GBRulz]

I know, he is better that this. Which is why I'm done for the night here. If I want to hear about someone's need for attention, I'll go read about John Mark Karr.

[b bulldog]

Funny, I am not better than this, really, I'm not. I meant all that was said and the significance I put with it.

[HarveyWallbangers]

So, these "average" New England defenses also had these top 3 conference rankings:

2001
3rd in points allowed
2nd in interceptions
1st in defensive TDs

2003
1st in points allowed
1st in forced turnovers
1st in defensive TDs
3rd in sacks

2004
2nd in points allowed
3rd in forced turnovers
1st in sacks

[Bretsky]

I plainly put more emphasis on this than you, that is all. IMO, being the MVP in a Super Bowl or from the regular season is a big deal. Brett won three MVP's and I think thaT IS HUGE.


Super Bowl is one game and as pointed out Brady has had less than spectacular #'s and was named MVP. MVP from the season covers players excelling for 16 games and is much much more credibile IMO. Favre, IMO, still should have been the MVP in the SB win. But I'm glad for Desmond as well.

[prsnfoto]

[quote="b bulldog"]Please explain how Brady's D who averaged a bit better than average during his 3, count them 3 Super Bowls, made all the plays or was most responsible for the Pats getting and winning the big game

First off the Raiders should have been in one of those superbowls second its your choice if you want to have buttsex with Brady we all just ask you keep it to yourself. Brady is a great QB but all you lovers just like Manning lovers need to remember what if their career's end tommorrow are you really going to say they are greater than Montana,marino,Brett,Young? Common your total sports ignorance is showing through.

[sharpe1027]

Looking at just about any measure of QB other than SB wins and Brady isn't as good. This thread reminds me of the Barry Sanders vs. Emmitt Smith argument. Watching both play I don't think Smith was even close to as good a back as Sanders, however, based upon at the team's relative success some Cowboy's fans argued Smith was better.

It comes down to this, when Farve won the SB he played clearly better than Brady (watch the games). Farve's last few seasons have sucked in the playoffs, but who is to say Brady won't do the same in 6 years. That is assuming he isn't out of football with an injury (which is another huge advantage so far for Farve).