"CRITICAL OFFSEASON"...sniff sniff....Change is in the Air

[Bretsky]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-will-make-changes-after-getting-demolished-in-playoffs-again-jk8c80g-186722401.html

[rbaloha1]

Yup -- bring some physicality which starts with Teo. Aloha to Hawk and his $5.4 million cap number.

Drafting more agile players -- Hawk?

[call_me_ishmael]

I would like to see the Packers focus on becoming a more physical team that can pound the ball and stop the run when needed. I would like the focus to be on the front 7 and OL. I would also like to see a power back picked high. Would not mind the back from Alabama at all. He runs hard!

Part of me wonders if we've seen another evolution of the game in the past few years. The dominating offenses of the Packers and the Saints have caused some NFC teams to respond. Look at how Seattle, SF, NYG are all built. These teams are built on tough, nasty defense and a solid running game. These teams are constructed in such a way that they can out muscle the late 2000s Mike McCarthy and Sean Payton teams. Any thoughts?

[pbmax]

I would like to see the Packers focus on becoming a more physical team that can pound the ball and stop the run when needed. I would like the focus to be on the front 7 and OL. I would also like to see a power back picked high. Would not mind the back from Alabama at all. He runs hard!

How much do you think the O line will change, personnel wise?

Both Sherrod and Bulaga will be back next year. That is seven potential starters with Newhouse, Lang, EDS, Sitton and Barclay. Van Roten, the recently signed center/guard and Shea Allard put the camp roster at 10.

He might draft an interior guy to backup EDS and play Guard. Maybe a tackle. but will two new players change the play on the line? Seems too hopeful.

[call_me_ishmael]

How much do you think the O line will change, personnel wise?

Both Sherrod and Bulaga will be back next year. That is seven potential starters with Newhouse, Lang, EDS, Sitton and Barclay. Van Roten, the recently signed center/guard and Shea Allard put the camp roster at 10.

He might draft an interior guy to backup EDS and play Guard. Maybe a tackle. but will two new players change the play on the line? Seems too hopeful.

I agree with you. I don't know what the answer is. In theory, it should be a pretty good line. Buluga should be a pro bowl type guy. Lang is expected to be a very good guard based on his extension. Sitton is paid like a premiere guard. EDS is expected to be at least average I would think. Newhouse wasn't completely horrible and I would hope between him and Sherrod they could at least be serviceable.

I guess I always thought Sitton, Bulaga and Lang were more of the brawler mode than finesse mode. Seems strange that we still cannot consistently run the ball.

[Bretsky]

I think we still have to stock the D in the draft and pray we hit on a serious contributers at DL and LB
Oh......and maybe a free agent or two ....maybe ?

[Bretsky]

When we dissect this team we see some superstars and a lot of things we consider to be holes at starting positions. But we can only do so much in a year with the draft.
We are not built like San Francisco

But we need to build a team tough enough so we don't get our asses handed to us in the trenches against the tougher teams.

[Freak Out]

As bad as the OL played during the year one would think that with the players coming off IR they might be ok...who pays center next year? Hopefully Saturday is long fucking gone.

[packrulz]

The zone blocking scheme the Packers try to use is a failure, I wish they would scrap it. I think the running backs are fine. Likewise, the 3-4 defense has been a failure the last few years. Lousy pass rush, and can't stop the run. If they're going to stay with the 3-4, they need to upgrade at linebacker, safety, and cornerback.

[mraynrand]

everything being predicating on not having a clusterF of injuries, I think the O line should be fine. I don't see all that much need to go and get someone to pound the ball. Would be nice to have a more natural running back, but I find it ironic that Ravens and Niners made adjustments to become more adept in the downfield passing game. NE improved interior blocking to get critical yards in the run game. I see no problem with Lang, EDS and Sitton inside.

The front 7 on the defense is a shambles, and needs 3-4 better players, including a stud. Maybe 2 of those guys are on the roster. Draft a stud and/or actually use FA to get better. Try not being injured all the time. See you next year.

[rbaloha1]

O-line is fine.

It is the front seven and safeties that need to be addressed. What happened to a head hunting safety?

Capers is the old style d-coordinator that fails to account for the qb. Need more modern type thinking and personnel to match.

[hoosier]

I understand the perception that the Packers need to toughen up on defense in order to regain the edge that they seem to have lost in the past year or so. But the beating they took from San Fran wasn't just about physicality. It was also about scheme, or execution, or both. The two things that stood out were the third down blitzes where the GB man defense left no one to account for the QB, and the read-option plays where the OLBs crashed inside and nobody was left on the edge to force Kaepernick back inside. To me it looked like the Packer defense thought it was playing against Matthew Stafford or some other immobile quarterback. You have to make Kaepernick beat you through the air. He might well have done that, but if he had we wouldn't be sitting here talking about how the Packers need to retool their defense by swapping out their "finesse" players for hard hitters. In looking at the entire season I think the Packers currently have a better than average defense that could well get even better with a healthy Bishop and off-season development from guys like Perry, Hayward, Moses and Daniels. Saturday was not a fluke, but I doubt very much that Desmond Bishop would have made a difference given the Packers failure to adjust (or execute?) any better than they did.

[rbaloha1]

I understand the perception that the Packers need to toughen up on defense in order to regain the edge that they seem to have lost in the past year or so. But the beating they took from San Fran wasn't just about physicality. It was also about scheme, or execution, or both. The two things that stood out were the third down blitzes where the GB man defense left no one to account for the QB, and the read-option plays where the OLBs crashed inside and nobody was left on the edge to force Kaepernick back inside. To me it looked like the Packer defense thought it was playing against Matthew Stafford or some other immobile quarterback. You have to make Kaepernick beat you through the air. He might well have done that, but if he had we wouldn't be sitting here talking about how the Packers need to retool their defense by swapping out their "finesse" players for hard hitters. In looking at the entire season I think the Packers currently have a better than average defense that could well get even better with a healthy Bishop and off-season development from guys like Perry, Hayward, Moses and Daniels. Saturday was not a fluke, but I doubt very much that Desmond Bishop would have made a difference given the Packers failure to adjust (or execute?) any better than they did.

For sure it is a combination of things.

But whatever it is change is imperative which starts from the mindset of the coordinator.

BTW Greg Roman the niners o coordinator was on Caper's Carolina staff and knew exactly what Capers would call in numerous situations. This is the tpe of information Buck and Aikman provide during a telecast. All those whiners need to be quiet and listen.

Keep the fan mail coming -- I know the O'reilly bullies are silly but do not be intimadated:lol:

[Patler]

It's hard to have a successful defense when the roster is continually turning over and isn't allowed to mature. Whether that has been the case with the Packers is up for debate.

But what isn't is that Thompson has leaned away from acquiring big, physical players like Bishop in favor of more agile players like A.J. Hawk, Morgan Burnett, Brad Jones, D.J. Smith, M.D. Jennings, Sam Shields, Frank Zombo, Casey Hayward and Mike Daniels.

First-round pick Nick Perry was more in the Bishop style of physical player ... Terrell Manning might be able to add some pop to the lineup .....

Safety Jerron McMillian, another physical type ... Cornerback Davon House looked like he might add some muscle to the defense....

Silverstein gets an "F" for proposing a theory, then supporting it with facts.
He proposed that TT has leaned away fron acquiring physical players, then identifies four acquired in the last two years that do appear to be physical types. Unfortunately, all four had their seasons impacted greatly by injuries.

For some reason, the Packers can't seem to catch a break on defense with the health and performance of players:

Justin Harrell comes on board with some very interesting skills and natural gifts, but never gets on the field due to injury after injury.

Johnny Jolly shows a real presence on the DL, a performance many people said was worthy of the Pro Bowl, and he gets himself suspended, apparently for life.

Tramon Williams has a year that causes people to mention him among the best cover-corners in the league, then has an injury that completely takes away his style of play last year, and seemed to change him even this year.

Nick Collins developed to the point of meriting mention with the best safeties in the game today, and has his career ended by mere inches on a freak injury.

Davon House looks like the all-around CB the defense needs for a while in preseason, and goes down to injury that takes away his role.

Desmond Bishop waits years, then finally makes a real physical impact as a starter, gets injured and now has to be considered a question mark for next year.

Mike Neal, another high draft pick, loses two years of development to injuries, then gets himself suspended for the start of this season.

Nick Perry, another first rounder, hardly has a chance to make an impact his rookie season before going on IR. Unfortunately, the better part of a year's on-field experience in converting to LB is lost.

Sam Shields up and down career seems to reach a new level, and he loses a big chunk of his first season as a starter to injury.

Clay Matthews' ongoing hamstring concerns finally cost him significant playing time this year. This has been a continual issue since his rookie year, what will the future bring for him?

Manning, Smith, McMillan all could have had larger roles this season, but circumstances denied them their opportunities.

The defensive roster just can't seem to develop the cohesion it needs.

[rbaloha1]

Silverstein gets an "F" for proposing a theory, then supporting it with facts.
He proposed that TT has leaned away fron acquiring physical players, then identifies four acquired in the last two years that do appear to be physical types. Unfortunately, all four had their seasons impacted greatly by injuries.

For some reason, the Packers can't seem to catch a break on defense with the health and performance of players:

Justin Harrell comes on board with some very interesting skills and natural gifts, but never gets on the field due to injury after injury.

Johnny Jolly shows a real presence on the DL, a performance many people said was worthy of the Pro Bowl, and he gets himself suspended, apparently for life.

Tramon Williams has a year that causes people to mention him among the best cover-corners in the league, then has an injury that completely takes away his style of play last year, and seemed to change him even this year.

Nick Collins developed to the point of meriting mention with the best safeties in the game today, and has his career ended by mere inches on a freak injury.

Davon House looks like the all-around CB the defense needs for a while in preseason, and goes down to injury that takes away his role.

Desmond Bishop waits years, then finally makes a real physical impact as a starter, gets injured and now has to be considered a question mark for next year.

Mike Neal, another high draft pick, loses two years of development to injuries, then gets himself suspended for the start of this season.

Nick Perry, another first rounder, hardly has a chance to make an impact his rookie season before going on IR. Unfortunately, the better part of a year's on-field experience in converting to LB is lost.

Sam Shields up and down career seems to reach a new level, and he loses a big chunk of his first season as a starter to injury.

Clay Matthews' ongoing hamstring concerns finally cost him significant playing time this year. This has been a continual issue since his rookie year, what will the future bring for him?

Manning, Smith, McMillan all could have had larger roles this season, but circumstances denied them their opportunities.

The defensive roster just can't seem to develop the cohesion it needs.

Good stuff. You guys are both right.

Capers still needs to go.

[Deputy Nutz]

Silverstein gets an "F" for proposing a theory, then supporting it with facts.
He proposed that TT has leaned away fron acquiring physical players, then identifies four acquired in the last two years that do appear to be physical types. Unfortunately, all four had their seasons impacted greatly by injuries.

For some reason, the Packers can't seem to catch a break on defense with the health and performance of players:

Justin Harrell comes on board with some very interesting skills and natural gifts, but never gets on the field due to injury after injury.

Johnny Jolly shows a real presence on the DL, a performance many people said was worthy of the Pro Bowl, and he gets himself suspended, apparently for life.

Tramon Williams has a year that causes people to mention him among the best cover-corners in the league, then has an injury that completely takes away his style of play last year, and seemed to change him even this year.

Nick Collins developed to the point of meriting mention with the best safeties in the game today, and has his career ended by mere inches on a freak injury.

Davon House looks like the all-around CB the defense needs for a while in preseason, and goes down to injury that takes away his role.

Desmond Bishop waits years, then finally makes a real physical impact as a starter, gets injured and now has to be considered a question mark for next year.

Mike Neal, another high draft pick, loses two years of development to injuries, then gets himself suspended for the start of this season.

Nick Perry, another first rounder, hardly has a chance to make an impact his rookie season before going on IR. Unfortunately, the better part of a year's on-field experience in converting to LB is lost.

Sam Shields up and down career seems to reach a new level, and he loses a big chunk of his first season as a starter to injury.

Clay Matthews' ongoing hamstring concerns finally cost him significant playing time this year. This has been a continual issue since his rookie year, what will the future bring for him?

Manning, Smith, McMillan all could have had larger roles this season, but circumstances denied them their opportunities.

The defensive roster just can't seem to develop the cohesion it needs.

Great post. Silverstein seems to find a dislike for a guy and then rag on him throughout his career. That guy is AJ Hawk, he isn't what you want out of 5th pick in the draft and he has been disappointing, but that doesn't mean you post irrational articles just so you can throw his name around for the 100th time this season.

[Patler]

Silverstein seems to find a dislike for a guy and then rag on him throughout his career. That guy is AJ Hawk, he isn't what you want out of 5th pick in the draft and he has been disappointing, but that doesn't mean you post irrational articles just so you can throw his name around for the 100th time this season.

I agree completely. It's unfortunate that the year the Packers had the #5 pick was not a year that had a bunch of future Hall of Famers available.

[pbmax]

I understand the perception that the Packers need to toughen up on defense in order to regain the edge that they seem to have lost in the past year or so. But the beating they took from San Fran wasn't just about physicality. It was also about scheme, or execution, or both. The two things that stood out were the third down blitzes where the GB man defense left no one to account for the QB, and the read-option plays where the OLBs crashed inside and nobody was left on the edge to force Kaepernick back inside. To me it looked like the Packer defense thought it was playing against Matthew Stafford or some other immobile quarterback. You have to make Kaepernick beat you through the air. He might well have done that, but if he had we wouldn't be sitting here talking about how the Packers need to retool their defense by swapping out their "finesse" players for hard hitters. In looking at the entire season I think the Packers currently have a better than average defense that could well get even better with a healthy Bishop and off-season development from guys like Perry, Hayward, Moses and Daniels. Saturday was not a fluke, but I doubt very much that Desmond Bishop would have made a difference given the Packers failure to adjust (or execute?) any better than they did.

I cannot explain the 2nd half plan as I barely remember and have not watched it again. But the first half was a complete miscalculation, which can happen. What I don't understand, is that like Webb/Ponder the week before, how they did not see it coming.

The players and coaches comments were pretty consistent after the game: they did not expect CK to run as much as was obviously planned by the 49ers. They planned to get him on the edge or run Gore up the gut. Capers treated CK like a rookie QB and blitzed him and got burned after a hot start. I thought the comments about Webb being good preparation for CK were just media fodder for the fans. They apparently believed this.

Capers shouldn't be on the hot seat for scheme, it should be for not reading newspapers or listening to ESPN.

Everyone here knew Kapernick was going to be a threat to run the ball. Even Webb shook loose on the Packers outside. But the Packers didn't take that the threat of CK/Gore as seriously as the threat of Webb/Peterson. Its almost like the like four weeks of desultory games and tape for the 49ers gave Capers the impression that their offense had peaked and was now solved.

Maybe if he had two weeks to prepare, he would have had a backup defense.

Now after that rant, one thing is also very clear: they did expect him to run some read-option. They did use some kind of spy on some plays and had a plan (the scrape that Aikman mentioned) for the read-option. But the players could not execute it. So while Capers made a fundamental miscalculation about the threat of CK, the players and position coaches also failed in this game to execute two basic assignments.

[pbmax]

Great post. Silverstein seems to find a dislike for a guy and then rag on him throughout his career. That guy is AJ Hawk, he isn't what you want out of 5th pick in the draft and he has been disappointing, but that doesn't mean you post irrational articles just so you can throw his name around for the 100th time this season.

I also think Tom has lost his mind. Manning is big and physical? The fastest LB on the roster who before getting sick had trouble staying at 240+?

Jones is 6' 3" and 245. He's five pounds lighter than Matthews and his forte is holding the edge in the run game at OLB.

Frank Zombo was not acquired for his light feet and quickness. Unless Tom knows about a secret plan to play Zombo at DE.

[hoosier]

For sure it is a combination of things.

But whatever it is change is imperative which starts from the mindset of the coordinator.

BTW Greg Roman the niners o coordinator was on Caper's Carolina staff and knew exactly what Capers would call in numerous situations. This is the tpe of information Buck and Aikman provide during a telecast. All those whiners need to be quiet and listen.

Keep the fan mail coming -- I know the O'reilly bullies are silly but do not be intimadated:lol:

You make it sound like Capers is a robot programmed to make certain calls in certain situations. Roman was with Capers two decades ago. Aikman turned an old personal history into an explanation for a systemic failure in the Packers defense. Don't take him too seriously.

[Smeefers]

Silverstein gets an "F" for proposing a theory, then supporting it with facts.
He proposed that TT has leaned away fron acquiring physical players, then identifies four acquired in the last two years that do appear to be physical types. Unfortunately, all four had their seasons impacted greatly by injuries.

For some reason, the Packers can't seem to catch a break on defense with the health and performance of players:

Justin Harrell comes on board with some very interesting skills and natural gifts, but never gets on the field due to injury after injury.

Johnny Jolly shows a real presence on the DL, a performance many people said was worthy of the Pro Bowl, and he gets himself suspended, apparently for life.

Tramon Williams has a year that causes people to mention him among the best cover-corners in the league, then has an injury that completely takes away his style of play last year, and seemed to change him even this year.

Nick Collins developed to the point of meriting mention with the best safeties in the game today, and has his career ended by mere inches on a freak injury.

Davon House looks like the all-around CB the defense needs for a while in preseason, and goes down to injury that takes away his role.

Desmond Bishop waits years, then finally makes a real physical impact as a starter, gets injured and now has to be considered a question mark for next year.

Mike Neal, another high draft pick, loses two years of development to injuries, then gets himself suspended for the start of this season.

Nick Perry, another first rounder, hardly has a chance to make an impact his rookie season before going on IR. Unfortunately, the better part of a year's on-field experience in converting to LB is lost.

Sam Shields up and down career seems to reach a new level, and he loses a big chunk of his first season as a starter to injury.

Clay Matthews' ongoing hamstring concerns finally cost him significant playing time this year. This has been a continual issue since his rookie year, what will the future bring for him?

Manning, Smith, McMillan all could have had larger roles this season, but circumstances denied them their opportunities.

The defensive roster just can't seem to develop the cohesion it needs.

:bclap::bclap::bclap::bclap::bclap:

[red]

O-line is fine.



is it?

on paper it looks ok

newhouse- average
lang- good
saturday/eds- average
sitton- very good
bulaga- maybe very good

only one of those guys was lost for the season, yet somehow that decent looking line managed to be the worst in the NFL. our rushing attack was one of if not the worst in the NFL, and we allowed a lot more sacks then any other team.

and the line didn't look that great early in the year when it was all together either

so maybe it is time to look at the o-line, even though it does look to be ok on paper

[hoosier]

I cannot explain the 2nd half plan as I barely remember and have not watched it again. But the first half was a complete miscalculation, which can happen. What I don't understand, is that like Webb/Ponder the week before, how they did not see it coming.

The players and coaches comments were pretty consistent after the game: they did not expect CK to run as much as was obviously planned by the 49ers. They planned to get him on the edge or run Gore up the gut. Capers treated CK like a rookie QB and blitzed him and got burned after a hot start. I thought the comments about Webb being good preparation for CK were just media fodder for the fans. They apparently believed this.

Capers shouldn't be on the hot seat for scheme, it should be for not reading newspapers or listening to ESPN.

Everyone here knew Kapernick was going to be a threat to run the ball. Even Webb shook loose on the Packers outside. But the Packers didn't take that the threat of CK/Gore as seriously as the threat of Webb/Peterson. Its almost like the like four weeks of desultory games and tape for the 49ers gave Capers the impression that their offense had peaked and was now solved.

Maybe if he had two weeks to prepare, he would have had a backup defense.

Now after that rant, one thing is also very clear: they did expect him to run some read-option. They did use some kind of spy on some plays and had a plan (the scrape that Aikman mentioned) for the read-option. But the players could not execute it. So while Capers made a fundamental miscalculation about the threat of CK, the players and position coaches also failed in this game to execute two basic assignments.

If that outside-inside exchange is really what they were supposed to do then, on Kaepernick's long TD run, either Jones didn't get the message or he simply cannot play, because he bites hard on the fake to Gore. It was painful to watch the first time, it cannot be any worse a second time:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/green-bay-packers/0ap2000000125739/QB-Kaepernick-56-yd-run-TD. Here, meanwhile, they are clearly having Matthews crash and Jones flow outside, only problem is he gets picked off by the fullback:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/green-bay-packers/0ap2000000125748/QB-Kaepernick-16-yd-run. I'm not sure how they are supposed to account for that.

I agree, it was surprising to hear those confessions about how they didn't expect Kaepernick to run the way he did. That's the only time I can think of that conventional pundit wisdom seems to have known more than the coaches. Interesting idea about how the 9ers recent struggles might have affected Packers preparation--maybe the players as much as Capers?

[mission]

Yup -- bring some physicality which starts with Teo. Aloha to Hawk and his $5.4 million cap number.

Drafting more agile players -- Hawk?

Teo?? Are you kidding? Did you watch the National Championship?

Dude is a lunge tackler. Get rid of AJ Hawk for another AJ Hawk? No thanks. Another overrated college linebacker.

[denverYooper]

If that outside-inside exchange is really what they were supposed to do then, on Kaepernick's long TD run, either Jones didn't get the message or he simply cannot play, because he bites hard on the fake to Gore. It was painful to watch the first time, it cannot be any worse a second time:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/green-bay-packers/0ap2000000125739/QB-Kaepernick-56-yd-run-TD. Here, meanwhile, they are clearly having Matthews crash and Jones flow outside, only problem is he gets picked off by the fullback:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/green-bay-packers/0ap2000000125748/QB-Kaepernick-16-yd-run. I'm not sure how they are supposed to account for that.

I agree, it was surprising to hear those confessions about how they didn't expect Kaepernick to run the way he did. That's the only time I can think of that conventional pundit wisdom seems to have known more than the coaches. Interesting idea about how the 9ers recent struggles might have affected Packers preparation--maybe the players as much as Capers?

Harbaugh stated somewhere that they intentionally did not run many pistol plays in the Seattle game and none in the AZ game. Also, that they extended their option package considerably with things not on film. So it was a combination of the Packers being underprepared and the 49ers coming in with a great gameplan.

I thought that their chances were 50/50 at best but that the Shields pick-6 would be the exact thing they'd need to win this game. Unfortunately a combination of offensive stalls and Ross's muffed punt put them back in the hole from which they would never completely dig out.

[rbaloha1]

Teo?? Are you kidding? Did you watch the National Championship?

Dude is a lunge tackler. Get rid of AJ Hawk for another AJ Hawk? No thanks. Another overrated college linebacker.

You are not alone with that assessment.

[Patler]

is it?

on paper it looks ok

newhouse- average
lang- good
saturday/eds- average
sitton- very good
bulaga- maybe very good

only one of those guys was lost for the season, yet somehow that decent looking line managed to be the worst in the NFL. our rushing attack was one of if not the worst in the NFL, and we allowed a lot more sacks then any other team.

and the line didn't look that great early in the year when it was all together either

so maybe it is time to look at the o-line, even though it does look to be ok on paper

Well........I'll go back to one of my old complaints.....Campen.

Good O-lines can be groups for which the total performance is better than the sum of its parts. OK or average players playing well as a unit perform better than their individual abilities might suggest.

The Packers are the opposite. Seemingly very good players are not having the collective result you would hope for.

Year after year the line starts slowly, in both pass protection and run blocking; and never seems to develop the coordinated performance you look for. They show capability in one game, vulnerability in the next.

[Patler]

Teo?? Are you kidding? Did you watch the National Championship?

Dude is a lunge tackler. Get rid of AJ Hawk for another AJ Hawk? No thanks. Another overrated college linebacker.

Te'o is not a lunge tackler, although he looked that way at times in that game. The entire ND defense was behind the playing speed of that game, not unlike an NFL rookie is at first. Consequently, Te'o was shown to be lunging a few times in that game because he was behind and slightly out of position, or was trying to go around or over D-lineman that were pushed back into him or on the ground in his way. That has not been his normal tackling style for four years as a starter.

I think Te'o will adapt to the speed of the NFL, and he is more than willing to play a physical style of play. No LB will play well when his own D-linemen are pushed completely into his path to a ball carrier.

The overall difference in team speed and skill in that game was tremendous, and consequently it blunted the performances of even the better players on ND.

That said, I have no strong feelings for or against the Packers taking Te'o.

[pbmax]

If that outside-inside exchange is really what they were supposed to do then, on Kaepernick's long TD run, either Jones didn't get the message or he simply cannot play, because he bites hard on the fake to Gore. It was painful to watch the first time, it cannot be any worse a second time:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/green-bay-packers/0ap2000000125739/QB-Kaepernick-56-yd-run-TD. Here, meanwhile, they are clearly having Matthews crash and Jones flow outside, only problem is he gets picked off by the fullback:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/green-bay-packers/0ap2000000125748/QB-Kaepernick-16-yd-run. I'm not sure how they are supposed to account for that.

I agree, it was surprising to hear those confessions about how they didn't expect Kaepernick to run the way he did. That's the only time I can think of that conventional pundit wisdom seems to have known more than the coaches. Interesting idea about how the 9ers recent struggles might have affected Packers preparation--maybe the players as much as Capers?

Yes on all accounts. If I am reading the comments and literature correctly, there are two different counters to the scrape the Packers were running. One is a slice block by the TE/wing. The other is the FB/RB lead block.

And while I hate to mind read or make assumptions about individuals, my one concern about Capers is age. Did someone on the Packer staff review enough tape of this play to know that? Smart Football tweeted that most of the pro offenses using the read option used the slice block as a counter to the D's scrape. Did anyone from the Packers see this?

[pbmax]

Well........I'll go back to one of my old complaints.....Campen.

Good O-lines can be groups for which the total performance is better than the sum of its parts. OK or average players playing well as a unit perform better than their individual abilities might suggest.

The Packers are the opposite. Seemingly very good players are not having the collective result you would hope for.

Year after year the line starts slowly, in both pass protection and run blocking; and never seems to develop the coordinated performance you look for. They show capability in one game, vulnerability in the next.

Actually, this year, after they went to the Patler lineup, I thought their performance got noticeably better. Doesn't explain slow starts and Bulaga's down year even before the injury, but they jelled late. The pass rush issues late in the 49er game were a one dimensional offense being forced to call the absolute correct protection to guard against Willis' delayed blitzes.

[rbaloha1]

Te'o is not a lunge tackler, although he looked that way at times in that game. The entire ND defense was behind the playing speed of that game, not unlike an NFL rookie is at first. Consequently, Te'o was shown to be lunging a few times in that game because he was behind and slightly out of position, or was trying to go around or over D-lineman that were pushed back into him or on the ground in his way. That has not been his normal tackling style for four years as a starter.

I think Te'o will adapt to the speed of the NFL, and he is more than willing to play a physical style of play. No LB will play well when his own D-linemen are pushed completely into his path to a ball carrier.

The overall difference in team speed and skill in that game was tremendous, and consequently it blunted the performances of even the better players on ND.

That said, I have no strong feelings for or against the Packers taking Te'o.

Well stated. Its too bad to many posters only look at a few highlights/lowlights to make definitive statements.

Trust me Teo you will like Teo as a Packer if it happens.

[Patler]

Actually, this year, after they went to the Patler lineup, I thought their performance got noticeably better. Doesn't explain slow starts and Bulaga's down year even before the injury, but they jelled late. The pass rush issues late in the 49er game were a one dimensional offense being forced to call the absolute correct protection to guard against Willis' delayed blitzes.

It seemed pretty obvious that without Lang at LG they were much weaker there, and due to ability or injury Lang was not playing well at RT. Might as well go to one weakened position rather than two. The move to EDS for Saturday seemed to be an upgrade as well.

The problem is, they will probably start like crap next year, too.

I thought the O-line played well against the 49ers. I was commenting collectively for this season, and for seemingly every season since MM came. Maybe its the whole zone to modified zone schemes they have used, maybe its Campen, I don't know. What I do know is that every year has been the same, poor starts, OK finishes and a lot of inconsistency in between.

[sharpe1027]

I thought the Oline had a very hard time forming a pocket against the 49ers. Too many times the tackles were pushed into Rodger's lap, barely giving him room to throw. There were several times that Rodgers had good protection, but it was not consistent enough to sustain good drives.

[red]

when i watched the patriots yesterday it became painfully obvious just how far our o-line has to go.

brady gets forever to throw, and he never has to worry about stepping up or out to avoid a guy in order to make a pass

i agree patler, campen is the main problem, the line has never performed well since he's been coach

[Bossman641]

It seemed pretty obvious that without Lang at LG they were much weaker there, and due to ability or injury Lang was not playing well at RT. Might as well go to one weakened position rather than two. The move to EDS for Saturday seemed to be an upgrade as well.

The problem is, they will probably start like crap next year, too.

I thought the O-line played well against the 49ers. I was commenting collectively for this season, and for seemingly every season since MM came. Maybe its the whole zone to modified zone schemes they have used, maybe its Campen, I don't know. What I do know is that every year has been the same, poor starts, OK finishes and a lot of inconsistency in between.

Yes yes and yes.

Going back to the early part of the year, I don't understand why we can't run and more specifically why we can't run right. We've been told again and again how Sitton is a brawler and one of the better guards in the league. This was supposed to be Bulaga's coming out year. Was Saturday single-handedly holding back the run game?

Even against SF, the niners rushed 5 on only 2 dropbacks. That's a slap in the face to the OL.

[run pMc]

Rodgers was sacked 51 times this year.
GB's line is mediocre compared to the rest of the league. Comparing to SF's is tough because they have a very good OLine and (with Justin Smith) DLine.
GB's squad looks good compared to CHI's OLine, so it's relative.

I've been unhappy with Campen in the past but it seemed like the last 2-3 years the line's gotten better...maybe that's just the talent improved but not the coaching.

There are questions with this line, mainly about the LT and C spots IMO.
Can Sherrod play, does Newhouse hold the spot, or does Datko surprise everyone?
Is EDS is the answer at C?

I thought the DL played worse than the OL against SF.

[pbmax]

when i watched the patriots yesterday it became painfully obvious just how far our o-line has to go.

brady gets forever to throw, and he never has to worry about stepping up or out to avoid a guy in order to make a pass

i agree patler, campen is the main problem, the line has never performed well since he's been coach

But if you saw the first three quarters of the Patriots versus the 49ers, you might come to the alternate conclusion.

[pbmax]

It seemed pretty obvious that without Lang at LG they were much weaker there, and due to ability or injury Lang was not playing well at RT. Might as well go to one weakened position rather than two. The move to EDS for Saturday seemed to be an upgrade as well.

It was a bit odd. Because EDS played more effectively last year filling in for Lang. He was not lock up guy, but he performed pretty well. But he struggled mightily in one of his starts at LG.

[Patler]

It was a bit odd. Because EDS played more effectively last year filling in for Lang. He was not lock up guy, but he performed pretty well. But he struggled mightily in one of his starts at LG.

I have to admit, when Bulaga went down, I thought EDS at LG would work OK, but it didn't. I read an article somwhere, by a writer who said he went back and looked at the EDS games at guard last year, and came to the conclusion that he had not played nearly as well as it might have seemed. The offense was just clicking so well overall in 2011that they were able to overcome it. Not the same this year when the offense overall was not as good.

[King Friday]

As I have wanted for YEARS...a RB that is a threat both as a runner and as a receiver would be a huge benefit to this offense. The Packers haven't had a guy like that since Ahman was here. That kind of back forces the defensive front seven to pay attention to him and makes it easier for the OL to gain an advantage. Part of our ineffectiveness as a rushing offense has been a lack of talent at RB. It is time to fix that. Even with the slight pickup we saw in the 2nd half of the year, I still think we need a big upgrade there.

[woodbuck27]

Silverstein gets an "F" for proposing a theory, then supporting it with facts.
He proposed that TT has leaned away fron acquiring physical players, then identifies four acquired in the last two years that do appear to be physical types. Unfortunately, all four had their seasons impacted greatly by injuries.

For some reason, the Packers can't seem to catch a break on defense with the health and performance of players:

Justin Harrell comes on board with some very interesting skills and natural gifts, but never gets on the field due to injury after injury.

Johnny Jolly shows a real presence on the DL, a performance many people said was worthy of the Pro Bowl, and he gets himself suspended, apparently for life.

Tramon Williams has a year that causes people to mention him among the best cover-corners in the league, then has an injury that completely takes away his style of play last year, and seemed to change him even this year.

Nick Collins developed to the point of meriting mention with the best safeties in the game today, and has his career ended by mere inches on a freak injury.

Davon House looks like the all-around CB the defense needs for a while in preseason, and goes down to injury that takes away his role.

Desmond Bishop waits years, then finally makes a real physical impact as a starter, gets injured and now has to be considered a question mark for next year.

Mike Neal, another high draft pick, loses two years of development to injuries, then gets himself suspended for the start of this season.

Nick Perry, another first rounder, hardly has a chance to make an impact his rookie season before going on IR. Unfortunately, the better part of a year's on-field experience in converting to LB is lost.

Sam Shields up and down career seems to reach a new level, and he loses a big chunk of his first season as a starter to injury.

Clay Matthews' ongoing hamstring concerns finally cost him significant playing time this year. This has been a continual issue since his rookie year, what will the future bring for him?

Manning, Smith, McMillan all could have had larger roles this season, but circumstances denied them their opportunities.

The defensive roster just can't seem to develop the cohesion it needs.

Solid post and analysis. Of course you realize that noone's finding fault in our hard exits from the last two playoffs because of anything Ted Thompson.

We overcame adversity somehow in 2010-11 to win a Super Bowl. That kind of success in the NFL, under similiar conditions, cannot reasonably be expected.

[RashanGary]

You make it sound like Capers is a robot programmed to make certain calls in certain situations. Roman was with Capers two decades ago. Aikman turned an old personal history into an explanation for a systemic failure in the Packers defense. Don't take him too seriously.


Let's face it, to have a great defense, you need great players. Nick Collins was a great player in 2010. Charles Woodson was. Raji and Clay were. . . . We had 4 studs that year. Collins hits like a linebacker and runs like a corner. Matthews covers and tackles in space like a 230lb 4-3 LB or big SS and plays the run/rushes the passer like a probowl DE. He could probably play safety and be good at it. Raji was a gap shooting machine in 2010. Size of a NT with agility of an end. Woodson played his slot position as well as it can be played in 2010. Could cover like a good corner and was elite in every way an inside player can be elite. . . .

We had guys who were bigger, faster, stronger. . . .


This year we had two guys. Matthews and possibly Raji, depending on how you think of him.


If I'm GM of the Packers (and thank god I'm not :) ) I would want a superstar inside player with crazy game speed. Nick Collins or Patrick Willis would be the ideal players for our team. We not only need toughness inside, but we need speed to keep up with the new breed of NFC QB. Casey Hayward, IMO, has star potential. One more superstud, an inside player, I think would be enough to put us in the elite defensive category (and that's assuming Hayward turns into an elite ball hawk inside (something that's far from proven.)

Long story short, Thompson has his work cut out for him, and Capers pretty much is taking the blame for somethings that were just bad circumstance (losing Collins) and other things that just weren't good enough (Thompson not getting star players to replace Wood and Collins. It's a tough job, but if the Packers want to win SB's, TT is going to have to be the best GM in football. Unfortunately, that's not an easy thing to be. . . . We might not win another, and TT might be gone a few years from now. We might win another, and he could retire on his terms. Players win football games, and now Thompson has to show his mettle once again. It's all on him.

[RashanGary]

If a coach has a crock-pot and his job is to make chicken salad out of chicken-shit, well, I'd call that a crock-of-shit. Ask any chef, he can make something taste better, but he's not going to win any awards without the right ingredients. Give one cook a pile of frozen perch, and another one fresh lake perch caught within the last 12 hours, and whether you're the better cook or not, you're going to lose with the lower quality fish. The NFL isn't about making something taste better, it's about being the best. The Packers just don't have the best talent.

And let's face it, when everyone is so damn good at what they do in the NFL, it takes some good breaks too. Credit to SF for Kaepernick, Willis, J Smith, A Smith, D Gholston, Gore, Crabtree, etc. . . . . They have studs, and they got them on their own account. But Willis could have lost his career the same way Collins did, and we could both be in the same boat right now. One year is just that, one year. A GM has to be good year after year after year and like TT says, "the proof will be in the pudding" or crock-pot, or whatever the fuck analogy you want to use.

[Smeefers]

As I have wanted for YEARS...a RB that is a threat both as a runner and as a receiver would be a huge benefit to this offense. The Packers haven't had a guy like that since Ahman was here. That kind of back forces the defensive front seven to pay attention to him and makes it easier for the OL to gain an advantage. Part of our ineffectiveness as a rushing offense has been a lack of talent at RB. It is time to fix that. Even with the slight pickup we saw in the 2nd half of the year, I still think we need a big upgrade there.

I agree, but in order to have a back like that, you still have to be willing to commit to the running game, and a 75%-25% approach isn't going to do it. Until the packers make the running back position a priority, it doesn't matter who we have in there. Some guy who was selling cars a couple months back will do. Why? because nobody cares about the run. They'll play pass every down and dare us to beat them with the run... which we won't, because we can't. It's the reason why everyone flipped their shit and got excited when we picked up Cedric Benson. A credible threat that we might actually use turns our offense into a supreme threat.

Passing may be the way to go in this league, but if you completely abandon the running game, you're not going to be able to toss the ball consistently. The two parts of the offense go hand in hand. I'm not saying we a 50-50 balanced attack, I'm just saying we need something.

[Smeefers]

If a coach has a crock-pot and his job is to make chicken salad out of chicken-shit, well, I'd call that a crock-of-shit. Ask any chef, he can make something taste better, but he's not going to win any awards without the right ingredients. Give one cook a pile of frozen perch, and another one fresh lake perch caught within the last 12 hours, and whether you're the better cook or not, you're going to lose with the lower quality fish. The NFL isn't about making something taste better, it's about being the best. The Packers just don't have the best talent.

And let's face it, when everyone is so damn good at what they do in the NFL, it takes some good breaks too. Credit to SF for Kaepernick, Willis, J Smith, A Smith, D Gholston, Gore, Crabtree, etc. . . . . They have studs, and they got them on their own account. But Willis could have lost his career the same way Collins did, and we could both be in the same boat right now. One year is just that, one year. A GM has to be good year after year after year and like TT says, "the proof will be in the pudding" or crock-pot, or whatever the fuck analogy you want to use.

If San Fran had the injuries we had and we had the injuries they had, it would have been an interesting match up.

I honestly think how well we did through the season with the talent we had on the field is amazing. There's a lot of teams out there who wouldn't even compete if they had the names go down that we did. I mean seriously, take away all SF's RB's, half their line, remove their safety and corner for most of the year, take out half their LB's and half their back ups on the DL and see how they turn out.

[woodbuck27]

If a coach has a crock-pot and his job is to make chicken salad out of chicken-shit, well, I'd call that a crock-of-shit. Ask any chef, he can make something taste better, but he's not going to win any awards without the right ingredients. Give one cook a pile of frozen perch, and another one fresh lake perch caught within the last 12 hours, and whether you're the better cook or not, you're going to lose with the lower quality fish. The NFL isn't about making something taste better, it's about being the best. The Packers just don't have the best talent.

And let's face it, when everyone is so damn good at what they do in the NFL, it takes some good breaks too. Credit to SF for Kaepernick, Willis, J Smith, A Smith, D Gholston, Gore, Crabtree, etc. . . . . They have studs, and they got them on their own account. But Willis could have lost his career the same way Collins did, and we could both be in the same boat right now. One year is just that, one year. A GM has to be good year after year after year and like TT says, "the proof will be in the pudding" or crock-pot, or whatever the fuck analogy you want to use.

I was waiting for you to post your reaction and my compliments JH !!

That bluntly honest post deserves one thing:

:bclap:

[Rutnstrut]

I would like to see the Packers focus on becoming a more physical team that can pound the ball and stop the run when needed. I would like the focus to be on the front 7 and OL. I would also like to see a power back picked high. Would not mind the back from Alabama at all. He runs hard!

Part of me wonders if we've seen another evolution of the game in the past few years. The dominating offenses of the Packers and the Saints have caused some NFC teams to respond. Look at how Seattle, SF, NYG are all built. These teams are built on tough, nasty defense and a solid running game. These teams are constructed in such a way that they can out muscle the late 2000s Mike McCarthy and Sean Payton teams. Any thoughts?

You don't need a solid running game when you have Arod, at least that is what many on here have said.

[Smidgeon]

Silverstein gets an "F" for proposing a theory, then supporting it with facts.
He proposed that TT has leaned away fron acquiring physical players, then identifies four acquired in the last two years that do appear to be physical types. Unfortunately, all four had their seasons impacted greatly by injuries.

For some reason, the Packers can't seem to catch a break on defense with the health and performance of players:

Justin Harrell comes on board with some very interesting skills and natural gifts, but never gets on the field due to injury after injury.

Johnny Jolly shows a real presence on the DL, a performance many people said was worthy of the Pro Bowl, and he gets himself suspended, apparently for life.

Tramon Williams has a year that causes people to mention him among the best cover-corners in the league, then has an injury that completely takes away his style of play last year, and seemed to change him even this year.

Nick Collins developed to the point of meriting mention with the best safeties in the game today, and has his career ended by mere inches on a freak injury.

Davon House looks like the all-around CB the defense needs for a while in preseason, and goes down to injury that takes away his role.

Desmond Bishop waits years, then finally makes a real physical impact as a starter, gets injured and now has to be considered a question mark for next year.

Mike Neal, another high draft pick, loses two years of development to injuries, then gets himself suspended for the start of this season.

Nick Perry, another first rounder, hardly has a chance to make an impact his rookie season before going on IR. Unfortunately, the better part of a year's on-field experience in converting to LB is lost.

Sam Shields up and down career seems to reach a new level, and he loses a big chunk of his first season as a starter to injury.

Clay Matthews' ongoing hamstring concerns finally cost him significant playing time this year. This has been a continual issue since his rookie year, what will the future bring for him?

Manning, Smith, McMillan all could have had larger roles this season, but circumstances denied them their opportunities.

The defensive roster just can't seem to develop the cohesion it needs.

Good post. Reminded me that there is/was a lot of talent on D. But you're right, the cohesion just hasn't had a chance.

[Bossman641]

If San Fran had the injuries we had and we had the injuries they had, it would have been an interesting match up.

I honestly think how well we did through the season with the talent we had on the field is amazing. There's a lot of teams out there who wouldn't even compete if they had the names go down that we did. I mean seriously, take away all SF's RB's, half their line, remove their safety and corner for most of the year, take out half their LB's and half their back ups on the DL and see how they turn out.

+1

SF relies on 9-10 players heavily on defense with another 4-5 getting <20 snaps a game. And they basically had injuries to none of them.

[woodbuck27]

I'll post this info. on this thread as well because this news conference will (maybe) give us valuable insight.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id/52340/bbao-arguing-to-keep-dom-capers

" Coach Mike McCarthy is scheduled to meet with reporters Tuesday at 5 p.m. ET.

Assistant coaches will follow. I'm not sure if there is anything to be read into the timing of their availability, but generally speaking, teams don't put assistant coaches in position to speak publicly if their futures are truly in question. " Fr. LINK above

GO PACK GO !

[RashanGary]

When it comes to the OL, Aaron Rodgers holds the ball and our running backs suck. Sacks will be up, run yardage will be down. And since our run game is so horrible, it compounds by making ARs coverages that much more difficult to throw against. . . .

Get an average to above average running back and our OL looks much better IMO. Also, with the way James Jones and Jordy Nelson block, along with the way Boykin and Ross block. . . Going forward, if we have a good RB (not even great), the ability of us to run both inside and on the edge open up, along with the coverages Aaron sees getting more friendly.


We desperately need a RB that isn't awful and at least one probowl to all pro player on defense. Get those two parts and we're a different team. Aaron isn't a dynamic runner. He's more of a scrambling thrower. We need a legit runner on this team if our offense is going to have the flexibility it will need to attack the tougher defenses.

Oh, and we need both speed and tackling on defense (something that really only comes with star LB's/safeties and the rare corner.) The new QB's need to be accounted for with speed, and it can't come at the expense of toughness. Tough task, but it's a tough league, and that's what TT signed up for. There are great players who possess everything. Clay, Collins, Willis, D Gholston, Ed Reed, OJ Mayo, Earl Thomas, etc. . . There are others, I'm not familiar with every young star player around the league. But there are guys who can do it all. They're rare, but the rare players are the ones that win SB's. We need another one, a guy who would have gotten to Kaepernick when he ran and put a fucking lick on him he would never forget. TT's job isn't done after one SB. He's a damn fine GM, but he has to keep doing it, he has to do more if we're going to win another SB.

And say what you want about the NFL being safe and all that. Greg Williams said it best when he said, "affect the head." It's not something most people relish, but it's true. Make a guy sick with one hit and the whole game changes. Affect the head. Gholston put a late hit on our little running backs head that made my bells ring. Those are the hits that change the game. Those hits don't affect one play, they affect every play there after. Affecting the head on one play affects the game on every play. The NFL has been played that way for a long time, and whether or not anyone admits it, big hit awards are still handed out, and the culture of lighting mother fuckers up is still alive and well. We don't have guys who light mother fuckers up, and as such, Kaepernick got to play cocky and free. He needed a helmet in his spine or some awkward weight twisting the fuck out of his knee and ankle to make him think twice. Say what you will, but it's true. This isn't volleyball.

[woodbuck27]

Hey JH...Re: a decent RB

I'm thinking what Ray Rice means to the Baltimore Ravens.

The rest of it !

Have you ever thought of writing for a film Director like Quentin Tarantino? That loss to the 49ers stuck a shit load of anger inside of you. I'm so impressed with your candor that I'm shaking.

[Bretsky]

When it comes to the OL, Aaron Rodgers holds the ball and our running backs suck. Sacks will be up, run yardage will be down. And since our run game is so horrible, it compounds by making ARs coverages that much more difficult to throw against. . . .

Get an average to above average running back and our OL looks much better IMO. Also, with the way James Jones and Jordy Nelson block, along with the way Boykin and Ross block. . . Going forward, if we have a good RB (not even great), the ability of us to run both inside and on the edge open up, along with the coverages Aaron sees getting more friendly.


We desperately need a RB that isn't awful and at least one probowl to all pro player on defense. Get those two parts and we're a different team. Aaron isn't a dynamic runner. He's more of a scrambling thrower. We need a legit runner on this team if our offense is going to have the flexibility it will need to attack the tougher defenses.

Oh, and we need both speed and tackling on defense (something that really only comes with star LB's/safeties and the rare corner.) The new QB's need to be accounted for with speed, and it can't come at the expense of toughness. Tough task, but it's a tough league, and that's what TT signed up for. There are great players who possess everything. Clay, Collins, Willis, D Gholston, Ed Reed, OJ Mayo, Earl Thomas, etc. . . There are others, I'm not familiar with every young star player around the league. But there are guys who can do it all. They're rare, but the rare players are the ones that win SB's. We need another one, a guy who would have gotten to Kaepernick when he ran and put a fucking lick on him he would never forget. TT's job isn't done after one SB. He's a damn fine GM, but he has to keep doing it, he has to do more if we're going to win another SB.

And say what you want about the NFL being safe and all that. Greg Williams said it best when he said, "affect the head." It's not something most people relish, but it's true. Make a guy sick with one hit and the whole game changes. Affect the head. Gholston put a late hit on our little running backs head that made my bells ring. Those are the hits that change the game. Those hits don't affect one play, they affect every play there after. Affecting the head on one play affects the game on every play. The NFL has been played that way for a long time, and whether or not anyone admits it, big hit awards are still handed out, and the culture of lighting mother fuckers up is still alive and well. We don't have guys who light mother fuckers up, and as such, Kaepernick got to play cocky and free. He needed a helmet in his spine or some awkward weight twisting the fuck out of his knee and ankle to make him think twice. Say what you will, but it's true. This isn't volleyball.


Just curious..............thoughts on Steven Jackson ? Word leaked we almost traded for him once. The Rams are going to try to unload him and I don't think they'd get much. He's around thirty but when healthy still looks pretty good.

The Rams would also be a great fit for Jennings...........

[red]

Just curious..............thoughts on Steven Jackson ? Word leaked we almost traded for him once. The Rams are going to try to unload him and I don't think they'd get much. He's around thirty but when healthy still looks pretty good.

The Rams would also be a great fit for Jennings...........

jackson will be 30 when next season starts, and we all know what happens to running backs once they hit that magic 30 mark. plus the guy has a ton of wear on those tires.

i wouldn't mind picking him up, but i don't know if i would trade much for him

[Smeefers]

Just curious..............thoughts on Steven Jackson ? Word leaked we almost traded for him once. The Rams are going to try to unload him and I don't think they'd get much. He's around thirty but when healthy still looks pretty good.

The Rams would also be a great fit for Jennings...........

If we don't sign Jennings, he's going to be an unrestricted free agent. Can't trade those fella's. I suppose we could franchise tag him and trade him, but we've been talking about a franchise tag situation for the last 3 years. I'm not buyin it until I see it.

Steve Jackson? I love Steve Jackson, but there's no reason to pick him up at the end of his career. Only way I take him is if we dump Benson and get Jackson at the league minimum.

[Bretsky]

I really think it's a no brainer to tag and try to trade Jennings. Worst case...we get him for the year. But I'd be a bit surprised if a hungry team like the Rams wouldn't throw us a 2nd or 3rd for him. Better than nothing or waiting TBD next year

[woodbuck27]

+1

SF relies on 9-10 players heavily on defense with another 4-5 getting <20 snaps a game. And they basically had injuries to none of them.

and...I'd add this:

Six (6) of those 9-10 defensive players were chosen to go to this years Pro Bowl. Along with three (3) more from their offense.

Two legitimate Packer Pro Bowl selections were Aaron Rodgers (playing at < 100%) and Clay Matthews (Getting back into playing shape but not fully up to speed because of his hammy).

Legitimate Pro Bowl Players:

49ers = 9 Vs Packers = 2

[ThunderDan]

and...I'd add this:

Six (6) of those 9-10 defensive players were chosen to go to this years Pro Bowl. Along with three (3) more from their offense.

Two legitimate Packer Pro Bowl selections were Aaron Rodgers (playing at < 100%) and Clay Matthews (Getting back into playing shape but not fully up to speed because of his hammy).

Legitimate Pro Bowl Players:

49ers = 9 Vs Packers = 2

Fun you don't mention that Jeff Saturday made the Pro Bowl for the packers.

[woodbuck27]

Fun you don't mention that Jeff Saturday made the Pro Bowl for the packers.

I posted the names of our two 'legitimate' Pro Bowl players.

THE GREEN BAY PACKERS Jeff Saturday was selected to the Center position as a backup to starter Max Unger of the Seattle Seahawks.

Green Bay had (3) selections to the 2013 Pro Bowl:

Pro Bowl Roster by team:

Green Bay Packers (3) selections:

Aaron Rodgers, Quarterback (out due to injury)

Jeff Saturday, Center (Backup) and Clay Matthews, outside linebacker (Backup)

San Francisco 49ers (9) selections: * Denotes a Starter:

NaVorro Bowman, inside/middle linebacker (Backup) and Frank Gore, RB (Backup)

* Dashon Goldson, FS; * Mike Iupati, G; * Aldon Smith, OLB; * Justin Smith, Interior Lineman;* Joe Staley, Tackle; * Donte Whitner, SS and * Patrick Willis, inside/middle linebacker.

[ThunderDan]

I posted the names of our two 'legitimate' Pro Bowl players.

THE GREEN BAY PACKERS Jeff Saturday was selected to the Center position as a backup to starter Max Unger of the Seattle Seahawks.

Green Bay had (3) selections to the 2013 Pro Bowl:

Pro Bowl Roster by team:

Green Bay Packers (3) selections:

Aaron Rodgers, Quarterback (out due to injury)

Jeff Saturday, Center (Backup) and Clay Matthews, outside linebacker (Backup)

San Francisco 49ers (9) selections: * Denotes a Starter:

NaVorro Bowman, inside/middle linebacker (Backup) and Frank Gore, RB (Backup)

* Dashon Goldson, FS; * Mike Iupati, G; * Aldon Smith, OLB; * Justin Smith, Interior Lineman;* Joe Staley, Tackle; * Donte Whitner, SS and * Patrick Willis, inside/middle linebacker.

So a process that can selected an "illegitamate" player from the Packers couldn't do the same with one of the 49ers?

Not meaning to bust your chops but until the NFL does away with the fan vote counting for 1/3 of the formula the Pro Bowl may not represent the best of the best in the NFL.

[woodbuck27]

So a process that can selected an "illegitamate" player from the Packers couldn't do the same with one of the 49ers?

Not meaning to bust your chops but until the NFL does away with the fan vote counting for 1/3 of the formula the Pro Bowl may not represent the best of the best in the NFL.

Hey !! I rolled over for you. What do you want to do now?

Bust my balls. OK I'll trade with you.

Straight up. If I offered 'YOU ThunderDan' ... TEN Jeff Saturday's for either of :

a) NaVorro Bowman or b) Frank Gore

Wouldn't 'YOU" turn me down?

[ThunderDan]

Hey !! I rolled over for you. What do you want to do now?

Bust my balls. OK I'll trade with you.

Straight up. If I offered 'YOU ThunderDan' ... TEN Jeff Saturday's for either of :

a) NaVorro Bowman or b) Frank Gore

Wouldn't 'YOU" turn me down?

I agree that both players are way better than Saturday.

Just mentioning the process is flawed and not every player that makes it deserves to be there.

[woodbuck27]

I agree that both players are way better than Saturday.

Just mentioning the process is flawed and not every player that makes it deserves to be there.

OK we're almost there:

" not every player that makes it deserves to be there" ThunderDan

Not players named NoVorro Bowman and Frank Gore. Both of these 49ers were solid choices based on their production and overall contributions to their team this past season.

That wasn't the case with Jeff Saturday, as a general opinion.