THE SOFT Sally's MUST get TOUGHER

[Bretsky]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-defense-must-get-bigger-faster-meaner-uj8both-187386551.html

[Bretsky]

In the draft, the Packers should emphasize size. And this coming spring, free agency shouldn't be treated like shark-infested waters. The draft-and-develop formula has kept Green Bay playing in January. Signing a veteran or two is needed to push the team into February.

[swede]

In the draft, the Packers should emphasize size. And this coming spring, free agency shouldn't be treated like shark-infested waters. The draft-and-develop formula has kept Green Bay playing in January. Signing a veteran or two is needed to push the team into February.

It is the off-season and Bretsky is calling for greater activity in the free agent market.

In other news, the swallows are booking flights into Capistrano.

[Joemailman]

That quote was from the article, not Bretsky. Although I'm sure he concurs.

Nothing earth-shaking there really. What defense doesn't want to get stronger and faster? Nobody's really looking to get weaker and slower.

[Bretsky]

It is the off-season and Bretsky is calling for greater activity in the free agent market.

In other news, the swallows are booking flights into Capistrano.


Bretsky is quoting the article

[red]

that 3 year 11.75 million deal for donte whitner is exactly the type of signing i's like to see TT make one or two of this offseason

not an all world player, but just a solid vet that doesn't break the bank

[wist43]

Capers exacerbates the situation by putting smallish lineups on the field. His 2 DL alignment is bad enough in any situation, but to throw that alignment out there against a power team like the 49'ers was moronic.

I agree with the article about some of the players coming back from injury helping - House, Worthy, Perry, and Bishop will help the units toughness, but even with those guys we're still underpowered in the front seven; and the back end is still going to consist of poor tacklers with a soft mentality.

Hopefully McMillian will win the Safety spot opposite Burnett. Even then though, Williams is soft and a poor tackler... as are Hayward and Shields.

Wilson, Jones, Hawk, Zombo, and Francois all need to be cut outright.

Finesse is the Packer's identity. They value coverage above all else in their LB's and DB's - that isn't going to change.

Tyler Dunne is surely a blaspheming heretic though.

[Bretsky]

Capers exacerbates the situation by putting smallish lineups on the field. His 2 DL alignment is bad enough in any situation, but to throw that alignment out there against a power team like the 49'ers was moronic.

I agree with the article about some of the players coming back from injury helping - House, Worthy, Perry, and Bishop will help the units toughness, but even with those guys we're still underpowered in the front seven; and the back end is still going to consist of poor tacklers with a soft mentality.

Hopefully McMillian will win the Safety spot opposite Burnett. Even then though, Williams is soft and a poor tackler... as are Hayward and Shields.

Wilson, Jones, Hawk, Zombo, and Francois all need to be cut outright.

Finesse is the Packer's identity. They value coverage above all else in their LB's and DB's - that isn't going to change.

Tyler Dunne is surely a blaspheming heretic though.

I dont think Shields ia a soft tackler; he was when he started but he's vastly improved and IMO is decent there. Zombo is Bready Poppinga all over..good guy....motor....limited upsde...exposed by better teams. Brad Jones can go yesterday. Wilson didn't help them nearly as much as the homers thought; he's a weak starter against quality but good enough to be in a the rotation IMO. Francois is a special team guy. Hawk......he could funtion as the 4th best LB but he should be no higher than that. At half the salary, I'm fine with Hawk back.

[swede]

It is the off-season and Bretsky is calling for greater activity in the free agent market.

In other news, the swallows are booking flights into Capistrano.


Bretsky is quoting the article

I meant that quite light-heartedly.

The problem with this year's fail is that it may leave Ted with no clear and certain sense of how to fix everything that is wrong with this team. Are we going to adjust schemes? That will impact draft and FA decisions.

Are we NOT going to adjust schemes? I don't believe this team is two rookies and a FA away. I fear that Green Bay becomes the Chiefs of the 90's. Win the division, fail in the playoffs against better teams.

[Patler]

I fear that Green Bay becomes the Chiefs of the 90's. Win the division, fail in the playoffs against better teams.

They don't have to "become" anything. That is what they have been sine 2002. Six division championships, eight playoff appearances, one SB appearance and quite a few noteworthy playoff failures.

[red]

They don't have to "become" anything. That is what they have been sine 2002. Six division championships, eight playoff appearances, one SB appearance and quite a few noteworthy playoff failures.

i think you can take that all the way back to about 1992 or so. i don't remember too many missed playoffs under favre. there was of course the 4-12 year. but we were pretty good other then that

15 trips to the playoffs, 2 super bowls in 20 seasons

i guess the plus is that we could have 0 superbowls

[pbmax]

They don't have to "become" anything. That is what they have been sine 2002. Six division championships, eight playoff appearances, one SB appearance and quite a few noteworthy playoff failures.

Most playoff teams fall into this category. Every year, 12 teams make the playoffs. Since 2002, three teams have won multiple Super Bowls. Giants, Steelers and Patriots.

That Packer Super Bowl win makes all the difference among playoff fodder. Chiefs fans would give their eye teeth for that win.

If someone wants to argue the Packers have not been as good as these franchises, that would be a fair point.

[red]

Most playoff teams fall into this category. Every year, 12 teams make the playoffs. Since 2002, three teams have won multiple Super Bowls. Giants, Steelers and Patriots.

That Packer Super Bowl win makes all the difference among playoff fodder. Chiefs fans would give their eye teeth for that win.

If someone wants to argue the Packers have not been as good as these franchises, that would be a fair point.

we're not as good as those franchises

[pbmax]

we're not as good as those franchises

Fair point.

[pbmax]

Capers exacerbates the situation by putting smallish lineups on the field. His 2 DL alignment is bad enough in any situation, but to throw that alignment out there against a power team like the 49'ers was moronic.

I agree with the article about some of the players coming back from injury helping - House, Worthy, Perry, and Bishop will help the units toughness, but even with those guys we're still underpowered in the front seven; and the back end is still going to consist of poor tacklers with a soft mentality.

Hopefully McMillian will win the Safety spot opposite Burnett. Even then though, Williams is soft and a poor tackler... as are Hayward and Shields.

Wilson, Jones, Hawk, Zombo, and Francois all need to be cut outright.

Finesse is the Packer's identity. They value coverage above all else in their LB's and DB's - that isn't going to change.

Tyler Dunne is surely a blaspheming heretic though.

wist and I are approaching critical mass here and might soon agree on all points. If that happens, I would stock up on canned good.

But first two issues remain.

One, the nickel versus the 49ers was clearly an expectation that the 49ers were going to pass or at least were more of a threat to pass than run (probably the latter). Capers doesn't throw the nickel out there on 3rd and 2 against a running team. He does it when he expects a team to respond to 3rd and short with 3 wide and shotgun.

49ers clearly went against that tendency. They ran as much read option as they had in the previous four games plus CK's scrambles.

That throws game planning for a loop. CK clearly is a dual threat and cannot be treated like a conventional QB. He threatened to and did beat the Packers through the air, but he gashed them on the ground even on third and long. As everyone who has watched Rodgers run for first downs, the QB must be accounted for even in passing formations.

So a conventional approach is going to be problematic. Blitzing him didn't work. Conventional rush didn't work. They will need to contain him and just squeeze the pocket. They need to get faster everywhere in the defense and more physical in the line. CK's long touchdown came against the base D.

Depending on which players step up, they might have to play more zone in short areas and let Jones cover TEs. Can you envision a nickel package versus the 49ers where Jones comes in to cover Davis replacing a DL? What might really help is a very physical DB at safety who can cover TEs. McMillan could be that guy. The coaches liked his coverage in camp. He was under consideration for the dime slot corner.

[Patler]

Most playoff teams fall into this category. Every year, 12 teams make the playoffs. Since 2002, three teams have won multiple Super Bowls. Giants, Steelers and Patriots.

That Packer Super Bowl win makes all the difference among playoff fodder. Chiefs fans would give their eye teeth for that win.

If someone wants to argue the Packers have not been as good as these franchises, that would be a fair point.

That was the point I was making, the Packers are that team, as are a few other teams, frequent appearances with not a lot to show for it. Perhaps the Packers are at the upper level of that group, with a single SB appearance, but the recent SB win is in danger of becoming the "fart in the wind" that Wolf spoke of regarding his SB team.

The glaring thing about the Packers in recent playoff history, is the number of rather embarrassing losses, games in which they have not competed well and others in which they did compete, but then screwed up in somewhat embarrassing fashion to lose. Then, of course, the first ever playoff loss at Lambeau which turned quickly into multiple playoff losses at Lambeau.

But, that is still better than those teams who make the playoffs only sporadically, and those who make it only rarely.

[Patler]

The Packers need a few more players who are more complete players, guys who are solid in multiple situations. Right now they have too many "specialists", guys who contribute in one phase but give little in another. MM alluded to it last year in the off season when he said he felt they needed to play more base defense and become better at it. When you constantly throw out specialized players and alignments, teams soon learn how to catch you with your pants down. Then, when the opponent rushes well, scrambles well, options well and throws well you can be in big trouble even if the team isn't "great" at any of them.

[mraynrand]

Wilson, Jones, Hawk, Zombo, and Francois all need to be cut outright.

Don't get down on Francois; he's OK on special teams

[KYPack]

The Packers need a few more players who are more complete players, guys who are solid in multiple situations. Right now they have too many "specialists", guys who contribute in one phase but give little in another. MM alluded to it last year in the off season when he said he felt they needed to play more base defense and become better at it. When you constantly throw out specialized players and alignments, teams soon learn how to catch you with your pants down. Then, when the opponent rushes well, scrambles well, options well and throws well you can be in big trouble even if the team isn't "great" at any of them.

Snoopy for forum leader.

All these spec packages blow. Sometimes you see teams with different packages on all 3 downs. Any halfway hip OC will immediately go no huddle. Force the D to keep the same 11 on the field. Then you attack the D's weak sisters in coverage or run, whatever.

I'd get on Wist's ass about Capers and his smallish, "gimmick defenses". The whole league has pass offenses with 3 & 4 receiver sets. They have 'em and use 'em a lot more. If you are going to cover these offenses, you need speed and mobility. The fast and mobile defender tends to be a smaller player. So you are seeing this type of defender hitting the field much more than in the past.

[pbmax]

The Packers need a few more players who are more complete players, guys who are solid in multiple situations. Right now they have too many "specialists", guys who contribute in one phase but give little in another. MM alluded to it last year in the off season when he said he felt they needed to play more base defense and become better at it. When you constantly throw out specialized players and alignments, teams soon learn how to catch you with your pants down. Then, when the opponent rushes well, scrambles well, options well and throws well you can be in big trouble even if the team isn't "great" at any of them.

Agreed. My fear is that big guys on the D line in the draft come at a high bust rate. In this one area, I would prefer T2 copy the Patriots old habit of signing cheap vets to 2 gap and not expect spectacular results and spend the money and draft on much better LBs. In short, I want Vonnie Holiday back.

[Patler]

In short, I want Vonnie Holiday back.

...and you can have him! He signed only a one year deal with Arizona for 2012! :grin:

Seriously though, a player the Packers should have kept. Just finished his 15th season. I liked his quote:


DE Vonnie Holliday on re-signing with the Cardinals: “I had no idea that sitting here at 36 years old, in year 15, I'd have this opportunity. So many guys that I came in with aren't playing any more. When I say I'm 36, guys are like ‘Wow.' One guy said: ‘Are you the same Vonnie Holliday I grew up watching?'”

[Patler]

I think the Packers were a conviction (Jolly) and a few unfortunate injuries (Collins, Bishop & Perry) away from being a much better defense.

[woodbuck27]

That was the point I was making, the Packers are that team, as are a few other teams, frequent appearances with not a lot to show for it. Perhaps the Packers are at the upper level of that group, with a single SB appearance, but the recent SB win is in danger of becoming the "fart in the wind" that Wolf spoke of regarding his SB team.

The glaring thing about the Packers in recent playoff history, is the number of rather embarrassing losses, games in which they have not competed well and others in which they did compete, but then screwed up in somewhat embarrassing fashion to lose. Then, of course, the first ever playoff loss at Lambeau which turned quickly into multiple playoff losses at Lambeau.

But, that is still better than those teams who make the playoffs only sporadically, and those who make it only rarely.

"...the recent SB win is in danger of becoming the "fart in the wind" that Wolf spoke of regarding his SB team." Patler

That 1990's Favre led "fart in the wind" team won a Super Bowl and returned the following season to compete for another Super Bowl.

[woodbuck27]

I think the Packers were a conviction (Jolly) and a few unfortunate injuries (Collins, Bishop & Perry) away from being a much better defense.

Add Cullen Jenkins to the above and it appears to me that your likely correct.

[Patler]

"...the recent SB win is in danger of becoming the "fart in the wind" that Wolf spoke of regarding his SB team." Patler

That 1990's Favre led "fart in the wind" team won a Super Bowl and returned the following season to compete for another Super Bowl.


That was Wolf's description of his team, not mine. He said it after their loss in the second SB appearance:



In the locker room that night, Wolf would say unforgettably, "We're a one-year wonder, just a fart in the wind."

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/29487844.html


Ron Wolf - “We're just a fart in the wind. This ought to take care of all that silly dynasty talk.”
http://www.famousquotes.com/author/ron-wolf/

[woodbuck27]

That was Wolf's description of his team, not mine. He said it after their loss in the second SB appearance:


OK then.... Ron Wolf must have made some positive impression with that phrase. Except for the awesome running of 1998 NFL and Super Bowl MVP Terrell Davis. We almost had back to back Super Bowls (1997-98).

[denverYooper]

I think the Packers were a conviction (Jolly) and a few unfortunate injuries (Collins, Bishop & Perry) away from being a much better defense.

Yeah, boy. Jolly would be in his prime years right now and they sure could use him.

[King Friday]

we're not as good as those franchises

The Packers are better than the Giants...even with 1 less SB title in recent years. The Giants have choked on the turkey bone at the end of the regular season just as often as they have made a run in January. The Packers haven't choked on the turkey bone to miss the playoffs recently. The Giants may match up better than the Packers head to head for whatever reason, but they aren't consistently successful as Green Bay has been for over 2 decades.

[swede]

The Packers are better than the Giants...even with 1 less SB title in recent years. The Giants have choked on the turkey bone at the end of the regular season just as often as they have made a run in January. The Packers haven't choked on the turkey bone to miss the playoffs recently. The Giants may match up better than the Packers head to head for whatever reason, but they aren't consistently successful as Green Bay has been for over 2 decades.

Man...that NFC Championship game! How many 3rd downs did Eli convert over Al Harris' hands by a centimeter to a leaping Plaxico Burress with fingertip catches, two toes tapping an inch from OB? I was so upset I looked like a Viking fan.

[RashanGary]

Bigger, faster, meaner. . . .


I agree, on all counts. To make it a little less vague, I'd say we need to be bigger, faster, meaner in the middle of our back 7.


Burnett, MD Jennings, AJ Hawk and Brad Jones are your who's who among ho-hum players in the NFL. Not one guy is even good, let alone great. They range from average (Hawk) to below average (Burnett, Jones) to bad (McMillan.)

I actually like Hawk more than any of that shit-list and I'm not a Hawk fan at all. At least he doesn't flat out miss tackles, although he play slow and on his heels in space. Bishop is a good player. He'll help. At the end of the day though, we need more speed an better tackling in the middle of our defense. A star safety would be ideal. If we can't get that, a safety better than MD Jennings and a star ILB opposite Bishop would be the other option.

If we can't run like the wind and tackle, we're all but fucked. Our defense played slow but worse than that, it didn't tackle and didn't have a difference maker who could clean up against the premier weapons. Obviously your DL is important, but you need at least one star inside player who can flow to the ball and finish like demon summoned straight from hell. The closest thing we had to that was an average LB that plays on his heels. When AJ Hawk is your best inside player, you are fucked. It's plain and simple.

Put Patrick Willis on this defense and we're an excellent defense. The way it is, we'll get gobbled alive by talented offenses.


A star opposite Matthews would be another option. That would be a completely different animal though. Adding some star power to the middle of our defense would make us a much, much better defense in the conventional way (see SF/SEA). Adding a star OLB would make us more of a unique type defense, with extreme power up front and a back end that would just be flat out lucky to be on the field with the guys in front of them (similar to the Giants when they're healthy)

[RashanGary]

Oh, fuck it, talent is talent. I'd take Justin Smith or JJ Watt too. Any star player who's forte fucking up offensive players would do for me. I guess Bigger, faster, meaner is good enough. Just not at CB. Anywhere else.

[RashanGary]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-too-soft-to-join-nfls-elite-2b8e22l-187611511.html


Said about as well as you can say it without a dozen f-bombs. This off season it's time to turn the heat up on Ted Thompson. It's his job to get some killers on defense and a competent running back.

To TT's credit, he's competing against the best of the best. But in his own words, it's a big boys league and it's his job to be the best.


Our front office has been raided. Our coaching staff lost a big-time coach in Philbin. We lost Collins. . . . . All of those things, while not bad luck outside the ordinary in the NFL, are certainly bad circumstances, ones that are obstacles to get over. NE has had much of the same with the cap causing them to lose good players seemingly year after year. It's a tough league. They haven't been able to win SB's despite having arguably the greatest player of all time in Tom Brady. It can happen to the best. But at the end of the day, in football, there's no such thing as an excuse.

We need Ted Thompson to be a great GM this off season. We're on the brink. It would be a completely different story if it was 2005 and our team was on the brink of falling off the cliff. We have SB winning coaches, a star SB winning QB, a bunch of good young talent on defense and more than enough talent on offense/STs. This year we're one defensive personnel home run away from that elusive 2nd ring in an era. MM has to do a better job adjusting on offense. Clearly we had issues since losing Philbin. I'm sure there are things all of the coaches could do better. The young talent on defense will obviously be better in year 2. We have the base, ALL OF IT. At the end of the day though, it's a league built on special talent (QB and toughness to be specific.) We need special talent, the kind that rings bells and gives nightmares.

This will be a very interesting off-season, one where those few big decisions may decide our fate for the season. You're at the plate, Ted. Are you going to look like Ted Williams or more like a cuddly Teddy Bear? Like a big plate appearance in game 7 of the world series, this swing is as important as any. We're not in game one of spring training. We've made it to the series, and we're a big hit away from champagne and free hookers. A strike out now, and our odds at a SB ring shrink further than we want to admit. This is it.

[wist43]

JH, I don't think we have a good base b/c we can't compete in the trenches on either side of the ball - and the team's philosophies for both lines are seriously flawed. We've masked those definiciencies with a great QB, a high flying passing game, and gobs of INT's.

Teams have caught up to our offense, and if the INT's aren't there, we're pretty much helpless on defense.

The Packers as an organization value finesse players over physical players. We have 8 drafts and offseasons with TT; he's brought in one 2-gap DL (Pickett) in the entire time he's been here. ONE!!! I love Raji, but he's best suited to a 4-3 tackle, and providing inside pass rush. Capers misuses him as a NT. He has the size to play the position, but for whatever reason he is just not a dominate anchor in there. As a result, his effectiveness is stymied. Capers and TT needed to recognize that and find different ways to maximize his abilities, but of course they simply haven't done that.

If I'm BJ Raji, I can't wait to play out my contract and get away from Dom Capers.

I like some of the other guys they've brought in as well, but again none of them are suited to playing a traditional 3-4. Perry said outright that he didn't want to play LB. TT drafts him and he's playing LB - and not happy about it. Worthy is a good player, I like him too, but he's not a 2-gap guy; and Daniels I like as well, but again, he's smallish and has to be played in sub-packages.

Given what TT handed Capers - it was on Capers to make it work. He completely misused everyone - in every way. Miscast players and injuries aside - Capers was an unmitigated disaster as DC.

On the OL it is more of the same - run blocking, road graders need not apply. TT and McCarthy want guys who can slide, mirror, and hit a moving target in the open field. Sitton is okay, but he's really the only decent OL we have. Bulaga and Lang are both average players.

I was listening to ProFootballWeekly on the radio the other day, and they said Newhouse graded out as one of the worst starting OL in the league. We don't have a center, and Sherrod is a no-hoper.

They need to take a hard look at their core philosophies in the trenches. MM wants to run ball only as an "oh, by the way..."; and Capers would prefer to play a 2-4 nickel as his base. That's who those guys are.

It has to come down to TT and MM. They seem perfectly okay with trying to play flag football in a tackle league - we're going to get more of the same. They aren't going to change their core philosophies - and I fully expect our team to continue to be bullied by tougher teams.

[RashanGary]

I like Alec Ogletree from Georgia. I think he'd be a great fit inside on our defense. He reminds me of Patrick Willis with his speed and tackling.

We'd be able to stay in a more traditional 3-4 base defense if we had a guy like this. His speed is off the charts and so is his tackling. Kaepernick doesn't make this guy miss in the open field and he doesn't run away from him either.

If you played Clay, Bishop, Ogletree and Jones at LB, there would be no reason to ever go to nickle. All of these guys can cover, blitz and tackle.

[Joemailman]

At 6-3, 234, is Ogletree stout enough to play inside on every down? Or would he be another situational player?

[RashanGary]

I think he's one of the unique talents in this draft. His speed/tackling are off the charts. SF is the toughest defense in the NFL right now. They're not the biggest, not even close. They're the fastest defense and the fastest players get the most chances to light guys up.

[Pugger]

After reading this thread and McGinn I guess we do suck. To hell with these wusses. Let's get rid of the whole lot and get some new blood with both players and coaches. These 10+ win seasons are such a bore.

/sarcasm off

[woodbuck27]

JH, I don't think we have a good base b/c we can't compete in the trenches on either side of the ball - and the team's philosophies for both lines are seriously flawed. We've masked those definiciencies with a great QB, a high flying passing game, and gobs of INT's.

Teams have caught up to our offense, and if the INT's aren't there, we're pretty much helpless on defense.

The Packers as an organization value finesse players over physical players. We have 8 drafts and offseasons with TT; he's brought in one 2-gap DL (Pickett) in the entire time he's been here. ONE!!! I love Raji, but he's best suited to a 4-3 tackle, and providing inside pass rush. Capers misuses him as a NT. He has the size to play the position, but for whatever reason he is just not a dominate anchor in there. As a result, his effectiveness is stymied. Capers and TT needed to recognize that and find different ways to maximize his abilities, but of course they simply haven't done that.

If I'm BJ Raji, I can't wait to play out my contract and get away from Dom Capers.

I like some of the other guys they've brought in as well, but again none of them are suited to playing a traditional 3-4. Perry said outright that he didn't want to play LB. TT drafts him and he's playing LB - and not happy about it. Worthy is a good player, I like him too, but he's not a 2-gap guy; and Daniels I like as well, but again, he's smallish and has to be played in sub-packages.

Given what TT handed Capers - it was on Capers to make it work. He completely misused everyone - in every way. Miscast players and injuries aside - Capers was an unmitigated disaster as DC.

On the OL it is more of the same - run blocking, road graders need not apply. TT and McCarthy want guys who can slide, mirror, and hit a moving target in the open field. Sitton is okay, but he's really the only decent OL we have. Bulaga and Lang are both average players.

I was listening to ProFootballWeekly on the radio the other day, and they said Newhouse graded out as one of the worst starting OL in the league. We don't have a center, and Sherrod is a no-hoper.

They need to take a hard look at their core philosophies in the trenches. MM wants to run ball only as an "oh, by the way..."; and Capers would prefer to play a 2-4 nickel as his base. That's who those guys are.

It has to come down to TT and MM. They seem perfectly okay with trying to play flag football in a tackle league - we're going to get more of the same. They aren't going to change their core philosophies - and I fully expect our team to continue to be bullied by tougher teams.

and that...is all he wrote so.... you can fill in 'the rest of the story'.

We've got the wrong players (talent ) to fit the scheme or the wrong scheme to fit the players (talent/abilities).

Take your pick. Expressed another way:

It's ' a luke warm ' MESS. One that we cannot compete with. It's time for Ted Thompson to tear up the old blueprint and start again. He's commited and re-commited to that former blueprint and the results got us one Super Bowl and two fizzels.

A player here or there will not get us back to the BIG GAME. Sometimes it's alot better to take a step back if you really decide to move forward. As Packer fans we need to see hard decisions (big decisions) made in this off season. We need our teams leadership (TT and MM) to make those decisions in a bigger way.

It's not going to work if TT uses a bandaid approach to get Aaron Rodgers in position to win another Super Bowl next season. That goal should be a minumum three seasons away. What we are seeing in the Green Bay Packers is a team 'just trying' to keep up. That team will never keep up with the best.

We need to see 'a new vision'.

[Joemailman]

I think he's one of the unique talents in this draft. His speed/tackling are off the charts. SF is the toughest defense in the NFL right now. They're not the biggest, not even close. They're the fastest defense and the fastest players get the most chances to light guys up.

Fair enough. Keep in mind though he was suspended 4 games this season for reportedly violating Georgia's substance abuse policy, so son't expect TT to go after him in the 1st round.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1737114


STRENGTHS: A former safety, Ogletree showed off his terrific range and athleticism, making plays all over the field in 2012 and was often the best player on a defense loaded with NFL talent.

Terrific quickness around the edge, capable of making stops in the backfield and is fast in pursuit. Doesn't shy from making the big hit. Arrives with deceiving power and violent intentions. Lengthy frame, athleticism and experience in coverage. Has the long arms scouts like from linebackers.

Excellent special teams player whose ball skills were demonstrated when he leapt high to snatch an onside kick early against LSU in the SEC Championship game.

WEAKNESSES: Needs to be more consistent filling against the run and tackling with better pad level. Leaner than ideal frame. He'll need to show greater strength in disengaging from blockers. Off-field concern following a four-game suspension in 2012, reportedly for violating Georgia's substance-abuse policy.

--Rob Rang

[pbmax]

The Packers rarely play straight 2 gap. And their front, often this year, is aligned like a 4-3 Under with Raji at 3 tech. Capers has adjusted the scheme and put one OLB where a DE would be in a 4-3. They play a lot of 1 gap out of this. So its not just square pegs in round holes.

But even Pickett this year got overrun by double teams quite a bit this year and the problem of D players at different depths was apparent all season, not just against AP. That is partially a problem with strength and holding a double team to a standstill, but its also discipline among the front seven. I think Pickett's best days are behind him and the Packers have to think hard about what they will do without him in an effective role.

I do agree that the Packers try to do too much from a personnel standpoint. Thompson drafted too much speedy, smaller help for the pass rush that they have trouble holding the point. They individually are suited to penetration but that attack gets them into trouble surrendering big gains. This is probably a combination of ILB woes and that except for Raji and Matthews, the fastest, most explosive players are young and frequently not in the right position.

The too much sub package point made earlier is a little too pat for me. But they need to reinforce whatever they decide to play as base D. If they play a penetrating 1-gap, they need stout and reliable ILBs who will not get blocked by a lone Guard. If they play a more static 3-4, they need ILB who can fly and tackle assuredly on the move and in the open.

[Rutnstrut]

While watching the pre-game shows before the Niners Vs Falcons today I have noticed one thing. The Niners are built from the ground up to play physical football and WIN. The Packers on the other hand are content with barely getting by, this complacent attitude is most evident in the Packers front office and coaching staff. I actually prefer the Packers players and coaches of the 70's and 80's. Sure they sucked, but at least they had some fire in their belly. I really don't think this team has much heart.

[wist43]

We have talent, I actually like a lot of the players we have on defense - but most are miscast in a 3-4, and taken as a whole it does add up to, as woodbuck put it, "a lukewarm mess". We have 1 impact player - Matthews.

I remember a few years back TT saying that they'd transition to the 3-4 over time and acquire players with different body types. To date, he hasn't done anything to bring in true 3-4 players. He stated he was more concerned with just drafting good players regardless of how they would fit. I think that's evident given the players he has acquired are more suited to a 4-3, or subpackages.

Capers really doesn't even run a 3-4, he runs a 2-whatever/3-whatever. Our identity on defense is that we have no identity. If you're going to throw those pedestrian LB'ers out on the field, you better have a plan to protect them, i.e. you better have some stout 2-gap defensive linemen in front of them. Of we don't have those 2-gap players, and our pedestrian LB'ers are routinely exposed.

I like Woodbuck's characterization - it's a lukewarm mess.

[RashanGary]

Wist, you watch enough. I really think tackling is our biggest issue, particularly impact tackling, the painful kind. Our CBs can't play facing the line. They get blocked out of plays like they weren't even there and have no instinct dropping into zone coverage. So they don't do it. They play man and run away from the line. Why not, when they face it, they're invisible anyway. And then our safeties and linebackers bounce off players with their pathetic attempts at tackling. . .

Don't u think we have a serious tackling problem and toughness problem in the back end?

[pbmax]

We have talent, I actually like a lot of the players we have on defense - but most are miscast in a 3-4, and taken as a whole it does add up to, as woodbuck put it, "a lukewarm mess". We have 1 impact player - Matthews.

I remember a few years back TT saying that they'd transition to the 3-4 over time and acquire players with different body types. To date, he hasn't done anything to bring in true 3-4 players. He stated he was more concerned with just drafting good players regardless of how they would fit. I think that's evident given the players he has acquired are more suited to a 4-3, or subpackages.

Capers really doesn't even run a 3-4, he runs a 2-whatever/3-whatever. Our identity on defense is that we have no identity. If you're going to throw those pedestrian LB'ers out on the field, you better have a plan to protect them, i.e. you better have some stout 2-gap defensive linemen in front of them. Of we don't have those 2-gap players, and our pedestrian LB'ers are routinely exposed.

I like Woodbuck's characterization - it's a lukewarm mess.

We are getting closer.

[The Shadow]

What's Johnny Jolly's status? I would certainly consider seeing if he has gas left in the tank. He had some nastiness.

[Pugger]

Purple Drank? No thanks.

[Patler]

What's Johnny Jolly's status? I would certainly consider seeing if he has gas left in the tank. He had some nastiness.

I kind of figured that 2012 was his last chance. He's now been away for three full years, no games, no practices, no professional training facilities. He'll be 30 years old in February.

[Smidgeon]

Burnett, MD Jennings, AJ Hawk and Brad Jones are your who's who among ho-hum players in the NFL. Not one guy is even good, let alone great. They range from average (Hawk) to below average (Burnett, Jones) to bad (McMillan.)

I disagree with most of this list. I think Hawk is above average, Burnett is good (one of two NFL players to play every snap on defense...one reason his missed tackles are higher is because of more opportunities; it will be a good year for him next year), and McMillian is incomplete. He was a rookie and appears to have a lot of potential. Brad Jones is below average when you compare him to an all around linebacker. But if you compare him to pass coverage linebackers or to 3rd string linebackers, he's well above average.

[QBME]

I kind of figured that 2012 was his last chance. He's now been away for three full years, no games, no practices, no professional training facilities. He'll be 30 years old in February.

You could be right about the lack of professional activity precluding a return to form, but if (a mighty big if) Goodell reinstates him, I would like to see what he could do in training camp. Not much of a risk to bring him in for 30 days and have the coaches see if there is enough left. They don't really need to worry about potential, as they know what he was/is capable of. If he is reinstated the Packers will have to decide whether to bring him in or release him. I'm confident there is more than one team out there that would give him a look see.

[mraynrand]

I kind of figured that 2012 was his last chance. He's now been away for three full years, no games, no practices, no professional training facilities. He'll be 30 years old in February.

fresh legs!

[mraynrand]

I kind of figured that 2012 was his last chance. He's now been away for three full years, no games, no practices, no professional training facilities. He'll be 30 years old in February.


Hey, go easy on us old-timers!

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/0524/play_g_weeden_d1_576.jpg

[Fritz]

That was the point I was making, the Packers are that team, as are a few other teams, frequent appearances with not a lot to show for it. Perhaps the Packers are at the upper level of that group, with a single SB appearance, but the recent SB win is in danger of becoming the "fart in the wind" that Wolf spoke of regarding his SB team.

The glaring thing about the Packers in recent playoff history, is the number of rather embarrassing losses, games in which they have not competed well and others in which they did compete, but then screwed up in somewhat embarrassing fashion to lose. Then, of course, the first ever playoff loss at Lambeau which turned quickly into multiple playoff losses at Lambeau.

But, that is still better than those teams who make the playoffs only sporadically, and those who make it only rarely.

Farts in the wind....all we are is farts in the wind.

Everything is farts in the wind.

Nobody said it quite like Kansas.

[denverYooper]

But who is not a fart in the wind these days? No one has really been that dominant to win multiples since the early 2000's Pats. Then you have Pittsburgh with 2 in 4 years under different HCs (though LeBeau and Horton were both on the D staff) and the Giants under 1 HC but pretty different staffs. Green Bay is still in that ballpark and I'd like to see how it goes with a season of healthy starters.

Maybe San Fransisco, but they still have to win this year. We don't yet know if they're just the next iteration of the 'ought Eagles and won't know that for a couple of years. There are a lot of things unknown - how will they fare when they lose coaches, players walk for bigger contracts, they sustain more injuries, etc.

[mraynrand]

Farts in the wind....all we are is farts in the wind.

Everything is farts in the wind.

Nobody said it quite like Kansas.

we'll just keep the sharp objects out of your reach