McGinn..."Packers Too Soft for NFL Elite"

[Bretsky]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-too-soft-to-join-nfls-elite-2b8e22l-187611511.html


The comments about GB really wanting Kendell Reyes were interesting

[denverYooper]

:lol:

[Pugger]

Yep, fire the lot of 'em and start over. :lol:

[Patler]

Nothing very insightful in this article. We've discussed these same issues several times. In fact, a poster with whom I rarely disagree started a thread about it way back in September: :lol: :lol:

http://packerrats.com/showthread.php?24513-Negatives


I figured we might as well have a counterpoint to the "Positives" thread. Some are new, some are old but are now becoming real obstacles. Identify the fundamental things you have seen that are a concern as the team moves forward. Some of mine:

- This is not a physically tough team right now. It routinely comes out on the short end of physical play. The O-line gets shoved around, the receivers are not standing up to physical play and, while playing better, the defense still seems to get "out toughed", yielding extra yards to running backs time and time again after initial contact.

- Bulaga may not be the player we thought he had become. He has not played particularly well in any of the three games. He sure has not been the borderline all-pro people thought he was. He looks a fraction slow, and is even getting beaten on power moves by rushers who should not have a strength advantage on him.

- MM had an off-season to adjust the offense to counter what defenses had learned to do against the Packers. There were even vague references to the new looks they would have. But, other than the creative uses of Cobb, we have not seen anything to counter defenses focused on taking away the long plays. A gimmick play to Cobb now and then will not get it done. NFL scemes are ever evolving and changing. MM had done it in the past, but right now seems caught in the ruts of what worked so well for three-fourths of the year last year.

- MM seems to have lost all confidence in anything except a fast strike offense. He just can;t seem to help himself, and by and large the failure of the slow developing passing plays have cripppled drive after drive.

- Rodgers has not demonstrated the patience the commentators claim he has. Can he stay with a steady diet of runs and short passes until defenses commit to stopping them? It doesn't seem so.

- Cobb is a fumble machine on kicks. He can score a TD on any punt/kick, or give the ball right back to the opponent


I acknowledged the defense is playing better, and individuals like Shields and Hawk especially, but its not just what they did against Lynch that prompted my comment. Its their overall toughness, whether due to individuals or schemes. It's almost an attitude as much as anything. Too many plays drag on because they engage the ball carrier, but don't get him down. Half yard here, full yard there. Seldom do they hit a guy and drive him back, or take him directly down. Too many scrums. Perhaps better than last year, but still a long way to go.

[denverYooper]

Nothing very insightful in this article. We've discussed these same issues several times. In fact, a poster with whom I rarely disagree started a thread about it way back in September: :lol: :lol:


I thought the same, that it came off like nothing more than a post in any number of Packers fan forums.

It was another variation on Silverstein's article from last week, too, rife with the same sort of inconsistencies and discarding any information that does not fit in the Procrustean bed that the JS has created out of this "physicality" issue.

[denverYooper]

At least he didn't say that McMillian was too short.

[mraynrand]

At least he didn't say that McMillian was too short.

There's a word limit. It was in the unedited version.

[mraynrand]

I brought a physical presence to church this morning. I was asked to leave.

[pbmax]

I brought a physical presence to church this morning. I was asked to leave.

Try Pentecostal. They call a different service there.

[Patler]

I thought the same, that it came off like nothing more than a post in any number of Packers fan forums.

It was another variation on Silverstein's article from last week, too, rife with the same sort of inconsistencies and discarding any information that does not fit in the Procrustean bed that the JS has created out of this "physicality" issue.

It also appears several are zeroing in on a couple new targets to belittle whenever possible. Grant will be gone again, and possibly Hawk; so they need a couple new subjects for their "hard hitting" commentary.

[Patler]

Try Pentecostal. They call a different service there.

I'm looking for a priest who is good at a hurry-up service.

[pbmax]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-too-soft-to-join-nfls-elite-2b8e22l-187611511.html


The comments about GB really wanting Kendell Reyes were interesting

I am beginning to think the post-draft could-have-been are really just wishful thinking, even on the part of team executives, because Mike Trgovac wanted this guy:


"It’s kind of funny how the draft falls," Trgovac said. "We had some guys in that situation that went right before us. You look at Muhammad Wilkerson, he was a guy we really liked and he went two picks before us. You never know. That’s why those guys go fast. That’s why some of those teams are stock-piling talent when they’re picking way up there."

[pbmax]

I'm looking for a priest who is good at a hurry-up service.

Of course, Catholic services, with the standing, sitting and kneeling for prayer is the Tom Landry offensive line of services.

[Deputy Nutz]

Funny, last year we couldn't stop the pass. This year we are too soft. It is all circular in the NFL.

[rbaloha1]

Disagree about McGinn.

Dude looks at film and has experts available to critique players/personnel. IMO grades are more accurate than the overly harsh Gazette.

Worthy is interesting. Excited by this draft pick due to quickness and juice. Worthy needs to get to 320 pounds. Too often was pushed around on the run. Still plays too high.

[Joemailman]

Worthy showed little in training camp, decided to drop a load of bad weight and kept getting pushed back against the run. In other words, he was soft, too. By the way, Reyes had an impressive first season.

He probably needed to lose the bad weight, but it did probably reduce his effectiveness. He'll now be entering the Packers offseason training program for the first time. I would expect the see a stronger, more fit Worthy next season.

[RashanGary]

Anyone who thinks a line anchored by BJ Raji, Ryan Pickett and Clay Matthews is not stout in the trenches is smoking crack. The problem wasn't our inability to maintain the line of scrimmage. Our problem was our 2nd line of defense that looked like they were running in mud. That, and rather than a good shot of buck-shot taking down a stag, they looked like a bb gun bouncing one pellet off a RB's thigh.

We need guys who can run, and tackle through guys. AP doesn't go off the way he did if he gets tackled. The first time through we stuffed it down just fine inside. In fact, we dominated the line of scrimmage. We just got destroyed when he ran away or bitch slapped every would be tackler in his way. Same goes for Kaepernick. The guy made us look like we were running in quicksand while he raced by our shit defenders.



McGinn said we lacked toughness, and I agree. He didn't say we had shitty DL who were owned at the line of scrimmage. He said Dashon Gholston shut mother fuckers down. He's a 210 lb defender. We just don't have impact tacklers, guys who blow you up and take you down every time. Toughness, in this case, I think is being completely misread.

Now on the offensive side. . . I'm not so sure. AR's complete unwillingness most of the season to take what was given to him made everyone look bad. All of our guys are 320 plus and outside Newhouse, all of them are scrappy players. We need a RB and we need AR to take a bit of humble pie and start adjusting to what defenses are throwing at him rather than trying to take in the glory of the deep ball.

[RashanGary]

Tough running back. Tough safeties and LB's. . . . Get those things and we're a completely different team.

[rbaloha1]

Tough running back. Tough safeties and LB's. . . . Get those things and we're a completely different team.

Requires Seahawks type overhaul which was orchestrated by a TT disciple.

[Rutnstrut]

Requires Seahawks type overhaul which was orchestrated by a TT disciple.

But a TT disciple that understands free agency can be your friend.

[denverYooper]

That tough Goldson just lost his jock on the 30.

[rbaloha1]

But a TT disciple that understands free agency can be your friend.

Plus in GB its easier since TT has the final say not like in Seattle in which Carroll has the final say. MM only wants to coach.

Plus GB is no longer viewed as Siberia. It is a liveable city for the modern black athlete.

[pbmax]

Anyone who thinks a line anchored by BJ Raji, Ryan Pickett and Clay Matthews is not stout in the trenches is smoking crack. The problem wasn't our inability to maintain the line of scrimmage. Our problem was our 2nd line of defense that looked like they were running in mud. That, and rather than a good shot of buck-shot taking down a stag, they looked like a bb gun bouncing one pellet off a RB's thigh.

Its both. Pickett did not have a good year versus doubles. When he played NT during the previous two years, things did not move in the middle. They moved this year.

Raji, as wist has been correct about for a while, is not a 2 gap NT. He gets moved and gets washed out at times.

Matthews is just fine.

They need to decide what they will play a majority of downs in and draft for it. Because the new guys aren't stout but are quick and fast. They can all penetrate. But the LBs can't cover all the holes. Actually, Hawk is probably the worst fit in that type of D.

[pbmax]

Make a decision in Pickett and Raji. For Pickett, will he be an effective full time guy and for Raji, will he go full time at nose?

Then reinforce D line again. Need more ILBs. Need a physically talented safety. Maybe clone Collins.

Solve two of those issues and defense returns to 2010 level when a suspect ILB corp fared just fine except for pass coverage against TEs. We now know Brad Jones can do that job.

Offense? Sherrod is the solution to Newhouse and insurance against Bulaga if Sherry heals and Bulaga continues to fall apart. To be honest, Newhouse in the running game is better than Clifton but he is just shaky enough, and shuts down too early in the play, for me to be completely comfortable. There are a candidates at RT. Don't forget Datko at LT.

Was Datko the guy who looked a mess at RT but immediately got two draft rounds better when moved to the left? I think that was the case.

If James Starks can lead a team in rushing during a Super Bowl drive, Alex Green and Harris will be fine, though one needs to learn how to pass block and chip.

Need athletic TE to replace Quarless if he isn't healthy. Otherwise, this is OK. Need to challenge EDS in some way. But he seemed to settle right in at the end of the season.

[mmmdk]

Funny, last year we couldn't stop the pass. This year we are too soft. It is all circular in the NFL.

We made Blaine Gabbert look like Zeus! It's our front seven that lacks talent; I'm actually pretty positive about our secondary. The front 7 though is paramount to a great, even good defense.

[Patler]

Worthy showed little in training camp, decided to drop a load of bad weight and kept getting pushed back against the run. In other words, he was soft, too. By the way, Reyes had an impressive first season.

He probably needed to lose the bad weight, but it did probably reduce his effectiveness. He'll now be entering the Packers offseason training program for the first time. I would expect the see a stronger, more fit Worthy next season.

Actually, no, he will not be entering the Packers off season training program. He had knee surgery last week, and Trgovic said he is expected to miss the entire off season program.

[denverYooper]

Actually, no, he will not be entering the Packers off season training program. He had knee surgery last week, and Trgovic said he is expected to miss the entire off season program.

Too bad because he's one that really needed it to take his game to the next level. Looks like he'll probably be another year out from being what they need him to be.

[Patler]

Don't forget Datko at LT.

Was Datko the guy who looked a mess at RT but immediately got two draft rounds better when moved to the left? I think that was the case.

In training camp? Yup. They said he had never in his career played on the right side, not in high school, not in college; and was struggling with the change.

This is a guy who during his Junior year, before getting injured, was spoken of as a possible 2nd round pick for the following year. There must be same basic ability there, if he can keep his health and rebuild his strength.

[Joemailman]

Actually, no, he will not be entering the Packers off season training program. He had knee surgery last week, and Trgovic said he is expected to miss the entire off season program.

Yeah, I see now it's an ACL. I didn't think it was that serious. Maybe the call will go out to Johnny Jolly after all. Assuming he gets reactivated by the NFL.

[rbaloha1]

Yeah, I see now it's an ACL. I didn't think it was that serious. Maybe the call will go out to Johnny Jolly after all. Assuming he gets reactivated by the NFL.

Boy what a loss JJ IS TURNING OUT TO BE.

[Pugger]

Make a decision in Pickett and Raji. For Pickett, will he be an effective full time guy and for Raji, will he go full time at nose?

Then reinforce D line again. Need more ILBs. Need a physically talented safety. Maybe clone Collins.

Solve two of those issues and defense returns to 2010 level when a suspect ILB corp fared just fine except for pass coverage against TEs. We now know Brad Jones can do that job.

Offense? Sherrod is the solution to Newhouse and insurance against Bulaga if Sherry heals and Bulaga continues to fall apart. To be honest, Newhouse in the running game is better than Clifton but he is just shaky enough, and shuts down too early in the play, for me to be completely comfortable. There are a candidates at RT. Don't forget Datko at LT.

Was Datko the guy who looked a mess at RT but immediately got two draft rounds better when moved to the left? I think that was the case.

If James Starks can lead a team in rushing during a Super Bowl drive, Alex Green and Harris will be fine, though one needs to learn how to pass block and chip.

Need athletic TE to replace Quarless if he isn't healthy. Otherwise, this is OK. Need to challenge EDS in some way. But he seemed to settle right in at the end of the season.

Unfortunately Starks cannot stay healthy.

[Pugger]

Boy what a loss JJ IS TURNING OUT TO BE.

Jolly is a loser.

[rbaloha1]

Jolly is a loser.

Maybe but the Packers need him.

[RashanGary]

U see who Harbaugh was poking in the chest saying, "you won that game?"

Pollard, a safety, the most physical player on the field today. He was fucking guys up. Toughness is not always 300 lb guys. Sometimes it's the guy who concusses RB's off the field while causing fumbles, lights up Welker to the point where he's dropping easy balls and puts the fear of god in every player who goes over the middle of the field.

We need a killer in the back of our defense. We have shit. The guys who cause concussions and body sickening hits are the mean guys (who are also fast enough to kill) We just don't have it.

[RashanGary]

And the NFL isn't getting any easier. Flacco and Ryan are pocket passers in the prime of their careers and have excellent teams. There is a huge infusion of young, talented QB's in the NFC with Luck in the AFC (far more athletic than I think people realize). We had better get fast and mean at the same time or we'll be getting run all over the field wondering why we can't get over the hump.

[RashanGary]

Riddley was stumbling off walls on his way to the lockerroom. Had he somehow been able to play in some prehistoric NFL era, it would have affected him the rest of the game. That hit might affect how Riddley plays the rest of his career.

It's like Greg Williams said, "affect the head."

You hate to say it, it sounds so brutal, but the two most brutal teams are in the SB right now. Big guys up front, sure, but they have killers too.

[Joemailman]

U see who Harbaugh was poking in the chest saying, "you won that game?"

Pollard, a safety, the most physical player on the field today. He was fucking guys up. Toughness is not always 300 lb guys. Sometimes it's the guy who concusses RB's off the field while causing fumbles, lights up Welker to the point where he's dropping easy balls and puts the fear of god in every player who goes over the middle of the field.

We need a killer in the back of our defense. We have shit. The guys who cause concussions and body sickening hits are the mean guys (who are also fast enough to kill) We just don't have it.

Eddie Vaccaro of Texas and Eric Reid of LSU look like the 2 best Safeties in the draft. Not sure if they'll be around at 26 though. Probably a better chance that Ogletree will be available. Jesse Williams, DT, Alabama is a name of heard mentioned. Of course, the real guessing doesn't begin until after the Combine.

By the end of the game, Welker looked like a boxer who had taken one too many punches.

[smuggler]

McGinn's a fucking troll.

PHYSICAL PLAYERS:

Bryan Bulaga
Derrek Sherrod
Desmond Bishop
DJ Smith
Nick Perry
Jerel Worthy
Cedric Benson
Andrew Quarless

I know those guys aren't all starters, but they're important pieces for our team. The 49ers lost 2 important pieces for their team: Manningham and some tight end.

Strip the 49ers of 7 of their big, physical players and see how they play against us in that game.

[Iron Mike]

We need a killer in the back of our defense. We have shit. The guys who cause concussions and body sickening hits are the mean guys (who are also fast enough to kill) We just don't have it.

We need to bring the human heat-seeking missile back as DB coach:

http://otrsportsonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/ChuckCecil.jpg

[smuggler]

Chuck still owns. I love his liberal use of birds in the defense of the air game.

[mraynrand]

U see who Harbaugh was poking in the chest saying, "you won that game?"

Pollard, a safety, the most physical player on the field today. He was fucking guys up. Toughness is not always 300 lb guys. Sometimes it's the guy who concusses RB's off the field while causing fumbles, lights up Welker to the point where he's dropping easy balls and puts the fear of god in every player who goes over the middle of the field.

We need a killer in the back of our defense. We have shit. The guys who cause concussions and body sickening hits are the mean guys (who are also fast enough to kill) We just don't have it.

yup. and the Niners d-backs don't tackle, they body-slam people. Man, I miss Wayne Simmons.

[Pugger]

McGinn's a fucking troll.

PHYSICAL PLAYERS:

Bryan Bulaga
Derrek Sherrod
Desmond Bishop
DJ Smith
Nick Perry
Jerel Worthy
Cedric Benson
Andrew Quarless

I know those guys aren't all starters, but they're important pieces for our team. The 49ers lost 2 important pieces for their team: Manningham and some tight end.

Strip the 49ers of 7 of their big, physical players and see how they play against us in that game.

In these playoffs the 49ers were one of the healthier teams while we were the least. Losing players like this is a killer. In last night's game NE had players dropping like flies. It is even more amazing that we won it all 2 years ago with basically a MASH unit out there.

[RashanGary]

Bishop is the only player on that list that's going to bring toughness and impact tackling to our defense.

Two years ago it was Collins and Bishop. I have the SB DVD. We injured a lot of players that year. It was mostly Collins and Matthews.



Bishop is a start for us. Another ILB who takes heads off or a safety and we're back to 2010 form.

[hoosier]

U see who Harbaugh was poking in the chest saying, "you won that game?"

Pollard, a safety, the most physical player on the field today. He was fucking guys up. Toughness is not always 300 lb guys. Sometimes it's the guy who concusses RB's off the field while causing fumbles, lights up Welker to the point where he's dropping easy balls and puts the fear of god in every player who goes over the middle of the field.

We need a killer in the back of our defense. We have shit. The guys who cause concussions and body sickening hits are the mean guys (who are also fast enough to kill) We just don't have it.

The Packers had someone like that. His name was Atari Bigby.

[smuggler]

I'm pretty sure I saw Perry beat the living shit out of Andrew Luck earlier in the season.

[RashanGary]

You guys, Nick Perry and Atari Bigby are bad examples.



They can't just be fast, tough and mean. They also have to be able to play football.

[smuggler]

Jury's still out on Perry in that regard.

[denverYooper]

Jury's still out on Perry in that regard.

Agree. He sure looked to be gaining a bit of steam when he was IR'ed.

He had 1/2 of his sacks wiped out because he hit the QBs too hard.

[rbaloha1]

Jury's still out on Perry in that regard.

Yes -- but it is the Packers best option at this point.

[Joemailman]

Perry struggled at pass coverage, but I liked how he looked otherwise. He certainly is a key to this defense having a more physical presence.

[Deputy Nutz]

The Packers didn't draft Perry to cover. They drafted him to blow up the edge in the run game and attack the QB. Before the draft all I heard from GB fans was that they needed another pass rushing book end opposite of Mathews. The Packers drafted the best available in that regard, and now the sky is falling because he busted up his wrist midway through the season.

You all are a bunch of Chicken Littles. This is way it is hard to associate with Packer fan.

[Zool]

You all are a bunch of Chicken Littles. This is way it is hard to associate with Packer fan.

Might want to look at other team fan bases. Pretty typical stuff.

[Deputy Nutz]

I am growing fond of what is happening in the upper Northwest

[3irty1]

The Packers have a lot of physical defenders but many just suck too much be that that guy who can set the tone on D.

Walden has a lot of intensity and a physical style.
McMillian is a downhill safety who can decapitate, he just can't cover well enough yet to take reps away from Jennings.
Moses has a super physical style like a James Harrison with hair, but he's still a big noob.

We need that presence at ILB and S. Jones and Smith just aren't hitters like Bishop. Bishop just has some special pop in his hips that can uncoil into a guy like a hammer. Burnett is now squaring up and ripping guys down but unless another S can cover he'll be out in center field all the time.

[sharpe1027]

Good lord. Now that several writers have chosen this theme, there will be story upon story about un-measurable and subjective-only reviews about softness and toughness.

With all due respect, the Packers did not lose because they were soft. They did not lose because they were not tough. They lost because they executed poorly. The SF game was not about getting pushed off the ball and them shoving it down our throats. Gore was stuffed time and time again. It was mostly about terrible execution where 1-3 guys failed to do their job, resulting in huge runs by a QB.

[Joemailman]

The Packers need to emulate the 49ers. They need to emulate the 49ers' ability to stay healthy. By mid-season, the Packers' last 3 1st round picks were on injured reserve. In addition to Bishop, their best ILB. Did I mention Jennings missed half the season?

[pbmax]

We need to bring the human heat-seeking missile back as DB coach:

/ChuckCecil.jpg

I always thought Cecil was terrible. He was the king of dive at receiver, miss tackle because you can't wrap up when traveling head first with feet in air.

[ThunderDan]

We need that presence at ILB and S. Jones and Smith just aren't hitters like Bishop. Bishop just has some special pop in his hips that can uncoil into a guy like a hammer.

But Bishops big hits had him on the bench for the first part of his career because you couldn't trust him to be assignment sure. It was fun watching Bishop shoot thru a hole and clock a RB. It wasn't fun watching him shoot thru a gap and watch the RB cutback into the lane Bishop had left and run 60 yards for a TD.

[pbmax]

McGinn's article does what each of these headline grabbing articles is supposed to do, which is to make a huge catastrophe over, at most, 3 players.

The difference between this year and 2010 is Jolly, Jenkins and Collins.

And I am not sure Jenkins counts because he was a pass rush sub who helped Matthews pass rush if all his backers are to be believed. He was a physical presence at DE in a 4-3, but he did not play this role with the 2010 Packers.

I am not sure how Jolly did it, but somehow he was always around the ball. Is that toughness? Must be. In a way, he was an ideal 3-4 end. He never went too far up the field and was usually in position.

Collins? He was the difference. As a vet, he was smart, fast and dangerous.

Bishop will be back and while he doesn't cover much better than Hawk (and worse than Jones) he does go forward and hit people rather than collar them in pursuit like Barnett or Hawk.

So Bob McGinn telling all of you the D isn't tough is basically saying that Thompson hasn't replaced Nick Collins. We knew this.

If he replaces him and Jolly next year, we will read chapter and verse about new attitudes, higher blood pressure, inspiring sideline huddles and mean looks to the camera. But the difference will be better personnel.

[Joemailman]

McGinn's article does what each of these headline grabbing articles is supposed to do, which is to make a huge catastrophe over, at most, 3 players.

The difference between this year and 2010 is Jolly, Jenkins and Collins.

And I am not sure Jenkins counts because he was a pass rush sub who helped Matthews pass rush if all his backers are to be believed. He was a physical presence at DE in a 4-3, but he did not play this role with the 2010 Packers.

I am not sure how Jolly did it, but somehow he was always around the ball. Is that toughness? Must be. In a way, he was an ideal 3-4 end. He never went too far up the field and was usually in position.

Collins? He was the difference. As a vet, he was smart, fast and dangerous.

Bishop will be back and while he doesn't cover much better than Hawk (and worse than Jones) he does go forward and hit people rather than collar them in pursuit like Barnett or Hawk.

So Bob McGinn telling all of you the D isn't tough is basically saying that Thompson hasn't replaced Nick Collins. We knew this.

If he replaces him and Jolly next year, we will read chapter and verse about new attitudes, higher blood pressure, inspiring sideline huddles and mean looks to the camera. But the difference will be better personnel.

I think your overall point is correct, except that they didn't have Jolly in 2010. Howard Green played a pretty big role though. Not having Collins and Bishop are the biggest differences between 2010 and 2012. that and the regression of Tramon, who was as good as any CB in the NFL in 2010.

[mraynrand]

McGinn's article does what each of these headline grabbing articles is supposed to do, which is to make a huge catastrophe over, at most, 3 players.

The difference between this year and 2010 is Jolly, Jenkins and Collins.

And Woodson, big time. That versatility was amazing. I thought Woodson was done in the Superbowl and wouldn't come back, because it took everything he had just to stay with an elite WR, one last time. Two seasons later, the injury notwithstanding, he's just not the same guy - and I didn't expect him to be. The only thing he had left were instincts and the ability to tackle (see the Houston game). But his Pass rushing was huge in 2010. A lot of times he was the other guy 'opposite' Matthews that the defense had to account for. It will be interesting to see how they replace him; do they try to fit another player (Hayward?) to the "W" position, or do they replace him schematically, by actually having an OLB or ILB who can effectively rush the passer. They do need to have at least one more guy to pass rush. Most defenses can't survive with one pass rusher only.

[hoosier]

You guys, Nick Perry and Atari Bigby are bad examples.



They can't just be fast, tough and mean. They also have to be able to play football.

Then to find them you either have to be drafting early or get extremely lucky.

[mraynrand]

Then to find them you either have to be drafting early or get extremely lucky.

I'm not at the point yet where I think the Packers need a high draft pick to be competitive, but there is an argument to be made that having an off year can net you a blue chipper; we'll just ignore AJ Hawk for sake of this argument.

[pbmax]

And Woodson, big time. That versatility was amazing. I thought Woodson was done in the Superbowl and wouldn't come back, because it took everything he had just to stay with an elite WR, one last time. Two seasons later, the injury notwithstanding, he's just not the same guy - and I didn't expect him to be. The only thing he had left were instincts and the ability to tackle (see the Houston game). But his Pass rushing was huge in 2010. A lot of times he was the other guy 'opposite' Matthews that the defense had to account for. It will be interesting to see how they replace him; do they try to fit another player (Hayward?) to the "W" position, or do they replace him schematically, by actually having an OLB or ILB who can effectively rush the passer. They do need to have at least one more guy to pass rush. Most defenses can't survive with one pass rusher only.

First, thank to Joe for correcting my post re: Jolly versus Green.

As for Woodson, the reason I would not put him on this list is that his successor is likely on the roster. House seems to enjoy being physical and both Hayward and Shields are physical enough to be thoroughly competent. McMillan might be able to handle the slot/safety angle of the package.

But even if McMillan isn't an answer at safety, there is a good likelihood they will continue to look to replace Collins' skill set more than Woods given the position they specialized in.

[pbmax]

I'm not at the point yet where I think the Packers need a high draft pick to be competitive, but there is an argument to be made that having an off year can net you a blue chipper; we'll just ignore AJ Hawk for sake of this argument.

Or, like the 49ers, Buccaneers or Lions, just be terrible for a decade to collect talent.

[Joemailman]

I'm not at the point yet where I think the Packers need a high draft pick to be competitive, but there is an argument to be made that having an off year can net you a blue chipper; we'll just ignore AJ Hawk for sake of this argument.

2005: Aaron Rodgers (#24 )
2006: A.J. Hawk (#5 )
2007: Justin Harrell (#16)
2009: B. J. Raji (#9)
2009: Clay Matthews (#26)
2010: Bryan Bulaga (#23)
2011: Derek Sherrod (#32)
2012: Nick Perry (#28)

Ted drafts pretty well in the 20's. Packers have the 26th pick this year.

[mraynrand]

First, thank to Joe for correcting my post re: Jolly versus Green.

As for Woodson, the reason I would not put him on this list is that his successor is likely on the roster. House seems to enjoy being physical and both Hayward and Shields are physical enough to be thoroughly competent. McMillan might be able to handle the slot/safety angle of the package.

But even if McMillan isn't an answer at safety, there is a good likelihood they will continue to look to replace Collins' skill set more than Woods given the position they specialized in.

I'd have to say it'a about equal. They asked Collins to cover a lot of ground and tackle well, like sure-tackling Sharper or a rangier Butler. Woodson can't simply be replaced with a physical corner. Wood's peak years for the Packers were 2009 and then 2010, and the way he was utilized in the "W" role. My view is that they don't have a single guy on the roster that can play that role; what you seem to be arguing is that they can replace his skills effectively with a group of guys. I think that's probably true, but then you don't have that one guy that can do three things on the field: cover like a DB, tackle like an ILB/safety, pass rush like an OLB.

[mraynrand]

2005: Aaron Rodgers (#24 )
2006: A.J. Hawk (#5 )
2007: Justin Harrell (#16)
2009: B. J. Raji (#9)
2009: Clay Matthews (#26)
2010: Bryan Bulaga (#23)
2011: Derek Sherrod (#32)
2012: Nick Perry (#28)

Ted drafts pretty well in the 20's. Packers have the 26th pick this year.

This is why I'm not there yet. But honestly, the Packers need another blue chipper on defense, to replace Woodson and/or Collins. They essentially need another Rodgers/Matthews late first round steal. TT can do it!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ctanoxBZ_6c/UFHTkVAzChI/AAAAAAAAAsE/KMdA7CALgr0/s1600/you+can+do+it.jpg

[sharpe1027]

This is why I'm not there yet. But honestly, the Packers need another blue chipper on defense, to replace Woodson and/or Collins. They essentially need another Rodgers/Matthews late first round steal. TT can do it!


That would be ideal. They might night need a Rodgers level surprise. I think they can win if they can generate a consistent pass rush from somewhere other than Matthews, create a more consistent pocket for Rodgers and not be the most injured team in the NFL.

[pbmax]

I'd have to say it'a about equal. They asked Collins to cover a lot of ground and tackle well, like sure-tackling Sharper or a rangier Butler. Woodson can't simply be replaced with a physical corner. Wood's peak years for the Packers were 2009 and then 2010, and the way he was utilized in the "W" role. My view is that they don't have a single guy on the roster that can play that role; what you seem to be arguing is that they can replace his skills effectively with a group of guys. I think that's probably true, but then you don't have that one guy that can do three things on the field: cover like a DB, tackle like an ILB/safety, pass rush like an OLB.

Safety is a position where a blue chipper might pop up in the second round like Collins did, more often than a CB.

Woodson's unique skill set definitely will need to be replaced by more than one player, but unlike Polamalu and the Steelers, I think the D can adjust to not having one guy do it all. They demonstrated this for most of this season.

However, Collins role has not been replaced. And I think it will be easier to find one guy to be Collins than Woodson.

[sharpe1027]

Safety is a position where a blue chipper might pop up in the second round like Collins did, more often than a CB.

Woodson's unique skill set definitely will need to be replaced by more than one player, but unlike Polamalu and the Steelers, I think the D can adjust to not having one guy do it all. They demonstrated this for most of this season.

However, Collins role has not been replaced. And I think it will be easier to find one guy to be Collins than Woodson.

I would think that by losing the range of Collins, they lost more options than they did with the loss of Woodson. Woodson was the type of player that did his job and then made all sorts of plays above and beyond his duties. Without him, they lose some of the truly special plays, but the defense still probably had most all of the same options available.

[mraynrand]

And I think it will be easier to find one guy to be Collins than Woodson.

that's the part I wholeheartedly agree with.

[Pugger]

I always thought Cecil was terrible. He was the king of dive at receiver, miss tackle because you can't wrap up when traveling head first with feet in air.

I never cared for Cecil either.

[Pugger]

It will be very interesting to see how we handle Woodson this offseason. This is going to be a delicate situation. Here we have a sure fire HOF player who clearly is past his prime. How do you tell him to hang up his cleats without insulting the man if he feels he can still contribute?

[Joemailman]

It will be very interesting to see how we handle Woodson this offseason. This is going to be a delicate situation. Here we have a sure fire HOF player who clearly is past his prime. How do you tell him to hang up his cleats without insulting the man if he feels he can still contribute?

So the Packers might have to tell a future HOF player they don't want him back? What could possibly go wrong?

[Brandon494]

The defense was soft for sure this season, I think we missed Bishop more than we think. Having him back next season along with Nick Perry who I think will eventually excel at his position should add to a better run defense. I also think its time to let go of Hawk, sign a veteran FA on the defense line, and hopefully spend our first 3-4 picks on defense.

[Joemailman]

The defense was soft for sure this season, I think we missed Bishop more than we think. Having him back next season along with Nick Perry who I think will eventually excel at his position should add to a better run defense. I also think its time to let go of Hawk, sign a veteran FA on the defense line, and hopefully spend our first 3-4 picks on defense.

Listen to McGinn talk about Bishop. He agrees that Bishop will make a huge difference. http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/187765171.html

With both Bishop and D.J. Smith coming off serious injuries, I think it will be seen as too risky to release Hawk this year. Hawk survives another year, although he could become a part time player if he doesn't play well. I think Packers draft DL in the 1st or 2nd round this year.

[Brandon494]

Listen to McGinn talk about Bishop. He agrees that Bishop will make a huge difference. http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/187765171.html

With both Bishop and D.J. Smith coming off serious injuries, I think it will be seen as too risky to release Hawk this year. Hawk survives another year, although he could become a part time player if he doesn't play well. I think Packers draft DL in the 1st or 2nd round this year.

Won't be hard to find a cheaper replacement for Hawk.

[Patler]

It will be very interesting to see how we handle Woodson this offseason. This is going to be a delicate situation. Here we have a sure fire HOF player who clearly is past his prime. How do you tell him to hang up his cleats without insulting the man if he feels he can still contribute?

For starters, see if you can talk him into a retirement press conference. A few tearful and emotional goodbyes in front of the media. Should be clear sailing after that.

[Brandon494]

I also wouldn't mind if they signed/drafted a FB who excels at run blocking. I'm tired of us throwing it on 3rd and short because we don't trust our run game. I would still keep Kuhn of course, but just don't like him much as a run blocker.

[rbaloha1]

I also wouldn't mind if they signed/drafted a FB who excels at run blocking. I'm tired of us throwing it on 3rd and short because we don't trust our run game. I would still keep Kuhn of course, but just don't like him much as a run blocker.

Yea, Quinn Johnson looked the part was too inconsistent.

[rbaloha1]

The defense was soft for sure this season, I think we missed Bishop more than we think. Having him back next season along with Nick Perry who I think will eventually excel at his position should add to a better run defense. I also think its time to let go of Hawk, sign a veteran FA on the defense line, and hopefully spend our first 3-4 picks on defense.

How many years is going to take to find the right mix of defensive players? Gee Whiz TT.

Hawk has had 2 years of 0 impact plays. Soar off Hawk.

[Joemailman]

How many years is going to take to find the right mix of defensive players? Gee Whiz TT.

Hawk has had 2 years of 0 impact plays. Soar off Hawk.

Well, they did just win the Super Bowl 2 years ago. The difference between 2010 and 2012 isn't Hawk. The difference is that they haven't replaced Nick Collins whose career ended unexpectedly, and last year they lost Bishop, as well as his backup. If they can draft a top notch Safety, they're not very far away from having a very good defense again.

[Pugger]

Well, they did just win the Super Bowl 2 years ago. The difference between 2010 and 2012 isn't Hawk. The difference is that they haven't replaced Nick Collins whose career ended unexpectedly, and last year they lost Bishop, as well as his backup. If they can draft a top notch Safety, they're not very far away from having a very good defense again.

Yes, and I'd add another good pass rusher on the D line and/or more speed at LBer.

[RashanGary]

Well, they did just win the Super Bowl 2 years ago. The difference between 2010 and 2012 isn't Hawk. The difference is that they haven't replaced Nick Collins whose career ended unexpectedly, and last year they lost Bishop, as well as his backup. If they can draft a top notch Safety, they're not very far away from having a very good defense again.

Agree. And I think we could do it a number of other ways (if we found star power at another spot.) The absolute ideal player for me, on this D, would be Nick Collins. Unfortunately, he was the best at what he did in the league when we had him. IMO Nick Collins is the most underrated GB Packer of the last 5 years or so.

[Iron Mike]

I'm not at the point yet where I think the Packers need a high draft pick to be competitive, but there is an argument to be made that having an off year can net you a blue chipper; we'll just ignore AJ Hawk for sake of this argument.

Or, like the 49ers, Buccaneers or Lions, just be terrible for a decade to collect talent.

Seems to be more the Minnesota m.o...... sell out on the FA route once you reach competitiveness to get over the playoff-loss hump, fail miserably, then suck for 3-5 years and stockpile young talent until the team becomes relevant again.

[sharpe1027]

IMO, a problem with some GMs and coaches is that they have pressure to show immediate results or else they are out the door. This prohibits them from focusing on what is best for the long term success of the team. It is rather like a government in which the politicians are so focused on getting reelected in two years that long term planning is impossible.

The Packers won their division, won a playoff game and lost the the eventual NFC champion, and we are all calling it a "down" year. I'm not 100% satisfied unless they win the SB, but I sure as hell hope they don't overreact to one game and stay the course for the long haul.

[mraynrand]

It is rather like a government in which the politicians are so focused on getting reelected in two years that long term planning is impossible.

FYI, please

[sharpe1027]

FYI, please

An excellent job of ignoring the context. Bravo.

[mraynrand]

An excellent job of ignoring the context. Bravo.


QFT - you catch on real fast

[Fritz]

Bring back Johnny jolly! So he hasn't played in 3 years, so what? He's fresh!

Why not? He's not god's gift, but he fit he scheme. And tipped a lot of balls.

[RashanGary]

I'd rather have a fork shoved up my ass than talk about fullbacks.

[ThunderDan]

I'd rather have a fork shoved up my ass than talk about fullbacks.

Personally, I would rather talk about fullbacks.

[mraynrand]

I'd rather have a fork shoved up my ass than talk about fullbacks.

I can arrange that

[Freak Out]

Forks or Fullbacks....that is the question.

[Iron Mike]

Needs to be in the "Fork You" thread. :)