If the Ray Lewis situation with the stabbings happened now

[Patler]

If Ray Lewis' situation with the stabbings happened in the last few years, what punishment would Roger Goodell have handed out? Lewis was indicted for murder, but reached a plea deal for obstruction of justice in return for his testimony. He reached financial settlements with the families of the victims.

Apparently, Johnny Jolly has been banned for life for what he did and was involved in.
Should Lewis have gotten any less if it happened now?

[Jimx29]

im just sick to death of even hearing his name. glad today is finally here so it will go away

[Bretsky]

Don't you think Jolly is gone forever because he was nailed for multiple offenses. Maybe I don't remember, but wasn't this a one time occurance ?

With that being said, I think odds are Lewis would have received a half year to full year suspension right now

[Patler]

Don't you think Jolly is gone forever because he was nailed for multiple offenses. Maybe I don't remember, but wasn't this a one time occurance ?

With that being said, I think odds are Lewis would have received a half year to full year suspension right now

Jolly had multiple offenses involving a personal addiction.
Lewis' situation involved a double homicide.

Basically, Jolly was hurting himself. Whatever Lewis's involvement was, it was in regard to the murders of two young men. Not much of a comparison, in my opinion.

[Bretsky]

I doubt Lewis would have received a lifetime ban. A year....would not surprise me

[Patler]

I doubt Lewis would have received a lifetime ban. A year....would not surprise me

Probably not, because he is Ray Lewis.
No body seems to care about Johnny Jolly.
Kind of sad.

[Bretsky]

completely agree.....also sad for Jolly............so he was a junkee dealer........if rehabbed..............I'd like him to get another shot..plus...we could use him

[woodbuck27]

Jolly had multiple offenses involving a personal addiction.
Lewis' situation involved a double homicide.

Basically, Jolly was hurting himself. Whatever Lewis's involvement was, it was in regard to the murders of two young men. Not much of a comparison, in my opinion.

Damn.

Are you now 'judge and jury' in regards to Ray Lewis's life? How do you live with being so judgementle?

Was Ray Lewis ever convicted of any crime in that case? Yes or no?

Right....so where are you going with this nonsence?

[Joemailman]

Damn.

Are you now 'judge and jury' in regards to Ray Lewis's life? How do you live with being so judgementle?

Was Ray Lewis ever convicted of any crime in that case? Yes or no?

Right....so where are you going with this nonsence?

He pleaded guilty of obstruction of justice in a double homicide.


Only Lewis pleaded guilty in relation to the case: for obstruction of justice, a misdemeanor. He originally was charged with two counts of murder but struck a deal with prosecutors in exchange for his testimony against two of his companions that night, Reginald Oakley and Joseph Sweeting.

Lewis never directly linked his two friends to the killings, and they were acquitted. Lewis had testified that Oakley, Sweeting and another man had gone to a sporting goods store the previous day to buy knives. Baker's blood later was found in Lewis' limo. Having fled the crime scene, Lewis told the limo's passengers to "keep their mouths shut." The white suit Lewis was wearing that night — on Super Bowl Sunday — never was found./

Lewis I believe turned his life around after this incident and became a better person. But it certainly appears he was involved in some way, and did not pay much of a price for it.

[MadtownPacker]

Obviously Patler doesn't like Ray Lewis but Woody you're out of line for thinking somehow he cant express that and start a thread. It is actually a very legit topic. So slow your "nonsense" down buddy.

[MadtownPacker]

You would think based on the current standards it would be a year at least. Goodell seems to punish based on the negative attention it brings and the murder was bad press for sure. But it happened under different rules and he played that system to his advantage.

[Patler]

Damn.

Are you now 'judge and jury' in regards to Ray Lewis's life? How do you live with being so judgementle?

Was Ray Lewis ever convicted of any crime in that case? Yes or no?

Right....so where are you going with this nonsence?

Sometimes I seriously wonder if you can or do actually read what I write.

Judgmental? I very specifically and carefully worded my statement so as not to imply anything beyond what actually happened. To that end I have written that:

He was indicted for murder - Fact.
He reached a deal and plead guilty to obstruction of justice during the investigation of the murder in return for his testimony - Fact.
He reached financial settlements with the families of both murder victims - Fact.

Beyond that, all I wrote was what you quoted:

Jolly had multiple offenses involving a personal addiction.
Lewis' situation involved a double homicide.

Basically, Jolly was hurting himself. Whatever Lewis's involvement was, it was in regard to the murders of two young men. Not much of a comparison, in my opinion.

Did I say he was convicted of a crime? No I did not. I was very careful not to allege anything by writing that his "situation involved a double murder" and further: "Whatever Lewis involvement was, it was in regard to the murders of two young men." I neither alleged, inferred nor remotely suggested that he performed any particular act beyond that which he admitted.

Please identify any part of my statements that are false, judgmental, or not 100% based on fact.

Goodell has punished many players who have not committed crimes for which they were convicted, and has based those punishments on their association with an activity that brought detrimental notoriety to themselves and the league. We have had many discussions on here about the heavy hand with which he has been dealing player punishment for actions both on and off the field. Because of that, I thought it might be an interesting discussion for the off season to consider what he might do to a player who:

- admitted to being at the scene of a double murder, even if he admitted no specific knowledge of what occurred.
- was indicted for double murder.
- was in the company of two friends also indicted for the two murders.
- was willing to plead guilty to obstruction of justice during the investigation of those murders.
- agreed to cash settlements with the families of both victims (reportedly for millions of dollars).


As to my opinion that there is no comparison between the case of Johnny Jolly and that of Ray Lewis, I stand by that, based on the information I have from public reports. I have little patience for someone who would obstruct the investigation of the murders of two young men, which Ray Lewis in fact plead guilty to. For me, bringing murders to justice is more important than punishing someone for a personal addiction (Johnny Jolly).

I actually thought this might turn into more of a discussion about Goodell and they way in which he determines player punishment. Instead, you are now trying to turn it into a personal discussion about me.

Why is that?

Instead of asking where this is going, maybe you should just remain silent for a bit a see where the thread does go instead of trying to turn it into a discussion about me or my motives in starting it.

Personally, I think the Roger Goodell of 2010-2012, if presented the facts of the Ray Lewis situation, would have given him much more than a simple fine.

Heck, Goodell suspended players for obstructing the leagues investigation into player bounties. Do you think he wouldn't suspend someone for obstructing the investigation of a double murder????

[Cheesehead Craig]

Great topic Patler.

My opinions on how Goodell would have handled it:
- Year long suspension for Lewis, no question.
- Independent investigation by the NFL about the situation and they would come up with their own story of what happened and not just rely on the courts.
- Likely a "parole type" hearing after the year suspension to review how Ray has been since the incident. Goodell can use this type of hearing to prolong the suspension depending on public sentiment of how the case was handled in the courts.

Goodell is very conscious of how the public perceives him and and the NFL, moreso than previous commisioners IMO. He doesn't want to appear soft or that he letting the inmates run the asylumn, so to speak.

I think an equally good question would be: What would the Ravens as an organization have done if it happened today? I wonder how many years Ray had on his contract at the time? If he was suspended for a season or two, would the team have released him instead of keeping a player under contract who wasn't playing and obviously in the commish's doghouse (assuming a multiple year ban as stated above)? This of course is all supposition on my part. I wonder how many years Ray had on his contract at the time.

[mraynrand]

Sometimes I seriously wonder if you can or do actually read what I write.

judgementle nonsence

[mraynrand]

I suspect whatever Goodell decided, he'd have several armed body guards with him during the 'interview' with Lewis.

[Patler]

I think an equally good question would be: What would the Ravens as an organization have done if it happened today? I wonder how many years Ray had on his contract at the time? If he was suspended for a season or two, would the team have released him instead of keeping a player under contract who wasn't playing and obviously in the commish's doghouse (assuming a multiple year ban as stated above)? This of course is all supposition on my part. I wonder how many years Ray had on his contract at the time.

That is a great question. The league now also holds teams responsible for their players' conduct. Sort of a "one-bite" rule. After a player has screwed up once, the team is expected to work at getting him to toe the line. As a result, many teams are cutting ties with players very early in investigations. If it had happened today the same as then, it is possible the Ravens would have released Lewis soon after he was indicted for murder, before any plea deal was reached.

[sharpe1027]

Some interesting comparisons. There is no dispute that Lewis was involved in an initial illegal cover-up. The questions I have are 1) was there evidence to discipline him for anything else, and if not, 2) how long of a suspension should he get for the initial cover-up?

Goodell does not rely upon the criminal/civil courts to determine disciplinary action. Based upon his decisions with players like Jolly, he probably would not have accepted the plea deal sentence as the end of the matter. Still, other than obstruction of justice, what evidence would Goodell have had on Lewis? Perhaps not as much as it seems. Lewis admitted to initially trying to cover up the incident, but he then testified that he saw the stabbing of Baker (in exchange for a plea deal, which some articles suggest was offered as much for the lack of evidence as it was for his testimony.)

I'm not so sure Lewis would have gotten a year long suspension just for initially covering up the incident. In Jolly's case, there is absolutely no doubt that he personally did a series of acts leading to his suspension. For Lewis, it's really just one incident. While the seriousness of murder is without a doubt the critical factor, it's not difficult to understand his initial reaction -- even if he was not part of the fight at all.

To me, the difficulty for Goodell would have been whether to go beyond the obstruction charge. For that alone, I doubt the suspension would have been extensive. If Goodell went further and speculated about Lewis's involvement, he would have risked losing if Lewis challenged.

[Rutnstrut]

Ray Lewis was an accessory to murder, obstruction was just a nicer way of saying it and has a lesser punishment. Jolly is an addict/dealer, which I detest but imo it's a not as bad of a crime.

[smuggler]

Why is everyone calling Jolly a dealer? That was the sentence they tried to hammer him with, but it was based on a technicality because Texans can't do math. He was an end user.

[woodbuck27]

He pleaded guilty of obstruction of justice in a double homicide.



Lewis I believe turned his life around after this incident and became a better person. But it certainly appears he was involved in some way, and did not pay much of a price for it.

Lewis pleaded guilty in relation to the case: for obstruction of justice, a misdemeanor.

[Patler]

Lewis pleaded guilty in relation to the case: for obstruction of justice, a misdemeanor.

What's your point?

[woodbuck27]

Obviously Patler doesn't like Ray Lewis but Woody you're out of line for thinking somehow he cant express that and start a thread. It is actually a very legit topic. So slow your "nonsense" down buddy.

Sure.

[MadtownPacker]

Sure.
Thanks and let's keep that in mind for future threads and posts. You don't decide what is or isn't allowed here.

[woodbuck27]

Thanks and let's keep that in mind for future threads and posts. You don't decide what is or isn't allowed here.

That's never been my position to decide such a thing. I'm simply a member of Packerrats.

I have a different attitude concerning certain respect than some here. I don't want to bend that into certain argument.

[Zool]

Following a Super Bowl XXXIV party in Atlanta on January 31, 2000, a fight broke out between Lewis and his companions and another group of people, resulting in the stabbing deaths of Jacinth Baker and Richard Lollar. Lewis and two companions, Reginald Oakley and Joseph Sweeting, were questioned by Atlanta police, and 11 days later the three men were indicted on murder and aggravated-assault charges. The fight occurred about 200 yards from the Cobalt Lounge at 265 East Paces Ferry Road in the Buckhead Village neighborhood about two miles north of downtown Atlanta where Lewis had been celebrating. The white suit Lewis was wearing the night of the killings has never been found. Fulton County District Attorney Paul Howard alleged the blood-stained suit was dumped in a garbage bin outside a fast food restaurant. A knife found at the scene did not have any fingerprints or DNA. Lewis subsequently testified that Oakley and Sweeting had bought knives earlier in Super Bowl week from a Sports Authority where Lewis had been signing autographs. Baker's blood was found inside of Lewis's limousine.

Lewis' attorneys, Don Samuel and Ed Garland, of the Atlanta law firm Garland, Samuel & Loeb, negotiated a plea agreement with Howard, where the murder charges against Lewis were dismissed in exchange for his testimony against Oakley and Sweeting, and his guilty plea to a misdemeanor charge of obstruction of justice. Lewis admitted he gave a misleading statement to police on the morning after the killings. Superior Court Judge Alice D. Bonner sentenced Lewis to 12 months' probation, the maximum sentence for a first-time offender, and he was fined $250,000 by the NFL, which was believed to be the highest fine levied against an NFL player for an infraction not involving substance abuse. Under the terms of the sentence, Lewis could not use drugs or alcohol during the duration of the probation.
Oakley and Sweeting were acquitted of the charges in June 2000. No other suspects have ever been arrested for the crime.
The following year, Lewis was named Super Bowl XXXV MVP. However, the signature phrase "I'm going to Disney World!" was given instead to quarterback Trent Dilfer.

On April 29, 2004, Lewis reached a settlement with four-year-old India Lollar, born months after the death of her father Richard, pre-empting a scheduled civil proceeding. Lewis also reached an undisclosed settlement with Baker's family

[SkinBasket]

Maybe if Ray Lewis and his friends had stabbed woodbuck's boyfriend to death he would feel differently about the incident and being "judgmental" about a guy who was 1/3 of a group who murdered two other guys, fled the scene, lied about it, then finally reluctantly gave "testimony" to save his own ass and threw piles of money at everyone else involved to stay quiet.

But I'm sure he's a real nice fella. Kind of like a black Jesus. Who stabs people. And lets others take the fall for it. Which is kind of the opposite of Jesus.

[MadtownPacker]

Sounds like the trash was just taking itself out.

[SkinBasket]

Sounds like the trash was just taking itself out.

Well then Ray Lewis is like the bloody tampon that falls out of the garbage bag that no one wants to pick up. Especially with the white suit and all.

[MadtownPacker]

That's a fair way of putting it.

[pbmax]

I wonder what the story is with that knife. Having no traces on it at all is almost more strange than if the owner's fingerprints were all over it or a sheath. Did they have time to wipe down the crime scene?

[sharpe1027]

I wonder what the story is with that knife. Having no traces on it at all is almost more strange than if the owner's fingerprints were all over it or a sheath. Did they have time to wipe down the crime scene?
Someone borrowed some gloves from OJ.
If the glove don't fit you must acquit!

[Cheesehead Craig]

That is a great question. The league now also holds teams responsible for their players' conduct. Sort of a "one-bite" rule. After a player has screwed up once, the team is expected to work at getting him to toe the line. As a result, many teams are cutting ties with players very early in investigations. If it had happened today the same as then, it is possible the Ravens would have released Lewis soon after he was indicted for murder, before any plea deal was reached.

Given Ray's ability on the field I wonder if they would have cut ties with him. He likely would have been suspended w/o pay and I don't know what the cap ramifications are for that (if it would still have counted) but with a superstar, I would think they would have held on to his rights as long as possible.

[KYPack]

Man, Ray Ray had a dog shit SB. In terms of his own play, that is.

Guess God was on coffee break from looking down on his biggest booster.

He was slow, made bad reads and was generally in Jeff Saturday mode the whole game.

He played at a depth of 5 - 10 yards the whole game, just trying to get into position to cover and fill.

He's beyond done.

[run pMc]

He WAS a good LB, he's well past his prime and between his history and histrionics I'm glad he's retiring. He'll make HOF but wonder if he goes first ballot.
If the stabbing happened today I think BAL would hang onto his rights and let it play out...but I think Lewis would've been done for at least 8 games if not a full season. It would be a similar to bountygate.

[mraynrand]

I recorded Ray Lewis' entry into Baltimore stadium for his last home game so I could watch it again and again. That's great entertainment!

[pbmax]

Man, Ray Ray had a dog shit SB. In terms of his own play, that is.

Guess God was on coffee break from looking down on his biggest booster.

He was slow, made bad reads and was generally in Jeff Saturday mode the whole game.

He played at a depth of 5 - 10 yards the whole game, just trying to get into position to cover and fill.

He's beyond done.

The Niners got him in coverage with Davis twice early and I think completed both passes (I def remember one of them). But I didn't see it again. I am assuming the Ravens stopped doing that after the second one. I can't imagine Roman abandoning that matchup esp. since he went to it so early.

[George Cumby]

Well then Ray Lewis is like the bloody tampon that falls out of the garbage bag that no one wants to pick up. Especially with the white suit and all.

This post is so gross that it actually borders on poetry. But is it Art?

[Bossman641]

The Niners got him in coverage with Davis twice early and I think completed both passes (I def remember one of them). But I didn't see it again. I am assuming the Ravens stopped doing that after the second one. I can't imagine Roman abandoning that matchup esp. since he went to it so early.

I saw him matched up on Crabtree in the middle of the field pretty early on. Crabtree made a nice catch, slipped the tackle, and picked up around 20 yards.

[KYPack]

I saw him matched up on Crabtree in the middle of the field pretty early on. Crabtree made a nice catch, slipped the tackle, and picked up around 20 yards.

Ray was SLOW.

I saw a replay of SF running a sweep to Lewis' side.

Ray took a miss step at the line and then tried to go lateral.

The other ILB (Ellerbe?) went sideways immediately, passed Ray who was just getting moving, and made the tackle on the opposite sideline.

Ray moved about 7 yards to his left and was never involved in the play.

I thought, Christ, this guy is a joke.

Several times, Ray's pre-snap technique was behind the umpire.

Lucky he wasn't playing baseball.