Dynasty

[denverYooper]

Is unlikely to happen for the Ravens.

@AlfieBCC:

The Ravens will be interesting this offseason. Have a lot of impending UFA's, ballooning contracts, Flacco and $15M in space

Guys like Ellerbee, Pitta, Jones, McKinnie, Dickson, Kemoeatu, Reed, Johnson (CB), and Williams (CB) all UFAs. (Then Flacco)

Pitta is an RFA according to Spotrac.

Kruger is also a UFA and will probably command some dough.

Ray Lewis and Matt Birk are retiring.

[denverYooper]

A case could possibly have been made for the 49ers but since they lost, that is moot.

Things will only get harder for them, as they're going to lose Alex Smith and will need a quality backup. Their division is tough and they have been on a good run of injury luck. Teams now have an offseason to study their offense and they need to shore up the back end of their D.

We still don't know if they're not just the next version of the Reid/McNabb Eagles.

[Guiness]

Is unlikely to happen for the Ravens.

@AlfieBCC:


Pitta is an RFA according to Spotrac.

Kruger is also a UFA and will probably command some dough.

Ray Lewis and Matt Birk are retiring.

Kruger is going to get a big contract - didn't know he was UFA.

[rbaloha1]

Both teams are positioned for multiple s-b opportunities due to age of roster and stable management.

[Patler]

Both teams are positioned for multiple s-b opportunities due to age of roster and stable management.

That is exactly what was being said about the Packers just two years ago. They were the team to emulate, having a roster so deep and so talented that they shrugged off a long, long list of injuries to win the SB, while being one of the youngest teams in the league.

Things change very quickly in the NFL

[mraynrand]

That is exactly what was being said about the Packers just two years ago. They were the team to emulate, having a roster so deep and so talented that they shrugged off a long, long list of injuries to win the SB, while being one of the youngest teams in the league.

Things change very quickly in the NFL

And they stay the same: The Packers are an extremely well-run organization, a GM that builds for depth and, and with a coaching staff that makes the best use of what they have, and doesn't carp about injuries. Packers are one of the handful of teams well-positioned to win the SB next year.

The modern NFL destroys dynasties, but a good organization and a few exceptional players in key positions can get you multiple titles.

[denverYooper]

That is exactly what was being said about the Packers just two years ago. They were the team to emulate, having a roster so deep and so talented that they shrugged off a long, long list of injuries to win the SB, while being one of the youngest teams in the league.

Things change very quickly in the NFL

This is pretty much my point in starting the thread.

Only 2 years ago, the Packers were the dynasty and McGinn was writing of multiple rings. McCarthy was considered a genius in his use of formations. Now they're washed up and far from elite. The fact of the matter is that the Packers are positioned as well as any in today's NFL.

[rbaloha1]

That is exactly what was being said about the Packers just two years ago. They were the team to emulate, having a roster so deep and so talented that they shrugged off a long, long list of injuries to win the SB, while being one of the youngest teams in the league.

Things change very quickly in the NFL

The packers won the super bowl with 15 players on injured reserve.

The injury problem continues. Any correlation with the packers roster being physically smaller than the better teams and injuries.

YOU GUYS AFTER GET OVER 2 Years AGO -- THE LEAGUE AND PACKER ROSTER HAS CHANGED.

[denverYooper]

Another perennial player, the Giants are 9.15 million over the estimated 2013 salary cap:

http://www.bigblueview.com/2013/1/23/3904760/new-york-giants-are-9-15-million-over-2013-estimated-nfl-salary-cap


What can the Giants do to get under the cap? They can either re-structure the contracts of some highly-paid veteran players, or release them. Here is a look at how much the Giants could save against the cap by releasing highly-paid veteran players entering the final years of their contracts.

Corey Webster
2013 cap number: $9.845M
Dead money charge: $2.595M
Cap Savings: $7.25M
David Diehl
2013 cap number: $6.575M
Dead money charge: $2.125M
Cap Savings: $4.45M

Justin Tuck
2013 cap number: $6.15M
Dead money charge: $1.5M
Cap Savings: $4.65M

Michael Boley
2013 cap number: $5.9M
Dead money charge: $1.4M
Cap Savings: $4.5M




Re-structuring contracts is another way to improve the salary cap situation. Quarterback Eli Manning has a $20.85 million cap hit for 2013 and safety Antrel Rolle has a cap number of $9.25 million. Corry sees both as obvious candidates for re-structuring.


The Giants also have to figure out how to handle negotiations with wide receiver Victor Cruz, a restricted free agent. The Giants could franchise him at a cost of $10.357 million against the cap, which Corry said "would be a waste." They could also give him the first-round RFA tender, which would count $2.879 million against the cap.

[denverYooper]

The packers won the super bowl with 15 players on injured reserve.

The injury problem continues. Any correlation with the packers roster being physically smaller than the better teams and injuries.

YOU GUYS AFTER GET OVER 2 Years AGO -- THE LEAGUE AND PACKER ROSTER HAS CHANGED.

Where are they physically smaller?

[rbaloha1]

Another perennial player, the Giants are 9.15 million over the estimated 2013 salary cap:

http://www.bigblueview.com/2013/1/23/3904760/new-york-giants-are-9-15-million-over-2013-estimated-nfl-salary-cap

Giants have issues. Their window may have closed temporarily.

[denverYooper]

Where are they physically smaller?

Playing physical football is a mindset, not a size thing.

[rbaloha1]

Where are they physically smaller?

Overall weight of the team -- recall article saying the Packers average weight was 242 lbs. which was much smaller than the current elite teams.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Both teams are positioned for multiple s-b opportunities due to age of roster and stable management.

SB teams have a habit of getting their FA taken away by other teams as their value goes up and the teams they played for tend not to be able to afford those players.

I'm not buying that Balt is set up for multiple SBs over the next few years. Losing Lewis is going to be huge. They also have other FAs that may not come back and all it takes is a few key cogs to leave and the whole team chemistry and performance is really hurt. I think we've seen that first hand. Plus you know Flacco is going to get PAID which is going to limit their cap flexibility.

SF has a solid shot depending on how young Kapernick progresses as a QB and how the rest of the league adapts to defending the read-option.

[ThunderDan]

That is a hoot. My mom who only watches the Super Bowl kept commenting on how skinny the Ravens were.

[denverYooper]

Overall weight of the team -- recall article saying the Packers average weight was 242 lbs. which was much smaller than the current elite teams.

Interesting theory, but a quick download + average of Packers team weight from packers.com shows 247.7 lbs.

Do you have a link?

[rbaloha1]

Playing physical football is a mindset, not a size thing.

1. Why not start a d-line of Mike Daniels types?

2. Did you ever strap up a jock strap?

3. Do you sell used cars?

[rbaloha1]

That is a hoot. My mom who only watches the Super Bowl kept commenting on how skinny the Ravens were.

Boy, Ngata, Keomatu, Cody, Mckinne sure look skinny to me.:oops:

[denverYooper]

Interesting theory, but a quick download + average of Packers team weight from packers.com shows 247.7 lbs.

Do you have a link?

Ravens average team weight = 249.8
49ers average team weight = 244.6

[Patler]

The packers won the super bowl with 15 players on injured reserve.

The injury problem continues. Any correlation with the packers roster being physically smaller than the better teams and injuries.

YOU GUYS AFTER GET OVER 2 Years AGO -- THE LEAGUE AND PACKER ROSTER HAS CHANGED.

Isn't that exactly what I wrote, that the Packers are evidence of how things can change very quickly in the NFL?
Two or three years from now, SF, Seattle and the like very well might be the teams with the predictable offenses in need of updating.

So long as a team continually brings in talented players and makes few huge errors in player salaries, and the coaching staff remains innovative, they will have a chance for a run to the SB.

[denverYooper]

1. Why not start a d-line of Mike Daniels types?

2. Did you ever strap up a jock strap?

3. Do you sell used cars?

You sure take the internet personally.

[rbaloha1]

Typical used car data

As per Mcginn, which i shall trust over used car stuff:

Current Packers: 242.9 -- ranks 27th in the league


New Orleans - Before one of the San Francisco 49ers' two convincing victories over the Green Bay Packers, Brad Seely paused to take a closer look at the opponent during warm-ups.

Seely, one of the most respected special-teams coaches in the business, won three Super Bowl rings with New England. He also serves as the 49ers' assistant head coach.

"You look at the (Green Bay) defense, their guys don't look like our defense," Seely recalled thinking to himself. "Their linemen. . . it's, like, 'OK, those guys aren't going to match up very good with our offensive line. They don't have the same look.'"

Seely, an NFL assistant for 24 years, won't see the Baltimore Ravens until late Sunday afternoon in the 47th Super Bowl.

He has, however, spent the last two weeks studying them on tape.

"Baltimore does have the same look," said Seely. "They got the big team we got."

It'll be mass against mass at the Superdome, a clash of the big uglies in a throwback game that the Super Bowl hasn't witnessed in almost a decade.

"They're similar in a lot of ways to us as a football team because they want to play the game the way it's meant to be played," 49ers general manager Trent Baalke said. "They're a physical bunch and they're very well-coached."

Meanwhile, Green Bay, a team that has lost its way when it comes to the critical element of size, will continue plotting its future.

Each year, National Football League staffers perform all forms of calculations on the 53-man rosters that line up for each team on opening day. When it comes to figuring average height and weight, the league is at the mercy of the teams, and even at the pro level there are some club officials who inflate the numbers or simply regard them as unimportant.

Be that as it may, Baltimore ranked as the heaviest team in the NFL in early September with an average weight of 252.8 pounds per man.

When the Packers won the championship two years ago, they ranked 10th at 250.43 pounds. This season, they had shrunk 7½ pounds per player to 242.9 and a 27th-place finish.

"Size and strength is one way to potentially get over the edge," said Bob Rogucki, the Ravens' strength coach since 2008. "If you're undersized, you can't play. Being undersized is not what we're looking for."

The Ravens' love for size is evident in every position group other than tight end, which is just average.

At wide receiver, Anquan Boldin checks in at 225 pounds and the other top three all stand at least 6 feet 1 inch tall and weigh 200-plus.

"There's no doubt we want big men," Ravens wide receivers coach Jim Hostler said. "That's the NFL. Receivers are getting bigger and DBs are getting bigger."

In the offensive line, the Ravens blot out the sun. From left to right, it's Bryant McKinnie (6-8, 354), Kelechi Osemele (6-5½, 325), Matt Birk (6-4½, 305), Marshal Yanda (6-4, 315) and Michael Oher (6-4½, 315). The top backups are tackle Ramon Harewood (6-6, 334) and guard Bobby Williams (6-4, 345).

"They're bigger than us," said an impressed Mike Solari, the coach of the 49ers' massive O-line.

The quarterback, Joe Flacco (6-6, 245), is about as big as they come.

"There's a certain style of football that's played best in the cold," Ravens linebackers coach Ted Monachino said. "Having a big quarterback with big, strong hands helps in weather like that."

Running back Ray Rice (5-8, 212) is short but not so small at all. Backup Bernard Pierce (6-0½, 218) plays extensively and fullback Vonta Leach (6-0, 260) is a classic thumper.

On the defensive line, three monsters - Haloti Ngata (6-4, 345), Ma'ake Kemoeatu (6-4½, 345) and Terrence Cody (6-3½, 341) - rotate at two inside positions. Arthur Jones (6-3, 315) and Pernell McPhee (6-2½, 280) split the five-technique end post in the base 3-4 front.

"Baltimore has always had these big bodies up front to keep blockers off the linebackers," an executive in personnel said. "Kemoeatu is what they're looking for. Some teams just like those big bodies in there."

Forget the program weights at outside linebacker. Monachino said starters Terrell Suggs (6-3½) is 275 and Paul Kruger (6-4½) is 269, and that backup Courtney Upshaw (6-1½) also is 275.

"The No. 1 thing for our defense is to set the edge," said Monachino. "When you have guys that are 275 - big, strong, physical football players - you have a chance to do that.

"Size is a really big thing for us. We love our big football players."

Strong safety Bernard Pollard (6-1½, 223) is the physical enforcer for a defensive backfield that includes free safety Ed Reed (5-11, 205) and cornerbacks Cary Williams (6-1, 195), Corey Graham (6-0, 200), Jimmy Smith (6-2½, 205) and Chykie Brown (5-11½, 195).

"It's a big man's game," said Teryl Austin, who coaches the Ravens' secondary. "You start getting too many small guys and you start getting kicked around and beat. We want good football players, but we want big good football players."

In 1996, Ozzie Newsome faced a serious decision between running back Lawrence Phillips and tackle Jonathan Ogden with the fourth pick in the draft. Not only was it the Ravens' first choice as a franchise, it was Newsome's first running a draft.

His selection was Ogden (6-8, 318), a big man in any era but a certifiable giant back then.

"It goes back to when we were all under Bill Belichick in Cleveland," said Phil Savage, who went on to become director of college scouting under Newsome for nine years and later Browns GM. "We were definitely a size team. The scouting philosophy was size and speed. We had the height-weight-speed charts, and they (the Ravens) still do to this day."

In San Francisco, Baalke made it indelibly clear what kind of team he wanted in 2010 with the top two choices of his first draft. After trading up to land right tackle Anthony Davis (6-5½, 336) at No. 11, he picked left guard Mike Iupati (6-5, 336) at No. 17.

"You have to have the size," Solari said. "We do want to pound you."

The 49ers, who ranked 26th in opening-day average weight, have big wide receivers, the jumbo O-line, large quarterbacks and a big fullback.

Their D-line isn't unduly heavy but there is the desired height.

Outside linebackers Aldon Smith (6-4, 262) and Ahmad Brooks (6-3, 264) are imposing, inside linebackers NaVorro Bowman (6-0½, 242) and Patrick Willis (6-1, 240) are so good their size doesn't matter, two of the top three cornerbacks stand 6-0½ and the safeties are ordinary size.

Baalke's first scouting job was with the New York Jets and Bill Parcells, a strong proponent of size requirement.

"Bigger, stronger, faster probably goes back to his training with Bill Parcells," said Seely. "Our team looks more like an old NFC East team, like the Giants did."

The 49ers also have been almost unscathed by injuries two straight years.

"(Mark) Uyeyama does a fantastic job with the strength program," said Seely, referring to the team's strength coordinator. "Our guys are strong. I think sometimes that reflects in less injuries. You've got to have your players on the field."

The Packers have been besieged by injuries for three straight seasons, which corresponds to Mark Lovat's three seasons as head of their strength department.

At the same time, the Packers have become more of a finesse team with each passing year. Whether it's intentional or not, the Packers have become shorter and lighter with size exceptions dotting their roster.

GM Ted Thompson drafted a 6-2 tight end (D.J. Williams), a 5-10½ inside linebacker (D.J. Smith), a 6-2½ defensive end (Jerel Worthy) and a 6-0½ inside pass rusher (Mike Daniels).

Coach Mike McCarthy simply doesn't want a bulky, block-first tight end. Just 6-4, Marshall Newhouse is one of the shortest left tackles in the league, and if Don Barclay remains at tackle he's 6-4, too.

The D-line has been pygmy-sized for too many years. The Packers keep talking about giving Dom Capers some base ends with length but there still isn't one on the roster taller than 6-3.

Compared to what the Ravens and 49ers set the edge with, Erik Walden (6-2, 245) and Dezman Moses (6-2, 252) are really small. Even the great Clay Matthews (6-3, 255) is becoming a tad undersized for the way power is being emphasized at his position.

At cornerback, the top three players are lean athletes weighing between 184 and 192. Safety Morgan Burnett (6-1½, 209) is ideal size but Jerron McMillian (5-11, 207) and especially M.D. Jennings (6-0, 195) certainly aren't.

It remains to be seen if the Packers wish to venture forward with Evan Dietrich-Smith (6-2½, 308) at center. If so, they know better than anyone that there will be Sundays when size catches up to him.

As wonderfully reckless as DuJuan Harris was down the stretch, he's still a 5-7 back.

There is no one way to win in the NFL. Teams form their rosters around climate, playing surface, divisional opponents and other factors.

Still, a good big man usually will defeat a good little man.

After watching this Super Bowl, it will be fascinating to see how the Packers will proceed putting together a team that must overcome bigger and more powerful opponents such as the Niners and Ravens.

Send email to bmcginn@journalsentinel.com

[rbaloha1]

You sure take the internet personally.

just like you braddah.

[denverYooper]

I made my methodology clear: I went to the team page (Packers, 49ers, Ravens), copied the roster table from each, pasted those tables in Excel, and used the Average function to get the average weight.

No used car stuff, plain and simple. The McGinn article is the one that obscures his method. How did he slice the teams? Starters? 53 man roster? Did he use IR/PUP players? I just used all rostered players, thus got a whole team weight. Straigthforward and simple.

[ThunderDan]

Typical used car data

As per Mcginn, which i shall trust over used car stuff:

Current Packers: 242.9 -- ranks 27th in the league

Send email to bmcginn@journalsentinel.com

This is a funny article. So it is talking about prototypical players and how the Packers are undersized.

Here is the list of my cuts for non-prototypical bodies:
Drew Brees, Russell Wilson, Wes Welker, Ray Rice, DeSean Jackson, Antoine Winfield (Grabby Smurfs twin borther), Steve Smith, Maurice Jones-Drew, Darren Sproles

[denverYooper]

McGinn also uses his favorite old trick of burying inconvenient information. He elides over the detail that, by his method, the 49ers have the 26th heaviest roster in the league. Willis and Bowman, yeah, well, they are just so good their size doesn't matter. Oh, and they have a "jumbo" O-line, "large quarterbacks, and a big fullback". So that all makes up for the fact that they are ever so slightly ahead of the Packers (though we conveniently don't know by how much) in Bob's opening day team size metric.

Baalke gets credit for drafting OL with high draft picks (because the niners sucked enough for enough years to accumulate many) but Thompson gets no credit for drafting Sherrod, a planent-sized human being and Bulaga, who is just tiny.

[wist43]

Can't believe you guys are discussing physicality as if it relates to avg team weight??

Body types, and overall offensive and defensive philosophies are what matter.

Raji is 330 lbs, but he is not a 2-gap player; all of our OL are 300+ pounders, yet they can't drive block to save their lives. Our LB'ers, given that they aren't protected very well by our miscast DL, don't take on and shed well. Our Safeties don't play downhill and bring the kill shot. Our FB is better suited taking swing passes in the flat...

Everything about the Packers is finesse. TT and McCarthy want OL that can get to the 2nd level and block in the open field; TT wants safties that are glorified corners, and wants corners that can cover first - tackling is incidental. Capers wants to play gimmicks with his front seven, so 2-gap DL aren't valued.

The Packers finesse philosophy is fine going up against other finesse teams, but the bully on the block is going to beat us up most of the time, and it shows against teams like the 49er's and Giants.

[denverYooper]

Can't believe you guys are discussing physicality as if it relates to avg team weight??

Body types, and overall offensive and defensive philosophies are what matter.


My point was that team weight doesn't mean that much wrt "physical" vs "finesse".

[wist43]

My point was that team weight doesn't mean that much wrt "physical" vs "finesse".

I agree.

We have one 2-gap defensive lineman on the roster, and he's getting old - quite the head scratcher when you're playing a 3-4. TT brought in some good players, but for the most part they're miscast in the scheme. It was up to Capers to make the pieces work, but of course Capers is an idiot.

Our OL are pass blocking shufflers, and zone blockers who are best suited to being on the move.

In the trenches?? We have a soft philosophies on both sides of the ball. Just the way it is.

[woodbuck27]

Typical used car data

As per Mcginn, which i shall trust over used car stuff:

Current Packers: 242.9 -- ranks 27th in the league


New Orleans - Before one of the San Francisco 49ers' two convincing victories over the Green Bay Packers, Brad Seely paused to take a closer look at the opponent during warm-ups.

Seely, one of the most respected special-teams coaches in the business, won three Super Bowl rings with New England. He also serves as the 49ers' assistant head coach.

"You look at the (Green Bay) defense, their guys don't look like our defense," Seely recalled thinking to himself. "Their linemen. . . it's, like, 'OK, those guys aren't going to match up very good with our offensive line. They don't have the same look.'"

Seely, an NFL assistant for 24 years, won't see the Baltimore Ravens until late Sunday afternoon in the 47th Super Bowl.

He has, however, spent the last two weeks studying them on tape.

"Baltimore does have the same look," said Seely. "They got the big team we got."

It'll be mass against mass at the Superdome, a clash of the big uglies in a throwback game that the Super Bowl hasn't witnessed in almost a decade.

"They're similar in a lot of ways to us as a football team because they want to play the game the way it's meant to be played," 49ers general manager Trent Baalke said. "They're a physical bunch and they're very well-coached."

Meanwhile, Green Bay, a team that has lost its way when it comes to the critical element of size, will continue plotting its future.

Each year, National Football League staffers perform all forms of calculations on the 53-man rosters that line up for each team on opening day. When it comes to figuring average height and weight, the league is at the mercy of the teams, and even at the pro level there are some club officials who inflate the numbers or simply regard them as unimportant.

Be that as it may, Baltimore ranked as the heaviest team in the NFL in early September with an average weight of 252.8 pounds per man.

When the Packers won the championship two years ago, they ranked 10th at 250.43 pounds. This season, they had shrunk 7½ pounds per player to 242.9 and a 27th-place finish.

"Size and strength is one way to potentially get over the edge," said Bob Rogucki, the Ravens' strength coach since 2008. "If you're undersized, you can't play. Being undersized is not what we're looking for."

The Ravens' love for size is evident in every position group other than tight end, which is just average.

At wide receiver, Anquan Boldin checks in at 225 pounds and the other top three all stand at least 6 feet 1 inch tall and weigh 200-plus.

"There's no doubt we want big men," Ravens wide receivers coach Jim Hostler said. "That's the NFL. Receivers are getting bigger and DBs are getting bigger."

In the offensive line, the Ravens blot out the sun. From left to right, it's Bryant McKinnie (6-8, 354), Kelechi Osemele (6-5½, 325), Matt Birk (6-4½, 305), Marshal Yanda (6-4, 315) and Michael Oher (6-4½, 315). The top backups are tackle Ramon Harewood (6-6, 334) and guard Bobby Williams (6-4, 345).

"They're bigger than us," said an impressed Mike Solari, the coach of the 49ers' massive O-line.

The quarterback, Joe Flacco (6-6, 245), is about as big as they come.

"There's a certain style of football that's played best in the cold," Ravens linebackers coach Ted Monachino said. "Having a big quarterback with big, strong hands helps in weather like that."

Running back Ray Rice (5-8, 212) is short but not so small at all. Backup Bernard Pierce (6-0½, 218) plays extensively and fullback Vonta Leach (6-0, 260) is a classic thumper.

On the defensive line, three monsters - Haloti Ngata (6-4, 345), Ma'ake Kemoeatu (6-4½, 345) and Terrence Cody (6-3½, 341) - rotate at two inside positions. Arthur Jones (6-3, 315) and Pernell McPhee (6-2½, 280) split the five-technique end post in the base 3-4 front.

"Baltimore has always had these big bodies up front to keep blockers off the linebackers," an executive in personnel said. "Kemoeatu is what they're looking for. Some teams just like those big bodies in there."

Forget the program weights at outside linebacker. Monachino said starters Terrell Suggs (6-3½) is 275 and Paul Kruger (6-4½) is 269, and that backup Courtney Upshaw (6-1½) also is 275.

"The No. 1 thing for our defense is to set the edge," said Monachino. "When you have guys that are 275 - big, strong, physical football players - you have a chance to do that.

"Size is a really big thing for us. We love our big football players."

Strong safety Bernard Pollard (6-1½, 223) is the physical enforcer for a defensive backfield that includes free safety Ed Reed (5-11, 205) and cornerbacks Cary Williams (6-1, 195), Corey Graham (6-0, 200), Jimmy Smith (6-2½, 205) and Chykie Brown (5-11½, 195).

"It's a big man's game," said Teryl Austin, who coaches the Ravens' secondary. "You start getting too many small guys and you start getting kicked around and beat. We want good football players, but we want big good football players."

In 1996, Ozzie Newsome faced a serious decision between running back Lawrence Phillips and tackle Jonathan Ogden with the fourth pick in the draft. Not only was it the Ravens' first choice as a franchise, it was Newsome's first running a draft.

His selection was Ogden (6-8, 318), a big man in any era but a certifiable giant back then.

"It goes back to when we were all under Bill Belichick in Cleveland," said Phil Savage, who went on to become director of college scouting under Newsome for nine years and later Browns GM. "We were definitely a size team. The scouting philosophy was size and speed. We had the height-weight-speed charts, and they (the Ravens) still do to this day."

In San Francisco, Baalke made it indelibly clear what kind of team he wanted in 2010 with the top two choices of his first draft. After trading up to land right tackle Anthony Davis (6-5½, 336) at No. 11, he picked left guard Mike Iupati (6-5, 336) at No. 17.

"You have to have the size," Solari said. "We do want to pound you."

The 49ers, who ranked 26th in opening-day average weight, have big wide receivers, the jumbo O-line, large quarterbacks and a big fullback.

Their D-line isn't unduly heavy but there is the desired height.

Outside linebackers Aldon Smith (6-4, 262) and Ahmad Brooks (6-3, 264) are imposing, inside linebackers NaVorro Bowman (6-0½, 242) and Patrick Willis (6-1, 240) are so good their size doesn't matter, two of the top three cornerbacks stand 6-0½ and the safeties are ordinary size.

Baalke's first scouting job was with the New York Jets and Bill Parcells, a strong proponent of size requirement.

"Bigger, stronger, faster probably goes back to his training with Bill Parcells," said Seely. "Our team looks more like an old NFC East team, like the Giants did."

The 49ers also have been almost unscathed by injuries two straight years.

"(Mark) Uyeyama does a fantastic job with the strength program," said Seely, referring to the team's strength coordinator. "Our guys are strong. I think sometimes that reflects in less injuries. You've got to have your players on the field."

The Packers have been besieged by injuries for three straight seasons, which corresponds to Mark Lovat's three seasons as head of their strength department.

At the same time, the Packers have become more of a finesse team with each passing year. Whether it's intentional or not, the Packers have become shorter and lighter with size exceptions dotting their roster.

GM Ted Thompson drafted a 6-2 tight end (D.J. Williams), a 5-10½ inside linebacker (D.J. Smith), a 6-2½ defensive end (Jerel Worthy) and a 6-0½ inside pass rusher (Mike Daniels).

Coach Mike McCarthy simply doesn't want a bulky, block-first tight end. Just 6-4, Marshall Newhouse is one of the shortest left tackles in the league, and if Don Barclay remains at tackle he's 6-4, too.

The D-line has been pygmy-sized for too many years. The Packers keep talking about giving Dom Capers some base ends with length but there still isn't one on the roster taller than 6-3.

Compared to what the Ravens and 49ers set the edge with, Erik Walden (6-2, 245) and Dezman Moses (6-2, 252) are really small. Even the great Clay Matthews (6-3, 255) is becoming a tad undersized for the way power is being emphasized at his position.

At cornerback, the top three players are lean athletes weighing between 184 and 192. Safety Morgan Burnett (6-1½, 209) is ideal size but Jerron McMillian (5-11, 207) and especially M.D. Jennings (6-0, 195) certainly aren't.

It remains to be seen if the Packers wish to venture forward with Evan Dietrich-Smith (6-2½, 308) at center. If so, they know better than anyone that there will be Sundays when size catches up to him.

As wonderfully reckless as DuJuan Harris was down the stretch, he's still a 5-7 back.

There is no one way to win in the NFL. Teams form their rosters around climate, playing surface, divisional opponents and other factors.

Still, a good big man usually will defeat a good little man.

After watching this Super Bowl, it will be fascinating to see how the Packers will proceed putting together a team that must overcome bigger and more powerful opponents such as the Niners and Ravens.

Send email to bmcginn@journalsentinel.com

bmcginn@journalsentinel.com ???

Who is the author of this post above?

[Guiness]

back on topic...Baltimore is in trouble with Flacco as well. A PFT article explains it well, they chose not to negotiate with him last year and now he's won an SB MVP and is a UFA. $20million/year, baby!

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/02/04/ravens-will-be-forced-to-use-exclusive-franchise-tag-on-flacco/

[pbmax]

Ravens average team weight = 249.8
49ers average team weight = 244.6

There you go with facts when someone knows something to be true when they see it.

[hoosier]

My point was that team weight doesn't mean that much wrt "physical" vs "finesse".

You are wrong, if they re-signed Gilbert Brown and Grady Jackson to replace Wilson and Neal, and Jeremiah Trotter and Levon Kirkland to replace Hawk and Jones/Bishop, they would then be positioned to compete with the BIG BOYS. Replace Matthews with Sean Merriman and you have the number 1 defense in the NFL.

[denverYooper]

back on topic...Baltimore is in trouble with Flacco as well. A PFT article explains it well, they chose not to negotiate with him last year and now he's won an SB MVP and is a UFA. $20million/year, baby!

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/02/04/ravens-will-be-forced-to-use-exclusive-franchise-tag-on-flacco/

The Tipper: "A wager for the ages"
http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/A-wager-for-the-ages.html

[smuggler]

You are wrong, if they re-signed Gilbert Brown and Grady Jackson to replace Wilson and Neal, and Jeremiah Trotter and Levon Kirkland to replace Hawk and Jones/Bishop, they would then be positioned to compete with the BIG BOYS. Replace Matthews with Sean Merriman and you have the number 1 defense in the NFL.

Did you misunderstand him or are you employing that sarcasm stuff?

[Guiness]

You are wrong, if they re-signed Gilbert Brown and Grady Jackson to replace Wilson and Neal, and Jeremiah Trotter and Levon Kirkland to replace Hawk and Jones/Bishop, they would then be positioned to compete with the BIG BOYS. Replace Matthews with Sean Merriman and you have the number 1 defense in the NFL.

I wonder if Jamarcus Russell can play D? He been talking of making a comeback, and he's over 300lbs!

[rbaloha1]

This is a funny article. So it is talking about prototypical players and how the Packers are undersized.

Here is the list of my cuts for non-prototypical bodies:
Drew Brees, Russell Wilson, Wes Welker, Ray Rice, DeSean Jackson, Antoine Winfield (Grabby Smurfs twin borther), Steve Smith, Maurice Jones-Drew, Darren Sproles

There are exceptions.

The apologist/denial for the Packers by this board is laughable.

Mcginn has access to more stuff than any rat that pretends to know football.

Imbiciles breeding Imbiciles. :wow:

The Packers lack of size and physicality only allows winning the north which appears to be the rat consensus.

[rbaloha1]

There you go with facts when someone knows something to be true when they see it.

Sorry I go with Mcginn over a novice.

Keep wiping each other's butts. :bclap:

[hoosier]

I wonder if Jamarcus Russell can play D? He been talking of making a comeback, and he's over 300lbs!

Do you think he still has his 4.8 speed? If so, he's a STRONG safety!

[hoosier]

Did you misunderstand him or are you employing that sarcasm stuff?

Yeah, I kind of got carried away with the new discovery that bigger is better. Sam Adams, anyone?

[mraynrand]

Yeah, I kind of got carried away with the new discovery that bigger is better. Sam Adams, anyone?

Don't mind if I do!

http://justbeer.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/sam-adams-winter-lager.gif

[Patler]

Sorry I go with Mcginn over a novice.

Keep wiping each other's butts. :bclap:

So, you bow in adoration to a writer who basically ignores that the guys TT drafted in the first rounds of successive drafts to be the starting OT's are 6'6" and 6'5" because they don't fit neatly into his "the Packers don't get it" storyline? The fact that smaller players were playing because the intended starters were on IR just doesn't matter, huh?

Oh, BTW, the tackle drafted last year, Andrew Datko, is also 6'6". I guess that was irrelevant to his story, too?

Yup, those silly Packers just don't understand that it is good for O-linemen to be big.

[rbaloha1]

So, you bow in adoration to a writer who basically ignores that the guys TT drafted in the first rounds of successive drafts to be the starting OT's are 6'6" and 6'5" because they don't fit neatly into his "the Packers don't get it" storyline? The fact that smaller players were playing because the intended starters were on IR just doesn't matter, huh?

Oh, BTW, the tackle drafted last year, Andrew Datko, is also 6'6". I guess that was irrelevant to his story, too?

Yup, those silly Packers just don't understand that it is good for O-linemen to be big.


Yup, trust a writer with a plethora of resources than snarky twitty wannabe comedian rats.

BTW did you actually measure Datko?

[mmmdk]

That is a hoot. My mom who only watches the Super Bowl kept commenting on how skinny the Ravens were.

:lol:

[Patler]

Yup, trust a writer with a plethora of resources than snarky twitty wannabe comedian rats.

BTW did you actually measure Datko?

No, I didn't measure Datko. Did McGinn actually measure Newhouse? Did he actually measure all of the other left tackles in the league so he could proclaim Newhouse to be one of the shortest left tackles in the league? Did he actually measure Barclay and all the other players for whom he gave height measurements? Did he actually weigh all those for whom he gave weights?

I find it less than straight forward of him to mention only recent draft picks who are short and/or light, while completely ignoring those like Bulaga, Sherrod, Datko, etc. who don't support his storyline. The article would have much more value if it were an objective analysis of all the recent acquisitions. Instead, his analysis is junk because it ignores too many facts, and cherry picks facts to support an hypothesis.

In short, this article is not his best work. It is mostly junk.

[Upnorth]

If we are so short on Oline then everybody should have been happy to see Wells go...

[rbaloha1]

No, I didn't measure Datko. Did McGinn actually measure Newhouse? Did he actually measure all of the other left tackles in the league so he could proclaim Newhouse to be one of the shortest left tackles in the league? Did he actually measure Barclay and all the other players for whom he gave height measurements? Did he actually weigh all those for whom he gave weights?

I find it less than straight forward of him to mention only recent draft picks who are short and/or light, while completely ignoring those like Bulaga, Sherrod, Datko, etc. who don't support his storyline. The article would have much more value if it were an objective analysis of all the recent acquisitions. Instead, his analysis is junk because it ignores too many facts, and cherry picks facts to support an hypothesis.

In short, this article is not his best work. It is mostly junk.

Bulaga has short arms

Datko is a seventh round pick -- enough said.

Sherrod is long and a protypical nfl lineman.

The rat usually disses because it is contrary to snarky cherry picking analysis.

[Zool]

This just in, sports writers pander to people who like to complain and think everything is shit. Misery, after all, loves company and who is more miserable than sports fan guy who thinks everything is shit?

[rbaloha1]

This just in, sports writers pander to people who like to complain and think everything is shit. Misery, after all, loves company and who is more miserable than sports fan guy who thinks everything is shit?

R U questioning Mcginn's cred?

[Zool]

R U questioning Mcginn's cred?

Imagine he wrote an honest article about how some players who would be in key positions got hurt, but they will be back next year. That's not exactly what's considered journalism now-a-days. If you don't sensationalize and spew lop sided rhetoric, you aren't going to sell a lot of papers or online subs or ad hits on their site. He would then be out of a job.

I've said this for many years, sports journalism(like political journalism) is the Michael Bay of the news industry. If shit isn't blowing up every 30 seconds and the sky isn't falling constantly, it doesn't sell to our small minded society.

[rbaloha1]

Imagine he wrote an honest article about how some players who would be in key positions got hurt, but they will be back next year. That's not exactly what's considered journalism now-a-days. If you don't sensationalize and spew lop sided rhetoric, you aren't going to sell a lot of papers or online subs or ad hits on their site. He would then be out of a job.

I've said this for many years, sports journalism(like political journalism) is the Michael Bay of the news industry. If shit isn't blowing up every 30 seconds and the sky isn't falling constantly, it doesn't sell to our small minded society.

What would the storyline be for McGinn if Packers were big and slow and the s-b contending teams were small and fast?

Does your thesis apply to rat posters?

[Zool]

What would the storyline be for McGinn if Packers were big and slow and the s-b contending teams were small and fast?

Does your thesis apply to rat posters?

No, just you

[rbaloha1]

The butt wiping brigade continues.

[3irty1]

Wipe the McGinn gravy off your chin. You act like you've never seen a throwaway puff piece by JSO writer before.

[KYPack]

What would the storyline be for McGinn if Packers were big and slow and the s-b contending teams were small and fast?
Does your thesis apply to rat posters?

That already happened. After those hated Broncos won back to back in the late '90's, there were all kind of articles about how D's smallish, fast, quick, smarty pants OLineman were all the rage & the "new" NFL trend. You can't assemble talent strictly by size. If you see a great small guy, get him. Talent is the the gating factor in player acquistion. If you ignore good players and focus on a body type, you might have short term success, but it won't last.

This is a post SB puff piece by McGinn. Nothing more, nothing less, nothing to pay much attention to.

[rbaloha1]

Wipe the McGinn gravy off your chin. You act like you've never seen a throwaway puff piece by JSO writer before.

1. What is puffy?

2. What is your solution to the Packers beating physically superior teams?

[rbaloha1]

That already happened. After those hated Broncos won back to back in the late '90's, there were all kind of articles about how D's smallish, fast, quick, smarty pants OLineman were all the rage & the "new" NFL trend. You can't assemble talent strictly by size. If you see a great small guy, get him. Talent is the the gating factor in player acquistion. If you ignore good players and focus on a body type, you might have short term success, but it won't last.

This is a post SB puff piece by McGinn. Nothing more, nothing less, nothing to pay much attention to.


Braddah K-Y,

I love you man. If you ever make it back to the sandwich islands nothing but da kine, wahines and mai tais for you.

Realize you are in a tough position -- talking about the now and beating the niners -- not just winning the north.

[Patler]

Bulaga has short arms

Datko is a seventh round pick -- enough said.

Sherrod is long and a protypical nfl lineman.

The rat usually disses because it is contrary to snarky cherry picking analysis.

Bulaga is also said to have small hands. Clearly the guy doesn't have a chance to succeed.

I think it has been written a few times that Newhouse has long arms. Maybe he really plays like he is 6'5"?

Ya, 7th round draft picks like Tauscher, ....er, ..... I mean Wells, ...oh, silly senile old me, ....I mean DATKO, never turn out to be anything.

[Zool]

Bulaga is also said to have small hands. Clearly the guy doesn't have a chance to succeed.

I think it has been written a few times that Newhouse has long arms. Maybe he really plays like he is 6'5"?

Ya, 7th round draft picks like Tauscher, ....er, ..... I mean Wells, ...oh, silly senile old me, ....I mean DATKO, never turn out to be anything.

How is a sports writer to make a living if he/she has to take everything into account?

The formula is:
Make up theory or regurgitate someone else's theory
Remove anything that might refute your theory
Publish article
Cash paycheck

It's pretty simple stuff when you think about it. Plus in the Internet age, you can have people ranting about it incessantly on a forum while waving their arms and shouting at the wind.

[denverYooper]

Imagine he wrote an honest article about how some players who would be in key positions got hurt, but they will be back next year. That's not exactly what's considered journalism now-a-days. If you don't sensationalize and spew lop sided rhetoric, you aren't going to sell a lot of papers or online subs or ad hits on their site. He would then be out of a job.


This.

McGinn often writes some fine articles but his recent line of "The Packers are too small/not physical" is pretty obvious pandering and his use of numbers is glaringly one-sided and intended to create a wedge for the sake of driving interest.

[rbaloha1]

Bulaga is also said to have small hands. Clearly the guy doesn't have a chance to succeed.

I think it has been written a few times that Newhouse has long arms. Maybe he really plays like he is 6'5"?

Ya, 7th round draft picks like Tauscher, ....er, ..... I mean Wells, ...oh, silly senile old me, ....I mean DATKO, never turn out to be anything.


I like BB.

My takeaway has always been what Mcginn advocates -- change in mindset and roster to address the lack of physicality on the defensive side of the ball.

[rbaloha1]

This.

McGinn often writes some fine articles but his recent line of "The Packers are too small/not physical" is pretty obvious pandering and his use of numbers is glaringly one-sided and intended to create a wedge for the sake of driving interest.

What happened against the niners and giants in successive years? Maybe power failures were the answer.

The denial continues.

[denverYooper]

The reason I had started this thread in the first place was to get at some more context regarding how some current teams are built, starting with the recent super bowl winners and including some of the other top teams. My working theory is, and has been, that the NFL is essentially in a post-dynasty era, mostly due to the salary cap, and that the best a good GM can do is to position their team for multiple shots at the apple.

These next few years under relatively flat salary caps will be *very* interesting to observe from a team-building standpoint.

[rbaloha1]

Building a modern dynasty is working within the cap and finding the right players to beat the best teams.

Overall the Packers manage the cap well but do not have the right players on the defensive side of the ball to beat elite teams.

[denverYooper]

What happened against the niners and giants in successive years? Maybe power failures were the answer.

The denial continues.

Maybe it does. But it's not so simple as "The Packers weigh less."

We've discussed the team's problems against these teams before but they're different for different reasons.

Note, for instance, that the 49ers offensive line is not good simply because it is big. It is also filled with very athletic, smart high drafted players who are asked to do a lot in the running game. The Giants often have been successful with low round picks on their OL.

[3irty1]

1. What is puffy?

2. What is your solution to the Packers beating physically superior teams?

The TT era has been a nightmare for reporters as they are in the dark all the time. The result is speculation and analysis, which is very different from journalism.

My advice to beating physically superior teams is to become physically superior by moving from the left of this graph to the right.
http://img.gawkerassets.com/post/11/2013/01/dnp-01_1.png
Notice where the "physical" 49ers, Seahawks, and Vikings are on this graph.

[denverYooper]

By the way, I would wager my ability with numbers against Bob's any day of the week. Twice on Sundays.

[rbaloha1]

Maybe it does. But it's not so simple as "The Packers weigh less."

We've discussed the team's problems against these teams before but they're different for different reasons.

Note, for instance, that the 49ers offensive line is not good simply because it is big. It is also filled with very athletic, smart high drafted players who are asked to do a lot in the running game. The Giants often have been successful with low round picks on their OL.

You are interputing the simplicity. The mindset and coaching is also important.

The niners o-line is not just big -- it is fast powerful and athletic which beats small majority of the time.

Another TT protege built the niners just like the seahawks. So it is possible to have bigger, faster and more athletic players while managing cap.

[rbaloha1]

By the way, I would wager my ability with numbers against Bob's any day of the week. Twice on Sundays.

I am willing to buy your snake oil.

[mraynrand]

Yup, trust a writer with a plethora of resources than snarky twitty wannabe comedian rats.

sort of begs the question of why you even post here :lol:

[denverYooper]

I am willing to buy your snake oil.

Bob's a journalist. I have a Master's degree in computational biology, basically data mining/modeling/programming with huge, messy data sets.

[denverYooper]

How the 49ers were built. Notice that Baalkie inherited a lot of talent. We'll see if he continues to "manage their cap" and "maintain that roster".

http://www.csnbayarea.com/blog/matt-maiocco/through-years-how-49ers-were-built


Terry DonahueSteve Mariucci (through 2002)
LS Brian Jennings, 2000, seventh round

Terry DonahueDennis Erickson (2003-04)
CB Shawntae Spencer, 2004, second round
NT Isaac Sopoaga, 2004, fourth round
P Andy Lee, 2004, sixth roundScot McCloughanMike Nolan (2005-08)
QB Alex Smith, 2005, first round
RB Frank Gore, 2005, third round
G Adam Snyder, 2005, third round
TE Vernon Davis, 2006, first round
TE Delanie Walker, 2006, sixth round
LB Parys Haralson, 2006, fifth round
LB Patrick Willis, 2007, first round
LT Joe Staley, 2007, first round
DE Ray McDonald, 2007, third round
FS Dashon Goldson, 2007, fourth round
CB Tarell Brown, 2007, fifth round
DE Justin Smith, 2008, free agent
G Chilo Rachal, 2008, second round
S Reggie Smith, 2008, third round
WR Joshua Morgan, 2008, sixth round

Scot McCloughanMike Singletary (2008-09)
LB Ahmad Brooks, 2008, waiver claim
FB Moran Norris, 2009, free agent
WR Michael Crabtree, 2009, first round
DT Ricky Jean Francois, 2009, seventh round
T Alex Boone, 2009, undrafted rookie

Trent BaalkeMike Singletary (2010)
WR Ted Ginn, trade
T Anthony Davis, first round
G Mike Iupati, first round
LB NaVorro Bowman, third round
WR Kyle Williams, sixth round
RB Anthony Dixon, sixth round
CB Tramaine Brock, undrafted rookie
DB C.J. Spillman, waiver claim

Trent BaalkeJim Harbaugh (2011)
LB Aldon Smith, first round
QB Colin Kaepernick, second round
CB Chris Culliver, third round
RB Kendall Hunter, fourth round
G Daniel Kilgore, fifth round
S Colin Jones, sixth round
FB Bruce Miller, seventh round
T Mike Person, seventh round
NT Ian Williams, undrafted rookie
DE Demarcus Dobbs, undrafted rookie
K David Akers, free agent
LB Larry Grant, free agent
CB Carlos Rogers, free agent
S Madieu Williams, free agent
C Jonathan Goodwin, free agent
LB Blake Costanzo, free agent
WR Braylon Edwards, free agent
S Donte Whitner, free agent
QB Scott Tolzien, waiver claim
LB Tavares Gooden, free agent
TE Justin Peelle, free agent
WR Brett Swain, free agent

[mraynrand]

Bob's a journalist. I have a Master's degree in computational biology, basically data mining/modeling/programming with huge, messy data sets.

If I give you ten dollars, would you run all my log rank statistical tests?

[pbmax]

Building a modern dynasty is working within the cap and finding the right players to beat the best teams.

Overall the Packers manage the cap well but do not have the right players on the defensive side of the ball to beat elite teams.

That's a terrible way to build a team. You might then do something dumb like draft 3 DBs in the first 3 rounds of a draft and then find yourself with only one viable player and a roster that has serious needs elsewhere*. Meanwhile, the passing offense you were trying to stop is killing you twice a year anyway.

The problem with McGinn's analysis is that he cherry picks certain recent acquisitions compares them to other cherry picked acquisitions on other teams and finds the Packers wanting. Even If McGinn has a point about the physical nature of the team (and he wasn't just talking about defense), it isn't made in this article in a persuasive way. Its just gravy to people who assume the 49ers roasted the Packers because of physical size and strength shortcomings.

The problem with the other conclusion you are drawing, that the Giants also beat the Packers physically, is that the Giants present a completely different physical challenge. The Giants pass rush often consists of 4 DEs rushing the QB. And one of those DEs is actually an OLB. The Packers have trouble pass protecting against that speed and quickness.

If you built an O line specifically to stop the Giants pass rush, you might be well undermanned to handle the 49ers strength.

The Packers don't need a change in approach, they need their picks and team healthy. If Bob had an idea how to prevent injuries, that article would be worth reading.


* Of course, if you are Ron Wolf and had been seized by a temporary case of Randy Moss paranoia, you then recover by trading one of the non-factors away for Ahman Green.

[mraynrand]

you added that part about Green before I could!

[denverYooper]

If I give you ten dollars, would you run all my log rank statistical tests?

Is the pay log-based?

[pbmax]

you added that part about Green before I could!

Sorry. Sometimes edits don't look like edits in this board. I should have left it. Knew someone would pick it up. :lol:

[denverYooper]

On top of Yo Flacco!s impending salary increase, Terrell Suggs is due $13 million next year, too.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/02/05/add-terrell-suggs-cap-number-to-list-of-ravens-concerns/

[denverYooper]

Goldson does not want to be franchised for a second time.

http://blogs.sacbee.com/49ers/archives/2013/02/goldson-states-his-case-does-not-want-franchise-tag-in-2013.html


While Patrick Willis, Ahmad Brooks and NaVorro Bowman have struck lucrative, long-term deals in recent years, Goldson still is looking for his. He made it to the free-agent market two years ago but did not find any takers. Goldson wanted to be among the top-paid safeties in the league at that point, and he instead was forced to accept a very modest one-year deal with the 49ers in 2011.

"I was in this position before and it didn't work out the way I wanted it to," he said. "And that happens."

Goldson said the 49ers gave him the courtesy of a "heads up" before they announced the long-term deals for his fellow defenders. But he said he felt he was deserving of his own long-term contract and the security it brings.

"I think that guys that got deals done were deserving," Goldson said. "It was a little, like, 'Wow. Ok.' But I had to stay focused on what was more important, and that was the team and getting to the Super Bowl."

Read more here: http://blogs.sacbee.com/49ers/archives/2013/02/goldson-states-his-case-does-not-want-franchise-tag-in-2013.html#storylink=cpy

Their "Pending FA" list also includes Delanie Walker and both of their NTs.

[3irty1]

Their NT's are the worst players on their DL and Delanie Walker seems to have as many bad plays as good.

Goldson is a pretty sweet prize though.

[rbaloha1]

sort of begs the question of why you even post here :lol:

i am trying to learn from "pros" like you. maybe when i grow i can be just like you.

[rbaloha1]

On top of Yo Flacco!s impending salary increase, Terrell Suggs is due $13 million next year, too.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/02/05/add-terrell-suggs-cap-number-to-list-of-ravens-concerns/

flacco may have to sacrifice $ to keep boldin and the dude who returned the kickoff.

[mraynrand]

i am trying to learn from "pros" like you. maybe when i grow i can be just like you.

I can tell you from personal experience, you don't want to do that

[rbaloha1]

I can tell you from personal experience, you don't want to do that

please pretty please

[George Cumby]

The TT era has been a nightmare for reporters as they are in the dark all the time. The result is speculation and analysis, which is very different from journalism.

My advice to beating physically superior teams is to become physically superior by moving from the left of this graph to the right.
http://img.gawkerassets.com/post/11/2013/01/dnp-01_1.png
Notice where the "physical" 49ers, Seahawks, and Vikings are on this graph.

Well now, maybe the Pack needs to steal the S&C staff from MIA, 'cause it's clear something is out of whack......

[George Cumby]

Bob's a journalist. I have a Master's degree in computational biology, basically data mining/modeling/programming with huge, messy data sets.

Holy Computational Biomodelling, Batman! Check out the big brain on Yoop! :smile:

[mraynrand]

Holy Computational Biomodelling, Batman! Check out the big brain on Yoop! :smile:

sure, but his data sets are messy. Clean up your room, Yoop!

[KYPack]

The guy can't be from the Upper Pennisula.

Guess he was sick of being the smartest guy in the whole 1/2 state.

[rbaloha1]

Holy Computational Biomodelling, Batman! Check out the big brain on Yoop! :smile:

B.S.

[Patler]

Building a modern dynasty is working within the cap and finding the right players to beat the best teams.

Overall the Packers manage the cap well but do not have the right players on the defensive side of the ball to beat elite teams.

Their defense certainly has been lacking the last two years, but as recently as 2010 it was fairly decent, which makes their recent performances all the more confusing.
I think the loss of Collins has been huge for the defense. He covered a lot of mistakes made in front of him, prevented a lot of big plays with his speed, and made impact plays.
The injury to Williams has also hurt. It has made him into a different player the last two seasons.
Woodson has declined significantly. It was inevitable, but still hurts
They really haven't had anything but role players at DL for a long time. They got away with it in 2010, but it has been exploited by teams the last two seasons.

There could be help on the way. I have hope for Perry, for some reason not really clear to me. I have a feeling he and Matthews could become a dynamic pair.
Hayward looks to be able to make up for some of the loss from Woodson's decline.
With good health (a long shot, I know) Shields and House might make up for the change in Williams, who could lose his starting job in 2013.
I should know better than to think this, but Neal just might salvage his career yet.
Hopefully Bishop returns as the player he was when he was hurt, although I'm not convinced that it will happen that way.

They need improvement at MLB. They need a dynamic, impact player at safety. I don't think they have one on the roster right now, so they may need to go get one. They need at least one well-rounded DL, and can use as many of those as they can get.

[Fritz]

I don't understand this "the Packers are too small" line.

They did get rid of Brent Favre, and everybody knows - thanks for sending that pic out, Brent! - how small he was.

[rbaloha1]

Their defense certainly has been lacking the last two years, but as recently as 2010 it was fairly decent, which makes their recent performances all the more confusing.
I think the loss of Collins has been huge for the defense. He covered a lot of mistakes made in front of him, prevented a lot of big plays with his speed, and made impact plays.
The injury to Williams has also hurt. It has made him into a different player the last two seasons.
Woodson has declined significantly. It was inevitable, but still hurts
They really haven't had anything but role players at DL for a long time. They got away with it in 2010, but it has been exploited by teams the last two seasons.

There could be help on the way. I have hope for Perry, for some reason not really clear to me. I have a feeling he and Matthews could become a dynamic pair.
Hayward looks to be able to make up for some of the loss from Woodson's decline.
With good health (a long shot, I know) Shields and House might make up for the change in Williams, who could lose his starting job in 2013.
I should know better than to think this, but Neal just might salvage his career yet.
Hopefully Bishop returns as the player he was when he was hurt, although I'm not convinced that it will happen that way.

They need improvement at MLB. They need a dynamic, impact player at safety. I don't think they have one on the roster right now, so they may need to go get one. They need at least one well-rounded DL, and can use as many of those as they can get.

Generally agree with your analysis.

2010 was a year of 15 players on injured reserve with street free agents like Zombo and Green playing big successful roles. Plugging in these type of players and winning a super bowl was amazing and widely admired by the league.

Moving forward -- these are not the type of players that a team can have continued high success.

The Packers shortcomings on defense have been widely exposed especially in the front seven. An average front seven can be exposed in the option while a superior one can control the option as evidenced by the Ravens holding Gore to 29 yards rushing. IMO stopping the dive is the key to playing the option.

Sorry -- Mike Daniels, Neal and Worthy do not have enough size to play a full season of pounding. Packers need more Wolfolk, Ngata types. They are available in the draft. Moving Perry inside with Bishop adds the type of bulk and strength required to play inside.

It is interesting watching TT's proteges building big, powerful and fast rosters.

[pbmax]

An average front seven can be exposed in the option while a superior one can control the option as evidenced by the Ravens holding Gore to 29 yards rushing. IMO stopping the dive is the key to playing the option.

Sorry -- Mike Daniels, Neal and Worthy do not have enough size to play a full season of pounding. Packers need more Wolfolk, Ngata types. They are available in the draft. Moving Perry inside with Bishop adds the type of bulk and strength required to play inside.

It is interesting watching TT's proteges building big, powerful and fast rosters.

Just give this up. You have reached the point not only of diminishing returns but of making our points for us.

Here is a partial list of things you got wrong or don't understand:
1. Frank Gore did not rush for 29 yards in the Super Bowl. He had 110 yards rushing.
1a. His yards came mostly from Iso and Power runs, not dives.
2. That dominating front seven of the Ravens, led by Ngata, yielded 182 net yards rushing.
3. The Ravens, like the Falcons, decided that dying like the Packers was not an attractive choice. They choose to take away the option for Kaepernick and had their DE or OLB maintain outside contain or run at the QB, giving CK a give read on virtually every play. Despite this, Ck rushed for 62 yards.
4. If your game plan strategy was sound, the Packers should have beaten the 49ers (or held their offense in check) as they yielded fewer inside yards to Gore than the Falcons or Ravens. That didn't happen. What did, in fact, happen was that Harbaugh, Roman and mostly Ck demonstrated the a running and scrambling CK was far more dangerous than Gore.

Please just stop.

[rbaloha1]

Just give this up. You have reached the point not only of diminishing returns but of making our points for us.

Here is a partial list of things you got wrong or don't understand:
1. Frank Gore did not rush for 29 yards in the Super Bowl. He had 110 yards rushing.
1a. His yards came mostly from Iso and Power runs, not dives.
2. That dominating front seven of the Ravens, led by Ngata, yielded 182 net yards rushing.

Ngata was out for a good portion of the game -- who won the game

3. The Ravens, like the Falcons, decided that dying like the Packers was not an attractive choice. They choose to take away the option for Kaepernick and had their DE or OLB maintain outside contain or run at the QB, giving CK a give read on virtually every play. Despite this, Ck rushed for 62 yards.

Again not off spread option plays

4. If your game plan strategy was sound, the Packers should have beaten the 49ers (or held their offense in check) as they yielded fewer inside yards to Gore than the Falcons or Ravens. That didn't happen. What did, in fact, happen was that Harbaugh, Roman and mostly Ck demonstrated the a running and scrambling CK was far more dangerous than Gore.

The Packers game strategy was bad and part of it was due to poor game planning and bad personnel


Please just stop.

Never until you do.

Okay misread the gore number.

CK rushing numbers came on scrambles, designed qb runs and not read option.

PLEASE STOP!

[rbaloha1]

That's a terrible way to build a team. You might then do something dumb like draft 3 DBs in the first 3 rounds of a draft and then find yourself with only one viable player and a roster that has serious needs elsewhere*. Meanwhile, the passing offense you were trying to stop is killing you twice a year anyway.

The problem with McGinn's analysis is that he cherry picks certain recent acquisitions compares them to other cherry picked acquisitions on other teams and finds the Packers wanting. Even If McGinn has a point about the physical nature of the team (and he wasn't just talking about defense), it isn't made in this article in a persuasive way. Its just gravy to people who assume the 49ers roasted the Packers because of physical size and strength shortcomings.

The problem with the other conclusion you are drawing, that the Giants also beat the Packers physically, is that the Giants present a completely different physical challenge. The Giants pass rush often consists of 4 DEs rushing the QB. And one of those DEs is actually an OLB. The Packers have trouble pass protecting against that speed and quickness.

If you built an O line specifically to stop the Giants pass rush, you might be well undermanned to handle the 49ers strength.

The Packers don't need a change in approach, they need their picks and team healthy. If Bob had an idea how to prevent injuries, that article would be worth reading.


* Of course, if you are Ron Wolf and had been seized by a temporary case of Randy Moss paranoia, you then recover by trading one of the non-factors away for Ahman Green.

Please Stop!

[rbaloha1]

Can't believe you guys are discussing physicality as if it relates to avg team weight??

Body types, and overall offensive and defensive philosophies are what matter.

Raji is 330 lbs, but he is not a 2-gap player; all of our OL are 300+ pounders, yet they can't drive block to save their lives. Our LB'ers, given that they aren't protected very well by our miscast DL, don't take on and shed well. Our Safeties don't play downhill and bring the kill shot. Our FB is better suited taking swing passes in the flat...

Everything about the Packers is finesse. TT and McCarthy want OL that can get to the 2nd level and block in the open field; TT wants safties that are glorified corners, and wants corners that can cover first - tackling is incidental. Capers wants to play gimmicks with his front seven, so 2-gap DL aren't valued.

The Packers finesse philosophy is fine going up against other finesse teams, but the bully on the block is going to beat us up most of the time, and it shows against teams like the 49er's and Giants.

Whose on first?

[rbaloha1]

There you go with facts when someone knows something to be true when they see it.

Please stop.

[rbaloha1]

Did you misunderstand him or are you employing that sarcasm stuff?

Whose on First?

[3irty1]

Generally agree with your analysis.

2010 was a year of 15 players on injured reserve with street free agents like Zombo and Green playing big successful roles. Plugging in these type of players and winning a super bowl was amazing and widely admired by the league.

Moving forward -- these are not the type of players that a team can have continued high success.

The Packers shortcomings on defense have been widely exposed especially in the front seven. An average front seven can be exposed in the option while a superior one can control the option as evidenced by the Ravens holding Gore to 29 yards rushing. IMO stopping the dive is the key to playing the option.

Sorry -- Mike Daniels, Neal and Worthy do not have enough size to play a full season of pounding. Packers need more Wolfolk, Ngata types. They are available in the draft. Moving Perry inside with Bishop adds the type of bulk and strength required to play inside.

It is interesting watching TT's proteges building big, powerful and fast rosters.

While I agree that we could use another 340lb NT type guy to beef up the line in short yardage situations and backup Pickett and Raji, I disagree with your criticism of Neal, and Worthy. Neal is the exact kind of physical freak you think elite rosters are composed exclusively out of. His size is above average for the position but his strength and speed are much better than average. I think he's one of our best chances for improvement. Worthy is a rookie but has average size and great quickness of the line and the functional strength to compete already. He's a potential 3 down guy.

As for Daniels I'm pretty sure he was a late round choice to find a rookie that could play a situational role as an interior pass rusher where he could contribute immediately. It's a copycat league and in 2011 the Ravens got 7 sacks out of Pernell McPhee, a 275lb DL rookie and the Titans got 7 out of Karl Klug, another 270 lb rookie. Daniels played a similar role for us until he was pressed into service from injuries and proved pretty sturdy given his limitations. He wasn't the sack-artist we were probably hoping for but neither was McPhee or Klug this year. Hard to say what will become of Daniels.

As for moving Perry inside, that's a terrible idea and a waste of his potential as a pass rusher. He is a size-speed-strength freak but doesn't change directions that well and has already been a bit of a liability for us in coverage. In the middle he may look the part but it's not a position where his 1st round qualities will show. I'd rather move Walden in there or just keep Hawk.

[rbaloha1]

While I agree that we could use another 340lb NT type guy to beef up the line in short yardage situations and backup Pickett and Raji, I disagree with your criticism of Neal, and Worthy. Neal is the exact kind of physical freak you think elite rosters are composed exclusively out of. His size is above average for the position but his strength and speed are much better than average. I think he's one of our best chances for improvement. Worthy is a rookie but has average size and great quickness of the line and the functional strength to compete already. He's a potential 3 down guy.

As for Daniels I'm pretty sure he was a late round choice to find a rookie that could play a situational role as an interior pass rusher where he could contribute immediately. It's a copycat league and in 2011 the Ravens got 7 sacks out of Pernell McPhee, a 275lb DL rookie and the Titans got 7 out of Karl Klug, another 270 lb guy. Daniels played a similar role for us until he was pressed into service from injuries and proved pretty sturdy given his limitations. He wasn't the sack-artist we were probably hoping for but neither was McPhee or Klug this year. Hard to say what will become of Daniels.

As for moving Perry inside, that's a terrible idea and a waste of his potential as a pass rusher. He is a size-speed-strength freak but doesn't change directions that well and has already been a bit of a liability for us in coverage. In the middle he may look the part but it's not a position where his 1st round qualities will show. I'd rather move Walden in there or just keep Hawk.

Did you watch Neal get manhandled by the niners? Bought into the Cullen Jenkins replacement early on but not anymore.

Daniels is strictly situational.

Raji may not be resigned and Pickett is aging.

Walden? with those instincts.

Perry -- what other lbs have the ability to play inside against the run? BTW e-mail Leroy Butler what terrible idea this is.

[denverYooper]

While I agree that we could use another 340lb NT type guy to beef up the line in short yardage situations and backup Pickett and Raji, I disagree with your criticism of Neal, and Worthy. Neal is the exact kind of physical freak you think elite rosters are composed exclusively out of. His size is above average for the position but his strength and speed are much better than average. I think he's one of our best chances for improvement. Worthy is a rookie but has average size and great quickness of the line and the functional strength to compete already. He's a potential 3 down guy.


I agree with this. The big "problem" with the DL is that most of them are still not fully developed. DL seems to take the longest to grow into in the NFL.

[Zool]

The Packers shortcomings on defense have been widely exposed especially in the front seven. An average front seven can be exposed in the option while a superior one can control the option as evidenced by the Ravens holding Gore to 29 yards rushing.

19 carries 110 yards 5.8/ypc

As a team SF had 182 on 29 carries. Is there something I'm missing?

[rbaloha1]

19 carries 110 yards 5.8/ypc

As a team SF had 182 on 29 carries. Is there something I'm missing?


No -- who won the game? Didn't CK have that many yds against the Packers by himself?

[rbaloha1]

I agree with this. The big "problem" with the DL is that most of them are still not fully developed. DL seems to take the longest to grow into in the NFL.

Daniels and Neal can not morph into Wolfork, Ngata types.

Worthy shrunk during the season.

D line does not have enough big bodies -- it is on TT.

[3irty1]

Did you watch Neal get manhandled by the niners? Bought into the Cullen Jenkins replacement early on but not anymore.

Daniels is strictly situational.

Raji may not be resigned and Pickett is aging.

Walden? with those instincts.

Perry -- what other lbs have the ability to play inside against the run? BTW e-mail Leroy Butler what terrible idea this is.

A replacement for Jenkins is exactly what he is, if anything Neal anchors better than Jenkins did. Jenkins saw his fair share of rag dollings when playing the run but when you get that 300+ lb player that can excel as a pass rusher, you take the bad with the good.

Raji will probably be resigned, Pickett's decline is marginal to nonexistent at this point but I agree with you anyways. In the SB year we had Howard Green off the street who gave Capers some great options for formations and subs.

Walden's speed is his issue. His instincts fail him sometimes too but he's got super physical playing style, he's just too damn slow to be trusted on the edge and is ineffective as a pass rusher. Dom has played him inside on occasion, most notably during the 2010-2011 playoffs where he was playing his best ball for us. He's bigger but more importantly meaner than anything we've got inside at this point.

Effective 3-4 outside linebackers are much more valuable and rare than effective 3-4 linebackers. They would never move Perry unless they've ruled him out as a pass rusher or you have more than 2 good ones and are just trying to get your best guys on the field. We already know Walden is a lousy pass rusher, we also know that at their current weights Walden is a lot less robotic in his direction changes and less of a liability in coverage. So yeah, terrible idea.

Do my conclusions and the reasoning behind them not count because they don't have the endorsement of Leroy Butler? The beauty of giving my reasons for my thoughts, is you can explain why you think they are wrong, should you be up for some critical thinking, rather than just hiding behind McGinn, Butler, and Skip Bayless or whoever else you trust for your analysis.

[3irty1]

I agree with this. The big "problem" with the DL is that most of them are still not fully developed. DL seems to take the longest to grow into in the NFL.

For sure, at least when it comes to playing the run. Raji, Worthy, Daniels all came in with explosive first steps and contributed as pass rushers. Raji eventually grew into the NT role and I'm still not sure he's better at it than Pickett was.

[rbaloha1]

A replacement for Jenkins is exactly what he is, if anything Neal anchors better than Jenkins did. Jenkins saw his fair share of rag dollings when playing the run but when you get that 300+ lb player that can excel as a pass rusher, you take the bad with the good.

Raji will probably be resigned, Pickett's decline is marginal to nonexistent at this point but I agree with you anyways. In the SB year we had Howard Green off the street who gave Capers some great options for formations and subs.

Walden's speed is his issue. His instincts fail him sometimes too but he's got super physical playing style, he's just too damn slow to be trusted on the edge and is ineffective as a pass rusher. Dom has played him inside on occasion, most notably during the 2010-2011 playoffs where he was playing his best ball for us. He's bigger but more importantly meaner than anything we've got inside at this point.

Effective 3-4 outside linebackers are much more valuable and rare than effective 3-4 linebackers. They would never move Perry unless they've ruled him out as a pass rusher or you have more than 2 good ones and are just trying to get your best guys on the field. We already know Walden is a lousy pass rusher, we also know that at their current weights Walden is a lot less robotic in his direction changes and less of a liability in coverage. So yeah, terrible idea.

Do my conclusion and the reasoning behind them not count because they don't have the endorsement of Leroy Butler? The beauty of giving my reasons for my thoughts, is you can explain why you think they are wrong, should you be up for some critical thinking, rather than just hiding behind McGinn, Butler, and Skip Bayless or whoever else you trust for your analysis.

You left out many critical thinkers from this board who will be upset. Please no beauty.

Its interesting because this board talks about Pickett's demise which I disagee -- age is the bigger concern. You are assuming Raji is resigned. Raji is too inconsistent and gets engulfed too much -- plus takes off too many plays. IMO overrated and unreliable.

BTW Howard Green is long gone. CJ is okay and pretty stout against the run.

Boy your analysis on Walden just does not warrant a comment.

What other solutions do you have for ilb next to Bishop. Who said the org is not considering moving Perry inside?

[Zool]

No -- who won the game? Didn't CK have that many yds against the Packers by himself?

But didn't you just say Gore had 29 yards rushing against the Ravens?

[rbaloha1]

But didn't you just say Gore had 29 yards rushing against the Ravens?

Yes -- I made a BIG MISTAKE

[Zool]

Yes -- I made a BIG MISTAKE

So would you say the huge and powerful Ravens front 7 didn't do well? What with giving up 6.3ypc for the game?

[rbaloha1]

So would you say the huge and powerful Ravens front 7 didn't do well? What with giving up 6.3ypc for the game?

49 ers vs. Packers 43 carries 323 yards 4 rushing tds WIN

49 ers vs, Ravens 29 carries 182 yards 2 rushing tds LOSS

You Decide (not a political statement)

[rbaloha1]

So would you say the huge and powerful Ravens front 7 didn't do well? What with giving up 6.3ypc for the game?

What is your solution?

[Zool]

49 ers vs. Packers 43 carries 323 yards 4 rushing tds WIN

49 ers vs, Ravens 29 carries 182 yards 2 rushing tds LOSS

You Decide (not a political statement)

So anything contrary to your point is moot. Got it. Just checking.

[rbaloha1]

So anything contrary to your point is moot. Got it. Just checking.

Sore loser.

[pbmax]

49 ers vs. Packers 43 carries 323 yards 4 rushing tds WIN

49 ers vs, Ravens 29 carries 182 yards 2 rushing tds LOSS

You Decide (not a political statement)

Now that is a useful comparison. Now tell me how much of the difference was Gore inside versus Kaepernick outside and scrambling?

[rbaloha1]

Now that is a useful comparison. Now tell me how much of the difference was Gore inside versus Kaepernick outside and scrambling?

Who cares -- CK killed the Packers on zone reads and made plays against the Ravens on scrambles and designed runs.

I know you will correct me -- CK had something like 68 yds rushing against the ravens and 182 vs. the packers -- quick correct me.

[pbmax]

Not at all. But those numbers tell us something. It points to a problem with outside the tackle defense and possibly with deep run support.

It also is an indication that the choice to play defense from inside out was perilous and presented such danger from CK that no other playoff team wanted any part of it.

These things mitigate, to a certain degree, the culpability of the interior of the defensive line.

Now the QB scrambling and a failure to take him down on a sack? That is on the pass rushers and as we asked about the Packer troubles with Peterson, how long does it take for the players to adhere to a disciplined approach in game? I think that speaks to coaching as well as personnel.

There are numerous issues to be addressed. One of them is not: Ted Thompson has forgotten how to draft in this day and age.

[Bossman641]

Who cares -- CK killed the Packers on zone reads and made plays against the Ravens on scrambles and designed runs.

I know you will correct me -- CK had something like 68 yds rushing against the ravens and 182 vs. the packers -- quick correct me.

Your whole basis was the Packers need bigger players. Wouldn't bigger (and most likely slower) players be more susceptible to scrambles and designed runs to guys like CK?

Please spare me the "Packers just need the Ngata, Wilfork types." There's a reason those are of the best DL of the past 10 years.

[3irty1]

I'm beginning to think this thread is some kind of social experiment to prove how lousy an internet forum would be if one of the posters was a reactionary that couldn't pass a Turing test. Mad you making robots?

:trll:

[denverYooper]

I'm beginning to think this thread is some kind of social experiment to prove how lousy an internet forum would be if one of the posters was a reactionary that couldn't pass a Turing test. Mad you making robots?

:trll:

http://www.ib84.com/PerC/troll-bot-sm.png

[Cheesehead Craig]

Yip Yip Yip Yip Yip Yip Yip

Just ignore the little doggie. Nothing to see here.

[swede]

I had to look up Turing test. This test apparently measures a machines ability to exhibit human qualities. Extending the notion, what if people had to be able to convince a machine of their humanity? I guess that is why every time I want to do the most mundane thing on the internet I have to read and interpret a word and number whose characters are distorted and broken.

I fail that one pretty regularly and the machine declares me not to be trusted as human.

Half of why I come here is to find out whether or Green Bay can be a league dynasty despite late drafting positions and injuries to key players. The other half of the reason I come here is to hear fellow posters called out as poorly designed annoyance applications.

[mraynrand]

I guess that is why every time I want to do the most mundane thing on the internet I have to read and interpret a word and number whose characters are distorted and broken.

I have to do that every time I try to read a Woodbuck post.

[rbaloha1]

Just ignore the little doggie. Nothing to see here.

keep yipping until you choke

[rbaloha1]

Your whole basis was the Packers need bigger players. Wouldn't bigger (and most likely slower) players be more susceptible to scrambles and designed runs to guys like CK?

Please spare me the "Packers just need the Ngata, Wilfork types." There's a reason those are of the best DL of the past 10 years.

how do the seahawks do it? bigger and slower -- speak for yourself.

[rbaloha1]

I had to look up Turing test. This test apparently measures a machines ability to exhibit human qualities. Extending the notion, what if people had to be able to convince a machine of their humanity? I guess that is why every time I want to do the most mundane thing on the internet I have to read and interpret a word and number whose characters are distorted and broken.

I fail that one pretty regularly and the machine declares me not to be trusted as human.

Half of why I come here is to find out whether or Green Bay can be a league dynasty despite late drafting positions and injuries to key players. The other half of the reason I come here is to hear fellow posters called out as poorly designed annoyance applications.

poorly designed seems to be working on your feeble mind

[rbaloha1]

I have to do that every time I try to read a Woodbuck post.

another poster with a fake degree.

thought the fake girlfriend was enough -- what is next -- scared to ask with inbreded rats.

[rbaloha1]

http://www.ib84.com/PerC/troll-bot-sm.png

nice self portrait!

[mraynrand]

Just ignore the little doggie. Nothing to see here.

it's getting worse: he just soiled the carpet

[denverYooper]

I'm beginning to think this thread is some kind of social experiment to prove how lousy an internet forum would be if one of the posters was a reactionary that couldn't pass a Turing test. Mad you making robots?

:trll:

You could make a trollbot by downloading a troll's response history and running it through an n-gram generator to spew out random sets of phrases that imitate said troll.

Other good candidate corpus material on which to build trollbot's vocabulary: JSO articles and pretty much any major sports site comments section.

[rbaloha1]

You could make a trollbot by downloading a troll's response history and running it through an n-gram generator to spew out random sets of phrases that imitate said troll.

Other good candidate corpus material on which to build trollbot's vocabulary: JSO articles and pretty much any major sports site comments section.

impressed by your fake degree analysis

[rbaloha1]

it's getting worse: he just soiled the carpet

just getting started with the soiling. r u joining other imbreded rats for class discussion

[swede]

just getting started with the soiling. r u joining other imbreded rats for class discussion

You used to be a good poster. I'll put flowers on Algernon's grave for you.

[rbaloha1]

You used to be a good poster. Have you read Flowers for Algernon?

yes. some of the rat posters are failed experiments. btw i know i am setting myself up -- so go for it!

[swede]

yes. some of the rat posters are failed experiments. btw i know i am setting myself up -- so go for it!

No...that was good.

[mraynrand]

yes. some of the rat posters are failed experiments.

I resemble that remark

[Zool]

My mom says I'm a catch. I'm popular.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNc45FTenhg

[Bossman641]

how do the seahawks do it? bigger and slower -- speak for yourself.

Really? Let's compare the preferred defensive starters of the Packers and Seahawks. I used the weights listed on ESPN.

Seahawks
DL - Bryant, Branch, Mebane, Clemons. Combined weight 1,213. Average weight 303
LB - Hill, Wagner, Wright. Combined weight 725. Average weight 242
DB - Sherman, Chancellor, Thomas, Browner. Combined weight 850. Average weight 213

Packers
DL - Pickett, Raji, Wilson. Combined weight 967. Average weight 322
LB - Perry, Hawk, Bishop, CM3. Combined weight 1,005. Average weight 251
DB - Williams, Woodson, Burnett, House. Combined weight 797. Average weight 199

SEA D weighs 2,788 (253 per player). Packer D weighs 2,769 (average weight 252). Only place Seattle is bigger is in the secondary.

If only we can have all of our starters gain a pound each this offseason we will be set :roll:

Seattle D was ridiculously healthy all season. Ours was not. I guess they were healthy because their starters weighed so much more. Oh wait...that can't be it.

[rbaloha1]

Really? Let's compare the preferred defensive starters of the Packers and Seahawks. I used the weights listed on ESPN.

Seahawks
DL - Bryant, Branch, Mebane, Clemons. Combined weight 1,213. Average weight 303
LB - Hill, Wagner, Wright. Combined weight 725. Average weight 242
DB - Sherman, Chancellor, Thomas, Browner. Combined weight 850. Average weight 213

Packers
DL - Pickett, Raji, Wilson. Combined weight 967. Average weight 322
LB - Perry, Hawk, Bishop, CM3. Combined weight 1,005. Average weight 251
DB - Williams, Woodson, Burnett, House. Combined weight 797. Average weight 199

SEA D weighs 2,788 (253 per player). Packer D weighs 2,769 (average weight 252). Only place Seattle is bigger is in the secondary.

If only we can have all of our starters gain a pound each this offseason we will be set :roll:

Seattle D was ridiculously healthy all season. Ours was not. I guess they were healthy because their starters weighed so much more. Oh wait...that can't be it.

Suggest sending your brilliant analysis to Mcginn.

Interesting you included Bishop and Perry in your stuff. What about Moses, Walden, Smith and Jennings?

Keep reaching for the stars.

[Bossman641]

Suggest sending your brilliant analysis to Mcginn.

Interesting you included Bishop and Perry in your stuff. What about Moses, Walden, Smith and Jennings?

Keep reaching for the stars.

Can you read? PREFERRED D starters.

Earlier in the thread you said the Packer injury problems were because they were smaller. Hence, I used the starters.

[mraynrand]

Suggest sending your brilliant analysis to Mcginn.

Interesting you included Bishop and Perry in your stuff. What about Moses, Walden, Smith and Jennings?

Keep reaching for the stars.

preferred starters. pay attention, ideologue

[rbaloha1]

Can you read? PREFERRED D starters.

Earlier in the thread you said the Packer injury problems were because they were smaller. Hence, I used the starters.

Whatever -- keep wasting time by posting.

[mraynrand]

Whatever -- keep wasting time by posting.

done and done:

http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/20700000/Dynasty-John-Forsythe-dynasty-20798050-757-656.jpg

[Bossman641]

Whatever -- keep wasting time by posting.

Think RB Think. What can you throw out there next?

[rbaloha1]

Think RB Think. What can you throw out there next?

I will save my prefered stuff for later.

Keep watching.

[Zool]

I will save my prefered stuff for later.

Keep watching.

http://i.imgur.com/ztNlJ.jpg

[mraynrand]

I will save my prefered stuff for later.

Keep watching.


http://i.ebayimg.com/t/DYNASTY-JOAN-COLLINS-LINDA-EVANS-COLOR-8X10-PHOTO-/00/s/MzgwWDMwNA==/$(KGrHqJ,!h!E6ZEEewO-BOwgiDSerg~~60_35.JPG

[rbaloha1]

It is cumming soon...

[Fritz]

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/DYNASTY-JOAN-COLLINS-LINDA-EVANS-COLOR-8X10-PHOTO-/00/s/MzgwWDMwNA==/$(KGrHqJ,!h!E6ZEEewO-BOwgiDSerg~~60_35.JPG

Those were some sexy broads. I wonder which one would've been kinkier?

[run pMc]

Weight is not the determining factor in SB trophies.
If it were, there would be a race to sign the fattest people on Earth. Then we could have Jillian Michaels weigh them and declare a winner without having to sit through all those terrible games that eat up our Sundays!

It's a copycat league. As soon as most teams go to size/weight, someone like Chip Kelly will come up with a speedy fast tempo team that outruns them. DC's are talking to college coaches now about how to defend the read option and the new wave of QB's going pro -- it won't be such a shock next season.

As much as I enjoy a McGinn opinion, I did feel like he was doing some cherry-picking in the article.
As another poster showed, the SEA D roster weighed less. They have bigger CBs and speedy undersized LBs. It's part of their scheme.

[run pMc]

Those were some sexy broads. I wonder which one would've been kinkier?

My money's on Joan Collins.

[Fritz]

Probably right. But those seemingly "good" girls, well, we know what they're like underneath. That's why we all love Ziggy so much!

[pbmax]

Probably right. But those seemingly "good" girls, well, we know what they're like underneath. That's why we all love Ziggy so much!

She dated John Derek. Collins slept with Warren Beatty. Its a tough call.

[mraynrand]

Collins slept with Warren Beatty. Its a tough call.

who didn't?

[rbaloha1]

Weight is not the determining factor in SB trophies.
If it were, there would be a race to sign the fattest people on Earth. Then we could have Jillian Michaels weigh them and declare a winner without having to sit through all those terrible games that eat up our Sundays!

It's a copycat league. As soon as most teams go to size/weight, someone like Chip Kelly will come up with a speedy fast tempo team that outruns them. DC's are talking to college coaches now about how to defend the read option and the new wave of QB's going pro -- it won't be such a shock next season.

As much as I enjoy a McGinn opinion, I did feel like he was doing some cherry-picking in the article.
As another poster showed, the SEA D roster weighed less. They have bigger CBs and speedy undersized LBs. It's part of their scheme.


Please quit making this is a single issue -- it is not.

You quit cherry picking as mindset and coaching are also part of equation. Over a season generally bigger and faster players generally beat smaller and equal fast players.

I cry UNCLE!

[mraynrand]

Over a season generally bigger and faster players generally beat smaller and equal fast players.

Who was ever arguing this point?

[smuggler]

Those were some sexy broads. I wonder which one would've been kinkier?

Uprepped this post.

[mraynrand]

I cry U.N.C.L.E.!

fify

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e9/ManFromUNCLEbook.jpg/200px-ManFromUNCLEbook.jpg

put that in your avatar and smoke it!

[mraynrand]

Those were some sexy broads. I wonder which one would've been kinkier?

repped for using 'broads' ... dames>broads

[woodbuck27]

flacco may have to sacrifice $ to keep boldin and the dude who returned the kickoff.

Jacoby Jones was 'the dude' that got in behind the 49ers deep coverage and burned the 49ers for an unexpected long pass TD.

[woodbuck27]

49 ers vs. Packers 43 carries 323 yards 4 rushing tds WIN

49 ers vs, Ravens 29 carries 182 yards 2 rushing tds LOSS

You Decide (not a political statement)

What strikes me about these stat comparisons is that the Ravens had two weeks to prepare their defense Vs the 49ers run; and still the 49ers piled up over 6 yards/carry. Regarding the Ravens winning that game. That result looked in doubt the way the 49ers roared back after the power failure.

If I'm Ted Thompson I'm looking very much at the 49ers as the team to beat in the NFC next season. He'd better be paying attention to what's going on in Seattle as well. One of the strongest features of the current NFC Champs is based in it's athleticism and physicality. Stated another way. It's based in the San Fran 49ers excellent physical condition and strengths.

I'm on the side of any Packer fan that maintains that we just cannot compete defensively because were not prepared enough to do so based in talent and experience. It's OK if TT decides to tear up the old plan, if that decision maintains some common sense. You cannot turn a Volkswagon into a Porsch. You cannot maintain that your a legitimate Super Bowl contender when your team has demonstrated a two year decline.

Ted Thompson has a criticle off season. Ted Thompson has to make tough decisions and 'demonstrate toughness' in doing so. Ted Thompson has to do alot to correct the Green Bay Packers. As a Packer fan I expect only one thing. To see some real effort but forth in that direction. It's time for change in Green Bay.

It's time to say goodbye to Charles Woodson's contract.

Ted Thompson needs 2013 to do a final analysis of our TE position and that may be without JerMichael Finley.

Ted Thompson has to use 2013 to critically assess B. J. Raji.

Ted Thompson needs to upgrade our LBer position with strength and speed. We need to see a push through the middle and a seal placed on the edge.

Every defensive player needs to be able to tackle. If a player fails to demonstrate that ability then he must be cut. I expect to see that done before our final 2013 roster is finalized.

All over out team needs to improve. The results of that will not show up in terms of a Super Bowl next season; but as a Packer fan I expect to see progress in terms of action and reaction.

GO PACKERS !

[mraynrand]

If I'm Ted Thompson I'm looking very much at the 49ers as the team to beat in the NFC next season. He'd better be paying attention to what's going on in Seattle as well. One of the strongest features of the current NFC Champs is based in it's athleticism and physicality. Stated another way. It's based in the San Fran 49ers excellent physical condition and strengths.

Fresh! Riveting! I've heard somewhere recently that larger, faster players are better than smaller equally fast players. In related news, soda pop is better cold than warm.

[hoosier]

It is better to live on your feet than to die on your knees.

[mraynrand]

It is better to live on your feet than to die on your knees.

It's better to die on your knees than crawl on your belly

[Pugger]

And they stay the same: The Packers are an extremely well-run organization, a GM that builds for depth and, and with a coaching staff that makes the best use of what they have, and doesn't carp about injuries. Packers are one of the handful of teams well-positioned to win the SB next year.

The modern NFL destroys dynasties, but a good organization and a few exceptional players in key positions can get you multiple titles.

If we think about it we kinda are a dynasty of sorts in today's NFL. We are usually in the hunt year after year and keep producing 10+ winning seasons even tho TT is drafting towards the bottom of each round in the draft. NE is another team that seems to be there every year for the same reasons.

[Smeefers]

Daniels and Neal can not morph into Wolfork, Ngata types.

Worthy shrunk during the season.

D line does not have enough big bodies -- it is on TT.

I hate to try and bring this conversation back to football. You guys do like beating on each other like prissy teenagers at a school dance. I for one like RB's constant disagreeing. If everyone here was on the same page... boy oh boy, this place would suck balls.

Anyway, I think Daniels and Worthy still have a lot of growing to do. I've said it before, it's extremely rare for a player to come into the league and instantly play at a high level. It generally takes a few years for them to mature into a great player. I think Nick Collins is an excellent example of this. He played like garbage to start his career, but the second it clicked, he was one of the best damn safeties in the league. Give our line time before you decided to flush them all and start from scratch.

[Pugger]

I hate to try and bring this conversation back to football. You guys do like beating on each other like prissy teenagers at a school dance. I for one like RB's constant disagreeing. If everyone here was on the same page... boy oh boy, this place would suck balls.

Anyway, I think Daniels and Worthy still have a lot of growing to do. I've said it before, it's extremely rare for a player to come into the league and instantly play at a high level. It generally takes a few years for them to mature into a great player. I think Nick Collins is an excellent example of this. He played like garbage to start his career, but the second it clicked, he was one of the best damn safeties in the league. Give our line time before you decided to flush them all and start from scratch.

You said it.

I don't think we have to start from scratch either. First we need some of our guys back healthy. Getting Bishop and Perry back would be nice. Having Bulaga back plus have Sherrod and Newhouse duke it out at LT and that will make both of them better. I think we can win with EDS but it won't hurt to draft another center. If he beats out EDS we still have EDS as a backup center/guard. Barclay and whomever loses the LT job will be great backups. If Jennings leaves we'll have to draft a WR. RB is another area of need. Harris is nice but we can do better there.

We still are trying to replace Collins. This is one area of immediate need. Will the return of Bishop be enough to solidify the middle? We need a DE/DT that can rush the passer. We have 2 D linemen that are pretty stout against the run (Pickett and Wilson) but they aren't so hot rushing the QB. Lord knows what we'll do with Woodson. He's pretty good against the run and his leadership is unquestioned but he is no spring chicken and doesn't have the speed he once did. Will he take a pay cut?

We have to remember we just went 12-6 (including the 2 playoff games) with our current crop of players plus several starters on IR. I find it incredible that TT can keep this roster this deep and we keep winning when you consider where he is drafting in each round every year despite all of our injuries. If there is any area of concern that should be investigated I think we ought to find out why we have ridiculous numbers of players hurt every stinkin' year.

[Guiness]

You said it.

I don't think we have to start from scratch either.

Quite - and anyone who suggests otherwise is trolling or really, really not paying attention. Last 3 years: SB, 15-1, 11-5 and a playoff victory. Players at all levels of their careers: some blue chip vets, some guys who've been in the league 3-4 years who're entering/are in their prime, and some 1st-2nd year players who've made the the team and are ripe to develop.

There isn't a franchise in the league that would give their first born for that. Advocating scrapping what we've got? :wow:

[George Cumby]

"If there is any area of concern that should be investigated I think we ought to find out why we have ridiculous numbers of players hurt every stinkin' year."

This.

[rbaloha1]

"If there is any area of concern that should be investigated I think we ought to find out why we have ridiculous numbers of players hurt every stinkin' year."

This.

does this having anything possibly to do with size and/or training methods?

[Joemailman]

The run on injuries this year really began in training camp and the preseason. MM was cutting practices short because of a lack of bodies at certain positions. He said they would be looking at everything (training, practice schedule, etc.) to try to determine why this happened. Unlikely we'll ever hear whatever conclusion, if any, they came to though. It's happened 2 of the last 3 years. I don't recall the injury situation being particularly bad in 2011.

[Pugger]

does this having anything possibly to do with size and/or training methods?

Maybe. Something is going on because the number of guys we have injured each year is concerning to say the least. :???:

[Fritz]

My concerns with Worthy and Daniels have to do with whether they are the right body type to play the type of defense necessary to stop the read option. But since I don't really know how one goes about stopping that - I'm guessing it's got to do with three big boys holding ground and tying up multiple blockers - well, then maybe I'm just worried over nothing.

[rbaloha1]

My concerns with Worthy and Daniels have to do with whether they are the right body type to play the type of defense necessary to stop the read option. But since I don't really know how one goes about stopping that - I'm guessing it's got to do with three big boys holding ground and tying up multiple blockers - well, then maybe I'm just worried over nothing.

Please spread the word...

[Smeefers]

Injuries are pretty much all luck. No matter how you slice it. You never hear anyone say "Man, I would of totally torn my ACL, except my trainer gave me this super special secret exercise to do, in order to prevent that." Training is training, if you put in the time, you get a benefit out of it, but it's not a stop gap. I can guarantee you that Clay Mathews has been to every hamstring expert in the country, but there's still a good chance he's going to pull it pretty bad next year. He does it every year. It's how things go.

[rbaloha1]

Injuries are pretty much all luck. No matter how you slice it. You never hear anyone say "Man, I would of totally torn my ACL, except my trainer gave me this super special secret exercise to do, in order to prevent that." Training is training, if you put in the time, you get a benefit out of it, but it's not a stop gap. I can guarantee you that Clay Mathews has been to every hamstring expert in the country, but there's still a good chance he's going to pull it pretty bad next year. He does it every year. It's how things go.

why are the packers continually unlucky?

[pbmax]

why are the packers continually unlucky?

Not enough free weights.

If not that, then too many free weights.

[rbaloha1]

Not enough free weights.

If not that, then too many free weights.

MM changed the lifting regime from Sherman.

Something is not working.

The 49ers have a guy they believe in. If I recall he believes in continual heavy lifting throughout the season.

[pbmax]

MM changed the lifting regime from Sherman.

Something is not working.

The 49ers have a guy they believe in. If I recall he believes in continual heavy lifting throughout the season.

Its been changed twice. First Gullickson, then Redman and now Redman's trainee.

[George Cumby]

Its been changed twice. First Gullickson, then Redman and now Redman's trainee.

I thought Gullickson was the fall guy for Harrell's injury.

IIRC, Redman was pretty squared away.

Don't know about the new guy.

I also thought that they'd ditched the stupid machines under Gullickson.

[mraynrand]

Not enough free weights.

If not that, then too many free weights.

:lol:

[Guiness]

I thought Gullickson was the fall guy for Harrell's injury.

IIRC, Redman was pretty squared away.

Don't know about the new guy.

I also thought that they'd ditched the stupid machines under Gullickson.

Ya, Gullickson got rid of the Nautilus fad that seemed to have infected a lot of NFL weight rooms. He's in St-Louis now.

[George Cumby]

Well, here's a vid of the weight room from '09, not too many machines:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWlgzHk3LOk

[rbaloha1]

I thought Gullickson was the fall guy for Harrell's injury.

IIRC, Redman was pretty squared away.

Don't know about the new guy.

I also thought that they'd ditched the stupid machines under Gullickson.

Musical chairs are not good.

Wasn't there a time recently the Packers were having numerous hamstrings issues attributed to training methods?

[Patler]

Wasn't there a time recently the Packers were having numerous hamstrings issues attributed to training methods?

Attributed by who to their training methods? The Packers themselves?
Speculated by fans here and elsewhere, perhaps.

[sharpe1027]

The thing with the injuries is that they are all over the place: backs, concussions, hands, knees, hamstrings, flu, ankles, hips, shoulders, collarbones, etc. I find it difficult to believe that poor training could be the cause of so many different injuries.

I think maybe they are being too physical. Yeah, that's it. If the Packers played less physical, then they would have less injuries.

[denverYooper]

The thing with the injuries is that they are all over the place: backs, concussions, hands, knees, hamstrings, flu, ankles, hips, shoulders, collarbones, etc. I find it difficult to believe that poor training could be the cause of so many different injuries.

I think maybe they are being too physical. Yeah, that's it. If the Packers played less physical, then they would have less injuries.

Everyone knows that playing more physically results in fewer injuries. I think McGinn wrote an article wherein he assigned each team a physicality rating and then showed a clear linear trend between that physicality rating and the number of injuries. His figures also showed an R^2 of 0.95 between his patented eliteness rating and that physicality rating.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Everyone knows that playing more physically results in fewer injuries. I think McGinn wrote an article wherein he assigned each team a physicality rating and then showed a clear linear trend between that physicality rating and the number of injuries. His figures also showed an R^2 of 0.95 between his patented eliteness rating and that physicality rating.

That still doesn't explain the unanswered question though: Why is the rum gone?

[pbmax]

I think hammies were on ongoing thing in one year and M3 changed the practice patterns to allow more rest and recovery to account for fatigue injuries.

Shoulders were another pattern and that happened over two years I think. Not sure if that ever got addressed. As of now, the only pattern is Matthews hamstring, which apparently is strung like suspension bridge. Or a violin bow. Or a Nyjer Morgan kite strng. Sorry, I am not a structural engineer so that's the best I got.

[sharpe1027]

I think hammies were on ongoing thing in one year and M3 changed the practice patterns to allow more rest and recovery to account for fatigue injuries.

Shoulders were another pattern and that happened over two years I think. Not sure if that ever got addressed. As of now, the only pattern is Matthews hamstring, which apparently is strung like suspension bridge. Or a violin bow. Or a Nyjer Morgan kite strng. Sorry, I am not a structural engineer so that's the best I got.

Pad level addressed that.

[mraynrand]

I think hammies were on ongoing thing in one year and M3 changed the practice patterns to allow more rest and recovery to account for fatigue injuries.

Shoulders were another pattern and that happened over two years I think. Not sure if that ever got addressed. As of now, the only pattern is Matthews hamstring, which apparently is strung like suspension bridge. Or a violin bow. Or a Nyjer Morgan kite strng. Sorry, I am not a structural engineer so that's the best I got.

tacoma narrows bridge

[Freak Out]

They all had to get off the juice once they got to the NFL.

[pbmax]

Pad level addressed that.

Good point. And extra good (read: low) pad level puts those hamstrings at risk. Which is why Matthews is a great leverage player with hamstrings made out of Gainesburger.

[Smeefers]

why are the packers continually unlucky?

Pretty much. There's always a finger to point, but there's never any kind of hard evidence you can slap on the table to prove why we've gotten injured more than other teams. We can make wild speculation about the cause of it, but in reality each and every injury has a specific reason why it happened. They all can't be traced back to one point. Someone landed wrong, someone used a poor technique, someone's foot got caught on the shitty soldier field. Guys get hurt, there's no rhyme or reason behind it and to attempt to assign a trainer with some mythical power to prevent all the injuries is an injustice.