A NEW TREND FOR RB's from the U in the NFL...COMING SOON

[Bretsky]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/ball-looks-to-set-new-trend-for-uw-backs-in-nfl-rt9i5s1-203946321.html?page=1

[Bretsky]

Bash me as the Cardinal and Red Homer; this will b the last thread I create on Monte Ball
I will go on record as saying he's going to very a very solid RB in the NFL and we would be fortunate to have him as a Green Bay Packer
I think he'd be a solid starter for the next 5-8 years on a team that can get away with having sub par running backs.....as we already have
Interesting comparisons....he's been compared by many to Curtis Martin....and now a tougher version of Shawn Alexander
There are no character questions with this guy; any articles that refers to them is IMO by an uninformed author

Due to my Badger Homerism, I will be cheering for Green Bay to draft Monte Ball in either the 2nd or 3rd round. IMO it's a pipe dream for anybody to think we can get him in 4

With that being said, IMO the Packers have let the cup go too bare in the trenches on both sides of the ball. Signing the Steeler DL, or a credible cost effective FA would have given GB flexibility to draft a guy like Monte. But if I'm right we don't even sniff a RB til round 4 at the soonest.

From the Packers standpoint, the cup is bare enough that it would be hard for them to draft Ball in round one or two (with the need at DL/OL/S) even if Ball is the BPA.
Even in round three, deep down I wonder if we have too many needs to draft a guy like Monte even though IMO he's a huge value there. I don't think Schwenke makes it to us in round 3, but the dude is probably a better fit for GB's needs than a QB.

All of this is a bit depressing. I see Ball being a great fit in GB but deep down we have too many needs to draft him where we should.

I'm predicting Ball gets drafted by the Steelers and if GB doesn't get him I hope he heads there and has the career I think he will have.

[red]

article makes a lot of sense

UW usually has one of, if not the best o-lines in the nation every single year. are running backs just benefiting from that?

[Bretsky]

HOMER DISCLOSURE FROM THE PAST:

Brent Moss- He was a bad ass who ran hard. But I never thought he'd be big time due to character

Terrell Fletcher- I was fairly sure he's be a solid RB in the pros. Not star but a solid player. BALL is more powerful that Fletcher and a better player IMO

Carl Mccoloch- Touted as a Eric Dickerson type and he was very very good as a freshman. But he never got better and Dayne arrived and he was second tier at the U. I knew he would not make it in the pros

Ron Dayne- I was torn on this guy- I loved him as a Badger; my first daughter's middle name is "Dayne" spelled the same way. But while the talent was there he was playing behind several first round draft picks and his running style and lack of receiving ability and blocking ability did not make him a good fit in the pros. I hoped he would make it but never thought he's be big time. He was lazy as well.....I had friend that hung with him....and occasionally did the funny stuff with him in the summers.

John Clay- I never liked John Clay's potential as a pro; he was one of the most talented RB's ever to come out of WI in high school but his work ethic and attitude were marginal at best

Monte Ball- I think he can make it. Solid starter.....not a Hall of Famer....but we'd be fortunate to have him.

[rbaloha1]

Do not waste a pick on a rb given the weakness of the lines.

[Bretsky]

that is the valid questoin .............I was wondering how others feel

Are that devoid of talent on the DL that we have to spend either our 1st or 2nd on a DL....and maybe even two ?

[Joemailman]

that is the valid questoin .............I was wondering how others feel

Are that devoid of talent on the DL that we have to spend either our 1st or 2nd on a DL....and maybe even two ?

Probably one but not both. There is some depth at DL in this draft. You probably want 2 guys, but at least one could come in the middle rounds.

[rbaloha1]

that is the valid questoin .............I was wondering how others feel

Are that devoid of talent on the DL that we have to spend either our 1st or 2nd on a DL....and maybe even two ?

Yes -- 579

[pbmax]

Yes -- 579

I would love to see the D lineman that would have caught Kapernick on his 50+ yard TD run around Erik Walden.

[rbaloha1]

I would love to see the D lineman that would have caught Kapernick on his 50+ yard TD run around Erik Walden.

Its about filling gaps and knowing assignments.

The Walden subtraction along with some young strong linemen that have played against spread option helps.

[rbaloha1]

I would love to see the D lineman that would have caught Kapernick on his 50+ yard TD run around Erik Walden.

What is your answer to 579?

[pbmax]

What is your answer to 579?

Play better defense.

[Patler]

Play better defense.

Simple enough when you get down to it!

[rbaloha1]

Play better defense.

What does that mean?

[rbaloha1]

Simple enough when you get down to it!

Can you add a super bowl too?

[rbaloha1]

Simple enough when you get down to it!

More Laurel and Hardy logic.

[rbaloha1]

Dumb and Dumber have resurfaced.

[Patler]

I would love to see the D lineman that would have caught Kapernick on his 50+ yard TD run around Erik Walden.

I brought this up once before, and got shot down very quickly; but, I'll say it again anyway! :-)

We all hang on the poor play by Walden that resulted in a 50 yard TD. That run stuck out like a sore thumb on a hand without any fingers.

But, there was an almost identical play to the other side, and Matthews did almost the identical thing as Waldon did. Reacted the same way. The difference was a DB came up and made the tackle after a much shorter gain. But as for Matthews on that play...no different than Walden.

My point being that Walden wasn't all that was wrong on that play or in that game. Your simple but eloquent post that the answer is to play better defense is very true. Better doesn't have to be "tougher", although many will see it that way. In all sports, if you play defense correctly you are more effective. Effective defense is equated with "toughness" even if the players are not more physical.

[rbaloha1]

If you can't get off blocks better means nothing.

Obviously the Colts agree with you.

Walden is only good for being the first guy off the bus.

If TT called you and said -- "please help me with 579" your response "is play better defense."

Sorry Hawk & company shall get massacred again against the niners.

Maybe the defensive guru capers learned something from tamu.

[pbmax]

I do not know enough about the pro game to break down the X and Os with any authority. But for an example, I give you the 2012 Packer defense versus Adrian Peterson.

In two games (one of them with Percy Harvin I believe) Packer D gets ripped for 400 yards on the ground by Purple Jesus. With Harvin out, Packers still gave up nearly 200 yards. So I deduce that defensive focus, scheme or multiple weapons have little to do with Peterson's success.

I also observe that Peterson's biggest runs were 2nd choice runs, where he putted along, biding his time and waited for an opening. And most of those openings were cutbacks from the original direction, often not just cutting to the backside by a hole or two, but taking around the opposite end.

Game 3 in playoffs could have been about Joe Webb. But Packers were worried about Webb and a read option package, so the safeties were cheating to the edges not filling in the middle of the field. And Peterson was getting yards against 8 in the box anyway. But what happened was that Peterson spent most of his day hitting the hole that was originally called. His few cutbacks were non-descript and not nearly as productive as they had been previously.

Now you could claim it was merely a bad game for All Day. That the Vikings weren't used to cold weather. Or that the Packers were "up" for this game unlike the others. I find all of this to be hogwash, used to explain results that don't fit the narrative.

Far more reasonable and a better fit for available facts is that all week the coaches had stressed staying in their lanes and not trying to make a play versus Peterson one on one. Raji was the most guilty party here with Matthews second from the previous two games. There is nothing mysterious about the Vikings running Peterson out of a I formation. Everyone knows where the ball is headed after 2 steps.

But if the defense tries to converge on that one spot and 3 players are in one gap trying to get their mitts on AP while fending off a blocker, that means that there are unoccupied gaps elsewhere. And the guy most often left to defend those unoccupied gaps was Walden who had a habit of taking a bad line too quickly from the backside and getting sucked underneath a cutback.

In that playoff game, the Packer D did not acquire better personnel and Capers did not consult Bill Arnsparger about how to play a new variety of 3-4. They stuck to their most basic of assignments. It meant that Peterson average over 4 yards per run to the called hole, which isn't the best result ever, but it was an improvement. It also mean that Peterson was running into the teeth of a defense where five players could get their hands on him during that 4 yard run. No one had to run stride for stride with him down the sideline. He broke fewer big plays and if the Packers stuffed him on 1st or 2nd down, then Webb would have to make a play to get a first.

Now, could the Packers use a bigger DE with a little pass rush or another CJ Wilson or Jolly to stuff the run? Sure. They have Neal and Wilson and one of those guys is average and the other is just recovering his pass rush and is somewhat unknown against the run in base. Daniels and Worthy might just be for pass rush. Could the Packers use a NT to keep Raji from having to play there and guard against his departure? Sure.

But the Packers don't need to be anything other than smarter and more patient to prevent the 49ers from getting 579 again.

[rbaloha1]

Boy some people like to hear themselves talk.

[rbaloha1]

Smarter and patient does not negate physical superiority or word count.

[Bretsky]

I do not know enough about the pro game to break down the X and Os with any authority. But for an example, I give you the 2012 Packer defense versus Adrian Peterson.

In two games (one of them with Percy Harvin I believe) Packer D gets ripped for 400 yards on the ground by Purple Jesus. With Harvin out, Packers still gave up nearly 200 yards. So I deduce that defensive focus, scheme or multiple weapons have little to do with Peterson's success.

I also observe that Peterson's biggest runs were 2nd choice runs, where he putted along, biding his time and waited for an opening. And most of those openings were cutbacks from the original direction, often not just cutting to the backside by a hole or two, but taking around the opposite end.

Game 3 in playoffs could have been about Joe Webb. But Packers were worried about Webb and a read option package, so the safeties were cheating to the edges not filling in the middle of the field. And Peterson was getting yards against 8 in the box anyway. But what happened was that Peterson spent most of his day hitting the hole that was originally called. His few cutbacks were non-descript and not nearly as productive as they had been previously.

Now you could claim it was merely a bad game for All Day. That the Vikings weren't used to cold weather. Or that the Packers were "up" for this game unlike the others. I find all of this to be hogwash, used to explain results that don't fit the narrative.

Far more reasonable and a better fit for available facts is that all week the coaches had stressed staying in their lanes and not trying to make a play versus Peterson one on one. Raji was the most guilty party here with Matthews second from the previous two games. There is nothing mysterious about the Vikings running Peterson out of a I formation. Everyone knows where the ball is headed after 2 steps.

But if the defense tries to converge on that one spot and 3 players are in one gap trying to get their mitts on AP while fending off a blocker, that means that there are unoccupied gaps elsewhere. And the guy most often left to defend those unoccupied gaps was Walden who had a habit of taking a bad line too quickly from the backside and getting sucked underneath a cutback.

In that playoff game, the Packer D did not acquire better personnel and Capers did not consult Bill Arnsparger about how to play a new variety of 3-4. They stuck to their most basic of assignments. It meant that Peterson average over 4 yards per run to the called hole, which isn't the best result ever, but it was an improvement. It also mean that Peterson was running into the teeth of a defense where five players could get their hands on him during that 4 yard run. No one had to run stride for stride with him down the sideline. He broke fewer big plays and if the Packers stuffed him on 1st or 2nd down, then Webb would have to make a play to get a first.

Now, could the Packers use a bigger DE with a little pass rush or another CJ Wilson or Jolly to stuff the run? Sure. They have Neal and Wilson and one of those guys is average and the other is just recovering his pass rush and is somewhat unknown against the run in base. Daniels and Worthy might just be for pass rush. Could the Packers use a NT to keep Raji from having to play there and guard against his departure? Sure.

But the Packers don't need to be anything other than smarter and more patient to prevent the 49ers from getting 579 again.


Given our needs/aka deficiences......I AM CURIOUS

Can Green Bay afford to drafta RB in round 2 or 3 ?
In other words, if Monte Ball is the BPA, who in here thinks TT should draft him ?

[rbaloha1]

Given our needs/aka deficiences......I AM CURIOUS

Can Green Bay afford to drafta RB in round 2 or 3 ?
In other words, if Monte Ball is the BPA, who in here thinks TT should draft him ?

BPA is a smoke screen not to give away who you really want.

579 is what this draft is about -- simply playing better defense is not possible with the current roster.

[pbmax]

If you can't get off blocks better means nothing.

Obviously the Colts agree with you.

Walden is only good for being the first guy off the bus.

If TT called you and said -- "please help me with 579" your response "is play better defense."

Sorry Hawk & company shall get massacred again against the niners.

Maybe the defensive guru capers learned something from tamu.

I am not arguing that they cannot get better. CJ Wilson is a role player, though it is an important role in a 3-4 base D. Raji, Worthy and Daniels all seem to be miscast in one way or another.

But that wasn't what caused 579. The 49ers beat a lot of other teams with worse personnel without that kind of offensive performance.

They need to play their defense better. Patler above mentions a case where Matthews whiffed on Gore and got spun around (I will say this for Matthews over Walden: I think Matthew had the dive guy on that play and Walden had the keeper). But the play did not hemorrhage worse because a DB made a good play for a tackle. That is all, a simple tackle.

[Patler]

Given our needs/aka deficiences......I AM CURIOUS

Can Green Bay afford to drafta RB in round 2 or 3 ?
In other words, if Monte Ball is the BPA, who in here thinks TT should draft him ?

If Monte Ball is the BPA in round 2, the Packers should trade down. (Boy, I'll bet this one comes back to bite me!)

[rbaloha1]

Who cares about other teams? The Packers have a major weakness the whole league knows about and shall continued to be exploited until they can stop the pistol and spread option.

[Bretsky]

If Monte Ball is the BPA in round 2, the Packers should trade down. (Boy, I'll bet this one comes back to bite me!)


He very well may be........but I appreciate you giving a solid answer. Other needs outweight taking a RB in round 2; I may be making as assumption but that is your take. Most are projecting Ball to go mid to end of 2 or early 3. What if he fell to 3 ? Do you take him there or take something of greater need (there will be OL help there) ?

[rbaloha1]

If Monte Ball is the BPA in round 2, the Packers should trade down. (Boy, I'll bet this one comes back to bite me!)

Agree only if Teo is still available.

[pbmax]

Given our needs/aka deficiences......I AM CURIOUS

Can Green Bay afford to drafta RB in round 2 or 3 ?
In other words, if Monte Ball is the BPA, who in here thinks TT should draft him ?

My fear about Ball (or any RB who is not Peterson or Gore) is that he might be Brandon Jackson. Who was a solid pro but was not going to win you any games by himself. What he did offer (and Ball would offer) was solid play in all three phases, running, blocking and receiving. So unless there is a physical marvel there like Nick Collins in the second round to help the D or O line, I would say take him. Nothing better than young talent.

[rbaloha1]

My fear about Ball (or any RB who is not Peterson or Gore) is that he might be Brandon Jackson. Who was a solid pro but was not going to win you any games by himself. What he did offer (and Ball would offer) was solid play in all three phases, running, blocking and receiving. So unless there is a physical marvel there like Nick Collins in the second round to help the D or O line, I would say take him. Nothing better than young talent.

What if Matt Barkley is available?

[Bretsky]

I think Ball is one of the top 60 players but I think GB is more desperate at certain positions than in the past so I doubt TT would take him. I'm normally heartbroken when it comes to Badgers so I've built up quite a wall to protect me against my feelings relapsing from when we drafted Terd Buckley over Troy Vincent.

I may have to create a poll in here.

It could be a future poll for all to see what others predicted (for those who are willing to put themselves out there) on Monte Ball

[Bretsky]

What if Matt Barkley is available?


Ball is a better football player than Matt Barkley, who will be drafted sooner because GM's tend to overvalue QB's and undervalue RB's

[rbaloha1]

Troy Vincent was a major mistake.

[Patler]

He very well may be........but I appreciate you giving a solid answer. Other needs outweight taking a RB in round 2; I may be making as assumption but that is your take. Most are projecting Ball to go mid to end of 2 or early 3. What if he fell to 3 ? Do you take him there or take something of greater need (there will be OL help there) ?

I would take him at the end of round 3. If he is BPA in round 2, I suspect there is a glut of players of similar talent, and I would look to trade with someone who has a higher 3 & something in the 4th to give up for it. I like picks in the 4th round and up. 5th round and down are long shots, regardless.

[rbaloha1]

Ball is a better football player than Matt Barkley, who will be drafted sooner because GM's tend to overvalue QB's and undervalue RB's

Where is on TT's board -- is he higher or lower than Ball?

The Pack ain't taken no Ball. Why? Does he play defense?

[pbmax]

What if Matt Barkley is available?

Trade down. If he has fallen that far, someone will want him. Might raise the Packer talent level, but not enough (since he would not start) to make him worth more than another 3rd round pick.

[rbaloha1]

Trade down. If he has fallen that far, someone will want him. Might raise the Packer talent level, but not enough (since he would not start) to make him worth more than another 3rd round pick.

Who says Ball would start in GB?

[pbmax]

Who says Ball would start in GB?

Ball would stand a much better chance to start in GB over current occupants than Barkley over Rodgers. Not to mention rookie RB versus QB comparison's.

[Patler]

Troy Vincent was a major mistake.

That one was a real head-scratcher, and not just for Badger fans. It just seemed so very, very wrong; even through the green and gold goggles of a packer fan who isn't a Badger fan and wanted to put a positive spin on it for the Packers.

[Bretsky]

Where is on TT's board -- is he higher or lower than Ball?

The Pack ain't taken no Ball. Why? Does he play defense?


I was expressing an opinion...which....but the way...is the same thing you offer
Neither of us know what in the heck TT's board is

By your logic, we ain't taking nothing else but defense ? I think you will be proven wrong with a few picks and I'd be surprised if at least one of the top 4 picks is not on offense.

[Bretsky]

Who says Ball would start in GB?


Who says any of the defensieve guys you like will start in GB ?

[rbaloha1]

Who says any of the defensieve guys you like will start in GB ?

Better chance than Ball especially since Ball does not play defense.

[rbaloha1]

I was expressing an opinion...which....but the way...is the same thing you offer
Neither of us know what in the heck TT's board is

By your logic, we ain't taking nothing else but defense ? I think you will be proven wrong with a few picks and I'd be surprised if at least one of the top 4 picks is not on offense.

579

[Bretsky]

579

overrated

[Bretsky]

Better chance than Ball especially since Ball does not play defense.


There are several positions on defense with more capable starters than we have at RB

[rbaloha1]

overrated

Not according to mm -- only your feeble mind.

[rbaloha1]

Go watch "I Love Lucy" for your Ball Fixation

Unfortunately your boy is not coming to GB -- get over it

[Bretsky]

Not according to mm -- only your feeble mind.

You are a troll.

The way you often come accross in here......somebody giving you a feeble mind would be a compliment.....you are a broken record. Wist makes a ton of good points consistently in here content wise w/o throwing cheap shots at different posters. You could take lessons from him. It was my mistake to think it was worth the time. You can go on and I will do my best to never respond to you.

[rbaloha1]

You are a troll.

The way you often come accross in here......somebody giving you a feeble mind would be a compliment.....you are a broken record. Wist makes a ton of good points consistently in here content wise w/o throwing cheap shots at different posters. You could take lessons from him. It was my mistake to think it was worth the time. You can go on and I will do my best to never respond to you.

go troll on this moron and quit acting like some sophisticated person -- you sir are a phony and a legend in your own feeble mind.

[Pugger]

Do not waste a pick on a rb given the weakness of the lines.

But could a back that is better than anything we have presently on the roster make our weak run blocking line look better than they are? The better backs can make something out of nothing and we haven't seen a RB like that around here since Ahman Green. :?

[HarveyWallbangers]

I'm on record as saying that I like Ball, but I do think we have more pressing needs and the draft is supposed to be good at OL and DL. Unless somebody unexpectedly falls in the Packers lap, I think that's the direction TT goes. Where is Ball projected to go now? Could we trade back and still get him at the top of the 3rd round. I wouldn't mind finding a way to get Marcus Lattimore at the right spot either. Problem is: I don't know where that right spot is because I don't know how far along his recovery is and if the chances are good that he'll be as good as he was.

[woodbuck27]

"IMO the Packers have let the cup go too bare in the trenches on both sides of the ball. Signing the Steeler DL, or a credible cost effective FA would have given GB flexibility to draft a guy like Monte." B.

That's tough and real analysis Bretsky. I feel badly for you. I know you believe in Montee Ball as our next RB.

I know that now you realize clearly that's not going to happen.

It really upsets me that TT let us down in Free Agency and specificaly in regard to the DL and DT. I'm simply shocked to have suffered through that obvious need (DT/NT) being ignored by Ted Thompson.

There were options available in FA for TT to cover that base; take pressure off of this (his) draft. I've been calling for that move by TT since the season ended, because it's too obvious. It was a 'no brainer' for TT to focus on that particular move.

Look at the status of our DL and size/talent; then add so many of our DLman in a final contract year.

TT has placed enormous pressure on himself and any discussion and DL. Sadly... it appears to me that it gets worse. I'll not go there in this post. I don't believe in the burden of overload.

I'm sorry Packer fans but because he failed the Packers in Free Agency and the DL ie DT/NT. I have to flat out say I'm terribly disappointed in Ted Thompson. I'm confused by his neglect and our DL.

Now excuse me but I have to go outside; screem and beat up a tree. :beat:

"But if I'm right we don't even sniff a RB til round 4 at the soonest." Bretsky

OK .... That poor tree.

Translation>>> Screw the running game again...and MM >>> blame TT if it stands as it sure looks like it will after the draft. I have to take a DT in Rd. 1 or 2 of a Mock and I see RB's like Eddie Lacy and Geovani Bernard (Montee Ball) droping to be a real fit at Pick #55.

Forget all that noise.

" From the Packers standpoint, the cup is bare enough that it would be hard for them to draft Ball in round one or two (with the need at DL/OL/S) even if Ball is the BPA. Even in round three, deep down I wonder if we have too many needs to draft a guy like Monte even though IMO he's a huge value there."

The worst part. Big bodied DT/NT... Hell No!

That was a primary focus for our teams GM and fixing that in FA. If you imagine that was done with returning Johnny Jolly? Good luck with that.

If you tear open an arm or leg? Do you treat that with a band-aid when you need to start with a bandage before the fricken' stitches or just bleed to death?

Heck! OK I'm frustrated...maybe you detect that?

So we discuss the draft and who and where to get that DT/NT. Thanks Ted Thompson. What was supposed to be a luxury pick now is a dire need. Yes...forget RB until maybe? Rd. 5. That will get us about as much as pissin' into the north wind.

The priority need was a 3-4 DE, a SS and then a Center, WR and then..... a RB. before that strong/big DT. TT has to get real now and simply try to keep up. Any whisper of Super Bowl!? Hahhhh ! The strongest teams got stronger this off season and we went to still/stagnant water.

Running game like pass rushing 3-4 DE....an illusion !

go pack go.

[rbaloha1]

But could a back that is better than anything we have presently on the roster make our weak run blocking line look better than they are? The better backs can make something out of nothing and we haven't seen a RB like that around here since Ahman Green. :?

imo lacy is the only back in this year draft that fits this description.

the draft features some good small backs but harris is a keeper.

[3irty1]

Of course we could spend any pick on a RB and a rookie could be an impact player right from the get go. Ball is going to need the right system to be any good IMO but I do think the Packers are a good fit. He does all the small things not just well but elite which is very important for a multiples offense like ours.

The Packers are set for interior passrushers on the line between Neal, Daniels, and Raji. What they need is a rotational guy in the Pickett/Wilson mold who can be counted on to eat up 2 gaps worth of blocks. It even takes 1st round DT's a couple of years to be any good at that so I don't think any rookie DL will mask any deficiencies for 2013. A mid round guy with an NFL body to compete with Jolly in camp for the injured Worthy's roster spot is what is needed IMO.

[3irty1]

But could a back that is better than anything we have presently on the roster make our weak run blocking line look better than they are? The better backs can make something out of nothing and we haven't seen a RB like that around here since Ahman Green. :?

That's just greedy. I'd be happy with another Ryan Grant... just don't leave any yards on the field and don't fumble the ball and we've got a running game that you can build an offense around. Sounds like I'm not asking for much but Alex Green has terrible vision. Kuhn is too slow to get through a hole before it closes, and Stark is a glass doll.

[rbaloha1]

I'm on record as saying that I like Ball, but I do think we have more pressing needs and the draft is supposed to be good at OL and DL. Unless somebody unexpectedly falls in the Packers lap, I think that's the direction TT goes. Where is Ball projected to go now? Could we trade back and still get him at the top of the 3rd round. I wouldn't mind finding a way to get Marcus Lattimore at the right spot either. Problem is: I don't know where that right spot is because I don't know how far along his recovery is and if the chances are good that he'll be as good as he was.

The track record of wisconsin rbs in the nfl is not good. Thank goodness TT does not fall for Badger hysteria to draft Badger players.

A late round gem can be found.

[rbaloha1]

Of course we could spend any pick on a RB and a rookie could be an impact player right from the get go. Ball is going to need the right system to be any good IMO but I do think the Packers are a good fit. He does all the small things not just well but elite which is very important for a multiples offense like ours.

The Packers are set for interior passrushers on the line between Neal, Daniels, and Raji. What they need is a rotational guy in the Pickett/Wilson mold who can be counted on to eat up 2 gaps worth of blocks. It even takes 1st round DT's a couple of years to be any good at that so I don't think any rookie DL will mask any deficiencies for 2013. A mid round guy with an NFL body to compete with Jolly in camp for the injured Worthy's roster spot is what is needed IMO.

There are numerous issues with current d-line:

1. Age -- Pickett imo is the best d-linemen but may have only 1-2 seasons left.

2. Uncertainity -- Love Jolly but it is unsure of how much JJ can contribute. Raji could be gone after this season. Worthy is undersized and returning from injury.

3. Destroyed at the point of attack -- Thought Raji had a chance to be Sapp like but he gets dominated too easily. Pickett and Wilson are good at holding up at the point of attack but too often can not get off blocks. Neal and Daniels are a joke against power running teams.

4. Lack of experience -- Need linemen that have experience against spread option attacks and pistol formations. Understand the angles o-linemen take in these attacks. Guru Capers does a poor job preparing the team against this stuff as per Woodson.

Last year the defensive problem was allowing more yards than anyone in the history of the NFL. Somewhat fixed

This year it is 579 (For some posters this is the equivalent of 666) Too bad -- TT shall address this with front seven players that have shown the ability to make plays against these attacks. AJ Klein, lb is touted as playing well against spread offenses.

[rbaloha1]

That's just greedy. I'd be happy with another Ryan Grant... just don't leave any yards on the field and don't fumble the ball and we've got a running game that you can build an offense around. Sounds like I'm not asking for much but Alex Green has terrible vision. Kuhn is too slow to get through a hole before it closes, and Stark is a glass doll.

Another RG is available somewhere in the late rounds.

AG can not run out of a 2 back set. Benson could be the answer

Kuhn is okay. Zach line from SMU is a big upgrade.

Starks is unreliable and should be cut

[Fosco33]

Hard to take the Niner game and use that solely as the basis for draft philosophy.

In that game, Packers had Chuck (gone) and Walden (gone) who were consistently beat. We were also without a fair amount of personnel - Worthy, Perry, Bishop, etc. Next year's Defense will look very different either way. Yes - we need to get more DL. I still think not having a star safety is the biggest hold - Collins was sorely missed.

I think Ted will trade back in the draft and load up on picks. I'd love to see Ball in G&G if it was 3rd round or later.

Ball will not be a star - but he'll be a capable 3rd down back somewhere.

[rbaloha1]

Hard to take the Niner game and use that solely as the basis for draft philosophy.

In that game, Packers had Chuck (gone) and Walden (gone) who were consistently beat. We were also without a fair amount of personnel - Worthy, Perry, Bishop, etc. Next year's Defense will look very different either way. Yes - we need to get more DL. I still think not having a star safety is the biggest hold - Collins was sorely missed.

I think Ted will trade back in the draft and load up on picks. I'd love to see Ball in G&G if it was 3rd round or later.

Ball will not be a star - but he'll be a capable 3rd down back somewhere.

Excuse me the teams to beat are the Niners and Seahawks not the scrubs of the central.

MM obviously placed a huge importance in the niner game by forcing the entire d staff to learn how to stop option and pistol attacks. If it was a fluke MM would say something like the defense had an off day. 579 is his slogan.

Personnel and schematic wise the Packers d has big problems against option and pistol attack and thank goodness it is not downplayed.

[Fosco33]

Was I debating or agreeing with you?

Point is - we play the NFCC a guaranteed 6 games a year. You have to first win your division and then worry about the conference.

Niners had 2 weeks to prepare for an injured Pack team. And their coaches did a great job of hiding the pistol options they employed against the Pack.

Capers did adjust to the game - but CM3 was too aggressive, Raji got owned and when Walden spyed - he got juked out of his shoes.

Reason why Ravens won - their DL is superior to the Packers. But we'll get healthier and better with Jolly/Neal. We do need to replace Pickett and have an option to let Raji go. So I totally agree - we need to focus on the DL.

Ravens also have much better safeties. Which I think, as the QB of the defense, our guys just aren't communicating well enough. The best way to stop an option team - communication and execution. That's all on Capers and finding a better safeties than Jennings/McMillian/Burnett/Richardson/etc.

Safety and DL are obvious priorities.

[rbaloha1]

Was I debating or agreeing with you?

Point is - we play the NFCC a guaranteed 6 games a year. You have to first win your division and then worry about the conference.

Niners had 2 weeks to prepare for an injured Pack team. And their coaches did a great job of hiding the pistol options they employed against the Pack.

Capers did adjust to the game - but CM3 was too aggressive, Raji got owned and when Walden spyed - he got juked out of his shoes.

Reason why Ravens won - their DL is superior to the Packers. But we'll get healthier and better with Jolly/Neal. We do need to replace Pickett and have an option to let Raji go. So I totally agree - we need to focus on the DL.

Ravens also have much better safeties. Which I think, as the QB of the defense, our guys just aren't communicating well enough. The best way to stop an option team - communication and execution. That's all on Capers and finding a better safeties than Jennings/McMillian/Burnett/Richardson/etc.

Safety and DL are obvious priorities.

More excuses than answers.

Guru Capers is overrated and should have been fired after this debacle.

[pbmax]

Ravens also went to school on what not to do. They did not wait for CK to choose dive-keep. They sent Suggs and Kruger directly at him in most cases to PREVENT CK from getting outside on a keep. Colin is fast enough that even a well defended keep could break for big yardage. EDIT: Somewhere in this sentence it should have stated that the Ravens forced the give/dive by running the unblocked defender right at CK immediately, no delay to read the offense at all from first site of option.

Packers did the reverse. They tried to honor the dive and Gore and left outside contain on an island versus Kapernick's speed. Ravens did not give Colin that choice and it shut them down in the first half. 49ers adjusted and ramped it back up in the second half.

[3irty1]

There are numerous issues with current d-line:

1. Age -- Pickett imo is the best d-linemen but may have only 1-2 seasons left.

2. Uncertainity -- Love Jolly but it is unsure of how much JJ can contribute. Raji could be gone after this season. Worthy is undersized and returning from injury.

3. Destroyed at the point of attack -- Thought Raji had a chance to be Sapp like but he gets dominated too easily. Pickett and Wilson are good at holding up at the point of attack but too often can not get off blocks. Neal and Daniels are a joke against power running teams.

4. Lack of experience -- Need linemen that have experience against spread option attacks and pistol formations. Understand the angles o-linemen take in these attacks. Guru Capers does a poor job preparing the team against this stuff as per Woodson.

Last year the defensive problem was allowing more yards than anyone in the history of the NFL. Somewhat fixed

This year it is 579 (For some posters this is the equivalent of 666) Too bad -- TT shall address this with front seven players that have shown the ability to make plays against these attacks. AJ Klein, lb is touted as playing well against spread offenses.

1. Pickett's game will continue to age but should age well. He hasn't been a liability yet and isn't likely to do so this season so for 2013 Picket is the least of our concerns. If you address the DL in any way the Picket of the future problem is probably solved at the same time. Consider this point debunked.

2. Raji is unlikely to leave after the season and isn't going to command much more money than he already makes as a top 10 pick before the new CBA. Furthermore he's not even in his prime yet. Consider that part debunked. Worthy is 310 lbs, that's anything but undersized for a DE in our scheme. Most 3-4 DL play under 300 including both starters for the 49ers that everyone has such a throbbing blue-veined boner for. Absolutely debunked. JJ is clearly full of uncertainty so I agree, at least 1 DL is needed for camp for a fair fight with Jolly seeing as how Worthy is unlikely to play much in 2013.

3. I'll have to put the burden of proof for this claim on you. No single play or game is appropriate evidence of this. The games in which the Packers defense faired poorly vs the run, the DL were not the weakest link. It had a lot to do with the OLB positions losing contain (Peterson, Peterson, Kapernick) and even more to do with ridiculously poor tackling in the secondary (Peterson, Peterson, Peterson). Am I the only one that remembers Tramon Williams running away from tackles last year? He gave Peterson an MVP award by himself. Why are we even talking about the DL? Neal and Daniels are interior pass rushers and are barely on the field in running situations other than goal line fronts.

4. AJ Klein doesn't have anything to teach nfl professionals about the spread offense, especially when those pros face the best spread offense in the world in practice. As far as the option and pistol, if we need anything its coaches that are more well versed, not players. The success that offense had last year throughout the NFL transcended player inexperience, watching the games its clear the assignments were not in place for defenses to stop it. Time, preparation, new terminology, and game planning are needed.

The answer to stopping what happened against the 49ers is two-fold IMO. First and most obviously schematic preparation must be done for the read option which every team is likely doing this offseason. This is largely a matter of practicing and game planning rather than personnel. The other answer is the same as it was in 2011, 3rd down. The Packers were pounded by the 49ers because they didn't stop them on 3rd down which is 90% of being a good NFL defense. We addressed it the 2012 offseason with big additions in Perry and Worthy but neither made it through the season. We still had enough improvements on 3rd down last year to become the 11th ranked scoring defense. Daniels and Neal were productive as pass rushers on 3rd down, Hayward, Shields, and Brad Jones improved the coverage a great deal. Getting Production out of the LOLB spot can push us well into the top 10 in scoring defense.

I'm admittedly more optimistic about Jolly than most but even without him I don't see a need for more than a midround pick on the DL for depth and competition. If it just so turns out that the BPA in the high rounds is DL then great, but I don't see it as an overwhelming need. I'd rather injury proof the OLB position with a high pick or grab an NFL ready safety or starting caliber running back.

[ThunderDan]

The answer to stopping what happened against the 49ers is two-fold IMO. First and most obviously schematic preparation must be done for the read option which every team is likely doing this offseason.

Good post, the reason the pistol worked so well is the NFL hadn't seen it. In two weeks the BALT D was able to scrape together a good enough plan to win the Super Bowl with.

The pistol might be around for 2 or 3 years and then some new wrinkle will be added. I see the pistol as the new "wildcat".

[rbaloha1]

1. Pickett's game will continue to age but should age well. He hasn't been a liability yet and isn't likely to do so this season so for 2013 Picket is the least of our concerns. If you address the DL in any way the Picket of the future problem is probably solved at the same time. Consider this point debunked.

Nothing is debunked until actual play starts -- consider your point debunked

2. Raji is unlikely to leave after the season and isn't going to command much more money than he already makes as a top 10 pick before the new CBA. Furthermore he's not even in his prime yet. Consider that part debunked. Worthy is 310 lbs, that's anything but undersized for a DE in our scheme. Most 3-4 DL play under 300 including both starters for the 49ers that everyone has such a throbbing blue-veined boner for. Absolutely debunked. JJ is clearly full of uncertainty so I agree, at least 1 DL is needed for camp for a fair fight with Jolly seeing as how Worthy is unlikely to play much in 2013.

There may not be enough money to sign a fat underachiever. Consider your rhetoric debunked. Nose tackles are supposed to be able to handle double teams like a ngata. Consider your points debunked.

3. I'll have to put the burden of proof for this claim on you. No single play or game is appropriate evidence of this. The games in which the Packers defense faired poorly vs the run, the DL were not the weakest link. It had a lot to do with the OLB positions losing contain (Peterson, Peterson, Kapernick) and even more to do with ridiculously poor tackling in the secondary (Peterson, Peterson, Peterson). Am I the only one that remembers Tramon Williams running away from tackles last year? He gave Peterson an MVP award by himself. Why are we even talking about the DL? Neal and Daniels are interior pass rushers and are barely on the field in running situations other than goal line fronts.

4. AJ Klein doesn't have anything to teach nfl professionals about the spread offense, especially when those pros face the best spread offense in the world in practice. As far as the option and pistol, if we need anything its coaches that are more well versed, not players. The success that offense had last year throughout the NFL transcended player inexperience, watching the games its clear the assignments were not in place for defenses to stop it. Time, preparation, new terminology, and game planning are needed.

The answer to stopping what happened against the 49ers is two-fold IMO. First and most obviously schematic preparation must be done for the read option which every team is likely doing this offseason. This is largely a matter of practicing and game planning rather than personnel. The other answer is the same as it was in 2011, 3rd down. The Packers were pounded by the 49ers because they didn't stop them on 3rd down which is 90% of being a good NFL defense. We addressed it the 2012 offseason with big additions in Perry and Worthy but neither made it through the season. We still had enough improvements on 3rd down last year to become the 11th ranked scoring defense. Daniels and Neal were productive as pass rushers on 3rd down, Hayward, Shields, and Brad Jones improved the coverage a great deal. Getting Production out of the LOLB spot can push us well into the top 10 in scoring defense.

I'm admittedly more optimistic about Jolly than most but even without him I don't see a need for more than a midround pick on the DL for depth and competition. If it just so turns out that the BPA in the high rounds is DL then great, but I don't see it as an overwhelming need. I'd rather injury proof the OLB position with a high pick or grab an NFL ready safety or starting caliber running back.

Consider your rhetoric debunked.

[rbaloha1]

Good post, the reason the pistol worked so well is the NFL hadn't seen it. In two weeks the BALT D was able to scrape together a good enough plan to win the Super Bowl with.

The pistol might be around for 2 or 3 years and then some new wrinkle will be added. I see the pistol as the new "wildcat".

This stuff is more complex that simpleton posters.

[3irty1]

Consider your rhetoric debunked.

Very persuasive argument there. If you're not interested in evidence, either providing it or listening to it I fail to see what you get out of this forum. I understand that a trolls gotta eat but you'll probably last on this forum longer if you sprinkle in some real discussion and maintain a shred of credibility.

[rbaloha1]

Very persuasive argument there. If you're not interested in evidence, either providing it or listening to it I fail to see what you get out of this forum. I understand that a trolls gotta eat but you'll probably last on this forum longer if you sprinkle in some real discussion and maintain a shred of credibility.

Please your rhetoric is disguised as trolling nonsense.

Your trolling behavior is one of denial and apologist. Your self pro-claimed genius is laughable at best.

[rbaloha1]

Very persuasive argument there. If you're not interested in evidence, either providing it or listening to it I fail to see what you get out of this forum. I understand that a trolls gotta eat but you'll probably last on this forum longer if you sprinkle in some real discussion and maintain a shred of credibility.

what evidence do you provide except denial to 579.

579

[pbmax]

531

Number of yards given up by the Packers defense in the last game of the previous season prior to winning the last Super Bowl.

Which means of course, it is meaningless for 2013.

[rbaloha1]

531


Number of yards given up by the Packers defense in the last game of the previous season prior to winning the last Super Bowl.

Which means of course, it is meaningless for 2013.

Typical reach.

Why don't you e-mail McCarthy?

Do you guys have sex with Capers?

[3irty1]

531

Number of yards given up by the Packers defense in the last game of the previous season prior to winning the last Super Bowl.

Which means of course, it is meaningless for 2013.

pbmax, you're as thoughtful and credible of a poster as exists on this site so I urge you not to waste another keystroke on this thread. Engaging this guy as it'll only detract from your experience. Let the troll starve.

[rbaloha1]

pbmax, you're as thoughtful and credible of a poster as exists on this site so I urge you not to waste another keystroke on this thread. Engaging this guy as it'll only detract from your experience. Let the troll starve.

Go back to your orgy, mr. troll.

[swede]

Cht!
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/120224062643-cesar-millan-story-body.jpg

[pbmax]

pbmax, you're as thoughtful and credible of a poster as exists on this site so I urge you not to waste another keystroke on this thread. Engaging this guy as it'll only detract from your experience. Let the troll starve.

My feeling on it is this: sometimes mindless trolling forces you to really think through a position and come up with a framework that supports your position. So, to a point (say the wist point) I don't mind posting against a brick wall of fixed opinion. Kind of like practicing tennis against a garage door.

Plus I just wanted to steal, no that's not it, re-emphasize that point about the Cardinals playoff game in 2010. I couldn't find the post to link to it so I just re-posted it.

Someone else should get the credit though.

[Joemailman]

My feeling on it is this: sometimes mindless trolling forces you to really think through a position and come up with a framework that supports your position. So, to a point (say the wist point) I don't mind posting against a brick wall of fixed opinion. Kind of like practicing tennis against a garage door.

Plus I just wanted to steal, no that's not it, re-emphasize that point about the Cardinals playoff game in 2010. I couldn't find the post to link to it so I just re-posted it.

Someone else should get the credit though.

I had mentioned the 51 points given up. http://packerrats.com/showthread.php?25369-2013-Schedule&p=720001&highlight=#post720001

Glad if I was of some assistance. We Kool-aid guzzling homers need to stick together.

[Freak Out]

Ignorage is in full effect.

[Bretsky]

pbmax, you're as thoughtful and credible of a poster as exists on this site so I urge you not to waste another keystroke on this thread. Engaging this guy as it'll only detract from your experience. Let the troll starve.

I gave it a shot as well but stopped yesterday. I have to say, 3irty, I consider you one of the most knowledgeable posters on this forum. In browsing some threads I ran over your 2012 mock NFL Draft.

You really should post your 2013 Mock in here

Benard Pierce in round 4............HOW SWEET it would have been if TT would have listened to that one :)

[rbaloha1]

The Butt Wiping Brigade shows its butt again with laurel and hardy logic.

Gee Ollie...

[Zool]

The Butt Wiping Brigade shows its butt again with laurel and hardy logic.

Gee Ollie...

It took you all of 2 days. Stop being an asshole. It turns out you can have a difference of opinion without being a total prick. Well most people can. It remains to be seen if you have that capability.

[rbaloha1]

It took you all of 2 days. Stop being an asshole. It turns out you can have a difference of opinion without being a total prick. Well most people can. It remains to be seen if you have that capability.

Please do not have double standards -- others attempt bullying tactics to conform to their thinking.

[rbaloha1]

It took you all of 2 days. Stop being an asshole. It turns out you can have a difference of opinion without being a total prick. Well most people can. It remains to be seen if you have that capability.

Please also call out the other asshole posters who are about as subtle as a Kim Kardashian pregnancy.

Being an asshole has many interpretations and please publically notify them. If you need help, I shall let you know which ones act like assholes.

[Cheesehead Craig]

What? Kim Kardashian's pregnant?

[rbaloha1]

What? Kim Kardashian's pregnant?

check it out

[Zool]

Dumb and Dumber have resurfaced.

It is always you starting it. Maybe grab a mirror before you start blaming people.

[Zool]

Boy some people like to hear themselves talk.

Example.

[Zool]

Not according to mm -- only your feeble mind.

Again

[Zool]

go troll on this moron and quit acting like some sophisticated person -- you sir are a phony and a legend in your own feeble mind.

Still again, all started because someone disagrees with you. You are the instigator thus making you the troll. Enough is enough. You have a lot of good thoughts on football, but your ability to see anyone else's side of anything is what makes you act like this.

[rbaloha1]

Still again, all started because someone disagrees with you. You are the instigator thus making you the troll. Enough is enough. You have a lot of good thoughts on football, but your ability to see anyone else's side of anything is what makes you act like this.


please also look at unprompted attacks on me.

i need judge wapner not hitler.

[Zool]

please also look at unprompted attacks on me.

i need judge wapner not hitler.

What you need is to understand that you are not the be all end all of knowledge. We welcome you here if you want to be here. We don't need you here. It's up to you now.

[rbaloha1]

What you need is to understand that you are not the be all end all of knowledge. We welcome you here if you want to be here. We don't need you here. It's up to you now.

never made that claim. check out other posters for that. need some impartial analysis.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Why do people have to keep going back to Hitler. Be creative and original and pick some other crazed lunatic like Pol Pot or Stalin.

[rbaloha1]

Why do people have to keep going back to Hitler. Be creative and original and pick some other crazed lunatic like Pol Pot or Stalin.

thanks shall do. sorry to insult you if you are german.

[Cheesehead Craig]

thanks shall do. sorry to insult you if you are german.

Nah, Hitler's just too easy to fall back on. It's like "the greatest thing since sliced bread". Really? You're going with sliced bread? Not velcro or beer or the domestication of pigs? Just want people to change things up a bit from time to time.