Is Dom.....aka.....the Dominator in the SB Year a FRAUD or has TT and/or injuries let him down

[Bretsky]

A legit question here; on our run to the Super Bowl many, including me, though Dom was excellent in getting the most out of his talent. We had all these cool and unique packages where everybody would stand up at the snap and run stunts and blitzes that were not detectable accourding to the NFL Network...........

who might have hit an all time low by having Charlie Peprah and Jarrett Bush, Red's favorite player, in studio at the same time to pimp the Packers unique defensive sets.

Obviously we've been less than stellar since then, and obviously we've had some injuries....although we overcame several on our Super Bowl Run


So my question.....and I'd like max views here............Is the Dominator a Fraud...and why ?

Or are we just Devoid of enough talent to be successful on that side of the Ball ??

[Upnorth]

When he first came to the pack I looked up his history with the steelers. At the time I seem toremember someone creating a thread about capers previous history where he peaked in year two or three and it was down hill from there. Looking like a similar problem again. I am beginning to wonder if we should kick some new tires.

[rbaloha1]

Always maintained the super bowl year was a fluke. It was TT.

Teams can not continually win with free agents.

Capers is a fraud -- living off Dick Lebeau's defense which has enriched him tremendously.

[rbaloha1]

When he first came to the pack I looked up his history with the steelers. At the time I seem toremember someone creating a thread about capers previous history where he peaked in year two or three and it was down hill from there. Looking like a similar problem again. I am beginning to wonder if we should kick some new tires.

The newspapers also chronicled this phenomnea.

[Fritz]

Bretsky, could it be neither? Since no team wins the SB every year, you'd be assuming then that any team that has won it once in the past and kept the same D-coordinator for a couple years subsequent (but has not since won a SB) has a d-coordinator who either was a fraud or has been let down by his GM.

Why can't it be simply that no team wins every SB every year? You field a competetive team, get in the playoffs, and hope the mysterious forces of mojo cook up into a SB stew.

[Bretsky]

Fritz..your point assumes the defense of teams are pretty legit the two years after they win the Super Bowl as opposed to being junk like ours has been the past two years

.....our defense sucks......I think this is a valid question......it sucked a couple yrs before the SB and it sucked two years ago....and it sucked last year. I think it's reasonable to wonder why as opposed to ignoring that. I don't know the answer to my question. I'm not even sure I have a view. I've been a defender of Dom...I pimped the Dominator on our run.....I still don't buy into it being a complete fluke although I get the logic of those who view it that way.......but I'm second guessing myself about my view on Dom at this point.

When a part of your team sucks, eventually one should ask why

[Fritz]

Fritz..your point assumes the defense of teams are pretty legit the two years after they win the Super Bowl as opposed to being junk like ours has been the past two years

.....our defense sucks......I think this is a valid question......it sucked a couple yrs before the SB and it sucked two years ago....and it sucked last year. I think it's reasonable to wonder why as opposed to ignoring that. I don't know the answer to my question. I'm not even sure I have a view. I've been a defender of Dom...I pimped the Dominator on our run.....I still don't buy into it being a complete fluke although I get the logic of those who view it that way.......but I'm second guessing myself about my view on Dom at this point.

When a part of your team sucks, eventually one should ask why

I don't think they sucked all the time; they sucked at key moments. And then fell apart in SF. But you're right; they fell off a little further than most teams' defenses. I think.

I am actually not a big Dom fan, not a big 3-4 fan. I hope they win the SB this year and Dom retires.

[pbmax]

It was a 16th ranked defense last year and they don't suck almost by definition. They do have trouble now stopping the run and with penalties on 3rd down.

But I am adamant that the problem with the run D is as much adherence to scheme as it is the scheme or player talent. Could they have better DL players and ILBs plus one safety? Yes.

But when they held Peterson in check during the playoff game and the previous year in the first half against the Giants, they proved they could do it.

What troubles me is why its so sporadic.

[rbaloha1]

Numbers are meaningless.

[HarveyWallbangers]

It was a 16th ranked defense last year and they don't suck almost by definition.

Where did you get the 16th ranked defense stat from? Just wondering. They were 11th in points allowed, 11th in yards allowed, 10th in interceptions, 4th in sacks, so I'm must wondering where the 16th ranked numbers came from? They made strides last year--despite missing key pieces. If this defense stays healthy and doesn't become one of top defenses, I think it's fair to go in a different direction at DC. There's talent on the defense. Young talent--which makes it difficult at times. Talent nonetheless. There are some holes, but almost ever defense has holes that it has to hide. Dom should be able to make hay with the talent he has this year.

[Fritz]

Numbers are meaningless.

...he said when a poster used numbers to support a point.

Previously forgetting his only reply to thoughtful arguments in another thread was to post one number, over and over.

[Upnorth]

Numbers are meaningless.

Wow dude. You realize that coaches who watch more tape than. All of us together still use numbers. They wouldn't if they had no value

[RashanGary]

Injuries and personnel. I like Dom.

[pbmax]

Where did you get the 16th ranked defense stat from? Just wondering. They were 11th in points allowed, 11th in yards allowed, 10th in interceptions, 4th in sacks, so I'm must wondering where the 16th ranked numbers came from? They made strides last year--despite missing key pieces. If this defense stays healthy and doesn't become one of top defenses, I think it's fair to go in a different direction at DC. There's talent on the defense. Young talent--which makes it difficult at times. Talent nonetheless. There are some holes, but almost ever defense has holes that it has to hide. Dom should be able to make hay with the talent he has this year.

I pulled it from memory which means it was highly questionable. If they were 11th in those categories though, it just makes the underlying point stronger. The D side of the ball isn't a disaster. Has problem with the run at times and the 49ers. No reason to rebuild from scratch.

Eh. Football Outsiders had them at 8th, so I have no idea where 16 came from. Closest is 13/17 rank versus rush.

[pbmax]

...he said when a poster used numbers to support a point.

Previously forgetting his only reply to thoughtful arguments in another thread was to post one number, over and over.

:lol:

[rbaloha1]

where are the thoughtful posts?

quoting mm, "579."

[rbaloha1]

...he said when a poster used numbers to support a point.

Previously forgetting his only reply to thoughtful arguments in another thread was to post one number, over and over.

Here is a nonmeaningless number -- Packers defense ranked #31 defensing running plays outside the tackles at 7.0 yards per carry as per espn.

[Cheesehead Craig]

I am actually not a big Dom fan, not a big 3-4 fan. I hope they win the SB this year and Dom retires.

I'm pretty much in this boat. Never liked the 3-4, never will. To me the 3-4 defense is too much about trying to confuse the offense with who's dropping back and who's rushing and quite often gets too cute for it's own good. Unless you get some exceptional players in it, I don't think it works as well as a 4-3. JMO.

[rbaloha1]

Too many teams run the 3-4. It is no longer exotic with the blitz packages.

[red]

every time capers arrives at a new team they get better, then they get worse

its like a bell curve

i have no clue why it happens, but i'm pretty sure that has been the case everywhere he's been. it takes 2 or three years of improving, then they peak for 2 to 3 years, then they fall off the fucking cliff

we could be on the downside of the curve

[RashanGary]

I think the trend is even worse than that, Red. He comes in, top 5 right away for like a year or two, then they fall apart after that.

I don't know, I like him. I like both he and McCarthy. I think we have two of the best.

[red]

yeah, i think you're right JH about just how short the time frame is

maybe we should fire him for a few months, then rehire him and see if we can restart the cycle?

[wist43]

Here is a nonmeaningless number -- Packers defense ranked #31 defensing running plays outside the tackles at 7.0 yards per carry as per espn.

That's what happens when you put 2 DL on the field (on 2nd and 6), completely disregard the run, and don't hold the edge.

To TT, MM, Capers, and the Green Bay Packers as an organization - their idea of stopping the run, is to score points like crazy on offense, and force the opposition to try and keep up.

Scoring enough points that the other team abandons the run - that's not really run defense though, is it??

[rbaloha1]

That's what happens when you put 2 DL on the field (on 2nd and 6), completely disregard the run, and don't hold the edge.

To TT, MM, Capers, and the Green Bay Packers as an organization - their idea of stopping the run, is to score points like crazy on offense, and force the opposition to try and keep up.

Scoring enough points that the other team abandons the run - that's not really run defense though, is it??

That is a factor.

The bigger problem even in base defense are assignment issues -- oftentimes 2 guys are in the same gaps.

Players still mention communication breakdowns.

[wist43]

That is a factor.

The bigger problem even in base defense are assignment issues -- oftentimes 2 guys are in the same gaps.

Players still mention communication breakdowns.

The only way those things change is by dumping Capers - which I assume will happen after this next season.

As for the players, given the shoddy coaching, and bizaare non-scheme they're having to try and execute... can't blame them.

[Green Bud Packer]

every time capers arrives at a new team they get better, then they get worse


Then capers get fired so no one knows if his D's would reach heights unknown after hitting bottom. Talent over scheme anyday.

[rbaloha1]

The only way those things change is by dumping Capers - which I assume will happen after this next season.

As for the players, given the shoddy coaching, and bizaare non-scheme they're having to try and execute... can't blame them.

It does start with Capers.

TT talked about the game changing -- must be able to tackle in space.

IMO the draft supplied one gap penetrators, tough hitters and players that displayed the ability to tackle in space.

No more excuses.

Lets not forget the super bowl year, Jarrett Bush was making big plays as a defender. The football gods were certainly with us.

[Cheesehead Craig]

I think the trend is even worse than that, Red. He comes in, top 5 right away for like a year or two, then they fall apart after that.

I've got it! Let's fire him, then re-hire him and he'll turn our defense into a top 5 unit for 2 years. We win a SB, then fire and re-hire him.

It's brilliant I tell you.

[Smeefers]

He also hasn't lasted that long in a team after they took that nose dive. We don't know how he would have responded if given time to continue working his philosophy. I would like to point out that he was with the steelers for years and they had a pretty solid D during most of his tenure. With capers, you know this team will be poised to create turnovers and thats the back breaker in the NFL.

Honestly, I think dom misses a highly effective woodson. As woodson declined, so did the dominance of our defense.

[rbaloha1]

Woodson free lanced too much which caused some of the problems.

Maybe everyone will be filling their gaps properly and trusting teammates the way Capers draws it up.

[Joemailman]

I think it's mostly personnel.

Woodson declined and is now gone.
Nick Collins gone.
Tramon Williams declined due to injury.
Desmond Bishop injured.
Cullen Jenkins gone.

None of these players have been adequately replaced, either be bringing in a new player, or by having the original player get back to what he was.

There is at least some hope. Hayward had a fine rookie year and should get better. Hopefully Bishop will be back. Datone Jones could give them some of what Cullen Jenkins offered. So far they have not come close to replacing what Tramon Williams and Nick Collins offered.

[red]

Woodson free lanced too much which caused some of the problems.

Maybe everyone will be filling their gaps properly and trusting teammates the way Capers draws it up.

i don't see that it was woodsons fault, guy was held out by the training staff for almost half the season

the secondary still had massive problems figuring out who should be covering who while he was out

[rbaloha1]

i don't see that it was woodsons fault, guy was held out by the training staff for almost half the season

the secondary still had massive problems figuring out who should be covering who while he was out

I am a big time Woodson fan (own a super bowl jersey).

First, Woodson did not trust teammates in fulfilling assignments and overcompensated. Declining physical skills (woodson was in denial) resulted in some breakdowns.

Second, philoshophical differences with Capers. Upset role was not more like Polomalu which imo Capers should have allowed.

Thirdly, when you are attempting to teach young players about team defense and understanding assignments, Woodson is not the person you want around whispering this is b.s.

[pbmax]

i don't see that it was woodsons fault, guy was held out by the training staff for almost half the season

the secondary still had massive problems figuring out who should be covering who while he was out

There was still a bit of that but I actually thought the number of times I saw WTH? pass coverage out there among the DBs was down in 2012. I took that to mean Burnett was getting the right calls and guys knew how to react. No doubt pressure helped but guys were out of position less last year than any other Capers year save 2010.

[rbaloha1]

Collins masked breakdowns with superior anticipation and speed.

Collins=Rodgers

[woodbuck27]

i don't see that it was woodsons fault, guy was held out by the training staff for almost half the season

the secondary still had massive problems figuring out who should be covering who while he was out

I'm starting to rethink trying to bring Charles Woodson back for another season.

The one spot that TT glaringly ignored in this draft was our #2 or #3 priority need:

Safety (SS)

We need some real tackling ability/ hard ass toughness there. WE need some more co-ordination and focus on that. That may not ever arrive with Jerron McMillian; and in any case will take seasoning. IMO forget M.D. Jennings as a starter. He has to learn to tackle get to that toughness. I'm not sure that can be taught.

I'm looking now, 'just a little bit' .... for TT to bring Chuck Woodson back. It's the experience and leadership he will give our 'D' overall. It's the fact that TT ignored SS in this draft and that surprized me.

I'll call it.

TT will be talking to Charles Woodson. We need help at Safety.

GO PACKERS !

[rbaloha1]

Jennings offers no run support help.

[Fosco33]

I love Chuck. But he's no safety. Maybe he'd be a good assistant CB coach or team motivator.

I don't think we can blame injuries - every team has them. We just happen to have more the past few years.

I think Williams shoulder and not allowing it to heal was dumb. I think not having a quality safety has hurt.

But I don't think the defense is terrible. Recall, our offense was so fucking good that teams would just have to pass/bomb and occasionally connect. And the 'prevent' scheme comes into play.

I think we judge teams and coaches by wins. Would I like more playoff wins - sure. Giants stung us at their peak (like we did to the league year prior) and Niners were clearly the better team despite the ability to provide excuses.

I think Dom is fine. I don't think we'll be a top 5 defense this year - but I'm hoping our offense is so fucking dominant that it doesn't need to be in order to win.

[rbaloha1]

Dom needs to prove it -- the last 2 season ending debacles do not help with Dom's reputation.

What does Dom need to do to counteract modern offenses?