Packers Draft

[ThunderDan]

I have been reading a couple of the draft related pages on this forum and it seems like you either like the draft picks or hate them.

Here are what some of the online sites are saying.

http://nfl.si.com/2013/04/28/2013-nfl-draft-grades-jaguars-49ers-rams-top-the-class/?eref=sihp

Green Bay Packers
So…no one else wanted RBs Eddie Lacy or Johnathan Franklin? Well, good luck trying to stop them in Green Bay’s offense. DE Datone Jones also has a perfect look for the Packers’ front. G/T David Bakhtiari gives the Packers another option along the O-line (as does J.C. Tretter), while S Micah Hyde will be in the mix on defense. Grade: A-minus

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2013-04-27/nfl-draft-2013-grades-team-by-team-analysis-report-card-steelers-eagles

An A from The Sporting News.
Green Bay Packers: The highlight of another good Ted Thompson haul was doubling up on running backs with Alabama's Eddie Lacy and UCLA's Johnathan Franklin. After their recent injury mess at the position, the powerful fresh legs the Packers now have sets them up for a much stronger committee approach. They also nailed the first round with UCLA defensive end Datone Jones, a versatile player ready to be a productive pass rusher in their 3-4. Then they went for two offensive tackles — Colorado's David Bakhtiari and Cornell's J.C. Tretter — who will end up helping on their line somewhere

[woodbuck27]

Any bias in the post Packer fan?

Are you being entirely objective?

Didn't 'you' find any sites with a lesser grade?

Many Packer fans can. This one..... certainly can.

GO PACK GO !

[ThunderDan]

Any bias in the post Packer fan?

Are you being entirely objective?

Didn't 'you' find any sites with a lesser grade?

Many Packer fans can. This one..... certainly can.

GO PACK GO !

Please feel free to post other sources. I look at SI, Sporting News and Bleacher Report. I am asking what is out there.

[Cheesehead Craig]

The draft is a great time of year when most team's fans revel in the fact that their team got better. As we all know it takes a minimum of 3 years to determine if a team's draft was successful to see how the picks do on the field. For now though ThunderDan, I don't see a problem in being positive on the picks.

[ThunderDan]

The Green Bay Packers started the draft off with a very soft bang. That is to say, their pickup of Datone Jones didn't send shock waves through the NFL, but perhaps it should have. Jones is a perfect fit for what the Packers want to do up front.

Adding tailback Eddie Lacy was an inspired choice; plugging the draft's only do-everything back into the Packers' explosive downfield offense could be lethal. If not, fourth-round choice Johnathan Franklin could step up and gash defenses in the space opened up by the passing attack.

The Packers reloaded the offensive line in the fourth round with tackle David Bakhtiari and guard J.C. Tretter. They also bolstered the secondary with cornerback Micah Hyde. I like going WR/WR in the seventh; the team needs more bodies there right away and can groom starters long-term.

GRADE: B

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1620969-2013-nfl-draft-grades-team-by-team-report-cards-results#/articles/1620969-2013-nfl-draft-grades-team-by-team-report-cards-results/page/13

[woodbuck27]

The draft is a great time of year when most team's fans revel in the fact that their team got better. As we all know it takes a minimum of 3 years to determine if a team's draft was successful to see how the picks do on the field. For now though ThunderDan, I don't see a problem in being positive on the picks.

I so want to share in the joy some of you are sure that TT has given us.

If I did so I'd be lieing to myself.

Please don't allow what I experienced to dampen your joy. Revel in that joy but today and until I get there. Being as rational as I am. It won't be.

Frankly...I'm not over joyed with any of TT's picks at the spots he made them. I'm certainly not impressed with TT's watered down product overall in 'his draft'. His draft 'clear and simple'... shocked me.

Again ... please fill your boots on any joy that you feel. Good for you.

As a Packer fan I cannot get there.

GO PACK GO !

[ThunderDan]

Green Bay Packers: Looks like GM Ted Thompson's usual haul of potential starters, including DE Datone Jones and quality depth (OL David Bakhtiari). And don't be shocked if fourth-round RB Johnathan Franklin pushes second-rounder Eddie Lacy (but nice value at No. 61) for playing time. GRADE: A-

USA Today http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2013/04/29/2013-nfl-draft-grades/2120157/

[woodbuck27]

Please feel free to post other sources. I look at SI, Sporting News and Bleacher Report. I am asking what is out there.

Here's 'a heads up' for you.

Please feel free to use your puter and a Goggle search to do 'just that' yourself.

It's my experience that 'just that' will work best for you, ThunderDan.

PACKERS !

[ThunderDan]

Mel Kiper says: Pack one of 3 teams to get an A.

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2013/4/28/4278476/2013-nfl-draft-grades-mel-kiper-ravens-bills-packers

[ThunderDan]

The Washington Post:

GREEN BAY PACKERS: Green Bay made its first two picks count, even though they came late in the first and second rounds. Getting Datone Jones was well worth the 26th choice. And getting Eddie Lacy late in the second round could end up being a memorably good move. Grade: B+

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/football-insider/wp/2013/04/29/2013-nfl-draft-rewind-grading-the-nfc/

[ThunderDan]

Even, ClarionLedger gives the Pack an A-.

http://www.clarionledger.com/article/20130428/SPORTS02/130428036/2013-NFL-draft-grades-Chiefs-Rams-Ravens-top-class

- Green Bay Packers: Looks like GM Ted Thompson's usual haul of potential starters. Don't be shocked if fourth-round RB Johnathan Franklin pushes second-rounder Eddie Lacy for playing time. Grade: A-

[ThunderDan]

At the Acme PAcking Co: http://www.acmepackingcompany.com/2013-nfl-draft/2013/4/29/4280496/nfl-draft-grades-packers

Worst grade is from Jason with a B.

[pbmax]

I love being asked to do continued research to make someone else's contrary point.

That said I prefer when the draft reviews are fair to middlin'. Nobody knows what these guys will produce.

[ThunderDan]

I love being asked to do continued research to make someone else's contrary point.

That said I prefer when the draft reviews are fair to middlin'. Nobody knows what these guys will produce.

No doubt, no one knows for sure what is going to come of this draft for a while. It could be a complete bust think Sherman or another TT bonanza or TT dry year.

[Ballboy]

I'm trying to decided if my dislike for a player is clouding my judgement on him being drafted.

Eddie Lacy pick really dont like. Lets be honest, MM is not a running coach....he passes to pass and even the second coming of Barry Sanders wouldnt change that.....why then would a team use a 3rd on a running back? All of us have seen the lack of commitment to the run; so as a GM why would you use a pick? Lets look at the player himself....yes he had 1300 yards for a 6.0 average with ONLY 17tds....all this playing for a team that for the most part ran the ball late in games he broke 100 only 5 times. All that, and 3 out of his 5 OL were drafted this year, two in the first round!

The Franklin pick doesnt bother me, he seems to be more of the 3rd down back type which is really all MM does on every down. I've heard Lacy can catch as well, but doesnt have the jitter-bug types moves as Franklin.

The mid pick OL seem to be projects, none of them will help in the short term. I was hoping to get a DL and OL in the first two rounds to help the DL and give some compeition at the tackle position on the OL......these guys dont seem like they will provide much competition this year.

In a draft that was to be deep on S, we drafted none. You can say what you want about the "youth back there" as both MM & TT have said, but anyone who watched the games will see the hole. I have hopes for MD Jennings...but McMillian seems like Atri Bigby; like to play at the line, but sucks in coverage.

I really like the 7th round WR's we took. FINALLY, a big(both are 6'4") and fast(both ran 4.4 & 4.47) bodies. Again, they wont help this year, but a year on the PS and maybe they can fill in.

Since people want grades, I will give them a "C". The only reason it is that high is because I have learned never to doubt TT when it comes to drafting players......ie Rogers, Matthews, Nelson, Cobb.......only people wrong more often then me are weather people.

[woodbuck27]

Even, ClarionLedger gives the Pack an A-.

http://www.clarionledger.com/article/20130428/SPORTS02/130428036/2013-NFL-draft-grades-Chiefs-Rams-Ravens-top-class

- Green Bay Packers: Looks like GM Ted Thompson's usual haul of potential starters. Don't be shocked if fourth-round RB Johnathan Franklin pushes second-rounder Eddie Lacy for playing time. Grade: A-

Alot of cloned reports there ThunderDan.

Did you find the ones that ranked the likes of Minny, San Fran, Baltimore and Carolina high? I heard last night that KC (and former TT peer, John Dorsey) had a superior draft to other NFL teams? Ohh yes! There's mixed opinions but some sites have Seattle and Indy doing very well.

I'm having trouble finding any site that clearly rates TT's draft as top shelf. I believe overall he'll come in with about a 'B'. I'm looking for some glowing praise for TT's draft.

PACKERS !

[ThunderDan]

Alot of cloned reports there ThunderDan.

Did you find the ones that ranked the likes of Minny, San Fran, Baltimore and Carolina high? I heard last night that KC (and former TT peer, John Dorsey) had a superior draft to other NFL teams? Ohh yes! There's mixed opinions but some sites have Seattle and Indy doing very well.

I'm having trouble finding any site that clearly rates TT's draft as top shelf. I believe overall he'll come in with about a 'B'. I'm looking for some glowing praise for TT's draft.

PACKERS !

Yes, I did see that other teams had good drafts also.

This isn't the NFL draft thread, I titled it "Packers Draft" for a reason.

I admit I don't follow the draft that closely. I turn on ESPN every hour or two to see who the Pack picked and don't do research on players. So when I want to see how the Packers draft came out I think I will give a little more weight to draft analysis from SI or Mel Kiper than Woodbuck27 on PackerRats.

[George Cumby]

The draft is like Christmas but without getting to open the packages that morning. Saint Tedolaus has delivered 11 wrapped packages 'neath our tree. Some of the packages are very plain, some are gaudy, some are very large and offer great things, others are very small and appear to be doomed to disappoint. Over the next three years we get to unwrap these gifts at varying rates. Sometimes one gets to unwrap a plainly wrapped package immediately and realize it was oddly shaped because its an awesome bike (CMIII). Sometimes one gets to unwrap a big shiny package first thing and find out its empty (Brian Brohm). Sometimes it takes four years to unwrap that package and one finds a lump of coal ( Justin Harrell) or a diamond ring (Aaron Rodgers).

The optimism of fans is born of that same childlike wonder and anticipation of Christmas morning. If it's too optimistic for some, tough candy canes. It's FUN to dream that you just got a surfboard under the tree and not an ironing board.

We won't know for three years what the real grade will be, we might as well enjoy the process and remember that we are still unwrapping gifts from the previous three drafts...........

[woodbuck27]

I'm trying to decided if my dislike for a player is clouding my judgement on him being drafted.

Eddie Lacy pick really dont like. Lets be honest, MM is not a running coach....he passes to pass and even the second coming of Barry Sanders wouldnt change that.....why then would a team use a 3rd on a running back? All of us have seen the lack of commitment to the run; so as a GM why would you use a pick? Lets look at the player himself....yes he had 1300 yards for a 6.0 average with ONLY 17tds....all this playing for a team that for the most part ran the ball late in games he broke 100 only 5 times. All that, and 3 out of his 5 OL were drafted this year, two in the first round!

The Franklin pick doesnt bother me, he seems to be more of the 3rd down back type which is really all MM does on every down. I've heard Lacy can catch as well, but doesnt have the jitter-bug types moves as Franklin.

The mid pick OL seem to be projects, none of them will help in the short term. I was hoping to get a DL and OL in the first two rounds to help the DL and give some compeition at the tackle position on the OL......these guys dont seem like they will provide much competition this year.

In a draft that was to be deep on S, we drafted none. You can say what you want about the "youth back there" as both MM & TT have said, but anyone who watched the games will see the hole. I have hopes for MD Jennings...but McMillian seems like Atri Bigby; like to play at the line, but sucks in coverage.

I really like the 7th round WR's we took. FINALLY, a big(both are 6'4") and fast(both ran 4.4 & 4.47) bodies. Again, they wont help this year, but a year on the PS and maybe they can fill in.

Since people want grades, I will give them a "C". The only reason it is that high is because I have learned never to doubt TT when it comes to drafting players......ie Rogers, Matthews, Nelson, Cobb.......only people wrong more often then me are weather people.

Solid analysis Packer fan.

I agree with you in terms of the WR's that TT selected and size but there's so much more needed and those young men. I mean that in the most realistic sense.

RB Johnathan Franklin was a decent late 4th Rd. pick, as 'a one of'. That pick appears to cover TT's ass on the Eddie Lacy pick (Rd. 2 what...Pick #61). A selection of Eddie Lacy that might have been used elsewhere. It depends alot on philosophy and targets to match that. All the same selecting Eddie lacy has serious concerns for a 2nd rd. pick. TT has to hit big on that pick...not 'bigger' name.

The fellas with TT's 3rd (Pick #109) and 4th (pick #122) at OL. I'm guessing that he was targeting OL when he traded down from his 3rd Rd. pick #88. I was hoping he'd use that pick for alot of players on the board, BPA primary need...not trade down again.

Generally this trading down with the San Fran 49ers as his trading partner and them selecting very quality prospects bothered me. That made no sense to me.

In my view TT's whole effort seemed off. After his direction and Rd. 4 over...it got to be ...whatever... and more surprize that punctuated his draft.

GO PACK GO !

[woodbuck27]

Yes, I did see that other teams had good drafts also.

This isn't the NFL draft thread, I titled it "Packers Draft" for a reason.

I admit I don't follow the draft that closely. I turn on ESPN every hour or two to see who the Pack picked and don't do research on players. So when I want to see how the Packers draft came out I think I will give a little more weight to draft analysis from SI or Mel Kiper than Woodbuck27 on PackerRats.

That post makes it this:

Your taking it personal. So let's deal with that now.

You known where you can shove that mister. Take you silly agenda...somewhere far...far from me. I'm sick of your silly immature crap.

Your too obvious. You insult yourself.

Just one more thing. I don't have to back myself up. I put in the time. I've put in the time to care a hell of alot more about the Packers than any Mel Kiper or analyst on SI.

Time after time I've proven that I can analyze and out perform over the top a majority of these high paid network and football site analysts.

I can also gurantee this is a fact. None of those analysts likely put the effort in this draft mister (RE: Packers) as I certainly did. When you get right there (maybe? next year) you come back and post me.

Your here too often with the same silly agenda. To take me down and that's NOT going to happen. Trust that sonny.


GO PACK GO!

[ThunderDan]

That post makes it this:

Your taking it personal.

You known where you can shove that mister. Take you silly agenda...somewhere far...far from me. I'm sick of your silly immature crap.

Your too obvious. You insult yourself.

So saying I trust SI and Mel Kiper more than you is making it personal? You truly are delusional.

Just so we get this straight and you can get your (not you're) panties out of your ass.

TT or any NFL GM other than Matt Millan >>>> Sports professionals that focus on the NFL or draft like Mel Kiper >>>>>>> ThunderDan, Woodbuck27, other posters on the internet.


I am done with your crap today.

[woodbuck27]

So saying I trust SI and Mel Kiper more than you is making it personal? You truly are delusional.

Just so we get this straight and you can get your (not you're) panties out of your ass.

TT or any NFL GM other than Matt Millan >>>> Sports professionals that focus on the NFL or draft like Mel Kiper >>>>>>> ThunderDan, Woodbuck27, other posters on the internet.


I am done with your crap today.

Great ..... take your silly 'agenda' elsewhere.

Try posting with a different focus.

A contribution. You can disagree with me without 'the crap'. That's all it is with you and I mister....your bullshit.

[Guiness]

So saying I trust SI and Mel Kiper more than you is making it personal? You truly are delusional.

Just so we get this straight and you can get your (not you're) panties out of your ass.

TT or any NFL GM other than Matt Millan >>>> Sports professionals that focus on the NFL or draft like Mel Kiper >>>>>>> ThunderDan, Woodbuck27, other posters on the internet.


I am done with your crap today.

I was with you until you mentions Mel Kiper as a sports professional! He is in that he makes a living at it, but...

He reminds me of car reviewers or movie critics that work for industry sponsored publications - everything is FABULOUS! Did you see his reviews of this past draft? Everyone got As and Bs, with the exception of Buffalo - the team that went out and got the QB they wanted!

[pbmax]

Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

[Zool]

I swear to fucking hell that this is 2010 all over again and I'm stuck in some sort of Groundhogs Day movie. Don't we do this exact same dance every year with the same partners?

[hoosier]

I'm trying to decided if my dislike for a player is clouding my judgement on him being drafted.

Eddie Lacy pick really dont like. Lets be honest, MM is not a running coach....he passes to pass and even the second coming of Barry Sanders wouldnt change that.....why then would a team use a 3rd on a running back? All of us have seen the lack of commitment to the run; so as a GM why would you use a pick? Lets look at the player himself....yes he had 1300 yards for a 6.0 average with ONLY 17tds....all this playing for a team that for the most part ran the ball late in games he broke 100 only 5 times. All that, and 3 out of his 5 OL were drafted this year, two in the first round!

The Franklin pick doesnt bother me, he seems to be more of the 3rd down back type which is really all MM does on every down. I've heard Lacy can catch as well, but doesnt have the jitter-bug types moves as Franklin.

The mid pick OL seem to be projects, none of them will help in the short term. I was hoping to get a DL and OL in the first two rounds to help the DL and give some compeition at the tackle position on the OL......these guys dont seem like they will provide much competition this year.

In a draft that was to be deep on S, we drafted none. You can say what you want about the "youth back there" as both MM & TT have said, but anyone who watched the games will see the hole. I have hopes for MD Jennings...but McMillian seems like Atri Bigby; like to play at the line, but sucks in coverage.

I really like the 7th round WR's we took. FINALLY, a big(both are 6'4") and fast(both ran 4.4 & 4.47) bodies. Again, they wont help this year, but a year on the PS and maybe they can fill in.

Since people want grades, I will give them a "C". The only reason it is that high is because I have learned never to doubt TT when it comes to drafting players......ie Rogers, Matthews, Nelson, Cobb.......only people wrong more often then me are weather people.

I don't have that sense about McCarthy. I think that, everything else being equal, he would prefer balanced to pass-heavy. Here is an anecdote: I was just watching replays of last year's games against Jacksonville, Arizona and at Detroit, all three of which were very mediocre showings by the offense. In all three he started out running Green and Starks fairly often, and the results were remarkably consistent: 2 yard run to the right, 2 yard run to the left, pass (incompletion), punt. 4 yard run left, -2 yard run right, incompletion, punt. With a more productive running game, the Packers will have longer, more efficient drives and will give themselves even more chances to run the ball. Not to mention what it will do for the play action passing.

The success of this draft will depend on Jones's development as a three-down defensive lineman and on Lacy's long-term health. If you really think any of the pundits can predict those better than TT, Woodbuck, try taking a look at the grades he received in the 2009 draft, which is probably the best the Packers have done since Wolf's 1995 monster draft.

[Cheesehead Craig]

I so want to share in the joy some of you are sure that TT has given us.

If I did so I'd be lieing to myself.

Please don't allow what I experienced to dampen your joy. Revel in that joy but today and until I get there. Being as rational as I am. It won't be.

Frankly...I'm not over joyed with any of TT's picks at the spots he made them. I'm certainly not impressed with TT's watered down product overall in 'his draft'. His draft 'clear and simple'... shocked me.

Again ... please fill your boots on any joy that you feel. Good for you.

As a Packer fan I cannot get there.

GO PACK GO !

No worries. Your opinion of the draft is yours. Mine doesn't start until the players actually hit the field and they perform.

[packrulz]

It's silly to grade the draft until 4 years down the road. Tony Mandarich was supposed to be a stud and Tom Brady was a 6th round pick.

[woodbuck27]

Great ..... take your silly 'agenda' elsewhere.

Try posting with a different focus.

A contribution. You can disagree with me without 'the crap'. That's all it is with you and I mister....your bullshit.

OK ThunderDan:

I'm going to try this with you.

For some time now your imagining that your going to take me on here. I mean be honest and real in this observation. I'm more than sick of you and that. Don't deny this isn't the case. Your way too obvious.

This isn't the fricken neighbourhod where everytime we see one another it's going to be a fricken bust up. Don't imagine that your the next Scott Campbell. You can hardly hold a candle to Scott and shitstormin' crap. This isn't any place for that. Those days are history.

This is a Green Bay Packer forum. If your at all like me 'your Packer Home'. I want to enjoy that with all members here (including you). Express myself in matters Packers, as a discerning Packer fan.

I'm never going to be 'a Packer Homer'. I don't live in a perfect Green Bay Packer World. I call it as I see it. Yet never post to prove anything. I post to help discover the TRUTH.

You and I are inspite of obvious differences ...Green Bay Packer fans and members of Packerrats. We may compete in a Pro pickem'. Otherwise 'please', let go of the competition and your attitude towords me. It's worn out.

It's not going to get you 'anywhere honourable' man. To go on with your agenda Vs me.

GO PACK GO !

[LEWCWA]

I so want to share in the joy some of you are sure that TT has given us.

If I did so I'd be lieing to myself.

Please don't allow what I experienced to dampen your joy. Revel in that joy but today and until I get there. Being as rational as I am. It won't be.

Frankly...I'm not over joyed with any of TT's picks at the spots he made them. I'm certainly not impressed with TT's watered down product overall in 'his draft'. His draft 'clear and simple'... shocked me.

Again ... please fill your boots on any joy that you feel. Good for you.

As a Packer fan I cannot get there.

GO PACK GO !


Dude, you spend countless hours looking at what media says about these kids and probably watch some highlight reels on the internet and put together what you call your board. What a waste. GB and TT has had folks watching and grading these kids for a long time....They see them, talk to them and grade them. I will accept their board anyday over your watered down media driven crap. Who knew Jennings was better than Chad Jackson, Who knew Collins was a stud, who didn't want sitton until middle late draft, who woulda traded up to nab Mathews a one year starter.....You act as if you are a draft expert, when all you are is well read....I'm sure you didn't scout any of these players.......

[Joemailman]

I swear to fucking hell that this is 2010 all over again and I'm stuck in some sort of Groundhogs Day movie. Don't we do this exact same dance every year with the same partners?

It would seem. Some here live in an alternative universe where 2010 never happened. Or it was lightning in a bottle. Or everybody played out of their minds. Or something.

[woodbuck27]

It's silly to grade the draft until 4 years down the road. Tony Mandarich was supposed to be a stud and Tom Brady was a 6th round pick.

Exactly but the media has to do something to earn their pay checks.

I gurantee this:

Every Packer fan should be hoping that Ted Thompson nailed this draft. A hundred different people would do it a hundred different ways. It's OK if it's all very confusing.

Ted Thompson believes that his draft team did a fine job. He's grateful for this new blood for our team. He'll do all he can to stand by his draft. How I or other's; feel about that draft and his maneuvering. Won't change the water on the beans.

Ted Thompson did the best that 'he' could do. Those '99' other people would 'surely', do it differently.

This isn't about. Dear Lord.... Ted Thompson must be defended. Ted Thompson does what Ted Thompson wants to.

I don't have to agree with him. Because I have my personal views of the Green Bay Packers.

I've had those views for longer than the age of many that post here. Those views are certainly focused on nothing but, 'good things' Green Bay Packers.

GO PACKERS !

[Joemailman]

Exactly but the media has to do something to earn their pay checks.

I gurantee this:

Every Packer fan should be hoping that Ted Thompson nailed this draft. A hundred different people would do it a hundred different ways. It's OK if it's all very confusing.



There's nothing very confusing here. Every Packers fan is hoping Thompson nailed this draft. Most of us are willing to give the benefit of the doubt to a guy who built the team that won the Super Bowl 2 years ago. Some aren't.

[woodbuck27]

Dude, you spend countless hours looking at what media says about these kids and probably watch some highlight reels on the internet and put together what you call your board. What a waste. GB and TT has had folks watching and grading these kids for a long time....They see them, talk to them and grade them. I will accept their board anyday over your watered down media driven crap. Who knew Jennings was better than Chad Jackson, Who knew Collins was a stud, who didn't want sitton until middle late draft, who woulda traded up to nab Mathews a one year starter.....You act as if you are a draft expert, when all you are is well read....I'm sure you didn't scout any of these players.......

Your points are well taken. All I have is what's available to any concientious NFL fan.

I have something else. I watch the Packers play football. I have eyes that see and a mind that can see where my team needs an adjustment. I know where my team needs help.

I have to rely on my concerted efforts to understand what's available among some 2400 eligible draft prospects to possibly fill certain needs for the Packers. If that is neglected by a watered down product of a draft I can express certain concern. That's what this forum is about.

When I'm convinced of my position no threat of 'hellfire or arctic ice'...no ridicule or insult can change my view.

That view (s) won't make me any less of a Packer fan then anyone else.

GO PACK GO !

[wist43]

It would seem. Some here live in an alternative universe where 2010 never happened. Or it was lightning in a bottle. Or everybody played out of their minds. Or something.

The words you are looking for are 'fart in the wind'.

[woodbuck27]

There's nothing very confusing here. Every Packers fan is hoping Thompson nailed this draft. Most of us are willing to give the benefit of the doubt to a guy who built the team that won the Super Bowl 2 years ago. Some aren't.

I disagree Joemailman. I havn't seen that.

Some Packer fans 'simply' disagree with TT's approach of trading down>>>trading down>>>more trading down>>> and not trading up to strengthen a pick.

TT has the philosophy of the more picks the better. To water down the product...the draft class...is best. The best way.

Frankly that's a remarkable way to go. What do you rely on Joemailman? A few worn down vehicles or a newer car for your transportation? The draft isn't about more is better. It's about drafting for quality not quantity. Simple here is better.

A sensable approach is to have some real hope for your Rd. 1 - Rd. 3 (maybe?) Rd. 4 picks.

Tell me 'please' Joemailman.

A) How many draft picks TT's has made, since he bagan drafting for the Packers in 2005?

B) How many of the fourth thru seventh Rd. picks have made a Pro Bowl?

c) How many of the fourth thru seventh Rd. picks are currently on the Green Bay Packer roster and picked prior to 2010?

d) In the cases where TT traded up in drafts. Did he get favourable results?

e) **How often did TT trade up in this draft? He had plenty of picks (10) on Saturday to do so.

f) What in your view was his justification for ignoring that option; when that option 'at least' demonstrates a sound strategy? That sound strategy working in his previous drafts.

GO PACK GO !

[Joemailman]

A) How many draft picks TT's has made, since he bagan drafting for the Packers in 2005?

B) How many of the fourth thru seventh Rd. picks have made a Pro Bowl?

c) How many of the fourth thru seventh Rd. picks are currently on the Green Bay Packer roster and picked prior to 2010?

d) In the cases where TT traded up in drafts. Did he get favourable results?

e) **How often did TT trade up in this draft? He had plenty of picks (10) on Saturday to do so.



Look it up yourself.

[woodbuck27]

I don't have that sense about McCarthy. I think that, everything else being equal, he would prefer balanced to pass-heavy. Here is an anecdote: I was just watching replays of last year's games against Jacksonville, Arizona and at Detroit, all three of which were very mediocre showings by the offense. In all three he started out running Green and Starks fairly often, and the results were remarkably consistent: 2 yard run to the right, 2 yard run to the left, pass (incompletion), punt. 4 yard run left, -2 yard run right, incompletion, punt. With a more productive running game, the Packers will have longer, more efficient drives and will give themselves even more chances to run the ball. Not to mention what it will do for the play action passing.

The success of this draft will depend on Jones's development as a three-down defensive lineman and on Lacy's long-term health. If you really think any of the pundits can predict those better than TT, Woodbuck, try taking a look at the grades he received in the 2009 draft, which is probably the best the Packers have done since Wolf's 1995 monster draft.

2009 was a terrific draft for TT. Absolutely.

It's the strategy in that draft that TT used that worked well for him. A strategy that 'just' makes sense.

Your points on Datone Jones and Eddie Lacy are certainly valid. He picked those prospects in 'the good food section' of this draft. He passed on another 'good food section'.... Round three. He traded down two times with our real rival..The San Francisco 49ers. Allowing the 49ers to move up!?? Why? What sense did that make to you?

Frankly ... that wasn't one of Ted Thompson's best moves...two times. Two times...why one time and using his arch rival as a trading partner? Would you imagine such a move with the Vikings or Bears?

Isn't the answer ...NO!?

Then ... why trading draft picks with the team that kicked the Packers ass twice last season?

I cannot be the 'only' Packer fan that questions that strategy.

PACKERS !

[gbgary]

jason cole gave us a b and that's the lowest i've seen. i gotta rely on these grades to give me some sort of bearing since i pay zero attention to college football...that and you guy's rants/raves. my personal opinion is i'm a little surprised we went running back instead of o-line or safety...but who am i to say anything since only time will tell.

[King Friday]

Lets be honest, MM is not a running coach....he passes to pass and even the second coming of Barry Sanders wouldnt change that

Then why did Deuce McAllister average 21 carries a game for McCarthy over 3 years in New Orleans?

McCarthy is all about BALANCE in his offense. The issue is that the talent at RB given to him by Thompson over the last 2-3 years has been PATHETIC. No one in their right mind would run very often with the crap backs we were trotting out there. When Cedric Benson comes in and looks like Jim Brown compared to everyone else, you know your RBs suck balls.

[Joemailman]

Packers were 16th in the NFL last year in passing attempts per game, and 16th in rushing attempts per game. Obviously the passed the ball more effectively than they ran it, but they sought balance.

[gbgary]

one of the boys on nfl live (espn) just said lacy would be the offensive rookie of the year. now wouldn't that be special?! (the other name mention was tavon austin)

http://media1.break.com/breakstudios/2011/9/16/snl%20church%20lady.jpg

[mission]

The draft is like Christmas but without getting to open the packages that morning. Saint Tedolaus has delivered 11 wrapped packages 'neath our tree. Some of the packages are very plain, some are gaudy, some are very large and offer great things, others are very small and appear to be doomed to disappoint. Over the next three years we get to unwrap these gifts at varying rates. Sometimes one gets to unwrap a plainly wrapped package immediately and realize it was oddly shaped because its an awesome bike (CMIII). Sometimes one gets to unwrap a big shiny package first thing and find out its empty (Brian Brohm). Sometimes it takes four years to unwrap that package and one finds a lump of coal ( Justin Harrell) or a diamond ring (Aaron Rodgers).

The optimism of fans is born of that same childlike wonder and anticipation of Christmas morning. If it's too optimistic for some, tough candy canes. It's FUN to dream that you just got a surfboard under the tree and not an ironing board.

We won't know for three years what the real grade will be, we might as well enjoy the process and remember that we are still unwrapping gifts from the previous three drafts...........

Nice post, man... hopefully we don't get any Aunt Gertrude presents this year!

[woodbuck27]

I don't have that sense about McCarthy. I think that, everything else being equal, he would prefer balanced to pass-heavy. Here is an anecdote: I was just watching replays of last year's games against Jacksonville, Arizona and at Detroit, all three of which were very mediocre showings by the offense. In all three he started out running Green and Starks fairly often, and the results were remarkably consistent: 2 yard run to the right, 2 yard run to the left, pass (incompletion), punt. 4 yard run left, -2 yard run right, incompletion, punt. With a more productive running game, the Packers will have longer, more efficient drives and will give themselves even more chances to run the ball. Not to mention what it will do for the play action passing.

The success of this draft will depend on Jones's development as a three-down defensive lineman and on Lacy's long-term health. If you really think any of the pundits can predict those better than TT, Woodbuck, try taking a look at the grades he received in the 2009 draft, which is probably the best the Packers have done since Wolf's 1995 monster draft.

I wanted to come back to your post.

ThunderDan's thread is specific to the NFL media analyst's grading of the NFL teams performance. Specific to the drafting process last week. I looked again and wasn't able (yet) to rediscover a certain analyst's three point criteria for his grade. I think it was on ESPN but I'm not a subsciber there.

Here is one other grading I found of the Packers performance in this draft, and for what it's worth, as it may be judged somewhat subjective:

Green Bay Packers 2013 NFL Draft Review

http://www.13wham.com/sports/story/Green-Bay-Packers-2013-NFL-Draft-Review/SgCd8uyB_kOj-hypB6lMKw.cspx?rss=107

and this NFLN Teams grading by Mel Kiper Jr (via) Kevin Seifert. Not sure if it's the same LINK I placed on an earlier post, also by Kevin Seifert.

In any case here the author claims that Mr. Kiper gave TT and his draft team a B+ Grade or a solid grade:

Just like in people there are contradictions. Various manners of looking at anything and thus measuring.

http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/bears/post/_/id/4683460/mel-kiper-jr-2013-draft-grades-nfc-north

PACKERS !

[hoosier]

2009 was a terrific draft for TT. Absolutely.

It's the strategy in that draft that TT used that worked well for him. A strategy that 'just' makes sense.

Your points on Datone Jones and Eddie Lacy are certainly valid. He picked those prospects in 'the good food section' of this draft. He passed on another 'good food section'.... Round three. He traded down two times with our real rival..The San Francisco 49ers. Allowing the 49ers to move up!?? Why? What sense did that make to you?

Frankly ... that wasn't one of Ted Thompson's best moves...two times. Two times...why one time and using his arch rival as a trading partner? Would you imagine such a move with the Vikings or Bears?

Isn't the answer ...NO!?

Then ... why trading draft picks with the team that kicked the Packers ass twice last season?

I cannot be the 'only' Packer fan that questions that strategy.

PACKERS !

Simple. He traded down twice in the third because he had a bunch players rated approximately the same, and was confident to certain that at least one of them would still be there when the Packers picked next.

If the trade is a fair trade then by definition the other team (San Fran) is not gaining any advantage in it, and in that case I would not worry too much about giving an edge to the team that had the Packers number last year. Besides, this isn't the 70s and 80s, dynasties are a thing of the past. It's the Rams and the Panthers you need to be watching out for, not the Niners!

[woodbuck27]

Look it up yourself.

I'll take that response ... as:

I made my point.

Thanks Joe. Your wise. I take it that your aware of this saying:

**If you can't run with the Big dogs...stay on the porch.

GO PACKERS !





** I'm just burning your ass Joe. That would be a load of work to do to just prove my point. I cannot get 'the acadermic' out of me. I've always known that to learn costs .................................. time/work. It also demands 'open mindedness'.

[3irty1]

I wouldn't say McCarthy's goal is balance, I'd say he'll do whatever it takes to keep the offense effective and unpredictable. If we ran the ball better I think we'd ideally run it less. As it stands, if he wants defenses to respect the run he's got to make them do it through quantity because there is no quality. When teams know you can run it effectively, they can't leave 6 in the box on 1st and 2nd down. McCarthy's actual playcalling will be determined by how defenses play us. We'll run against favorable fronts, and pass against favorable formations. When the defense respects both the run and the pass then we'll have true balance but Lacy and team would have to be a hell of a player to run as well as Rodgers passes!

[Guiness]

jason cole gave us a b and that's the lowest i've seen. i gotta rely on these grades to give me some sort of bearing since i pay zero attention to college football...that and you guy's rants/raves. my personal opinion is i'm a little surprised we went running back instead of o-line or safety...but who am i to say anything since only time will tell.

Or you could just rely on the fact that TT probably knows what he's doing :)

I don't know if our OL is bad, of if the pressures and sacks come from teams not having to worry about the running game, so their DL and able to assume the OL is going to pass block every down. Then all they have to worry about it getting to the QB, not holding the edge or gap control. These RBs should show us that. TT tried to get some help last year, but the position was snake bitten. Four RBs ended up on the IR, ,not counting Starks who stayed of it, but wasn't exactly available. The Pack was down to calling Grant who was sitting on his couch, and Harris up from the PS.

[woodbuck27]

Simple. He traded down twice in the third because he had a bunch players rated approximately the same, and was confident to certain that at least one of them would still be there when the Packers picked next.

If the trade is a fair trade then by definition the other team (San Fran) is not gaining any advantage in it, and in that case I would not worry too much about giving an edge to the team that had the Packers number last year. Besides, this isn't the 70s and 80s, dynasties are a thing of the past. It's the Rams and the Panthers you need to be watching out for, not the Niners!

I don't care about 49ers and the word dynasty. I care about giving the enemy any advantage. I make no mistake about this fact that the San Fran 49ers are the team to beat in the NFC this season. That that Franchise will be the 'Paper Champions' of the NFC this season. I'd bet a lot of money on that being the case.

Some 'so called' experts might get dramatic and salute the Seattle Seahawks. Common sense says it's the San Fran 49ers. I don't like that. I don't want to see TT encourage that. Their first four pic's were solid. TT helped them get there. Their second pick at our former Rd. 2 Pick 55 was TE Vance McDonald. An analyst on NFL Access was raving about that pick today. Calling that the most brilliant move in the draft. I don't get that as Vance McDonald was near the bottom of the Top 80. Why the panic when the 49ers had the 61st pick?

Really it's all 'very interesting'. :-?

The RAMS were doing very well after Friday but I didn't see how that team finished overall. There's a bunch to study right now if your more than 'just' a Packer fan. The PANTHERS did very well in the reports I'm seeing on them.

GO PACK GO !

[George Cumby]

Nice post, man... hopefully we don't get any Aunt Gertrude presents this year!

Thanks, Mish.

Aunt Gertrude is the one that gives us the pink footy pajamas with the bunny ears?

[woodbuck27]

No worries. Your opinion of the draft is yours. Mine doesn't start until the players actually hit the field and they perform.

That's very cool.

[Guiness]

I'll take that response ... as:

I made my point.

Thanks Joe. Your wise. I take it that your aware of this saying:

If you can't run with the Big dogs...stay on the porch.

GO PACKERS !

Actually Woody, I think you made his point for him.

There are quite a number of pre-2010 fourth round and later picks on the team. Off the top of my head, both our starting guards, Newhouse and EDS! Crosby and Mathsay, as well as Goode, the LS. Bishop and Brad Jones. Bush and Tramon. Let's see, Jolly if he comes back, Starks, Kuhn, CJ Wilson. Not sure if Wynn is still on the roster.

[woodbuck27]

Here's the criteria that Mel Kiper Jr. uses to grade any NFL teams Draft:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft2013/story/_/id/9200335/2013-nfl-draft-mel-kiper-gives-grades-every-nfl-team-draft

" Everybody knows you can't grade an NFL draft on performance the day it ends. You can't do it for years, which is part of the reason why I audit old drafts. What I do here is assess three main things:

• How much overall talent did a team add based on board position?
• How effectively did they address key personnel needs?
• How efficient were they in maneuvering on the draft board?

And I use my player grades as the prism. I'm well aware all NFL teams see players differently -- I might have a third-round grade on a safety many teams see as a late-round pick. That's the reality of player evaluations." Mel Kiper Jr.

Please... Click on the LINK to continue reading.

GO PACK GO !

[woodbuck27]

Actually Woody, I think you made his point for him.

There are quite a number of pre-2010 fourth round and later picks on the team. Off the top of my head, both our starting guards, Newhouse and EDS! Crosby and Mathsay, as well as Goode, the LS. Bishop and Brad Jones. Bush and Tramon. Let's see, Jolly if he comes back, Starks, Kuhn, CJ Wilson. Not sure if Wynn is still on the roster.


There were several ?'s there Guiness. I don't try to present ?'s to loose a point.

I didn't make his point. Unless the focus of evaluation is different for him than me?

I'll check to make sure:

Mason Crosby; Desmond Bishop; Brad Jones; TJ Lang; Josh Sitton and Johnny Jolly. I count six. ** I re-checked this list

My count stands at six.

That's 11.32 % of the Packer roster that was drafted Pre 2010 and pre third round by Ted Thompson.

In total Ted Thompson has made 33 Rd. 4 or later draft picks since he became Packer GM.

What percentage of those 33 TT picks are on the current roster?:

That would be 18.18%.

At that rate do we really have much hope for any of these Rd. 4 or later picks and a Packer roster spot in 2016?

I believe the answer is ...NO. I believe that TT has made a far wiser decision using his 3rd Rd. pick than watering his draft down by trading down with that 3 Rd. pick.

GO PACKERS !

[Carolina_Packer]

I don't have that sense about McCarthy. I think that, everything else being equal, he would prefer balanced to pass-heavy. Here is an anecdote: I was just watching replays of last year's games against Jacksonville, Arizona and at Detroit, all three of which were very mediocre showings by the offense. In all three he started out running Green and Starks fairly often, and the results were remarkably consistent: 2 yard run to the right, 2 yard run to the left, pass (incompletion), punt. 4 yard run left, -2 yard run right, incompletion, punt. With a more productive running game, the Packers will have longer, more efficient drives and will give themselves even more chances to run the ball. Not to mention what it will do for the play action passing.

The success of this draft will depend on Jones's development as a three-down defensive lineman and on Lacy's long-term health. If you really think any of the pundits can predict those better than TT, Woodbuck, try taking a look at the grades he received in the 2009 draft, which is probably the best the Packers have done since Wolf's 1995 monster draft.

I think these are good points. Yes, some might argue that it's not Green Bay's identity to run the ball, but like you've said, their results were very inconsistent. It looks like they are trying to create more consistency. What can that bring to the table?

1) Possibly more sustained drives, better time of possession, and more rest for the defense. That's the goal anyway.

2) A more balanced attack means less predictability. If we don't always have to have A-Rod bail out the offense, I think that's going to make him that much harder to defend. I think this will lessen the sacks (minus the ones Rodgers gets for holding the ball too long).

3) More favorable down and distances. If they can improve from 2 yards per carry to 4-5 that can make play calling less predictable.

4) Short-yardage running will hopefully be better and extend drives. Good for the defense.

4) With more success in the run game, the offense may now be able to go more vertical. If the run game has more success, and the defense is forced to respect it, then they will have to commit more defenders at the LOS, especially if we get more favorable down/distances because of having a good run game. If they commit more defenders to stopping the run, A-Rod can read the defense, and try and create a mismatch, possibly go over the top.

Obviously nothing but good health all around, but if these two backs get some momentum, the offense can find a new level that they haven't had previously.

They picked two quality running backs, that should tell you all you need to know about what they are trying to do. As Bill Polian, former Colts GM, said when the Lacy pick was made, "The pick really helps Aaron Rodgers a lot" If we don't have to rely on A-Rod to bail us out all the time, he can get sacked less, and take less hits. That's not a shiny new left tackle, but it helps.

[Guiness]

There were several ?'s there Guiness. I don't try to present ?'s to loose a point.

I didn't make his point. Unless the focus of evaluation is different for him than me?

I'll check to make sure:

Mason Crosby; Desmond Bishop; Brad Jones; TJ Lang; Josh Sitton and Johnny Jolly. I count six.

That's 11.32 % of the Packer roster that was drafted Pre 2010 and pre third round by Ted Thompson.

In total Ted Thompson has made 33 Rd. 4 or later draft picks since he became Packer GM.

What percentage of those 33 TT picks are on the current roster?:

That would be 18.18%.

At that rate do we really have much hope for any of these Rd. 4 or later picks and a Packer roster spot in 2016?

I believe the answer is ...NO. I believe that TT has made a far wiser decision using his 3rd Rd. pick than watering his draft down by trading down with that 3 Rd. pick.

GO PACKERS !

What do you mean by '?'s You count six whats?
You can't discount guys who were on the 53 last year, and still on the roster now, no matter how much you like or dislike them. Especially the guy who started 16 games at LT for us!
They all were, with the exception of Jolly. I probably missed some, these are just guys I'm sure of.

[Carolina_Packer]

Packers were 16th in the NFL last year in passing attempts per game, and 16th in rushing attempts per game. Obviously the passed the ball more effectively than they ran it, but they sought balance.

Imagine having that balance with a decent run game!

[Iron Mike]

If you can't run with the big dogs...stay on the porch.

•Of the 53 players on Green Bay’s Super Bowl XLV championship roster, 49 of them had been acquired by Thompson since 2005.
•Green Bay’s seven Pro Bowl selections in 2011 were the most the Packers had voted into the game since 1967, with six of those players either drafted or signed by Thompson.
•Named NFL Executive of the Year in 2008 and 2011 by Sporting News in a vote of his peers.
•Combining the drafts he has run in Seattle and Green Bay, 20 of Thompson’s selections have earned Pro Bowl, All-Pro or All-Rookie honors.
•Nine starters on Seattle’s Super Bowl XL team, including league MVP RB Shaun Alexander and K Josh Brown, were drafted by the Seahawks during Thompson’s tenure.


Yep. Great idea....questioning the ability of the Polar Bear.

[RashanGary]

The draft is like Christmas but without getting to open the packages that morning. Saint Tedolaus has delivered 11 wrapped packages 'neath our tree. Some of the packages are very plain, some are gaudy, some are very large and offer great things, others are very small and appear to be doomed to disappoint. Over the next three years we get to unwrap these gifts at varying rates. Sometimes one gets to unwrap a plainly wrapped package immediately and realize it was oddly shaped because its an awesome bike (CMIII). Sometimes one gets to unwrap a big shiny package first thing and find out its empty (Brian Brohm). Sometimes it takes four years to unwrap that package and one finds a lump of coal ( Justin Harrell) or a diamond ring (Aaron Rodgers).

The optimism of fans is born of that same childlike wonder and anticipation of Christmas morning. If it's too optimistic for some, tough candy canes. It's FUN to dream that you just got a surfboard under the tree and not an ironing board.

We won't know for three years what the real grade will be, we might as well enjoy the process and remember that we are still unwrapping gifts from the previous three drafts...........

Great post, man.

[woodbuck27]

•Of the 53 players on Green Bay’s Super Bowl XLV championship roster, 49 of them had been acquired by Thompson since 2005.
•Green Bay’s seven Pro Bowl selections in 2011 were the most the Packers had voted into the game since 1967, with six of those players either drafted or signed by Thompson.
•Named NFL Executive of the Year in 2008 and 2011 by Sporting News in a vote of his peers.
•Combining the drafts he has run in Seattle and Green Bay, 20 of Thompson’s selections have earned Pro Bowl, All-Pro or All-Rookie honors.
•Nine starters on Seattle’s Super Bowl XL team, including league MVP RB Shaun Alexander and K Josh Brown, were drafted by the Seahawks during Thompson’s tenure.


Yep. Great idea....questioning the ability of the Polar Bear.

I am not doing any more than questioning his draft strategy in this draft.

I'm doing so as I saw a better way.

End of story.

[RashanGary]

Lacy is in one of the best positions to win O-ROY. There aren't many QB's looking to be in it this year. He could easily be our #1 RB, and rush for over 1,200 yards and a bunch of TD's. Let's not forget, there was a time when Ryan Grant was getting 4.4YPC and 1,200 yards per season. Lacy could have a very big year.

[woodbuck27]

What do you mean by '?'s You count six whats?
You can't discount guys who were on the 53 last year, and still on the roster now, no matter how much you like or dislike them. Especially the guy who started 16 games at LT for us!
They all were, with the exception of Jolly. I probably missed some, these are just guys I'm sure of.

"pre-2010 fourth round and later picks" Guiness

I don't dislike any Packer players Guiness.

Marshall Newhouse was drafted in 2010 Rd. 5 (169) before James Starks, Rd. 6 and CJ Wilson, Rd. 7.

I'm looking at Packers drafted 2009 and back to 2005 and Rd. 4-7 selections. I thought that was clear fr. above Guiness, or your understanding.

Johnny Jolly would be on the list as he was drafted by TT in 2006 Rd. 6 (183). He is one of the six I counted:

Mason Crosby; Desmond Bishop; Brad Jones; TJ Lang; Josh Sitton and Johnny Jolly.

[pbmax]

Why would you not do a trade with a division or conference rival? If its a good idea to move, its a good idea to move regardless of whom the second party is. Except under extraordinary circumstances (early first round when one team wants to be sure its player is there before trading up) you do not know what they will do, so you cannot make an objective judgement whether they will help themselves or not.

But you can make an objective evaluation about whether you need to trade up or down.

The idea that Thompson is aiding the 49ers presupposes one of two things: the trade is bad for the Packers (weakening a 49er rival) or better for the 49ers (strengthening a Packer conference rival).

Its not at all like a FA or RFA situation where a specific player may or may not benefit a rival.

[wist43]

What do you mean by '?'s You count six whats?
You can't discount guys who were on the 53 last year, and still on the roster now, no matter how much you like or dislike them. Especially the guy who started 16 games at LT for us!
They all were, with the exception of Jolly. I probably missed some, these are just guys I'm sure of.

Guiness, I think there have been several debates raging on this topic in other threads - I would argue your list is far too generous - and even off of Woodbuck's list I'd drop Mason Crosby b/c he's a kicker.

It all depends on what your criteria is. If your criteria is that a guy simply make the roster - of course you're going to think TT's mining for bums pays off. He's drafted more players (48) in those rounds than any other team in the NFL.

The Green Bay Packers are the most draftcentric team in the NFL - hands down. The only other means of player procurement, except on rare occassion, is Street FA's. Whom you cannot include in your assessment of TT's late round picks.

That means Tyrone Williams, Shields, EDS, et al... all other Street FA's. You would have signed these guys anyway.

My criteria is that a guy be a legit NFL starter - if you're going to build your team with late round picks and street FA's, don't many of those guys need to be legitimate NFL starters - and necessarily better, i.e. Sitton.

The list is very short - Sitton, Lang, Bishop, Jolly (I include Jolly b/c I love the guy, and he absolutley was a legit NFL starter; but of course he might never play again, we'll see).

That's it... that's the list of TT's bum mining successes in rds 4-7.

You have to take Daniels, McMillian, and House off the list b/c we don't know what those guys are. I think House looks like a hit, but we simply don't know - so they're not considered yet.

I don't include CJ Wilson, Marshall Newhouse, Jurius Wynn, Starks, DJ Smith... they may have started, or are starting - but none of those guys has any business starting in the NFL. If you have them for backups, you're looking to replace them and upgrade. So even though they're playing, I don't consider them legit starters - they are weak links in our lineup that need to be replaced.

We now have 8 years of drafts to look at - it's an ugly, ugly list.

48 guys minus Crosby and the 3 young guys gives you 44 picks to assess. Of those 44, only 4 became legit starters. That comes out to 9.09% hit rate.

[wist43]

We all just spent weeks in pre-draft debates talking about how badly we needed to replace Newhouse, EDS, and CJ Wilson.

You cannot include players like that as hits for TT b/c they are not legitimate staters - the second they're in your lineup, you have a weak link, and you're looking to replace them... maybe they're backups, but if you're sole means of player procurement is the draft and street FA's - you need to be hitting on more than 9%

TT's hits - legitmate, NFL starter hits - are Sitton, Lang, Bishop, and Jolly - and that's it. Everyone else needed, or needs to be moved off the roster b/c they are not legitimate starter material.

As I said in the longwinded post, we can't consider Daniels, McMillian and House yet, b/c we don't know if they'll make it or not. I suspect House is a hit.

[SnakeLH2006]

TT drafts well. Snake can't complain. He's drinking....just got laid...gets laid tomorrow morn. TT gets a dude. He pans out. Packers win games. Snake gets laid with more hot girls. Packers play games. TT drafts and picks up street FA's. Snake keeps getting laid. Packers win games. People argue. Snake gets laid and makes girls happy. TT drafts well...Packer fans are happy. Packer fans argue when they win. Snake keeps getting laid. TT keeps drafting good players. Packers win and lose. Life goes on. Everyone wins. Fans are happy. Girls are happy. Snake is happy. Wist just keeps getting pissed and more cynical. Snake is a happy man...and happy Packer fan. TT is awesome. LMFAO.

[Pugger]

I don't have that sense about McCarthy. I think that, everything else being equal, he would prefer balanced to pass-heavy. Here is an anecdote: I was just watching replays of last year's games against Jacksonville, Arizona and at Detroit, all three of which were very mediocre showings by the offense. In all three he started out running Green and Starks fairly often, and the results were remarkably consistent: 2 yard run to the right, 2 yard run to the left, pass (incompletion), punt. 4 yard run left, -2 yard run right, incompletion, punt. With a more productive running game, the Packers will have longer, more efficient drives and will give themselves even more chances to run the ball. Not to mention what it will do for the play action passing.

The success of this draft will depend on Jones's development as a three-down defensive lineman and on Lacy's long-term health. If you really think any of the pundits can predict those better than TT, Woodbuck, try taking a look at the grades he received in the 2009 draft, which is probably the best the Packers have done since Wolf's 1995 monster draft.

Often last year we didn't run the ball because the results stunk. Once Benson learned the offense and ran with authority - but not a lot of speed unfortunateley - MM was giving him the rock until he broke his foot. When Harris came on the scene and produced he got his chances too. I will say I was pissed at MM for abandoning the run game against SF in that awful playoff game. I'd wager MM was all in with TT when it came to drafting these 2 backs in this draft.

[Pugger]

Then why did Deuce McAllister average 21 carries a game for McCarthy over 3 years in New Orleans?

McCarthy is all about BALANCE in his offense. The issue is that the talent at RB given to him by Thompson over the last 2-3 years has been PATHETIC. No one in their right mind would run very often with the crap backs we were trotting out there. When Cedric Benson comes in and looks like Jim Brown compared to everyone else, you know your RBs suck balls.

This big time.

[Pugger]

Actually Woody, I think you made his point for him.

There are quite a number of pre-2010 fourth round and later picks on the team. Off the top of my head, both our starting guards, Newhouse and EDS! Crosby and Mathsay, as well as Goode, the LS. Bishop and Brad Jones. Bush and Tramon. Let's see, Jolly if he comes back, Starks, Kuhn, CJ Wilson. Not sure if Wynn is still on the roster.

TT does have a knack for finding good players in later rounds that other GMs pass on. He also finds gems in UDFAs so I wasn't all that worried about having Ted picking several players on Saturday.

[pbmax]

48 guys minus Crosby and the 3 young guys gives you 44 picks to assess. Of those 44, only 4 became legit starters. That comes out to 9.09% hit rate.

Its a wonder they win any games at all with only 4 legit starters. Stunning really. McCarthy must be the League's best coach working with a handicap like that.

[denverYooper]

Its a wonder they win any games at all with only 4 legit starters. Stunning really. McCarthy must be the League's best coach working with a handicap like that.

Why else do you think Rodgers and CM3 became the highest paid at position?

[denverYooper]

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l34/chayce99/randy-quaid-major-league.jpg

[3irty1]

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l34/chayce99/randy-quaid-major-league.jpg

Haha I was thinking about this exact scene last week.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Its a wonder they win any games at all with only 4 legit starters. Stunning really. McCarthy must be the League's best coach working with a handicap like that.

And Capers must be a genius of a DC with what he's been given to work with. Guess wist acknowledges how good the coaching staff is after all. ;)

[Ballboy]

Then why did Deuce McAllister average 21 carries a game for McCarthy over 3 years in New Orleans?

McCarthy is all about BALANCE in his offense. The issue is that the talent at RB given to him by Thompson over the last 2-3 years has been PATHETIC. No one in their right mind would run very often with the crap backs we were trotting out there. When Cedric Benson comes in and looks like Jim Brown compared to everyone else, you know your RBs suck balls.


I am not sure what MM did 10 years ago has to do with the past years with GB.....but I would venture to guess whomever the QB was(I dont think Drew got there till 2005ish) he wasnt even close to a legit QB.....I would run the ball 21 times per game as well.

The fact is drafting an OL wouldve helped on two fronts, one pass protection and two hopefully a better run blocker.

[run pMc]

I think TT's draft record is pretty good, and using a starters from rounds 4-7 is a little squishy. Most people expect R1-3 picks to be starters...you might get a few starters from your late picks, but if your starting lineup is full of late round picks and UDFA's, you probably have a serious talent problem. Maybe we move the criteria: How many starts out of late picks makes you a success?
TT got also starts from guys who aren't on the team anymore like Whitticker, Moll, Colledge, Matt Flynn, Korey Hall, Deshawn Wynn. On defense he got starts from guys like D.J.Smith, Jarius Wynn and a few others I know I'm forgetting. Desmond Bishop, who hopefully stays with the team, was a later round pick.

Expecting your R6 pick (for example) to become a Pro Bowler is asking a lot IMO. Think of all the other players drafted ahead of them in that year alone, never mind all the veterans on rosters. I'd be happy if one of the R7 WRs pans out as a ok #3 or good #4 WR, but I don't expect either to replace Calvin Johnson in the Pro Bowl in the next 3 years. Hitting on a late round player like Marques Colston or (especially) a Tom Brady is an extreme rarity.

Flip it around and think of who TT has drafted: Rodgers, Matthews, Raji, Jennings, Jones, Nelson, Cobb, Sitton , Bulaga,... without his drafting acumen there wouldn't have been a SB parade in 2010.

[Gunakor]

I am not sure what MM did 10 years ago has to do with the past years with GB.....but I would venture to guess whomever the QB was(I dont think Drew got there till 2005ish) he wasnt even close to a legit QB.....I would run the ball 21 times per game as well.

The fact is drafting an OL wouldve helped on two fronts, one pass protection and two hopefully a better run blocker.


Aaron Brooks was their QB at the time, and it was the only time in Brooks' career he did look legit. He stunk on ice his entire career except the time he spent working with MM.

[Gunakor]

I think TT's draft record is pretty good, and using a starters from rounds 4-7 is a little squishy. Most people expect R1-3 picks to be starters...you might get a few starters from your late picks, but if your starting lineup is full of late round picks and UDFA's, you probably have a serious talent problem. Maybe we move the criteria: How many starts out of late picks makes you a success?
TT got also starts from guys who aren't on the team anymore like Whitticker, Moll, Colledge, Matt Flynn, Korey Hall, Deshawn Wynn. On defense he got starts from guys like D.J.Smith, Jarius Wynn and a few others I know I'm forgetting. Desmond Bishop, who hopefully stays with the team, was a later round pick.

Expecting your R6 pick (for example) to become a Pro Bowler is asking a lot IMO. Think of all the other players drafted ahead of them in that year alone, never mind all the veterans on rosters. I'd be happy if one of the R7 WRs pans out as a ok #3 or good #4 WR, but I don't expect either to replace Calvin Johnson in the Pro Bowl in the next 3 years. Hitting on a late round player like Marques Colston or (especially) a Tom Brady is an extreme rarity.

Flip it around and think of who TT has drafted: Rodgers, Matthews, Raji, Jennings, Jones, Nelson, Cobb, Sitton , Bulaga,... without his drafting acumen there wouldn't have been a SB parade in 2010.


Wist is upset that we traded down out of round 3 rather than getting a 3rd starter. He's just presenting it from the perspective of the number of starters we've drafted in the rounds we accumulated picks in rather than just saying directly that we could have had a starter in round 3 had we not traded out of it. I thought TT could have gotten an actual center there, for example, and I'm a bit apprehensive going into the season with EDS as the starter and rookie JC Tretter as his backup. It's a legitimate complaint.

[run pMc]

As for the run/pass balance, I hope the Lacy/Franklin/Harris stable works out and presents a credible running game. I could see Lacy being the guy they give snaps in Q1 to soften up and Q4 to wear down teams, and Franklin/Harris get the remainder. Harris was successful because he wasn't hurt, he was small enough to hide behind his blockers (which combined with his quickness, gave him a step on defenses), and his running style.
The running game improved later in the year because of Harris, but also because they benched Saturday and Lang was moved back to LG, bad elbow and all. I don't know if Barclay is a better run blocker than Bulaga.

[run pMc]

I'm a bit apprehensive going into the season with EDS as the starter and rookie JC Tretter as his backup. It's a legitimate complaint.

I agree it's a concern. Ostensibly the list of C's in the league is so 'meh' that Saturday got a NFC Pro Bowl nod despite being benched. (For the record, I think the Vikings have a good one in John Sullivan.) I think TT brought in Tretter and a couple of UDFA's (e.g., the Lewis guy from TexasA&M) to give EDS competition, but this is a gamble that could backfire. EDS has at least some experience at C, and Rodgers is a fan so I think he'll be ok.

[Pugger]

Wist is upset that we traded down out of round 3 rather than getting a 3rd starter. He's just presenting it from the perspective of the number of starters we've drafted in the rounds we accumulated picks in rather than just saying directly that we could have had a starter in round 3 had we not traded out of it. I thought TT could have gotten an actual center there, for example, and I'm a bit apprehensive going into the season with EDS as the starter and rookie JC Tretter as his backup. It's a legitimate complaint.

TT did find a jewel RG in Sitton in a later round and you also can find decent centers later on.

[3irty1]

Some pretty flawed logic going on in this thread. I can't believe it even needs to be said but how on Earth are some of you entertaining the idea that you need to be a starter to warrant a draft pick and everyone outside of your core of probowl players needs to be moved off the roster? After 3 years of being decimated by injuries you guys really want to put more eggs in less baskets? Completely detached from reality. Guys like Newhouse and Starks have gotten us out of some pretty important games including a superbowl. A 53 man roster only carries 22 starters, the rest are backups and/or role players and/or in development and/or special teamers. There is a salary cap and we just lost a former 2nd round pick because of it. Had we not lost another to a career ending injury we'd be losing another. The thought that we can fill the entire 53 man roster with players like that is a sensationally alarmist steaming pile of lie turds.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Lacy is in one of the best positions to win O-ROY. There aren't many QB's looking to be in it this year. He could easily be our #1 RB, and rush for over 1,200 yards and a bunch of TD's. Let's not forget, there was a time when Ryan Grant was getting 4.4YPC and 1,200 yards per season. Lacy could have a very big year.

I think Lacey will have a very big year also and will by far be TT best pick in this past draft. I'm still not sure how he fell to 61 and I'm kind of surprised TT didn't jump on him at 55. We will remember what it feels like to actually have a work horse a running back again.

[wist43]

TT did find a jewel RG in Sitton in a later round and you also can find decent centers later on.

You might able to find a decent center "later on"... but TT can't - b/c he's never drafted one.

[pbmax]

Wist is upset that we traded down out of round 3 rather than getting a 3rd starter. He's just presenting it from the perspective of the number of starters we've drafted in the rounds we accumulated picks in rather than just saying directly that we could have had a starter in round 3 had we not traded out of it. I thought TT could have gotten an actual center there, for example, and I'm a bit apprehensive going into the season with EDS as the starter and rookie JC Tretter as his backup. It's a legitimate complaint.

Its a legitimate complaint but the numbers used to judge rounds 4-7 (and back up the claim that Thompson made a mistake) are not. You can make the case that the players available at Center in Round 3 were better, but Thompson has consistently outperformed Rats who look at the draft simply to fill needs. Outside of the 2012 draft with everyone agreeing when Thompson went big on defense and pass rush*, everyone on this board looking at his drafts based on their perception of team needs found his choices terrible (Collins in 2nd round [value concern], Jennings in Round 2 [Chad Jackson!], Nelson [why another WR], Matthews [need but over drafted], Sherrod [another tackle?], etc.

Drafting for needs is a suckers bet and always trading up is a bad risk management strategy. Though it is far more manageable if you start the draft with 12 picks.

Claiming its a near impossibility to find a starter at Center in those rounds is a little nuts. Just remember when Scott Wells was drafted.

Listing team needs as Left Tackle, Center and a DE and then declaring the draft approach a bust because those positions weren't the picks in the first three rounds is also a fools errand. You have to draft talent and then find starters among your own players.

The only way to replicate the 49er roster is to be bad for a decade and collect a ton of high picks. If you get a good coach, you get the 49ers or Seahawks. If you get a bad coach you get the Lions.


* By the way, that draft, where everyone loved the focus on needs? Produced two of the misfits that are currently giving McGinn and Rats heartburn about the defense's toughness and size. Its a strange world where the team deviates from its normal mode of operation and is congratulated publicly. Until the team has a bad result in the following season and now that draft is a sign of things going off the rails.

Then, team returns to drafting form, and once again are castigated for ignoring needs in the 3rd round. Fascinating.

[3irty1]

You might able to find a decent center "later on"... but TT can't - b/c he's never drafted one.

If Coston doesn't count then he's never drafted a guard either. Most of his picks were college left tackles. Sitton was a right tackle for a left handed QB.

[wist43]

I seriously wonder if you homers are capable of critical and logical thinking??

IF YOUR ONLY MEANS OF PLAYER PROCUREMENT IS THE DRAFT AND STREET FA'S - GUESS WHAT?? YOUR ROSTER IS GOING TO BE FULL OF THOSE GUYS... DOESN'T MEAN THEY CAN PLAY, OR THAT THEY BELONG IN THE LINEUP. TT HAS DRAFTED 4 GUYS WHO BELONG IN AN NFL LINEUP - 4, AND THAT'S IT.

You can't count Newhouse and players like him, b/c they don't belong in the starting lineup. Does Will Witticker count?? He started 1 full season!! Had no business starting, but the position was so weak, that he was the best we had.

In the salary cap era, the roster is necessarily going to be full of minimum wage, developmental projects - that would just as true if TT actually worked to move up in the draft and draft quality players with a legitimate shot at becoming a legit starter.

Other teams find starters thru trades and FA - we don't have those avenues avenues available to us. So, if we only have 1 avenue available to us - we better be hitting on more than 4 out of 44.

[wist43]

If Coston doesn't count then he's never drafted a guard either. Most of his picks were college left tackles. Sitton was a right tackle for a left handed QB.

Yeah, and how has that worked out??

Every year we have one of the shakiest, most underpowered offensive lines in the league. Since TT and MM have arrived, our offensive line has been a mess; and as I pointed out in another thread, the only time during TT's tenure we had any semblance of stability was when Clifton and Wells were still here - both of whom TT inherited. After they left, the line went from average, to being one of the worst lines in the league.

TT always drafts "versatility" as opposed to just drafting a guy that can fill the position. If you need a C, can we please at least draft a C?? TT's answer to that is question is always NO - we must draft a guy who can maybe play center - the TT way.

And you guys wonder why Rodgers is always running for his life??

[3irty1]

Its worked out for us awesome at both guard spots. Actually the only guy playing where he played in college is Marshall Newhouse :huh:

[pbmax]

I seriously wonder if you homers are capable of critical and logical thinking??

IF YOUR ONLY MEANS OF PLAYER PROCUREMENT IS THE DRAFT AND STREET FA'S - GUESS WHAT?? YOUR ROSTER IS GOING TO BE FULL OF THOSE GUYS... DOESN'T MEAN THEY CAN PLAY, OR THAT THEY BELONG IN THE LINEUP. TT HAS DRAFTED 4 GUYS WHO BELONG IN AN NFL LINEUP - 4, AND THAT'S IT.

You can't count Newhouse and players like him, b/c they don't belong in the starting lineup. Does Will Witticker count?? He started 1 full season!! Had no business starting, but the position was so weak, that he was the best we had.

In the salary cap era, the roster is necessarily going to be full of minimum wage, developmental projects - that would just as true if TT actually worked to move up in the draft and draft quality players with a legitimate shot at becoming a legit starter.

Other teams find starters thru trades and FA - we don't have those avenues avenues available to us. So, if we only have 1 avenue available to us - we better be hitting on more than 4 out of 44.

Wil Whitticker was a seventh round choice and got the job by default when the FA they signed and the backup they hoped would improve both fell apart. He was a bad match for the offense as can happen in the seventh round. He got one camp to adjust. The team went 4-12.

Newhouse was a fifth round pick who had 2 camps and one reg season as a Pro with some playing time and occasional start before he was given the starting job outright. He has limitations but the core area of competency for his offense (pass blocking) is his skill strength. The team went 11-5.

Newhouse is eminently replaceable. But he isn't a tire fire like Whitticker. Newhouses strengths and weaknesses are magnified and hidden respectively by his team's offense. They are not the same player, not the same fit nor the same talent level. You can get by with Newhouse while you wait for you depth to get better/healthier or a draftee to come along and claim the job.

[Gunakor]

Some pretty flawed logic going on in this thread. I can't believe it even needs to be said but how on Earth are some of you entertaining the idea that you need to be a starter to warrant a draft pick and everyone outside of your core of probowl players needs to be moved off the roster? After 3 years of being decimated by injuries you guys really want to put more eggs in less baskets? Completely detached from reality. Guys like Newhouse and Starks have gotten us out of some pretty important games including a superbowl. A 53 man roster only carries 22 starters, the rest are backups and/or role players and/or in development and/or special teamers. There is a salary cap and we just lost a former 2nd round pick because of it. Had we not lost another to a career ending injury we'd be losing another. The thought that we can fill the entire 53 man roster with players like that is a sensationally alarmist steaming pile of lie turds.


Right, but we don't have even 1 legitimate starting center amongst 80 players signed/to be signed for training camp. Reshuffling the bottom of the roster is inevitable, but you'd hope to have legitimate starting talent at all 22 starting positions. We don't. That's a problem.

[Gunakor]

Yeah, and how has that worked out??


Bulaga, Lang and Sitton are all locks for their starting positions. So 60% hit rate. It isn't terrible.

[denverYooper]

I seriously wonder if you homers are capable of critical and logical thinking??


Mr. Play It Safe was afraid to fly
He packed his suitcase and kissed his kids goodbye
He waited his whole damn life to take that flight
And as the plane crashed down he thought
"Well isn't this nice..."

[3irty1]

EDS is not a great player but he's not a liability either. If he represents the worst case scenario at center then we're in great shape there with all the competition he'll get. Newhouse's competition is much much scarier IMO. First of all its a more important position but also it depends on a big external factor: Sherrod's health.

[Mazzin]

I don't have any idea what the beef with you two is, but who cares. He made a post which wasn't directed towards anyone and it seemed you attacked him. That's what I see from the outside looking in. Everyone has different opinions on how the draft should go, that much is obvious. To me I think in the draft the more shit you throw at a wall the more that will stick. Think Sam Shields, Brad Jones, late picks or UDFA, I trust in the people getting PAID to evaluate talent personally. Also Woody just out of curiosity, would you be so kind as to tell us who you would have drafted at each of the picks we traded down with, this way we can look at this silly thread 2 years from now and you guys can point fingers and say who was right and what not.

[Gunakor]

EDS is not a great player but he's not a liability either. If he represents the worst case scenario at center then we're in great shape there with all the competition he'll get.


That's not the worst case scenario. Worst case scenario is EDS gets hurt and Tretter is snapping balls to Rodgers, vs. an actual center as the starter where if he got hurt EDS could step in as his backup.

[3irty1]

That's not the worst case scenario. Worst case scenario is EDS gets hurt and Tretter is snapping balls to Rodgers, vs. an actual center as the starter where if he got hurt EDS could step in as his backup.

That could be said for every single position on the team.

[hoosier]

I don't have any idea what the beef with you two is, but who cares. He made a post which wasn't directed towards anyone and it seemed you attacked him. That's what I see from the outside looking in. Everyone has different opinions on how the draft should go, that much is obvious. To me I think in the draft the more shit you throw at a wall the more that will stick. Think Sam Shields, Brad Jones, late picks or UDFA, I trust in the people getting PAID to evaluate talent personally. Also Woody just out of curiosity, would you be so kind as to tell us who you would have drafted at each of the picks we traded down with, this way we can look at this silly thread 2 years from now and you guys can point fingers and say who was right and what not.

Something tells me that, for better or worse, Woodward is not going to be sharing his Big Board with us anytime soon.

[rbaloha1]

EDS is not a great player but he's not a liability either. If he represents the worst case scenario at center then we're in great shape there with all the competition he'll get. Newhouse's competition is much much scarier IMO. First of all its a more important position but also it depends on a big external factor: Sherrod's health.

Unsure why there is considerable doubt concerning EDS -- did any one notice the line improvement over Saturday?

[wist43]

Bulaga, Lang and Sitton are all locks for their starting positions. So 60% hit rate. It isn't terrible.

Bulaga doesn't count for the purposes of this discussion b/c he was a 1st round pick.

Lang and Sitton are acknowledged by all as being hits in the later rounds; but that's 2 out 4 hits; and 4 hits out 44 at bats.

Some tried to poke a hole in my logic by mentioning all of the good picks in the starting lineup - every single one of them was a 1st or 2nd round pick. That doesn't poke holes in my argument - that supports my argument!!!

You best chance of finding a starter in the NFL draft?? rounds 1-3. Rounds 4-7 are dart throwing contests, and TT's numbers don't add up. 4/44 = 9.09%. And that's even including 4th round picks - which I consider to be fairly high picks.

The rest of the fodder might as well be street FA's - as those guys have about as good a chance at the roster as your average 6th/7th round pick. So stop stockpiling the picks, and move up to get some starters. Get your camp bodies and fill out the bottom of your roster thru street FA's and low cost vets.

Of course TT doesn't want anyone over 18 on his roster, so vets on the downside, but still having something to offer need not appply.

[Guiness]

Lacy is in one of the best positions to win O-ROY. There aren't many QB's looking to be in it this year. He could easily be our #1 RB, and rush for over 1,200 yards and a bunch of TD's. Let's not forget, there was a time when Ryan Grant was getting 4.4YPC and 1,200 yards per season. Lacy could have a very big year.

True. O-ROY has been reserved for the top QB 4 of the last 5 years. With no rookie QB likely to start, it's a wide open race. Well, Smith could start for the Jets I guess :)

Interesting, the last 2 non-QB winners have been from the Vikings, Harvin and Peterson!

[3irty1]

Bulaga doesn't count for the purposes of this discussion b/c he was a 1st round pick.

Lang and Sitton are acknowledged by all as being hits in the later rounds; but that's 2 out 4 hits; and 4 hits out 44 at bats.

Some tried to poke a hole in my logic by mentioning all of the good picks in the starting lineup - every single one of them was a 1st or 2nd round pick. That doesn't poke holes in my argument - that supports my argument!!!

You best chance of finding a starter in the NFL draft?? rounds 1-3. Rounds 4-7 are dart throwing contests, and TT's numbers don't add up. 4/44 = 9.09%. And that's even including 4th round picks - which I consider to be fairly high picks.

The rest of the fodder might as well be street FA's - as those guys have about as good a chance at the roster as your average 6th/7th round pick. So stop stockpiling the picks, and move up to get some starters. Get your camp bodies and fill out the bottom of your roster thru street FA's and low cost vets.

Of course TT doesn't want anyone over 18 on his roster, so vets on the downside, but still having something to offer need not appply.

You're changing between your two arguments here. That was in regards to your question about how drafting for versatility was working out so far.

[Guiness]

"pre-2010 fourth round and later picks" Guiness

I don't dislike any Packer players Guiness.

Marshall Newhouse was drafted in 2010 Rd. 5 (169) before James Starks, Rd. 6 and CJ Wilson, Rd. 7.

I'm looking at Packers drafted 2009 and back to 2005 and Rd. 4-7 selections. I thought that was clear fr. above Guiness, or your understanding.

Johnny Jolly would be on the list as he was drafted by TT in 2006 Rd. 6 (183). He is one of the six I counted:

Mason Crosby; Desmond Bishop; Brad Jones; TJ Lang; Josh Sitton and Johnny Jolly.

The others were drafted prior to the 2010 season, meaning they've been on the roster for 3 years - pretty good for a late round pick, IMO. Adding a year to that raises the bar considerably - I doubt you'll find more than one or two other teams that meet the criteria:
-drafted in 4th round or later
-drafted in 2009 or earlier
-still with original team.

Other players (Bush, Goode, Masthay) may have originally been on other teams, but are still late rounders and show the value of those picks on a roster.

[Guiness]

Some pretty flawed logic going on in this thread. I can't believe it even needs to be said but how on Earth are some of you entertaining the idea that you need to be a starter to warrant a draft pick and everyone outside of your core of probowl players needs to be moved off the roster? After 3 years of being decimated by injuries you guys really want to put more eggs in less baskets? Completely detached from reality. Guys like Newhouse and Starks have gotten us out of some pretty important games including a superbowl. A 53 man roster only carries 22 starters, the rest are backups and/or role players and/or in development and/or special teamers. There is a salary cap and we just lost a former 2nd round pick because of it. Had we not lost another to a career ending injury we'd be losing another. The thought that we can fill the entire 53 man roster with players like that is a sensationally alarmist steaming pile of lie turds.

+1

Salary Cap baby. Can't have starters all through the roster, including the back up positions, this isn't MLB, and the Pack is not the Yankees.

[wist43]

You're changing between your two arguments here. That was in regards to your question about how drafting for versatility was working out so far.

You're right... easy to change lanes on the fly - tryin to get some breakfast together here :)

As for the "versatility" debate, I don't consider those guys versatile - they are where they should be. I don't mind projecting a guy from college to the pros if the reason is that he was miscast in college, or for whatever reason was playing in a scheme that doesn't translate well to what the pro team does.

That said, I consider Lang to be an average to slightly below average starter, and should always have been viewed as a guard; Sitton is guard, period; and Bulaga is a OT, period. The Packers love to move guys around just for the hell of it, but it never works out. Although they've been doing much less of this lately.

We don't even have a true center on the roster. Everyone points to the upgrade of EDS over Saturday (one of the very few vets TT has brought in); but Saturday took himself out of the lineup b/c he knew his body was done - he couldn't play effectively, and did the right thing and benched himself.

Schwenke was available, Jones was available - draft a guy, and forget about the position for 4-5 years. Now we're right back where we started - the 32nd ranked LT and center.

If you think protecting your $100 million investment with low end players is a good idea, then you shouldn't mind watching Graham Harrell sooner rather than later. 51 sacks?? It's just a matter of time.

[wist43]

+1

Salary Cap baby. Can't have starters all through the roster, including the back up positions, this isn't MLB, and the Pack is not the Yankees.

The problem is that we don't have starters that are starters.

As for having backups that are starter capable - the Niners have that luxury. There were reports that the Packers had interest in Ricky Jean-Francios who signed with the Colts for 4 years, $22 million. Ricky Jean-Francios is a very good player who couldn't even crack SF's starting lineup - in Green Bay he would have been arguably our best DL along with Raji. Instead, we have CJ Wilson starting, and Capers playing all kinds of gimmicks.

What is TT looking for with all these spitball picks if not starters?? The list of spitball picks is a mess - hindsight is 20/20, but I would think TT should be able to analyze what's come before, and adjust his approach. We need starters, not more camp fodder.

[3irty1]

You're right... easy to change lanes on the fly - tryin to get some breakfast together here :)

As for the "versatility" debate, I don't consider those guys versatile - they are where they should be. I don't mind projecting a guy from college to the pros if the reason is that he was miscast in college, or for whatever reason was playing in a scheme that doesn't translate well to what the pro team does.

That said, I consider Lang to be an average to slightly below average starter, and should always have been viewed as a guard; Sitton is guard, period; and Bulaga is a OT, period. The Packers love to move guys around just for the hell of it, but it never works out. Although they've been doing much less of this lately.

We don't even have a true center on the roster. Everyone points to the upgrade of EDS over Saturday (one of the very few vets TT has brought in); but Saturday took himself out of the lineup b/c he knew his body was done - he couldn't play effectively, and did the right thing and benched himself.

Schwenke was available, Jones was available - draft a guy, and forget about the position for 4-5 years. Now we're right back where we started - the 32nd ranked LT and center.

If you think protecting your $100 million investment with low end players is a good idea, then you shouldn't mind watching Graham Harrell sooner rather than later. 51 sacks?? It's just a matter of time.

I get it and that probably would have happened if EDS weren't on the roster, or maybe I just can't bring to nitpick about the center spot when there is a crisis at left tackle. EDS is just better than Newhouse at a position that is far less important. EDS is nowhere near the worst starting center in the league and ranking him as such is cutting Newhouse more slack than he deserves.

[3irty1]

The problem is that we don't have starters that are starters.

As for having backups that are starter capable - the Niners have that luxury. There were reports that the Packers had interest in Ricky Jean-Francios who signed with the Colts for 4 years, $22 million. Ricky Jean-Francios is a very good player who couldn't even crack SF's starting lineup - in Green Bay he would have been arguably our best DL along with Raji. Instead, we have CJ Wilson starting, and Capers playing all kinds of gimmicks.

What is TT looking for with all these spitball picks if not starters?? The list of spitball picks is a mess - hindsight is 20/20, but I would think TT should be able to analyze what's come before, and adjust his approach. We need starters, not more camp fodder.

We have no idea how good San Fransisco's backups are because they've barely had to use them. They were one of the healthiest teams in football last year. As for Ricky, he sure didn't look like a starter in place of Justin Smith while the 49ers were getting their shit pushed in by the Seahawks towards the end of the year. Funny that you like him so much though. He was a 7th round pick!

[run pMc]

We have no idea how good San Fransisco's backups are because they've barely had to use them. They were one of the healthiest teams in football last year. As for Ricky, he sure didn't look like a starter in place of Justin Smith while the 49ers were getting their shit pushed in by the Seahawks towards the end of the year. Funny that you like him so much though. He was a 7th round pick!

SF didn't substitute much. IIRC, they had the lowest number of rookie snaps in the league...so either they weren't ready, provided terrible depth, or the starters were just that good. When Justin Smith got hurt Aldon Smith and the defense looked mortal.


Schwenke was available, Jones was available - draft a guy, and forget about the position for 4-5 years. Now we're right back where we started - the 32nd ranked LT and center.


I agree they need to protect Rodgers, and 51 sacks is way too many. Rodgers did his line no favors by holding the ball too long, this after having the alarm clock in TC. I think calling EDS and Newhouse the 32 ranked LT and C is exaggerating. There were a couple of other teams that were tirefires at OL (Arizona and Chicago come to mind) last year. TT drafts at OL every year, he's drafted Sherrod and Bulaga in R1; he brought in Saturday last year because (although running on fumes) he was the best player available once Wells -- who was hurt most of the year -- jumped ship. It's not like TT ignores the OL.

That said, I was hoping he'd take Schwenke but TEN grabbed him first. For all the talk about Barrett Jones, there are a lot of people who think he will have a lot of trouble with bull rushers and strength on the NFL level. Look, the Bears drafted Kyle Long at #20 and got roasted for it. I have to think TT didn't think there was a better player available when he was on the clock, and it Bahktiari wasn't considered a reach. Tretter and Patrick Lewis will push EDS and learn to play C at the pro level...many centers come in as UDFA or low round picks and go on to have long careers. (Scott Wells, Jeff Saturday.) It's not a position where teams usually draft high.

Look at it this way: if you have 22 starters, and only your R1-3 picks ever became starters, you'd be replacing them about every 7 years. That's what GB got out of Greg Jennings and Charles Woodson.

[pbmax]

Saturday did not take himself out of the lineup. Collingsworth made that up.

[rbaloha1]

We have no idea how good San Fransisco's backups are because they've barely had to use them. They were one of the healthiest teams in football last year. As for Ricky, he sure didn't look like a starter in place of Justin Smith while the 49ers were getting their shit pushed in by the Seahawks towards the end of the year. Funny that you like him so much though. He was a 7th round pick!

Who cares about 7th round pick. Ricky was a good player along Soapoaga. Wish both were Packers.

[Gunakor]

That could be said for every single position on the team.

But we could have done something to address this issue at this position. EDS > Tretter is far worse for us than, say, Schwenke > EDS. Can we agree on that? I would hope so.

So then, what did we get for the picks we accumulated for trading out of the 3rd round that should justify the strategy? Camp bodies. Maybe one of the WR's will pan out as the next Brett Swain. Maybe. The point is, we could have had a legit starter at a position we don't have a legit starter at, and we didn't get one. I didn't like the move, and I don't like what we have afterwards.

EDS is a backup. He's starting because we didn't find someone better. We could have, we should have, and we didn't. That's the crux of the argument.

[woodbuck27]

Originally Posted by King Friday

** "Then why did Deuce McAllister average 21 carries a game for McCarthy over 3 years in New Orleans?

McCarthy is all about BALANCE in his offense. The issue is that the talent at RB given to him by Thompson over the last 2-3 years has been PATHETIC. No one in their right mind would run very often with the crap backs we were trotting out there. When Cedric Benson comes in and looks like Jim Brown compared to everyone else, you know your RBs suck balls." King Friday

** This big time. Pugger

WOW! Comparisons of Cedric Benson >>>Jim Brown. That's heavy. Must be another Jim Brown. :-)

TT finally came through with some help at RB. I truly believe we have some talent this time. When TT saw the value in Johnathan Franklin just sitting there he made a move. That's IMO where it's at Packer fans. See it and go for it >>>trade UP >>>!!

TT 'only' had 4-5 position priority needs (including RB) and those could have been filled with Rd. 1-5 Picks. Take the Eddie Lacy pick away and substitute with a priority need pick at #55 (screw the 49ers). Use pick #88 and again screw the 49ers. Let the 49ers be 'on their own' without Green Bay Packer help.

That's simple common sense.

Back to reality and what it was >>> hopefully will be. :glug:

It's actually amazing to me that he puled off both Eddie Lacy and Johnathan Franklin. Solid value picks. These two RB's ranked #1 and #2 by Draft Scouts. Many analysts had Johnathan Franklin ranked down as the 7th best RB... whatever.

Now we wait and hope to see. The Aaron Rodgers led offense can sure benefit with a 30% improvement in our running game. That running game will keep Aaron Rodgers off his duff alot more too. Help to keep him from getting his bell rung, and protect TT's investment.

If we lose Aaron Rodgers you all know which direction up 'shit creek' we'll be pointed. On that note...with all those picks >>> no QB drafted? That's puzzling. I'll add that to my list. LOL

I have to look to see if TT is bringing in a prospect as a UFA at QB.

So where we are now at RB:

I really liked DuJuan Harris. I hope there's a place for him in our stable of RB's. That fella has so much heart.

That Packers may go with four RB's ( Lacy, Franklin, Harris and Green ). Those are my initial thought choices. If James Starks can somehow get fired up and stay healthy. It will be interesting between AJ Green, James Starks and DuJuan 'Big Man' Harris.

GO PACK GO !

[HarveyWallbangers]

So then, what did we get for the picks we accumulated for trading out of the 3rd round that should justify the strategy? Camp bodies. Maybe one of the WR's will pan out as the next Brett Swain. Maybe. The point is, we could have had a legit starter at a position we don't have a legit starter at, and we didn't get one. I didn't like the move, and I don't like what we have afterwards.

Or maybe Charles Johnson turns into the next Donald Driver or Marques Colston. The talent is certainly intriguing:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAnnqcgkCfc

[RashanGary]

I get it and that probably would have happened if EDS weren't on the roster, or maybe I just can't bring to nitpick about the center spot when there is a crisis at left tackle. EDS is just better than Newhouse at a position that is far less important. EDS is nowhere near the worst starting center in the league and ranking him as such is cutting Newhouse more slack than he deserves.

This is idiotic

[Gunakor]

Or maybe Charles Johnson turns into the next Donald Driver or Marques Colston. The talent is certainly intriguing

It's possible. Anything is possible.

Schwenke would have become the top center immediately, whereas Johnson - even if he is the next DD or Colston - might become the #3 WR in a year or two. This isn't denying the potential we got in the seventh, it's pointing out the greater talent at a position of greater need that we passed up on in the third. And nobody has yet to provide a good reason why it was a good idea to do so. I try to have an open mind about it but the logic isn't there.

Seriously, is anyone happy about starting the season with EDS at center and Johnson on the sidelines except when we go 4 wide? It didn't have to be that way. But that's the way it's turned out. The draft is over now, so now is the time for us to be asking these questions. It's a good debate. I just don't see the logic to support what Ted did.

[3irty1]

But we could have done something to address this issue at this position. EDS > Tretter is far worse for us than, say, Schwenke > EDS. Can we agree on that? I would hope so.

So then, what did we get for the picks we accumulated for trading out of the 3rd round that should justify the strategy? Camp bodies. Maybe one of the WR's will pan out as the next Brett Swain. Maybe. The point is, we could have had a legit starter at a position we don't have a legit starter at, and we didn't get one. I didn't like the move, and I don't like what we have afterwards.

EDS is a backup. He's starting because we didn't find someone better. We could have, we should have, and we didn't. That's the crux of the argument.

Can't say I know much at all about how Tretter will do if placed at center actually. Its pure speculation by me so far that that's even what he was drafted for. I've also heard Bakhtiari can play center and McCarthy just said Lang can play center. Seems like there are lots of good options even if none of them are our personal draft crushes.

[3irty1]

This is idiotic

That's one way to disagree with me.

[MadtownPacker]

Dammit is it a fool moon tonight?

[Guiness]

Or maybe Charles Johnson turns into the next Donald Driver or Marques Colston. The talent is certainly intriguing:



6'2" 215lb, and he looks thicker than that in the video. Very thick lower body!

[RashanGary]

That's one way to disagree with me.


Rodgers had the greatest season a QB has ever had with Newhouse starting every game at LT.

Last year, when Bulaga went down, the crisis help went to the right side (Lang and Barclay)


The other Newhouse "performance trend" points I've made too often to repeat, but he's not the big crisis for us. Our OL got worse with the loss of Wells and Bulaga. It wasn't a crisis before that.

[RashanGary]

thirty1,

Did the Newhouse crisis in 2011 prevent us from being one of the most dominant offenses in NFL history? Also, please expand on that crisis, show how it prevented our offense from performing. Lastly, if he is starting, would you expect his play to be better or worse than 2011 (his first year starting?) He does have 32 NFL starts at LT under his belt since the beginning of that season. He is only 25 years old this year.

[woodbuck27]

The others were drafted prior to the 2010 season, meaning they've been on the roster for 3 years - pretty good for a late round pick, IMO. Adding a year to that raises the bar considerably - I doubt you'll find more than one or two other teams that meet the criteria:
-drafted in 4th round or later
-drafted in 2009 or earlier
-still with original team.

Other players (Bush, Goode, Masthay) may have originally been on other teams, but are still late rounders and show the value of those picks on a roster.

Masthay's a punter. Brett Goode is a Long Snapper and both seem secure.

CB Bush has had value primarily on ST's. How much longer that lasts, is anyone's guess. Maybe TT was looking for a ST player to replace Jarrett Bush?

Our team needs prior to this draft 'as a priority' were:

#1... 3-4 'Rush' DE (Datone Jones); #2 ... SS*; and chose 2/3 priorities between 3-4 OLB; OL and RB. That leaves ** the other.

After that it was (** the other) and WR.

TT started the draft with 8 picks and traded down to raise that total to 12; traded up for RB J. Franklin to end up with 11 picks in his draft class.

* He did get a CB (Micah Hyde, Iowa) that might be converted to safety? Otherwise he might have neglected his #2 priority and 'yes' he feels very comfortable with his position at DB.

TT did select at OLB, OL, RB and WR. Other that at RB the question is of quality and that at the other positions.

TT did one more thing I can't agree with.

He neglected a third Rd. pick at #88, that might have been used to pick a solid player for us after he passed on DT Sylvester Williams for DE Datone Jones @ # 26. TT had solid options at #88. He bypassed ...ignored them.

After he went OT with #109>>> he selected a fella that I had on my map>>> OT J.C. Tretter. I was 'again' surprized Guiness with that pick.

I thought that I saw several better options at #122, and exclusively at the LT position. I want to withhold a final opinion on that pick. I discovered something in my files I need to look closer at.

Hey Guiness. Here's the bottom line. I am positive that I saw a better way for TT and our team. I do not mean that in any sense of the word 'arrogance'. I do not mean that as any insult to Ted Thompson. He did it his way, as he had to and that ... the best he could. I'm sure too that like me TT's going over it all. He's seen 'a better way' yesterday. Better still>>>today. That's what competant managing is all about. It's never ending, always improving your team.

His better way can always improve. The mere suggestion or references I read in here from posters; that Ted Thompson couldn't be wrong is pure hogwash. Nonsense or naive posting... as Ted Thompson himself would laugh at that.

I put my time into this draft. As another poster commented. I'm well read and matters NFL/football. Yes... I'm well read. This is a tad more than a simple hobby for me. I love this stuff. I apply all that to a perspective on how the Green Bay Packers might improve. I placed an enormous effort and focus on this draft. I dare say that few at Packerrats were more dedicated to that focus. I did that to ensure I knew how close TT was to truly getting it right. :mrgreen:

I try to give all that to Packerrats. Am I sure of his results? Noone really is sure of his results and this draft class. Alot of that will now depend on Coach McCarthy and his staff. On Dom Capers and his group of coaches on the defensive side of the ball.

I don't need to prove common sense. I don't need to dispell ignorance or condemnation in any sense.

I don't know where we're (you and I) are at? RE: Exact numbers of men on our Packers roster, within a certain category. I certainly do know this.

Wist43 and my points (which 'by the way' reflect an obvious concern, based in simple observation) are not far off >>> to bang on. I sure hope that the toughness on the Green Bay Packers shows up in 2013.

That alot of TT's and MM's and the Packers Coaching staff's hopes and plans come through. If that's not the case. That San Francisco 49ers or Seattle Seahawks or Atlanta Falcons are Super Bowl bound this season. The good news to date.

The Green Bay Packers are right up there in the Power Ranking. It was #6 in the ranking I saw today.

Here's the real bottom line and the one that shouldn't seperate any Packer fan, 'of course' all ego aside. Ahhhh EGO the worst curse here:

GO PACK GO !

[wist43]

It's possible. Anything is possible.

Schwenke would have become the top center immediately, whereas Johnson - even if he is the next DD or Colston - might become the #3 WR in a year or two. This isn't denying the potential we got in the seventh, it's pointing out the greater talent at a position of greater need that we passed up on in the third. And nobody has yet to provide a good reason why it was a good idea to do so. I try to have an open mind about it but the logic isn't there.

Seriously, is anyone happy about starting the season with EDS at center and Johnson on the sidelines except when we go 4 wide? It didn't have to be that way. But that's the way it's turned out. The draft is over now, so now is the time for us to be asking these questions. It's a good debate. I just don't see the logic to support what Ted did.

We have 8 years of evidence to look at.

We can all see the high round hits - but as has been hashed out in other threads, it is illusory to think that TT is a late round savant - b/c his record, upon closer examination really isn't very good.

All of the homers give TT max credit for any draft choice that sticks on the roster - but b/c the draft and street FA are our only means of player procurement, of course the roster is going to be stacked with those guys - whether they are legit starters, or even rosterable players - or not.

What's happening, all TT is accomplishing, is that he's constantly turning over the bottom of the roster - "mining for bums" I call it (Fritz has some different ideas about what this process is - my innocence dashed in a flash).

AGAIN, if this is your only means of player procurement - you must be landing starters out of this process. Yes, you must land at least 22, and I don't think that's asking too much. Since your odds of hitting on earlier round choices are much better - and TT has hit on many - then that helps lower the number of starters you must procure later in the draft, and in FA.

Solid starters from the early rounds: (offense) Rodgers, Matthews, Bulaga, Cobb, Nelson, Jones, Finley; (defense) Raji, Matthews, Burnett, Hawk; (probable, but too early to say for sure) Heyward, Perry, House.

All tolled, that's 14 players. You only need to get 8 more players out of other means. After 8 years, we have 3 guys from lower rounds in previous drafts that are starting, and belong in an NFL lineup (Sitton, Lang, and Bishop). Jolly would be on that list too, but he's a huge question mark. The only other 2 guys that could fall into that catagory would be Newhouse and CJ Wilson - both of whom need to be replaced in the lineup, so I don't consider them hits.

Over the past 8 years we've drafted in rounds 4-7, and developed into starters on our team - legitmate starters - 3 guys.

The jury is still out on last years late round guys, but they can't be evaluated yet. So, to date - that's the number you homers have to defend, if you're going to chortle on about the wisdom of TT's approach. The numbers say we have 3 guys out of 48 picks.

I don't want to hear a bunch of crap about a guy who had a cup of coffee - or someone like Newhouse who needs to be replaced. They're in the lineup b/c their on the roster, not b/c they belong there. At best Newhouse is a backup. As I said, we need starters - not more camp fodder.

[Gunakor]

Can't say I know much at all about how Tretter will do if placed at center actually. Its pure speculation by me so far that that's even what he was drafted for. I've also heard Bakhtiari can play center and McCarthy just said Lang can play center. Seems like there are lots of good options even if none of them are our personal draft crushes.


I'm sure Lang could play center, but he's already a starting guard. Not sure if Bakhtiari can play center, I'll take MM's word for it. But even if he can play the position, it's not his position.

It remains to be seen if Bakhtiari, even if he can play center, would be better than EDS. And EDS isn't a center to begin with. I'm not looking for options, I'm looking for upgrades. Options is something Green Bay has had plenty of over the last several seasons, though many times none of the options are ideal. My fear is that we have found ourselves having 3 C rated players at the position, and I'd rather have 1 A or B rated player than 3 C rated players.

I'm with Wist 100% on this one. Enough with the versatility crap. Find positional starters, not utility backups. We have enough of those already. Bakhtiari and Tretter and EDS might be able to play center, but they are not centers. Want a center, draft or sign a center, don't draft or sign a tackle and ask him to play center. Enough is enough. How many more EDS's do we need?

[3irty1]

thirty1,

Did the Newhouse crisis in 2011 prevent us from being one of the most dominant offenses in NFL history? Also, please expand on that crisis, show how it prevented our offense from performing. Lastly, if he is starting, would you expect his play to be better or worse than 2011 (his first year starting?) He does have 32 NFL starts at LT under his belt since the beginning of that season. He is only 25 years old this year.

Newhouse is good enough to win with, that much is proven. The crisis of it is that we have our worst starting offensive lineman (when they're all healthy) playing at our most important position. I think with more reps and such he could eventually be enough of a tactician to be starter calibre in pass protection but I'm not sure it'd be worth it because of how little he offers in the running game. He's done enough for the franchise that he deserves a fair fight in camp but I'm very much in favor of putting him up against some stiff competition... and I'm not so sure we have stiff competition without a healthy Sherrod. Maybe Bakhtiari.

[wist43]

This is the same argument I made in the other thread.

None of you homers could put a dent in the argument - all you could do was try to change the criteria and accuse me of having unreasonable expectations. I don't think the argument I have laid out above is unreasonable.

We have holes in our lineups on both sides of the ball, and we are lacking effective depth. Rodgers is covering for a lot of sins - including a dismal defense. TT addressed 2 holes (DE and RB), and ignored several others (LT, C, NT, ILB - we need help everywhere).

Bottom line, I don't think this draft improved us appreciably b/c TT refused to pull the trigger on guys like Schwenke, Williams, Patton, Lemonier, Winters, et al. Instead we got the lightest T in the draft, the circus freak from Colorado, and a LB'er that ran a blistering 4.91, 40.

We need quality, not quantity, out of the draft. Go out and round up your quantity from undrafted street FA's - guys like Tramon Williams and Will Shields were outstanding finds.

[3irty1]

I'm sure Lang could play center, but he's already a starting guard. Not sure if Bakhtiari can play center, I'll take MM's word for it. But even if he can play the position, it's not his position.

It remains to be seen if Bakhtiari, even if he can play center, would be better than EDS. And EDS isn't a center to begin with. I'm not looking for options, I'm looking for upgrades. Options is something Green Bay has had plenty of over the last several seasons, though many times none of the options are ideal. My fear is that we have found ourselves having 3 C rated players at the position, and I'd rather have 1 A or B rated player than 3 C rated players.

I'm with Wist 100% on this one. Enough with the versatility crap. Find positional starters, not utility backups. We have enough of those already. Bakhtiari and Tretter and EDS might be able to play center, but they are not centers. Want a center, draft or sign a center, don't draft or sign a tackle and ask him to play center. Enough is enough. How many more EDS's do we need?

EDS has backed up a guard spot for us before but has spent the majority of his time in the NFL as a center. I think he is a center to begin with and was starting to look like a long term answer. As it stands today we've got competition for him in camp, a few different backup options for him, and possibly a more athletic Matt Birk clone to groom behind him. Maybe I shouldn't be but I'm comfortable with that right now.

[Gunakor]

This is the same argument I made in the other thread.

None of you homers could put a dent in the argument - all you could do was try to change the criteria and accuse me of having unreasonable expectations. I don't think the argument I have laid out above is unreasonable.

We have holes in our lineups on both sides of the ball, and we are lacking effective depth. Rodgers is covering for a lot of sins - including a dismal defense. TT addressed 2 holes (DE and RB), and ignored several others (LT, C, NT, ILB - we need help everywhere).

Bottom line, I don't think this draft improved us appreciably b/c TT refused to pull the trigger on guys like Schwenke, Williams, Patton, Lemonier, Winters, et al. Instead we got the lightest T in the draft, the circus freak from Colorado, and a LB'er that ran a blistering 4.91, 40.

We need quality, not quantity, out of the draft. Go out and round up your quantity from undrafted street FA's - guys like Tyrone Williams and Will Shields were outstanding finds.

Disagree with NT and ILB. Upgrades there would have been nice, but Raji and Hawk are at the very least starter quality - even if they aren't superstars. Ditto for LT, although Newhouse is only marginally starting quality and should be easy enough to upgrade from. RB, DE, and C were the only 3 positions where I looked at the roster and couldn't find even one starting quality player. Ted whiffed on center big time, but came up huge at the other 2. I'm not sour on the draft as a whole, I just think we could have found a serviceable starting quality player at the 3rd position of desparate need and have failed to do so. It's my only complaint from this draft. But it's a rather huge complaint.

[HarveyWallbangers]

It's possible. Anything is possible.

Schwenke would have become the top center immediately, whereas Johnson - even if he is the next DD or Colston - might become the #3 WR in a year or two. This isn't denying the potential we got in the seventh, it's pointing out the greater talent at a position of greater need that we passed up on in the third. And nobody has yet to provide a good reason why it was a good idea to do so. I try to have an open mind about it but the logic isn't there.

What happens if Tretter turns out to be better than Schwenke? What happens if Tretter turns out to be better than Schwenke, and Johnson is more than a camp body? Certainly not outside of the realm of possibility. Thompson has a way of surprising us. Jolly, Bishop, Sitton, Lang, Newhouse, etc. were all 4th round or later selections who turned out to be better than many players at their positions that went ahead of them and were projected to be better. I'd also add House. I think his future looks brighter than many of the corners drafted a round or two before him, provided he gets over his injury.

[Gunakor]

What happens if Tretter turns out to be better than Schwenke? What happens if Tretter turns out to be better than Schwenke, and Johnson is more than a camp body? Certainly not outside of the realm of possibility. Thompson has a way of surprising us. Jolly, Bishop, Sitton, Lang, Newhouse, etc. were all 4th round or later selections who turned out to be better than many players at their positions that went ahead of them and were projected to be better. I'd also add House. I think his future looks brighter than many of the corners drafted a round or two before him, provided he gets over his injury.

Johnson probably makes the 53. He won't unseat Nelson or Cobb for one of the top 2 spots. I'd bet a year's salary on that. He'll become the #3 when James Jones leaves for greener pastures, but until then he's stuck at #4. The other WR they drafted is a camp body, practice squad candidate maybe.

Tretter might become a decent offensive lineman, but he's not a center. Schwenke is. After 8 years of drafting specifically left tackles, you'd think we'd have found long term starters at every OL position if that was a workable strategy. It's clearly not. If we need a center, we draft a bloody center. No, Tretter won't be a better center than Schwenke. But he's probably a better tackle than Schwenke is.

[pbmax]

This is the same argument I made in the other thread.

None of you homers could put a dent in the argument - all you could do was try to change the criteria and accuse me of having unreasonable expectations. I don't think the argument I have laid out above is unreasonable.

We have holes in our lineups on both sides of the ball, and we are lacking effective depth. Rodgers is covering for a lot of sins - including a dismal defense. TT addressed 2 holes (DE and RB), and ignored several others (LT, C, NT, ILB - we need help everywhere).

Bottom line, I don't think this draft improved us appreciably b/c TT refused to pull the trigger on guys like Schwenke, Williams, Patton, Lemonier, Winters, et al. Instead we got the lightest T in the draft, the circus freak from Colorado, and a LB'er that ran a blistering 4.91, 40.

We need quality, not quantity, out of the draft. Go out and round up your quantity from undrafted street FA's - guys like Tramon Williams and Will Shields were outstanding finds.

Drafting for need is a fools errand. Ask Mike Sherman.

If there are questions about Schwenke (and there would seem to be since he was a 3rd round prospect) and he can't play Guard, that adds to the risk. Wasn't he the one who played fast and quick but lacked power?

No one here is dealing with the full set of data. No one has interviewed any of the players. No one has access to a criminal background checks or drug tests. No one has talked privately to the kid's college coaches.

Remember the Jerry Jones photo with his draft board in the background? There were very few players with 3rd round grades or better compared to the list from draft sites. What if Schwenke graded out as a 5th round prospect to the Packers. To take him means leaving other, better players on the board?

Last word. Each poster will remember the one pick they called and wished the Packers selected. But will any of them remember the other five they were wrong about? No one forgets Ted's errors.

[Gunakor]

Fine, not Schwenke. Someone else that played the position as a starter in college then. An actual center, not a left tackle being converted to center. Ted didn't draft any centers at any point of any round in any draft during his entire tenure here. The result is what we see on our roster as it stands today. It's absolutely infuriating. You can't just keep drafting left tackles and expect to put together an entire offensive line using just left tackles. As good as he's been providing talent at most positions on this team he is an utter failure when it comes to the offensive line.

[Zool]

Last word. Each poster will remember the one pick they called and wished the Packers selected. But will any of them remember the other five they were wrong about? No one forgets Ted's errors.

Selective amnesia is a bitch and we're all geniuses.

[KYPack]

Everyone is right about TT's MO.

The starting line were all tackles in college.
Newhouse, Lang, EDS, & Bulaga were all LT's.
Josh Sitton was a RT.

But so what?

Who cares if a guy was a cornerback and is now our starting center.

As long as the cat can play.

[Patler]

I thought the general impression of EDS in his limited games at center was pretty positive, wasn't it?
Is it a forgone conclusion that he is NOT the long-term answer at center?

The Packers have implied that they are willing to open things up to improve the O-line. If EDS is not a long term answer, wouldn't we all be surprised if the starting lineup from left to right went something like this:

Datko/Sherrod - Bulaga - Lang - Sitton - Barclay.

Bulaga virtually had the LG spot snatched away from Colledge, but than got hurt at the end of TC and for the first week or two in his rookie year. Never had the chance to challenge Colledge again as he was needed instead at RT. Lang has worked a bit at center, and when he was drafted many said it might be his best position ultimately. Barclay is a scrapper who just might turn out to be a new vintage of Mark Tauscher.

However, I do think that a Bulaga/Barclay combination might be the best at tackle, rather than Bulaga at RT with any of Newhouse, Sherrod, Datko or Bakhtiari at LT.

[3irty1]

I thought the general impression of EDS in his limited games at center was pretty positive, wasn't it?
Is it a forgone conclusion that he is NOT the long-term answer at center?

The Packers have implied that they are willing to open things up to improve the O-line. If EDS is not a long term answer, wouldn't we all be surprised if the starting lineup from left to right went something like this:

Datko/Sherrod - Bulaga - Lang - Sitton - Barclay.

Bulaga virtually had the LG spot snatched away from Colledge, but than got hurt at the end of TC and for the first week or two in his rookie year. Never had the chance to challenge Colledge again as he was needed instead at RT. Lang has worked a bit at center, and when he was drafted many said it might be his best position ultimately. Barclay is a scrapper who just might turn out to be a new vintage of Mark Tauscher.

However, I do think that a Bulaga/Barclay combination might be the best at tackle, rather than Bulaga at RT with any of Newhouse, Sherrod, Datko or Bakhtiari at LT.

The most telling evidence in my mind that the Packers aren't that into EDS was his lowest qualifying RFA tender. I recall most fans expected his tender to be much higher than it was based on his play, so I think this is where the perception came from that EDS sucks. Seems like the market has been pretty terrible for all RFA's this year.

[pbmax]

The tender offer is also a bet to some degree, like baseball arbitration, about how low an offer can you get away with. And the Packers were clearly looking to save space.

But there is not much doubt that most of the League sees a limit on his ceiling.

He definitely played better than Saturday, but that wasn't saying a whole lot. I think his offer was also an indication about how the Packers view the position. That they could slide a variety of people there and get the job done.

If EDS signed elsewhere, would you have expected the Packers to take more O lineman? Or maybe Schwartzkopf, the center from Alabama? I am not sure he would have changed his draft, except perhaps at the end.

[Patler]

The most telling evidence in my mind that the Packers aren't that into EDS was his lowest qualifying RFA tender. I recall most fans expected his tender to be much higher than it was based on his play, so I think this is where the perception came from that EDS sucks. Seems like the market has been pretty terrible for all RFA's this year.

But then how do you justify that with the Packers doing nothing to replace him?

The low offer didn't lead me to any conclusion one way or another; except that the Packers were willing to let the market determine his value. Had he received an offer (which is getting to be less and less likely for RFA's) all the Packers had to do was match it. How much do teams really know about EDS? There is very limited game tape available on him, at either guard or center. The risk that someone would offer a significant contract that the Packers would have been unwilling to match was probably very small. The low tender was just a good business risk, I think, for a guy as little-known as EDS.

[3irty1]

But then how do you justify that with the Packers doing nothing to replace him?

The low offer didn't lead me to any conclusion one way or another; except that the Packers were willing to let the market determine his value. Had he received an offer (which is getting to be less and less likely for RFA's) all the Packers had to do was match it. How much do teams really know about EDS? There is very limited game tape available on him, at either guard or center. The risk that someone would offer a significant contract that the Packers would have been unwilling to match was probably very small. The low tender was just a good business risk, I think, for a guy as little-known as EDS.

I can't justify it but I've also been saying I don't think he's a liability and am happy with him at center and the position as a whole after the draft. I was just making the argument against him so we have something to talk about.

[wist43]

Drafting for need is a fools errand. Ask Mike Sherman.

If there are questions about Schwenke (and there would seem to be since he was a 3rd round prospect) and he can't play Guard, that adds to the risk. Wasn't he the one who played fast and quick but lacked power?

No one here is dealing with the full set of data. No one has interviewed any of the players. No one has access to a criminal background checks or drug tests. No one has talked privately to the kid's college coaches.

Remember the Jerry Jones photo with his draft board in the background? There were very few players with 3rd round grades or better compared to the list from draft sites. What if Schwenke graded out as a 5th round prospect to the Packers. To take him means leaving other, better players on the board?

Last word. Each poster will remember the one pick they called and wished the Packers selected. But will any of them remember the other five they were wrong about? No one forgets Ted's errors.

I agree max - I am not advocating picking a player who isn't worthy of being drafted at that spot. And I agree with you about the "we just don't know" aspect of armchair GM'ing.

We can't sit down and look these kids in the eye - suppose Schwenke sat down with Campen and MM in an interview room at the combine, and all Schwenke could talk about was partying with his posse. We would never hear about it, but TT would simply take him off his board - and we'd scream bloody murder b/c TT passed on a quality center.

That said, just about everybody had the guys we've been talking about rated in the range we could have grabbed them; and, as it turns out other teams plucked those players off the board while TT kept marching backward.

[Patler]

I was just making the argument against him so we have something to talk about.

:lol: :lol: I've been known to do that myself from time to time!!

[woodbuck27]

What happens if Tretter turns out to be better than Schwenke? What happens if Tretter turns out to be better than Schwenke, and Johnson is more than a camp body? Certainly not outside of the realm of possibility. Thompson has a way of surprising us. Jolly, Bishop, Sitton, Lang, Newhouse, etc. were all 4th round or later selections who turned out to be better than many players at their positions that went ahead of them and were projected to be better. I'd also add House. I think his future looks brighter than many of the corners drafted a round or two before him, provided he gets over his injury.

Yea >>> TT has a way of surprizing us 'too many times', in this last draft.

That's the focus and core of the issue of our debate.

Mere 'more bodies' in TC 'that met TT's standards' vs 'Overall quality expert judged talent' >>> in TC.

A better calculated >>> coulda ... woulda ... shoulda.

PACKERS !

[woodbuck27]

This is the same argument I made in the other thread.

None of you homers could put a dent in the argument - all you could do was try to change the criteria and accuse me of having unreasonable expectations. I don't think the argument I have laid out above is unreasonable.

We have holes in our lineups on both sides of the ball, and we are lacking effective depth. Rodgers is covering for a lot of sins - including a dismal defense. TT addressed 2 holes (DE and RB), and ignored several others (LT, C, NT, ILB - we need help everywhere).

Bottom line, I don't think this draft improved us appreciably b/c TT refused to pull the trigger on guys like Schwenke, Williams, Patton, Lemonier, Winters, et al. Instead we got the lightest T in the draft, the circus freak from Colorado, and a LB'er that ran a blistering 4.91, 40.

We need quality, not quantity, out of the draft. Go out and round up your quantity from undrafted street FA's - guys like Tramon Williams and Will Shields were outstanding finds.

Are we possibly perceived as:

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTXZBedTBQr6LLxFdRQOOl99YcYge8_l oiWEbt9RFbtgCt-uJou

The Indians

OR

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRlznix6iDxsuyf6fWFWhFYKSek8N1eN WEd7X9k87nSMB-rAAtfOQ

The Cowboys

I'm 'just' a plain Ole >>> Green Bay Packer fan.

[3irty1]

This is the same argument I made in the other thread.

None of you homers could put a dent in the argument - all you could do was try to change the criteria and accuse me of having unreasonable expectations. I don't think the argument I have laid out above is unreasonable.

We have holes in our lineups on both sides of the ball, and we are lacking effective depth. Rodgers is covering for a lot of sins - including a dismal defense. TT addressed 2 holes (DE and RB), and ignored several others (LT, C, NT, ILB - we need help everywhere).

Bottom line, I don't think this draft improved us appreciably b/c TT refused to pull the trigger on guys like Schwenke, Williams, Patton, Lemonier, Winters, et al. Instead we got the lightest T in the draft, the circus freak from Colorado, and a LB'er that ran a blistering 4.91, 40.

We need quality, not quantity, out of the draft. Go out and round up your quantity from undrafted street FA's - guys like Tramon Williams and Will Shields were outstanding finds.

Its hard to put dents in hot air wist. The argument that Ted passed on legit starters to draft a bunch of JAGs, spitballs, bums, camp fodder, and unrosterable players is based on the assumption that a guy sitting in a bomb shelter with a tin foil hat on can better evaluate players via youtube than a NFL GM with a team of NFL scouts can do full time. We know two things for sure. 1. Ted has a lot more information than us. 2. He disagrees with you unless you think he's deliberately drafting bartenders in which case that's an argument I'd like to hear. Saying most of them won't make the team and writing off the ones you don't like just because you don't like them is par for the course on an internet forum but its not rational and won't convince anyone.

[smuggler]

One thing with regard to centers - how many centers were taken in the draft? There were ~120 starting centers in college ball, just among division I clubs. How many were drafted? 6? 7?

Probably 20 tackles were drafted. You have a lot of experienced college centers to consider outside of the drat. It's not just Green Bay that doesn't value the center spot - it's the whole league (outside of Dallas - LOL)

That doesn't even take into account that there are a number of guards that are undersized at ~300# that went undrafted because of it, but could potentially make very effective centers if they're athletic enough.

Bigger pool of players + less players snagged = less premium on the position in the draft

Edit:

Total number of centers drafted: 6

Travis Frederick (reach/overdraft in round 1 by Cowpokes) - Nope
Khalid Holmes (reach/overdraft in round 4 by Colts) - Too soon for TT
Barrett Jones (drafted in projected round [4] but also came at less than full health after torn ACL) - Probably not on TT's board due to injuries to both knees.
TJ Johnson (drafted in projected round [7] but was taken 4th from last) - TT probably expected him to go undrafted, as most did.
Eric Kush (drafted in projected round [6] but suffered an ankle injury in the E/W Shrine game and looked bad after returning) - I would have been fine with this pick, but even still, it's a 6th round center.
Brian Schwenke (value pick by Titans in 4th) - I think we probably would have swung the bat there, but he went 2 picks before our 4th rounder. Them's the breaks. We got Bhaktiari. Hopefully, that's to our benefit.

[wist43]

Its hard to put dents in hot air wist. The argument that Ted passed on legit starters to draft a bunch of JAGs, spitballs, bums, camp fodder, and unrosterable players is based on the assumption that a guy sitting in a bomb shelter with a tin foil hat on can better evaluate players via youtube than a NFL GM with a team of NFL scouts can do full time. We know two things for sure. 1. Ted has a lot more information than us. 2. He disagrees with you unless you think he's deliberately drafting bartenders in which case that's an argument I'd like to hear. Saying most of them won't make the team and writing off the ones you don't like just because you don't like them is par for the course on an internet forum but its not rational and won't convince anyone.

It just statistics 3irty1...

I've broken down the numbers - the numbers do not support TT's spitball approach. If TT were a late round God, we'd have a roster bursting at the seams with players that necessarily have to move on to other teams b/c we can't afford them.

If you can't assail my argument, I'd appreciate it if you didn't assail me.

Thanks

[3irty1]

It just statistics 3irty1...

I've broken down the numbers - the numbers do not support TT's spitball approach. If TT were a late round God, we'd have a roster bursting at the seams with players that necessarily have to move on to other teams b/c we can't afford them.

If you can't assail my argument, I'd appreciate it if you didn't assail me.

Thanks

I apologize you're right I shouldn't have said that.

In regards to the stats though I think there is a more scientific way to get your results.

Nobody expects a GM to do better late than he would early... that much is obvious. The best way to determine his use of draft picks in the late rounds is to assign a value to each draft slot (lets say points from a trade chart) a player was taken in and find out the total points/player in rounds 1-3 and the points/player in rounds 4-7. Does that makes sense?

[woodbuck27]

Its hard to put dents in hot air wist. The argument that Ted passed on legit starters to draft a bunch of JAGs, spitballs, bums, camp fodder, and unrosterable players is based on the assumption that a guy sitting in a bomb shelter with a tin foil hat on can better evaluate players via youtube than a NFL GM with a team of NFL scouts can do full time. We know two things for sure. 1. Ted has a lot more information than us. 2. He disagrees with you unless you think he's deliberately drafting bartenders in which case that's an argument I'd like to hear. Saying most of them won't make the team and writing off the ones you don't like just because you don't like them is par for the course on an internet forum but its not rational and won't convince anyone.

I do not have to defend Wist43 as he's doing very well.

This isn't about Wist43.This is all about (for) you Packer fan to simply consider.

I respect you as a solid poster here 3irty1:

All the same....

Your miscast in terms of your intelligence and argument and as a result. Ignoring the simple TRUTH that Wist43 has presented to you and others here over... and over ... and over ... time and again.

I'm astounded at how very strong his argument is in this respect. That you and others here are missing it. His argument is 'in fact' beyond solid. His argument is soundly based; concrete in it's construction.

Your not being objective;cannot be so, 'if your a HOMER'. I'm not decided as to that and you 3irty1. If your 'a homer' so be it. That's all well and fine. That will lend to you a certain passion. If your 'a Homer' ... it's not your fault. There is nothing wrong with being a die hard dedicated fan of any team.... even to the degree of being 'labeled'... a homer.

Your more than likely aware of this. Intelligence may be clouded or tainted in 'HOMERISM. A homer has difficulty being objective. A 'Homer' lacks a certain insight into really examining an issue; that might reflect poorly on the team in any manner. ie The Green Bay packers GM, Ted Thompson.

Homers somehow actually believe that any critique of Ted Thompson is akin to blasphamy.

Maybe that's hardly 'the case' and you? You may simply be entertained by argument? I hope not as this is rather ... harmless intended debate. Argument ends up with damaged feelings.

You simply appear to me like some here.

Those posters that actually believe that TT is infallable. Such a position isn't intelligently defenseable, because of 'certain prejudice and/or bias' towords anything Green Bay Packer. It has to be in a certain order. Anything else is mocked, ridiculed or otherwise attacked with course insult.

Thus such a position or HOMERISM will 'as a bottom line'. Only disrespct an offending position.

Can you possibly admit that there can be a better way than Ted Thompson's way in specific determination? Unless the answer is a definite 'YES' or positive. That's hardly a reasonable position.

I'm not here to debate the above. I simply toss that down as it's merited; in accordance to ultimately reaching a proper and mutual resolution/agreement.

Did Ted Thompson conduct himself (with his draft team) strategically best in this last draft.

My position is clear that he didn't for very obvious reasons. Ted Thompson could have done better.

Again... I believe today that he realizes that as a fact...a TRUTH.

GO PACK GO !

[cheesner]

Its hard to put dents in hot air wist. The argument that Ted passed on legit starters to draft a bunch of JAGs, spitballs, bums, camp fodder, and unrosterable players is based on the assumption that a guy sitting in a bomb shelter with a tin foil hat on can better evaluate players via youtube than a NFL GM with a team of NFL scouts can do full time. We know two things for sure. 1. Ted has a lot more information than us. 2. He disagrees with you unless you think he's deliberately drafting bartenders in which case that's an argument I'd like to hear. Saying most of them won't make the team and writing off the ones you don't like just because you don't like them is par for the course on an internet forum but its not rational and won't convince anyone.
Good stuff!


I
Your not being objective;cannot be so, 'if your a HOMER'. I'm not decided as to that and you 3irty1. If your 'a homer' so be it. That's all well and fine. That will lend to you a certain passion. If your 'a Homer' ... it's not your fault. There is nothing wrong with being a die hard dedicated fan of any team.... even to the degree of being 'labeled'... a homer.


Ahh, same old Woodbuck. Nice to check back in once and a while.

You are correct! 'Homerism' can cloud judgement. A worse 'cloud' is blind hatred/prejudice. It becomes quite evident when a poster, for whatever reason, hates our GM and will find fault in whatever he does. Some posters become even delusional, thinking they understand football and the draft better than a team of professionals who have access to 100x more information than the average fan. GMs make mistakes - of course. THere is a risk/reward value to every pick they make. Thompson understands this, not every poster does.

[SnakeLH2006]

Holy fucking shit...this may be the most cynical/skeptical thread I seen yet on here? Maybe cuz Wist posted so much....I don't mind ya dude...but fuck get your dick sucked...Christ man....Why so serious? Snake gets blown/anal with sex almost daily with the hottest girl you will never know. It's great. My girl loves my every fiber and loves herself cuz we treat each other great. Life is good. Holy shit you guys just pick apart EVERY fiber of BS.

Ya we didn't win the SB this year...but fuck ya we got some great picks...with needs taken care of other than OL IMO. Why the bitching? We got a great DE....a tandem at RB to take over....what else did we need? Quit masterbating so much and put down the coffee for fuck's sake.

The Packers are gonna win 11 games yearly for the next 7 years under ARod and CMatty. We had a great fucking draft...every team has a weakness. IMO it's OL..but hey with more RB's with talent...we're fine.

Snake made banana bread...Who wants a fucking slice? Jesus fucking Christ.

[Bretsky]

Holy fucking shit...this may be the most cynical/skeptical thread I seen yet on here? Maybe cuz Wist posted so much....I don't mind ya dude...but fuck get your dick sucked...Christ man....Why so serious? Snake gets blown/anal with sex almost daily with the hottest girl you will never know. It's great. My girl loves my every fiber and loves herself cuz we treat each other great. Life is good. Holy shit you guys just pick apart EVERY fiber of BS.

Ya we didn't win the SB this year...but fuck ya we got some great picks...with needs taken care of other than OL IMO. Why the bitching? We got a great DE....a tandem at RB to take over....what else did we need? Quit masterbating so much and put down the coffee for fuck's sake.

The Packers are gonna win 11 games yearly for the next 7 years under ARod and CMatty. We had a great fucking draft...every team has a weakness. IMO it's OL..but hey with more RB's with talent...we're fine.

Snake made banana bread...Who wants a fucking slice? Jesus fucking Christ.

Bretsky only wants banana bread if Snake has two hotties grinding while feeding each other the bread. Bretsky thinks Snake might be able to make that happen, and Bretsky will b happy to show up when he does.

[woodbuck27]

Good stuff!



Ahh, same old Woodbuck. Nice to check back in once and a while.

You are correct! 'Homerism' can cloud judgement. A worse 'cloud' is blind hatred/prejudice. It becomes quite evident when a poster, for whatever reason, hates our GM and will find fault in whatever he does. Some posters become even delusional, thinking they understand football and the draft better than a team of professionals who have access to 100x more information than the average fan. GMs make mistakes - of course. THere is a risk/reward value to every pick they make. Thompson understands this, not every poster does.

If your pointing your finger at me and that 'hatred agenda'.

Your far far 'out to lunch' Packer fan. Don't label me with such garbage. It's lovely to see you pop in for a visit and please come back more often. The thing is>>>like in life we have to work things out to get to the real matters at hand.

Try not to take anything out of context. It's about as bad as carying a stupid rumor.

You need to read the whole script to be >>> fair to yourself. I'm just telling you this straight up and in fairness to you. There been alot going on here since the draft. A whole lot of learning I hope. None of that goes down on Ted Thompson.

I can say today that I'm just about at the point where I can feel comfortable that Ted Thompson has had an outstanding draft.

Perfect >>> Nothing is perfect >>> yet TT and his team's draft was very solid.

GO PACKERS >>> GO Ted Thompson!

With me it's always been just about this as the bottom line:

The Green Bay Packers.

[Fritz]

Holy fucking shit...this may be the most cynical/skeptical thread I seen yet on here? Maybe cuz Wist posted so much....I don't mind ya dude...but fuck get your dick sucked...Christ man....Why so serious? Snake gets blown/anal with sex almost daily with the hottest girl you will never know. It's great. My girl loves my every fiber and loves herself cuz we treat each other great. Life is good. Holy shit you guys just pick apart EVERY fiber of BS.

Ya we didn't win the SB this year...but fuck ya we got some great picks...with needs taken care of other than OL IMO. Why the bitching? We got a great DE....a tandem at RB to take over....what else did we need? Quit masterbating so much and put down the coffee for fuck's sake.

The Packers are gonna win 11 games yearly for the next 7 years under ARod and CMatty. We had a great fucking draft...every team has a weakness. IMO it's OL..but hey with more RB's with talent...we're fine.

Snake made banana bread...Who wants a fucking slice? Jesus fucking Christ.

The persona is hilarious. Snake probably watches Packers' games with his girl - some girl - on her knees in front of him.

And if you can make Bretsky's wish come true, Snakey, then there are probably more than a few Rat posters who would also like to be a part of such goings-on.