Positions upgraded/Positions downgraded

[Patler]

In another thread, rbaloha said this:


Bottom Line: EDS is a big upgrade over Saturday.

This got me to thinking. Too often we as fans want TT to swing for the fences and hit homeruns when fixing roster problems. But, roster building is more about making net improvements, hitting singles and doubles if you will, than it is about hitting homeruns.

With that in mind, compared to the roster that played last year, where do you expect the Packers to be better, and where might they have lost ground and be worse? In my opinion:

Better

Running back - Lacy and Franklin can be big upgrades.
Left Tackle - Bulaga will be better than Newhouse.
Center - EDS over Saturday.
Right Tackle - Barclay is better than last year, or beaten out by someone better than him.
Def End - Jones over Worthy.
MLB - adding Bishop back into the mix makes the position better.
Kicker - Crosby gets over the yips, or is replaced. Either way, better than last year.


Possibly Better

Safety - Burnett continues to improve along with at least one of the younger guys.
OLB opposite Matthews - if Perry plays better than Walden and young guys improve.
TE - Finley over himself (I'm expecting a better all-around year from him). Quarless back as an all-around TE, and a better #2 TE receiver than anyone from last year. Crabtree was a fan favorite, but Mulligan will likely be a better blocker, assuming he makes the team.


Worse, or Possibly Worse
OLB opposite Matthews - if Perry shows no feel for the position and young guys are blah.
Fullback - Kuhn gets old, but who cares?

Normally, we could point to the losses of guys like Jennings and Woodson, but neither one contributed much last year, so when comparing this year to last, they are not significant losses on the field.

Injuries can change all of this, but at many positions, shouldn't this team be better than the one that played in 2012?

[Zool]

Newhouse*

[Patler]

Newhouse*

Ya, I don't see the problem! :whist: :whist: :whist:
(Damn, I must be getting old! :lol:)

[Zool]

Ya, I don't see the problem! :whist: :whist: :whist:
(Damn, I must be getting old! :lol:)

If Craig Newsome was playing tackle, that would explain a lot. Or was it Ozzie?

[Patler]

If Craig Newsome was playing tackle, that would explain a lot. Or was it Ozzie?

From the criticism on here, it could have been either!

[Pugger]

In another thread, rbaloha said this:



This got me to thinking. Too often we as fans want TT to swing for the fences and hit homeruns when fixing roster problems. But, roster building is more about making net improvements, hitting singles and doubles if you will, than it is about hitting homeruns.

With that in mind, compared to the roster that played last year, where do you expect the Packers to be better, and where might they have lost ground and be worse? In my opinion:

Better

Running back - Lacy and Franklin can be big upgrades.
Left Tackle - Bulaga will be better than Newhouse.
Center - EDS over Saturday.
Right Tackle - Barclay is better than last year, or beaten out by someone better than him.
Def End - Jones over Worthy.
MLB - adding Bishop back into the mix makes the position better.
Kicker - Crosby gets over the yips, or is replaced. Either way, better than last year.


Possibly Better

Safety - Burnett continues to improve along with at least one of the younger guys.
OLB opposite Matthews - if Perry plays better than Walden and young guys improve.
TE - Finley over himself (I'm expecting a better all-around year from him). Quarless back as an all-around TE, and a better #2 TE receiver than anyone from last year. Crabtree was a fan favorite, but Mulligan will likely be a better blocker, assuming he makes the team.


Worse, or Possibly Worse
OLB opposite Matthews - if Perry shows no feel for the position and young guys are blah.
Fullback - Kuhn gets old, but who cares?

Normally, we could point to the losses of guys like Jennings and Woodson, but neither one contributed much last year, so when comparing this year to last, they are not significant losses on the field.

Injuries can change all of this, but at many positions, shouldn't this team be better than the one that played in 2012?

This can't be too hard... :lol:

[hoosier]

Downgrade at WR. With Jennings missing (out or a shadow of his former self) for most of the year, the offense struggled to produce big plays last year. With Jennings now gone, things won't get better quickly. And if one of the big three goes down for any length of time, the offense loses a lot of the variability that makes it so hard to prepare for. In fact, I think they need Boykin or one of the late round draft picks to emerge as players before the offense can return to its accustomed levels of productivity. Given the shuffling of the OL, the loss of Jennings and the possibility that Rodgers feels pressure to live up to his new contract, I expect the offense to struggle--at least initially and maybe longer--in 2013.

[Brandon494]

Better:

TE- I think the improved running game will help Finley's game as well, hopefully he'll pull a James Jones and fix his dropping problem. Hopefully Quarless will be able to come back strong as well.

CB- I think we also will be improved at CB even after losing CW. Remember Tramon Williams shoulder still wasn't at 100% last season, Davon House wasn't healthy all season after having a promising training camp, Hayward should only get better, and I like the kid they drafted from Iowa. Oh yea and don't forget about Sam Shields who bounced back strong last season after a sophomore slump.

MLB- Bishop was our 2nd best defensive player in 2011, having him back will be huge. Also don't get about Terrell Manning who was sick last season resulting in him losing 15 pounds. I don't know if he'll get much playing time but he'll be able to replace DJ Smith as a backup.

DL- Jones brings some pass rushing and MAYBE Jolly shows from flashes.

OLB- We get Nick Perry back, this guy stud. He was a rookie playing a new position last season and people expected him to play like an all pro. Unlike Walden this guy can run with Kaepernick.

OL- Moving our best two lineman to the left, upgrade at center, and should be better at run blocking

HB- Obviously


Worse:

We get worse at WR after losing Greg Jennings. Obviously losing a #1 WR hurts but luckily for us we have #12 at QB so I don't see us dropping off a bit plus we should see more running this year anyway.

Keep up the good work TT!

[RashanGary]

Solid way to look at it. We haven't really lost anyone of mention who was around last year, nor are we aging at any meaningful positions. All we've done is add.

Sort of building on your model, in a more broad way, you could take the collective youth on our team weighted against the collective aging population and get at least one more "likely to excel in there." I don't know if any one player is likely enough to take a step to list individually, but we were a young team last year, and history tells us, the Packers do develop talent. *See Lang, Shields, Tramon, JJones, Finley (breaking out in his 2nd/3rd years while being a bum in his first), Rodgers, possibly others. As young as we are, the likelyhood of our team taking big steps (collectively, even in areas not big enough for you to list. I can't give one name. Could be Mike Neal, Mike Daniels, Greg VanRotten, MD Jennings, Davon House or any other list of names who could just pop to a different level.

I do think Bulaga on the left (assuming there is a running game to slow down the pass rush a little) is his best spot. He's a decent run blocker (gobs better than Newhouse), and I think will look even more decent against smaller players. He's a decent pass protector, and I remember him getting beat a little worse inside than outside, so moving to the left shouldn't add to a previously foreseen issue and might even accentuate his overall skillset a little better. Probably the biggest gain in having Barclay on the right with Bulaga on the left is we rid ourselves of possibly our only glaring run blocking liability. We have 5 guys who can get their hands on the guy in front of them and keep them there. If we run better, that will slow down the entire pass rush and change the coverages.

A possible trend is for the Packers to run the ball better early, then start really opening up as the season goes on. If AR goes off, especially as the season goes on, people will probably site Newhouse's pass protection as a huge part of the issue. I think the more likely reason for the passing game going off is the combination of better run blocking and better running backs. That will change the way DL approach our line and change the way DB's/LB's defend our offense. That, IMO, is the single biggest thing that can change to help our offense. If defenses have to play us differently, AR will go off. If our pass protection is slightly better and that's the only change, AR will still be stuck with the ball in his hand with no where to go and DL pinning their ears back.

If you had to take one thing affecting our passing game and list it as the biggest change from 2011 to 2012, I think the obvious answer is how defenses approached our offense. If we were to go through Newhouse pass pro from 2011 to 2012 and do that across the line, I don't think the collective loss from 2011 to 2012 is even close to indicative of the actual drop off we had. But if you examine with an eye that has watched a lot of football and you look at the defenses we were facing in 2011 vs 2012, I think you get a much more realistic indicator of what affected AR's game.

[Brandon494]

Downgrade at WR. With Jennings missing (out or a shadow of his former self) for most of the year, the offense struggled to produce big plays last year. With Jennings now gone, things won't get better quickly. And if one of the big three goes down for any length of time, the offense loses a lot of the variability that makes it so hard to prepare for. In fact, I think they need Boykin or one of the late round draft picks to emerge as players before the offense can return to its accustomed levels of productivity. Given the shuffling of the OL, the loss of Jennings and the possibility that Rodgers feels pressure to live up to his new contract, I expect the offense to struggle--at least initially and maybe longer--in 2013.

We add two pretty good RBs to help take some of the pressure off Rodgers and remember we didn't have Jennings for 7 games last season and still went 5-2. Also the shuffling of the OL should only help Rodgers since our best two O-lineman will be blocking his blind side. I think our offense will do fine and I do believe Boykin can make a solid #4 WR with Finley also getting time at the position.

[Patler]

Downgrade at WR. With Jennings missing (out or a shadow of his former self) for most of the year, the offense struggled to produce big plays last year. With Jennings now gone, things won't get better quickly.

Downgrade at depth, perhaps. But as to the onfield performers 2012 vs. 2013, there isn't really much of a change because Jennings wasn't a factor. It can even be argued that there isn't much of a change in WR depth compared to 2012, because of the season Jennings had last year.

Assuming Jennings to be healthy, his loss is certain. But comparing roster today with game rosters in 2012, not much of a change.

[Patler]

Worse:[/B]

We get worse at WR after losing Greg Jennings. Obviously losing a #1 WR hurts but luckily for us we have #12 at QB so I don't see us dropping off a bit plus we should see more running this year anyway.

Keep up the good work TT!

For all practical purposes, they didn't have Jennings last year.
If Bishop were traded, would linebackers be weaker than in 2012? No, because Bishop wasn't there in 2012.

Almost the same with Jennings. They played without him a good portion of the season, and with him at reduced effectiveness for most if not all of the games he did play. Losing him entirely is not a huge change from what he provided in 2012.

[Patler]

To add another wrinkle in the evaluation:

Is there anyone who had a season in 2012 which he is unlikely to repeat in 2013:

James Jones, perhaps.
Hayward or Shields, perhaps. We really don't know what their standard level will be. Especially Shields who has fluctuated a lot.

[KYPack]

Safety and FB, I'm still worried.

Maybe we should get rid of the FB position and just go two RB's.

Kuhn got real fugly by the SF game.

WR could be bad, but I don't think it will.

[smuggler]

Jones won't score 14 TDs, but he should still get around 700 yards receiving, which is decent.

[Patler]

Jones won't score 14 TDs, but he should still get around 700 yards receiving, which is decent

No, probably not 14 TDs again, just like Nelson didn't repeat the 15 he had in 2011. Doesn't matter who catches the TDs, just so together they are getting 40 or so. Might be Finley's turn to lead in TD catches this year, or Cobb's turn.

[Freak Out]

I think the RBs get a bunch more this year....air and ground.

[red]

i think the WR position should stay about the same this year, as long as the big 3 stay healthy

i'm expecting a big jump in production from cobb, it seemed at times that he was already becoming the go-to-guy last year

i'm thinking cobb takes over the #1 this year

[Bretsky]

i think the WR position should stay about the same this year, as long as the big 3 stay healthy

i'm expecting a big jump in production from cobb, it seemed at times that he was already becoming the go-to-guy last year

i'm thinking cobb takes over the #1 this year


And our WR's staying healthy is a big if; last year we were good enough there to withstand in injury. Are we this year ?

To me that is why you clearly have to say we have downgraded at WR

[Joemailman]

On paper, WR is a downgrade. However, if they have a little more luck on the injury front than last year, you may not notice much. I think Boykin has a chance to be a pretty good possession receiver. Huge hands and runs pretty good routes.

[red]

And our WR's staying healthy is a big if; last year we were good enough there to withstand in injury. Are we this year ?

To me that is why you clearly have to say we have downgraded at WR

yeah, not as deep for sure our #1-4 this year as not as good as last years #1-4

but i do think our #1-3 can be just as good as last years 1-3

know what i mean?

and yeah, that 4th guy is a huge change this year, but keep in mind, he's our #4 wr

[hoosier]

For all practical purposes, they didn't have Jennings last year.
If Bishop were traded, would linebackers be weaker than in 2012? No, because Bishop wasn't there in 2012.

Almost the same with Jennings. They played without him a good portion of the season, and with him at reduced effectiveness for most if not all of the games he did play. Losing him entirely is not a huge change from what he provided in 2012.

Correct, Jennings was mostly absent last year, and what happened was that the offense struggled for much of the year. The most noticeable difference was the inability to consistently generate big plays. Jennings's injuries probably were not the only reason, but I think the offense did struggle to adjust after having relied for so long on Jennings to make big plays and create better match ups for the other receivers. Maybe Finley will step up and start to realize some of his potential, but even if he does he is not going to stretch the field the way Jennings did before last year.

Maybe the emergence of a legitimate running game will now play that role of opening things up for guys like Nelson and Cobb to make explosive plays. But it may also take Lacy and Franklyn time to learn the system, and running backs--even good ones--often aren't ready to contribute regularly from the start of their first season.

[call_me_ishmael]

I agree with basically everything Patler said. I think they will be better this year. I'm really, really, really hoping Jolly has something left in the tank and can stay clean. He was a very solid 3-4 end.

[Patler]

yeah, not as deep for sure our #1-4 this year as not as good as last years #1-4

Actually, their 1-4 at WR might be the same as it was for much of last year when Jennings was out and Driver was the #5.

[Bretsky]

Actually, their 1-4 at WR might be the same as it was for much of last year when Jennings was out and Driver was the #5.


If they lose their top WR for an extended period of time next year....that is when we find out there is quite a difference at the position between this yr and last

If they all stay healthy...we r fine

Of course one can make the argument the improvement at RB should make up for the above weakness at WR if say, Cobb goes down for 10 games. That would be a viable argument

[Patler]

If they lose their top WR for an extended period of time next year....that is when we find out there is quite a difference at the position between this yr and last

How will it be any different than if they had sustained that injury during the 8 games that Jennings didn't play in last year, or the several others during which he was very limited? For much of last season their top four actually available for the games were Nelson, Jones, Cobb and Boykin. Could be the same in 2013, or better if Boykin is beaten out by someone better, or Boykin himself improves.

For all practical purposes, the Packers only had Jennings for about three or four weeks last year.

[RashanGary]

How will it be any different than if they had sustained that injury during the 8 games that Jennings didn't play in last year, or the several others during which he was very limited? For much of last season their top four actually available for the games were Nelson, Jones, Cobb and Boykin. Could be the same in 2013, or better if Boykin is beaten out by someone better, or Boykin himself improves.

For all practical purposes, the Packers only had Jennings for about three or four weeks last year.

The odds of Boykin not being better in year 2 are slim. He has no character problems to speak of. By all accounts, he's a hard worker. He's a natural, savvy player. He has ideal size/strength. Him not being better would be a big surprise. He'd have to go outside his character or outside of the common sense, expected career trend to not be better. He was the 6th WR kept last year. He wasn't kept just to fill a number. They like him. And, like you said, they played him over Driver. Even more proof they liked him (even if it was in part ST's)

[wist43]

We're going to be better thru maturation, flipping the line, adding Jones, and the RB's should be an upgrade. On the downside we did lose two very good players - starters. I think Cobb will cover the Jennings loss, but Woodson will be sorely missed. He was a leader, and an excellent football player. He may have been hurt last year, and we didn't have him on the field, but his presence was felt in the locker room.

The loss of Woodson and the defense is where the trouble lies. Capers is still our DC, and on any given week he is entirely capable of throwing a turd out there like the one that completely stunk up our season last year. Communication in the back end improved, but that's not saying much; we went from routine catastrophies, with receivers running wide open through our secondary, to only occasional breakdowns. Overall coverage was average, and with little pressure up front our young secondary could be had.

We didn't address our problem on the nose. Pickett can't take every snap, and Raji is miscast there... add to that Capers lust to jump into a nickel on 2nd and 5 or 6. He can get away with shit like that when Blaine Gabbert is the opposing QB (although I think Jax torched us thru the air last year, didn't they??)... but, Kapnaerwurst is another deal. There's no excuse for what Capers allowed to happen against SF, or the dismal results he's been producing for 2 years now.

We needed more front seven help overall... Perry coming back help's, and I'm hoping he takes a big step. To me, Perry is the key. If he can step up and become a legit 10-15 sack guy, then we're on to something. I hate our ILB's... I wanted to get more size, speed, and athleticism there - 1 more year with Hawk.

[packrulz]

I agree, not much was done for depth on defense. Pickett is getting old, Woodson is gone, Neal, Perry, Worthy, Bishop, & Tyrone Williams have all been hurt, so the defense is a huge question mark. However, if M3 is serious about running the ball and eating up the clock, our defense will get off the field more and be more rested.

[Iron Mike]

i think the WR position should stay about the same this year, as long as the big 3 stay healthy

i'm expecting a big jump in production from cobb, it seemed at times that he was already becoming the go-to-guy last year

i'm thinking cobb takes over the #1 this year


http://www.packers.com/news-and-events/article-1/Randall-Cobb-pushes-toward-boiling-point/a66abc38-169b-4ec6-b235-aa7ba9fa3b62

[Iron Mike]

Keep up the good work TT!

I'm hoping you didn't just facilitate another page and a half diatribe from Woodbuck.... :(

[Fritz]

The odds of Boykin not being better in year 2 are slim. He has no character problems to speak of. By all accounts, he's a hard worker. He's a natural, savvy player. He has ideal size/strength. Him not being better would be a big surprise. He'd have to go outside his character or outside of the common sense, expected career trend to not be better. He was the 6th WR kept last year. He wasn't kept just to fill a number. They like him. And, like you said, they played him over Driver. Even more proof they liked him (even if it was in part ST's)

In a rare move, the Packers kept a 5th receiver who had long ago maxed out his potential and did not play ST.

I believe that the loss of Jennings hurts, but the overall core of receivers will be stronger.

I also think ST will be loaded this year.

[Pugger]

No, probably not 14 TDs again, just like Nelson didn't repeat the 15 he had in 2011. Doesn't matter who catches the TDs, just so together they are getting 40 or so. Might be Finley's turn to lead in TD catches this year, or Cobb's turn.

Yes, we have to remember Jordy wasn't 100% for stretches last season too.

[Pugger]

I agree, not much was done for depth on defense. Pickett is getting old, Woodson is gone, Neal, Perry, Worthy, Bishop, & Tyrone Williams have all been hurt, so the defense is a huge question mark. However, if M3 is serious about running the ball and eating up the clock, our defense will get off the field more and be more rested.

But if we get Perry, Bishop, Williams and eventually Worthy back healthy that would make our D much better than it was last season plus the addition of Datone Jones.

[Pugger]

http://www.packers.com/news-and-events/article-1/Randall-Cobb-pushes-toward-boiling-point/a66abc38-169b-4ec6-b235-aa7ba9fa3b62

I wish they would have said who the other guys were who worked out with Cobb. It isn't easy to tell from that one photo.

[Pugger]

I'm hoping you didn't just facilitate another page and a half diatribe from Woodbuck.... :(

If Woodbuck goes into one of his TT diatribes I don't read it all. He isn't a fan of TT and that's his prerogative. I just happen to disagree with his opinion about our GM.

[smuggler]

I wouldn't be surprised if they redshirted Worthy this season because of his knee injury. Sad, but probably for the best.

[Fritz]

I agree. I think they'll PUP him and see what his status and the health of the d-line - look like six weeks in.

Maybe he can use the time to get healthy and add some muscle.

[RashanGary]

I agree. I think they'll PUP him and see what his status and the health of the d-line - look like six weeks in.

Maybe he can use the time to get healthy and add some muscle.


This does seem like the way to go. Even if he's close for the start, I think having a chance to really build up his strength is going to be better than hurrying him back. He'd have 6 weeks on PUP, then another 3 to practice. That gives him 9 weeks into the season (plus a bye week?)

If we have a quality, quick, fast, strong big guy come in half-way through the season, it's not going to hurt. It's like adding fresh legs at the RB position. Those guys wear down. It would be nice to work him in, 10 snaps, 14, 18, 22, 26. . . . Then he could be a nice half-time player for us down the stretch. That's about the time Jones will probably need to get off his legs a little. Raji, Pickett, everyone could use a little break heading into the post-season.

You can definitely envision a scenario where Worthy helps us down the stretch. He has the disadvantage of coming of a season ending injury, but hte advantage of only plyaing half-a-season and not being relied on as a starter.

He has enough talent, I think he'd help. And in the long run, if he got to finish the season healthy, and go into next offseason with a little momentum, a little experience, it would be good for him too. Recovery helps, but there is something to be said for playing ball too. You don't want a big gap where a guy is not in football shape.

[Fritz]

Are Packer fans the only fans who are forced to contemplate as pleasant fantasies storylines that consistently involve injured players coming back at mid-season to help the team?

[call_me_ishmael]

Assuming we stay pretty healthy, I think the players that will dictate how far the Packers go are:

Brad Jones
Johnny Jolly
Nick Perry
Some Safety

We need to be more stout defensively. I think the offense will be prolific.

[Fritz]

I think Nick Perry is key to the defense. And Mike Neal's continued good health.

[pbmax]

And Mike Neal's continued good health.

You just like living on the edge, don't you?

[run pMc]

Assuming we stay pretty healthy, I think the players that will dictate how far the Packers go are:

Brad Jones
Johnny Jolly
Nick Perry
Some Safety

We need to be more stout defensively. I think the offense will be prolific.

I'd add Desmond Bishop to this list. I'd also add whomever plays RB and James Jones -- Cobb and Nelson will be good, but Jones' production may tell the story.

Ah screw it, who am I kidding...the key to this team is Rodgers plain and simple.

[Fritz]

You just like living on the edge, don't you?


It's my own inverted way of protecting his health.

It's the same as when I bet against the Packers: I hope I will lose my bet and the Packers will win.