2013 Packers Starting Defensive Line: Who Ya Got?

[pbmax]

I am putting it down in writing.

Pickett starts the season backing up Raji at NT. Someone will claim the RDE from him in base Oakie. Eagle Oakie probably keeps Pick at NT, Raji would stay at 3 tech.

But base D snaps will flow to Jones (or possibly Neal) from Pickett and not from Wilson.

What say you?

[3irty1]

I expect so many combos for different downs and distance that its tough call to make. Last 3 years the thing to do on 1st and 10 (aka our starters) was trot out a nickle with our fatties in the middle: Raji and Pickett. This allowed us to keep Woodson in the slot. With Woodson gone, and Brad Jones emerged as a cover linebacker I think we'll see more of a 3-4 filled with pass-stopping personnel in situations where we used to have a 2-4 full of run-stuffing personnel. My guess is that line will consist of Wilson/Neal, Raji, Jones/Daniels. Pickett will still be there to spell Raji and on the field with Raji in situations that call for serious beef.

[Brandon494]

Raji, Picket, Jones is what I would put out there but we have a couple of options at D-line so who really knows. I could also see Neal, Raji, Jones if they want to keep Raji at NT. I really hate the Pickett at DE and would not mind at all if he does backup Raji at NT to keep them both fresh.

[hoosier]

Pickett/Raji/Jones. I don't think they really use the 3-4 enough to use Pickett as Raji's backup at NT. If Raji needs more rest, he can rotate with Neal and Jones in the nickel.

[Mazzin]

Personally, I'd love to see Dial Tone, Raji (pick backup) and M. Neal. I feel we would get a good amount of pressure from our d line if we field these ruffians.

[Fritz]

Personally, I'd love to see Dial Tone, Raji (pick backup) and M. Neal. I feel we would get a good amount of pressure from our d line if we field these ruffians.

On first down and ten, how about Neal, Raji, Wilson?

[pbmax]

Personally, I'd love to see Dial Tone, Raji (pick backup) and M. Neal. I feel we would get a good amount of pressure from our d line if we field these ruffians.

Yeah, I forgot the option to bench BOTH Wilson and Pickett and replace with Jones and Neal.

[jklowan]

Yeah, I forgot the option to bench BOTH Wilson and Pickett and replace with Jones and Neal.

no one think Jolly is in the mix, look out for the purple dank machine

[Joemailman]

Pick, Raji, Jones. I'd be worried about Neal, Raji, Jones getting gashed in the run game.

[Mazzin]

I don't see why neal, and Jones couldn't play the run??? Raji no worries there

[Mazzin]

Also fritz with all the love Datone got after being drafted, I would personally be a little bothered if he didn't get the start, bump the package apparently he has to much talent to be off the field.

[rbaloha1]

IMO if the packers d-line is going to have success jones needs to start pronto and boyd and jolly also need to be part of the rotation pronto.

[Iron Mike]

Personally, I'd love to see Dial Tone....

That's pretty effin' funny. Repped.

[RashanGary]

Ultimately, it's about getting our guys in positions to succeed. Pickett is a good player, but he's a 2-gap run stopper. I think he has to play NT. Considering we play so little 3-4, I think Pick should be our starting NT in the 3-4 package.

Jones(Wilson in run situations)/Pick/Neal (our best run stopper with two guys that can press the pocket on the ends)

In the 2-4
Raji/(Daniels, Jones, Neal) rotation


I like this because.

A. Pickett is in a spot that accentuates his skillset
B. Raji gets some rest and is in a spot where he's created the most impact
C. It keeps our young guys in one-gap roles where I think they'll excel

[smuggler]

When you say base defense, I take it to mean the defense that's most often used. In that case, I'll guess Jones/Raji/Neal or just Jones/Neal or just Jones lol

[wist43]

Jones and Raji.

How often are 3 DL going to be on the field together?? We've only got 1 guy that can 2-gap - Picket. 2nd and 6 and Capers is in a 2-4 nickel.

Masochistically, I just got done watching lowlights of the 49er game.

I don't know how you overcome the debacle that was that game. Capers wasn't just clueless about the pistol, he was clueless about how to stop any facet of the Niners attack. We got run over, run thru, passed thru, passed over, and blocked clear off the field on just about every snap after the first 10 minutes of the game.

I like a lot of the players, but Capers is misusing just about everybody, and I don't expect that to change. Jones will help, but we desperately needed an 'immovable object' type NT to anchor the line, but TT traded back and picked the persian guy instead.

It's up to Capers to find a way to use our defensive linemen to the best of their ability.

I would argue, given the players we have to work with; given their strengths and weaknesses; and the strengths and weaknesses of our LB'ing corp; that we should be using more 4-3/4-2 fronts. We're very pedestrian at LB after Matthews, and hopefully Perry; and given that Pickett is our only reliable 2-gap DL, going to a 4 man line would give us more size on the field, and allow our defensive linemen to do what they do best - penetrate, control 1 gap, disrupt. Perry would be at LDE, Jones, Raji, whoever... you could stand Perry up, send Matthews or not, etc.

I'd much rather mix 4 defensive linemen looks in with the base 3-4, than to go small with the 2-4.

[wist43]

Ultimately, it's about getting our guys in positions to succeed. Pickett is a good player, but he's a 2-gap run stopper. I think he has to play NT. Considering we play so little 3-4, I think Pick should be our starting NT in the 3-4 package.

Jones(Wilson in run situations)/Pick/Neal (our best run stopper with two guys that can press the pocket on the ends)

In the 2-4
Raji/(Daniels, Jones, Neal) rotation


I like this because.

A. Pickett is in a spot that accentuates his skillset
B. Raji gets some rest and is in a spot where he's created the most impact
C. It keeps our young guys in one-gap roles where I think they'll excel

As I've said, Jones will help - but the drafting of Jones, and only Jones as a serious addition to the front 6, necessarily means that Capers is going to play just as much, if not more, 2-4.

We needed at least 1 more fire hydrant type NT. Brandon Williams fit the bill, TT said, '...mmmm, nah'... we can't go big, b/c we don't have enough bigs.

The only way I see out of the maze, is to play more four man lines... something Capers would never do. I do have faith that he'll be gone after this season though... so that's the good news :)

[Fritz]

Also fritz with all the love Datone got after being drafted, I would personally be a little bothered if he didn't get the start, bump the package apparently he has to much talent to be off the field.

Well, the guy's a rook and I think he's more of a pass rusher; thus I'd like to see the team keep him fresh for passing downs. And while I'm thinking this way, I'd like to change my line to Neal-Pickett-Wilson. That's the best combo to play two gap and stop the run.

[pbmax]

When you say base defense, I take it to mean the defense that's most often used. In that case, I'll guess Jones/Raji/Neal or just Jones/Neal or just Jones lol

For the purposes of the poll, I am sticking with the Packer designation of base as 3-4, though your point about what get used most often is a fine one.

I am mainly interested in who people thing Jones (or Neal, or someone) is going to be taking snaps from. So far, that candidate is Wilson.

[rbaloha1]

Jones and Raji.

How often are 3 DL going to be on the field together?? We've only got 1 guy that can 2-gap - Picket. 2nd and 6 and Capers is in a 2-4 nickel.

Masochistically, I just got done watching lowlights of the 49er game.

I don't know how you overcome the debacle that was that game. Capers wasn't just clueless about the pistol, he was clueless about how to stop any facet of the Niners attack. We got run over, run thru, passed thru, passed over, and blocked clear off the field on just about every snap after the first 10 minutes of the game.

I like a lot of the players, but Capers is misusing just about everybody, and I don't expect that to change. Jones will help, but we desperately needed an 'immovable object' type NT to anchor the line, but TT traded back and picked the persian guy instead.

It's up to Capers to find a way to use our defensive linemen to the best of their ability.

I would argue, given the players we have to work with; given their strengths and weaknesses; and the strengths and weaknesses of our LB'ing corp; that we should be using more 4-3/4-2 fronts. We're very pedestrian at LB after Matthews, and hopefully Perry; and given that Pickett is our only reliable 2-gap DL, going to a 4 man line would give us more size on the field, and allow our defensive linemen to do what they do best - penetrate, control 1 gap, disrupt. Perry would be at LDE, Jones, Raji, whoever... you could stand Perry up, send Matthews or not, etc.

I'd much rather mix 4 defensive linemen looks in with the base 3-4, than to go small with the 2-4.

Another standing ovation:clap::clap: At least you are not an apologist for the pathetic performance.

Voted with the majority on d-linemen starting.

[Fritz]

For the purposes of the poll, I am sticking with the Packer designation of base as 3-4, though your point about what get used most often is a fine one.

I am mainly interested in who people thing Jones (or Neal, or someone) is going to be taking snaps from. So far, that candidate is Wilson.

I think - or maybe hope - that it will be Neal taking snaps not from Wilson in the base, but from Raji/Pickett or whoever plays end. I'd love to see a couple of ends emerge so that Raji and Pickett can split time at the nose. Maybe on passing downs Raji could play end, with Jones and/or Neal.

[rbaloha1]

I think - or maybe hope - that it will be Neal taking snaps not from Wilson in the base, but from Raji/Pickett or whoever plays end. I'd love to see a couple of ends emerge so that Raji and Pickett can split time at the nose. Maybe on passing downs Raji could play end, with Jones and/or Neal.

If Neal is getting increased pt it means the draft pics and Jolly are busts.

Why all the Neal love for a fake tough guy?

[Fritz]

I don't think Mike Neal is a "fake tough guy" - I think he's a good pass rusher and a good player, and if he can stay healthy (a big if, I know) I think he will have more sacks this year than Jones will. I think he'll have a damn fine year.

But we'll see.

[pbmax]

My concern with Jones simply replacing Wilson is that the only way that improves the D line and front seven is if he makes enough plays that he can attract a double team. Wilson doesn't make a lot of big plays but he can man the position versus the run than Raji at DE and probably equal to Pickett at DE. There isn't a big upside though it might be enough to allow better ILB play. Remember, Matthews had few problems teaming with Wilson on run D which makes me think its more Walden than Wilson in 2011.

Wilson wasn't the guy getting burned by the 49ers.

Jones moving Raji inside in base Oakie and perhaps spelling Wilson in Eagle Oakie (Raji at 3 tech, Pick at 1 tech, Jones/Wilson/Neal at 5 tech) gives Raji and Pick fewer snaps and only 2 spots to play.

I interpret the drafting of Jones as partially a way to fulfill that desire.

But it could be Ted grabbing the best guy and it happened he wasn't a NT type. And so this year will be a single position upgrade, Wilson for Jones/Neal.

[pittstang5]

Don't know, don't care. I just want to see Kaeper-bitch lying on his back...alot during the season opener.

[Brandon494]

IMO if the packers d-line is going to have success jones needs to start pronto and boyd and jolly also need to be part of the rotation pronto.

Yea a late 5th round pick and a guy who hasn't played in 3 years is exactly what our defense needs to be successful. :?

[rbaloha1]

Yea a late 5th round pick and a guy who hasn't played in 3 years is exactly what our defense needs to be successful. :?

What are the other options?

[Mazzin]

That's pretty effin' funny. Repped.
Not exactly sure where I read it, but I'm certain that I did, but his nickname with a few teammates at UCLA was DialTone Jones.

[Mazzin]

I kind of agree with Brandon as far as not expecting to much out of these to fellas, yet I agree with rb that there aren't many other options for a Rotation. I personally trust our coaches to be the judge and won't question it either way. Well until the first game that is :)

I'm excited to check out our new guys, I really wanted the pack to take a look at Kyle Love from N.E. but the jags snatched him up real fast. Does anyone else think he would have been any good with us, and before ya mention it yes I know about he diabetes and weight loss. Didn't the same thing happen with Cutler?

[wist43]

My concern with Jones simply replacing Wilson is that the only way that improves the D line and front seven is if he makes enough plays that he can attract a double team. Wilson doesn't make a lot of big plays but he can man the position versus the run than Raji at DE and probably equal to Pickett at DE. There isn't a big upside though it might be enough to allow better ILB play. Remember, Matthews had few problems teaming with Wilson on run D which makes me think its more Walden than Wilson in 2011.

Wilson wasn't the guy getting burned by the 49ers.

Jones moving Raji inside in base Oakie and perhaps spelling Wilson in Eagle Oakie (Raji at 3 tech, Pick at 1 tech, Jones/Wilson/Neal at 5 tech) gives Raji and Pick fewer snaps and only 2 spots to play.

I interpret the drafting of Jones as partially a way to fulfill that desire.

But it could be Ted grabbing the best guy and it happened he wasn't a NT type. And so this year will be a single position upgrade, Wilson for Jones/Neal.

Jones is a huge upgrade over Wilson, but again it comes down to how Capers will use him and the others. It's all on Capers.

Due to Jones's outstanding first step, I fully expect teams will have to account for his quickness into gaps off the snap. For that reason, using Jones on stunts with Perry, Raji, Neal, and Daniels should be very effective as teams will have to account for Jones first.

That said, we still have the the same problems we had last year. We get better with Perry coming back, but our ILB's and sub-package guys are the very definition of pedestrian - and since our defensive linemen are more likely to be charged with penetrating as opposed to eating up blocks, and since we don't have LB's that can stack and shed - we're going to get a lot more of what we got last year.

Over the course of season, and going up against power teams, we needed at least one more capable big man and we didn't get one. I fully expect Capers to simply run more of what he ran last year, only expecting different results. That won't work.

The problem is Capers, and as long as he's our DC it is next to impossible to evaluate the players. As I've said, if I'm BJ Raji?? I'm outta there the second the clock strikes 0:00 in the final game.

[rbaloha1]

Jones is a huge upgrade over Wilson, but again it comes down to how Capers will use him and the others. It's all on Capers.

Due to Jones's outstanding first step, I fully expect teams will have to account for his quickness into gaps off the snap. For that reason, using Jones on stunts with Perry, Raji, Neal, and Daniels should be very effective as teams will have to account for Jones first.

That said, we still have the the same problems we had last year. We get better with Perry coming back, but our ILB's and sub-package guys are the very definition of pedestrian - and since our defensive linemen are more likely to be charged with penetrating as opposed to eating up blocks, and since we don't have LB's that can stack and shed - we're going to get a lot more of what we got last year.

Over the course of season, and going up against power teams, we needed at least one more capable big man and we didn't get one. I fully expect Capers to simply run more of what he ran last year, only expecting different results. That won't work.

The problem is Capers, and as long as he's our DC it is next to impossible to evaluate the players. As I've said, if I'm BJ Raji?? I'm outta there the second the clock strikes 0:00 in the final game.

Braddah -- you are on roll!

IMO the getting bigger more powerful players was not adequately addressed but Boyd (check-out those legs) and Jolly certainly help.

Initally thought Raji had a chance to Sapp like -- similar type build and skill set. Agree that DC is killing Raji's career. The guy is not a 2 gapper and is too often getting crushed.

ILB are not helpful since they can not directly take-on blockers consistently -- Bishop helps in this area and maybe another Bishop type emerges.

My bigger concern is all eleven on the same page against modern attacks -- every game in which the Packers get beat-up defensively there are comments about miscommunications. Plus there is a lack of trust that players will follow assignments consistently which forced Woodson to free lance.

[pbmax]

Jones could provide those kinds of upgrades at Wilson's DE spot. But that was not the major problem with the D line. I am just not sure that is the biggest area of need. Stunting might help in pass rush, but how many rush stunts did you see in the NFL last year? I can't recall any (not counting pass rush stunt on a draw or something).

Packers averaged a 22nd ranked run D at the left tackle and end (right side of D), were 12th in the middle (far higher than I imagined) and 25th against right tackle and end. This according to Football Outsiders.

So I think greatest area needing improvement is still LDE, but the margin might be smaller than my memory suggests.

If we look game by game, might see how much Perry versus Walden affected that.

[wist43]

Jones could provide those kinds of upgrades at Wilson's DE spot. But that was not the major problem with the D line. I am just not sure that is the biggest area of need. Stunting might help in pass rush, but how many rush stunts did you see in the NFL last year? I can't recall any (not counting pass rush stunt on a draw or something).

Packers averaged a 22nd ranked run D at the left tackle and end (right side of D), were 12th in the middle (far higher than I imagined) and 25th against right tackle and end. This according to Football Outsiders.

So I think greatest area needing improvement is still LDE, but the margin might be smaller than my memory suggests.

If we look game by game, might see how much Perry versus Walden affected that.

I am referring to a four man front mainly in pass rush situations, but that doesn't mean you can't play a little more base 4-3. My main goal would be to get Raji off the nose, to keep him fresher throughout the game and season. You'd have to take it on a game-by-game basis, depending on who you're facing.

TT and MM have a very cavalier attitude toward the defensive front. Pickett is gonna fade, and Raji might be gone next year... and all TT does is bring in Boyd?? Good grief - we're supposed to be a 3-4 defense and we can't even begin to field 3-4 personnel.

Since we don't have 3-4 personnel, we might as well admit it and show more 4-3 looks.

As for our flanks getting gashed time and again... without tape to look at (my DVR died and I lost all the games I had recorded) I'm just going by memory; but I do remember a lot of it coming against Capers's gimmick fronts. Raji and Pickett/Daniels/ Neal inside, Perry/Walden and Matthews outside, and Jones/Hawk/McMillian/et al roving behind Raji and Pickett - at times it looked like no one had any gap responsibility.

Teams can block down on the edge and our pedestrian ILB's can't read/react/disengage/make the play - I don't think that changes much. I think Perry is a lot better than Walden, and Jones is much better than Wilson, but that's not near enough.

Certainly not enough to overcome Capers being our DC. We have to endure one more year with him, and I fully expect him to be fired about 48 hours after our season ends. After Capers is gone, then we can begin to look at rebuilding the defense.

[pbmax]

wist, You have probably posted this earlier, but a quick search isn't working.

Who plays SLB, WLB and who are the two DEs in your 4-3?

[pbmax]

In this article: http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-draft-pick-jones-ready-to-make-a-point-7c9vst4-207973221.html

Ty Dunne clearly envisions Jones major role being next to Raji in the 2-4 nickel.

Going to be interesting camp to see where he works out. I just don't see pass rush as the need from him. Of course it would be welcome, but run D needs the help more.

[rbaloha1]

In this article: http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-draft-pick-jones-ready-to-make-a-point-7c9vst4-207973221.html

Ty Dunne clearly envisions Jones major role being next to Raji in the 2-4 nickel.

Going to be interesting camp to see where he works out. I just don't see pass rush as the need from him. Of course it would be welcome, but run D needs the help more.

Jones is the type of d-lineman equipped to play the newer offenses.

IMO sacks are overrated -- its more about collapsing the pocket, hits and hurries.

[wist43]

In this article: http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-draft-pick-jones-ready-to-make-a-point-7c9vst4-207973221.html

Ty Dunne clearly envisions Jones major role being next to Raji in the 2-4 nickel.

Going to be interesting camp to see where he works out. I just don't see pass rush as the need from him. Of course it would be welcome, but run D needs the help more.

That's the first thing I thought of too... I fully expect a shit ton of 2-4 this year with Jones and Raji lined up over the guards and Matthews and Perry coming off the edge - yeah, I hate that idea. How many games have we watched where we get into the 4th quarter and Matthews and Raji are both completely gassed?? Beyond that, it's an easy read for the OL and QB.

As for run D... again, it comes down to Capers. If he's jumping to that formation on 2nd and 6 - which I fully expect him to do every chance he gets - then we're in big trouble. I think Jones could hold up against the run okay, but not full time. If he's a full time 5T, I think he'll wear down. I'd much rather see him in a rotation that seeks to maximize his quickness.

I'm always saber rattling for more front seven help, but TT keeps throwing square pegs at round holes... it's up to Capers to find a way to get all the miscast toys functioning as an effective attack unit. Capers has done nothing but make a mess of things the last 2 years.

My fear is that Capers is going to misuse Jones the same way he's misused Raji.

[Patler]

1st and 10 against a team with no particular predeliction to pass:

Jolly - Raji - Wilson

[3irty1]

I'll be interested to see what Daniels role is this season. Last season as a rookie he proved he could consistently win one-on-one scenarios and despite his size and the fact that rookie DT's almost always suck at playing the run, he earned a spot in the goal-line D. I think Daniels could actually be what we all hope Neal will be.

I agree with Wist that it seems like many of our D-line are ideally 3-techs in a 4-3. Daniels, Neal, Worthy, Boyd, and Jolly would all be most at home as 3-tech, probably another reason we've historically used the 2-4 so much since its basically the same as a 4-2-5 with OLB playing DE with their head's up.

[rbaloha1]

Daniels needs to bulk up.

[Cleft Crusty]

I can dance to Wilson Pickett, but for the Packers' sake, if they see those two on the field together, well, that's a bad sign - they won't slow that CK mustang down.