Read-Option QBs

[ThunderDan]

Interesting article from Bleacher Report.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1644413-are-read-option-quarterbacks-destined-for-shorter-nfl-careers

[rbaloha1]

Excellent article that try its best to be neutral.

Provides good ammo for the naysayers and good ammo that this offense is legitimate and not a fad.

Okay naysayers -- go for it!

[MadScientist]

The top pocket passers will have longer careers than the top option QB's. The reason is that they will lose a step or two after 30, making the option less of an option. You won't likely see them playing at 35-40, unlike Brady, and Manning are, Favre did and hopefully Rodgers will. If this offense is not defeated by scheme, I would expect the QB's careers to parallel that of a running back, so by the time they hit 30 they are done, at least as far as running the option. The best may convert to a pocket passer after that point.

[Brandon494]

The one thing that Rodgers needs to work on that those other three guys were great at is getting rid of the ball quicker. He holds onto the ball way too long at times looking for the big play, he needs to realize that most of the time a sack can kill a drive. Manning might be the best ever at it, that guy rarely ever gets sacked.

[ThunderDan]

The one thing that Rodgers needs to work on that those other three guys were great at is getting rid of the ball quicker. He holds onto the ball way too long at times looking for the big play, he needs to realize that most of the time a sack can kill a drive. Manning might be the best ever at it, that guy rarely ever gets sacked.

One thing I do know that kills drives are INTs.

Here are the first five years starting:
Rodgers - 45 INTs
Brady - 66 INTs
Favre - 77 INTs
Manning - 100 INTs (of course he got to start for the Colts)

[ThunderDan]

If you pick the five best INT years of those 4 QBs you get.

Brady - 44 Ints
Rodgers - 45 Ints (only five years to choose from)
Manning - 50 Ints
Favre - 60 Ints (best 5 of 20)

[Brandon494]

Those stats are kinda unfair for Manning since he started right away as a rookie while Rodgers sat on the bench for 3 years learning the offense. You are right about INTs killing driving but a lot of times Rodgers could easily dump it off for a short gain instead of always looking for the long ball.

[ThunderDan]

Those stats are kinda unfair for Manning since he started right away as a rookie while Rodgers sat on the bench for 3 years learning the offense. You are right about INTs killing driving but a lot of times Rodgers could easily dump it off for a short gain instead of always looking for the long ball.

I know I commented in the game day threads that Finley was open a lot over the middle short and Rodgers would go elsewhere with the ball.

[pbmax]

I know I commented in the game day threads that Finley was open a lot over the middle short and Rodgers would go elsewhere with the ball.

THIS.

Of course, Fin wasn't helping his own case. But Rodgers also looked off Cobb and Nelson a few times for moderate gains.

[rbaloha1]

Why are the naysayers not responding with gimmick offense, fad, defenses will figure it out, etc. etc.

Very strange (minus big font):huh:

[ThunderDan]

Why are the naysayers not responding with gimmick offense, fad, defenses will figure it out, etc. etc.

Very strange (minus big font):huh:

Because the board has learned that there is no reason to have a discussion with you.

[rbaloha1]

Because the board has learned that there is no reason to have a discussion with you.

Thanks Sherlock:violin:

[bobblehead]

Excellent article that try its best to be neutral.

Provides good ammo for the naysayers and good ammo that this offense is legitimate and not a fad.

Okay naysayers -- go for it!

Its a fad. The final 4 teams this season will be at least 3 pocket passers (Manning, Brady, Rodgers and Ryan). Last season the final 4 were Manning, Flacco, Ryan, Kapernick.

Maybe a gimmick guy surprises this year again and makes it, but long term success in the NFL is done through a pocket passer and running effectively.

[Brandon494]

Its a new day and age, you have young rising stars in RGIII, Luck, Wilson, Kapernick, and Newton who can all run the ball. I believe more teams are looking more at QBs who are mobile out of the pocket as evidence in this years draft with EJ Manuel being the only QB taken in the 1st round.

http://walterfootball.com/draft2014QB.php - List of the top QB prospects for next years draft, it you notice a lot of them are dual threats including the top 3 prospects.

[Upnorth]

If you are a pocket passer behind a poor oline you get hit hard a lot as well, so to me oline has a high impact on qb survivability whether they are a pocket passer or read option.

As an infuriating aside when watching the kapernick highlight reel against the packers it amazaes me how often we had a person in an area to contain or limit ck and he just tured his back to the ball. How could they do that over and over, aaarrrgghh.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Its a new day and age, you have young rising stars in RGIII, Luck, Wilson, Kapernick, and Newton who can all run the ball. I believe more teams are looking more at QBs who are mobile out of the pocket as evidence in this years draft with EJ Manuel being the only QB taken in the 1st round.

http://walterfootball.com/draft2014QB.php - List of the top QB prospects for next years draft, it you notice a lot of them are dual threats including the top 3 prospects.

Mobile QBs are great, no doubt about it. I think there's a big difference in a mobile QB and one who will run the read-option. I don't believe Luck or Wilson could or would want to do that offense. Kap and RGIII are more suited for it. I'm not sure how successful Cam would be with a read-option. He's got size but doesn't have the speed and agility that Kap and RGIII have. I don't see him play enough (other than highlights) so I really can't say.

[Brandon494]

Mobile QBs are great, no doubt about it. I think there's a big difference in a mobile QB and one who will run the read-option. I don't believe Luck or Wilson could or would want to do that offense. Kap and RGIII are more suited for it. I'm not sure how successful Cam would be with a read-option. He's got size but doesn't have the speed and agility that Kap and RGIII have. I don't see him play enough (other than highlights) so I really can't say.

Cam Newton imo would be the best at it because of his size and he has the speed/agility running a 4.5 40. I don't think RGIII should run it, hes just too injury prone, plus he is a hell of a passer which some people don't give him credit for. I live in Richmond, VA so unfortunately I'm forced to watch every single Redskins game. I hated the way Mike Shananhan used RGIII last season, image us running the option with Rodgers :roll:. Yes RGIII is that good and after what happened last season I guarantee you won't see Shanahan using him that way again. Honestly I don't believe teams are going to start using the read option, I think the 49ers just did it last season because Kapernick is young and still learning how to read defenses. I do believe teams are leaning more towards mobile QBs though over pocket passers.

[ThunderDan]

I thought RGIII got hurt on a regular drop back pass not on the read option. He got hit by Ngata after he got flushed from the pocket and was running down field. Maybe I am not remembering it corretly.

[Zool]

I thought RGIII got hurt on a regular drop back pass not on the read option. He got hit by Ngata after he got flushed from the pocket and was running down field. Maybe I am not remembering it corretly.

The first injury late in the season was on a run when his leg whipped weird off a body during a hit.

[Brandon494]

I thought RGIII got hurt on a regular drop back pass not on the read option. He got hit by Ngata after he got flushed from the pocket and was running down field. Maybe I am not remembering it corretly.

The Ngata hit was the main hit that injured his knee but he also took a lot of big hits running the read option which isn't smart when you have a guy with that much talent who is injury prone. I don't mind him running out of the pocket if no one is open but no need to draw up plays when you know hes going to take a big hit.

[ThunderDan]

The first injury late in the season was on a run when his leg whipped weird off a body during a hit.

Just watched on youtube. Washington was in a shotgun trying to tie the game late against Balt. RGIII scrambled left ran down the field cut back toward the middle, was tackled and bounced into Ngata.

[Cleft Crusty]

RO QBs are just not going to last that long if they are asked to run it a lot.

[MadScientist]

Why are the naysayers not responding with gimmick offense, fad, defenses will figure it out, etc. etc.

Very strange (minus big font):huh:
It is not nearly the gimmick that the wildcat was. That said, defenses will get better at dealing with it, with the whole off season to prepare. That combined with more risk to the most important player on the team will make the use of the read-option decline. It will be featured here and there on a team that has a young and very athletic QB that they are not convinced will be a true franchise QB. If the guy looks like he can succeed in a more standard offense they will switch, otherwise they will use him up and draft someone else.

[bobblehead]

Its a new day and age, you have young rising stars in RGIII, Luck, Wilson, Kapernick, and Newton who can all run the ball. I believe more teams are looking more at QBs who are mobile out of the pocket as evidence in this years draft with EJ Manuel being the only QB taken in the 1st round.

http://walterfootball.com/draft2014QB.php - List of the top QB prospects for next years draft, it you notice a lot of them are dual threats including the top 3 prospects.

Just a few years ago a very good friend of mine (who is black) declared that the era of the pocket passer was over. Jamarcus Russell had just been drafted first and guys like Vick were getting major props. I pointed out to him who the final four were that year and he said "things are about to change".

I know we desperately want a new era of athletic QB's (who are black except for Tebow and Crouch), but pocket passers rule the day. McNabb was a scrambler young and didn't win. He became a passer later and made 4 NFCC and a superbowl.

Don't misunderstand me, its not about black and white. Kapernick has a GUN. He needs to learn to play QB in the NFL as a pocket passer who runs when he needs to. Lotta good young athletic QB's have potential, but at the end of the day, the recipe for success hasn't really changed all that much.

[bobblehead]

Cam Newton imo would be the best at it because of his size and he has the speed/agility running a 4.5 40..

Cam did not run a 4.5. I watched it live on ESPN (at the combines anyway)

[bobblehead]

I don't think RGIII should run it, hes just too injury prone, plus he is a hell of a passer which some people don't give him credit for. I live in Richmond, VA so unfortunately I'm forced to watch every single Redskins game. I hated the way Mike Shananhan used RGIII last season, image us running the option with Rodgers :roll:. Yes RGIII is that good and after what happened last season I guarantee you won't see Shanahan using him that way again. Honestly I don't believe teams are going to start using the read option, I think the 49ers just did it last season because Kapernick is young and still learning how to read defenses. I do believe teams are leaning more towards mobile QBs though over pocket passers.

But the rest of your post was spot on.

[Brandon494]

Cam did not run a 4.5. I watched it live on ESPN (at the combines anyway)

My bad, 4.59 40 time 8-)

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/cam-newton?id=2495455

[rbaloha1]

Its a fad. The final 4 teams this season will be at least 3 pocket passers (Manning, Brady, Rodgers and Ryan). Last season the final 4 were Manning, Flacco, Ryan, Kapernick.

Maybe a gimmick guy surprises this year again and makes it, but long term success in the NFL is done through a pocket passer and running effectively.

This is what i was waiting for.

Running effectively is possible from the read option. Throwing from the pocket is also possible.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Cam Newton imo would be the best at it because of his size and he has the speed/agility running a 4.5 40. I don't think RGIII should run it, hes just too injury prone, plus he is a hell of a passer which some people don't give him credit for. I live in Richmond, VA so unfortunately I'm forced to watch every single Redskins game. I hated the way Mike Shananhan used RGIII last season, image us running the option with Rodgers :roll:. Yes RGIII is that good and after what happened last season I guarantee you won't see Shanahan using him that way again. Honestly I don't believe teams are going to start using the read option, I think the 49ers just did it last season because Kapernick is young and still learning how to read defenses. I do believe teams are leaning more towards mobile QBs though over pocket passers.

Good point on RGIII with the size. Wholeheartedly agree on the mobile QB thought as well.

[3irty1]

I think its the talent, not the read-option that is revolutionary here. We've never seen athletes like Cam Newton, RGIII, Kap, and Wilson that were this talented as passers. All of a sudden there are 4 young guys better than Mike Vick ever was. If College keeps churning out these kinds of guys, of course coaches will find ways to use them.

[RashanGary]

I think its the talent, not the read-option that is revolutionary here. We've never seen athletes like Cam Newton, RGIII, Kap, and Wilson that were this talented as passers. All of a sudden there are 4 young guys better than Mike Vick ever was. If College keeps churning out these kinds of guys, of course coaches will find ways to use them.

This makes way too much sense. I'll put my eggs in this basket.

[Fritz]

If these type of QB's prove as maddening to try to get a clean hit on as Fran Tarkenton was, then this thing will be around for awhile.

[rbaloha1]

I think its the talent, not the read-option that is revolutionary here. We've never seen athletes like Cam Newton, RGIII, Kap, and Wilson that were this talented as passers. All of a sudden there are 4 young guys better than Mike Vick ever was. If College keeps churning out these kinds of guys, of course coaches will find ways to use them.

The revolution of the read-option is here. The arrogant NFL maintained you can not run this college stuff in our league.

[MadScientist]

The revolution of the read-option is here. The arrogant NFL maintained you can not run this college stuff in our league.
This year will be a better indication of how long the read-option will last. More than just the Packers have sent their defensive staff to a college to learn how to stop it. It will also be interesting to see what Washington does with RGIII when he comes back from his injuries.

If the read-option proves harder to stop than the normal NFL offenses, one change that could happen is the QB position may change from the franchise guy that you have for 15 years to a good player that you have for 5-7 years and then discard because he loses a step, like a running back.

[Cleft Crusty]

If these type of QB's prove as maddening to try to get a clean hit on as Fran Tarkenton was, then this thing will be around for awhile.

except that Fran wasn't trying to rush the ball - he was trying to escape getting creamed in the 'pocket' - but almost always he was looking to pass. Running backs typically don't last that long, and some of these RO QBs aren't as sturdy or elusive as RBs. Too many hits and they are out. The threat to run, and the ability to run here and there is a great weapon, but the actual use of the weapon will shorten its lifespan.

[Cleft Crusty]

one change that could happen is the QB position may change from the franchise guy that you have for 15 years to a good player that you have for 5-7 years and then discard because he loses a step, like a running back.

or gets clobbered. But then that short-term franchise guy better pick up the offense pretty quick.

[pbmax]

or gets clobbered. But then that short-term franchise guy better pick up the offense pretty quick.

Given the types of offenses in college, the sheer number of available athletic passers will probably keep this option attractive. Because unlike a franchise statuesque QB, there will be another mobile guy available in the draft every year.

One reason for the proliferation of offenses in colleges is lack of time. The Air Raid was specifically developed (though not the only reason) with the thought of being able to install the ENTIRE offense in three days. And what time you had left could then be used to perfect the things you learned in the first 3 days.

So enormously complicated and exacting offenses (West Coast Offense hello) were at a disadvantage when it would take until the second year to be proficient. That got worse in college when practices were limited to 20 hours a week.

[rbaloha1]

Given the types of offenses in college, the sheer number of available athletic passers will probably keep this option attractive. Because unlike a franchise statuesque QB, there will be another mobile guy available in the draft every year.

One reason for the proliferation of offenses in colleges is lack of time. The Air Raid was specifically developed (though not the only reason) with the thought of being able to install the ENTIRE offense in three days. And what time you had left could then be used to perfect the things you learned in the first 3 days.

So enormously complicated and exacting offenses (West Coast Offense hello) were at a disadvantage when it would take until the second year to be proficient. That got worse in college when practices were limited to 20 hours a week.

These offenses were around long before any of this stuff.

The offenses were designed to give rosters with lesser size and athletic the ability to compete against traditional football powers.

There is not enough personnel for three yards and a cloud of dust offenses or wishbone offenses. Plus the big schools used to monopolize these players with 120 scholarships.

[Fritz]

except that Fran wasn't trying to rush the ball - he was trying to escape getting creamed in the 'pocket' - but almost always he was looking to pass. Running backs typically don't last that long, and some of these RO QBs aren't as sturdy or elusive as RBs. Too many hits and they are out. The threat to run, and the ability to run here and there is a great weapon, but the actual use of the weapon will shorten its lifespan.

I was only using Tarkenton as an example of how the RO QB's might lengthen their playing time - by developing the ability to avoid taking a big hit. I watched and was maddened by Tarkenton for years (because I was a Packer fan); he had a way of escaping the big hit that I sorely wished they'd lay on him.

Whether a QB is looking to run or looking to escape getting creamed in the pocket, the ability to avoid taking clean shots will prolong your career. Tarkenton was maddeningly good at that.

I hated that bastard.

[pbmax]

These offenses were around long before any of this stuff.

The offenses were designed to give rosters with lesser size and athletic the ability to compete against traditional football powers.

There is not enough personnel for three yards and a cloud of dust offenses or wishbone offenses. Plus the big schools used to monopolize these players with 120 scholarships.

Of course there are more factors. That's why I said time was one reason.

But if competing against superior talent was the only factor, then teams would be using less non-traditional offenses today than before, because the talent gap has narrowed (scholarship limits), passing game rule changes, practice limits and the proliferation of talent outside of Ohio, Pennsylvania and Texas. In other words, people would be reverse engineering the Badgers under Alvarez, who took coal to Newcastle and beat the traditional powers with his running game and defense (unless you were Michigan then by rule the Badgers lost just to keep order in the Universe).

Instead, despite the leveling, the number of alternate offenses has proliferated and has incorporated older option concepts. But even those older concepts are given a new spin. I believe there is only one team running a true triple option run offense in D1 right now.

Tommie Frazier never got the chance to run a pro offense. Tebow barely got one.

The primary factor pushing teams to innovate in the passing game is the increased reward versus the decreased risk compared to decades past. And the increased focus on passing in college has in turn produced more QBs with phenomenal athletic talent who are also accomplished passers. Perhaps not schooled as before, but talented and trained arms none-the-less.

Their numbers and passing training make the likelihood of NFL teams committing to something other than traditional drop back passing more likely.

[bobblehead]

This is what i was waiting for.

Running effectively is possible from the read option. Throwing from the pocket is also possible.

won't argue the fact that if a guy is an exceptional throwing from the pocket QB who has a good running game and great D to boot that his team will be very successful.

I am saying that a guy that runs the read option more than 4 times a game won't likely be successful because that will mean they likely don't pass well from the pocket.

[bobblehead]

I think its the talent, not the read-option that is revolutionary here. We've never seen athletes like Cam Newton, RGIII, Kap, and Wilson that were this talented as passers. All of a sudden there are 4 young guys better than Mike Vick ever was. If College keeps churning out these kinds of guys, of course coaches will find ways to use them.

Double props....but I am not sold on Newton or Kapernick yet. Kap took the world offguard, and Newton hasn't impressed me as much as most. RGIII could be the next great thing though imho.

[bobblehead]

The offenses were designed to give rosters with lesser size and athletic the ability to compete against traditional football powers.

.

You have hit on it here. Gimmick offenses are there so lesser teams can compete by doing....something gimmicky. If you have the talent to run it and pass it effectively in the traditional manner, its still the best route to success. If you do not....then you run the wildcat and the read option. SF had a great D and good running game, but needed the extra umph at QB to make the big game. RO gave them that last year. I suspect it won't be enough this year.

[pbmax]

Double props....but I am not sold on Newton or Kapernick yet. Kap took the world offguard, and Newton hasn't impressed me as much as most. RGIII could be the next great thing though imho.

Newton is in a bad spot in Carolina. Rivera looks overmatched and his moves at offensive coordinator are depressing. Mike Shula has never run a bona fide NFL offense for any length of time.

[pbmax]

You have hit on it here. Gimmick offenses are there so lesser teams can compete by doing....something gimmicky. If you have the talent to run it and pass it effectively in the traditional manner, its still the best route to success. If you do not....then you run the wildcat and the read option. SF had a great D and good running game, but needed the extra umph at QB to make the big game. RO gave them that last year. I suspect it won't be enough this year.

If you are the lesser team, then a high risk strategy is the way to go. But when the greatest disparity existed in the NCAA (prior to scholarship reductions to 85), college offenses, with a few exceptions tended not to be gimmicky. They all tended to be run and option based. There were exceptions based on talent but until Howard Schnellenberger took over at Miami, they weren't program or coach based. Except perhaps Purdue.

But I think this analysis misses the point about the newer read option, spread option, run and shoot, Air Raid, etc. You could call them gimmicky, but they aren't high risk. In fact several are the opposite, their plays (like Oregon) tend to be risk averse.

Passing now is far less riskier than previously. And option ball is tried and true sound.

[3irty1]

If you are the lesser team, then a high risk strategy is the way to go. But when the greatest disparity existed in the NCAA (prior to scholarship reductions to 85), college offenses, with a few exceptions tended not to be gimmicky. They all tended to be run and option based. There were exceptions based on talent but until Howard Schnellenberger took over at Miami, they weren't program or coach based. Except perhaps Purdue.

But I think this analysis misses the point about the newer read option, spread option, run and shoot, Air Raid, etc. You could call them gimmicky, but they aren't high risk. In fact several are the opposite, their plays (like Oregon) tend to be risk averse.

Passing now is far less riskier than previously. And option ball is tried and true sound.

Philosophically, a flexbone triple-option heavy offense like Paul Johnson's at GT is the ultimate underdog offense in college football IMO.

Against a better team, the big plays from a passing game is a high-risk gamble that can win you the game but I don't think its the way to go. Better than that is to run the ball and shorten the game. In a shorter game fewer things need to go your way in order to win. The better team gets less chances to be better. In that offense though, you often also get an above average amount of big plays as well. You can't just play assignments against this advanced of an option team, they'll figure them out and read your assignment, put a guy in motion to double team an assignment, or run the play away from your assignment even to the short side of the field. So the whole game is a punch, counterpunch, counter-counterpunch, etc.

On top of all that the personnel you need to make it work is WR/HB hybrids who can be vastly undersized and a scrambler QB who if he can pass is icing on the cake. The funny thing about the flexbone is that it was born out of the run-and-shoot. If you put 8 in the box against it, you're leaving yourself in a 3 deep coverage just asking for them to audible to a 4-verticles for easy underneath completions even if your QB barely has an arm. For an underdog, what more could you want? Short game, big plays, low risk!

[rbaloha1]

won't argue the fact that if a guy is an exceptional throwing from the pocket QB who has a good running game and great D to boot that his team will be very successful.

I am saying that a guy that runs the read option more than 4 times a game won't likely be successful because that will mean they likely don't pass well from the pocket.

First of all how can put a number of 4 on read option plays?

Second all the read option qbs have demonstrated the ability to throw successfully from the pocket (CK, Wilson, RG III, Newton, etc.) The new draft picks are also capable of throwing from the pocket.

Third pocket passers like AR, Brady, both Mannings are incapable of running read option nor do they want to.

Bottom Line: Read Option is an added dimension not a complete overhaul.

[rbaloha1]

Philosophically, a flexbone triple-option heavy offense like Paul Johnson's at GT is the ultimate underdog offense in college football IMO.

Against a better team, the big plays from a passing game is a high-risk gamble that can win you the game but I don't think its the way to go. Better than that is to run the ball and shorten the game. In a shorter game fewer things need to go your way in order to win. The better team gets less chances to be better. In that offense though, you often also get an above average amount of big plays as well. You can't just play assignments against this advanced of an option team, they'll figure them out and read your assignment, put a guy in motion to double team an assignment, or run the play away from your assignment even to the short side of the field. So the whole game is a punch, counterpunch, counter-counterpunch, etc.

On top of all that the personnel you need to make it work is WR/HB hybrids who can be vastly undersized and a scrambler QB who if he can pass is icing on the cake. The funny thing about the flexbone is that it was born out of the run-and-shoot. If you put 8 in the box against it, you're leaving yourself in a 3 deep coverage just asking for them to audible to a 4-verticles for easy underneath completions even if your QB barely has an arm. For an underdog, what more could you want? Short game, big plays, low risk!

Correction -- Paul Johnson's offense is from the wishbone not the run and shoot. Mouse Davis/June Jone's run and shoot could not be more opposite from Paul Johnson's offense.

Watched, studied, listened and went to film studies of both offenses while they coached at Hawaii.

[rbaloha1]

If you are the lesser team, then a high risk strategy is the way to go. But when the greatest disparity existed in the NCAA (prior to scholarship reductions to 85), college offenses, with a few exceptions tended not to be gimmicky. They all tended to be run and option based. There were exceptions based on talent but until Howard Schnellenberger took over at Miami, they weren't program or coach based. Except perhaps Purdue.

But I think this analysis misses the point about the newer read option, spread option, run and shoot, Air Raid, etc. You could call them gimmicky, but they aren't high risk. In fact several are the opposite, their plays (like Oregon) tend to be risk averse.

Passing now is far less riskier than previously. And option ball is tried and true sound.

Risk averse? These offenses are aggressive designed to score points -- not concerned about time of possession. No matter what you think pitching the ball is risky along with throwing the ball (think Woody Hayes).

[rbaloha1]

Newton is in a bad spot in Carolina. Rivera looks overmatched and his moves at offensive coordinator are depressing. Mike Shula has never run a bona fide NFL offense for any length of time.

CK only took the packers offguard -- Capers failed to prepare properly.

[rbaloha1]

You have hit on it here. Gimmick offenses are there so lesser teams can compete by doing....something gimmicky. If you have the talent to run it and pass it effectively in the traditional manner, its still the best route to success. If you do not....then you run the wildcat and the read option. SF had a great D and good running game, but needed the extra umph at QB to make the big game. RO gave them that last year. I suspect it won't be enough this year.

These are only gimmicks to dinasour thinkers.

Traditional offenses give the defense an advantage since the qb does not have to be accounted for.

Newer offenses put added pressure on defenses. Just heard Urlacher on Mike & Mike talk about the difficulties defensing newer offenses.

[rbaloha1]

Of course there are more factors. That's why I said time was one reason.

But if competing against superior talent was the only factor, then teams would be using less non-traditional offenses today than before, because the talent gap has narrowed (scholarship limits), passing game rule changes, practice limits and the proliferation of talent outside of Ohio, Pennsylvania and Texas. In other words, people would be reverse engineering the Badgers under Alvarez, who took coal to Newcastle and beat the traditional powers with his running game and defense (unless you were Michigan then by rule the Badgers lost just to keep order in the Universe).

Instead, despite the leveling, the number of alternate offenses has proliferated and has incorporated older option concepts. But even those older concepts are given a new spin. I believe there is only one team running a true triple option run offense in D1 right now.

Tommie Frazier never got the chance to run a pro offense. Tebow barely got one.

The primary factor pushing teams to innovate in the passing game is the increased reward versus the decreased risk compared to decades past. And the increased focus on passing in college has in turn produced more QBs with phenomenal athletic talent who are also accomplished passers. Perhaps not schooled as before, but talented and trained arms none-the-less.

Their numbers and passing training make the likelihood of NFL teams committing to something other than traditional drop back passing more likely.

Fraizer and Tebow can not pass.

[3irty1]

Correction -- Paul Johnson's offense is from the wishbone not the run and shoot. Mouse Davis/June Jone's run and shoot could not be more opposite from Paul Johnson's offense.

Watched, studied, listened and went to film studies of both offenses while they coached at Hawaii.

The Flexbone came from the original run-and-shoot created by Tiger Ellison. In fact the formation is exactly the same, it was just revived for use as a triple-option offense hence the bone. The Hawaii run-n-shoot has the same roots but has been innovated to the point of being unrecognizable.

[rbaloha1]

The Flexbone came from the original run-and-shoot created by Tiger Ellison. In fact the formation is exactly the same, it was just revived for use as a triple-option offense hence the bone. The Hawaii run-n-shoot has the same roots but has been innovated to the point of being unrecognizable.

Yes, Mouse Davis borrowed it from Tiger Ellison. Mouse believed in triple option.

June's version is more adapted to the NFL. Plus when June ran Mouse's run and shoot at Portland State, Mouse had to modify to utilize June's pocket passing strengths and inability to run.

Formations are irrelevant.

I have heard Paul Johnson say personally the offense he runs is a derivative of the wishbone -- the two outside rbs were shifted to slots and run triple option. It is also easier to throw from than the wishbone. BTW Johnson does not like name flexbone attached to his offense.

In terms of the pistol -- Mouse and June say it was derived from the single wing. Unsure -- but Mouse and Ault are longtime hated rivals from the 70's.

[3irty1]

Yes, Mouse Davis borrowed it from Tiger Ellison. Mouse believed in triple option.

June's version is more adapted to the NFL. Plus when June ran Mouse's run and shoot at Portland State, Mouse had to modify to utilize June's pocket passing strengths and inability to run.

Formations are irrelevant.

I have heard Paul Johnson say personally the offense he runs is a derivative of the wishbone -- the two outside rbs were shifted to slots and run triple option. It is also easier to throw from than the wishbone. BTW Johnson does not like name flexbone attached to his offense.

In terms of the pistol -- Mouse and June say it was derived from the single wing. Unsure -- but Mouse and Ault are longtime hated rivals from the 70's.

The formation is not irrelevant but even still its not just the formation that came from the run-and-shoot. The Ellison offense was very balanced and used the same blocking schemes to disguise run vs pass. The famous Ellison playbook, Gangster, Cowboy, Wagon Train, Popcorn, and Mudcat all had rushing plays and a pass play to contradict the rushing plays. The Gangster and Cowboy were speed and triple options and are what Ken Hatfield took to Air Force and the basis for everything that the flexbone is today. Of course Johnson's not wrong to say that his offense came from the wishbone either.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Pretty solid article on the Read Option which focuses on the Rams and how they may be the best equipped team to stop it. True or not, it does have some great insight on how the plays are run and theories on how to stop it. They also note that in games the Rams had vs Seattle and SF, very few Read Option plays were used.

http://www.turfshowtimes.com/2013/5/21/4342088/2013-nfl-chess-match-the-read-option

Another ESPN article on the % of plays that teams ran the RO last season:
http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post/_/id/95574/run-oriented-qbs-and-nfc-west-mythology

Another article by Chris Brown from SmartFootball, who is a big proponent of the RO, and has great diagrams on the RO, which were used in the first link above about the Rams.
http://www.sbnation.com/longform/2012/12/27/3792740/pistol-offense-nfl-redskins-rg3

Finally, an article about how to stop the RO, which is essentially to hit the QB on every play they run it.
http://www.stampedeblue.com/2013/2/25/4025762/bill-polian-thinks-the-way-to-stop-read-option-is-to-hit-the-qb-every

[pbmax]

A [possible] theory on Datone Jones. Dammit. I keep batting .500


TCU's coach, Gary Patterson, told the NY Times "If the defensive end is fast enough to be able to play the running back or the quarterback instead of some other person on your defense, that frees up a guy," he said. "If nine guys out of your 11 can run somebody down, it always helps."

from Cheese's Turf Show Times link

[pbmax]

I love the Turf Show Times link:


I think we didn’t fit it up as we had practiced throughout the week. We were seeing the zone read since the beginning of OTAs with Robert [Griffin III] and our offense," inside linebacker London Fletcher said. "So we knew how to fit it up; guys just didn’t play it the way we’re supposed to every single time.

You have to be technically sound. You’ve got to rally to the football, but you’ve got to do assignment football. If one guy misses, then the next guy’s got to make it, and the next thing you know, it’s an 8-yard gain.

Quick, name three Packers who tend to freelance and might get a defense out of its designed shape?

[rbaloha1]

The formation is not irrelevant but even still its not just the formation that came from the run-and-shoot. The Ellison offense was very balanced and used the same blocking schemes to disguise run vs pass. The famous Ellison playbook, Gangster, Cowboy, Wagon Train, Popcorn, and Mudcat all had rushing plays and a pass play to contradict the rushing plays. The Gangster and Cowboy were speed and triple options and are what Ken Hatfield took to Air Force and the basis for everything that the flexbone is today. Of course Johnson's not wrong to say that his offense came from the wishbone either.

Good summary of the flexbone which is an offense I am very unfamiliar with. Hatfield transitioned nicely from Debury's wishbone.

Paul Johnson's roots are with Georgia Southern. Recall PJ saying his offense was learned from a high school coach. PJ's protege is running his offense at Navy.

[rbaloha1]

Again all this stuff is stating the obvious about assignments which are easily blown since you do not rep it enough during practices.

Still comes down to your d-front being better.

Auburn and LSU controlled Oregon's spread by having a better front.

TAMU beat BAMA because they have a better offensive line than Bama's front.

It is unknown if the Packer front seven has upgraded enough to control the read option.

[Cleft Crusty]

It is unknown if the Packer front seven has upgraded enough to control the read option.

that is unvarnished, unassailable truth.

[Cheesehead Craig]

I wonder if there's going to be a rash of signings of QB's that ran the RO in college on team's practice squads so that way they can get a better feel of going against it.

[3irty1]

The Packers should at least have the players to sell-out against the big plays and buckle down in the redzone where in the box defenders come free. More importantly the Packers have the firepower to consistently be competitive. 45-49 victories are underrated.

[bobblehead]

First of all how can put a number of 4 on read option plays?

Second all the read option qbs have demonstrated the ability to throw successfully from the pocket (CK, Wilson, RG III, Newton, etc.) The new draft picks are also capable of throwing from the pocket.

Third pocket passers like AR, Brady, both Mannings are incapable of running read option nor do they want to.

Bottom Line: Read Option is an added dimension not a complete overhaul.

Partly agree. RGIII has shown great talent as a pocket passer. Wilson decent. The other 2 I think are inadequate to win with long term (my opinion). I agree an extra dimension HELPS all things equal. I think if you can pass from the pocket and dissect a defense you wont' be running much RO.

I put the number at 4 because it keeps a D honest without exposing your QB too much. Of course 4 is somewhat arbitrary....if a team isn't defending it (ala GB in the playoffs) you might run it more.

[pbmax]

WRONG I was. Newton did run it in 2012 http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/37579/cam-newton-and-the-diversity-of-carolinas-zone-read-package

Wilson started to use it after mid-season. It was not initially part of their offense.

[rbaloha1]

Partly agree. RGIII has shown great talent as a pocket passer. Wilson decent. The other 2 I think are inadequate to win with long term (my opinion). I agree an extra dimension HELPS all things equal. I think if you can pass from the pocket and dissect a defense you wont' be running much RO.

I put the number at 4 because it keeps a D honest without exposing your QB too much. Of course 4 is somewhat arbitrary....if a team isn't defending it (ala GB in the playoffs) you might run it more.

Again -- pure pocket passers are pure pocket passers for a reason.

[bobblehead]

Again -- pure pocket passers are pure pocket passers for a reason.

Yes, but we disagree on the reason. I say its because its the best way to win. ARod could run the option....remember he lead the NFL in rushing for QB's once. He would NOT do it because it exposes him and he is too good at passing from the pocket.

I suspect that RGIII won't run it this season, but he will improve as a pocket passer. Tebow can't even get a contract and he runs the RO better (and before) everyone else.

We can respectfully agree to disagree on this, time will tell who is right.

[Cleft Crusty]

I was only using Tarkenton as an example of how the RO QB's might lengthen their playing time - by developing the ability to avoid taking a big hit. I watched and was maddened by Tarkenton for years (because I was a Packer fan); he had a way of escaping the big hit that I sorely wished they'd lay on him.

Whether a QB is looking to run or looking to escape getting creamed in the pocket, the ability to avoid taking clean shots will prolong your career. Tarkenton was maddeningly good at that.

I hated that bastard.

I like your post, Mr. Fritz, but holy frijoles, the difference is that, unless you're playing the packers, if you run your QB, he will get tackled. Normally the QB avoids tackles, with good reason. Just look at the percentages - the knocked out of game or career to tackle ratio is exponentially higher for QBs, and that includes running QBs , not just scrambling QBs. Steve Young probably epitomized the best use of running ability in a QB who could pass from the pocket. Runs for a QB should be safe, legal and rare.

[Cleft Crusty]

Tebow can't even get a contract and he runs the RO better (and before) everyone else.

Well, that's because he's a less accurate passer than Sanchez and my dead grandmother.

[rbaloha1]

Well, that's because he's a less accurate passer than Sanchez and my dead grandmother.

TT can not throw from the pocket. Read option qbs must be able to throw from the pocket which every starter has demonstrated.

[rbaloha1]

Yes, but we disagree on the reason. I say its because its the best way to win. ARod could run the option....remember he lead the NFL in rushing for QB's once. He would NOT do it because it exposes him and he is too good at passing from the pocket.

I suspect that RGIII won't run it this season, but he will improve as a pocket passer. Tebow can't even get a contract and he runs the RO better (and before) everyone else.
We can respectfully agree to disagree on this, time will tell who is right.

There is a BIG difference between scrambling from the pocket and designed read option plays. Comparing the two is impossible.

Again read option qbs must be able to throw from the pocket which TT has not demonstrated.

[rbaloha1]

There is a BIG difference between scrambling from the pocket and designed read option plays. Comparing the two is impossible.

Again read option qbs must be able to throw from the pocket which TT has not demonstrated.

A-rod can not run the option and is on record he has no desire.

Andrew Luck is a good scrambler but can not run the option.

Basically white qbs are incapable of being pocket qbs and read option qbs.8-)

[rbaloha1]

Yes, but we disagree on the reason. I say its because its the best way to win. ARod could run the option....remember he lead the NFL in rushing for QB's once. He would NOT do it because it exposes him and he is too good at passing from the pocket.

I suspect that RGIII won't run it this season, but he will improve as a pocket passer. Tebow can't even get a contract and he runs the RO better (and before) everyone else.

We can respectfully agree to disagree on this, time will tell who is right.

BTW read option as a legit dimension is one season old with CK, RGIII and Wilson making the playoffs -- not a bad percentage.

[bobblehead]

BTW read option as a legit dimension is one season old with CK, RGIII and Wilson making the playoffs -- not a bad percentage.

Untrue. Tebow ran it in denver and made the playoffs doing so.

[bobblehead]

A-rod can not run the option and is on record he has no desire.

Andrew Luck is a good scrambler but can not run the option.

Basically white qbs are incapable of being pocket qbs and read option qbs.8-)

Again, Luck and Rodgers don't run it because they don't rely on gimmicks to beat you....they don't have to. Honestly, explain why Rodgers CAN'T run the RO. He is athletic and reasonably fast. He is very good at making reads. What is it that he lacks?

[Guiness]

Again, Luck and Rodgers don't run it because they don't rely on gimmicks to beat you....they don't have to. Honestly, explain why Rodgers CAN'T run the RO. He is athletic and reasonably fast. He is very good at making reads. What is it that he lacks?

I give up. The correct skin pigmentation?

[Cleft Crusty]

In Clefty's estimation, the Tebow Bronco experience was the gimmick; that team went for a stretch of maybe 12 games with only 3 where the offense passed for more than 150 yards - and in many cases, the passing yards came on very few long gains. In today's NFL, an offense that relies exclusively or predominantly on the run in the RO offense will ultimately be a pariah - much like the team that runs the ball but can't pass (for example, see the Vikings in their wildcard round from last year).

The 2011 Broncos were trying to make the best of an bad situation with a QB who couldn't pass, and so relied on the RO as a gimmick and/or desperate necessity. You have to admire Tebow for doing so much with so little.

[Cleft Crusty]

The correct pigskin mentation

FIFY, as the kids say. You need to think clearly about football.

[rbaloha1]

Untrue. Tebow ran it in denver and made the playoffs doing so.

Increases the percentages of read option qbs despite being white making the playoffs.

Maintain TT's style is an anomaly rather than a trend like CK, RGIII and Wilson

[rbaloha1]

Untrue. Tebow ran it in denver and made the playoffs doing so.

Why is he unemployed as opposed to Woodson?

[Zool]

Why is he unemployed as opposed to Woodson?

Why does this orange taste like 50 pounds?

[rbaloha1]

Why does this orange taste like 50 pounds?

Riddle me this batman.

[Carolina_Packer]

Someone mentioned this link about the read-option: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1644413-are-read-option-quarterbacks-destined-for-shorter-nfl-careers (good article). There's a link in that article from a hyperlink that says "which I highly recommend reading" which takes you to the following article: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1638240-how-nfl-teams-are-transforming-defenses-to-stop-the-read-option This article does talk strategies and shows some schematics which I always find interesting. One thing that really got my attention came near the end of the article and I quote:

"Outside linebackers Paul Kruger, Erik Walden and Connor Barwin drew big money on the open market thanks to their ability to set the edge." Erik Walden setting an edge? Um, OK.

[pbmax]

Was the statement that you must be able to pass to be able to run the read option was just short hand for:

To be successful in the NFL, one must be able to pass as well as run the Read Option.

BTW, while I was surprised find that Newton's offense ran read option in 2012, I was perhaps even more surprised that they ran it in 2011, which I do not remember seeing versus the Packers early in the season. But there you go. Same year Timmy was running it in Denver.

[rbaloha1]

Was the statement that you must be able to pass to be able to run the read option was just short hand for:

To be successful in the NFL, one must be able to pass as well as run the Read Option.

BTW, while I was surprised find that Newton's offense ran read option in 2012, I was perhaps even more surprised that they ran it in 2011, which I do not remember seeing versus the Packers early in the season. But there you go. Same year Timmy was running it in Denver.

No surprise. Dude has a chance to be a superstar.

[bobblehead]

Increases the percentages of read option qbs despite being white making the playoffs.

Maintain TT's style is an anomaly rather than a trend like CK, RGIII and Wilson

I can only assume the TT hate is because he is white? Or you are just fucking with me (a distinct possibility). Now, I don't think he can be a big time winner, but I don't think a RO QB can be. I think RGIII will be, but because I think he will turn into a great QB. I also have high hopes for Wilson. CK? We'll see. Newton, I don't think will ever win.

TT is the most accomplished RO QB ever. TT won a national championship (2x). TT won a Heisman. TT took a losing NFL team and made the playoffs knocking off the defending AFC champs. TT is not as inaccurate as they try and make it out to be. TT's "style" is very much like the above mentioned QB's.

To answer why he is unemployed its because NO team wants the media circus/distraction. Can you honestly tell me he doesn't even merit an offer as a backup?

[bobblehead]

BTW read option as a legit dimension is one season old with CK, RGIII and Wilson making the playoffs -- not a bad percentage.

I will take 2 great D's and an all around good QB for $200 Alex.

[bobblehead]

Was the statement that you must be able to pass to be able to run the read option was just short hand for:

To be successful in the NFL, one must be able to pass as well as run the Read Option.
.

Which is shorthand for: To be successful in the NFL one must be able to pass.

[rbaloha1]

I can only assume the TT hate is because he is white? Or you are just fucking with me (a distinct possibility). Now, I don't think he can be a big time winner, but I don't think a RO QB can be. I think RGIII will be, but because I think he will turn into a great QB. I also have high hopes for Wilson. CK? We'll see. Newton, I don't think will ever win.

TT is the most accomplished RO QB ever. TT won a national championship (2x). TT won a Heisman. TT took a losing NFL team and made the playoffs knocking off the defending AFC champs. TT is not as inaccurate as they try and make it out to be. TT's "style" is very much like the above mentioned QB's.

To answer why he is unemployed its because NO team wants the media circus/distraction. Can you honestly tell me he doesn't even merit an offer as a backup?

Not messing with you since it is too easy -- LOL:razz:

TT's college success is irrelevant.

TT is not in the league because he can not throw from the pocket. No NFL team is going to retool a roster for a ONE DIMENSIONAL RUNNING QB. THIS IS NOT A SINGLE WING LEAGUE.

TT is not in the league because teams want him to switch positions which he refuses to do. TT is not a qb starter even in the CFL.

Your boy needs to stick to preaching and circumsising.

[bobblehead]

Not messing with you since it is too easy -- LOL:razz:

TT's college success is irrelevant.

TT is not in the league because he can not throw from the pocket. No NFL team is going to retool a roster for a ONE DIMENSIONAL RUNNING QB. THIS IS NOT A SINGLE WING LEAGUE.

TT is not in the league because teams want him to switch positions which he refuses to do. TT is not a qb starter even in the CFL.

Your boy needs to stick to preaching and circumsising.

He isn't my boy. I have said many times he can't be a successful long term QB without completely retooling his game. I am simply saying he is the most accomplished RO QB of all time. IMO that is a worthless thing.

[Iron Mike]

http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq254/mraynrand/Patlerized.jpg

[Carolina_Packer]

Not messing with you since it is too easy -- LOL:razz:

TT's college success is irrelevant.

TT is not in the league because he can not throw from the pocket. No NFL team is going to retool a roster for a ONE DIMENSIONAL RUNNING QB. THIS IS NOT A SINGLE WING LEAGUE.

TT is not in the league because teams want him to switch positions which he refuses to do. TT is not a qb starter even in the CFL.

Your boy needs to stick to preaching and circumsising.

Good artilce/opinion: http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/58459/would-tim-tebow-be-a-bust-in-cfl

He needs to come down from his refusal to switch positions or he might be out of football for good. I think it will just take some time away from football and him missing it to realize for himself that he needs to switch. I remember Eric Crouch refusing to switch positions after being an option QB at Nebraska. Look where that got him? The Rams obviously loved his speed, drafting him as a wide receiver in 2002, and Crouch was so adamant about playing QB that he retired. The Pack kicked the tires on him at QB and Safety in 2004 and passed. Tim should realize that even though he's more popular as a brand than Eric Crouch, once you are out of the league, they tend to forget, so why not make the switch instead of being a career backup at QB, or worse, out of the league because teams don't want the distraction he brings as a backup.

[mraynrand]

http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq254/mraynrand/Patlerized.jpg


Dear Mr. Iron Mike,

I have been informed by photobucket that you are downloading many of my pictures. I am entitled to 0.027 cents/download, as per my contract with photobucket. Please remit payment c/o the Plover Institute for the Criminally Non Insane Cynics, Stevens Point, WI. Thank you.

Your pal,

MrAynRand

[woodbuck27]

Dear Mr. Iron Mike,

I have been informed by photobucket that you are downloading many of my pictures. I am entitled to 0.027 cents/download, as per my contract with photobucket. Please remit payment c/o the Plover Institute for the Criminally Non Insane Cynics, Stevens Point, WI. Thank you.

Your pal,

MrAynRand

Look out.

There's been someone posing as you... here... of late.

He's a rather nice gentleman.

[pbmax]

Dear Mr. Iron Mike,

I have been informed by photobucket that you are downloading many of my pictures. I am entitled to 0.027 cents/download, as per my contract with photobucket. Please remit payment c/o the Plover Institute for the Criminally Non Insane Cynics, Stevens Point, WI. Thank you.

Your pal,

MrAynRand

Is that Institute near the Del Monte canning facility?

[Iron Mike]

Dear Mr. Iron Mike,

I have been informed by photobucket that you are downloading many of my pictures. I am entitled to 0.027 cents/download, as per my contract with photobucket. Please remit payment c/o the Plover Institute for the Criminally Non Insane Cynics, Stevens Point, WI. Thank you.

Your pal,

MrAynRand

You can just call me IM. :)