Desmond

[Freak Out]

Not sure if this was posted anywhere else.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/05/20/desmond-bishop-aims-to-be-nfl-defensive-player-of-the-year/

[pbmax]

Very much will like having Desmond back. But he is not a panacea. He was a major part of one mediocre year (2010) and one terrible year (2011) of Run Defense.

Answer probably lies elsewhere.

[Brandon494]

He brings pressure up the middle and can also cause turnovers with big hits, something we didn't have last season with our ILBs. Defense adding Bishop, Perry, and Jones should imo really help the run defense.

[Brandon494]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/obstacles-nothing-new-for-desmond-bishop-hes-setting-goals-high-e8a0b7o-208094211.html

[3irty1]

Very much will like having Desmond back. But he is not a panacea. He was a major part of one mediocre year (2010) and one terrible year (2011) of Pass Defense.

Answer probably lies elsewhere.

Fixed. In 2011 Aaron Rodgers provided the greatest run defense in the league. Running the ball was a waste of time. Time that was precious since you were going to need 30+ points to win and was much better spent getting easy completions against a secondary that played like there was a carbon monoxide leak.

Anyways Bishop is certainly capable of making a probowl and certainly has a punchers chance at DPOY. I hope every player on the defense has those kind of aspirations.

[MadScientist]

His attitude is great, but this is a standard off season puff piece. Makes everything sound great and makes you want to root for a player. Some of the WR's and DB's show a bit during the OTA's, but with Bishop I don't think we will get much real information until preseason game 2-3.

[pbmax]

Fixed. In 2011 Aaron Rodgers provided the greatest run defense in the league. Running the ball was a waste of time. Time that was precious since you were going to need 30+ points to win and was much better spent getting easy completions against a secondary that played like there was a carbon monoxide leak.

Anyways Bishop is certainly capable of making a probowl and certainly has a punchers chance at DPOY. I hope every player on the defense has those kind of aspirations.

The numbers weren't huge, but when teams COULD run, they did so successfully in 2011.

Football Outsiders had them ranked at #29 versus the run. Pass D was 24th.

[3irty1]

The numbers weren't huge, but when teams COULD run, they did so successfully in 2011.

Football Outsiders had them ranked at #29 versus the run. Pass D was 24th.

The 2010 team was ranked like 26th or 28th weren't they? That doesn't tell the story though on the field. Whenever they needed to stop the run they did so with ease. Until last year we were on a pretty good 3 year streak of never being beaten by a running back.

[Cleft Crusty]

"According to Daniel Jeremiah of NFL Network and NFL.com (via his colleague, Ian Rapoport), the Packers are willing to trade inside linebacker Desmond Bishop."

Clefty will pay attention to see how correct Messrs Jeremiah and Rapoport are in their reporting. They may be worthy of the Urinalscented crack squad. Just to make a basic common sense observation: every team is willing to trade any player, so long as the price is right.

[ND72]

Not a big fan of Bishop. Always thought he was a bit over hyped and over rated. Just my personal opinion.

[rbaloha1]

Very much will like having Desmond back. But he is not a panacea. He was a major part of one mediocre year (2010) and one terrible year (2011) of Run Defense.

Answer probably lies elsewhere.

Again (without the big font) -- what are you watching?

Who makes impact plays? Hawk?

[rbaloha1]

"According to Daniel Jeremiah of NFL Network and NFL.com (via his colleague, Ian Rapoport), the Packers are willing to trade inside linebacker Desmond Bishop."

Clefty will pay attention to see how correct Messrs Jeremiah and Rapoport are in their reporting. They may be worthy of the Urinalscented crack squad. Just to make a basic common sense observation: every team is willing to trade any player, so long as the price is right.

TT tried to under state it. My guess is someone is about to emerge.

[Brandon494]

Not a big fan of Hawk. Always thought he was a bit over hyped and over rated. Just my personal opinion.

fixed

[George Cumby]

A healthy Desmond makes this D better. He hits hard and provides the aggressive edge that the team needs.

[wist43]

Unfortunately, I think the Packers do view their ability to score points on offense as a form of run defense. Why the Packers as an organization don't like to play physical football is a mystery to me, but it is what it is.

The Packers are a soft, finesse, passing team. Everything else is a function of that, including defense.

I doubt you could eat a candy bar in the amount of time Capers spends on prepping to stop an opponents running game. 2nd and 6 he's already in a 2-4 regardless of the score... give us a bit of a lead?? middle of the 3rd quarter on?? we don't need no stinkin' linemen!!! :alc:

[Iron Mike]

Forget the article. Just have a laugh at Packers fans owning the Queens fans in the comments... :)

[3irty1]

Unfortunately, I think the Packers do view their ability to score points on offense as a form of run defense. Why the Packers as an organization don't like to play physical football is a mystery to me, but it is what it is.

The Packers are a soft, finesse, passing team. Everything else is a function of that, including defense.

I doubt you could eat a candy bar in the amount of time Capers spends on prepping to stop an opponents running game. 2nd and 6 he's already in a 2-4 regardless of the score... give us a bit of a lead?? middle of the 3rd quarter on?? we don't need no stinkin' linemen!!! :alc:

The way it used to work made sense to me. In 2010 how often did we see:

1st and 10: Capers comes out in the 2-4 with Raji and Pickett clogging up the middle. Basically dares the opposing team to try and run which they do for 6 yards.
2nd and 4: Capers brings in the 3-4 Adding Wilson or Green. Offense tries to run again and gets stuffed. 1 yard gain.
3rd and 3: Packers bring out the 2-4 again but the pass rushing version with Cullen Jenkins and Raji in the middle. Incomplete.
4th and 3: Punt

I swear that shit used to happen. He used to dare opposing teams into calling plays like Mike Sherman (run, run, pass, punt) because we knew we could stop the run with the best of them.

[RashanGary]

3hirty1,

In 2010, we played 8 in the box defense, man coverage outside with Collins covering the whole back end. The extra box defender made stopping the run easy.

[Packers4Glory]

Love Desmond. He's one of the few nasty intimidating guys we have on defense. Easily the best inside LB we have...and it's not even close.

[pbmax]

"According to Daniel Jeremiah of NFL Network and NFL.com (via his colleague, Ian Rapoport), the Packers are willing to trade inside linebacker Desmond Bishop."

Clefty will pay attention to see how correct Messrs Jeremiah and Rapoport are in their reporting. They may be worthy of the Urinalscented crack squad. Just to make a basic common sense observation: every team is willing to trade any player, so long as the price is right.

I can see Ted wanting to move in the draft, I just don't get Bishop as bait. He was injured for Pete's sake.

[pbmax]

Not a big fan of Bishop. Always thought he was a bit over hyped and over rated. Just my personal opinion.

Agreed on over-hype. He is not the answer to all problems but he can help. Great at playing downhill and pursuit. Good tackler. Probably a notch above Hawk in coverage though not as good as Jones was last year.

Not a run stuffer. If the toughness crowd wants toughness to mean playing with an edge, then he is your guy. If toughness means being able to hold your ground and control your gap, he is not a step up from Hawk.

He is probably a help versus the read option though. Jones was slow to react on play action and that QB/RB give. Bishop would not have been slow. If he is kept clean like Jones was several times, he might make the tackle inside. He would be secondary pursuit on Klein's jaunts to the edge though.

[3irty1]

Last year the whole defense had 2 FF. Bishop averages that on his own. Call him overhyped but the fact is the guy gets results.

[RashanGary]

Last year the whole defense had 2 FF. Bishop averages that on his own. Call him overhyped but the fact is the guy gets results.

Impact player. PB brings up valid points in the areas where he's not great. Just like Jones and Hawk, he has limitations to his game. Completely unlike Jones or Hawk, Bishop has areas of his game where he is dominant (hitting.)

Tom Brady isn't good at everything (serious mobility deficits.) If you want to sit and talk about what a player isn't great at, you can do that all day long with every player. The bottom line with Bishop is he makes big plays (period.)

[pbmax]

Impact player. PB brings up valid points in the areas where he's not great. Just like Jones and Hawk, he has limitations to his game. Completely unlike Jones or Hawk, Bishop has areas of his game where he is dominant (hitting.)

Tom Brady isn't good at everything (serious mobility deficits.) If you want to sit and talk about what a player isn't great at, you can do that all day long with every player. The bottom line with Bishop is he makes big plays (period.)

And that is precisely the weird issue with the front seven. There is talent and ability up and down. But none of the pieces seem to fit cleanly. If Jones plays dime LB, one issue could be solved.

And it is possible that improved D line play makes Hawk and Bishop more effective in run D. But that's another set of questions itself.

[bobblehead]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/obstacles-nothing-new-for-desmond-bishop-hes-setting-goals-high-e8a0b7o-208094211.html

If you want to call the packers D soft, this sums it up. Desmond isn't the biggest guy, he might "hurt" the weight average stat that some like to cite. But he has a chip on his shoulder. Guys need to play football with a chip. High motor, refuse to quit guys are infectious. That is why I like guys like Lang and Sitton. Grinders. Guys that get beat, get up and try harder.

I have hopes that guys like Jones, Bishop, McMillan might change the attitude of this D. They don't need to be bigger, they need to have a chip on their shoulder.

[bobblehead]

Agreed on over-hype. He is not the answer to all problems but he can help. Great at playing downhill and pursuit. Good tackler. Probably a notch above Hawk in coverage though not as good as Jones was last year.

Not a run stuffer. If the toughness crowd wants toughness to mean playing with an edge, then he is your guy. If toughness means being able to hold your ground and control your gap, he is not a step up from Hawk.

He is probably a help versus the read option though. Jones was slow to react on play action and that QB/RB give. Bishop would not have been slow. If he is kept clean like Jones was several times, he might make the tackle inside. He would be secondary pursuit on Klein's jaunts to the edge though.

This is where I think guys obsess over the 40 time. I don't care if Bishop is "slow", he diagnoses plays so fast that his speed isn't that relevant. A guy running a 4.4 would be late in many cases.

[3irty1]

If you want to call the packers D soft, this sums it up. Desmond isn't the biggest guy, he might "hurt" the weight average stat that some like to cite. But he has a chip on his shoulder. Guys need to play football with a chip. High motor, refuse to quit guys are infectious. That is why I like guys like Lang and Sitton. Grinders. Guys that get beat, get up and try harder.

I have hopes that guys like Jones, Bishop, McMillan might change the attitude of this D. They don't need to be bigger, they need to have a chip on their shoulder.

Hell yeah, infectious is right! How much effort would you give as a defensive lineman with Desmond Bishop breathing down your neck vs. Hawk or Jones?

[run pMc]

Prior to his injury, Bishop was the best ILB they had on the roster. If his hamstring is healed (as he claims), I think that's still the case.
The DPOY talk is just that IMO, but it's a nice goal. I like his attitude and ambition, but ILB is a tough spot to win DPOY from.

Would you trade Bishop for a R2 or R3 pick? You get younger, probably healthier, and cheaper.

This year's R2 LB's were: Manti Te'o, Kevin Minter, Kiko Alonso, Arthur Brown, Jamie Collins
Last year's R2 LB's were: Courtney Upshaw, Mychal Kendricks, Bobby Wagner, Lavonte David, Vinny Curry, Zach Brown.

My guess is that, a lot of personnel put out discreet feelers to determine what they could get for a player, this one got leaked. With contracts to Hawk and Jones, I think TT wanted to see what he could get and didn't like the lowball offers. I bet he'd take a R2 for Bishop if he could get it.

[Brandon494]

I don't understand the talk about over-hype on Bishop. Never once heard anyone say they thought he was one of the best MLB in the game or that he'll solve our run defense. All I know is that he is one of the hardest hitting players on the team and is a impact player when healthy. In his two seasons as a starter the guy has accounted for 8 sacks, 4 FFs, and has lead the team in tackles.

Oh yea and lets not forget if not for Bishop we might not even have made it to the Super Bowl.


With 1:37 left, Eagles quarterback Michael Vick found Desean Jackson on a simple crossing pattern and after making safety Charlie Peprah miss, Jackson had nothing but green grass around him.

As Jackson was breaking into the clear, however, Packers linebacker Desmond Bishop reached out and got just enough to bring Jackson down at the Packers 38-yard line.

[Cleft Crusty]

Last year the whole defense had 2 FF. Bishop averages that on his own. Call him overhyped but the fact is the guy gets results.

2 FF?

[Brandon494]

Forced Fumbles

[Cleft Crusty]

Forced Fumbles

Clefty is confused - is that number of FFs that the Packers recovered or total?

[QBME]

Clefty is confused - is that number of FFs that the Packers recovered or total?

According to ESPN stats, for the season Packers had 8 forced fumbles, recovered 5 of them.

[Cleft Crusty]

According to ESPN stats, for the season Packers had 8 forced fumbles, recovered 5 of them.

That explains some of the confusion. That, and incipient dementia.

[RashanGary]

If you want to call the packers D soft, this sums it up. Desmond isn't the biggest guy, he might "hurt" the weight average stat that some like to cite. But he has a chip on his shoulder. Guys need to play football with a chip. High motor, refuse to quit guys are infectious. That is why I like guys like Lang and Sitton. Grinders. Guys that get beat, get up and try harder.

I have hopes that guys like Jones, Bishop, McMillan might change the attitude of this D. They don't need to be bigger, they need to have a chip on their shoulder.

I agree completely. Nastiness. If you watch the NBA, teams are realizing, the way to slow down great offense is to inflict a little pain. Some men are not created equal. There are super-human specimens. Lebron, AP, etc. . . . You stop them by hurting them. Their mind is not super-human. They are human, and if you hurt them, they protect their bodies better next time. Bishop makes having the ball a less joyous occasion for the opposition.

This is a big belief of mine in football, but a big hit does not affect one play. Those 2 fumbles Bishop causes per season don't just affect that play. They make the RB scared of dropping the ball again, and they make him afraid of getting hit again. One D. Bishop hit affects the guy on the receiving end for the rest of the game. Bishop is a hammer and it changes games.

[Brandon494]

Yup, I'd much rather see Bishop knocking the snot out of someone then Hawk arm wrapping a player then dropping to his knees until help comes.

[3irty1]

Oops looks like I'm spreading misinformation with my 2 FF comment. Not sure where why I thought that was the real number. Either way its not enough and Bishop can fix it. I don't believe for a second that he was seriously being shopped either. Seems like one of those PFT narratives like when Rodgers hated cancer patients.

[RashanGary]

Yup, I'd much rather see Bishop knocking the snot out of someone then Hawk arm wrapping a player then dropping to his knees until help comes.

There's a safety in Baltimore, not Reed, but the other guy. I forget his name, pollard I think. Anyway, that guy is a fruckin hammer. You can see he has coverage deficiencies, but when I watch Baltimore play, the big hits that guy puts on. I guarantee he makes offensive players afraid and tentative.

I definitely don't put Bishop in the Clay category of playmaker. Clay not only hurts people, but he's so good at what he does, teams have to gameplan against him too. Bishop isn't that kind of playmaker. I think PB has kept it an X's and O's discussion. Clay, certainly, will shine in an X's and O's discussion, and every other discussion, making him one of the games greatest players. Football is more than X's and O's though, and not everyone is a matchup nightmare like Clay. There is a natural body preservation factor. Hitters command respect.

I read an article in ESPN magazine today about Dwight Howard. He's not the shot blocker Larry Sanders is, but because he's such a fucking bully, players don't even bother going into the paint against him. They do against Sanders, even though Sanders has a higher block percentage. The moral of the story was, teams will go into the paint against Sanders even though he blocks a high percentage of shots because they're not afraid of him, but they won't go into the paint against Howard even though he's less likely to block shots becuase he'll fuck them up.

PB, if we were to look at football strictly in X's and O's as you are sort of doing here, Bishop and Hawk are comparable players. Hawk can do this, Bishop that. It's a conversation. But if you look at Bishops big hits and believe it changes the psychology of the ball carrier from aggressive and unafraid to tentative, then I think you're a bigger believer in the hammer like me and Brandon.

I fully buy into intimidation. I've been choked out, punched out and beat up. . . I've been on the winning side too. I grew up in a bit of a rough environment. Maybe I have ghetto ball mentality, but it's intuitive to me that you want to intimidate the opponent. I just know that naturally, from life experience. If you've never had someone beat you up and put that scare in you, I imagine it wouldn't be as natural.

[RashanGary]

Another thing you learn by losing a fight. . . . If you're winning, you don't stop because what you're doing to him will happen to you. That's why, in football, I think you need to play will an edge. If you don't rattle his head, he's going to put his helmet down and rattle yours. You have to play 110%.

Football is physical. It is very real that if you let him hurt you, he will hurt you. And even if 20% of players are friendly and nice on the field, you can't take that chance with any of them. The other 80% will either take your head off because they're in the moment or take your head off on purpose.

Again, I've talked about playing football a certain way, and I fully believe in it. But I think this is the best explaination I can give as to why. I never quite knew what it was before, but after reading that article, it got me thinking, and I think this is exactly why. You hurt people because it slows them down. You slow them down so they don't hurt you and so you win. It's simple logic.

Football is won by force, just like a fight. You beat the will out of your opponent.

[ThunderDan]

Yup, I'd much rather see Bishop knocking the snot out of someone then Hawk arm wrapping a player then dropping to his knees until help comes.

Not me so much. Early in Bishops career he would go for the knock out shot and would fly thru the wrong hole leading to long run after long run. That's what kept him on the bench. I would much rather have a LB that makes the tackle than knock the guy out. Sure it would be great to have a Ray Lewis on the team, a guy who can tackle and make big hits, but we don't have that on the Packers right now.

If Bishop returns to his 2011 form and is assignment sure it will be a big improvement for the D.

[Brandon494]

Not me so much. Early in Bishops career he would go for the knock out shot and would fly thru the wrong hole leading to long run after long run. That's what kept him on the bench. I would much rather have a LB that makes the tackle than knock the guy out. Sure it would be great to have a Ray Lewis on the team, a guy who can tackle and make big hits, but we don't have that on the Packers right now.

If Bishop returns to his 2011 form and is assignment sure it will be a big improvement for the D.

Of course some players are going to struggle early on in there careers but hes assignment sure now and he still lays big hits. I also truly believe only reason he was riding the bench early on was because he had the #5 draft pick in front of him who was making big money. Some people want to say I'm a AJ Hawk hater but I call it like I see it and I've been a strong Bishop supporter from the very start and when he finally did get the playing time he performed. I don't mind Hawk and Bishop as our two starting ILB now but when he ran the 4-3 I believe they should have moved Hawk to the outside and have Bishop starting at MLB instead of Poppinga/Hawk/Barnett.

[woodbuck27]

I agree completely. Nastiness. If you watch the NBA, teams are realizing, the way to slow down great offense is to inflict a little pain. Some men are not created equal. There are super-human specimens. Lebron, AP, etc. . . . You stop them by hurting them. Their mind is not super-human. They are human, and if you hurt them, they protect their bodies better next time. Bishop makes having the ball a less joyous occasion for the opposition.

This is a big belief of mine in football, but a big hit does not affect one play. Those 2 fumbles Bishop causes per season don't just affect that play. They make the RB scared of dropping the ball again, and they make him afraid of getting hit again. One D. Bishop hit affects the guy on the receiving end for the rest of the game. Bishop is a hammer and it changes games.

A huge hit also fires up teammates. It's like a dinner bell.

[ThunderDan]

Of course some players are going to struggle early on in there careers but hes assignment sure now and he still lays big hits. I also truly believe only reason he was riding the bench early on was because he had the #5 draft pick in front of him who was making big money. Some people want to say I'm a AJ Hawk hater but I call it like I see it and I've been a strong Bishop supporter from the very start and when he finally did get the playing time he performed. I don't mind Hawk and Bishop as our two starting ILB now but when he ran the 4-3 I believe they should have moved Hawk to the outside and have Bishop starting at MLB instead of Poppinga/Hawk/Barnett.

We ran Popp/Barnett/Hawk. Hawk was the Will in the 4-3.

[Brandon494]

We ran Popp/Barnett/Hawk. Hawk was the Will in the 4-3.

You sure? I'm pretty I remember Barnett complaining about being moved to the outside but maybe I'm mistaken.

[ThunderDan]

You sure? I'm pretty I remember Barnett complaining about being moved to the outside but maybe I'm mistaken.

Barnett always played Mike in the D.

[RashanGary]

So much more time is spent in the meeting rooms and practice field than on the football field. Hawk is a consummate professional. He earns his respect by being a pro's pro. I think him taking a pay cut shows he has a firm grip on reality and isn't off in dream-land. Hawk is a proven, rock solid person and a serviceable player.

Bishop probably isn't the practice player Hawk is. His grip on reality seems a little off compared to Hawk. He's talking about DPOY. It sounds a little like Fin saying he's the best TE in football.

At the end of the day though, football, ultimately, is played on a grass field with an oblong ball and the winner is usually the more violent, high-stakes player. Piggy-backing on Woodbucks "dinner bell" comment, I think there is a certain appreciation for Desmond Bishop that only really shows up on Sundays. When you walk on the field with D Bishop, I think you get the feeling you're with a guy who's going to run first into the fight, and I think it sets a tone. Hawk will provide good cover fire and I think you certainly trust him to do his job, but this defense needs a fearless leader in the middle.

Sunday's scoreboard is determined in the most crude and primitive of fashions. It's determined by blocking, tackling behind the 1st down marker, beating blocks, smashing through a RB in pass pro, running, hitting. . . It comes down to giving up your body, running into danger instead of away from it, standing up for your teammates and for yourself. It comes down to pride, heart, determination, fearlessness, a certain level of stupidity, among other things. Hawk embodies game week, offseason preparation, and professionalism. Bishop embodies "Sunday."

[RashanGary]

I think we just added two other players who bring game-day intensity. Datone Jones and Eddie Lacy are the type of people who run toward danger instead of away from it. When you walk on the football field, the last thing you want to see is players across from you who can't wait to kill you and are willing to destroy their bodies to do it. You want to play against nice guys, regular guys who are out there to earn a paycheck and support their families. You don't want to play against Desmond Bishop, I guarantee that, and I don't think people are going to enjoy playing against Datone Jones either. He's got a junk-yard dog mentality. He's Compton tough.

[rbaloha1]

I think we just added two other players who bring game-day intensity. Datone Jones and Eddie Lacy are the type of people who run toward danger instead of away from it. When you walk on the football field, the last thing you want to see is players across from you who can't wait to kill you and are willing to destroy their bodies to do it. You want to play against nice guys, regular guys who are out there to earn a paycheck and support their families. You don't want to play against Desmond Bishop, I guarantee that, and I don't think people are going to enjoy playing against Datone Jones either. He's got a junk-yard dog mentality. He's Compton tough.

Well said.

[swede]

JH--

At first your posts had me feeling like running through a brick wall for the love of team.

Then I thought of the pretty white towels that John Jefferson and James Lofton used to wear and I got better.

[Guiness]

I remember Bishop saying something like this before, I think it was about halfway through his second year with the team - he was saying all he needed was a chance to get on the field and he'd show them all he belonged and they wouldn't get him off. At the time I thought it was bravado, but it turned out pretty prophetic.