For the Packer Denialists

[rbaloha1]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-defense-studies-the-read-option-b9930393z1-210919171.html

[denverYooper]

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTOeACHbmuvmaC_Tdk2iMndkNCpR5TX1 9jOGxFR6TatBgYiPyiK

[Upnorth]

So the deniers were saying that we had prepared sufficently for the read option??? Is that your point???

Good article as an aside, but I am not seeing the tie in to your thread title.

[rbaloha1]

No big deal.

Fad offense.

Etc., Etc., Etc.

[3irty1]

Did you read this or did you just see the headline and post the story?

"Nowinsky expects NFL defenses to hit the quarterback early and often.
That's why he sees the read-option, in the pros, going the way of the dodo."

[Zool]

Did you read this or did you just see the headline and post the story?

"Nowinsky expects NFL defenses to hit the quarterback early and often.
That's why he sees the read-option, in the pros, going the way of the dodo."

Reading comprehension isn't always taught.

[hoosier]

So in your world anyone who doesn't go along with the panicky overreactions (Packers roster isn't tough enough, the QB option is going to be their achilles heel for the next decade) is a denier? Hard to know where to begin arguing with that way of thinking.

[bobblehead]

So basically its what I have said a million times. Against mobile QB's you collapse the pocket, not take edges.

This article reaffirms what the "denialists" have been saying. We weren't prepared, we will be this time.

[mraynrand]

So basically its what I have said a million times. Against mobile QB's you collapse the pocket, not take edges.

This article reaffirms what the "denialists" have been saying. We weren't prepared, we will be this time.

Good to see you are still posting, Bobble. Thought maybe you and Wist had been liquidated.

[denverYooper]

Good to see you are still posting, Bobble. Thought maybe you and Wist had been liquidated.

They work for Booz Allen?

[Patler]

Funny, I was going to post this article in support of what many have said:
-GB wasn't prepared because SF had not used it much previously
-pro teams will beat up QBs as much as they can
-the physical beating of QBs could make this short-lived
-defenses always catch up

I guess I was wrong?

[wist43]

I have zero faith in Capers - I hadn't watched a lot of SF last year, but I saw enough to know you had to set the edge to contain Kapnerfucker... it wasn't even a consideration for Damien.

The team was completely unprepared - there's no getting around that; and there was beginning to be some grumbling in the locker room; which I think is one of the reasons Woodson was shown the door.

I do think we have a reasonable amount of talent on defense - but as long as Damien is there, we're always one game plan away from being blown out. One week we look like we belong in the SB, and all the homers rejoice as if we've already won it; and the next week we look like one of the worst defenses in the league... that's all on Capers.

Perhaps if he stopped spray painting his hair, he'd get more oxygen and sunlight to his brain, and he'd realize he's not play Madden??

[denverYooper]

Funny, I was going to post this article in support of what many have said:
-GB wasn't prepared because SF had not used it much previously
-pro teams will beat up QBs as much as they can
-the physical beating of QBs could make this short-lived
-defenses always catch up

I guess I was wrong?

The law of averages would seem to imply that the 9ers have a year, *maybe* 2 to capitalize on their current advantage or get relegated to the annals of indifference.

[Patler]

There is also a hint in the article that on the long TD run by Kaepernick, Woodson may have been the biggest culprit, especially when read in view of Greenes comments absolving Walden.

[denverYooper]

Funny, I was going to post this article in support of what many have said:
-GB wasn't prepared because SF had not used it much previously
-pro teams will beat up QBs as much as they can
-the physical beating of QBs could make this short-lived
-defenses always catch up

I guess I was wrong?

They are also going to play 4 games against teams that are built to punish them. I expect Seattle and St. Lou to clobber Kaep this year.

[mraynrand]

Perhaps if he stopped spray painting his hair, he'd get more oxygen and sunlight to his brain

That's a rug up there,
capers has a new recipe for the fall...

http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq254/mraynrand/CapersWOK.jpg (http://s453.photobucket.com/user/mraynrand/media/CapersWOK.jpg.html)

[denverYooper]

There is also a hint in the article that on the long TD run by Kaepernick, Woodson may have been the biggest culprit, especially when read in view of Greenes comments absolving Walden.

I've been wondering about this a bit. Was Woodson becoming a significant part of the defensive issues in general?

[mraynrand]

I've been wondering about this a bit. Was Woodson becoming a significant part of the defensive issues in general?

yes - a guy who has lost a step or two or three gambles more, and then gets caught totally out of position. Not to mention, with two broken shoulders, you just are going to be naturally hesitant about tossing the old body in there - It's a reflex. Note for example Woodson on that first long completion to Gore - that one play says "finished, kaput" as well as any - and there were many - in that game you could cite).

[rbaloha1]

Did you read this or did you just see the headline and post the story?

"Nowinsky expects NFL defenses to hit the quarterback early and often.
That's why he sees the read-option, in the pros, going the way of the dodo."

It is an opinion just like everyone has an asshole.

[rbaloha1]

They are also going to play 4 games against teams that are built to punish them. I expect Seattle and St. Lou to clobber Kaep this year.

These type of offenses can adjust on the fly while defenses can not.

[rbaloha1]

Funny, I was going to post this article in support of what many have said:
-GB wasn't prepared because SF had not used it much previously
-pro teams will beat up QBs as much as they can
-the physical beating of QBs could make this short-lived
-defenses always catch up

I guess I was wrong?

Points 2-4 are yet to be determined.

The denialists/dinasours want this stuff to go away since defense is now more difficult to play.

[Pugger]

It is an opinion just like everyone has an asshole.

If people don't agree with your opinion they are an asshole. Got it.

[rbaloha1]

If people don't agree with your opinion they are an asshole. Got it.

Another misquote by a genius.:eyes:

[3irty1]

If people don't agree with your opinion they are an asshole. Got it.

I don't think it was so much that as it was a badly butchered attempt at the expression: "Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one."

[Pugger]

Another misquote by a genius.:eyes:

:lol: You've been implying that in every thread about how crappy we played against SF. If we don't agree that we are doomed against them we are idiots.

[rbaloha1]

I don't think it was so much that as it was a badly butchered attempt at the expression: "Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one."

Mahalo for the assist.

[rbaloha1]

:lol: You've been implying that in every thread about how crappy we played against SF. If we don't agree that we are doomed against them we are idiots.

Interpret the implying to fit your needs.:bump:

[Patler]

The denialists/dinasours want this stuff to go away since defense is now more difficult to play.

Are you suggesting that some want the offense to go away because defenses won't be able to cope with it? How would that be done, by rule changes or something?

If you are suggesting that, I don't recall anyone having implied that in the least. Some have opined that defenses will learn to handle it, and as a result it will go away or become an infrequent alternative. Some have seemed to suggest that this will become the new offense of the NFL, with ever-increasing use because defenses will not catch up to it.

I don't recall much else.

[RashanGary]

OCs in the NFL have long tried to keep their QB's safe. This is definitely different. I have a hunch defensive players, as well as defensive coaches would like to remind their offensive counterparts why it's a good idea to keep their QB in safer situations.

I'm more of a believer in letting your QB run more in the post season. As a coach, I think you force him to keep his body safe and healthy during the regular season so he can make it to the dance. Once you get there, especially in the biggest moments, let your guy run if he can do it. AR got us to the SB using his legs more than he had all season. When you're playing a win or go home game, the risk/reward dynamic changes quite a bit.

I liked how the 49ers did it. I liked how the Packers did it in 2010. Defenses have pride too. Try doing that all regular season, and you're bound to run into the wrong defender who's just waiting for the chance to inflict serious bodily harm on your QB. I think a TEAM has to be good enough in the regular season to limit the risk of a QB getting injured and still win. It would be like trying to flip heads 16 times in a row. The odds are slim. Three times in a row, though, the odds aren't so bad.

[rbaloha1]

Are you suggesting that some want the offense to go away because defenses won't be able to cope with it? How would that be done, by rule changes or something?

If you are suggesting that, I don't recall anyone having implied that in the least. Some have opined that defenses will learn to handle it, and as a result it will go away or become an infrequent alternative. Some have seemed to suggest that this will become the new offense of the NFL, with ever-increasing use because defenses will not catch up to it.

I don't recall much else.

Greg Macmackin (Aranda's guru from Texas Tech and Hawaii) and a former defensive coordinator at the University of Miami, Seahawks, Texas Tech and Hawaii continually stated while at Hawaii on his coach's show how much easier it is to call defenses in the NFL vs. College.

Coach Mac used to mention the tendencies of NFL offenses in certain formations made it is easy to call a certain defense. Tendenices correlated a very high percentage of the time. Plus what Belichek used to mention was not accounting for the qb provided the defenses with a big advantage. Obviously the new NFL offenses change that.

Kiffin's cover 2 and Carroll's defense were continually destroyed against Oregon.

Dinasours like Capers are forced to work much harder as chronicled in the article.

Yes, they want this stuff to go away in order to keep their jobs.

[RashanGary]

Yes, they want this stuff to go away in order to keep their jobs.

They want it to go away because it's another thing to defend. They have the ability to make it go away because the NFL has some of the biggest, meanest, most violent, ill intentioned men in the world playing defense. In the NFL, unlike college, youth is something QB's only have for the early parts of their career and the complexity of the game gives 28-32 year old players an advantage mentally.

Capers may be a dinosaur in your eyes, but people are just as much compliant to the laws of physics and the biology as they were 20 years ago. Fucking up someones body today is the same as fucking up someones body 100 years ago. QB's peak in the late 20's and it's not because their bodies are best then. It's because the combination of mind/body peak then.

With the new QB protection rules, I can see guys who move around and take physical risks lasting longer. I don't see it completely shifting though. It only takes one monster shot per season to derail a playoff run or end a career. QB play is still going to be most dependent on the ability to manage the game (pace, rhythm, leadership, knowing when to throw the ball away, take a sack, etc), move the ball through the air and stay healthy (triple important for the QB position where the entire rhythm of the offense is set by one guy.)

Running is a cherry on the cake, but just like RBs, running QB's WILL get injured and will have shortened careers. Probably even more-so because QB's need to be taller and as such will take much bigger hits. Knees will be shredded, ribs broken, concussions had, etc. . . . It's a dangerous game, man. RB's are usually 5'10" to 6 feet tall for a reason. Tall guys take far bigger shots to the ribs/back and get their heads spiked to the turf much easier.

[rbaloha1]

They want it to go away because it's another thing to defend. They have the ability to make it go away because the NFL has some of the biggest, meanest, most violent, ill intentioned men in the world playing defense. In the NFL, unlike college, youth is something QB's only have for the early parts of their career and the complexity of the game gives 28-32 year old players an advantage mentally.

Capers may be a dinosaur in your eyes, but people are just as much compliant to the laws of physics and the biology as they were 20 years ago. Fucking up someones body today is the same as fucking up someones body 100 years ago. QB's peak in the late 20's and it's not because their bodies are best then. It's because the combination of mind/body peak then.

With the new QB protection rules, I can see guys who move around and take physical risks lasting longer. I don't see it completely shifting though. It only takes one monster shot per season to derail a playoff run or end a career. QB play is still going to be most dependent on the ability to move the ball through the air and stay healthy.

Certainly a defensive coordinator strategy to blow up the qb is viable but it takes away another defender. The 49ers also have Walker as a protector to account for this.

Capers is not a dinasour -- what was his answer to the niners? Why was he forced to consult with new age d-coordinators?

Its obvious you do not understand strategy and result to cave man retorts.

[denverYooper]

I don't think it was so much that as it was a badly butchered attempt at the expression: "Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one."

"I'll tell you what, you can get a good look at a T-Bone steak by stickin' yer head up a bull's ass, but wouldn't you rather just take the butcher's word for it?"

[RashanGary]

Certainly a defensive coordinator strategy to blow up the qb is viable but it takes away another defender. The 49ers also have Walker as a protector to account for this.

Capers is not a dinasour -- what was his answer to the niners? Why was he forced to consult with new age d-coordinators?

Its obvious you do not understand strategy and result to cave man retorts.

Not only is it viable, it only takes one defender, one pissed off DC, one time in an entire season to end a QB's season or even career. Let them try. It's effective, sure. Those guys are going to be their asses kicked though. Literally, it's no different than RB's. It shortens careers, causes more injuries, etc. And QB's aren't built as compact as RB's. They need to be longer, have bigger arms, etc. . . . . Those guys will get killed, man.

It's a nice wrinkle, especially nice in the playoffs, but the NFL is not going to change to running QB's. Way too much of the offense revolves around the QB being healthy every week, setting the pace, being the coach on the field.

RB's get hurt, have short careers. They're bodies are completely suited for one thing, running the ball. QB's will die. Joe Flacco won the SB last year. Eli Manning, Aaron Rodgers, Ben Rothlisberger, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, etc. . . . . .

Injury is very real in the NFL. If you don't get that, you're retarded.

[RashanGary]

aloha, it's not just blowing up the QB. It's the times he runs, he's going to get fucking killed too.

One in every few plays, I'd make sure to send an assassin on the QB. Fuck it, if that guy wants to do that, maybe they'll get away with it, but I'm make damn sure Colin Kapernick has head injury if he does it.

If he wants to have trouble feeding himself, remembering his kids names and driving his vehicle at the age of 40, let him, but I'd be damn sure to fuck his life up if he thinks he's going to just do whatever he wants.

And guess what, the NFL is filled with coahces and players who think just like me. You don't think the Packers have at least one embarassed player who want's to spike CK to the turf? HOw about Suh, or James Harrison? Guys like them? His brain will be a pile of mush and his career short if he thinks that's how it's going to go.

Just like every other sport predicated on violence, protect your head. Rule #1. Can't wait for 2013. It will be the year of the concussion for read option QB's. Defenders, DCs are not going to take kindly to that type of disrespect. It's like, yeah, you guys can't hurt me. Haha, wait, mother fucker. Get your piss and shit bag ready, cuz your life is about to change.

[rbaloha1]

Not only is it viable, it only takes one defender, one pissed off DC, one time in an entire season to end a QB's season or even career. Let them try. It's effective, sure. Those guys are going to be their asses kicked though. Literally, it's no different than RB's. It shortens careers, causes more injuries, etc. And QB's aren't built as compact as RB's. They need to be longer, have bigger arms, etc. . . . . Those guys will get killed, man.

It's a nice wrinkle, especially nice in the playoffs, but the NFL is not going to change to running QB's. Way too much of the offense revolves around the QB being healthy every week, setting the pace, being the coach on the field.

RB's get hurt, have short careers. They're bodies are completely suited for one thing, running the ball. QB's will die. Joe Flacco won the SB last year. Eli Manning, Aaron Rodgers, Ben Rothlisberger, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, etc. . . . . .

Injury is very real in the NFL. If you don't get that, you're retarded.

Never dismissed injuries. Read option has only been around for one year so you can not compare to pocket passing. You are to black and white to have any discussion -- all current nfl read option qbs except from Tebow can throw from the pocket.

My position is read option is a dimension (Jaws's opinion) and not a revolution (Dilfer's opinion)

You keep dreaming about this stuff to vanish -- it will not in your lifetime. Your dinasour cliches is part of the problem with arrogant coordinators like Capers, LebEau, Kiffin, etc. Guys like Belichek and Carroll learn, adapt and introduce it to their offenses.

[Fritz]

Are you suggesting that some want the offense to go away because defenses won't be able to cope with it? How would that be done, by rule changes or something?

If you are suggesting that, I don't recall anyone having implied that in the least. Some have opined that defenses will learn to handle it, and as a result it will go away or become an infrequent alternative. Some have seemed to suggest that this will become the new offense of the NFL, with ever-increasing use because defenses will not catch up to it.

I don't recall much else.

One aspect of the article I found compelling was the argument that a part of the reason the read-option is so difficult to defend is that it requires a mindset contrary to that the of the NFL defender. When big paychecks are handed out based on QB sacks and interceptions - aggression and chance-taking - and when world class athletes have been honed by coached into violent, attacking machines - then it's awfully difficult to ask NFL defenders to suddenly think very differently about how to stop an offense. As one coach put it, it's about thinking horizontally and not vertically. It's about patience and clogging lanes rather than beating the guy in front of you and getting to the ball.

PB has remarked on this from time to time - that assignment and scheme discipline might've been the biggest culprit in the Minny and SF losses toward the end of the season.

Instead of all this HGH and PED's, maybe spreading some ganj around the defensive huddle before the game would solve the problem of the read-option.

[rbaloha1]

aloha, it's not just blowing up the QB. It's the times he runs, he's going to get fucking killed too.

One in every few plays, I'd make sure to send an assassin on the QB. Fuck it, if that guy wants to do that, maybe they'll get away with it, but I'm make damn sure Colin Kapernick has head injury if he does it.

If he wants to have trouble feeding himself, remembering his kids names and driving his vehicle at the age of 40, let him, but I'd be damn sure to fuck his life up if he thinks he's going to just do whatever he wants.

And guess what, the NFL is filled with coahces and players who think just like me. You don't think the Packers have at least one embarassed player who want's to spike CK to the turf? HOw about Suh, or James Harrison? Guys like them? His brain will be a pile of mush and his career short if he thinks that's how it's going to go.

Just like every other sport predicated on violence, protect your head. Rule #1. Can't wait for 2013. It will be the year of the concussion for read option QB's. Defenders, DCs are not going to take kindly to that type of disrespect. It's like, yeah, you guys can't hurt me. Haha, wait, mother fucker. Get your piss and shit bag ready, cuz your life is about to change.

Pissing in the wind stuff.

CK is not stupid and knows how to protect himself. CK has been running this stuff for 6 plus years with no slowing down anytime soon.

RGIII learned a valuable lesson. RW is also good at sliding.

Guess what -- pocket passers have missed games due to injury (i.e. Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Rothelsberger, etc.)

[rbaloha1]

One aspect of the article I found compelling was the argument that a part of the reason the read-option is so difficult to defend is that it requires a mindset contrary to that the of the NFL defender. When big paychecks are handed out based on QB sacks and interceptions - aggression and chance-taking - and when world class athletes have been honed by coached into violent, attacking machines - then it's awfully difficult to ask NFL defenders to suddenly think very differently about how to stop an offense. As one coach put it, it's about thinking horizontally and not vertically. It's about patience and clogging lanes rather than beating the guy in front of you and getting to the ball.

PB has remarked on this from time to time - that assignment and scheme discipline might've been the biggest culprit in the Minny and SF losses toward the end of the season.

Instead of all this HGH and PED's, maybe spreading some ganj around the defensive huddle before the game would solve the problem of the read-option.

Thank you for helping demonstrate the dinasour thinking of d-coordinators and why the read option is not a fad. Retooling takes time.

[cheesner]

Pissing in the wind stuff.

CK is not stupid and knows how to protect himself. CK has been running this stuff for 6 plus years with no slowing down anytime soon.

RGIII learned a valuable lesson. RW is also good at sliding.

Guess what -- pocket passers have missed games due to injury (i.e. Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Rothelsberger, etc.)

Are you saying RGIII is stupid then? Its already a violent sport, and a QB running is at a greater risk to injury. First, their pads are lighter to help with passing. Second, they are not (as JH pointed out) built to withstand punishment. Third, they will be a target. If they pull off a big run they will make a defender look bad. The next time he tries it, if the defender gets a chance, he will be a little more pissed and hit him a little bit harder. That is just one of the tools an NFL defender uses - intimidation. Next time you try that you will hesitate a moment, and then the advantage goes to the defense.

[cheesner]

Thank you for helping demonstrate the dinasour thinking of d-coordinators and why the read option is not a fad. Retooling takes time.

Pistol offense is a fad. It will not be an issue by the end of this coming season.

[Guiness]

I liked how the 49ers did it. I liked how the Packers did it in 2010. Defenses have pride too. Try doing that all regular season, and you're bound to run into the wrong defender who's just waiting for the chance to inflict serious bodily harm on your QB. I think a TEAM has to be good enough in the regular season to limit the risk of a QB getting injured and still win. It would be like trying to flip heads 16 times in a row. The odds are slim. Three times in a row, though, the odds aren't so bad.

Interesting. Kind of like the way it used to be with special teams, with starters being on ST during playoffs.

[rbaloha1]

Pistol offense is a fad. It will not be an issue by the end of this coming season.

What is your basis for this claim?

[mraynrand]

aloha, it's not just blowing up the QB. It's the times he runs, he's going to get fucking killed too.

One in every few plays, I'd make sure to send an assassin on the QB. Fuck it, if that guy wants to do that, maybe they'll get away with it, but I'm make damn sure Colin Kapernick has head injury if he does it.

If he wants to have trouble feeding himself, remembering his kids names and driving his vehicle at the age of 40, let him, but I'd be damn sure to fuck his life up if he thinks he's going to just do whatever he wants.

And guess what, the NFL is filled with coahces and players who think just like me. You don't think the Packers have at least one embarassed player who want's to spike CK to the turf? HOw about Suh, or James Harrison? Guys like them? His brain will be a pile of mush and his career short if he thinks that's how it's going to go.

Just like every other sport predicated on violence, protect your head. Rule #1. Can't wait for 2013. It will be the year of the concussion for read option QB's. Defenders, DCs are not going to take kindly to that type of disrespect. It's like, yeah, you guys can't hurt me. Haha, wait, mother fucker. Get your piss and shit bag ready, cuz your life is about to change.

You're right on the money with your views, JH. Those read option QBs get out there in space and they are running backs, but everyone wants to get that big shot on them because they are the QB and everyone knows you can entirely end a team's threat by KOing the QB. You don't have to look much further than RGIII to know how devastating an injury to a running QB can be. The threat to run is what makes the running QB so dangerous. Start using it as a primary weapon and your primary weapon goes bye bye pretty fast.

In other threads some have suggested that there will be more of these running types and that they might be more interchangeable, so you won't need the same QB longevity but I don't see it. You have to have the brains and the throwing arm in addition to the running ability and it's just tough to get those all together in one package - and keep it healthy. (Obviously if these guys are right, then the RO/pistol will stick around, but that would represent a seismic shift in the NFL)

[rbaloha1]

Are you saying RGIII is stupid then? Its already a violent sport, and a QB running is at a greater risk to injury. First, their pads are lighter to help with passing. Second, they are not (as JH pointed out) built to withstand punishment. Third, they will be a target. If they pull off a big run they will make a defender look bad. The next time he tries it, if the defender gets a chance, he will be a little more pissed and hit him a little bit harder. That is just one of the tools an NFL defender uses - intimidation. Next time you try that you will hesitate a moment, and then the advantage goes to the defense.

RGIII is stupid for not covering up properly.

TT is built to run the spread option.

Guess what -- offensive players also attempt to intimidate defensive players.

[rbaloha1]

Its amusing to read the denialists sounding like old drunken sailors.:flag:

[rbaloha1]

You're right on the money with your views, JH. Those read option QBs get out there in space and they are running backs, but everyone wants to get that big shot on them because they are the QB and everyone knows you can entirely end a team's threat by KOing the QB. You don't have to look much further than RGIII to know how devastating an injury to a running QB can be. The threat to run is what makes the running QB so dangerous. Start using it as a primary weapon and your primary weapon goes bye bye pretty fast.

In other threads some have suggested that there will be more of these running types and that they might be more interchangeable, so you won't need the same QB longevity but I don't see it. You have to have the brains and the throwing arm in addition to the running ability and it's just tough to get those all together in one package - and keep it healthy. (Obviously if these guys are right, then the RO/pistol will stick around, but that would represent a seismic shift in the NFL)

If your defense is solely worry about a kill shot on the qb you will not contain the offense.

How do you counter when a team has a protector around the qb to counter your guys continual charade of killing qb?

IS KILLING THE QB YOU ONLY DEFENSE AGAINST SPREAD OPTION?

[RashanGary]

Never dismissed injuries. Read option has only been around for one year so you can not compare to pocket passing. You are to black and white to have any discussion -- all current nfl read option qbs except from Tebow can throw from the pocket.

My position is read option is a dimension (Jaws's opinion) and not a revolution (Dilfer's opinion)

You keep dreaming about this stuff to vanish -- it will not in your lifetime. Your dinasour cliches is part of the problem with arrogant coordinators like Capers, LebEau, Kiffin, etc. Guys like Belichek and Carroll learn, adapt and introduce it to their offenses.

And her in lies your problem. You watch ESPN. It's something to talk about. Those guys are going to get hurt. Mark it down.

[rbaloha1]

And her in lies your problem. You watch ESPN. It's something to talk about. Those guys are going to get hurt. Mark it down.

SO DO YOU. I watch numerous stuff and was a former rover defending read option, run and shoot, etc.

Your problem is wishful thinking rather than what is evolving.

[Patler]

There is another side to this that people are not considering.

For the last few years, by rule and by rule interpretation the NFL has attempted to protect QBs at all cost. A lot of it has been based on the belief that QBs were runners only by happenstance. If OCs attempt to take advantage of that by designing more and more plays for intentional carries by the QB, those protections will be lessened, either by rule change or by interpretation. They can't have their cake and eat it too. Close calls now go to QBs. They won't in the future. QBs will be treated like football players again.

QB's racking up run after run, and repeatedly showing up defenders with semi-taunts like bicep flexes, bicep kisses, and maybe even "the belt" will become targets. For the last 3-4 years defenders have been retraining themselves to back off when they get close to a QB. Instead of tackling violently, they tend to tackle them easily, because they are so heavily scrutinized when hitting a QB. But, if QBs continue to rack up huge days running the ball, that will be reversed. Defenders will not back off when getting close to tackling a Kaepernick, but will remind him of the game he is playing. They will risk the penalty that might come with it. I also suspect the NFL will look less harshly on hits up field than hits in the pocket.

Again, you can't expect a QB to be treated with kid gloves, then use him like a running back. Defensive players won't allow it. I suspect that neither will officials or the league.

[RashanGary]

(Obviously if these guys are right, then the RO/pistol will stick around, but that would represent a seismic shift in the NFL)

It would represent a seismic shift in the makeup of the human body, for guys to not get hurt doing things guys have gotten hurt doing since the beginning of time. RGIII didn't last. Russell Wilson is 5'10", built like a RB, he's more likely to sustain running the ball (about as likely as a RB his size, anyway.) CK is a passer first. They opened up running in the playoffs, and good for them. It was the right thing to do. It was a risk I would have taken too. I've said every year, I hope to see AR run more in the post season.

There's never been a 6'5" running back and people have been trying to run the ball for a long time. Could it happen? Sure. Will it? Nope.

CK is going to get fucked up if he tries that all season. There are guys who lay awake at night dreaming of ways to harm quarterbacks, and CK puts him in position to be harmed, badly. He got away with it for a couple games, that's it. A couple games.

This is something to talk about on ESPN. It's a way to get idiots like rbaloha all stirred up thinking they outsmarted the system. Reality is going to enter into the equation real quick. It's just like the wild-cat people. It's a joke, a gimmick, a fad. It works in college, not in the NFL. In the NFL, violence reigns supreme. QB's who are available get their team in a rhythm, they grow together. This will be a good welcome to the NFL moment for you, rbaloha. Not going to work.

[rbaloha1]

There is another side to this that people are not considering.

For the last few years, by rule and by rule interpretation the NFL has attempted to protect QBs at all cost. A lot of it has been based on the belief that QBs were runners only by happenstance. If OCs attempt to take advantage of that by designing more and more plays for intentional carries by the QB, those protections will be lessened, either by rule change or by interpretation. They can't have their cake and eat it too. Close calls now go to QBs. They won't in the future. QBs will be treated like football players again.

QB's racking up run after run, and repeatedly showing up defenders with semi-taunts like bicep flexes, bicep kisses, and maybe even "the belt" will become targets. For the last 3-4 years defenders have been retraining themselves to back off when they get close to a QB. Instead of tackling violently, they tend to tackle them easily, because they are so heavily scrutinized when hitting a QB. But, if QBs continue to rack up huge days running the ball, that will be reversed. Defenders will not back off when getting close to tackling a Kaepernick, but will remind him of the game he is playing. They will risk the penalty that might come with it. I also suspect the NFL will look less harshly on hits up field than hits in the pocket.

Again, you can't expect a QB to be treated with kid gloves, then use him like a running back. Defensive players won't allow it. I suspect that neither will officials or the league.

This is valid except in the read option qbs are not protected once they decide to run.

Generally read option qbs to a good job of protecting themselves and do not have stupid machismo to prove anything. Even TT does not run the read option like he did at Florida as a freshman.

[RashanGary]

Never dismissed injuries. Read option has only been around for one year so you can not compare to pocket passing. You are to black and white to have any discussion -- all current nfl read option qbs except from Tebow can throw from the pocket.

My position is read option is a dimension (Jaws's opinion) and not a revolution (Dilfer's opinion)

You keep dreaming about this stuff to vanish -- it will not in your lifetime. Your dinasour cliches is part of the problem with arrogant coordinators like Capers, LebEau, Kiffin, etc. Guys like Belichek and Carroll learn, adapt and introduce it to their offenses.

And her in lies your problem. You watch ESPN. It's something to talk about. Those guys are going to get hurt. Mark it down.

[ThunderDan]

RGIII is stupid for not covering up properly.


How so? What did RGIII do?

[rbaloha1]

And her in lies your problem. You watch ESPN. It's something to talk about. Those guys are going to get hurt. Mark it down.

Where does your football stuff come from? The bar room, vegas, where?:trll:

[mraynrand]

It would represent a seismic shift in the makeup of the human body, for guys to not get hurt doing things guys have gotten hurt doing since the beginning of time. RGIII didn't last. Russell Wilson is 5'10", built like a RB, he's more likely to sustain running the ball (about as likely as a RB his size, anyway.) CK is a passer first. They opened up running in the playoffs, and good for them. It was the right thing to do. It was a risk I would have taken too. I've said every year, I hope to see AR run more in the post season.


I agree completely on the longevity aspect. The seismic shift I was considering is whether you start getting more RO QBs coming up from the college ranks. And if their longevity is reduced, you need more of them. If Rbahola is right, offenses will use it sparingly to save their QBs - but then that falls into the category of 'threat' to run, rather than a primary weapon. It's an interesting trade-off, and to be sure, if physically and mentally capable QBs are more abundant, it will be here to stay, at some significant level.

[Patler]

This is valid except in the read option qbs are not protected once they decide to run.

Generally read option qbs to a good job of protecting themselves and do not have stupid machismo to prove anything. Even TT does not run the read option like he did at Florida as a freshman.

My point is the distinction will become blurred, and the protections that QBs now receive will be lessened whether by player conduct, rule interpretation or rule changes themselves. Neither defenders nor officials have on/off switches as to their conduct or interpretations based on if the QB decides to keep or not keep the ball. The more a QB keeps, the less he will be protected even when he doesn't keep, maybe even when he simply drops back to pass.

Vick has complained about that in the past with respect to hits on him.

[rbaloha1]

How so? What did RGIII do?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/redskins/2013/01/06/dr-james-andrews-disputes-coach-mike-shanahans-version-of-washington-redskins-quarterback-robert-griffin-iii-knee-injury/1811689/

Forgot that part of the problem was reentering the game when he should have come out of the game.

[mraynrand]

There is another side to this that people are not considering.

For the last few years, by rule and by rule interpretation the NFL has attempted to protect QBs at all cost. A lot of it has been based on the belief that QBs were runners only by happenstance. If OCs attempt to take advantage of that by designing more and more plays for intentional carries by the QB, those protections will be lessened, either by rule change or by interpretation. They can't have their cake and eat it too. Close calls now go to QBs. They won't in the future. QBs will be treated like football players again.

QB's racking up run after run, and repeatedly showing up defenders with semi-taunts like bicep flexes, bicep kisses, and maybe even "the belt" will become targets. For the last 3-4 years defenders have been retraining themselves to back off when they get close to a QB. Instead of tackling violently, they tend to tackle them easily, because they are so heavily scrutinized when hitting a QB. But, if QBs continue to rack up huge days running the ball, that will be reversed. Defenders will not back off when getting close to tackling a Kaepernick, but will remind him of the game he is playing. They will risk the penalty that might come with it. I also suspect the NFL will look less harshly on hits up field than hits in the pocket.

Again, you can't expect a QB to be treated with kid gloves, then use him like a running back. Defensive players won't allow it. I suspect that neither will officials or the league.

Good point, but knowing today's NFL, they will just have QBs wear a special pinnie/modified uniform during games, like during practice, and give them special protection regardless of where they are on the field.

[ThunderDan]

QBs hurt in week 10 of 2012 season.

Jay Cutler
Ben Roethlisberger
Michael Vick
Alex Smith

[ThunderDan]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/redskins/2013/01/06/dr-james-andrews-disputes-coach-mike-shanahans-version-of-washington-redskins-quarterback-robert-griffin-iii-knee-injury/1811689/

Forgot that part of the problem was reentering the game when he should have come out of the game.

What is he going to learn?

[ThunderDan]

41 QBs threw more than 25 times last year.
39 QBs threw more than 75 times last year.

[rbaloha1]

What is he going to learn?

RGIII took too many unnecessary shots. Run out of bounds or slide. Do not play scared -- play smart.

Can not always have a hurdler's mentality.

[rbaloha1]

QBs hurt in week 10 of 2012 season.

Jay Cutler
Ben Roethlisberger
Michael Vick
Alex Smith

All pocket passers.

[ThunderDan]

All pocket passers.

Do SF, WASH and SEA never have their QB pass out of the pocket? Mike Vick might disagree with your assessment.

[rbaloha1]

Do SF, WASH and SEA never have their QB pass out of the pocket? Mike Vick might disagree with your assessment.

Vick is currently a pocket passer. Do not understand your anal question.

[cheesner]

If your defense is solely worry about a kill shot on the qb you will not contain the offense.

How do you counter when a team has a protector around the qb to counter your guys continual charade of killing qb?

IS KILLING THE QB YOU ONLY DEFENSE AGAINST SPREAD OPTION?Now who is the one in denial?

Are you saying that a running QB is not putting himself at greater risk than a QB who stays mostly in the pocket?

Nobody is saying that you should go out on a 'continual charade of killing' a QB. The point is, if a QB runs a dozen times per game, maybe not that game; maybe not the next; but sooner or later the QB is making a move on one guy and doesn't see the other guy flying at him from his blind spot. That guy is a bit pissed off at getting beat a few times already, and he takes a completely legal shot and CK is done.

The defense against a 'spread option' is an athletic, quick, disciplined front 7. We may have been far better against CK if we had Perry healthy last season, let alone now having Jones and maybe Bishop available.

[Upnorth]

Now who is the one in denial?

Are you saying that a running QB is not putting himself at greater risk than a QB who stays mostly in the pocket?

Nobody is saying that you should go out on a 'continual charade of killing' a QB. The point is, if a QB runs a dozen times per game, maybe not that game; maybe not the next; but sooner or later the QB is making a move on one guy and doesn't see the other guy flying at him from his blind spot. That guy is a bit pissed off at getting beat a few times already, and he takes a completely legal shot and CK is done.

The defense against a 'spread option' is an athletic, quick, disciplined front 7. We may have been far better against CK if we had Perry healthy last season, let alone now having Jones and maybe Bishop available.

Excellent response and repped appropriatly.

[rbaloha1]

Now who is the one in denial?

Are you saying that a running QB is not putting himself at greater risk than a QB who stays mostly in the pocket?

Nobody is saying that you should go out on a 'continual charade of killing' a QB. The point is, if a QB runs a dozen times per game, maybe not that game; maybe not the next; but sooner or later the QB is making a move on one guy and doesn't see the other guy flying at him from his blind spot. That guy is a bit pissed off at getting beat a few times already, and he takes a completely legal shot and CK is done.

The defense against a 'spread option' is an athletic, quick, disciplined front 7. We may have been far better against CK if we had Perry healthy last season, let alone now having Jones and maybe Bishop available.

Where did I say that? Pocket passers are also in jeopardy of getting hurt. Your anal buddies keep retorting with killing the qb rather than strategy.

How many sack and hits did a-rod have in the pocket also risking injury.

YOU CAN NOT SAY READ OPTION QBS ARE MORE AT RISK FOR GETTING HURT THAN POCKET QBS DROPPING BACK TO PASS.

[rbaloha1]

Excellent response and repped appropriatly.

Repped for ego boosting drunken sailors.

[rbaloha1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guG2vd-uAfY

A-rod has been sacked 211 times from 2010 - 2012 on top of the hits.

[rbaloha1]

Now who is the one in denial?

Are you saying that a running QB is not putting himself at greater risk than a QB who stays mostly in the pocket?

Nobody is saying that you should go out on a 'continual charade of killing' a QB. The point is, if a QB runs a dozen times per game, maybe not that game; maybe not the next; but sooner or later the QB is making a move on one guy and doesn't see the other guy flying at him from his blind spot. That guy is a bit pissed off at getting beat a few times already, and he takes a completely legal shot and CK is done.

The defense against a 'spread option' is an athletic, quick, disciplined front 7. We may have been far better against CK if we had Perry healthy last season, let alone now having Jones and maybe Bishop available.

Should we not drive cars because something bad can happen?

Your contention about the front seven is pure speculation. Based on the most recent events you are completely wrong.

[cheesner]

Where did I say that? Pocket passers are also in jeopardy of getting hurt. Your anal buddies keep retorting with killing the qb rather than strategy.

How many sack and hits did a-rod have in the pocket also risking injury.

YOU CAN NOT SAY READ OPTION QBS ARE MORE AT RISK FOR GETTING HURT THAN POCKET QBS DROPPPING BACK TO PASS.

YES I CAN!!!!!! I AM RIGHT BECAUSE MY TEXT IS BIGGER


I state: Are you saying that a running QB is not putting himself at greater risk than a QB who stays mostly in the pocket?

You ask, 'Where did I say that?'

Then in big letters you say drop back passers are at the same risk as Option QBs.

Whatever


Should we not drive cars because something bad can happen?

Your contention about the front seven is pure speculation. Based on the most recent events you are completely wrong.
More of a common sense thing than speculation. It is derived from football knowledge, understanding of strategy; and logic/reasoning. It is not based just on hatred of Dom Capers and Ted Thompson.

[rbaloha1]

YES I CAN!!!!!! I AM RIGHT BECAUSE MY TEXT IS BIGGER

More of a common sense thing.

Whatever turns you on hotshot:alc:

[pbmax]

Funny, I was going to post this article in support of what many have said:
-GB wasn't prepared because SF had not used it much previously
-pro teams will beat up QBs as much as they can
-the physical beating of QBs could make this short-lived
-defenses always catch up

I guess I was wrong?

Nope, dead on. The section on assignment football versus the option was a point that got lost in the rush to declare the Packers Defense a vast wasteland of Pansies.

But rb does have a point when he paraphrased the DC who worked with UW's Aranda. The college game does offer more packages that are designed to stifle the defense's ability to predict and matchup to an offense based on personnel, down and distance and tendency.

The 49ers take advantage of this by using their personnel in creative ways and usually having an option to run or pass at a defense at any time. The 49ers were remarked since Harbaugh's arrival for their ability to run and pass equally from multiple formations. Delanie Walker was a big part of that. A FB that could block and go wide to run a wheel route.

The Packers do this in smaller doses, they have run-pass options and they run a stick-draw.

But the 49ers Read Option was successful not because of a threat to pass off that option action, it was effective because the Packers simply failed to counter a standard play out of it.

Which is the lone remaining weird thing about the Packer performance in that game. When Capers called off the dogs in the 2nd half to stop CK from scrambling, it SHOULD have made them more secure versus the Read Option. But it didn't. It didn't help at all or made it worse.

[rbaloha1]

Nope, dead on. The section on assignment football versus the option was a point that got lost in the rush to declare the Packers Defense a vast wasteland of Pansies.

But rb does have a point when he paraphrased the DC who worked with UW's Aranda. The college game does offer more packages that are designed to stifle the defense's ability to predict and matchup to an offense based on personnel, down and distance and tendency.

The 49ers take advantage of this by using their personnel in creative ways and usually having an option to run or pass at a defense at any time. The 49ers were remarked since Harbaugh's arrival for their ability to run and pass equally from multiple formations. Delanie Walker was a big part of that. A FB that could block and go wide to run a wheel route.

The Packers do this in smaller doses, they have run-pass options and they run a stick-draw.

But the 49ers Read Option was successful not because of a threat to pass off that option action, it was effective because the Packers simply failed to counter a standard play out of it.

Which is the lone remaining weird thing about the Packer performance in that game. When Capers called off the dogs in the 2nd half to stop CK from scrambling, it SHOULD have made them more secure versus the Read Option. But it didn't. It didn't help at all or made it worse.

Number One it starts with CK's unique skill set. Alex Smith ran similar stuff at Utah with Urban Meyer but probably could not do it in the NFL. Sports Science showed CK's release to be the quickest release in the history of the NFL.

Number 2 the offensive line is so good that any offense works. The offense was good with Smith but CK takes it to another level. A better d-line can contain this type offense as evidenced by Auburn and LSU beating Oregon.

[pbmax]

This is valid except in the read option qbs are not protected once they decide to run.

Once they decide to run it is an easy call. But if teams run the read option and then pass, it could get interesting for the refs.

[rbaloha1]

Once they decide to run it is an easy call. But if teams run the read option and then pass, it could get interesting for the refs.

If they run option first then dropback within the pocket qbs are still protected. Agree that it could present future issues.

[George Cumby]

" ....that quarterback is going to be taken out on a stretcher."

Read option = Raphus cucullatus = Fad.

[rbaloha1]

" ....that quarterback is going to be taken out on a stretcher."

Read option = Raphus cucullatus = Fad.

What is your contention for this statement?

[George Cumby]

The quote is from one of the college coaches who was brain-dumping to the Packers D coaches.

The genus specific name is that of the Dodo bird.

I believe that only a small percentage of QB's actually have the requisite skill set to be a viable double threat, run-pass, in the pros. Those few will be exposed to more contact, more often and more violently than their pocket brethren. It's a matter of exposure time/opportunity; more hits, more violence, more trauma = more injuries. QB's are not a disposable commodity, teams which treat their star players as such will pay the price in the long-term. I for one, believe that RGIII's career will most likely be shortened due to his youthful enthusiasm and his coach's myopia. I'm not going out on a limb when I predict that neither Wilson or Kaepernick plays all 16 games; they will miss time and probably significant time.

Bottom line is getting your QB's wrecked is bad coaching and, probably more importantly, bad business.

[wist43]

In the opener, I don't think it will matter that Capers has watched a clip or two on how to defend the read/option... the Niners will run what they run, and they'll run it down our throats just like they did twice last year.

I expect they'll run different plays out of that formation, Capers will get his ass waxed again, and have no idea how to adjust. I'm expecting 40+ points, and 500+ yards again. It will be doubly embarrassing this time around, as everyone will say - "... didn't they learn anything from the last ass whoopin they took??", lol...

In fantasy?? Start every Niner you can... including the center.

[Upnorth]

Should we not drive cars because something bad can happen?

Your contention about the front seven is pure speculation. Based on the most recent events you are completely wrong.

No one is saying not to drive, but there are incentives to drive safe. Read option has a higher risk than a pocket passer but some will take that risk.

Btw the large text tantrums really weakened your points.

[George Cumby]

In the opener, I don't think it will matter that Capers has watched a clip or two on how to defend the read/option... the Niners will run what they run, and they'll run it down our throats just like they did twice last year.

I expect they'll run different plays out of that formation, Capers will get his ass waxed again, and have no idea how to adjust. I'm expecting 40+ points, and 500+ yards again. It will be doubly embarrassing this time around, as everyone will say - "... didn't they learn anything from the last ass whoopin they took??", lol...

In fantasy?? Start every Niner you can... including the center.

My real concern in that game is that badass OLine of theirs. They are big, mean and tough and I don't see that we have the horses up front to hold the line.

The Pack might win in a shoot out, but at this time, it is June, after all, I think the Niners win.

[wist43]

My real concern in that game is that badass OLine of theirs. They are big, mean and tough and I don't see that we have the horses up front to hold the line.

The Pack might win in a shoot out, but at this time, it is June, after all, I think the Niners win.

Yeah, it's June... but we know what we have, and we know what they have - we might be a little better b/c we get people back, but we weren't really competetive in either one of those games last year - not that much has changed, and we still have Damien as our DC.

We've been beaten up by physical teams pretty consistently over the past few years... the KC game a couple of years ago set the tone. A terrible team that simply beat the living hell out of us physcially, and we couldn't stand up to it - still can't.

TT and MM prefer all things finesse - that hasn't changed. They're going to stomp us again... I expect I'll be heading to the golf course by halftime.

[Bossman641]

Certainly a defensive coordinator strategy to blow up the qb is viable but it takes away another defender. The 49ers also have Walker as a protector to account for this.

Capers is not a dinasour -- what was his answer to the niners? Why was he forced to consult with new age d-coordinators?

Its obvious you do not understand strategy and result to cave man retorts.

Walker? Delanie Walker? He's on the Titans.

[Bossman641]

Yeah, it's June... but we know what we have, and we know what they have - we might be a little better b/c we get people back, but we weren't really competetive in either one of those games last year - not that much has changed, and we still have Damien as our DC.

We've been beaten up by physical teams pretty consistently over the past few years... the KC game a couple of years ago set the tone. A terrible team that simply beat the living hell out of us physcially, and we couldn't stand up to it - still can't.

TT and MM prefer all things finesse - that hasn't changed. They're going to stomp us again... I expect I'll be heading to the golf course by halftime.

Are you talking offensively or defensively? Orton had a good game but they didn't exactly run it down our throat. Offensively; we were missing Jennings, Starks, and then had Bulaga and Sherrod go down with injuries. On top of that I think we were missing Clifton as well.

[3irty1]

In the opener, I don't think it will matter that Capers has watched a clip or two on how to defend the read/option... the Niners will run what they run, and they'll run it down our throats just like they did twice last year.

I expect they'll run different plays out of that formation, Capers will get his ass waxed again, and have no idea how to adjust. I'm expecting 40+ points, and 500+ yards again. It will be doubly embarrassing this time around, as everyone will say - "... didn't they learn anything from the last ass whoopin they took??", lol...

In fantasy?? Start every Niner you can... including the center.

You'll get an easy chance to double your money that week in vegas.

[pbmax]

If they run option first then dropback within the pocket qbs are still protected. Agree that it could present future issues.

Its future issues, but the rule might need to be clarified. As written it probably envisions a QB converting from a passer to a runner, but probably not a runner to a passer. The really fun question is what is he at the moment of the mesh.

[rbaloha1]

No one is saying not to drive, but there are incentives to drive safe. Read option has a higher risk than a pocket passer but some will take that risk.

Btw the large text tantrums really weakened your points.



That is your opinion. I have heard other ex-qbs state that read option qbs have a better chance to see defenders (avoid the hit by sliding or running out of bounds) as opposed to pocket qbs getting hit from the blind side.

Your smaller font does not strengthen your point:-D

[rbaloha1]

The quote is from one of the college coaches who was brain-dumping to the Packers D coaches.

The genus specific name is that of the Dodo bird.

I believe that only a small percentage of QB's actually have the requisite skill set to be a viable double threat, run-pass, in the pros. Those few will be exposed to more contact, more often and more violently than their pocket brethren. It's a matter of exposure time/opportunity; more hits, more violence, more trauma = more injuries. QB's are not a disposable commodity, teams which treat their star players as such will pay the price in the long-term. I for one, believe that RGIII's career will most likely be shortened due to his youthful enthusiasm and his coach's myopia. I'm not going out on a limb when I predict that neither Wilson or Kaepernick plays all 16 games; they will miss time and probably significant time.

Bottom line is getting your QB's wrecked is bad coaching and, probably more importantly, bad business.

One man's opinion but other college coaches like Urban Meyer think otherwise.

[rbaloha1]

In the opener, I don't think it will matter that Capers has watched a clip or two on how to defend the read/option... the Niners will run what they run, and they'll run it down our throats just like they did twice last year.

I expect they'll run different plays out of that formation, Capers will get his ass waxed again, and have no idea how to adjust. I'm expecting 40+ points, and 500+ yards again. It will be doubly embarrassing this time around, as everyone will say - "... didn't they learn anything from the last ass whoopin they took??", lol...

In fantasy?? Start every Niner you can... including the center.

Expect the niners to run more conventional stuff early in the game and disguise read option stuff later in the game to catch the packers in a favorable scheme.

[rbaloha1]

The quote is from one of the college coaches who was brain-dumping to the Packers D coaches.

The genus specific name is that of the Dodo bird.

I believe that only a small percentage of QB's actually have the requisite skill set to be a viable double threat, run-pass, in the pros. Those few will be exposed to more contact, more often and more violently than their pocket brethren. It's a matter of exposure time/opportunity; more hits, more violence, more trauma = more injuries. QB's are not a disposable commodity, teams which treat their star players as such will pay the price in the long-term. I for one, believe that RGIII's career will most likely be shortened due to his youthful enthusiasm and his coach's myopia. I'm not going out on a limb when I predict that neither Wilson or Kaepernick plays all 16 games; they will miss time and probably significant time.

Bottom line is getting your QB's wrecked is bad coaching and, probably more importantly, bad business.

How many colleges are running this stuff?

How many new qbs are entering the league with this skill set: atkins, manuel, manzel (maybe next year)., etc.

Keep going with Neanderthal cliches.

[pbmax]

NFL QBs still need to be capable of NFL throws. The 49ers don't win if Kap or Smith isn't efficient in the passing game. Nor does Wilson, RGIII or Newton.

A lot of college QBs who can run are not accurate enough throwers. The distances are longer, the windows shorter and the time in the pocket less.

That said, there is probably an entire class of QBs who are close to traditional NFL QBs in throwing ability. And if they can run, that might now be enough.

[rbaloha1]

NFL QBs still need to be capable of NFL throws. The 49ers don't win if Kap or Smith isn't efficient in the passing game. Nor does Wilson, RGIII or Newton.

A lot of college QBs who can run are not accurate enough throwers. The distances are longer, the windows shorter and the time in the pocket less.

That said, there is probably an entire class of QBs who are close to traditional NFL QBs in throwing ability. And if they can run, that might now be enough.

You are repping what I said from day one -- qbs currently running read option all can throw from the pocket. Throwing from the pocket remains important.

However Tebow had playoff success without being able to throw. How do traditionalists/denialists/apologists explain this one?:whist:

[George Cumby]

You are repping what I said from day one -- qbs currently running read option all can throw from the pocket. Throwing from the pocket remains important.

However Tebow had playoff success without being able to throw. How do traditionalists/denialists/apologists explain this one?:whist:

Come on. Tebow? The guy couldn't beat out Mark fucking Sanchez last season.

[rbaloha1]

Come on. Tebow? The guy couldn't beat out Mark fucking Sanchez last season.

What happened with the Broncos during the playoff run?:?: BTW TT is built to absorb nfl punishment but is smart enough to avoid hits when possible.

[rbaloha1]

Come on. Tebow? The guy couldn't beat out Mark fucking Sanchez last season.

The team is built for a pocket passer not a read option type qb.

[Teamcheez1]

The team is built for a pocket passer not a read option type qb.

Career 47.9% passer. Read option or pocket passer, he can't throw.

[rbaloha1]

Career 47.9% passer. Read option or pocket passer, he can't throw.

We know that -- why did Tebow have success?

How did he beat the Steelers in the playoffs?

[3irty1]

The crop of young QB's that just came into the league with the 2011 and 2012 draft class are the revolution here so far not the read-option. Those guys are NFL-ready passers and have exceptional football IQ for this point in their careers. On top of that they're all super mobile. But when you can pass, you should pass and the read option when used properly will aid in that as a wrinkle in a multiples offense used sparingly as San Fran and Seattle do. Often in the NFL threatening to do something is often as good as actually doing it so the health threat to QB's will be minimal IMO. Offenses that rely on it heavily as in Carolina and Washington are doing it wrong IMO as they have guys that don't need the read-option to be successful and would benefit from using less of it.

A system that depends on a 1st or 2nd overall talent can't be a revolution. The read option could become a revolution IMO but to qualify it as that a team would have to run it with dime-a-dozen dual-threat guys like Pat White or Seneca Wallace and show they can consistently compete with the Eli Manning-caliber guys by making up for the disparity in passing ability by leveraging their guys' wheels. That could happen IMO if an offense would commit to it. So far the best example is Tebow in 2011 but that was for half a season and an inconsistent, full-on underdog strategy that ultimately culminated in being super-trounced by the Pats in the 2nd round. If I was a QB-less team in the NFL I might give it a shot.

[rbaloha1]

The crop of young QB's that just came into the league with the 2011 and 2012 draft class are the revolution here so far not the read-option. Those guys are NFL-ready passers and have exceptional football IQ for this point in their careers. On top of that they're all super mobile. But when you can pass, you should pass and the read option when used properly will aid in that as a wrinkle in a multiples offense used sparingly as San Fran and Seattle do. Often in the NFL threatening to do something is often as good as actually doing it so the health threat to QB's will be minimal IMO. Offenses that rely on it heavily as in Carolina and Washington are doing it wrong IMO as they have guys that don't need the read-option to be successful and would benefit from using less of it.

A system that depends on a 1st or 2nd overall talent can't be a revolution. The read option could become a revolution IMO but to qualify it as that a team would have to run it with dime-a-dozen dual-threat guys like Pat White or Seneca Wallace and show they can consistently compete with the Eli Manning-caliber guys by making up for the disparity in passing ability by leveraging their guys' wheels. That could happen IMO if an offense would commit to it. So far the best example is Tebow in 2011 but that was for half a season and an inconsistent, full-on underdog strategy that ultimately culminated in being super-trounced by the Pats in the 2nd round. If I was a QB-less team in the NFL I might give it a shot.

Good hedge braddah.

[Upnorth]

We know that -- why did Tebow have success?

How did he beat the Steelers in the playoffs?

I wonder how much statements like this motivate the bronco's team. If there is one thing I dislike about Tebow coverage is that many spin it as strictly a Tebow thing, not a team thing.
If we are saying Tebow beat them , then it is because the steelers defense stopped being disciplined, got aggresive and bit on the wrong plays. If they had stayed disciplined the game would have come out differently.
Discipline does not bring glory to the defence, but does win games. Lack of discipline creates oppertunity for the offence to exploit, as shown in the Packers 49ers playoff game, and the broncos steelers game we are talking of now.

[rbaloha1]

I wonder how much statements like this motivate the bronco's team. If there is one thing I dislike about Tebow coverage is that many spin it as strictly a Tebow thing, not a team thing.
If we are saying Tebow beat them , then it is because the steelers defense stopped being disciplined, got aggresive and bit on the wrong plays. If they had stayed disciplined the game would have come out differently.
Discipline does not bring glory to the defence, but does win games. Lack of discipline creates oppertunity for the offence to exploit, as shown in the Packers 49ers playoff game, and the broncos steelers game we are talking of now.

Demonstrates the beauty/difficulty of defensing read option against a competent read option qb.

[ThunderDan]

Hopefully we will be able to bump this post week 1 of the 2013 season just like we did with the MM threads after the Super Bowl victory.

[Bossman641]

We know that -- why did Tebow have success?

How did he beat the Steelers in the playoffs?

Who the fuck cares? Do they hand out trophies for advancing past Wild Card weekend now? The Broncos beat Pittsburgh because they hit on some big plays and their defense harassed Roethlisberger all game. Even in arguably Tebow's best game ever he STILL didn't complete 50% of his passes.

And what happened the next week? NE demolished Denver.

[rbaloha1]

Who the fuck cares? Do they hand out trophies for advancing past Wild Card weekend now? The Broncos beat Pittsburgh because they hit on some big plays and their defense harassed Roethlisberger all game. Even in arguably Tebow's best game ever he STILL didn't complete 50% of his passes.

And what happened the next week? NE demolished Denver.

Year 1 -- tebow playoffs
Year 1 -- wilson playoffs
Year 1 -- rgiii playoffs
Year 1 -- ck super bowl

The denial continues ...

[rbaloha1]

Who the fuck cares? Do they hand out trophies for advancing past Wild Card weekend now? The Broncos beat Pittsburgh because they hit on some big plays and their defense harassed Roethlisberger all game. Even in arguably Tebow's best game ever he STILL didn't complete 50% of his passes.

And what happened the next week? NE demolished Denver.

The point is the success of a read option qb that can not throw.

A read option qb that can throw went to the super bowl.

[mraynrand]

A read option qb that can throw went to the super bowl.

And lost because, when it mattered, he didn't throw well and his coach didn't let him run. Will be interesting to see whether, faced with a similar situation, CK will run it - and be able to after a season of preparation by defenses. Will his passing improve? Exciting times in the NFL indeed.

[Bossman641]

Year 1 -- tebow playoffs
Year 1 -- wilson playoffs
Year 1 -- rgiii playoffs
Year 1 -- ck super bowl

The denial continues ...

Not even sure why I'm starting cause it's been proven debating with you is akin to debating a brick wall, but here goes.

I think the spread can be an excellent complement to a 'normal' NFL offense. I don't believe it's this great, unsolvable mystery you make it out to be. Wilson, RG3, and Kaepernick make it work because they are efficient passers first and foremost.

I think it's much more likely Capers, the D staff, and the players got caught with their pants down and will adjust then it is that the read option is unstoppable and we will only see 50-45 point games in the NFL.

[wist43]

You'll get an easy chance to double your money that week in vegas.

Vegas already has week 1 lines out, the Niners are favored by 5.5 pts.

I think that's low - I wouldn't bet the over/unders, but I'd definitely bet the Niners at 5.5... don't see us being able to compete with them.

If it were only a matter of x's and o's - we should have zigged instead of zagged... then you could argue all we need do is clean that stuff up, and we'd be competetive with them; but that isn't the case, they simply dominated us in every way possible. Not enough has changed between the two teams to overcome that.

We're already 0-1... so after the game, hopefully MM and TT will finally figure out they need to sit Damien down and have a heart-to-heart.

[Bossman641]

The point is the success of a read option qb that can not throw.

A read option qb that can throw went to the super bowl.

One game and one half season of Tebow does not make a trend.

Rex Grossman went to the Super Bowl too. Are turnover prone, inaccurate passers the wave of the future?

http://i.imgur.com/YRRGS.jpg

[Zool]

Are we really talking about Tebow again? He's garbage. Flat out garbage. He was like 4 for 12 heading in to the second half (I can't find the quarter splits right now). Comparing Tebow to ANY of the young guys who can actually throw a ball is an insult to all of them. He's exactly on par with Pat White. There's a reason Pat White isn't a starting QB in the NFL just as there's a reason Tim Tebow isn't a starting QB in the NFL.

For the record, that playoff game was in his second season. But facts aren't well thought of around here lately.

[mraynrand]

If it were only a matter of x's and o's - we should have zigged instead of zagged... then you could argue all we need do is clean that stuff up, and we'd be competetive with them; but that isn't the case, they simply dominated us in every way possible. Not enough has changed between the two teams to overcome that.

A lot has changed, the question is whether it will be ready, be enough. Just getting rid of Walden and Woodson is a huge step in the right direction. Now Hayward has to be that guy, when called on. Perry and Datone Jones have to be effective. Just those changes could be enough to alter the entire complexion of the game. Add in a possible Neal wrinkle for run stopping/pass rush options that confuse the Niner offense, and the Packers really could compete. A little luck with O-line health, and they can maybe exert some ball control, clock killing domination of their own. Will be exciting to be sure.

[mraynrand]

Are we really talking about Tebow again? He's garbage. Flat out garbage. He was like 4 for 12 heading in to the second half (I can't find the quarter splits right now). Comparing Tebow to ANY of the young guys who can actually throw a ball is an insult to all of them.

QFT. Tebow is a leader of men, but he has a high school arm.

[3irty1]

Vegas already has week 1 lines out, the Niners are favored by 5.5 pts.

I think that's low - I wouldn't bet the over/unders, but I'd definitely bet the Niners at 5.5... don't see us being able to compete with them.

If it were only a matter of x's and o's - we should have zigged instead of zagged... then you could argue all we need do is clean that stuff up, and we'd be competetive with them; but that isn't the case, they simply dominated us in every way possible. Not enough has changed between the two teams to overcome that.

We're already 0-1... so after the game, hopefully MM and TT will finally figure out they need to sit Damien down and have a heart-to-heart.

I'm not disagreeing but I'm not going to speak in absolutes or talk about betting on the 9ers like its a can't-miss investment either. I agree its a lousy matchup, but I'm never surprised by a Packers win. Their best is more than good enough.

[mraynrand]

I agree its a lousy matchup, but I'm never surprised by a Packers win. Their best is more than good enough.

why hold contrary opinions in your head. Holy, hedging, Batman! It's a lousy matchup if you assume everything from last year stays the same and/or you assume the Niners are just that much better an organization than the Packers.

[3irty1]

why hold contrary opinions in your head. Holy, hedging, Batman! It's a lousy matchup if you assume everything from last year stays the same and/or you assume the Niners are just that much better an organization than the Packers.

Can't just some of the things from last year stay the same?

[mraynrand]

Can't just some of the things from last year stay the same?

sure they can. But will all the Packer weaknesses be the same? Injuries, age, inexperience at critical positions all over again? It's possible there will be new ones, but there will be for the Niners as well. For example, It's entirely possible CK will have a 'sophomore' slump due to some serious offseason game planning.

[pbmax]

You are repping what I said from day one -- qbs currently running read option all can throw from the pocket. Throwing from the pocket remains important.

However Tebow had playoff success without being able to throw. How do traditionalists/denialists/apologists explain this one?:whist:

If by current read option QBs you mean the current four (CK, RG3, Newton and Wilson) then you simple have taken a select sample, looked at it over a very short period of time and reached a conclusion your data is not strong enough to support. Also, Wilson ran very little read option (and not before the 2nd half of the year) and was mainly a mobile pocket passer who could run ala Rodgers.

If by QB currently running read option you mean the current crop of college athletes as well, we don't know how they will do. What we do know is that most won't make it and many of them will be unable to cut it as an NFL passer. Tebow is the Poster Boy for this. Scott Brunner won one playoff game as well, so that tells us nothing.

[3irty1]

sure they can. But will all the Packer weaknesses be the same? Injuries, age, inexperience at critical positions all over again? It's possible there will be new ones, but there will be for the Niners as well. For example, It's entirely possible CK will have a 'sophomore' slump due to some serious offseason game planning.

I seen no reason to believe the 9ers are not still a run-first team with an elite offensive line. That alone is a bad matchup as it makes for a shorter game where entropy plays a larger role. Of course there is a lot of uncertainty because its football and its the offseason. A lot of things are entirely possible which just supports my position that its silly to speak in absolutes as if the Packers had already lost. Sounds like you'd hedge a bet against the Packers as well.

[mraynrand]

I seen no reason to believe the 9ers are not still a run-first team with an elite offensive line. That alone is a bad matchup as it makes for a shorter game where entropy plays a larger role. Of course there is a lot of uncertainty because its football and its the offseason. A lot of things are entirely possible which just supports my position that its silly to speak in absolutes as if the Packers had already lost. Sounds like you'd hedge a bet against the Packers as well.


I just don't think it's a lousy matchup

[3irty1]

I just don't think it's a lousy matchup

Compared to what?

[pbmax]

Year 1 -- tebow playoffs
Year 1 -- wilson playoffs
Year 1 -- rgiii playoffs
Year 1 -- ck super bowl

The denial continues ...

You cannot call Wilson a read option guy. He didn't run it in college and it wasn't a part of their offense until after mid-season.

And there is no mention of Cam Newton. No playoffs for him. You are just cherry picking.

[mraynrand]

Compared to what?
2012 was a lousy matchup. So 2012 compared to 2013, which should be better, given some reasonable expectations of improvement due to maybe two rookies, a few second year players, and return of injured players. I bet some will disagree due to things like the loss of Jennings and (seems more likely) Bishop, and the incompetence of TT in not drafting a Wilfork-like DT.

[RashanGary]

Justin Smith is the 5th oldest DL in the NFL. He's bound to drop off sooner than later. They lost Dashon Gholston. Frank Gore is a RB over 30. They lost Crabtree for a good chunk of the season.

They have a lot of young drafted talent this year. CK looks like a young star (I think he's going to be a passing QB, not a running QB. I think they ran him a ton in the playoffs because he's young and they wanted to win now. In the long run, I don't think they'll use him that way. In the playoffs, sure, but regular season, I think he'll play a similar style to AR. And I do think he can be a great traditional style QB too.) They have a healthy cap situation.

The 49ers have some things that could fall off RIGHT NOW. They have some things that make you think they'll be good for a long time. I would consider this year for them similar to 2011-2012 for us. They have a few things that I don't think they'll be able to fix right away, but a lot of things in order to where they have a real nice window to put together a SB winner or two in the next few years.



I think the Packers are hitting another peak within their window. RB's tend to play well right away. We brought in Eddie Lacy, a guy who could be a big-time piece for us. We continue to add talent to our DL and we're not losing anyone. It's just a matter of time before one or more of those guys hit their stride. Our OL has a bunch of guys entering the primes of their careers. While it's not a great group, it is a group that is poised to be better than they've been. AR has Cobb, Nelson, Jones and Finley to throw to, as well as some other high-potential players.

I actually think the Packers are on a little bit of an up-swing and the niners on a mini-downswing. I think both teams have excellent talent, excellent cap management, excellent coaching. . . . I'd call both elite. But within these windows, I think the Packers are hitting a better part of theirs and the 9ers, a slight lul (although still an excellent team.)

[rbaloha1]

You cannot call Wilson a read option guy. He didn't run it in college and it wasn't a part of their offense until after mid-season.

And there is no mention of Cam Newton. No playoffs for him. You are just cherry picking.

One dude -- how many pocket passers did not make the playoffs?

Higher percentage of read option guys mr. cherrypicker:-?

[rbaloha1]

One game and one half season of Tebow does not make a trend.

Rex Grossman went to the Super Bowl too. Are turnover prone, inaccurate passers the wave of the future?

http://i.imgur.com/YRRGS.jpg

Keep being ridiculous:jack:

[rbaloha1]

You cannot call Wilson a read option guy. He didn't run it in college and it wasn't a part of their offense until after mid-season.

And there is no mention of Cam Newton. No playoffs for him. You are just cherry picking.

RW not a read option guy -- what a crybaby:violin:

[pbmax]

RW not a read option guy -- what a crybaby:violin:

You just really don't know what you don't know, do you?

[Bossman641]

You just really don't know what you don't know, do you?

I'll give RB some credit. The Seahawks began running read option about 75% of the way through the year. But again, they used it in packages, not down in down out like RB thinks.

[rbaloha1]

I'll give RB some credit. The Seahawks began running read option about 75% of the way through the year. But again, they used it in packages, not down in down out like RB thinks.

EVERYBODY USES IT IN PACKAGES

Where did I ever imply it was the dominant part of the offense? You guys always stretch the truth for your personal agendas.

[rbaloha1]

You just really don't know what you don't know, do you?

Dude -- give me your paypal account info and I will give you $1000 to spare us from your garbage about the read option stuff.

[George Cumby]

Justin Smith is the 5th oldest DL in the NFL. He's bound to drop off sooner than later. They lost Dashon Gholston. Frank Gore is a RB over 30. They lost Crabtree for a good chunk of the season.

They have a lot of young drafted talent this year. CK looks like a young star (I think he's going to be a passing QB, not a running QB. I think they ran him a ton in the playoffs because he's young and they wanted to win now. In the long run, I don't think they'll use him that way. In the playoffs, sure, but regular season, I think he'll play a similar style to AR. And I do think he can be a great traditional style QB too.) They have a healthy cap situation.

The 49ers have some things that could fall off RIGHT NOW. They have some things that make you think they'll be good for a long time. I would consider this year for them similar to 2011-2012 for us. They have a few things that I don't think they'll be able to fix right away, but a lot of things in order to where they have a real nice window to put together a SB winner or two in the next few years.



I think the Packers are hitting another peak within their window. RB's tend to play well right away. We brought in Eddie Lacy, a guy who could be a big-time piece for us. We continue to add talent to our DL and we're not losing anyone. It's just a matter of time before one or more of those guys hit their stride. Our OL has a bunch of guys entering the primes of their careers. While it's not a great group, it is a group that is poised to be better than they've been. AR has Cobb, Nelson, Jones and Finley to throw to, as well as some other high-potential players.

I actually think the Packers are on a little bit of an up-swing and the niners on a mini-downswing. I think both teams have excellent talent, excellent cap management, excellent coaching. . . . I'd call both elite. But within these windows, I think the Packers are hitting a better part of theirs and the 9ers, a slight lul (although still an excellent team.)


I'm hoping you are right about this, Justin, and you have some good points. Although it makes me barf in my mouth to say this, I agree with Wist's general point. I.e.: the Niners were more physical than the Pack in both games last year. I disagree with Wist's over-generalization that the team, From TT down are a bunch of ballet watching Nancies.

[rbaloha1]

I'm hoping you are right about this, Justin, and you have some good points. Although it makes me barf in my mouth to say this, I agree with Wist's general point. I.e.: the Niners were more physical than the Pack in both games last year. I disagree with Wist's over-generalization that the team, From TT down are a bunch of ballet watching Nancies.

You are courageous to say this since the denialsists/apologists/excusemakers keep attempting to disguise this fact.:wave:

[RashanGary]

I'm hoping you are right about this, Justin, and you have some good points. Although it makes me barf in my mouth to say this, I agree with Wist's general point. I.e.: the Niners were more physical than the Pack in both games last year. I disagree with Wist's over-generalization that the team, From TT down are a bunch of ballet watching Nancies.

Yeah, I partly agree with Wist on the general front-line toughness of our team too. I do think not having a running back was a huge part of our problem. I've heard it said from old-school football-wise people that the RB makes the line, not the other way around. Adrian Peterson would have had a great year with us. Cedric Benson/James Starks/D Harris would have had a shitty year with them. I would say the same with Frank Gore or any other great back. I think they would break tackles nobody else breaks and make yards nobody else makes no matter what team they're on. Defensively, I think it's scheme softness more than player softness. We play an afraid style of defense. 2-4 nickle, man outside with 2 safeties over the top. It's small. It has aggressive underneith coverage and aggressive over the top coverage. It would require a dominant front 6 to work. We don't have that.

That said, I look at the 49ers, and I see a team with bigger worries. Justin Smith, Dashon Gholston, Frank Gore and Michael Crabtree are all really big parts of why they were good. One is gone for good. One is gone for a long time. One is 34 years old and one of the oldest players still able to function at his position and the other is 30 years old and one of the oldest players still able to function at his position. Those are major concerns, bigger concerns than we have IMO.

[George Cumby]

You are courageous to say this since the denialsists/apologists/excusemakers keep attempting to disguise this fact.:wave:

I honestly don't know how to respond to this. Uhhhhhh...... Thanks? :confused:

[Fritz]

Dude -- give me your paypal account info and I will give you $1000 to spare us from your garbage about the read option stuff.


I read this about Mike Neal in another forum: "Last season Neal ranked 3rd among all 3-4 DE's in pressures per snap, and he finished the year with 4.5 Sacks despite missing the first 4 games of the season due to suspension."

I wonder where that stat came from. But if it's true....then that's pretty good for a guy who is pretending to be tough but is actually faking it. If it's not true, well, in my estimation he's still a guy who has plenty of potential and flashes it, but needs to stay healthy this year.

[Pugger]

I honestly don't know how to respond to this. Uhhhhhh...... Thanks? :confused:

You are better off not responding because if you disagree with him he'll resort to a large font or call you names like a child.

[pbmax]

Dude -- give me your paypal account info and I will give you $1000 to spare us from your garbage about the read option stuff.

I learned from hard experience not to hand that information out to Nigerian Princes such as yourself. You'll have to send a money order to Mad and then he can forward it.

[rbaloha1]

I read this about Mike Neal in another forum: "Last season Neal ranked 3rd among all 3-4 DE's in pressures per snap, and he finished the year with 4.5 Sacks despite missing the first 4 games of the season due to suspension."

I wonder where that stat came from. But if it's true....then that's pretty good for a guy who is pretending to be tough but is actually faking it. If it's not true, well, in my estimation he's still a guy who has plenty of potential and flashes it, but needs to stay healthy this year.

My nickname for Neal is based on those tats and acting like he won the lottery after making a play (Hawk does the same).

Then on the next play he gets destroyed.

[rbaloha1]

LARGE FONTS ARE RESPONSES TO STUPIDITY.

The cash offer is null and void.

[rbaloha1]

You are better off not responding because if you disagree with him he'll resort to a large font or call you names like a child.

Ignore me then Ward Cleaver.

Stop acting like the Dalai Lama.

[hoosier]

Kind of makes me nostalgic for the days of Tank. At least he had a sense of humor.

[rbaloha1]

I honestly don't know how to respond to this. Uhhhhhh...... Thanks? :confused:

Good move.

The denialists continue to deny a legit dimension and resort to cliches, misquoting me and useless stats.:bump:

Many posters watch the game drunk, get angry, never played the game and follow the crowd in order to sound like they know football. As different legit wrinkles arise they are lost and look like fools.

Keep going braddah with independent thinking and ignore the crybay crowd.

[pbmax]

I'm hoping you are right about this, Justin, and you have some good points. Although it makes me barf in my mouth to say this, I agree with Wist's general point. I.e.: the Niners were more physical than the Pack in both games last year. I disagree with Wist's over-generalization that the team, From TT down are a bunch of ballet watching Nancies.

My basic disagreement with everyone on talk radio, McGinn and several on the board is what tough (or more physical) means in this context and how you correct it. Tough to most of the viewing public means the opposition ran on you. But no one claims the 1997 Packers D line wasn't tough even though it got run over by the Broncos. Similarly, no one claim the Packer O line in that game wasn't tough, even though they could not deal with a blitz by the weak safety. And as zool has pointed out, no one has called the Ravens D not tough for giving up a ton of running yards to the 49ers as well. Tough and not physical are vague and emotional reactions to (a) specific problem(s).

I am under no illusions about how the Packer Defense played in either the 49er games or versus the Vikings the first 2 times. And its the third Viking game that I think best illustrates what ails the Packer D. It could have been all about Webb versus Ponder, but given the adjustments the Packers seemed to make, I think it argues for execution of the scheme.

1, Personnel. I give wist credit here for pinning some of the blame for Raji and envisioning a scenario where he is not as valuable (or vice versa) to the Packers because of fit. That means wist sees two positions that could do with an upgrade on the line. But most fans want Raji back. So they are looking to replace Wilson alone. But Wilson's one talent is run defense and holding his ground. There is not another player on this defense that does that better than him other than Raji and Pickett. I would be surprised (pleasantly so) if 285 lbs Datone Jones supplants him in Base D. I think he is here to rush the passer and rest Raji/Pickett by having them play fewer DE snaps.

2. Scheme or lack of adjustments. On its face, this claim falls short to me. Two defenses, Ravens and Falcons, one bigger and one smaller, one more multiple and one more static, than the Packers contained the read option not by simply being bigger or faster, they attacked Kap on the mesh and forced a give to the RB in read option. Gore had good games against them because of this. But big plays were limited. Given a redo a week later, I think Capers would make the same choice. As for adjustments in game, Capers listed several that were made in game post mortems. And it was an adjustment that seems to have caused Kap to go from scrambling through the Packers D (on pass plays) to running wide on read option through the Packers D.

3. Bigger. Two problems with this: one, while McGinn's article keeps mentioning size requirements, he fails to draw a correct inference from the players on the Packers roster. They are not too light, they are too short compared to Caper's 3-4 ideal body types. One man, D Jones, in the draft class addressed this and he addressed it by being one inch taller than Neal and two more than Worthy. If Jones pans out, it will be his talent that is mainly responsible not a 1-inch height and reach advantage.

4. Injuries. Lacy's draft by the Packers proves Thompson is willing to live with some medical yellow flags. Smith and possibly Bishop's release do seem to point to the Packers being less forgiving about injuries and waiting with mid-level talent, though this might be the future under the Rodgers and Matthews contracts until the cap goes up. If it were all about zero tolerance for injuries, Derrick Sherrod would be looking for work.

5. Execution. This came up during Vikings prep before the playoffs. And it has come up again in reference to college coaches advising the pros on the read option (or any option). Assignment football with no free lancing. I think this is the bigger factor. I think the Packers allow their defense to get out of shape when trying to be aggressive and force turnovers. We'll get to see if its a switch that can be flipped.

All of the above have a point or two to recommend them. Raji and Pick, despite better run D in 12 than 11, played disappointingly at times. We all would like 6' 5" trees at DE who cannot be rooted out of their spot. It would be nice to have a break from injuries, or at least return to 2011 levels. Its also clear the Packers failed to anticipate the risk of read option in their prep work for the 49ers. Raji said they spent next to no time on it in practice and Capers said they touched on it but it wasn't a focus. But read option totaled 7 (or 9?) plays in a game with 76 offensive plays. I don't think a failure to anticipate 9.2% of snaps is unusual in this League. but those 7 (or 9) plays average 15 yards, several first downs and a TD. Remember though, that Kap merely scrambling cost the Packers almost as dearly in the first half. So the greater failure was not the read option prep, it was failing to recognize the weapon Kaepernick was. That he was worse than Gore or Davis.

They should have watched more Bears-49ers game film in prep week.

But the one area that fits most with the pattern of failure is execution and technique. Wilson is solid in base but he is not Jolly circa 2009, holding ground is not the same as making the tackle. Jones did better than we had a right to expect, but his reactions to plays in front of him were slow too often. Raji, when frustrated, free lanced and caused as much trouble as he solved. And they need better play from their secondary. MD Jennings might not offer enough the correct skill set versus the 49ers. And Matthews cannot pass rush in such a way that the entire right side of the defense is open for the QB to scramble through. He needs to stick with the Power Rush more often versus fleet footed QBs.

All very fixable, but we have been waiting for years to solve the zone problem and its still around. So other than Patler, how many people are worried that the position coaches are not maximizing the return on the players in all facets of the game? That too much emphasis is placed on specific skills? McCarthy spent this years OTAs going back to individual work and less full team drills. I think he recognizes it too.

[pbmax]

Holy crap that is long. Sorry, didn't mean to go Full Manifesto on you.

:oops:

[rbaloha1]

579

[Upnorth]

LARGE FONTS Indicate STUPIDITY of large fonts.

The cash offer is null and void.

Fixed

[pbmax]

579

76

[George Cumby]

Great post, PB. Thanks.

I gotta' read that again and think about some of your points.

Also, I should watch that game again.

One thing that I am curious about is this: does that one or two inches really matter? It seems like its such a minute difference. But at the NFL level that inch makes a difference? Am I underestimating the tolerances in the game?

[rbaloha1]

Fixed

FIXERS OF LARGE FONTS ADD TO STUPIDITY

[rbaloha1]

76

579

[rbaloha1]

Great post, PB. Thanks.

I gotta' read that again and think about some of your points.

Also, I should watch that game again.

One thing that I am curious about is this: does that one or two inches really matter? It seems like its such a minute difference. But at the NFL level that inch makes a difference? Am I underestimating the tolerances in the game?
http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/recap?gameId=330112025

[rbaloha1]

Okay -- deal is back on. Blowback is gynormous.

[cheesner]

LARGE FONTS ARE RESPONSES TO STUPIDITY.
Look, I don't think you are stupid. You just have no capacity for expressing your ideas that doesn't come across as arrogant, condescending and therefore dumb. A few of the more intellectual posters have attempted to glean info from you, but you make that very difficult.

I don't understand why you come here, is it just a bitch fest outlet, then continue on - you are probably getting a lot out of this. If its to discuss the Packers then I would suggest you try and develop some social skills - they're not just for the non-internet world. You will find that people will actually listen and discuss things with you rather than think of you as a joke.

[pbmax]

Great post, PB. Thanks.

I gotta' read that again and think about some of your points.

Also, I should watch that game again.

One thing that I am curious about is this: does that one or two inches really matter? It seems like its such a minute difference. But at the NFL level that inch makes a difference? Am I underestimating the tolerances in the game?

Its a matter of advantage and tradeoffs. If physical attributes, including height, predominated, then Jeremy Thompson would have been as good an OLB as Matthews. Length can be of use in both pass rush and run defense, as it can give you reach and leverage advantages. D line height can impair an opposing QB.

But the guy has to be good enough at everything else to take advantage of those traits or he will never see the field.

[ThunderDan]

My nickname for Neal is based on those tats and acting like he won the lottery after making a play (Hawk does the same).

Then on the next play he gets destroyed.

Hawk hardly makes any celebration after plays. He gave the finger once and the shocker once that I remember.

Barnett was the king of the meaningless celebration with his samuri sword.

[3irty1]

Look, I don't think you are stupid. You just have no capacity for expressing your ideas that doesn't come across as arrogant, condescending and therefore dumb. A few of the more intellectual posters have attempted to glean info from you, but you make that very difficult.

I don't understand why you come here, is it just a bitch fest outlet, then continue on - you are probably getting a lot out of this. If its to discuss the Packers then I would suggest you try and develop some social skills - they're not just for the non-internet world. You will find that people will actually listen and discuss things with you rather than think of you as a joke.

Oh you haven't seen this defense mechanism yet? Prepare for: "Before you lecture me, look at the behavior of others brah. 579. bmcginn@journelsentinal.com"

[woodbuck27]

Look, I don't think you are stupid. You just have no capacity for expressing your ideas that doesn't come across as arrogant, condescending and therefore dumb. A few of the more intellectual posters have attempted to glean info from you, but you make that very difficult.

I don't understand why you come here, is it just a bitch fest outlet, then continue on - you are probably getting a lot out of this. If its to discuss the Packers then I would suggest you try and develop some social skills - they're not just for the non-internet world. You will find that people will actually listen and discuss things with you rather than think of you as a joke.

My compliments on your effort here cheesner.

[Upnorth]

LARGE FONTS ADD TO STUPIDITY

Straight from the horses mouth.
FWIW trolling you is kinda fun, I understand why you do it to so many around here.

[MadtownPacker]

Are we really talking about Tebow again? He's garbage. Flat out garbage. He was like 4 for 12 heading in to the second half (I can't find the quarter splits right now). Comparing Tebow to ANY of the young guys who can actually throw a ball is an insult to all of them. He's exactly on par with Pat White. There's a reason Pat White isn't a starting QB in the NFL just as there's a reason Tim Tebow isn't a starting QB in the NFL.

For the record, that playoff game was in his second season. But facts aren't well thought of around here lately.Screw you asshole!! Tebow will always be special to me because I won major dinero on that steelers playoff game. I know he's not a good QB but the magic was fun while it lasted.

[rbaloha1]

Straight from the horses mouth.
FWIW trolling you is kinda fun, I understand why you do it to so many around here.

Straight from your ASSHOLE

[rbaloha1]

Look, I don't think you are stupid. You just have no capacity for expressing your ideas that doesn't come across as arrogant, condescending and therefore dumb. A few of the more intellectual posters have attempted to glean info from you, but you make that very difficult.

I don't understand why you come here, is it just a bitch fest outlet, then continue on - you are probably getting a lot out of this. If its to discuss the Packers then I would suggest you try and develop some social skills - they're not just for the non-internet world. You will find that people will actually listen and discuss things with you rather than think of you as a joke.

Please Dr. Phil -- there are no intellects on this board -- just posers.

[rbaloha1]

pb, props for a long well written disciplined post (being serious).

But seriously it is nail on the chalkboard stuff.

Nonetheless you keep on truckin which is admirable.:-D

[rbaloha1]

Straight from the horses mouth.
FWIW trolling you is kinda fun, I understand why you do it to so many around here.

WRITE COHERENT SENTENCES DONKEY

[cheesner]

Look, I don't think you are stupid. You just have no capacity for expressing your ideas that doesn't come across as arrogant, condescending and therefore dumb. A few of the more intellectual posters have attempted to glean info from you, but you make that very difficult.


Please Dr. Phil -- there are no intellects on this board -- just posers.
Well, it takes a big man to admit when he is wrong, and I was wrong.

You are really stupid after all.

Also, it was more Dale Carnegie and not Dr. Phil.

[Upnorth]

Well, it takes a big man to admit when he is wrong, and I was wrong.

You are really stupid after all.

Also, it was more Dale Carnegie and not Dr. Phil.

Cheesner wins Packerrats today!

[Upnorth]

Straight from your ASSHOLE

Considering I think people who resort to large font as an attempt at making aggressive points have shit for legitimacy your statement is kinda correct. As comic the insult dog would say 'I poop on you"

[MadtownPacker]

RB has gone aloha folks. Hope no one misses him too much.

[Pugger]

RB has gone aloha folks. Hope no one misses him too much.

Thank you! ;-) :lol:

His condescension, arrogance and name calling was getting tiresome. We come here to talk about our favorite team, not to exchange barbs with juveniles.

[swede]

Kind of makes me nostalgic for the days of Tank. At least he had a sense of humor.

One time I told Tank the reason he loved Sherman and hated TT is that, as father figures go, Ted would have thrown out Tank's bong and made him mow the lawn while Mike would have let him live in the basement and burn incense.

Tank thought it was funny. He also thought it was funny when I suggested that Hillary needed a pool boy with his skill at wearing Speedos and rubbing sun screen into stretch marks.

I know if he came back I'd remember right away why he's gone, but he did have flashes of redeeming humor.

[KYPack]

Screw you asshole!! Tebow will always be special to me because I won major dinero on that steelers playoff game. I know he's not a good QB but the magic was fun while it lasted.

You had the Donko's?

Now that is a ballsy bet.

I am puzzled by the whole Tebow deal. My opinion of the boy is about on par with Zool. There are about 6 or 7 critical throws that he just can't make. Some of them involve that slow ass delivery of his. That, & he can't throw a ball outside the numbers to his right side to save his ass.

Pitt based their D gameplan on exploiting TT's weaknesses and he still beat 'em.

After pulling one of the biggest play-off upsets in NFL history, they cut him?

The whole thing is basically nuts.

But entertaining.

[3irty1]

RB has gone aloha folks. Hope no one misses him too much.

http://i41.tinypic.com/2sale9w.jpg

[QBME]

http://i41.tinypic.com/2sale9w.jpg

Now that's funny!

[MadtownPacker]

Hahaha! That is too sweet 31.

[woodbuck27]

RB has gone aloha folks. Hope no one misses him too much.

Mad.

Your a patient man.

The Packer fan from Hawaii:

http://static.environmentalgraffiti.com/sites/default/files/images/http-inlinethumb50.webshots.com-3377-2799592440105101600S600x600Q85.jpg

http://static.environmentalgraffiti.com/sites/default/files/images/http-inlinethumb33.webshots.com-18272-2008133390105101600S600x600Q85.jpg

http://static.environmentalgraffiti.com/sites/default/files/images/http-inlinethumb48.webshots.com-44591-2942370990105101600S600x600Q85.jpg

http://static.environmentalgraffiti.com/sites/default/files/images/http-inlinethumb59.webshots.com-28154-2444977090105101600S600x600Q85.jpg


Not 'even nearly' Kamakaze... Just ... a sad waste

[Bossman641]

How are we gonna meet the daily quota of "579" posts? Should we all kick in 1-2 a day?

[Cleft Crusty]

Please Dr. Phil -- there are no intellects on this board -- just posers.

I resemble that remark

[Cleft Crusty]

All very fixable, but we have been waiting for years to solve the zone problem and its still around. So other than Patler, how many people are worried that the position coaches are not maximizing the return on the players in all facets of the game? That too much emphasis is placed on specific skills? McCarthy spent this years OTAs going back to individual work and less full team drills. I think he recognizes it too.

Clefty is trying to understand this point. Are you saying that the Packers have valued more narrow, specific, individual skills (such as Sam Sheilds being able to run step to step with fast receivers, Woodson being able to attack the LOS) at the expense of being able to do multiple things reasonably well, so that the defense is more flexible? And that the answer is to expand the repertoire of each player in individuals drills during OTAs, to then be put together during training camp? If playing zone is a main problem, how is that being taught in individual work during OTAs?

[MadtownPacker]

Thank you! ;-) :lol:

His condescension, arrogance and name calling was getting tiresome. We come here to talk about our favorite team, not to exchange barbs with juveniles.While we do value those traits in random burst here RB never let up. I think if he really didn't care about the discussion just wanted to fight. He also couldn't differentiate posters like yourself who don't engage in that stuff from those who do. So he is gone.

[George Cumby]

RB has gone aloha folks. Hope no one misses him too much.

Is that a permanent vacation or a few weeks on the beach?

Either way, thanks, it was due.

[MadtownPacker]

Maybe if you all get bored and want to be abused we can bring him back someday braddah.

[RashanGary]

RB has gone aloha folks. Hope no one misses him too much.

Aloha, bitch :p :p :p

[RashanGary]

I feel so happy that he's gone. God, he was a douche. Some of the things he said to people, moddah fuckah, I just wanted to punch that brodda in da face.

[Zool]

I feel so happy that he's gone. God, he was a douche. Some of the things he said to people, moddah fuckah, I just wanted to punch that brodda in da face.

Bygones and all that. Let it go.

[hoosier]

Swede is right. First time I've seen a banning and couldn't think of a single redeeming feature, unless you count sheer volume of posts.

[Zool]

Swede is right. First time I've seen a banning and couldn't think of a single redeeming feature, unless you count sheer volume of posts.

Font size usage?

[MadtownPacker]

Bygones and all that. Let it go.
Let's lynch Zool now!!'

[hoosier]

Font size usage?

That's when I started to hate him. But maybe that is more about me than him. I have small children at home and the large font size just contributed to my feeling that you can never escape the collective din that small children generate.

[MadtownPacker]

You had the Donko's?I sure did. I would like to say I had some reason why but it was strictly based on a gut feeling. $200 which sadly I ended up losing most of on the Packers/giants game.

[Upnorth]

That's when I started to hate him. But maybe that is more about me than him. I have small children at home and the large font size just contributed to my feeling that you can never escape the collective din that small children generate.

That was my thoughts as well. Part of me is embarrassed for what I posted to him the last few days.

[MadtownPacker]

Wow you guys sound remorseful. Should we bring him back?


:lol:

[woodbuck27]

Wow you guys sound remorseful. Should we bring him back?


:lol:

Let's bring this fella in too:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/44/Freddy_Krueger.JPG/250px-Freddy_Krueger.JPG

Really go for it (or heating up the joint) with this fella:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m73ojho5GY1qgj6jvo1_1280.jpg

Then for good measure invite this fella to post at Packerrats:

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSA82-8amNWD6isLzFjnSprkMZ_4xXElbVoV_buun9_90Ws5rPpkQ

See ... he's all grown up now.

Seriously ... my motion is give 'the Hawaiian Rattler' a few weeks to think about his total bashing attitude and (your call Mad) but 'just maybe' give him 'a very gentle' final notice. He just might get it with some chilling time.

The way he was going. I felt very badly for the coolest dude here pbmax and some other posters that really tried with this ahh ...?alien?

I mean who in the history of NFL forums posts with such utter distain/disrespect for most other posters? The Hawain Rattler was simply cruising for a bruising.

Was he crying out for a break? I mean I was at a total loss to figure that man out. I hated to see him blow it.

[Joemailman]

Wow you guys sound remorseful. Should we bring him back?


:lol:

I say the odds of that are 579-1.

[hoosier]

I just got a spammy, obscene PM from "antoniofreeman." I bet I can tell you where its IP is located.

[pbmax]

He did drive everyone's post counts. Been an active few weeks.

I don't seem to remember him being this way always.

[pbmax]

Clefty is trying to understand this point. Are you saying that the Packers have valued more narrow, specific, individual skills (such as Sam Sheilds being able to run step to step with fast receivers, Woodson being able to attack the LOS) at the expense of being able to do multiple things reasonably well, so that the defense is more flexible? And that the answer is to expand the repertoire of each player in individuals drills during OTAs, to then be put together during training camp? If playing zone is a main problem, how is that being taught in individual work during OTAs?

From the start of McCarthy's coaching stint, it has been remarked that he was on the low end of time spent in individual work. Especially so compared to Sherman and even so compared to Holmgren. He spent a lot of time in 7 on 7 and full team drills. He liked the volume of reps he got that way. I think that allowed him (and his DC) to install all concepts prior to training camp. That is, teach the scheme and the calls to the players as a unit.

This year, due to the offseason schedule changes in the CBA, M3 changed the offseason approach as he was unhappy where they were when they got to camp. Reporters have said the most recognizable thing was an emphasis on individual drills and less team segments.

In the past, it was clear that certain concepts did not work well with the Packer personnel. The most obvious is zone D. The problems ranged from individual skill set to communication. So despite the successful install, the players could not execute all calls well on the field as a team.

My hope is that if possible, individual drills might improve the player's techniques prior to training camp. Then time can be spent refining how to integrate all those new ind. skills into a cohesive Defensive whole.

[MadtownPacker]

I just got a spammy, obscene PM from "antoniofreeman." I bet I can tell you where its IP is located.
Haha! You gotta love his spirit. Don't bother looking it up, I already checked and it is him.

[MadtownPacker]

He did drive everyone's post counts. Been an active few weeks.

I don't seem to remember him being this way always.
This is RB and all of you are the vikings D.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQmyLLxRNcA

[woodbuck27]

This is RB and all of you are the vikings D.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQmyLLxRNcA

Hey Mad;

What's with the 'black' video screen 'of late'? I noticed that on some other posts.

PACKERS !

[3irty1]

I just got a spammy, obscene PM from "antoniofreeman." I bet I can tell you where its IP is located.

I got one of those myself.

[Upnorth]

I got one of those myself.

Same here. Does that mean we win a prize?

Can my prize be momma mad's recipes? I like authentic Mexican

[Joemailman]

Same here. Does that mean we win a prize?

I got one too. I figured it was from you.

[Pugger]

He didn't bother me with a PM yet, thankfully. Somebody's got some serious growing up to do.

[RashanGary]

He did drive everyone's post counts. Been an active few weeks.

I don't seem to remember him being this way always.

I know, WTF happened to that guy?

I got banned once. I didn't think I was ever gonna be allowed back. I was really upset about it, but that's what I needed. I needed to realize the people I posted with did matter so I could want to fix it. I could have gone anywhere else, but I liked it here. I just needed a wake up call to realize it.

[cheesner]

I got one too. I figured it was from you.

His message to me was simply: "F U Asshole!" then a smiley face. Wasn't sure how to take it.

[Upnorth]

His message to me was simply: "F U Asshole!" then a smiley face. Wasn't sure how to take it.

Was it very large font? I thought it was his way of showing he cared.

[George Cumby]

Was it very large font? I thought it was his way of showing he cared.

Yes. Yes, it was. I'm relieved and disappointed that I wasn't the only one.

[3irty1]

In mine he told me to "lick my mother's cut[sic] and eat my feces" That was sandwiched with more profane and less endearing phrases though. Big font of course. I think it was because of the tombstone I photoshopped which I actually made a week and a half ago when it was clear he was going to get banned.

[mraynrand]

In mine he told me to "lick my mother's cut[sic] and eat my feces" That was sandwiched with more profane and less endearing phrases though. Big font of course. I think it was because of the tombstone I photoshopped which I actually made a week and a half ago when it was clear he was going to get banned.

I bet you have all your Christmas presents bought and wrapped by October too.

[Iron Mike]

In mine he told me to "lick my mother's cut[sic] and eat my feces."

I'm gonna have to remember that for when the game day threads start up again. :)

[woodbuck27]

In mine he told me to "lick my mother's cut[sic] and eat my feces" That was sandwiched with more profane and less endearing phrases though. Big font of course. I think it was because of the tombstone I photoshopped which I actually made a week and a half ago when it was clear he was going to get banned.

3irty1:

I can top it. I received 2X PM's.

1) The first one was just a little warm up 'Fuck You' to the second.

2) When he informed me that he was going to 'rape my daughters'. That one made my fingers curl up a wee bit.

Thank GOD he was at the time spamming the forum (or otherwise distracted) because I cannot even imagine where he was going to take me.

I sat quietly last evening thinking a lot about this former member. I still wasn't getting it until I looked at this thread again this morning. Last night I wanted to post a thread RE: what can we do here @ Packerrats in the future to prevent such that happened to rbaloha1 and all he took on here. How do we defuse a member bent on getting banned? How do we get that member to calm down and make an overall solid contribution?

I realize now with some people that's next to impossible. Yet, surely we can do something...more to prevent 'Capitol Punishment' on a forum? A banning really hurts. Some miss the real reason for such drastic action that Mad doesn't enjoy doing. I believe that reason is to take 'a time out' to simply THINK.

I tried my best to help rbaloha1 out. Too feel more comfortable or chilled out here. To be patient in terms of the respect he felt he deserved. Now... I realize my attempts to help were doomed.

The former Packerrats member rbaloha1 has very serious issues. His style of aggression and denial must never be forgotten here. It's more than simply bad social skills and manners. He's set on the dark path. He needs to stop 'the creepy ride'; before he gets choked to death. He certainly wouldn't survive where I came from. He could count himself fortunate to be safer in jail.

We'll never really know about rbaloha1. I suspect that he made his last post at Packerrats.

I went looking and found this. It likely isn't 'in fact' related to rbaloha1. It certainly address's the topic of creepy. The results of acting in such a manner are never good.

http://www.mikefook.com/fook-experiences/my-ride-with-a-serial-killer-couple-in-hawaii/

[Fritz]

3irty1:

I can top it. I received 2X PM's.

1) The first one was just a little warm up 'Fuck You' to the second.

2) When he informed me that he was going to 'rape my daughters'. That one made my fingers curl up a wee bit.

Thank GOD he was at the time spamming the forum (or otherwise distracted) because I cannot even imagine where he was going to take me.

I sat quietly last evening thinking a lot about this former member. I still wasn't getting it until I looked at this thread again this morning. Last night I wanted to post a thread RE: what can we do here @ Packerrats in the future to prevent such that happened to rbaloha1 and all he took on here. How do we defuse a member bent on getting banned? How do we get that member to calm down and make an overall solid contribution?

I realize now with some people that's next to impossible. Yet, surely we can do something...more to prevent 'Capitol Punishment' on a forum? A banning really hurts. Some miss the real reason for such drastic action that Mad doesn't enjoy doing. I believe that reason is to take 'a time out' to simply THINK.

I tried my best to help rbaloha1 out. To feel more comfortable or chilled out here. To be patient in terms of the respect he felt he deserved. Now... I realize my attempts to help were doomed.

The former Packerrats member rbaloha1 has very serious issues. His style of aggression and denial must never be forgotten here. It's more than simply bad social skills and manners. He's set on the dark path. He needs to stop 'the creepy ride'; before he gets choked to death. He certainly wouldn't survive where I came from. He could count himself fortunate to be safer in jail.

We'll never really know about rbaloha1. I suspect that he made his last post at Packerrats.

I went looking and found this. It likely isn't 'in fact' related to rbaloha1. It certainly address's the topic of creepy. The results of acting in such a manner are never good.

http://www.mikefook.com/fook-experiences/my-ride-with-a-serial-killer-couple-in-hawaii/


Wow, those were some scary messages. Geez.

[woodbuck27]

Wow, those were some scary messages. Geez.

Fritz:

In reality. When I received his second message. All my sympathy was for this forum.

He certainly wouldn't rape my oldest daughter. She would drop him like a sack of potatoes. She's very physically competent.

[QBME]

I don't believe he is in Hawaii. His posting hours didn't jive with the time difference.

[mraynrand]

How do we defuse a member bent on getting banned? How do we get that member to calm down and make an overall solid contribution?

buy me a sno cone

[woodbuck27]

I don't believe he is in Hawaii. His posting hours didn't jive with the time difference.

Wherever he is... I suspect that right now. He's screaming 'FUCK YOU' to all of us as he reads these messages. In a few days ... maybe a week or month? He might realize his indignation was his folly.

Posters here actually cared for him. That's the real sadness.

[woodbuck27]

Wow, those were some scary messages. Geez.

I read Michael Connelly and the Harry Bosch crime/suspence novels. That gives me some imagination.

Not to set off any alarms, but Hieronymus 'Harry' Bosch nabbed them for less information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honolulu_Strangler

[Upnorth]

So getting back onto topic, with Bishop gone we have a starting tandem of Hawk and Jones for ILB. Mathews paired up with Perry at OLB. Raji, Pickett and Jones for DL. Twill and Haywood at CB and Burnett with Jennings at Saftey. Some other potential starters are Jolly, Neal, Sheilds and McMillian, but this is my projection for our starting line up.
For stopping the ro we have both the speed and size at the edge, however our interior line is suspect and saftey is still a mess (or at least the biggest problem right now). To me it looks like we have the right personal to control the RO offence if the players are coached right and play disciplined. Does Capers, who is an attacking defensive coach, have it in him?

[bobblehead]

He did drive everyone's post counts. Been an active few weeks.

I don't seem to remember him being this way always.

I must be ahead of the curve. I butted heads with him 2 years ago when the packers started slow and he insisted the world was ending. I insisted they were still a good team, made sound arguments, got called names. The pack went 7-1 to end the season and he disappeared for 6 months.

It was a good 6 months. But he was always this way to an extent.

[3irty1]

3irty1:

I can top it. I received 2X PM's.

1) The first one was just a little warm up 'Fuck You' to the second.

2) When he informed me that he was going to 'rape my daughters'. That one made my fingers curl up a wee bit.

Thank GOD he was at the time spamming the forum (or otherwise distracted) because I cannot even imagine where he was going to take me.

I sat quietly last evening thinking a lot about this former member. I still wasn't getting it until I looked at this thread again this morning. Last night I wanted to post a thread RE: what can we do here @ Packerrats in the future to prevent such that happened to rbaloha1 and all he took on here. How do we defuse a member bent on getting banned? How do we get that member to calm down and make an overall solid contribution?

I realize now with some people that's next to impossible. Yet, surely we can do something...more to prevent 'Capitol Punishment' on a forum? A banning really hurts. Some miss the real reason for such drastic action that Mad doesn't enjoy doing. I believe that reason is to take 'a time out' to simply THINK.

I tried my best to help rbaloha1 out. Too feel more comfortable or chilled out here. To be patient in terms of the respect he felt he deserved. Now... I realize my attempts to help were doomed.

The former Packerrats member rbaloha1 has very serious issues. His style of aggression and denial must never be forgotten here. It's more than simply bad social skills and manners. He's set on the dark path. He needs to stop 'the creepy ride'; before he gets choked to death. He certainly wouldn't survive where I came from. He could count himself fortunate to be safer in jail.

We'll never really know about rbaloha1. I suspect that he made his last post at Packerrats.

I went looking and found this. It likely isn't 'in fact' related to rbaloha1. It certainly address's the topic of creepy. The results of acting in such a manner are never good.

http://www.mikefook.com/fook-experiences/my-ride-with-a-serial-killer-couple-in-hawaii/

ideas:

Mad could sell adspace on the site to pharmaceuticals companies and treatment centers specializing in sadistic and narcissistic personality disorders.

Instead of banning, the forum administrator puts the trouble member on a probation wherein they will have to type captcha phrases to post. These captcha messages are special in that they promote the growth of a social conscience and ease the pain of being a disappointment one's father.

The forum software is given a feature where the your reputation is tied directly to the opacity of your font: negative rep causes your text to get a shade lighter. This prevents a member from perpetually riding the line between being banned or not as they will instead be gradually rendered invisible if your contributions are detracting from the experience of others.

[mraynrand]

The forum software is given a feature where the your reputation is tied directly to the opacity of your font: negative rep causes your text to get a shade lighter. This prevents a member from perpetually riding the line between being banned or not as they will instead be gradually rendered invisible if your contributions are detracting from the experience of others.

Beautiful in it's simplicity

[pbmax]

I must be ahead of the curve. I butted heads with him 2 years ago when the packers started slow and he insisted the world was ending. I insisted they were still a good team, made sound arguments, got called names. The pack went 7-1 to end the season and he disappeared for 6 months.

It was a good 6 months. But he was always this way to an extent.

Was that the year they started 4-4 and then won 5 straight to make the playoffs? I do remember that was an ugly time. That was the year of the Tampa loss. And they turned it around versus the Cowboys at Lambeau.

[ThunderDan]

Was that the year they started 4-4 and then won 5 straight to make the playoffs? I do remember that was an ugly time. That was the year of the Tampa loss. And they turned it around versus the Cowboys at Lambeau.

Yeah, that was the WHY THE PACKERS CAN'T GO 10-6 THIS YEAR thread if I remeber correctly.

[pbmax]

I remember Wilde got so tired of the bellyaching on the radio that he said people need to realize the team could easily finish with ten wins and still get to the playoffs after they were 4-4. He nearly lost his gig in Milwaukee after being laughed off the air.

[cheesner]

Beautiful in it's simplicity
I think, every June 12, all posters on Packerrats, at exactly 4pm eastern time; begin singing 'Kumbaya'; whereever we are no matter what we are doing. I think it will do wonders to remind each one of us what is really important and pull us together as a fan base. Although we won't be able to hear or see eachother as we each sing out, the universe will synergize our commonality and oneness with the universe. And we shall find peace.

[Upnorth]

Kumbaya 579 kumbayaa

[woodbuck27]

Kumbaya 579 kumbayaa

Kumbaya 579 Kumbayaa

Hey ... is it working for you? I feel more at peace.

[Smeefers]

3irty1:

I can top it. I received 2X PM's.

1) The first one was just a little warm up 'Fuck You' to the second.

2) When he informed me that he was going to 'rape my daughters'. That one made my fingers curl up a wee bit.

Thank GOD he was at the time spamming the forum (or otherwise distracted) because I cannot even imagine where he was going to take me.

I sat quietly last evening thinking a lot about this former member. I still wasn't getting it until I looked at this thread again this morning. Last night I wanted to post a thread RE: what can we do here @ Packerrats in the future to prevent such that happened to rbaloha1 and all he took on here. How do we defuse a member bent on getting banned? How do we get that member to calm down and make an overall solid contribution?

I realize now with some people that's next to impossible. Yet, surely we can do something...more to prevent 'Capitol Punishment' on a forum? A banning really hurts. Some miss the real reason for such drastic action that Mad doesn't enjoy doing. I believe that reason is to take 'a time out' to simply THINK.

I tried my best to help rbaloha1 out. Too feel more comfortable or chilled out here. To be patient in terms of the respect he felt he deserved. Now... I realize my attempts to help were doomed.

The former Packerrats member rbaloha1 has very serious issues. His style of aggression and denial must never be forgotten here. It's more than simply bad social skills and manners. He's set on the dark path. He needs to stop 'the creepy ride'; before he gets choked to death. He certainly wouldn't survive where I came from. He could count himself fortunate to be safer in jail.

We'll never really know about rbaloha1. I suspect that he made his last post at Packerrats.

I went looking and found this. It likely isn't 'in fact' related to rbaloha1. It certainly address's the topic of creepy. The results of acting in such a manner are never good.

http://www.mikefook.com/fook-experiences/my-ride-with-a-serial-killer-couple-in-hawaii/


Honestly Wood, I hate to say this, but I think you're wrong. Someone can be a complete douche online and fine in real life. Not to mention, It's not my problem. I don't care about the kid. I could give a shit about him. The only thing I really care about is that he was actually adversely effecting my Packrats experience. I had him blocked, but he was so damn prevalent that it was impossible to avoid him. I don't mind doom and gloom when it makes sense. I may get a little pissed off and kick a few stones around the yard, but I calm down and figure it out eventually. That kid was just looking for a fight. Looking to piss people off. That is why he came here. He wasn't here to talk packers, he was here to find people's buttons and just push the shit out of them. If all of us loved the read option and thought the packers were going 2-14 this year, RB would have trying to piss us off with how good the packers are going to be..

It's not worth trying to fix that because there's nothing broken. Your goals and his are just different.

So for the love of God and everything that's holy, keep that kid gone.

[woodbuck27]

Honestly Wood, I hate to say this, but I think you're wrong. Someone can be a complete douche online and fine in real life. Not to mention, It's not my problem. I don't care about the kid. I could give a shit about him. The only thing I really care about is that he was actually adversely effecting my Packrats experience. I had him blocked, but he was so damn prevalent that it was impossible to avoid him. I don't mind doom and gloom when it makes sense. I may get a little pissed off and kick a few stones around the yard, but I calm down and figure it out eventually. That kid was just looking for a fight. Looking to piss people off. That is why he came here. He wasn't here to talk packers, he was here to find people's buttons and just push the shit out of them. If all of us loved the read option and thought the packers were going 2-14 this year, RB would have trying to piss us off with how good the packers are going to be..

It's not worth trying to fix that because there's nothing broken. Your goals and his are just different.

So for the love of God and everything that's holy, keep that kid gone.

Hi 3irty1;

We see this poster rbaloha1 differently. I don't believe we're discussing any person and a split personality; or on a forum one way; in life differently.

It's my position that rbaloha1 has dark issues. That poster was using Packerrats as a vehicle to demonstrate a certain neurosis. That poster wasn't as he was here and in real life a really nice guy. rbaloha1 is a sick person in need of therapy. Packerrats isn't the place for any therapy. Am I qualified to make such an observation? I certainly am. I can feel and I've lived long enough to define what I feel/observe.

How did I arrive today in terms of feeling rbaloha1? Thinking is a process and arriving at a stance takes time. I hate to see any poster turn out as rbaloha1 did. I generally give anyone the benefit of doubt. Until I peg that person with certain issues. To be right means to hate to be wrong. To be very cautious not to be wrong.

My take on rbaloha1 at the beginning; was that he had an over/under developed ego. That he was trying too hard to be accepted at Packerrats. In any social setting (neighborhood) such takes time. Respect cannot be realistically expected. No less I tried to help him out and I did so in open forum (rather than PM). I'm not a behind the scenes guy. What you see is what you get with me. I'm not so much into 'group think'. I was raised to be my own person or think for myself. The 'group' seldom influences me.

I saw/felt the heat coming down on rbaloha1. That inspite of the fact, much of that was his personal undoing. I tried to intervene. Any process isn't bereft of error. In hindsight I would do some things differently. I've reviewed it. I hope to learn from the experience of this poster.

Going back to the beginning:

I've always despised it when anyone is bullied. I tried to help him feel that he wasn't alone. That backfired on me. It went as it had to for rbaloha1. rbaloha1 was in the drivers seat in terms of his fate here. That curve of self-destruction was amazing to observe and painful. I was instructed by him to not intervene.

3irty1. I hold that we need more posters at Packerrats. Would I go so far as to now suggest that rbaloha1 be reinstated. HELL NO! If I didn't take that position now I'd be a fool. The way he burned out was over the top madness as I felt it. The poster known as rbaloha1 certainly has an agenda that is far removed from the style/manner of poster that we need see on Packerrats.

I'll also hold on this observation. rbaloha1 is a disturbed person and not fit for Packerrats, or any 'open forum'. I suspect that rbaloha1 (his agendas) will play out elsewhere. For some time the rbaloha1 show will go on, until he explode's himself.

If I set to the side, rbaloha1 as antoniofreemann, and all that sickness. I'm still left with this:

rbaloha1 is the anti-**pbmax ... the anti-**Patler. I hated the way that rbaloha1 abused such respected posters here and others. I also hated the abuse I felt heaped on him.

Did I learn anything from this whole thing? I gained a degree of more respect for ** these posters, regarding how they controlled themselves with regards to his 'over the top' angry/stupid responses. How they stayed on topic and disregarded the barbs thrown at them. I'm NOT as patient in the heat of engagement. BS gets my attention very fast. :lol:

Might we see rbaloha1 re-instated at Packerrats? That possible action isn't my business.

I'm merely one member here. If rbaloha1 comes back. That fact and business is on rbaloha1 and under the conditions of such re-instatement. A re-instatement that as member I would do my best after all of his past to respect and support. Would I hold much hope for him/

I wouldn't bet a nickel on that poster. He's got serious problems.

[packer4life]

Kumbaya 579 kumbayaa

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