The Skinbasket Weighs in on New Redskins Nicknames

[mraynrand]

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-06-13/renaming-the-redskins-4-new-not-racist-names-and-logos-for-d-dot-c-dot-s-nfl-team#r=rss

Seriously, this was an actual attempt to rename the franchise. First comment sounded a lot like The Skinbasket:


I don't know where to begin..... 1) the Roc's, when they share overlap with the Ravens is stupid 2) the Washington metro has NEVER used tokens and Metro's.... really. 3) Leopards is just ridiculous 4) skins with a ridiculous tribal tattoo background, I can't believe you idiots get paid for these ideas, why don't we just cut to the chase and call them the douchbags

I grew up in DC and environs and I've been a Redskins fan since I realized football was a thing. I get it, if an expansion team came out with the name Redskins they would rightfully be screamed off the map, because it is offensive. The thing people seem to ignore is that this team has had that nickname for about 80 years. Here's the other thing that bothers me; it used to be people measured intent into their outrage. Neither the organization or the fans intend for it to be offensive, we don't use it as an
epitaph, we dont have a guy in a native american costume running around, we don't do the ridiculous chop or condescending indian chants, we don't even reference scalping in our 80 year old fight song. Give us a break. If there is any group that's been marginalized to an even quasi comparable level to that of the native americans it's washingtonians who don't even have congressional representation, don't have direct control over their city budget because it has to approved by congress, and have to put up with the mouth breathers you idiots elect and send to our city so we can babysit them for 2-4-6 year terms respectively. And we don't even get a casino priviledges. If you've got enough time on your hands to really work yourself up into a phony outrage about something so banal and trivial then seriously, find a hobby. Take up knitting, or I don't know, smash your head repeatedly into a wall, whatever, just shut up and leave us alone

QFT.
The absurd 'new' ideas:

http://images.bwbx.io/cms/2013-06-13/comp_redskins25__01_inline304.jpg
http://images.bwbx.io/cms/2013-06-13/comp_redskins25__02_inline304.jpg
http://images.bwbx.io/cms/2013-06-13/comp_redskins25__04_inline304.jpg
http://images.bwbx.io/cms/2013-06-13/comp_redskins25__03_inline304.jpg

[mraynrand]

Does anyone remember when the Steamfitters local 638 fought against Purdue University and the use of "boilermakers?"

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/5c/Purdue_Pete.svg/200px-Purdue_Pete.svg.png

[mraynrand]

Another good one from the comments section


A few years ago a Native American school named their teams the "Fighting Whiteys", and they couldn't print enough t-shirts to keep up with the demand. People with tractor tans love the term "redneck" even though it is generally meant to be demeaning when it is used. Jeff Foxworthy is a wealthy man because of it. You might have the best solution to the problem. Name the team after some group whose signal distinction isn't it's inferiority complex. The irony is that Native Americans want to be respected, but their history as fearless fighters is what the Redskins are putting on display. The "activists" who get involved in how "demeaning" a native American team name is are establishing a new identity for Native Americans as whiners and crybabies.

[hoosier]

DC was already forced to change the name of its NBA team. No city should have to submit to more than one pc renaming...unless, of course, it is the city of taxation without representation.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1LhlVtbW_U

[pbmax]

Its possible there was pressure on Pollin to change the name, but if there was I don't remember it. He did it himself after the killing of a friend.


In 1995, owner Abe Pollin announced he was changing the team's name because Bullets had acquired violent overtones that had made him increasingly uncomfortable over the years, particularly given the high homicide and crime rate in the early 1990s in Washington, D.C. The final straw was the assassination of his longtime friend, Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin.[2]

[pbmax]

As for the Fightin' Whiteys and their shirts, the quote covers all the relevant differences. The Whitey are the majority and some/most in the area feel no particular compunction about the name being used by a minority group for profit. Its benign enough to, literally, buy into. Also, while Whitey might very well be used in a derogatory sense, there are multiple positive examples of it. Unless you are describing a potato, its not really an analogue for Redskins.

I doubt the same reaction would be had if that team was named the Fightin' Hibes or Fightin' Kikes.

The Redskins are not about to hand over a portion of ownership to Indigenous Americans nor are they currently sharing royalties over their trademarks.

Skinbasket Clone may feel that no disrespect intended washes his hands clean, but he is only one end of the communication. In a commercial enterprise, the intent of a consumer is pretty irrelevant.

[hoosier]

Its possible there was pressure on Pollin to change the name, but if there was I don't remember it. He did it himself after the killing of a friend.

Yeah, I was glibly lumping the Bullets/Wizards and Redskins together under the same cause. I couldn't remember whether the Bullet name change process was purely internal or response to external pressure, but discomfort with the name in the context of DC urban violence certainly does ring a bell.

[mraynrand]

As for the Fightin' Whiteys and their shirts, the quote covers all the relevant differences. The Whitey are the majority and some/most in the area feel no particular compunction about the name being used by a minority group for profit. Its benign enough to, literally, buy into. Also, while Whitey might very well be used in a derogatory sense, there are multiple positive examples of it. Unless you are describing a potato, its not really an analogue for Redskins.

I doubt the same reaction would be had if that team was named the Fightin' Hibes or Fightin' Kikes.

The Redskins are not about to hand over a portion of ownership to Indigenous Americans nor are they currently sharing royalties over their trademarks.

Skinbasket Clone may feel that no disrespect intended washes his hands clean, but he is only one end of the communication. In a commercial enterprise, the intent of a consumer is pretty irrelevant.

Certainly the minority bullets in society feel discrimination, even though there are positive examples of them

[mraynrand]

Pollin was a real deep thinker. I suspect he liked the bullets that killed Nazi SS members.

[pbmax]

(re: Pollin) Yeah, it was long ago I had to look up the particulars. In fact, that story seems almost too pat, but I couldn't find an account contrary to those facts. Who knows, he might have needed to put fannies in the seats and thought it would help. I just don't remember a campaign over it.

I don't have much patience for legal means to force the Redskins nickname to change*, but I am equally impatient with people who try to dodge that the Redskins name is a slur. Its just an excuse to make the fans feel better, but its a slur none-the-less. Also, while Skinbasket clone feels better that his stadium doesn't do the chop or have a Native American in full dress roaming the sideline, he should take time to mention the helmet logo.

Opponents just ought to play the long game and continually remind fans that they are celebrating a racial slur.

A better question is the Warriors nickname. That one makes the most sense.

*Great moment in judicial non-understanding over this issue. In a lawsuit over the Redskin nickname that was ultimately lost by the plaintiffs, the ruling judge held as fact that it could not be proven that a plurality or majority of Indigenous People in the area felt disrespected over the name. He concluded that such information was a practical impossibility and that the polling data that the plaintiff had submitted was just a poll of certain people and couldn't possibly, correctly convey the sentiment of the whole population. :)

[pbmax]

Pollin was a real deep thinker. I suspect he liked the bullets that killed Nazi SS members.

The people of DC were similarly confused, if memory serves. Most people thought it referred to train travel.

[mraynrand]

The Redskins are not about to hand over a portion of ownership to Indigenous Americans nor are they currently sharing royalties over their trademarks.


It would be kinda hard to do that, considering the trademark represents a symbol of native americans that no longer exists. Where would you go to share royalties with gladiators? Maybe a case could be made for the Fighting Irish but I suppose you'd have to stop those majority people from pummeling you to hand over the cash.

[pbmax]

It would be kinda hard to do that, considering the trademark represents a symbol of native americans that no longer exists. Where would you go to share royalties with gladiators? Maybe a case could be made for the Fighting Irish but I suppose you'd have to stop those majority people from pummeling you to hand over the cash.

I would have to stop the Fightin' Irish lawyers first, then the NCAA. Would be broke and dead before I got to the actual Irish.

[mraynrand]

*Great moment in judicial non-understanding over this issue. In a lawsuit over the Redskin nickname that was ultimately lost by the plaintiffs, the ruling judge held as fact that it could not be proven that a plurality or majority of Indigenous People in the area felt disrespected over the name. He concluded that such information was a practical impossibility and that the polling data that the plaintiff had submitted was just a poll of certain people and couldn't possibly, correctly convey the sentiment of the whole population. :)

But your previous post seems to suggest that the two critical elements of a derogatory symbol have to be 1) that it represents a (presumably oppressed) minority, and 2) that the symbol actually has to be viewed as offensive by the purportedly offended party. Which helps explain the reality that the Seminoles like being represented by a college team.

[mraynrand]

I should point out before the real Skinbasket shows up that he mey very well be pissed that I attached his name to this thread, but with the level of Skinbasket love lately, I felt compelled to hitch my thread to a popular figure. I will probably be sued by the same people who are going after Chief Wahoo.

[pbmax]

But your previous post seems to suggest that the two critical elements of a derogatory symbol have to be 1) that it represents a (presumably oppressed) minority, and 2) that the symbol actually has to be viewed as offensive by the purportedly offended party. Which helps explain the reality that the Seminoles like being represented by a college team.

I do not recall the basis the judge used to dismiss or find in favor of the defendant. My criteria are just my criteria, not from that case.

But I find the idea of random sample polling (correctly done) as not representative of the larger whole to be an attack on reason in general.

[hoosier]

we dont have a guy in a native american costume running around, we don't do the ridiculous chop or condescending indian chants, we don't even reference scalping in our 80 year old fight song.

Just for the record (because I really don't have a dog in this race, because I agree with the sentiment about DC citizens getting shafted, and because the rant itself is funny), but Skinbasketclone's apologia does contain a number of half-truths that compromise the strength of argument:

We don't have a guy in a native american costume running around: Who is this "we"? Does it include Chief Zee, the "unofficial mascot" of the Skins? http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/images/photos/001/108/962/55988858_crop_650x440.jpg?1294765089

we don't do the ridiculous chop or condescending indian chants, we don't even reference scalping in our 80 year old fight song: That is because today's version has been largely sanitized (except for the "braves on the warpath" line) Guess which ones were eliminated--considerably less than 80 years ago.

Hail to the Redskins!

Hail Victory!

Braves on the Warpath!

Fight for old Dixie!

Run or pass and score -- we want a lot more!

Scalp 'em, swamp 'em -- We will take 'em big score

Read 'em, weep 'em, touchdown - we want heap more

Fight on, Fight on -- 'Till you have won

Sons of Wash-ing-ton. Rah!, Rah!, Rah!

[MadScientist]

If they just told Dan that changing the name would result in a ton of crap with the new name being sold, I'd bet he'd consider it.

The could change the name to the Pig Skins which would keep the 'Skins nickname and also work with the 'hogs' name for the o-line. The Pig Skins name would only offend PETA, and offending them is a good thing.

[mraynrand]

Hail to the Redskins!

Hail Victory!

Braves on the Warpath!

Fight for old Dixie!

Run or pass and score -- we want a lot more!

Scalp 'em, swamp 'em -- We will take 'em big score

Read 'em, weep 'em, touchdown - we want heap more

Fight on, Fight on -- 'Till you have won

Sons of Wash-ing-ton. Rah!, Rah!, Rah!


You could get 'em away with that years ago, but not now when owe heap money to casino

[mraynrand]

I do not recall the basis the judge used to dismiss or find in favor of the defendant. My criteria are just my criteria, not from that case.

But I find the idea of random sample polling (correctly done) as not representative of the larger whole to be an attack on reason in general.

I agree with the second, and as to the first, I meant what I gleaned to be your criteria, and what I think should be the criteria generally

[Freak Out]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4f/D%26DRoc.JPG/200px-D%26DRoc.JPG

A Roc.

[cheesner]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fe/FightingWhites.png/200px-FightingWhites.png

my vote

[woodbuck27]

(re: Pollin) Yeah, it was long ago I had to look up the particulars. In fact, that story seems almost too pat, but I couldn't find an account contrary to those facts. Who knows, he might have needed to put fannies in the seats and thought it would help. I just don't remember a campaign over it.

I don't have much patience for legal means to force the Redskins nickname to change*, but I am equally impatient with people who try to dodge that the Redskins name is a slur. Its just an excuse to make the fans feel better, but its a slur none-the-less. Also, while Skinbasket clone feels better that his stadium doesn't do the chop or have a Native American in full dress roaming the sideline, he should take time to mention the helmet logo.

Opponents just ought to play the long game and continually remind fans that they are celebrating a racial slur.

A better question is the Warriors nickname. That one makes the most sense.

*Great moment in judicial non-understanding over this issue. In a lawsuit over the Redskin nickname that was ultimately lost by the plaintiffs, the ruling judge held as fact that it could not be proven that a plurality or majority of Indigenous People in the area felt disrespected over the name. He concluded that such information was a practical impossibility and that the polling data that the plaintiff had submitted was just a poll of certain people and couldn't possibly, correctly convey the sentiment of the whole population. :)

"*Great moment in judicial non-understanding over this issue. In a lawsuit over the Redskin nickname that was ultimately lost by the plaintiffs, the ruling judge held as fact that it could not be proven that a plurality or majority of Indigenous People in the area felt disrespected over the name. He concluded that such information was a practical impossibility and that the polling data that the plaintiff had submitted was just a poll of certain people and couldn't possibly, correctly convey the sentiment of the whole population." pbmax

I'm guessing that that particular judge wasn't a political appointment. That he was generally disinterested and ignorant of politics.

[red]

i really do think they should go for a less offensive name

maybe the "silly negros"?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Minstrel_dancer_1.jpg

[sooner6600]

Red:

Why not Foreskins.

This woulld be in keeping with GLBT comunity and be soooooo inclusive.

Why cant we get along?

Thoughts?

[CaptainD]

USFL had it right >>>> Washington Federals

http://www.thenewusfl.com/images/helmet-federals.gif

[MadtownPacker]

This is a great topic so let's keep politics out of the thread so it doesn't get moved.

[swede]

Red:

Why not Foreskins.



Foreskin joke:

A mohel walks into leatherworker's shop and dumps a sack of foreskins onto the counter. He says to the man, "I've saved these for twenty years. Make me something nice with them. I'll be back in a week."

The week passes and the mohel returns. The leatherworker pushes a beautiful coin purse across the counter and says, "This is some of my best work."

"Whaat?" says the mohel, "I give you a whole sack of foreskins and this is all I get? It's so small!"

"Rub it," said the leatherworker, "it turns into a suitcase."

[Pugger]

But your previous post seems to suggest that the two critical elements of a derogatory symbol have to be 1) that it represents a (presumably oppressed) minority, and 2) that the symbol actually has to be viewed as offensive by the purportedly offended party. Which helps explain the reality that the Seminoles like being represented by a college team.

Yes, the Seminole Tribe of Florida officially sanctions the use of the Seminole as Florida State University’s nickname and of Osceola as FSU's symbol. Max Osceola, the chief and general council president of the Seminole Tribe of Florida, has stated that he regards it as an “honor” to be associated with the university. The university has a student wear attire approved by the Tribe to come out on a horse with a flaming spear before each home game. Maybe if the Redskins approach a local tribe and do likewise - change their name to a particular tribe (and all other institutions that want to use a Native American symbol) they can put an end to this controversy.

[woodbuck27]

This is a great topic so let's keep politics out of the thread so it doesn't get moved.

I felt this was coming. It's very slow right now.

[Smeefers]

As for the Fightin' Whiteys and their shirts, the quote covers all the relevant differences. The Whitey are the majority and some/most in the area feel no particular compunction about the name being used by a minority group for profit. Its benign enough to, literally, buy into. Also, while Whitey might very well be used in a derogatory sense, there are multiple positive examples of it. Unless you are describing a potato, its not really an analogue for Redskins.

I doubt the same reaction would be had if that team was named the Fightin' Hibes or Fightin' Kikes.

The Redskins are not about to hand over a portion of ownership to Indigenous Americans nor are they currently sharing royalties over their trademarks.

Skinbasket Clone may feel that no disrespect intended washes his hands clean, but he is only one end of the communication. In a commercial enterprise, the intent of a consumer is pretty irrelevant.

I disagree with your analogy to the fightin hibes or kikes.

It would more be like the fighting tanskins or the whiteskins or the blackskins

It's nowhere near something like the fighting n<censored>rskins.

[pbmax]

Yes, the Seminole Tribe of Florida officially sanctions the use of the Seminole as Florida State University’s nickname and of Osceola as FSU's symbol. Max Osceola, the chief and general council president of the Seminole Tribe of Florida, has stated that he regards it as an “honor” to be associated with the university. The university has a student wear attire approved by the Tribe to come out on a horse with a flaming spear before each home game. Maybe if the Redskins approach a local tribe and do likewise - change their name to a particular tribe (and all other institutions that want to use a Native American symbol) they can put an end to this controversy.

Yes. I wonder what the difference here is between the Seminoles and the Fighting Sioux of North Dakota. At one point, they school had at least a business relationship with the tribe and sanction with their arena or perhaps a sponsorship for a gate. But apparently something was different here than in Florida because they are being forced to change (last I heard) and the Seminoles are not.

[Fritz]

Yes, the Seminole Tribe of Florida officially sanctions the use of the Seminole as Florida State University’s nickname and of Osceola as FSU's symbol. Max Osceola, the chief and general council president of the Seminole Tribe of Florida, has stated that he regards it as an “honor” to be associated with the university. The university has a student wear attire approved by the Tribe to come out on a horse with a flaming spear before each home game. Maybe if the Redskins approach a local tribe and do likewise - change their name to a particular tribe (and all other institutions that want to use a Native American symbol) they can put an end to this controversy.

Maybe they could be the Punchin' Potowatamis.

Or the Red Skin Baskets.

[pbmax]

I disagree with your analogy to the fightin hibes or kikes.

It would more be like the fighting tanskins or the whiteskins or the blackskins

It's nowhere near something like the fighting n<censored>rskins.

Perhaps not as flammable as the fightin' n<censored>skins, but I think it has a history of derogatory usage beyond a simple comparable of color of skin. Yellow man, maybe, but I think closer to chink. The redskin usage is uncommon enough today that it doesn't seem at all to rise to the level of the n-word*, but I think its history is more bleak than recently memory has it. Having not done any reading on it beyond this topic, probably makes me unqualified to judge a comparison between the two.

If they approached the tribes, I wonder if any of them would take them up on some kind of offer. The Seminoles were mentioned earlier, but redskin is general enough I am not sure any tribe would want to touch it.


* At some point I will be adult enough to simply type n-word out correctly like I did chink, but something always holds me back. I think I fear Richard Pryor (or maybe Michael Richards) yelling at me from the stage.

[pbmax]

Maybe they could be the Punchin' Potowatamis.

Or the Red Skin Baskets.

They would never do it, but the Potato logo would be fantastic.

http://mr-nethead.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Washington_Redskins_Helmet_improved_thumb.jpg

[pbmax]

I agree with the second, and as to the first, I meant what I gleaned to be your criteria, and what I think should be the criteria generally

I see. I think the generic names, like Warriors should be available. Specific, like Seminoles or Sioux, would need the consent of the group as they have legal standing in the US, minority or insult not withstanding.

Insults like Redmen, Redskins and Chief Wahoo should be left for the team and the public to debate. So online petitions and mock Twitter accounts.

[KYPack]

I heard a story that the DC organization has already copyrighted the name "Buckskins".

That way they could keep their copyright on the shortened "Skins" nickname.

[King Friday]

Just call them the Spooks...and let them have access to the NSA database to compile the most massive playbook in the history of football. Forget a binder, you'll need a couple warehouses.

[pbmax]

Just call them the Spooks...and let them have access to the NSA database to compile the most massive playbook in the history of football. Forget a binder, you'll need a couple warehouses.

Desk Jockeys or Bureaucrat No. 5

[mraynrand]

I see. I think the generic names, like Warriors should be available.

I recall Marquette changing their name. I also remember back in the day, you would go to the game and a college kid would come out at halftime and do an authentic Indian dance. The thing was legit, but I guess it aroused the ire of the sensitive types. Ironic thing was that just a generation later I recall my kindergarten kid (In Madison, no less) going to an authentic Indian dance celebrating Native American Heritage and it was almost exactly the same thing, except that it was promoted for a week on NPR prior to the field trip. I guess if it's in the name of Capitalism it's evil and demeaning, but in the name of celebrating diversity, it's great. Context, context...



Specific, like Seminoles or Sioux, would need the consent of the group as they have legal standing in the US, minority or insult not withstanding.

Insults like Redmen, Redskins and Chief Wahoo should be left for the team and the public to debate. So online petitions and mock Twitter accounts.

that's pretty good parsing and it makes sense

[mraynrand]

Just call them the Spooks...and let them have access to the NSA database to compile the most massive playbook in the history of football. Forget a binder, you'll need a couple warehouses.

The Washington Spooks - not controversial at all! I always was partial to the "Washington Monuments," especially if the players were a bunch of stiffs

[woodbuck27]

Maybe they could be the Punchin' Potowatamis.

Or the Red Skin Baskets.

The Punchin' Potowatamis.

You just made 'my Lady' Mae laugh Fritz. Mae says that she's 'a lover' not a fighter.

Also...that's spelled Potawatomi. Mae's origin is one half Potawatomi (Maternal); the other half French-Quebecois (Paternal).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potawatomi

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebecois

[mraynrand]

I heard a story that the DC organization has already copyrighted the name "Buckskins".

That way they could keep their copyright on the shortened "Skins" nickname.

Sheepskins, Potatoskins, Thinskins (you could nickname them the asshats, and get banned), Rednoses, Redrums, Redinks, Redlines.....

[pbmax]

I recall Marquette changing their name. I also remember back in the day, you would go to the game and a college kid would come out at halftime and do an authentic Indian dance. The thing was legit, but I guess it aroused the ire of the sensitive types. Ironic thing was that just a generation later I recall my kindergarten kid (In Madison, no less) going to an authentic Indian dance celebrating Native American Heritage and it was almost exactly the same thing, except that it was promoted for a week on NPR prior to the field trip. I guess if it's in the name of Capitalism it's evil and demeaning, but in the name of celebrating diversity, it's great. Context, context...


That is the unfortunate thing about time and distance. If Marquette had been a little more careful earlier, perhaps either sought sanction or invited the tribes to participate with the kid/mascot, I think it could have been avoided.

No one can convince me that a school in Milwaukee (named Marquette (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Marquette) for God's sake) and in a State that was/is home to several tribes could not have found classes, performances and real world interaction/internships/scholarships/etc that incorporated actual Indigenous Culture with the school that would have made sticking with Warriors possible.

And I think the school would have benefitted far more than the Tribes in a way that had nothing to do with a kid dressed up at halftime.

But I am an incorrigible optimist.

[mraynrand]

Pugilistic Potomacs

Cantankerous Constitutionalists

Lillylivered Lawgivers

[denverYooper]

Just call them the Spooks...and let them have access to the NSA database to compile the most massive playbook in the history of football. Forget a binder, you'll need a couple warehouses.

The playbook is streaming in real time.

I second the "spooks". That was my first thought on the name change too.

[swede]

That is the unfortunate thing about time and distance. If Marquette had been a little more careful earlier, perhaps either sought sanction or invited the tribes to participate with the kid/mascot, I think it could have been avoided.

No one can convince me that a school in Milwaukee (named Marquette (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Marquette) for God's sake) and in a State that was/is home to several tribes could not have found classes, performances and real world interaction/internships/scholarships/etc that incorporated actual Indigenous Culture with the school that would have made sticking with Warriors possible.

And I think the school would have benefitted far more than the Tribes in a way that had nothing to do with a kid dressed up at halftime.

But I am an incorrigible optimist.

The whole point of Marquette changing their name was liberal scraping. It wouldn't have been any fun for them if it was a pragmatic decision addressing an actual grievance. It isn't problem-solving or addressing a real issue. Once upon a time the name was selected because it meant something fierce and noble. The name was dropped because the action had political meaning.

[pbmax]

wrong thread

[Guiness]

This is a great topic so let's keep politics out of the thread so it doesn't get moved.

Well...it's a topic about DC. The Senate is getting involved.

Methinks it's inherently political!

[swede]

Well...it's a topic about DC. The Senate is getting involved.

Methinks it's inherently political!

It is inherently political...for institutions and constituencies that wish to change names of sports teams, or at least it is a kind of social activism that is clearly aligned with a political agenda.

It is not political for the constituencies that want to keep the names of sports teams as they are. Those constituencies are loyal and local and far more numerous than those agitating for change, generally speaking, and they usually cannot stand up to the pressure exerted by people skilled in the use of media.

As far as I am concerned the re-naming of any sports team does not bother me greatly. The Viking blood that runs through my veins does not connect me in any way to that awful purple team, but it has made me susceptible to sunburn.

[MJZiggy]

The whole Warrior name change thing was stupid. I agree that the name was originally intended to be complimentary and they could have left well enough alone. Snyder (who actually owns the team--not Congress) has said he's not changing the name.

And for the record there is no way that the op could have been Skinbasket. He would NEVER misspell "douchebags."

[pbmax]

The whole Warrior name change thing was stupid. I agree that the name was originally intended to be complimentary and they could have left well enough alone. Snyder (who actually owns the team--not Congress) has said he's not changing the name.

And for the record there is no way that the op could have been Skinbasket. He would NEVER misspell "douchebags."

The name would have been far more complimentary if they had abandoned the logos and accoutrements earlier. The fact that these did change over time points to the fact that far-sighted admins could have acted in such a way to prevent name trouble by courting the Tribes earlier.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQu62QsjMfcB-ODas8VIMOOBDbdkkHSaCXc-lUop1njM8YVY8tN

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/--CLZk6KWRqc/R5wDzw2145I/AAAAAAAAAWo/TnYRbJ6CkP4/warriorspennant.jpg

[pbmax]

This is far better, though if that's a Badger on his head then I reserve the right to change my mind.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7207/6822497708_800b949bc8_z.jpg

[swede]

The name would have been far more complimentary if they had abandoned the logos and accoutrements earlier. The fact that these did change over time points to the fact that far-sighted admins could have acted in such a way to prevent name trouble by courting the Tribes earlier.

You right about this. I find the Washington Redskins name is pretty awkward, but their logo is cool. The Atlanta Braves nickname is cool, but Chief Wahoo is as insulting as a 1940's Warner Brothers cartoon.

The images you found are old for a reason. They were outdated and reflected badly on the school. But the Chief Wahoo image still shows up, doesn't it?



http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQu62QsjMfcB-ODas8VIMOOBDbdkkHSaCXc-lUop1njM8YVY8tN

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/--CLZk6KWRqc/R5wDzw2145I/AAAAAAAAAWo/TnYRbJ6CkP4/warriorspennant.jpg

[Pugger]

The Washington Spooks - not controversial at all! I always was partial to the "Washington Monuments," especially if the players were a bunch of stiffs

:lol:

[Pugger]

The whole Warrior name change thing was stupid. I agree that the name was originally intended to be complimentary and they could have left well enough alone. Snyder (who actually owns the team--not Congress) has said he's not changing the name.

And for the record there is no way that the op could have been Skinbasket. He would NEVER misspell "douchebags."

This is what I don't get - even if the symbol is kinda silly like the Cleveland Indians these teams originally chose these symbols because of their fierceness and were complimentary. Why are these teams being forced to change are now going with birds of prey? They aren't gonna call themselves the Marquette Warblers or Sparrows.

[pbmax]

You right about this. I find the Washington Redskins name is pretty awkward, but their logo is cool. The Atlanta Braves nickname is cool, but Chief Wahoo is as insulting as a 1940's Warner Brothers cartoon.

The images you found are old for a reason. They were outdated and reflected badly on the school. But the Chief Wahoo image still shows up, doesn't it?

Yep. In fact the Indians went away from it for a while, using just a 'C', but went back to it at the new stadium I think.

But the fact that folks did eventually find the caricatures of the Warrior in bad taste, I think, points out that people were beginning to be uneasy with the idea.

But rather than simply restrict themselves to less offensive images, if they had embraced the culture they were expropriating, they would have stood a better chance.

[pbmax]

This is what I don't get - even if the symbol is kinda silly like the Cleveland Indians these teams originally chose these symbols because of their fierceness and were complimentary. Why are these teams being forced to change are now going with birds of prey? They aren't gonna call themselves the Marquette Warblers or Sparrows.

1. They aren't actually Indians of course. It would be more like naming the team the Cleveland Russkies in honor of the local Ukrainian population.
2. The logo is about as offensive as it could be unless it was trying to threaten you with an ax.
3. The mascot at halftime is doing a dance that has nothing to do with a sporting event, is not explained nor given context and is probably wearing an outfit that contains items associated with tribes that didn't live in the area.
4. The University sells the merchandise now associated with the logo, name and dancer and its an open question whether anyone related to an indigenous tribe will benefit from it.
5. People associated with indigenous tribes might have little to do with the University itself. Either enrollment, areas of study, Board of Trustees, etc.
6. The school was named after a missionary. Members of indigenous tribes might have a different opinion of Catholic missionaries that the Catholic School students who make up a substantial portion of the student population. Marquette seems to have had a good relationship with those he encountered, it was not always so with other missionaries.

[mraynrand]

The Joustin' Jesuits of Marquette!

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.5034261035091014&pid=15.1

NONE SHALL PASS!

[mraynrand]

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQu62QsjMfcB-ODas8VIMOOBDbdkkHSaCXc-lUop1njM8YVY8tN


I bet this one was nixed because it frightened young children - and was probably made with highly friable asbestos-laden plaster-like material.

[Iron Mike]

How about the Washington Roosevelt Franklins???

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120611111561/muppet/images/5/56/RooseveltFranklin.jpg

They could keep the same colors and everything...

[sooner6600]

Swede;

Chief Wahoo is Cleveland Indians
Chief Knock a Homma is Atlanta.

Willie Wampum is Marquette.

Some facts are hard to come by, uffdah


Good ole Southeastern State has a liberal fit and changed the name from Savages to Savage Storm.

Pee You.

I for one like Warner Brothers 1930's 1940's cartoons.

The Woody Woodpecker and Terri Toons are not for the most dainty of liberal thought process, if any.:jig:

[Smeefers]

Swede;

Chief Wahoo is Cleveland Indians
Chief Knock a Homma is Atlanta.

Willie Wampum is Marquette.

Some facts are hard to come by, uffdah


Good ole Southeastern State has a liberal fit and changed the name from Savages to Savage Storm.

Pee You.

I for one like Warner Brothers 1930's 1940's cartoons.

The Woody Woodpecker and Terri Toons are not for the most dainty of liberal thought process, if any.:jig:

Uffdah? Oh gosh. Here we go.

Ole and Lars were working for the city public works department in Wisconsin. Ole would dig a hole and Lars would follow behind and fill the hole in. They worked up one side of the street, then down the other, then moved on to the next street, working furiously all day without rest, one digging a hole, the other filling it in again.

An onlooker was amazed at their hard work, but couldn't understand what they were doing. So he asked Ole, 'I'm impressed by the effort you two are putting in to your work, but I don't get it -- why do you dig a hole, only to have your partner follow behind and fill it up again?'

Ole, the hole digger, wiped his brow and sighed, 'Vell, I suppose it probably looks odd because ve're normally a three-person team. But today Sven, who plants da trees called in sick.'

[Iron Mike]

Ole, Lena & Sven are fishing in Northern Wisconsin one summer. Sven accidentally drops his sunglasses in the water and decides to go in after them. After awhile, he fails to come up and Ole & Lena both remember Sven can't swim. Ole goes in after him and after a bit, gets the body up into the boat. After starting mouth-to-mouth..Ole says "I don't recall Sven having breath this bad"...To which Lena replies..."I don't think he was wearing that snowmobile suit either".

[woodbuck27]

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/cold-hard-football-facts-blog/roger-goodell-defends-redskins-name-letter-to-congress/23059/

Roger Goodell Defends Redskins Name In Letter To Congress


Cold, Hard Football Facts for Jun 12, 2013

[pbmax]

I bet this one was nixed because it frightened young children - and was probably made with highly friable asbestos-laden plaster-like material.

It seems to be of a piece with the Indians logo. It must have been part of a trend in cartoons or comics or something.

[swede]

It seems to be of a piece with the Indians logo. It must have been part of a trend in cartoons or comics or something.

It always struck me as funny that trumpets went "Bwaa Duh Bwaa dint duh duuh!" every time the Indians showed up in a movie or a cartoon, like it was a jazz band of Indians at the top of the rise. I always wondered when that meme got its start.

[falco]

This is a tough issue. I think the main reason is because the name has been around so long and most are desensitized to it. I can't imagine an expansion team being given a similar name today.

[mraynrand]

It always struck me as funny that trumpets went "Bwaa Duh Bwaa dint duh duuh!" every time the Indians showed up in a movie or a cartoon, like it was a jazz band of Indians at the top of the rise. I always wondered when that meme got its start.

It's a well known fact that indians love jazz

[pbmax]

It's a well known fact that indians love jazz

And they could have gotten a bugle or two from F Troop.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVwFADi4Y38

[Joemailman]

This doesn't add anything to the discussion, but it was considered pretty funny when it came out:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8do9Y1rwQeA

[mraynrand]

This doesn't add anything to the discussion....

welcome to Packerrats

[Zool]

Shouldn't the Cleveland Indians have Sanjai Najanamabad as a mascot?

As PB has pointed out (if I read correctly in my skimming), it's not the association with the tribes that gets to some people it's the name itself. The 49ers could be renamed the yellowskins I suppose. The team could wear socks and sandals instead of cleats and carry around digital cameras.

LA's next expansion team should be the brownskins, and they could all come on to the field in low riders with murals painted on the back shooting pistols in the air.

[Noodle]

I have a simple test -- could you go into a bar filled with native americans and shout out, "Hi'ya, Redskins"?

Apply the same test to a bar full of Scandinavians, this time referring to the denizens as "Vikings" -- you'd be drinking free all night.

So don't waste my time with false equivalencies. This should be easy. The name is clearly offensive and archaic. And just because it's been used for a long time doesn't mean squat. The passage of time does not make stupid stuff unstupid; it just makes it stupider that it's not getting fixed.

And, as MadScientist pointed out, there's such an easy solution. Call 'em the "PigSkins." The fightsong can be easily modified (substitute "Hogs" for "Braves"), and the hog merchandising opportunities should make the front-office drool.

This needs to happen.

[woodbuck27]

I have a simple test -- could you go into a bar filled with native americans and shout out, "Hi'ya, Redskins"?

Apply the same test to a bar full of Scandinavians, this time referring to the denizens as "Vikings" -- you'd be drinking free all night.

So don't waste my time with false equivalencies. This should be easy. The name is clearly offensive and archaic. And just because it's been used for a long time doesn't mean squat. The passage of time does not make stupid stuff unstupid; it just makes it stupider that it's not getting fixed.

And, as MadScientist pointed out, there's such an easy solution. Call 'em the "PigSkins." The fightsong can be easily modified (substitute "Hogs" for "Braves"), and the hog merchandising opportunities should make the front-office drool.

This needs to happen.

Hi Noodle:

Your use of analogy and logic makes the question look simple.

[pbmax]

Serious question, do Scandinavians really react well to being called Vikings?

[RashanGary]

Black people were enslaved and victims of horrible mistreatment. Native Americans were victims of a near genocide. Maybe we should change the Panthers name to the Carolina Niggers? Maybe the San Francisco faggots? These are complimentary terms coming from the likes of Dan Schnieder, no?

Fuck that, just rename your stupid team and shut up.

[MadtownPacker]

LA's next expansion team should be the brownskins, and they could all come on to the field in low riders with murals painted on the back shooting pistols in the air.As a Brownskin I must say I find nothing offensive about this.

[MadtownPacker]

Black people were enslaved and victims of horrible mistreatment. Native Americans were victims of a near genocide. Maybe we should change the Panthers name to the Carolina Niggers? Maybe the San Francisco faggots? These are complimentary terms coming from the likes of Dan Schnieder, no?

Fuck that, just rename your stupid team and shut up.Stupid. It's just a name of a sports team. What about all those towns in Wisconsin that have Native American names, you gonna rename them too?

[Pugger]

And I of Irish descent have no issues with Notre Dame and that silly leprechaun as their mascot.

[pbmax]

Black people were enslaved and victims of horrible mistreatment. Native Americans were victims of a near genocide. Maybe we should change the Panthers name to the Carolina Niggers? Maybe the San Francisco faggots? These are complimentary terms coming from the likes of Dan Schnieder, no?

Fuck that, just rename your stupid team and shut up.

C'mon JH. Keep it civil. There is disagreement in this thread but so far we have managed to keep it on an even keel.

[RashanGary]

Stupid. It's just a name of a sports team. What about all those towns in Wisconsin that have Native American names, you gonna rename them too?

There are a lot of native people who consider that word as offensive as nigger or faggot. Are they stupid for being offended by racial slurs?

It's just the name of a sports team. Change it.

[RashanGary]

C'mon JH. Keep it civil. There is disagreement in this thread but so far we have managed to keep it on an even keel.

It's the reality. White-folk nearly succeeded in killing their entire race of people. I guess there are so few of them that using slurs against native people sounds kind of cute and funny -vs- saying nigger in public where a black man might punch you in your stupid face. Just because they're mostly dead and silent doesn't mean the reality of how they feel should be ignored.

[MadtownPacker]

And I of Irish descent have no issues with Notre Dame and that silly leprechaun as their mascot.
How about always being portrayed as drunk and ready to brawl? :lol:

[MadtownPacker]

There are a lot of native people who consider that word as offensive as nigger or faggot. Are they stupid for being offended by racial slurs?

It's just the name of a sports team. Change it.
Agreed that some are likely highly offended but if there was a US Swimming team called "The Wetbacks" I would laugh and not raise a fuss. That doesnt make me stupid either so I guess it is just a matter of personal feelings.

[RashanGary]

Agreed that some are likely highly offended but if there was a US Swimming team called "The Wetbacks" I would laugh and not raise a fuss. That doesnt make me stupid either so I guess it is just a matter of personal feelings.

I get it. I just think we're so immune to slurs against native people, it would help to bring in some other slurs we're not so immune to. Nigger was a common word once upon a time. That word is just a matter of personal feelings too. All words are. Good for the black people in our country, there were enough to stand up and make it so it's a word nobody dares say anymore. Now it's the natives turn. It's the name of a football team not his fucking child. Change it.

[Joemailman]

Stupid. It's just a name of a sports team. What about all those towns in Wisconsin that have Native American names, you gonna rename them too?

I only have a problem with the ones that are racial slurs. It might be worth noting that George Preston Marshall, who changed the name of the team from Braves to Redskins, did not have a great record on racial policy. His was the last NFL team to integrate, and by more than a decade. In fact, it wasn't until the Kennedy administration threatened to disallow them from playing in the new Washington stadium, which was paid for by tax dollars, that he signed a black player. So it's certainly possible the name Redskins was chosen because it was a racial slur, not despite it. You can have a team name that honors native American heritage without having a controversy like this. They should change it.

[RashanGary]

My thoughts have changed over the years. I probably wouldnt have cared three years ago, but i was listening to a black guy on the radio say the native americans felt it was a slur and I thought, "why fight so hard to keep a name people feel slurred by."

If you're so in love with the native culture, bring in a native ownership party and name it something that group feels honors its people or at least ask first. They don't care. Theyd change it if they cared about the native culture. This is about a powerful man wanting to do what he wants to do and a group of people using the power in their numbers to establish respect. Im rooting for the natives, and honestly, haha to the people who, despite their mpney, are still ruled by the power of people. Get in line. iIf you dont like our society, go somewhere you like better.

If Schneider gets away with it, good for him, but Im rooting for the natives and Ill get a laugh if Schneider throws a little hissy fit and sells his team :)

[Pugger]

How about always being portrayed as drunk and ready to brawl? :lol:

I don't mind having a drink or 3 but I'm not much of a brawler. ;-) :lol:

[mraynrand]

It's just the name of a sports team. Change it.

That's a good point. In the grand scheme of things, it's really a small matter.

Of course there are other considerations driving activists to change names, or for people to resist the change but they are ideological and/or political.

[mraynrand]

Im rooting for the natives, and honestly, haha to the people who, despite their mpney, are still ruled by the power of people.

As a hint to ideological aspect, without going FYI on you, consider that sometimes - not necessarily in this particular case - the will of the people is wrong and the people with mpney are right, so that the best thing is to be ruled by consistent eternal principles as far as possible.

[mraynrand]

You can have a team name that honors native American heritage without having a controversy like this. They should change it.

Sure you can do both. I wonder just what the actual harm is in the name of the franchise. How many people are having their lives destroyed by the negative image of the Redskins versus the joy it elicits. Can we measure that? Or should a single offended voice, or two , three, sixty or five hundred be the standard? And should that same principle of offense extend to other areas of social life? After all, it's just a sports team, right?

[mraynrand]

Native Americans were victims of a near genocide..

that's inaccurate, but if you want a history lesson, start a thread in FYI

[Smeefers]

I suppose Joe kind of hit the nail on the head. When the team name was created, was Redskin considered a racial slur? We can all look at it today and go Oh sure, of course it was. It's obvious!

But it's not.

Back in the day, for all I know, Redskin was akin to saying Negro. Close but no cigar.

What if in 100 years, Packer is considered a homophobic slur? Should the packers have to change their name? Even though Packer never really was a homophobic slur, it was close. Close enough to where all "the gays" are up in arms over this obviously insulting name. "You know what the packers used to do to opponents? They used to fuck them right in the ass. How is this name still around? Hell, the Vikings fans still call them fudge packers! This is an outrage!"

[mraynrand]

"You know what the packers used to do to opponents? They used to fuck them right in the ass. How is this name still around? Hell, the Vikings fans still call them fudge packers! This is an outrage!"

lol

http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq254/mraynrand/grossman1.jpg

[MJZiggy]

How about always being portrayed as drunk and ready to brawl? :lol:

I thought that was just a Wisconsin thing...

[RashanGary]

As a hint to ideological aspect, without going FYI on you, consider that sometimes - not necessarily in this particular case - the will of the people is wrong and the people with mpney are right, so that the best thing is to be ruled by consistent eternal principles as far as possible.

We can get into ideology, principle or anything else. I understand the natives not wanting a professional football team called the "Redskins" and I find it funny to see Schneider wiggle while he tries to get his way.

What's he going to do? Go to the grave fighting these stupid little fights? He has enough money to just live life, but here he is, all bent out of shape over doing a decent thing for a group of people. He seems like a miserable, pathetic old man. He's proof you can have everything and nothing at all at the same time.

[Iron Mike]

I'd be all about the Brooklyn Kikes:

http://kissingsuzykolber.uproxx.com/2013/06/taiwanese-animators-come-up-with-other-racist-team-names.html

[KYPack]

I suppose Joe kind of hit the nail on the head. When the team name was created, was Redskin considered a racial slur? We can all look at it today and go Oh sure, of course it was. It's obvious!

But it's not.

Back in the day, for all I know, Redskin was akin to saying Negro. Close but no cigar.

What if in 100 years, Packer is considered a homophobic slur? Should the packers have to change their name? Even though Packer never really was a homophobic slur, it was close. Close enough to where all "the gays" are up in arms over this obviously insulting name. "You know what the packers used to do to opponents? They used to fuck them right in the ass. How is this name still around? Hell, the Vikings fans still call them fudge packers! This is an outrage!"

My favorite fan sign was displayed in a long ago Monday nite game.

GB vs The 49ers.

A Frisco fan held up a sign that read "Pack the Pack".

Don Meredith quipped, "People are weird up here".

[pbmax]

I only have a problem with the ones that are racial slurs. It might be worth noting that George Preston Marshall, who changed the name of the team from Braves to Redskins, did not have a great record on racial policy. His was the last NFL team to integrate, and by more than a decade. In fact, it wasn't until the Kennedy administration threatened to disallow them from playing in the new Washington stadium, which was paid for by tax dollars, that he signed a black player. So it's certainly possible the name Redskins was chosen because it was a racial slur, not despite it. You can have a team name that honors native American heritage without having a controversy like this. They should change it.

I read somewhere he had a relative, I am guessing a non-sibling, who was 1/64th cherokee or something along those lines. But I can't find the reference now.

[pbmax]

That's a good point. In the grand scheme of things, it's really a small matter.

Of course there are other considerations driving activists to change names, or for people to resist the change but they are ideological and/or political.

Sometimes its a business concern. One of the reasons Marshall fought integration was that his best markets (mostly untapped until the Cowboys arrived in Dallas) were all Southern.

Now, a name change would generate a lot of revenue in new merchandise sales, though its hard to estimate what losses in other areas might occur.

[hoosier]

Sometimes its a business concern. One of the reasons Marshall fought integration was that his best markets (mostly untapped until the Cowboys arrived in Dallas) were all Southern.

Now, a name change would generate a lot of revenue in new merchandise sales, though its hard to estimate what losses in other areas might occur.

It could be that Marshall's resistance to integration had a commercial basis. After all, his major talent as an owner seemed to be a knack for creating spectacles (see below). But the unapologetic racism had to have been more than just a marketing ploy. When he died Marshall left a lot of money to a foundation he set up to help DC kids in areas like health, welfare, education and sports. Sounds like a good deed, right? But then he went and tried to insert a clause in the will saying that none of the money could be used to support racial integration in any form (the clause got shot down in the courts). And then they buried him in a West Virginia cemetery whose name is Indian Mound.

http://assets.nybooks.com/media/photo/2011/10/18/tomasky_1-111011_jpg_630x501_crop_q85.jpg

[mraynrand]

It could be that Marshall's resistance to integration had a commercial basis. After all, his major talent as an owner seemed to be a knack for creating spectacles (see below). But the unapologetic racism had to have been more than just a marketing ploy. When he died Marshall left a lot of money to a foundation he set up to help DC kids in areas like health, welfare, education and sports. Sounds like a good deed, right? But then he went and tried to insert a clause in the will saying that none of the money could be used to support racial integration in any form (the clause got shot down in the courts). And then they buried him in a West Virginia cemetery whose name is Indian Mound.

Thank god in the modern progressive world no one self-segregates anymore!

[Guiness]

The Sterling story has both knocked the Redskins name off the top of the list, but also raised the profile in general.

One question I've have is why the Redskins seem to (current events notwithstanding) attract all the attention, and little or nothing is said about the Indians, Braves, Blackhawks and Chiefs. If I was to pick the most offensive of those 5, I'd say it was the Indians because it's both an insult and a generalization. In my associations with natives (quite a lot through elementary and high school) calling someone an Indian was derogatory and generally meant you were looking for trouble - I'd guess pretty close to using the term nigger.

[bobblehead]

The Sterling story has both knocked the Redskins name off the top of the list, but also raised the profile in general.

One question I've have is why the Redskins seem to (current events notwithstanding) attract all the attention, and little or nothing is said about the Indians, Braves, Blackhawks and Chiefs. If I was to pick the most offensive of those 5, I'd say it was the Indians because it's both an insult and a generalization. In my associations with natives (quite a lot through elementary and high school) calling someone an Indian was derogatory and generally meant you were looking for trouble - I'd guess pretty close to using the term nigger.

Indian isn't offensive any more than Caucasian is. Redskin is offensive because its a description with no positive interpretation (unless you find red skin attractive I guess). Chiefs and Braves could be construed as complimentary in most manners. I believe Blackhawks were an actual tribe (??). If I owned the Redskins I would change their name to the mighty whiteys and end the subject.

[mraynrand]

Which is worse:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MbaAfHIa2A


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifv-3aSEckA


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk36qmiVBWw

[pbmax]

Indian isn't offensive any more than Caucasian is. Redskin is offensive because its a description with no positive interpretation (unless you find red skin attractive I guess). Chiefs and Braves could be construed as complimentary in most manners. I believe Blackhawks were an actual tribe (??). If I owned the Redskins I would change their name to the mighty whiteys and end the subject.

Context is everything re: Indians


http://www.newrepublic.com/sites/default/files/chief-wahoo-racist-offensive_0.jpg

[woodbuck27]

Context is everything re: Indians


http://www.newrepublic.com/sites/default/files/chief-wahoo-racist-offensive_0.jpg

In my view this simply has to come down to what the American Native population generally says or feels about the Washington Redskin name.

Should any non native stand in for a justifiable or valued comment?

[mraynrand]

I'm in favor of changing the nickname for Cleveland to the "Heroin Addicts" The heroin trade is exploding in Cleveland and the mascot should represent modern social trends. Base the logo on this guy, in the spirit of Chief Wahoo... (Cleveland: we put the HERO in heroin!)

http://www.topaccountingdegrees.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/6.-Gibby-Haynes-GÇô-Musician.jpg

[mraynrand]

Or better yet: the Cleveland Heroines - it's kinda gender inclusive and ambiguous all at the same time.

[pbmax]

Heroin definitely conveys a good time but its also a national phenomenon not unique to Cleveland and a lot of the work of the industry has been out-souced offshore.

If going this direction, I would go with the Meth-Heads. Fun and national too, but local production facilities make it seem like a homegrown industry. Also takes advantage of popular culture popularity.


http://my-moonraker.com/breaking-bad-heisenberg-drawing-21.jpg

[mraynrand]

Meth-head is too negative. So is heroin (there is an active campaign in Cleveland to 'fight' it). So 'Cleveland Heroines' is perfect because to oppose it would expose you as a misogynistic, bigoted pig.

[denverYooper]

The Cleveland Tweakers

[Guiness]

Indian isn't offensive any more than Caucasian is. Redskin is offensive because its a description with no positive interpretation (unless you find red skin attractive I guess). Chiefs and Braves could be construed as complimentary in most manners. I believe Blackhawks were an actual tribe (??). If I owned the Redskins I would change their name to the mighty whiteys and end the subject.

To echo pbmax, context is everything, and 'Indians' can and is used in a very derogatory manner, and used to generalize a large, diverse population.

I would think a large part of the problem is that the people who are being referred to have no association with or control over how something which identifies them is being used. I played many hockey games vs the Wiky Reds, which was a team based out of an Indian reserve. That's a team that should be carrying the name.

[mraynrand]

To echo pbmax, context is everything, and 'Indians' can and is used in a very derogatory manner, and used to generalize a large, diverse population.

except that there is virtually no one left who even comes close to representing the symbol to whom "Chief Wahoo" appears derogatory. It's no worse than say a symbol that depicts ancestral whites from northern UK as being excessively belligerent while under the influence of alcohol. Anyway, if you put aside "Chief Wahoo" there is nothing at all different between a team nicknamed the 'Indians' versus the 'Patriots', except in the minds of ----- -------- (redacted, FYI), who are concerned with political correctness. (yet ironically, the same people who hate 'Chief Wahoo' in turn mock people dressed up as actual Patriots from colonial times).

[pbmax]

Yet, the number of sports teams identified as the Fighting Irish (or perhaps you meant the Fighting Scots) is very limited. So limited in fact, that it is unusual for the President of the most well known team not to be Irish. http://president.nd.edu/about-the-office/history-of-the-office/

How many Idigenous People have served on the Board of Directors or held the President's office for the Indians or Braves?

This distance between the Indians and Chief Wahoo and actual Indigenous People is the problem.

[mraynrand]

Yet, the number of sports teams identified as the Fighting Irish (or perhaps you meant the Fighting Scots) is very limited. So limited in fact, that it is unusual for the President of the most well known team not to be Irish. http://president.nd.edu/about-the-office/history-of-the-office/

How many Idigenous People have served on the Board of Directors or held the President's office for the Indians or Braves?

This distance between the Indians and Chief Wahoo and actual Indigenous People is the problem.

The point isn't board positions, it's whether the symbol has any real significance to anything current at all. Most native american team symbols are completely benign or are flattering (i.e. an authentic indian headdress). Also, I can't think of a team symbol that was intended to highlight a negative aspect of that symbol, except perhaps a diminutive bellicose leprechaun. Most indian nicknames are highlighting their prowess in battle.

Personally, I like the Blue Jackets:


http://content.sportslogos.net/logos/1/9/full/43.gif


The Blue Jackets name was selected because the name pays homage to Ohio’s contributions to American history and the great pride and patriotism exhibited by its citizens, especially during the Civil War as both the state of Ohio and the city of Columbus were significantly influential on the Union Army. Ohio contributed more of its population to the Union Army than any other state, while many of the Blue Coats worn by the Union soldiers were manufactured in Columbus.

[bobblehead]

To echo pbmax, context is everything, and 'Indians' can and is used in a very derogatory manner, and used to generalize a large, diverse population.

I would think a large part of the problem is that the people who are being referred to have no association with or control over how something which identifies them is being used. I played many hockey games vs the Wiky Reds, which was a team based out of an Indian reserve. That's a team that should be carrying the name.

I guess, having grown up around Indians, I never actually considered the term negative. Nor did any Indian I ever met. Just for the record is "frenchman, Italian, chinese" also derogatory? Should Indian Motorcycles change their name? Should we no longer have Indian reservations?

If context is everything, then the context of naming your sports team after them is an honor. No one names teams after disgraceful things. The buffalo buffoons. The wisconsin wussies. The denver democrats (completely disgraceful).

[bobblehead]

I played many hockey games vs the Wiky Reds, which was a team based out of an Indian reserve. That's a team that should be carrying the name.

BUZZ...wrong answer. If its insulting, its insulting. I don't think any dolphins have ownership interest in the Miami team. Nor do the 49ers of old have any say in the SF team.

[Guiness]

except that there is virtually no one left who even comes close to representing the symbol to whom "Chief Wahoo" appears derogatory. It's no worse than say a symbol that depicts ancestral whites from northern UK as being excessively belligerent while under the influence of alcohol. Anyway, if you put aside "Chief Wahoo" there is nothing at all different between a team nicknamed the 'Indians' versus the 'Patriots', except in the minds of ----- -------- (redacted, FYI), who are concerned with political correctness. (yet ironically, the same people who hate 'Chief Wahoo' in turn mock people dressed up as actual Patriots from colonial times).

I read that several times, and really not sure what you are trying to say - particularly in the first sentence. I think you mean there are no actual warrior Indian Chiefs left?

[bobblehead]

except that there is virtually no one left who even comes close to representing the symbol to whom "Chief Wahoo" appears derogatory. It's no worse than say a symbol that depicts ancestral whites from northern UK as being excessively belligerent while under the influence of alcohol. Anyway, if you put aside "Chief Wahoo" there is nothing at all different between a team nicknamed the 'Indians' versus the 'Patriots', except in the minds of ----- -------- (redacted, FYI), who are concerned with political correctness. (yet ironically, the same people who hate 'Chief Wahoo' in turn mock people dressed up as actual Patriots from colonial times).

Cool, are we playing Hang Man?? I will take the following letters: S.T.U.P.I.D. L.I.B.E.R.A.L.S

Do I win or do I hang (Make sure the picture of the guy hanging is racially ambiguous so as not to offend).

[mraynrand]

With the new Injun gaming casino next to Jacob's Field (or whatever the hell corp they' re calling it now) in Cleveland, I suggest the Indians be renamed the Cleveland Flush.

[Guiness]

I guess, having grown up around Indians, I never actually considered the term negative. Nor did any Indian I ever met. Just for the record is "frenchman, Italian, chinese" also derogatory? Should Indian Motorcycles change their name? Should we no longer have Indian reservations?

I don't know, maybe it's regional? It might have something to do with the relative prosperity of the Indians you grew up around, were they from reserves or grow up in town?

My HS had students bused in from 3 separate reserves. Many were low/no income, living almost entirely off government aid. Alcoholism was rampant. More than half of the kids dropped out of school after grade 10 (that's when they stopped getting paid to attend). It was not uncommon when driving through the reserves in the winter to see them tearing siding off their houses - they'd cut it up and burn it for heat. They also poached that shit out of every animal that moved. Ya, indian was a derogatory term, usually proceeded by "f'ing".

I've traveled to India for work on several occasions, and it took me a while to get to the point where I could easily say "so you're indian, right?" the same way they'd ask me if I was Canadian.

[mraynrand]

My HS had students bused in from 3 separate reserves. Many were low/no income, living almost entirely off government aid. Alcoholism was rampant. More than half of the kids dropped out of school after grade 10 (that's when they stopped getting paid to attend). It was not uncommon when driving through the reserves in the winter to see them tearing siding off their houses - they'd cut it up and burn it for heat. They also poached that shit out of every animal that moved. Ya, indian was a derogatory term, usually proceeded by "f'ing".

That's a pretty horrible story, all the way around.

[pbmax]

There is nothing derogatory about the word Indian used to describe a person or group of people. But its use as a team nickname lends itself very easily to caricature. Some teams I previously mentioned go to great lengths to avoid being insulting with the mascot and assorted rituals.

Chief Wahoo and Chief Noc-A-Homa are caricatures. Same with the Tomahawk chop.

Such depictions are derogatory. Irish alum and students at Notre Dame might not mind the Leprechaun. And that is their call. And I think the participation of Irish Catholics at all levels of the school make that a much easier sell.

[mraynrand]

There is nothing derogatory about the word Indian used to describe a person or group of people. But its use as a team nickname lends itself very easily to caricature. Some teams I previously mentioned go to great lengths to avoid being insulting with the mascot and assorted rituals.

Chief Wahoo and Chief Noc-A-Homa are caricatures. Same with the Tomahawk chop.

Such depictions are derogatory. Irish alum and students at Notre Dame might not mind the Leprechaun. And that is their call. And I think the participation of Irish Catholics at all levels of the school make that a much easier sell.

Participation of Irish Catholics 'at all levels' doesn't make depicting Irish as pugnacious drunks less derogatory. Ultimately it's all about power and status - Seminoles and the Angry Lucky Charms guy stay as mascots because the tribe/Irish were in charge of the choice; others have gone because the non-minorities in power felt guilty/were brought to account for depicting minorities in an unfavorable manner, with 'unfavorable' having a very broad range.

[pbmax]

Participation of Irish Catholics 'at all levels' doesn't make depicting Irish as pugnacious drunks less derogatory. Ultimately it's all about power and status - Seminoles and the Angry Lucky Charms guy stay as mascots because the tribe/Irish were in charge of the choice; others have gone because the non-minorities in power felt guilty/were brought to account for depicting minorities in an unfavorable manner, with 'unfavorable' having a very broad range.

I think power and status play a large part in how someone would react to it. And success would also affect how people feel about their affiliation. Poll Cheesheads in 1986 versus 1996 and I bet you get different results.

The Fighting Irish and Cheeseheads have been accepted and re-appropriated by the communities. But that acceptance is conditional and subject to change. Native tribes have not come to feel the same way about Wahoo and the Redskins.

[mraynrand]

I think power and status play a large part in how someone would react to it. And success would also affect how people feel about their affiliation. Poll Cheesheads in 1986 versus 1996 and I bet you get different results.

The Fighting Irish and Cheeseheads have been accepted and re-appropriated by the communities. But that acceptance is conditional and subject to change. Native tribes have not come to feel the same way about Wahoo and the Redskins.

Wahoo and Redskins are generic (Wahoo is always depicted I would argue as a negative caricature; Redskins less so) while Seminoles is a specific tribe/nation and therefore is backed by that specific tribe, even moreso because the depictions are generally tasteful and positive.

[Just Jeff]

If they made helmuts big enough, "The largely nomadic yet indigenous historical inhabitants of the Patomac river basin and its surrounding former wetlands"

[pbmax]

If they made helmuts big enough, "The largely nomadic yet indigenous historical inhabitants of the Patomac river basin and its surrounding former wetlands"

I did love Gregg Easterbrook's Washington Potomac Drainage Basin Indigenous Peoples.

[MadtownPacker]

Cool, are we playing Hang Man?? I will take the following letters: S.T.U.P.I.D. L.I.B.E.R.A.L.S

Do I win or do I hang (Make sure the picture of the guy hanging is racially ambiguous so as not to offend).
The thread is flowing just fine so why you gotta start that shit (again)? Discuss the topic without going there or I will have to go somewhere else.

[Zool]

First, they couldn't have lived farther from India if they tried....aside from moving to the moon. Second they were slaughtered as a people by Europeans so they are unhappy about the ancestors of those people using their name for gain. The Cleveland Indians' logo should be Chief Sanjay and he should have on a headset mic. Calling them Indians is like calling people from Africa, Irish. It's stupid, shows the ignorance of the time, and perpetuates a pretty shitty time in our country's timeline.

[mraynrand]

Second they were slaughtered as a people by Europeans so they are unhappy about the ancestors of those people using their name for gain.

not to mention by each other. That's why you never see people from the Cherokee Nation printing
Chickasaw or Choctaw t-shirts, even though they could make a bundle.


Calling them Indians is like calling people from Africa, Irish. It's stupid, shows the ignorance of the time, and perpetuates a pretty shitty time in our country's timeline.

What's in a name? A Crow* by any other name would smell as sweat. (at least after chasing Buffalo off a cliff)





*(hey wait, they're not Crows! - how offensive! That reminds me of more shitty times in America. OK, Plains Indians - not wait, now they're 'indians' again and they are 'plain.' No, no, they are 'Special' - wait, special? As in special needs? AAAARrrrgggggh! )

[3irty1]

The term "Indians" is loooonnnggggg past being an exonym. Hell, can it really not be PC when its actually policy? Its still the "Bureau of Indian Affairs" and the "Bureau of Indian Education" right? Its a historical error but one that's way beyond repair.

The term "Redskins" holds more water. Equivalent to being called "Injun" probably. It'll eventually change to something but it'll be a shame when it does. Fans will lose some sense of identity, and their moral superiors will lose a prized stallion of a high horse.

[Just Jeff]

I the indians got it easy. They've been stuck with the wrong offensive name for centuries. Its the people from africa that have it tough. What if you were the Cleveland slaves back in the day. You'd have to have it changed to Nigger, then Negro, then Black, then African American, then People of Color and I'm sure that I'm forgetting many others. The people who are descendants fo africans would love to be indians.

[MadtownPacker]

The people who are descendants fo africans would love to be indians.Shit I would love stake in a casino too!!

[red]

i think we should stop using the term "indian" too. i mean, its just a reminder about how fucking stupid the guy who "found" this continent was

the asshole thought he was in india, he was only 10,000 miles off

[red]

Shit I would love stake in a casino too!!

usually you people have a pretty big chunk of "native" in you. you only need to be like a 1/4 or an 1/8 native to open a casino

i'm sure myan, or aztec or zapotec would still count as being indian

[mraynrand]

The term "Redskins" holds more water...

I'm not sure. I bet if you did one of those "man in the street" kind of questionnaires and specifically asked "What does the word 'Redskin' mean to you?' more people would answer 'the football team' than 'derogatory anti-native american slur.'

[mraynrand]

usually you people have a pretty big chunk of "native" in you. you only need to be like a 1/4 or an 1/8 native to open a casino

i'm sure myan, or aztec or zapotec would still count as being indian

Hey, if you're on the gaming commission, all you gotta have is one drop of indian blood to open up a new casino. There's money to be made in atoning for genocide. *Highlight for FYIers only: Just ask Elizabeth Warren

[red]

I'm not sure. I bet if you did one of those "man in the street" kind of questionnaires and specifically asked "What does the word 'Redskin' mean to you?' more people would answer 'the football team' than 'derogatory anti-native american slur.'

what if they kept the name and changed the logo. i agree that people probably associate the term redskin with indians because of the team logo. so change that

how bout take a someone with a bad sunburn?

THE WASHINGTON REDSKINS

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_1_rmCCo9zVI/TGyEurqM6rI/AAAAAAAABCs/Pte2N68jeuQ/s1600/sunburn.bmp

[Smeefers]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Redskins_name_controversy

History[edit]
The Washington Redskins were originally known as the Boston Braves. In 1933, co-owner George Preston Marshall changed the name to the Redskins, possibly in recognition of the then–head coach William Henry "Lone Star" Dietz, who claimed to be part Sioux. On July 6, 1933, the Boston Herald reported that "the change was made to avoid confusion with the Braves baseball team and the team that is to be coached by an Indian (Dietz)... with several Indian players."[8] Dietz's true heritage has been questioned by some scholars, citing a birth certificate and census records that his parents were white.[9] There is also the fact that, in 1933, the Boston Braves moved from Braves Field, which they shared with baseball's Boston Braves, to Fenway Park, already occupied by the Boston Red Sox. The Washington Redskins name and logo, which is a picture of a Native American, was officially registered in 1967.

Origin and meaning[edit]
Main article: Redskin (slang)
The origin of the word "redskin" is debated. Some scholars say that it was coined by early settlers in reference to the skin tone of Native Americans, while other say it referred to the color of the body paint used by certain tribes. Smithsonian Institution senior linguist and curator emeritus Ives Goddard asserts that the actual origin of the word is benign and reflects more positive aspects of early relations between Native Americans and whites.

[pbmax]

There is another story that the choice of nickname was because his wife had Native ancestors. Marshall told that version for a while, but no one seems to believe it anymore.

[Rastak]

Perhaps not as flammable as the fightin' n<censored>skins, but I think it has a history of derogatory usage beyond a simple comparable of color of skin. Yellow man, maybe, but I think closer to chink. The redskin usage is uncommon enough today that it doesn't seem at all to rise to the level of the n-word*, but I think its history is more bleak than recently memory has it. Having not done any reading on it beyond this topic, probably makes me unqualified to judge a comparison between the two.

If they approached the tribes, I wonder if any of them would take them up on some kind of offer. The Seminoles were mentioned earlier, but redskin is general enough I am not sure any tribe would want to touch it.


* At some point I will be adult enough to simply type n-word out correctly like I did chink, but something always holds me back. I think I fear Richard Pryor (or maybe Michael Richards) yelling at me from the stage.



This nails it in bold.


Richard was awesome, was it him who said in one of his jokes he and Michael Jackson were forming the ignited negro college fund?

[bobblehead]

The thread is flowing just fine so why you gotta start that shit (again)? Discuss the topic without going there or I will have to go somewhere else.

I actually thought my post was as relevant to this thread as any other. This is driven by the PC police. Not saying they are wrong in this case, just stating the obvious.

Of the white people telling Danial Snyder what to name his football team, how many are not....the term I used in hangman.

[bobblehead]

First, they couldn't have lived farther from India if they tried....aside from moving to the moon. Second they were slaughtered as a people by Europeans so they are unhappy about the ancestors of those people using their name for gain. The Cleveland Indians' logo should be Chief Sanjay and he should have on a headset mic. Calling them Indians is like calling people from Africa, Irish. It's stupid, shows the ignorance of the time, and perpetuates a pretty shitty time in our country's timeline.

Good God, where to start without pissing off Mad. You realize that the Native Americans LOOKED very much like Indians to the settlers. Just a smidgen more so than Africans look like Irish. I think that it shows ignorance in one sense, but not in the one you are implying.

Finally, if we want to play 6 degrees to what my ancestors did wrong, we can all be outraged by anything and everything. Now, I agree that Redskins is offensive, but Braves, Indians, Seminoles, blah blah. They are not.

[Teamcheez1]

Good God, where to start without pissing off Mad. You realize that the Native Americans LOOKED very much like Indians to the settlers. Just a smidgen more so than Africans look like Irish. I think that it shows ignorance in one sense, but not in the one you are implying.

Finally, if we want to play 6 degrees to what my ancestors did wrong, we can all be outraged by anything and everything. Now, I agree that Redskins is offensive, but Braves, Indians, Seminoles, blah blah. They are not.

You claim this is driven by the PC police, and then you succumb to the very argument you denigrate by claiming it is offensive. Yet, after reading the previous posts, I find that the term Redskins is more benign than I believed.

This is all about politics and the race hustlers driving the discussion. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Just Jeff]

No matter how many more casinos or bottles of booze you give them, there will always be a few rabble rousers that still want to make a name for themselves. Any capitalist injun, would be able to figure out a way to make money off of this rather than piss and moan between firewater benders.

[pbmax]

This is all about politics and the race hustlers driving the discussion. Nothing more, nothing less.

I disagree. Most of the people driving the discussion are not in politics. Recently that has begun to change. But the discussion about the team's name goes back years and wasn't jockeying for money or votes.

[Guiness]

No matter how many more casinos or bottles of booze you give them, there will always be a few rabble rousers that still want to make a name for themselves. Any capitalist injun, would be able to figure out a way to make money off of this rather than piss and moan between firewater benders.

Ignoring your inflamatory remarks, the bolded part is interesting. One of the first nations who claim some association with the name Redskins (the Navajo's?) could attempt to cash in - and given the zeal with which the NFL defends its intellectual property...:drma:

[pbmax]

Ignoring your inflamatory remarks, the bolded part is interesting. One of the first nations who claim some association with the name Redskins (the Navajo's?) could attempt to cash in - and given the zeal with which the NFL defends its intellectual property...:drma:

Interesting case as Snyder invited members of the Navajo code talkers to a game this year and received an endorsement from a group of them. The Nation affiliated with the Navajo though, disavowed the endorsement and called for the name to be changed.

[bobblehead]

You claim this is driven by the PC police, and then you succumb to the very argument you denigrate by claiming it is offensive. Yet, after reading the previous posts, I find that the term Redskins is more benign than I believed.

This is all about politics and the race hustlers driving the discussion. Nothing more, nothing less.

The fact that it is offensive, and the reasons behind people pushing for the change are 2 entirely separate issues. To admit it is in fact offensive in no way is succumbing to the argument of who is driving it. If I owned the team I would change the name....it would have nothing to do with the idiots trying to grab headlines by pushing the issue.

[mraynrand]

I would change the name if I owned the team as well. Based on the fact that it's just a football team and the purpose of the nickname was never really intended to be all that elevating to indians. Still, Indians shouldn't push so hard to change the name because every time Washington beats Dallas - well, that's historical payback.