Ray Rhodes, Antonio Freeman and Charles Jordan

[pbmax]

Today on the radio Mark Chmura and Jason Wilde were discussing a bunch of goofy topics with Steve True and somehow the amount of cash in your pocket became a subject.

That reminded Wilde of a Ray Rhodes story from 1999. Rhodes apparently liked to talk and tell stories. Wilde said that unlike the limited time with most coaches, he found himself "trapped" (his word) in Rhode's office as the HC told him about how much he didn't like Darren Sharper and that Rhodes' wife was stealing (Wilde's exact word) cash from his pockets. Wilde said he thought repeatedly that a coach of a team struggling to find .500 would have more pressing matters, but long conversations with Rhodes were apparently the norm. Wilde thought this convo about Sharper and cash stealing spouses lasted 2.5 hours.

Chmura said he remembered Rhodes (from his DCoord days?) would corner players at their lockers and before they knew it, they had been talking to Rhodes for so long that the entire building would be empty, not just of players, but of all employees.

Each said that after a day at the office talking people's ears off, Rhodes favorite pastime was to go to the casino and play $5 slots. Wilde said he heard from a bus driver that Rhodes was in the casino on game days. Whether that was from the night before or just early in the morning was unclear.

Chmura also remembered a rumor he heard from someone on the team that the accident Freeman had in 1999, where he crashed his car and tried to pass off Charles Jordan as the driver (who had been in another car). Chmura said he heard that Rhodes and another Asst. Coach had been at the same Supper Club with the players that evening. And his proximity to the partying players was one reason Rhodes found himself out of a job at the end of the year.

Wilde remembered the accident for another reason. The story he heard was that Free had an accident because he was driving while distracted. The distractor was a young lady riding in the car with Free. Apparently, they had grown very close in their time in the car. Outside of blackout drunk, that might make the most sense of a person who can hit a tree and disable their car while in a parking lot of a restaurant.

[Guiness]

Good story, and I sympathize with the people Rhodes cornered - I have had a similar situation with bosses/superiors at times. It's an uncomfortable situation when you feel like you can't get away despite other things you should be/would prefer to be doing. What if the boss is chatting you up when there's a deadline to meet, and 5 o'clock is looming??? Of course everyone wants to get on the boss' good side...for the players, if they listen to him, does it put them in good stead when the time comes to cut someone? For the writer, access to the coach is of course very important. Bad manners on his part - how do you extricate yourself from one of these situations without offending him?

[swede]

Sometimes there is no way to know if a person has the right stuff to coach outside of giving them a shot. Maybe Rhodes is the kind of man that needed a boss to provide the vision and the supervision. The Rhodes year was an odd step backwards, and that story is a very telling hint as to why that might have been.

The Peter Principle happens over and over. People rise successfully until they reach their level of incompetence.

[Patler]

Sometimes there is no way to know if a person has the right stuff to coach outside of giving them a shot. Maybe Rhodes is the kind of man that needed a boss to provide the vision and the supervision. The Rhodes year was an odd step backwards, and that story is a very telling hint as to why that might have been.

The Peter Principle happens over and over. People rise successfully until they reach their level of incompetence.

I couldn't understand the hire at all. Rhodes had four years in Philadelphia as head coach. He started his first year on a high, but the Eagles got progressively worse each year, and in his final season they were awful. There were many stores about him losing the team's respect, and that the locker room was a shambles. I thought Wolf could have done better than that.

[Carolina_Packer]

Yeah, that was a weird hire, and his next hire was also a bit from left field, as Sherman had no head coaching experience. Then came the really wacky, in that Wolf left after Sherman's first year and they gave Sherman the GM job. What that what? Honestly, I remember saying to fellow Packer fans when Wolf announced he was leaving, did he really have not clue when he was leaving when Holmgren,himself, left for Seattle? If they could have all gotten together and if Wolf had known, perhaps they could have worked it out so that Holmgren is promised to take over when Wolf leaves and Green Bay doesn't have the hiring hiccups like they did. Brett may have won another Super Bowl with Holmgren still around. Of course, Holmgren was proven to not be that great of a GM, so who really knows if he stocks the roster as well as Wolf did. I would have rather had Holmgren than Rhodes and Sherman. That said, I've never been big on the head coach being the GM as well. I think it's too much responsibility for one person to do well.

[George Cumby]

Sometimes there is no way to know if a person has the right stuff to coach outside of giving them a shot. Maybe Rhodes is the kind of man that needed a boss to provide the vision and the supervision. The Rhodes year was an odd step backwards, and that story is a very telling hint as to why that might have been.

The Peter Principle happens over and over. People rise successfully until they reach their level of incompetence.

Yeah, those stories just reek of a fellow who was in over his head and didn't want to face the task ahead, so you might as well procrastinate.

[Pugger]

Yeah, that was a weird hire, and his next hire was also a bit from left field, as Sherman had no head coaching experience. Then came the really wacky, in that Wolf left after Sherman's first year and they gave Sherman the GM job. What that what? Honestly, I remember saying to fellow Packer fans when Wolf announced he was leaving, did he really have not clue when he was leaving when Holmgren,himself, left for Seattle? If they could have all gotten together and if Wolf had known, perhaps they could have worked it out so that Holmgren is promised to take over when Wolf leaves and Green Bay doesn't have the hiring hiccups like they did. Brett may have won another Super Bowl with Holmgren still around. Of course, Holmgren was proven to not be that great of a GM, so who really knows if he stocks the roster as well as Wolf did. I would have rather had Holmgren than Rhodes and Sherman. That said, I've never been big on the head coach being the GM as well. I think it's too much responsibility for one person to do well.

I doubt Holmgren would have had a lot of success as our GM either. Mike has shown in Seattle and Cleveland that this isn't his forte and maybe Ron sensed that. But why in the world he (or was it Harlan?) would give Sherman of all guys the GM hat is a real head scratcher.

[MadScientist]

I doubt Holmgren would have had a lot of success as our GM either. Mike has shown in Seattle and Cleveland that this isn't his forte and maybe Ron sensed that. But why in the world he (or was it Harlan?) would give Sherman of all guys the GM hat is a real head scratcher.

The stories at the time were they didn't want to bring in a new GM who would want their guy as coach, when they liked what Sherman was doing. It made some sort of sense, but of course Sherman was not GM material and set things up for a collapse.

[swede]

The timeline had gotten fuzzy for me. I thought Rhodes followed Sherman as DC and then got the HC after. I did not recall that he had HC experience-and questionable HC experience at that-when he was hired. That kind of blows my earlier point. He had already risen to his level of incompetence and we hired him anyway.

[Pugger]

No, Rhodes was named the HC after Holmgren bolted for Seattle. From what I remember hearing Wolf was not pleased with the country club atmosphere under Rhodes so Ray was canned and Sherman was hired to be our next HC. Wolf stayed on one more season as GM. Sherman should never have been named GM. Whoever it was - Wolf or Harlan - it was a stupid move.

[Guiness]

I remember reading somewhere that the Packers were pretty mjch stuck with Rhodes because of the timing of Holmgren's leaving and some promises made to Rhodes to get him to come on as the DC.

They learned their lesson though, when it seemed like Jim Bates tried to pull the same power play a few years later.

[Cleft Crusty]

The stories at the time were they didn't want to bring in a new GM who would want their guy as coach, when they liked what Sherman was doing. It made some sort of sense, but of course Sherman was not GM material and set things up for a collapse.

That's why Sherman hired former Bear's VP director of player personnel, Mark Hatley in May of 2001 (following Wolf's final draft). As essentially a four year GM for the Bears, Hatley ran the operation for the Packers with Sherman making all the final calls. Sherman also re-hired McKenzie and Dorsey at the time, with expanded duties for each.

Most people hate Sherman's work as GM, but for GMs, there is really nothing but the bottom line, and season record-wise, Sherman wasn't bad; playoff were another story. Sherman had the 'win now' approach, probably due in large part to a sense that Favre would be retiring or diminishing at any moment. That led to successful moves like trading up for Javon Walker or trading a second round pick to Philly for Al Harris, and terrible moves like swapping around and wasting picks to get BJ Sander and Donnell Washington. Despite the horror of the 2004 draft, it still yielded Corey Williams and Scott Wells. Scott Wells continues to enjoy a favorable status, considered by many far more valuable than Jermichael Finley.

Hatley met his end in July of 2004. Many to this day believe that the thought of having to watch the 2004 draft class in training camp brought on his sudden cardiac arrest.

[TravisWilliams23]

How Wolf choose Rhodes over Andy Reid was a mystery to me. I believe Reid was the quarterbacks coach at that time. Philly obviously thought enough of Andy to give him a shot at HC and later the GM. So I have to put that fiasco at the feet of Wolf. I often wondered what Reid could have accomplished if he's gotten the gig in Green Bay.

[hoosier]

Wolf's top choices when Holmgren was getting ready to leave in 1999 were Rhodes and Dick Jauron, and he reportedly wasn't considering anyone on Holmie's staff (Reid, Sherm Lewis). In retrospect Wolf looks pretty bad on that one. I wonder if he just couldn't see what he had in front of him or if he was just opposed to hiring internally and wanted to bring in someone from the outside with a new perspective? My hunch it was the latter, and that he would have seen Reid as limited in his potential to grow as a head coach in Green Bay by virtue of his close ties to the outgoing administration. I don't blame Wolf for not wanting to hire one of Holmgren's coaches (internal hires often have a hard time establishing their independence) but it is hard to know what he saw in Rhodes that the rest of the world couldn't see.

[hoosier]

Most people hate Sherman's work as GM, but for GMs, there is really nothing but the bottom line, and season record-wise, Sherman wasn't bad....

Sherman's tenure as GM is a perfect example of why, like with the draft, true evaluation a GM's body of work can only happen after the fact. The owl of Minerva only takes flight at night.

[Pugger]

Sherman's drafts - outside of a couple of guys - and his FA acquisitions really put us in a bind and it took TT a couple of years to fix it.

[Joemailman]

When Rhodes left GB following the 1993 season to return to SF, he made some comments about the culture of GB not being comfortable for him. This ticked Holmgren off who had gone to some trouble to fight the stigma of GB being a backward place where black athletes and coaches were not comfortable. So there was no love lost between Rhodes and Holmgren at this point. I wonder if Wolf's decision to hire Rhodes without, I believe, interviewing anyone else was in part indicative of the animosity between Wolf and Holmgren.

[Patler]

When Rhodes left GB following the 1993 season to return to SF, he made some comments about the culture of GB not being comfortable for him. This ticked Holmgren off who had gone to some trouble to fight the stigma of GB being a backward place where black athletes and coaches were not comfortable. So there was no love lost between Rhodes and Holmgren at this point. I wonder if Wolf's decision to hire Rhodes without, I believe, interviewing anyone else was in part indicative of the animosity between Wolf and Holmgren.

Ya. it makes you wonder, doesn't it? When Wolf hired Rhodes, I didn't like it for a couple reasons. First, I wasn't at all impressed with Rhodes years in Philly apart from the first. Second, I didn't expect him to stay very long in view of his criticism of Green Bay when he left. If he hated it so much that he ran back to SF after just two years in GB, why was he coming back again? Probably because it was his only opportunity to try to resurrect his career as a head coach after sinking the ship in Philly.

[Patler]

Wolf's top choices when Holmgren was getting ready to leave in 1999 were Rhodes and Dick Jauron, and he reportedly wasn't considering anyone on Holmie's staff (Reid, Sherm Lewis). In retrospect Wolf looks pretty bad on that one. I wonder if he just couldn't see what he had in front of him or if he was just opposed to hiring internally and wanted to bring in someone from the outside with a new perspective? My hunch it was the latter, and that he would have seen Reid as limited in his potential to grow as a head coach in Green Bay by virtue of his close ties to the outgoing administration. I don't blame Wolf for not wanting to hire one of Holmgren's coaches (internal hires often have a hard time establishing their independence) but it is hard to know what he saw in Rhodes that the rest of the world couldn't see.

You are probably right.

The public excuse Wolf has given several times is that he felt Reid needed a couple more years experience before being suitable for a HC position. Made some sense in comparison to the experience of Rhodes, but a year later Wolf hired Sherman, who was a few years older, but his NFL experience was limited to two years as TE coach in GB and one year as OC in Seattle. Other than that, he was an OL coach in college. Reid had been in GB for seven years when Rhodes was hired, with increasing responsibilities, and had been Assistant HC under Holmgren for two years, often considered a stepping stone to a HC spot. Reid seemed much more prepared for the job in 1999 than Sherman was in 2000.

[Cleft Crusty]

Sherman's tenure as GM is a perfect example of why, like with the draft, true evaluation a GM's body of work can only happen after the fact. The owl of Minerva only takes flight at night.


I prefer the fighting Owls of Mount Healthy. Great stadium.

[woodbuck27]

I enjoyed reading this thread.

Hindsight is .................... 20-20.