Who's Gonna Poop the Bed? [Archive]

HarveyWallbangers

07-17-2013, 11:15 PM

That's funny. I've read some people predicting Franklin will challenge Lacy for the starting RB job. I just don't see it. I think he looks relatively pedestrian. A Brandon Jackson-type.

I'm not so sure. Most in the thread on the corners say Tramon will start. I say he's not starting by the end of the year and won't be with the team in 2014.

How are these picks any worse than Mike Daniels, D.J. Williams, Mike Neal, and Andrew Quarless?

Fritz

07-18-2013, 06:59 AM

Mike Neal is probably the most obvious answer - he gets hurt again, and it's about over with him, unless it's a very short term injury.

DJ Williams has shown some real flashes but does not seem to be developing.

I think that big, speedy receiver they drafted in the seventh round - not Dorsey, the other - will prove to be camp hype and little else. I hope I'm wrong, but so often we think receivers will step right in and kick ass. Other than Cobb, that hasn't happened much, and even he took some time.

On offense, Starks is probably the most obvious answer. One more injury and poof, he's gone.

But what about Bulaga pooping the left side of the bed?

pbmax

07-18-2013, 07:11 AM

I understand Neal, but I discount him as a choice here because the most frequent post on this board, should he find himself injured again, will not be "I am bitterly disappointed" but instead will be "I knew that would happen!".

I understand Harv on Franklin because of what I see on his highlight videos. He is one of those backs who is always running into a four or five man front from a passing formation and doesn't come close to a LB in tight quarters until his is five or ten yards past the LOS. Every run looks like its going to the house, though he does not always get there (lack of top end speed?).

I think Guin is onto something because the passing game for WR will change without Jennings and someone might see either less success as a result.

Fritz

07-18-2013, 07:34 AM

I thought about Jones, too, but then I figured that his going into a contract year will motivate him.

I, too, don't quite get the hype about Franklin. He does seem to me to be kinda like Brandon Jackson. A good complement, like Tony Fisher, but no big thing.

I think Alex Green has the tools to be that guy. Whether he will, I dunno.

Zool

07-18-2013, 08:42 AM

I hope Franklin takes a bunch of passing downs away from Green or Harris. That means he's a good blocker. The Brandon Jackson comparison might be fair though. Guy was a solid pass pro and fantastic on screens. I'll take that from this 4th rounder. Ideally he'll hit a couple draws big in there as well.

Cheesehead Craig

07-18-2013, 08:49 AM

Pickett. Hits the wall and gets hurt.

packer4life

07-18-2013, 09:08 AM

pbmax

07-18-2013, 09:19 AM

Pickett. Hits the wall and gets hurt.

Hate to say it but...this.

Pickett just can't continue to hold up. Raji, Jones, and Neal/Wilson are on their own once Pickett shows his age. This whole Neal at OLB trial will end real quick once the injuries start.

I still think Jones takes some of Pick's snaps, but that is just speculation on my part. He's a rookie and even if he is eventually capable, he might not be ready for that role immediately.

Perhaps even bigger question is who plays inside when Neal is at OLB? Neal is there to be big and provide pass rush. Its got to be a run stop scheme, but making an OLB bigger seems an odd way to play base or a heavy package (4-4). So my guess is he is at OLB in some nickel with Matthews or Perry roaming. So who plays inside then?

packer4life

07-18-2013, 09:28 AM

I still think Jones takes some of Pick's snaps, but that is just speculation on my part. He's a rookie and even if he is eventually capable, he might not be ready for that role immediately.

Perhaps even bigger question is who plays inside when Neal is at OLB? Neal is there to be big and provide pass rush. Its got to be a run stop scheme, but making an OLB bigger seems an odd way to play base or a heavy package (4-4). So my guess is he is at OLB in some nickel with Matthews or Perry roaming. So who plays inside then?

It's the new Capers "/"...the rover is dead, Neal is the new Capers toy. I think it will be a run stuff package with Matthews and Neal on the ends with Raji and Pickett inside. Maybe this puts Matthews in a position to roam and find his preferential gap without giving up the run. It would essentially be a 4-2-5 Nickel-hybrid but not as soft up front, which was a big problem last year.

This is obviously just speculative, I'm probably way off.

run pMc

07-18-2013, 10:26 AM

Neal at OLB is in part because they say he's athletic, because the OLB's outside of Matthews are unproven, and because Neal is a R2 pick they want to get something out of. Capers is enough of a mad scientist, where with a full offseason, he can draw up some package(s) to use Neal as a 'slash'.

As for pooping the bed, he and Sherrod are obvious choices because of injuries. Alex Green might be another, although he hasn't wowed much yet. Finley could get the dropsies again....so many possibilities.

Are we looking for just plain flops, or regressions to the mean?

pbmax

07-18-2013, 10:30 AM

Neal at OLB over Perry in a run stuff situation doesn't add a lot. If its Neal and Perry at OLB plus Matthews everywhere, then I think you have something.

But Neal at OLB as protection for Perry might be the actual plan. Seems a big stretch though for him to convert full time.

My money is on spot duty for Neal at OLB.

packer4life

07-18-2013, 10:35 AM

Zool

07-18-2013, 10:38 AM

pbmax

07-18-2013, 10:42 AM

How about the dreaded 2-5 D with Raji and Jones, Neal and Perry on the outside. Wouldn't that basically a 4-3 depending on where you gap Neal and Perry with Matthews moving around depending on the pre-snap read?

That is what I am thinking, with Matthews roaming all over the D line threatening an overload blitz. Sort of a big nickel deal, but with emphasis on a possible run. Similar to Chillar's big nickel.

packer4life

07-18-2013, 12:18 PM

As long as he avoids the psycho D, I'm good with it.

mraynrand

07-18-2013, 01:41 PM

That is what I am thinking, with Matthews roaming all over the D line threatening an overload blitz. Sort of a big nickel deal, but with emphasis on a possible run. Similar to Chillar's big nickel.

Hawk is in there, but who is the fifth LB in that scheme?

Upnorth

07-18-2013, 02:06 PM

Hawk is in there, but who is the fifth LB in that scheme?

I would have said bishop, but now I say Jones

mraynrand

07-18-2013, 04:20 PM

I would have said bishop, but now I say Jones

Of course: the 'cover' LB. It's been a long off season, I'd already forgotten about Bradley Jones.

MadtownPacker

07-18-2013, 04:41 PM

In betting it all on the fans shitting the bed after the first loss, regardless of when it is.

Zool

07-18-2013, 04:45 PM

In betting it all on the fans shitting the bed after the first loss, regardless if when it is.

Wait for the 2 game losing streak. Every year it's fire and brimstone after that happens.

ThunderDan

07-18-2013, 04:57 PM

Wait for the 2 game losing streak. Every year it's fire and brimstone after that happens.

Wait until we win 6 in a row and fans will say it is all luck.

packer4life

07-18-2013, 06:30 PM

Wait till we make it deep in the playoffs despite our defensive coordinator.

Upnorth

07-18-2013, 07:57 PM

Wait till 579 some team 579 has a massive 579 running game against 579 us.

Joemailman

07-18-2013, 08:13 PM

Wait till 579 some team 579 has a massive 579 running game against 579 us.

http://static.feber.se/article_images/26/29/78/262978_450.jpeg

Iron Mike

07-18-2013, 10:01 PM

Najeh Davenport.

denverYooper

07-18-2013, 11:12 PM

Wait till 579 some team 579 has a massive 579 running game against 579 us.

bmcginn@journalsentinel.com

Joemailman

07-19-2013, 06:13 AM

Wait until we win 6 in a row and fans will say it is all luck.

Actually some will just take a hiatus from this forum. Until the Packers lose a game. Then they'll be back.

Smeefers

07-19-2013, 09:52 AM

Hmm, On the offense I wouldn't be surprised if the right side of our line turns to junk. I don't know if it'll be Newhouse or someone else, but that's a strong possibility. I also still don't really know who our center is going to be. EDS? Is that really where we're headed? Yeah, the right side of the line is definitely the weakest of the offense and that stinks. Better than the left side though, I guess.

On defense, I think Perry has the most chance of shittin the bed. I expect him to play well, but I have nothing to base those expectations on. Hell, last year he rotated with Walden. That's never a good sign. That would be like Hayward rotating with Bush.

Guiness

07-19-2013, 10:06 AM

The right side of the line is somewhat up in the air...I think Lang will be just fine, it's the RT that worries me. Barclay might be the best bet out there, is seem to me like Newhouse isn't scrappy enough to play the right side, and who knows what they'll get out of Sherrod. I really don't see the Pack running that way at all, I think all they're going to ask that side of the line to do is hold position. It will be interesting.

Upnorth

07-19-2013, 12:01 PM

Eric Winston?

Guiness

07-19-2013, 12:26 PM

Eric Winston?

Ya, we talked about him in that other thread. Odd situation, as I pointed out he graded out as a top RT last year, no injuries and on the street this year. RT is the new OG - no respect.

Upnorth

07-19-2013, 05:55 PM

Ya, we talked about him in that other thread. Odd situation, as I pointed out he graded out as a top RT last year, no injuries and on the street this year. RT is the new OG - no respect.

He is one of the best zbs rt's in the game and could be had cheap. I don't usually advocate fa's but he's a no brainer

Bretsky

07-19-2013, 07:04 PM

Sally...aka...Justine Harell Sherrod.....wait.......does he even count anymore ?

If not, Just a guy Jones and Nick Perry

pbmax

07-20-2013, 09:39 AM

Sally...aka...Justine Harell Sherrod.....wait.......does he even count anymore ?

If not, Just a guy Jones and Nick Perry

Starting Right Tackle.

Patler

07-20-2013, 10:20 AM

Which Packer players - one on offense, one on defense - will flop, all bust, will doody in the bed, wet himself?

This could include the injury-prone getting injured - again.

Have at it.

I won't limit myself to just one each way. These guys will not make the team:

Offense - Sherrod, Kuhn, Starks, DJ Williams, Ryan Taylor
Defense - Daniels, Francois, Lattimore, T. Williams.

Maxie the Taxi

07-20-2013, 11:01 AM

packer4life

07-20-2013, 12:16 PM

I won't limit myself to just one each way. These guys will not make the team:

Offense - Sherrod, Kuhn, Starks, DJ Williams, Ryan Taylor
Defense - Daniels, Francois, Lattimore, T. Williams.

Bold!

There is no way he cuts Williams and Taylor. One hasn't gotten his opportunity yet (injured when featured in the game plan against Houston) and the other is a special teams regular. TT loves his TEs, and these two were just recently drafted and are not going anywhere. You must be really high on Bostick...

Daniels stays. He showed productivity last year and will only improve. Too early to pull the plug on him. I do think Lattimore/Kuhn/Starks go.

Patler

07-20-2013, 12:51 PM

Bold!

There is no way he cuts Williams and Taylor. One hasn't gotten his opportunity yet (injured when featured in the game plan against Houston) and the other is a special teams regular. TT loves his TEs, and these two were just recently drafted and are not going anywhere. You must be really high on Bostick...

Daniels stays. He showed productivity last year and will only improve. Too early to pull the plug on him. I do think Lattimore/Kuhn/Starks go.

I think they only keep four TEs this year, Finley, Quarless, Mulligan and someone new (maybe Bostick). Mulligan makes it because of MM's "commitment" to better blocking and an improved run game. Mulligan can replace Taylor on STs. Williams has been on the field some, just never seems to show up after the preseason games are done. Lower round draft picks don't always get their third and fourth years to prove their worth.

Daniels size catches up to him this year. Weren't we told there is an unwritten edict to get bigger and tougher? Daniels goes the way of DJ Smith. Good guy, competitor, just too small and there will be a lot of DL competition this year. His only hope is if Neal goes down to injury again, Jolly isn't even a glimmer of his former self and guys like Boyd show nothing.

Guiness

07-20-2013, 03:06 PM

Bold list, and it's hard to disagree with much. If Sherrod is not healthy, I think he gets an injury settlement. If he can go though, he's a first round pick that hasn't had much opportunity on the field.

Kuhn is on the bubble. A few teams aren't carrying an FB this year, and NE has 6 TEs who are likely to make the team! The others you mention - fringe players who are on the bubble every year, they make it in TC or they don't.

Joemailman

07-20-2013, 06:31 PM

I won't limit myself to just one each way. These guys will not make the team:

Offense - Sherrod, Kuhn, Starks, DJ Williams, Ryan Taylor
Defense - Daniels, Francois, Lattimore, T. Williams.

Wow. That would be a huge helping of humble pie for Thompson to swallow in one year.

Why? Change is constant. Of all those guys, only Sherrod was a high pick.

I think Patler is wrong about Sherrod. I think he has a good shot at being the starting RT.

Guiness

07-20-2013, 07:12 PM

Why? Change is constant. Of all those guys, only Sherrod was a high pick.

I think Patler is wrong about Sherrod. I think he has a good shot at being the starting RT.

The RT/LT situation is interesting because Sherrod was put in at LT with Bulaga at RT, now we're talking about Bulaga at LT and Sherrod on the right side. Is the move of Bulaga over written in stone? Does Sherrod get a sniff over there?

Joemailman

07-20-2013, 07:38 PM

The RT/LT situation is interesting because Sherrod was put in at LT with Bulaga at RT, now we're talking about Bulaga at LT and Sherrod on the right side. Is the move of Bulaga over written in stone? Does Sherrod get a sniff over there?

I think it's pretty much written in stone. I think MM learned a lesson last year. Your best pass-pro OT has to be on the left side. It would be too much of a gamble to put Sherrod there, both because of his leg, and because in terms of playing experience, he's practically a rookie. If, over time, Sherrod proves to better than Bulaga, perhaps they would switch, but it won't happen this year.

Upnorth

07-20-2013, 07:40 PM

Was there any mention of Sherrod during ota's? How is his leg, it should be healthy by now one would think.

Joemailman

07-20-2013, 07:45 PM

Was there any mention of Sherrod during ota's? How is his leg, it should be healthy by now one would think.

He had surgery in January. MM has said the surgery was a huge help. However guys who have off-season surgeries seldom if ever take part in OTA's.

Patler

07-20-2013, 10:47 PM

Not sure why, but I just have a feeling Sherrod's career is done, at least in GB.

Guiness

07-20-2013, 11:25 PM

Not sure why, but I just have a feeling Sherrod's career is done, at least in GB.

He's in a bad spot to be sure. The biggest knock against him the way I see it is that he's essentially a rookie...with just a 2 year contract. The team will take a shorter term view of him, if he shows some promise it might not be enough.

Patler

07-20-2013, 11:48 PM

He's in a bad spot to be sure. The biggest knock against him the way I see it is that he's essentially a rookie...with just a 2 year contract. The team will take a shorter term view of him, if he shows some promise it might not be enough.

They have a numbers problem, too. Bulaga, Bakhtiari, Newhouse and Barclay might take all the spots available for tackles. Then there is Datko, too. There is a lot of competition for what is likely to be no more than 4 roster spots for tackles.

Bretsky

07-21-2013, 01:08 AM

Not sure why, but I just have a feeling Sherrod's career is done, at least in GB.

You and I are a couple of the few who have tossed out the Homer Pie on Sherrod
He's never been good; even when healthy. Adios Sherry

Patler

07-21-2013, 07:36 AM

You and I are a couple of the few who have tossed out the Homer Pie on Sherrod
He's never been good; even when healthy. Adios Sherry

I thought Newhouse was clearly the better player at the time Sherrod was injured, which was disappointing because Sherrod was a first round draft pick who I hoped would come in ready to contribute, as Bulaga had. No reason to expect Sherrod to be any better now, since he has not been able to practice or do much. I am hopeful that Bakhtiari or Datko perform better than Sherrod did. I think Barclay already has, but might not stay at tackle. Sherrod could be the #5 or #6 tackle.

Pugger

07-21-2013, 07:46 AM

Patler

07-21-2013, 08:07 AM

Hmmm, I thought I heard Sherrod was starting to come around right before he broke his leg. You have to recall he didn't have any offseason workouts with the team his rookie year because of the lockout. Until we find out he is still hobbling in this year's TC I'm not going to write him off just yet.

Ya, some say he was coming around. I didn't see it, but I don't claim to know much about O-line play. As an observer, I didn't see it.

Realistically, the rookies don't get all that much off season work before their first season anyway. The draft is held the end of April. The rookies come to a few days of rookie camp, but if not signed don't do much after that. The team is pretty well gone for the last 3 weeks before TC starts.

The best off season work used to happen in March and April, and rookies never have been a part of it. That is why the most significant off season for a player is after his rookie season.

pbmax

07-21-2013, 08:14 AM

Sherrod's risk this season is health and money. He needs reps and practice time. If he is healthy, he stays on the roster. If he's not, things get interesting.

Spotrac.com has him down for a $2.6 million dollar cap hit if he is cut this year. It has numbers for 2013 and 2014 contract years that leave the impression that cutting him prior to the regular season might be spread out over the two years, causing a 500K net hit this year and basically a wash next. However, he is not a free agent until 2016 and Spotrac has no contract numbers for 2015.

Unless 2015 has something very strange, he could be jettisoned as long as they can spread the hit out over two years.

But worse for him is that second surgery, since that time, there has been no timetable and McCarthy hasn't even hinted when he might see him, much less what might be expected from him. It took two full years for Flanagan to recover from his fracture and start to play well again. Sherrod hits that mark about Week 10 this year.

As for Newhouse over Sherrod, availability gives the battle it to Newhouse, obviously. But do not forget that in the fateful KC game, Newhouse lost control of his guy wide once again (and failed to followup again). The KC rusher crashed into RT Sherrod who was doing a fine job blocking his man and giving Rodgers a pocket.

On the field its no contest who is better. But he has not been on the field and he needs practice reps.

Patler

07-21-2013, 08:45 AM

On the field its no contest who is better. But he has not been on the field and he needs practice reps.

That is where you and I disagree, at least as to how they played in 2011. Yes, on the fateful play, Sherrod was doing OK and Newhouse wasn't, but overall I thought Sherrod was awful from TC on, including the brief times he was forced into action during the season. I will agree that Sherrod should be the better player, but clearly was not during 2011. If he was, he would have been playing ahead of Newhouse, because the opportunity was there.

I agree that Sherrod needs practice time, reps and game exposure. I'm just not sure the Packers can give it to him, because of other tackles with potential, most of whom are cheaper:

Bakhtiari - his draft position virtually guarantees him a spot.
Newhouse - may still be the only viable option to backup "china doll" Bulaga at LT.
Datko - could be the surprise of the group, could eliminate the need for Newhouse as backup LT.
Barclay - showed enough to warrant a serious look at tackle or guard.

Going into their respective final seasons in college, Datko may have been a more highly considered prospect than Sherrod had been. His injury wiped that out, but is apparently finally fixed. One of the writers mentioned that Datko was very noticeably bigger and stronger in his upper body compared to last year, which seems to indicate the shoulder is not restricting his workouts.

Sherrod's best scenario to hang around probably requires that Datko either supplants Newhouse as the Backup LT, or fails miserably and is released. Further, he needs Bakhtiari to win the starting job at RT, since he will be on the roster regardless. He probably needs Barclay to move inside, or to play like an undrafted FA and be released. This would leave Bulaga and Bakhtiari as starters, one of Newhouse and Datko as the backup tackle on either side and the other one off the roster, Barclay out of the picture at tackle and SHerrod as the #4 tackle.

Of course, he could make it easier on himself and outplay all of them for the starting RT spot, or as the primary backup, but I don't see that happening, and then it becomes a numbers problem for him.

Not totally out of the picture that he starts out on PUP list again.

Guiness

07-21-2013, 11:52 AM

Ok, I have no idea how this would work in such an odd situation, but is Sherrod eligible for the practice squad????

Pretty close to unprecedented to put a 1st rounder on the PS, and I assume some other team would pick him up just because it could be a great value.

Other than that, I agree that it's a vicious numbers game. Can the dude play center? That seems to be the only OL position that shows some need.

Maxie the Taxi

07-21-2013, 12:19 PM

Patler, which guy, out of all the candidates you mention, is the better run blocker?

Patler

07-21-2013, 12:37 PM

Patler, which guy, out of all the candidates you mention, is the better run blocker?

Of Newhouse, Barclay, Datko, Bakhtiari and Sherrod? Hard to say, because we have seen nothing of Bakhtiari and Datko when it counts, and not that much from Sherrod. Between Barclay and Newhouse? From what people who know a lot more about it than I do have to say, it might be Barclay.

In reality, it doesn't matter that much, because the best at pass pro will get the jobs. Run blocking will count only if it is close in pass pro.

Maxie the Taxi

07-21-2013, 12:48 PM

Thanks. I was thinking that this year, due to the addition of the Golddust Twins II, the running game might throw a whole new complexion on the offense. They say a good pass rush makes the secondary better. I'm thinking a good running game might take some pressure off Arod. Of course the coach has to really commit to it.

pbmax

07-21-2013, 01:03 PM

Commitment to a running game wasn't a problem last year, it was the production they got out of it that was a problem. I think a better argument is that they stuck with running too much in 2012 but felt they had no alternative to keep Rodgers upright with problems in pass pro.

Datko could be a guy that replaces Sherrod but his injury comes with as many questions as Sherrod's double fracture. The difference at this point is that Datko got serious reps last year while Sherrod did not. Due to the CBA negotiations, Sherrod has not had that long a period of activity in the pros yet, even including a year he made it to Week 10 of the regular season. In season practice is not as good as training camp reps, and Datko nearly caught Sherrod last year (I think Datko missed a little time at the beginning of camp).

Newhouse was a better run blocker than Night of the Living Dead Clifton. But that isn't saying much. Barclay is a better run blocker than Newhouse, but he was on the right side and that might work to Newhouse's advantage as well now that he has moved. Sherrod was not a drive blocker in college but people had trouble disengaging with him, so he might be OK. Have not seen enough of Datko or Bakhtiari to know.

College film is tough for tackles in the Packers system because what you would really like to do is cut the backside end on zone runs, but the Packers abandoned that with Clifton and Tauscher unable to do it. Newhouse wasn't asked to do it that I saw. College teams run it, but the Packer draft picks are pass pro first guys. I think that goes for Datko too, but I don't recall his profile on run blocking.

Guiness

07-21-2013, 02:00 PM

As for Newhouse over Sherrod, availability gives the battle it to Newhouse, obviously. But do not forget that in the fateful KC game, Newhouse lost control of his guy wide once again (and failed to followup again). The KC rusher crashed into RT Sherrod who was doing a fine job blocking his man and giving Rodgers a pocket.

1 play, don't give it too much weight of course. This one time, at football camp, I made the most amazing over the shoulder catch!
(I actually did, and the guys watching cheered. It never happened again :) )

HarveyWallbangers

07-21-2013, 06:34 PM

I remember Sherrod being better than Patler remembers. He didn't dominant and struggled at times, but I don't remember him being awful from TC on. Of course, my memory is getting shorter in my old age. Newhouse has gone through similar stretches in his career - although he's mostly been serviceable. You definitely want better than him, but he hasn't been Allen Barbre awful.

Bretsky

07-21-2013, 07:01 PM

Joemailman

07-21-2013, 08:50 PM

pbmax

07-21-2013, 11:22 PM

They tried to let Sherrod compete for the starting LG position and he was terrible. He also didn't play well in the preseason at LT. He was forced into the lineup at Atlanta at RT (not his natural position), and after struggling on his first series, I remember the coaches saying they thought he played pretty well. He seemed to be playing well at Kansas City when before he got hurt. I see him as a guy who got off to a rough start, but recovered. Hopefully he'll stay healthy enough that we'll find out which view of him is correct.

I thought it was Washington for his first, mid-season time at RT?

As for Guin's point, it was absolutely only one play. But it perfectly illustrates what you could get out of each. Newhouse at times can barely hang on and he doesn't have a tenacious or hang on for dear life streak. Sherrod more easily dominates (in pass pro anyway). I love what Newhouse has done what he has. I would also love for his limited self to be the best backup tackle in the League.

RashanGary

07-22-2013, 10:17 AM

IMO he was nothing short of dreadful in training camp before he got hurt. We all pray our OL could be a bit ready and show something like Bulaga...Tauscher....when they are drafted high. ..but he was clearly way behind the eight ball from the start. He showed a couple flashes in his final game before getting Harrelled and some dwell on those flashes as him turning things around IMO.
I stand with Patler on this one.

I'm with you guys too. He was beaten out by Newhouse. That's just a fact. Sherrod hasn't been able to do anything since he was beaten out by Newhouse 2 years ago. Newhouse is 2 years better. Sherrod is the same, except now he's coming off an injury. I'd be SHOCKED if Sherrod won a job this year. Absolutely shocked. And I'm starting to think he is on the bubble to make this team. Any OL who's worse than Newhouse 2 seasons ago probably isn't good enough to make this team. We're getting better and deeper. It's going to be tough for him.

Patler

07-22-2013, 11:18 AM

I'm with you guys too. He was beaten out by Newhouse. That's just a fact. Sherrod hasn't been able to do anything since he was beaten out by Newhouse 2 years ago. Newhouse is 2 years better. Sherrod is the same, except now he's coming off an injury. I'd be SHOCKED if Sherrod won a job this year. Absolutely shocked. And I'm starting to think he is on the bubble to make this team. Any OL who's worse than Newhouse 2 seasons ago probably isn't good enough to make this team. We're getting better and deeper. It's going to be tough for him.

As even more evidence of that, I was reminded over the weekend toward the end of the year, just a bit before he broke his leg, Sherrod and Newhouse alternated at LT during one game. The next week they went back to Newhouse starting and playing full time. That was Sherrod's chance, because Newhouse was just sort of hanging on. Apparently, the coaches still thought Newhouse was the better option then.

Maxie the Taxi

07-22-2013, 11:45 AM

Here's the writeup on Sherrod from the NFL Draft Tracker 2011:

Sherrod currently looks more like a backup but could be a future starting tackle if he can add quite a bit of bulk and strength. A nice blend of length and good feet, he can slide laterally with pass rushers and push them by the launch point but struggles to anchor against the bull rush. Could benefit from improving awareness against pressure looks. Uses positioning and instincts as a run blocker to create running lanes but isn't an effective drive blocker and won't push defenders backwards. Has a solid makeup but doesn't possess a non-stop motor or great aggressiveness. Early Day 3 grade.

I'm thinking that TT messed up drafting him in the 1st round.

Guiness

07-22-2013, 11:50 AM

JH and pbmax are both right, and that's why this will come down to a camp battle. Bulaga is written in stone, Bakhtiari is a given unless he rots. Sherrod/Newhouse/Datko/Barclay, which of these (or which two) doesn't belong?

For interest's sake, their draft positions, in that order, are 1st/5th/7th/UD. I don't know if Sherrod's draft status will grant him a reprieve anymore, and you have to wonder if the team will show any more patience if he's not 100% ready to go for TC.

Someone remind me who played RT in KC after Sherrod went down? Looking at the game book http://www.nfl.com/liveupdate/gamecenter/55378/KC_Gamebook.pdf the only other OL substitution is EDS. Did he plat RT, or did he come in at RG and Sitton slid outside?

Joemailman

07-22-2013, 12:01 PM

Someone remind me who played RT in KC after Sherrod went down? Looking at the game book http://www.nfl.com/liveupdate/gamecenter/55378/KC_Gamebook.pdf the only other OL substitution is EDS. Did he plat RT, or did he come in at RG and Sitton slid outside?

I'm pretty sure Lang moved to RT and EDS came in at LG.

pbmax

07-22-2013, 12:48 PM

As even more evidence of that, I was reminded over the weekend toward the end of the year, just a bit before he broke his leg, Sherrod and Newhouse alternated at LT during one game. The next week they went back to Newhouse starting and playing full time. That was Sherrod's chance, because Newhouse was just sort of hanging on. Apparently, the coaches still thought Newhouse was the better option then.

You sure that was regular season? Because the alternating regular season combo I remember was Clifton and Newhouse. Prior to his injury, Sherrod was the RT after Bulaga went down. They would have had to be alternating prior to the Washington (EDIT: should read KC) game.

EDIT: My memory is terrible. Atlanta was a Week 5 opponent and that is the game someone mentioned as Sherrod's first action at RT. He was back at RT for KC in Week 15.

OK, yes Atlanta game was first appearance at RT. M3 says he plays well in 2nd half after a poor start in first series. http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:KFE2GDbOZuYJ:www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/this-time-packers-have-options-to-replace-clifton-131494978.html+&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

It was a tossup on the 14th of October, according to McGinn about whether Bulaga would be back at RT versus the Rams, but given that Sherrod is recorded as having no starts, I surmise that Bulaga came back the week after Clifton was lost in the Atlanta game.

pbmax

07-22-2013, 01:32 PM

Here's the writeup on Sherrod from the NFL Draft Tracker 2011:

I'm thinking that TT messed up drafting him in the 1st round.

An early Day 3 grade would have been the 4th round in 2011? I remember questions about right versus left, elite versus adequate starter and questions about his strength. I don't recall anyone at the time that thought he was a fourth (or even third) round talent.

Maxie the Taxi

07-22-2013, 03:22 PM

Here's the link...

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2011/profiles/derek-sherrod?id=2495230

Upnorth

07-22-2013, 03:27 PM

Speaking of right tackle know who I bet would win? Eric Winston
He is a relatively cheap acquisition prior to TC and could anchor the right for four years easy

pbmax

07-22-2013, 04:23 PM

Here's the link...

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2011/profiles/derek-sherrod?id=2495230

Well, that draft grader could turn out to have been correct. However, his resume (number of starts, years started, honors and competition in the SEC) and frankly his size seem almost impossible to imagine him falling into the fourth round. But I have been ultra wrong about the draft before.

As it was, I went to bed the night of his draft thinking he was no worse than a second round graded LT and would work out like Clifton did.

Guiness

07-22-2013, 04:54 PM

You sure that was regular season? Because the alternating regular season combo I remember was Clifton and Newhouse. Prior to his injury, Sherrod was the RT after Bulaga went down. They would have had to be alternating prior to the Washington (EDIT: should read KC) game.

It apparently did happen - from the Packers bio on Sherrod

Vs. Oakland (Dec. 11): Received increased reps during the practice week and saw action as part of a rotation with Newhouse at LT. Helped block for an offense that racked up 391 yards in a 46-16 win…

A rotation at LT? Never heard of that before, and don't remember it *shrug* but seems like that's what happened. That was the week before the KC game.

Guiness

07-22-2013, 04:55 PM

Speaking of right tackle know who I bet would win? Eric Winston
He is a relatively cheap acquisition prior to TC and could anchor the right for four years easy

Keep beating that drum buddy!

Joemailman

07-22-2013, 05:05 PM

It apparently did happen - from the Packers bio on Sherrod

A rotation at LT? Never heard of that before, and don't remember it *shrug* but seems like that's what happened. That was the week before the KC game.

The game was 31-0 at halftime. Newhouse started. They probably put Sherrod in at some point. Not sure it was actually a rotation.

Bretsky

07-22-2013, 06:03 PM

Keep beating that drum buddy!

I'd be all about Winston; he's be a great addition and I've heard him enough on NFL Network to know he has a great work ethic, attitude, and is a great leader.

With that being said, signing Eric Winston at the expense of a less talented and cheaper young guy who might develop represents everything ANTI TT.

Aint's gonna happen

Bretsky

07-22-2013, 06:06 PM

pbmax

07-22-2013, 06:06 PM

I have apparently blocked out large segments of the 2011 season out of my mind. 2005 I understand, but 2011 they were 15-1. I really need to get the Game Rewind.

Joemailman

07-22-2013, 06:49 PM

to defend the pick of Justine.......nearly all of the projections I saw as a wanna be draft GM had him projected to go at the top of round 2 .....and noted he cuold slip into round one since teams often have the need at OT

I assume you mean Sherry. Your recollection is right though. I actually thought the Bears were going to take Sherrod, and the Packers would end up with Carimi. Glad that didn't happen. At least this way, unlike the Bears, there's still a chance the Packers get something out of that pick

Upnorth

07-23-2013, 09:18 AM

Is it just me or does TT do better at drafting the further he gets from the line? It seems like he has put more picks into DL and OL than anywhere else and has less to show for it.

Upnorth

07-23-2013, 10:37 AM

Okay so here goes with TT's ol and dl draft history,

2005
5a. JUNIUS COSTON, C, North Carolina A&T, 143
6a. MICHAEL MONTGOMERY, DE, Texas A&M, 180
7b. WILLIAM WHITTICKER, G, Michigan State, 246

2006
2a. DARYN COLLEDGE, T/G, Boise State, 47
3b. JASON SPITZ, G/C, Louisville, 75
5b. TONY MOLL, T, Nevada, 165
6a. JOHNNY JOLLY, DT, Texas A&M, 183
7. DAVE TOLLEFSON, DE, Northwest Missouri State, 253

2007
1. JUSTIN HARRELL, DT, Tennessee, 16
4. ALLEN BARBRE, T/G, Missouri Southern St, 119

2008
4a. JEREMY THOMPSON, DE, Wake Forest, 102
4b. JOSH SITTON, G, Central Florida, 135
5. BRENO GIACOMINI, T, Louisville, 150

2009
1a. B.J. RAJI, NT, Boston College, 9
4. T.J. LANG, G/T, Eastern Michigan, 109
6a. JARIUS WYNN, DE, Georgia, 182

2010
1. BRYAN BULAGA, T, Iowa, 23
2. MIKE NEAL, DE, Purdue, 56
7. C.J. WILSON, DE, East Carolina, 230

2011
1. DEREK SHERROD, T, Mississippi State, 32
7b. LAWRENCE GUY, DE, Arizona State, 233

So I see 11 OL and 10 DL
2005 was a writeoff
2006 got College and Jolly, Jolly being a big hit in the 7th round
2007 was maybe Barbre
2008 was Sitton and maybe Giacomini
2009 was Raji and Lang
2010 Was Bulaga and Wilson (some would argue for Neal)
2011 was Sherrod
So out of 21 tries he got 10 including 2 marginal picks. 50% isn’t that bad for drafting, I guess I was wrong on his sucsess at the Line.

Maxie the Taxi

07-23-2013, 10:53 AM

I'd guess that's about par for all positions. Drafting talent is no sure bet.

run pMc

07-23-2013, 02:58 PM

2010 Was Bulaga and Wilson (some would argue for Neal)

Were you forgetting Newhouse, or was that intentional? Pretty sure he was a D5 from 2010.
If you're batting .500 on your draft picks you're doing pretty good. Jury's out on Bahktiari and Tretter, but I'm hoping they pan out. Same thing on DL with Jones and Boyd.

Depending on how you look at it, it's either a scary sign of the depth on the roster or a credit to the scouting/personnel dept. that they can find guys like EDS and Barclay (among others).

Upnorth

07-23-2013, 03:24 PM

Were you forgetting Newhouse, or was that intentional? Pretty sure he was a D5 from 2010.
If you're batting .500 on your draft picks you're doing pretty good. Jury's out on Bahktiari and Tretter, but I'm hoping they pan out. Same thing on DL with Jones and Boyd.

Depending on how you look at it, it's either a scary sign of the depth on the roster or a credit to the scouting/personnel dept. that they can find guys like EDS and Barclay (among others).

:oops: My bad, especially as I was a big Newhouse schill his first year and a half. now the count is 22 and 11 which is quite good.
Anyone else spot one of my mistakes? :oops:

Patler

07-23-2013, 05:28 PM

:oops: My bad, especially as I was a big Newhouse schill his first year and a half. now the count is 22 and 11 which is quite good.
Anyone else spot one of my mistakes? :oops:

I always get confused by these types of "hit/miss" evaluations, because it is never all that clear.

Apparently you classify Montgomery in 2005 as a "miss"? Yet he was on the roster for 5 years, and played in 56 games. They even brought him back for a few games in his sixth year (2010). A sixth round draft pick who fills a roster spot for 5 years is a pretty decent return on the investment,

Similarly with Spitz. 5 years on the Packers, 41 starts in his first 3 years. Career seemed on a higher trajectory than Colledge's, until he injured his back after moving to center full time in his abbreviated 4th season. I have a hard time saying that TT missed on that pick, even though it didn't turn out as a long term answer.

Guiness

07-23-2013, 05:56 PM

I always get confused by these types of "hit/miss" evaluations, because it is never all that clear.

Apparently you classify Montgomery in 2005 as a "miss"? Yet he was on the roster for 5 years, and played in 56 games. They even brought him back for a few games in his sixth year (2010). A sixth round draft pick who fills a roster spot for 5 years is a pretty decent return on the investment,

Similarly with Spitz. 5 years on the Packers, 41 starts in his first 3 years. Career seemed on a higher trajectory than Colledge's, until he injured his back after moving to center full time in his abbreviated 4th season. I have a hard time saying that TT missed on that pick, even though it didn't turn out as a long term answer.

lol, you have to know you're asking to be picked apart doing player evaluations!

My quibble would be saying this guy
http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/lou/sports/m-footbl/03-04roster/HS_spitz_jason.jpg
is a miss and Barbre is a maybe?

Plus, it's a good excuse to post one of the all-time best bio photos.

Oh ya, the dude plays some soccer too
http://blu.stb.s-msn.com/i/73/D3E341574C83275FA0D358608DCD6_h316_w628_m5_ccEvJaQ GX.jpg

:mrgreen:

HarveyWallbangers

07-23-2013, 06:44 PM

Here's the link...

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2011/profiles/derek-sherrod?id=2495230

If I remember correctly, those NFL.com projections get stale. They get written up right after the college season or around the scouting combine, but players often move up in the rankings after the combine. Sherrod was generally projected to be a high 2nd round pick with some having him sneak into the first round.

Patler

07-23-2013, 06:47 PM

lol, you have to know you're asking to be picked apart doing player evaluations!

My quibble would be saying this guy
is a miss and Barbre is a maybe?

Funny thing is, considering the roster condition at the time, it can be argued that Whitticker was a good pick, too. No, he wasn't a long term answer, and when they went with MM's new scheme he really was a fish out of water, but for one year he was good enough to start when others were not good enough. That year, he improved their roster. A year's worth of starts from a throw-away 7th round pick? Not bad. He gave the team a lot more plays than most 7th rounders ever do.

HarveyWallbangers

07-23-2013, 06:50 PM

1st round:
http://draftbreakdown.com/scouting-report-derek-sherrod/

2nd round:
http://www.profootballweekly.com/prospects/player/derek-sherrod-79/

1st-2nd round:
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=71754&draftyear=2011

USA Today (2 guys had him going 22nd in 1st round, 2 guys had him going 29th in 1st round, 2 guys had him out of the 1st round):
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2011-mock-draft.htm

http://blogs.clarionledger.com/msu/2011/04/28/projecting-the-bulldogs-derek-sherrod/

What say the national experts? I pulled the latest mock drafts from 10 popular analysts, including seven from the NFL Network and NFL.com. ESPN’s Mel Kiper and Todd McShay and the pool votes from The National Football Post complete the picks.

Seven of the 10 analysts believe Sherrod will be picked in the first round tonight.

He definitely had a last 1st to early 2nd round consensus projection.

Upnorth

07-23-2013, 07:09 PM

I always get confused by these types of "hit/miss" evaluations, because it is never all that clear.

Apparently you classify Montgomery in 2005 as a "miss"? Yet he was on the roster for 5 years, and played in 56 games. They even brought him back for a few games in his sixth year (2010). A sixth round draft pick who fills a roster spot for 5 years is a pretty decent return on the investment,

Similarly with Spitz. 5 years on the Packers, 41 starts in his first 3 years. Career seemed on a higher trajectory than Colledge's, until he injured his back after moving to center full time in his abbreviated 4th season. I have a hard time saying that TT missed on that pick, even though it didn't turn out as a long term answer.

Anyone but Patler spot one of my mistakes...
Seriously I remember nothing but complaints over Spitz so maybe I am not being fair to him, but I did not think of him as a solution. As to Montgomery that is a great return on a 6th round pick.
I have trouble with the good pick bad pick analysis as well. Where does Neal fit in for example? He has been here for 3 years, last year finally seeing the field and getting 4.5 sacks for it. Is that a good pick or bad pick for th esecond round?

All in all I put about 10 minutes into a question I had, which was does TT suck at drafting along the lines. My answer which was no he does not, in fact he is pretty good at it still stands. Where your opinion and my opinions may differ on specific players, I still think TT is doing better than I previously gave credit for.

Upnorth

07-23-2013, 07:14 PM

lol, you have to know you're asking to be picked apart doing player evaluations!

My quibble would be saying this guy
http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/lou/sports/m-footbl/03-04roster/HS_spitz_jason.jpg
is a miss and Barbre is a maybe?

Plus, it's a good excuse to post one of the all-time best bio photos.

Oh ya, the dude plays some soccer too
http://blu.stb.s-msn.com/i/73/D3E341574C83275FA0D358608DCD6_h316_w628_m5_ccEvJaQ GX.jpg

:mrgreen:

I agree that i over looked certain players, and may even have missed copy/pasting some others like with Newhouse, but I do have to agree that is the best player bio pic!

HarveyWallbangers

07-23-2013, 09:24 PM

I won't limit myself to just one each way. These guys will not make the team:

Offense - Sherrod, Kuhn, Starks, DJ Williams, Ryan Taylor
Defense - Daniels, Francois, Lattimore, T. Williams.

I think Starks is as good as gone. I think Williams is battling Bostick for the pass catching backup. I think Taylor is fighting Mulligan for the blocking backup. If healthy, Finley and Quarless are locks. Not sure about Kuhn. Depends on how some of the young guys do, but I think they like his versatility. If I had to predict, I say he sticks. With Sherrod I think it all comes down to his health, and I'm not sure anybody knows where he's at.

I think Daniels makes it and Francois gets cut. Wouldn't be shocked by Tramon. Those are some bold predictions though. I might be biased, but I think the coaching staff is high on Lattimore's potential. It all depends on if he keeps improving. A lot of guys kind of plateau at this point in their career.

http://www.packersnews.com/article/20130723/PKR01/307230321/Training-camp-preview-Packers-opt-durable-LBs-Hawk-Jones-inside

The undrafted Lattimore (6-2, 237) couldn’t get big enough to hold up at outside linebacker in ‘11 so last year moved to inside linebacker, which is looking like his best position. He’s caught the coaching staff’s attention as a core special teams player for two years and in fact last season was named the Packers’ special teams captain in the playoffs. His length and athleticism make him an attractive developmental inside linebacker.

“His upside, his potential,” Moss said, “when you get a guy that has his height and his linear body makeup, he’s ideal to play against those teams that have those very effective tight ends that look like basketball players.

“You love the players that have the Brandon Chillar type of body, the Brad Jones type of body. Absolutely. Jamari’s proved he’s a very effective special teams player. I’m glad to have a chance to work with him, because when we give him that opportunity, he could be something.”

Upnorth

07-24-2013, 11:00 AM

Interesting article on the Oline, alot has been discussed, http://gnb.scout.com/2/1309562.html

My favorite part was
C Evan Dietrich-Smith (6-2, 308; fourth season): He wasn’t perfect, but Dietrich-Smith played so well at center in his four starts that the Packers didn’t touch a deep draft class. He allowed just one pressure in 89 pass-protecting snaps.

One in 89 is a good number. I dont remember the inside improving greatly with EDS, but I will take that protection.

run pMc

07-24-2013, 11:18 AM

lol, you have to know you're asking to be picked apart doing player evaluations!

LOL, very true. That said, I appreciate the time/effort in putting the list together and having an opinion. I agree that TT is a very good at drafting talent, and frankly am more inclined to give him the credit than the coaching staff...but that's due to my occasional frustrations/biases against Campen, Slocum, et al.

It would be interesting to come up with some sort of criteria to determine a great pick, good pick, bad pick, or bust...presumably the round the player was drafted as well as games played, games started, and production play into that. That's may prove a subjective exercise, but I think the results would still show that TT rivals Ron Wolf in draft acumen. It's fair to argue TT > Wolf in the draft, but Wolf destroys him in FA.

Fritz

07-24-2013, 04:15 PM

maybe, but I think the game has changed so that Wolf had advantages TT doesn't. When Wolf was running the show, the sal cap was new and teams didn't know how to handle it very well. I think Wolf took advantage of that - and good that he did.

HarveyWallbangers

07-26-2013, 12:12 AM

packer4life

07-26-2013, 01:38 AM

A GBPG article on special teams today stated that Bush, Lattimore, and Francois were the top three special teams players on the team last year, so those three might have a little more job security than most realize.

Contrary to Red's belief, Bush has value to this team. An emergency dime back and special teams stalwart. If he gets cut, it is because TT is stuck on Williams, Shields, Hayward, House and Micah. Micah may just be the fit at backup backup safety, making Bush an easy keep.