Bulaga hurt?

[KYPack]

Sweet Jesus, say it ain't so...

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/218310911.html

[Patler]

A china doll.

[Bossman641]

Just saw this as well. Please no!

[Pugger]

Oh god no! Why in the hell does this shit keep happening to us???? :cry:

[Carolina_Packer]

Hoping for the best!

[pbmax]

So much for the 49ers being ahead of the Packers on bad knee injuries.

So Plan A might be going out the window. Let's hope there is a Plan B. You have to think its Newhouse back to left if Bulaga is out for major time.

Bakhtiari and Barclay have had time at RT, but very very little at Left. I think DB only was there for a small number of snaps in the last couple of practices.

They would really need to be sold on DB to trust a rookie 4th rounder over there.

[Patler]

Will be interesting to see what they do.
Newhouse back to LT?
Or, does Bakhtiari gets the first look?
Maybe Datko gets a chance?

[pbmax]

Will be interesting to see what they do.
Newhouse back to LT?
Or, does Bakhtiari gets the first look?
Maybe Datko gets a chance?

Word on Datko in camp so far is no new progress. Hasn't built on steps he took during the season last year. Hard to say for certain, but other tackles have been getting 2nd team snaps.

[pbmax]

Jason Wilde ‏@jasonjwilde 16m
So @paulajwilde and I go to dinner, and #Packers team physician Dr. Pat McKenzie is there. Came to our table. Great at HIPPA laws, clearly.

[Patler]

Too bad, too, per Ketchman:


Bryan Bulaga is playing the best left tackle I’ve seen in the three Packers training camps I’ve covered. He’s been dominant so far in this camp. I see nothing about the flip-flop that isn’t positive. The center job belongs to Dietrich-Smith. The issue at center is the backup job. Don Barclay has struggled with the snaps. I like what I see in Greg Van Roten. The right tackle job is Marshall Newhouse’s to hold, but Barclay and David Bakhtiari are strong competitors for that spot.

[Joemailman]

Newhouse has proven over 2+ seasons he doesn't have the ability to be a viable LT. If Bulaga is out, let Bakhtiari or Datko have a chance. Don't reward mediocrity.

[Patler]

Word on Datko in camp so far is no new progress. Hasn't built on steps he took during the season last year. Hard to say for certain, but other tackles have been getting 2nd team snaps.

Lasr year he struggled until they let him concentrate on LT. Sometimes, what a guy needs is an opportunity.

[pbmax]

Lasr year he struggled until they let him concentrate on LT. Sometimes, what a guy needs is an opportunity.

Can't argue with that but I am also not sure where else he has been practicing.

[pbmax]

McGinn broke this story and Packer Report just had this Tweet:

Packer Report ‏@PackerReport 5m
Saw Bulaga get up slowly, limp to huddle near end zone on first series. Obviously, kept playing rest of night. MM didn't mention afterward.

I don't think anyone, TV, Radio, Twitter, mentioned it last night. But apparently reporters saw the play.

[Joemailman]

Can't argue with that but I am also not sure where else he has been practicing.

I thought Datko was getting reps at LG.

[Pugger]

Will be interesting to see what they do.
Newhouse back to LT?
Or, does Bakhtiari gets the first look?
Maybe Datko gets a chance?

Maybe now they'll stop screwing around with trying to make Datko a guard.

[Patler]

Can't argue with that but I am also not sure where else he has been practicing.

Both guards.

[pbmax]

I thought Datko was getting reps at LG.


Maybe now they'll stop screwing around with trying to make Datko a guard.

Good memories. I had forgotten about that. Consumed with questions about Barclay getting reps at guard.

Went back through scrimmage notes and Datko worked at both RG and LT.

[mission]

Rumor from a GB local who knows a lot of players is that Bulaga's knee injury is "brutal"... fuck.

[pbmax]

Rumor from a GB local who knows a lot of players is that Bulaga's knee injury is "brutal"... fuck.

Well, its good he continued to play on it. After all, it was Family Night.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Newhouse has proven over 2+ seasons he doesn't have the ability to be a viable LT. If Bulaga is out, let Bakhtiari or Datko have a chance. Don't reward mediocrity.
Ahh yes, the Forrest Gregg theory. I remember when Gregg cut Dickie & Paul Coffman and a whole bunch of other "8-8 players." Team went 4-12 until they fired Gregg.

I was a Newhouse detractor way, way before it was cool. He doesn't finish plays, he kinda gives up too often. But he has ability. He looked pretty good in about half the games last year. There is no way the Packers are going to throw-away his experience and break-in a brand new great-white-hope at the critical LT position.

[OS PA]

PFT is reporting a torn ACL.

Is there a snowball's chance in hell that Sherrod comes off of the PUP list?

[smuggler]

God damn it. :(

[RashanGary]

I was a Newhouse detractor way, way before it was cool. He doesn't finish plays, he kinda gives up too often. But he has ability. He looked pretty good in about half the games last year. There is no way the Packers are going to throw-away his experience and break-in a brand new great-white-hope at the critical LT position.


Well said, and welcome back. Newhouse back to LT makes the most sense. Barclay and Bahktiari battle it out for the RT position, the loser of the battle being our first OL off the bench. After that, we're looking at a lot of question marks. Datko, Van-Rotten, Sherrod, and others. . . . .

[packrulz]

Bakhtiari played LT his sophomore and junior years in college, and that was the best of his career, I would think he would have a shot at starting at LT: CAREER Highlights:

Drafted by the Packers with the first of three fourth-round selections (No. 129 overall). The choice was obtained in a draft-day trade with Miami, along with a fifth-round pick (No. 146) and a seventh-round selection (No. 224), in exchange for a third-round choice (No. 93).
Became the first Colorado offensive lineman to be drafted by the Packers since C Joe Garten in 1991 (sixth round, No. 164 overall).
Earned second-team All-Pacific-12 honors from the conference’s coaches each of his last two years (sophomore and junior seasons) at Colorado.
Was named to the watch lists for both the Outland Trophy and the Lombardi Award in 2012.
Started 11 games at left tackle as a junior in 2012 and graded out as the team’s top lineman at 89.8 percent.
Was the co-recipient of the John Mack Award as the team’s most outstanding offensive player in 2012.
Opened 11 games at left tackle as a sophomore in 2011 and earned second-team Sophomore All-America honors from collegefootballnews.com.
Earned honorable mention All-Big 12 recognition from The Associated Press and honorable mention Freshman All-America honors from collegefootballnews.com in 2010, when he started 11 games at right tackle.
Oldest brother, Eric, is a free-agent linebacker who has played with the Tennessee Titans (2009) and San Francisco 49ers (2012). Another older brother, Andrew, played defensive end at the University of San Diego.
Majored in communication at Colorado.

[packer4life]

Well that just took the wind out ofy sails...

[Joemailman]

Ahh yes, the Forrest Gregg theory. I remember when Gregg cut Dickie & Paul Coffman and a whole bunch of other "8-8 players." Team went 4-12 until they fired Gregg.

I was a Newhouse detractor way, way before it was cool. He doesn't finish plays, he kinda gives up too often. But he has ability. He looked pretty good in about half the games last year. There is no way the Packers are going to throw-away his experience and break-in a brand new great-white-hope at the critical LT position.

You want a LT who looks good about half the time? I don't. Datko is healthy now, and when healthy, he was a better college player than Newhouse was. He deserves a chance to compete for the position with Bakhtiari.


He doesn't finish plays, he kinda gives up too often. But he has ability.

You know what that part of your post reads like? It reads like the scouting report on Newhouse prior to him being drafted. He hasn't been able to lessen his weaknesses. Despite 1+ years as a starting LT, he hasn't gotten any better. And he probably won't. Reports are he's been doing pretty well at RT. Why not leave him at a position he can handle?

[Fritz]

PFT is reporting a torn ACL.

Is there a snowball's chance in hell that Sherrod comes off of the PUP list?

Oh for fuck's sake. This really, truly, is ridiculous. What have Thompson and McCarthy done to anger the gods so?

I'm so mad right now. But at whom?

[Packers4Glory]

if he's out this line is going to suck....again.

[pbmax]

PFT is reporting a torn ACL.

Is there a snowball's chance in hell that Sherrod comes off of the PUP list?

A chance yes. But no one has mentioned a timetable. The only advance he has made that has been commented on is that he is farther along than he was at any time in the offseason and that he is knee is allowing him full freedom of movement.

But there is not timetable and McCarthy said he has to be able to make "football moves" before he can get out to practice. So he has other tests to pass with no public acknowledgement of a schedule. That usually means weeks not days unfortunately. I really hope I am wrong on this one.

I understand Joe and Patler not wanting to patch LT with Newhouse again and instead try Bahk or Datko. But of all the spots on the team, LT gets the fewest rookie or inexperienced starts. The temptation to go with a known quantity is strong. McCarthy is not afraid to think outside the box at times though.

[Teamcheez1]

Bulaga missed 4 games in 2011, 7 games in 2012, and this will be all 16 games in 2013. The trend line does not look good. Is this his contract year, or is it 2014?

[Patler]

2014

[Patler]

Bulaga missed 4 games in 2011, 7 games in 2012, and this will be all 16 games in 2013. The trend line does not look good. Is this his contract year, or is it 2014?

..and don't forget that as a rookie, he seemed on track to take the starting LG spot away from Colledge, than got hurt, missed the end of TC wasn't ready to start the season. He was splitting reps with Colledge with the first line, and MM said he was a definite option, then was gone for a few weeks.

[cheesner]

You want a LT who looks good about half the time? I don't. Datko is healthy now, and when healthy, he was a better college player than Newhouse was. He deserves a chance to compete for the position with Bakhtiari.
You expect all players to be as good as they will ever be immediately? Newhouse improved significantly each year he has been here. No reason to think he maxed out already.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Oh for fuck's sake. This really, truly, is ridiculous. What have Thompson and McCarthy done to anger the gods so?

I'm so mad right now. But at whom?

Fire Slocum

[pittstang5]

So this is going to be the norm? We lose a valuable player every pre-season game - Family night included. All I can do is shake my head right now. Too depressed to get angry.

At some point, this injury bug is going to stop.

[pittstang5]

Here's a thought.

So, Newhouse has to move to LT, at least for now, for obvious reasons. Do you now move Sitton back to RG and Lang back to LG. I thought they moved both Sitton and Bulaga to the left side because they knew each and played better together. Newhouse and Lang probably know each other better.

What a cluster F**k.

FUBAR, people, complete and utter FUBAR.

[Harlan Huckleby]

So, Newhouse has to move to LT, at least for now, for obvious reasons. Do you now move Sitton back to RG and Lang back to LG. I thought they moved both Sitton and Bulaga to the left side because they knew each and played better together. Newhouse and Lang probably know each other better.

I think the main reason they switched the guards was to get their best run blockers together on same side. Newhouse will never be much of a drive blocker so I would bet that you are right, they will put Sitton and Bakhtiari together and be a right-handed running team.

Newhouse is best suited for the bench. The next best position that fits his skills is LT, he has good feet in space IMO. We don't know where Bakhtiari will ultimately fit best, but for his maiden voyage RT makes sense.

Me, I go to the chapel every morning and light a candle for a miracle of the Sherrod.

[Patler]

This is really quite unbelievable. You use 1st round picks in successive years on big tackles, hoping it will be the foundation for your O-line for years to come, and in what should be their third year together, neither one is on the field.

Here is a good research question I wish some sports writer would spend some time on. If he starts, will Bakhtiari be the smallest starting tackle in the NFL? I can't imagine a 295-300# LT is very common in today's NFL

[Freak Out]

Time to resurrect the FUCK!!!! thread.

[denverYooper]

Bulaga is seeking a 2nd opinion from James Andrews: http://www.hubarkush.com/2013/08/05/bulaga-injury-reshapes-nfc-north/b1q26o4/

[Bossman641]

I can't even guess what they are going to do in regards to Lang and Sitton now. I'm guessing they keep Sitton on the left side under the thought process of protecting Rodgers' blind side but who the fuck knows.

Come on Sherrod!! We are due for some good injury news.

[Bossman641]

This is really quite unbelievable. You use 1st round picks in successive years on big tackles, hoping it will be the foundation for your O-line for years to come, and in what should be their third year together, neither one is on the field.

Here is a good research question I wish some sports writer would spend some time on. If he starts, will Bakhtiari be the smallest starting tackle in the NFL? I can't imagine a 295-300# LT is very common in today's NFL

Give McGinn time and I'm sure he will get to it. He was already beating the "weight" drum with some rather ridiculous questions to TT in their annual Q&A the other day.

[run pMc]

Oh, this is really bad news. I was hoping Bulaga was all the way back from the hip and would be healthy going forward. Unfortunately, he's earning the "injury-prone" label now. I'd think Newhouse, Barclay, and Bahktiari are locks to make the roster. Bahktiari is a little small for LT (he could use about 10-15 lbs of NFL weight room muscle) but I think he could do it -- it depends on how the competition at both tackle spots shakes out. I don't know how much this opens the door for Sherrod; reports I've read don't sound very good for Datko.

TT won't bring in a vet off the street.

This certainly complicates the decision to flip flop the line, but I think they'll keep Sitton at LG. He's better than Lang and will help whomever they put at LT. Flipping Lang and Sitton back to their original spots would be a setback at this point -- they've been practicing at their new spots for months.

[run pMc]

Here is a good research question I wish some sports writer would spend some time on. If he starts, will Bakhtiari be the smallest starting tackle in the NFL? I can't imagine a 295-300# LT is very common in today's NFL

Agree -- it would be a good research question. At 6-41/2 300lbs. he would be one of the shorter LT's, and the lightest as well. He actually has longer arms than Bulaga and if he has good feet they might be ok. I think Newhouse will move back to LT and Barclay will take the RT spot, Bahktiari will be the backup swing tackle, and Sherrod will come off the PUP midseason to push for a spot.

Matt Kalil played pretty good as a rookie, and he was listed at 6-7 308lbs. (I think he's up to 315 now.) His height and athleticism certainly helped, but 308 is relatively lean. I've read that's a trend some teams are going to -- at least with LT's -- preferring athleticism over brute strength and girth. Tyron Smith was 6-5 308 when drafted and is pretty athletic...etc.

[pittstang5]

I just don't see a better option than Newhouse at LT. We know TT won't bring a veteran in, Hell, I don't even know if there's any LTs out there that are worth a damn.

And I can't see the rookie coming in and playing any better than Newhouse, especially against guys like Jared Allen, Aldon Smith, etc, etc.

[Carolina_Packer]

Come on Dr. Andrews. Hope the 2nd opinion is good, but who knows. Geez, this timing is bad. The only guy out there worth a flip, Eric Winston, just signed a one year deal July 25th with the Cardinals. I know that's not the Packer way. The other options are Jared Gaither (27, but injury concerns and questionable desire) and Frank Omiyale (Journeyman). My guess would be that they fill from within. I don't know if they will just Bakhtiari a shot, move Newhouse back to LT or somehow Sherrod is cleared to play and is serviceable until he can work his way back into game shape. I'm hoping that Sherrod is healthy enough to go back in at LT, otherwise, I think they might give Bakhtiari a shot. I think Newhouse is better off staying at RT.

[pbmax]

Come on Dr. Andrews. Hope the 2nd opinion is good, but who knows. Geez, this timing is bad. The only guy out there worth a flip, Eric Winston, just signed a one year deal July 25th with the Cardinals. I know that's not the Packer way. The other options are Jared Gaither (27, but injury concerns and questionable desire) and Frank Omiyale (Journeyman). My guess would be that they fill from within. I don't know if they will just Bakhtiari a shot, move Newhouse back to LT or somehow Sherrod is cleared to play and is serviceable until he can work his way back into game shape. I'm hoping that Sherrod is healthy enough to go back in at LT, otherwise, I think they might give Bakhtiari a shot. I think Newhouse is better off staying at RT.

I think that is wishful thinking if Joe Bulaga's comment to Hub Arkush is any indication. Seems based on Bulaga being able to play after the injury. But Pat McKenzie is a former disciple of James Andrews so I think the odds of a different diagnosis is slim.

[Patler]

Will be interesting to see what they do.
Newhouse back to LT?
Or, does Bakhtiari gets the first look?
Maybe Datko gets a chance?



I understand Joe and Patler not wanting to patch LT with Newhouse again and instead try Bahk or Datko. But of all the spots on the team, LT gets the fewest rookie or inexperienced starts. The temptation to go with a known quantity is strong. McCarthy is not afraid to think outside the box at times though.

Just to be clear, my first option is Newhouse, I just raised the possibilities of the other two. I would immediately put Newhouse there, and assume he would start the season there; but, I would give Datko and Bahktiari every opportunity to prove themselves over the next month.

If there is a silver lining to this kick in the gut, it's that they have a long time to get ready to play without Bulaga, and they shouldn't be any worse than they were at LT last year (I know, I know, that wasn't very good.) I would hope that Newhouse might be better than last year, or that another lineman surfaces as a better option than Newhouse.

I will admit to being intrigued by Datko. He is a big guy who was stellar in pass protection as a Sophmore and Junior. He was projected as a sold 2nd round pick, who might move into the first round with a good Senior season.

[Old School]

The thing that frustrates me to the point of not knowing whether to shit or go blind is MM. He'll spin, dodge, duck, hide, rope a dope, cancel practice, and Mass on Sunday before he'll speak the truth. I guess if he can't sleep at night, he thinks the fans should suffer with uncertainty about the season. He's got a future in politics.

[Patler]

The thing that frustrates me to the point of not knowing whether to shit or go blind is MM. He'll spin, dodge, duck, hide, rope a dope, cancel practice, and Mass on Sunday before he'll speak the truth. I guess if he can't sleep at night, he thinks the fans should suffer with uncertainty about the season. He's got a future in politics.

What do you expect him to do?

[denverYooper]

The thing that frustrates me to the point of not knowing whether to shit or go blind is MM. He'll spin, dodge, duck, hide, rope a dope, cancel practice, and Mass on Sunday before he'll speak the truth. I guess if he can't sleep at night, he thinks the fans should suffer with uncertainty about the season. He's got a future in politics.

I wouldn't expect any less now that the season is underway. Any tightly run organization is the same way wrt message control when every bit of information can be seen as a competitive advantage.

[Old School]

Sometimes I think what passes for competitive advantage is paranoid overkill.

[Bossman641]

The thing that frustrates me to the point of not knowing whether to shit or go blind is MM. He'll spin, dodge, duck, hide, rope a dope, cancel practice, and Mass on Sunday before he'll speak the truth. I guess if he can't sleep at night, he thinks the fans should suffer with uncertainty about the season. He's got a future in politics.

Are you talking in regards to cancelling practice today? Apparently they had a team-building exercise (paintball, bowling, something) planned for today and had kept it a secret from the media.

[pbmax]

From Bob McGinn: http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/218380031.html


The Packers are expected to move David Bakhtiari, their prized rookie, into the lineup for Bulaga. Coach Mike McCarthy, who canceled a practice scheduled Monday afternoon, was using the day to decide whether to go with Bakhtiari at left or right tackle. Marshall Newhouse, the other starter, can play either side.

[Bossman641]

From Bob McGinn: http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/218380031.html

I wish I knew more about this quote. Is McGinn expecting them to move Bakhtiari or does he have an actual source.

[RashanGary]

In the long run, we do not have an LT on the roster we can count on. Bulaga either. He's a china doll, to quote Patler. The riskiest possible answer to this dilema is inserting a 6'4 1/2" 299 lb 4th round draft pick into the LT position and see what he's got. And that's the decision MM has come to. Honestly, if nothing else, I admire MM for the size of his balls.

[wist43]

This is soooooo simple - you guys are really dense!!!

Sitton will move to RG, Lang will move to LT, the Persian guy will move to RT, EDS will move to LG, Barclay will move to C - duh!!

From there, of course, it follows that Newhouse is your new Fullback, Datko your new TE, Sherrod is the new Quality Control guy in charge of breaking down tape, and Van Roten has excellent feet and will be tried at CB.

This is sooooo simple and obvious - how is it the rest of you can't see this???? ;)

[Upnorth]

Ahh yes, the Forrest Gregg theory. I remember when Gregg cut Dickie & Paul Coffman and a whole bunch of other "8-8 players." Team went 4-12 until they fired Gregg.

I was a Newhouse detractor way, way before it was cool. He doesn't finish plays, he kinda gives up too often. But he has ability. He looked pretty good in about half the games last year. There is no way the Packers are going to throw-away his experience and break-in a brand new great-white-hope at the critical LT position.

So after being a big newhouse supporter, I had been switched to the dark side. On the other hand no one else has proven anything at tackle so I say start Newhouse at LT and let camp / preseason determine is Barclay or Datko are teh starting RT.
In retrospece once EDS started at center they started to play a bit better, so the guards did not have to worry so much about the center which made the tackles better. Who knows maybe we will have a top 5 oline this year.



Oh yeah and awww crap!

[TravisWilliams23]

As bad as we all feel now, imagine what Rodgers must be thinking!

He's been on his ass waaaaaay too many times recently and it just got a little worse.

[pbmax]

I wish I knew more about this quote. Is McGinn expecting them to move Bakhtiari or does he have an actual source.

Its written like he is reporting an established fact. He does not specify other than to say he has a source on the diagnosis on the torn ACL. So it could be informed speculation.

He did Tweet out the same info, clearly stating it is DB moving into the lineup at a position to be determined.

[Patler]

As bad as we all feel now, imagine what Rodgers must be thinking!

He's been on his ass waaaaaay too many times recently and it just got a little worse.

Nah, it didn't get worse; it just has failed to get better! :-D

[Packers4Glory]

shitty line just got more shittier

[George Cumby]

I'm somewhat more sanguine about this than others.

As Patler pointed out years ago, championship teams are those that overcome adversity. I think Bacteria gets a shot at LT, they know what they have in Newhouse and he's not up to the task.

Another thing to consider is the running game is going to be improved. That alone is going to slow the pass rush. Pound Lacy up Allen's ass a couple of times in the first drive and that will give the opposing D something to think about other than decapitating Rodgers.

This is obviously bad, but it isn't catastrophic.

[Packers4Glory]

Running the ball often and effectively is the only hope they have so they can run play action and keep AR from getting killed. Better dust off the old screen pass and swing pass as well. quick slant and outs. The big plays down the field are going to have to come via play action. Going to have to be really careful w/ the straight 5 step drops because defenses will be salivating in those 3rd and long situations. Finley better have his shit together this yr to exploit the middle.

[pbmax]

Sounds like RT material to me:

SI_DougFarrar ‏@SI_DougFarrar 52m
Bakhtiari as LT -- good lock-on guy, has some drive power. Not a space player yet -- will struggle at second level. Loses the edge vs. speed

[Carolina_Packer]

Sounds like RT material to me:

SI_DougFarrar ‏@SI_DougFarrar 52m
Bakhtiari as LT -- good lock-on guy, has some drive power. Not a space player yet -- will struggle at second level. Loses the edge vs. speed

Sometimes, it's just bad luck. Nobody asked for Sherrod and Bulaga to get hurt, it just happened. If anyone blames TT for not having good enough back-ups for those positions, you can second guess the depth, but how many teams have someone equally as good as the starter sitting there waiting to step in? Very few to none. How many teams are willing to commit starter money to high quality backups? Very few to none. When stuff like this happens, your depth gets tested, the quality of draft (or sign) and develop gets tested, and it's never as optimal as if the two first-rounders were healthy, but it is what it is and they have to adjust now.

Except for bad luck, the OL could be RT=Bulaga, RG=Sitton, C=EDS, LG=Lang, LT=Sherrod (assuming that the two first rounders never got hurt, and no position switches were ever needed)

That's a pretty good line there. Too bad for what's happened, but they have to move on have the next man up mentality. Perhaps this year Sherrod will be as good a surprise as Bulaga was a bad surprise.

[Patler]

I confess, it's my fault. I cursed BB's transition to LT way back on 4/30/2013, when I wrote:



Bulaga is a china doll, so will miss some games.
Newhouse will sub for Bulaga based on experience, but will be pushed by Bakhtiari/Datko.
Behind Barclay on the right side will be Bakhtiari, then Newhouse.

Heck, I'm not sure Sherrod even makes the team, let alone starts a game! :wink:

[hoosier]

I confess, it's my fault. I cursed BB's transition to LT way back on 4/30/2013, when I wrote:

Bulaga is a china doll, so will miss some games.
Newhouse will sub for Bulaga based on experience, but will be pushed by Bakhtiari/Datko.
Behind Barclay on the right side will be Bakhtiari, then Newhouse.

Heck, I'm not sure Sherrod even makes the team, let alone starts a game!

Can you give us your prophecy for the defense? With another year of turbulence on the offensive line and record sacks allowed in the forecast, I want to know now whether this season is even worth getting invested in or not.

[wist43]

Just b/c we drafted 2 RB's doesn't mean our running game is going to be improved... we were underpowered on the OL before Bulaga went down; now he's gone, and they're going to insert the smallest OL available in the draft??

Newhouse is now solidly pencilled into the starting lineup at one of the T spots - he can't run block to save his life; and MM has shown no inclination to incorporate any power running into the playbook.

Losing Bulaga and Sherrod isn't TT or MM's fault, but consistently drafting finesse foot shufflers, and refusing to adjust the playbook to improve the run game - is their fault.

No running game and dubious pass blocking, likely mean that Rodgers will be beat to a pulp; and Capers playing as small as possible on Def?? This season is setting up to be a repeat of the SF game only for 16 games.

If Rodgers goes down, we'll be drafting in the top 10 next year for sure. Even if Rodgers stays healthy, we're not going to be able to keep up with the big boys. Rodgers might not make it out of the SF game... this could be a very long season.

[Zool]

Just b/c we drafted 2 RB's doesn't mean our running game is going to be improved... we were underpowered on the OL before Bulaga went down; now he's gone, and they're going to insert the smallest OL available in the draft??

Newhouse is now solidly pencilled into the starting lineup at one of the T spots - he can't run block to save his life; and MM has shown no inclination to incorporate any power running into the playbook.

Losing Bulaga and Sherrod isn't TT or MM's fault, but consistently drafting finesse foot shufflers, and refusing to adjust the playbook to improve the run game - is their fault.

No running game and dubious pass blocking, likely mean that Rodgers will be beat to a pulp; and Capers playing as small as possible on Def?? This season is setting up to be a repeat of the SF game only for 16 games.

If Rodgers goes down, we'll be drafting in the top 10 next year for sure. Even if Rodgers stays healthy, we're not going to be able to keep up with the big boys. Rodgers might not make it out of the SF game... this could be a very long season.

Fuck it. I'm sold. Not watching this year at all. It will be an abject failure.

[Pugger]

A good back can make a line look better than it is. Hell, Cedric Freaking Benson was starting to look competent before he broke his foot. I think Lacy will make defenders pause before pinning their ears back and rushing Rodgers every stinkin' down.

But according to some around here we might as well put Rodgers on IR to protect him, start Vince Young or Graham Harrell and chuck this season as a lost cause. Maybe we can really tank it and get the #1 pick and watch that guy get misused by this coaching staff like the rest of 'em. :roll: This site is full of more Negative Nelllies than any other Packer site out there. Its damn depressing to read some of this shit around here. You all talk like this team is on the same level as the Jets for crying out loud. :lol:

[Freak Out]

Has Tebow signed with anyone yet? :)

[Joemailman]

I'm somewhat more sanguine about this than others.

As Patler pointed out years ago, championship teams are those that overcome adversity. I think Bacteria gets a shot at LT, they know what they have in Newhouse and he's not up to the task.

Another thing to consider is the running game is going to be improved. That alone is going to slow the pass rush. Pound Lacy up Allen's ass a couple of times in the first drive and that will give the opposing D something to think about other than decapitating Rodgers.

This is obviously bad, but it isn't catastrophic.

A voice of reason. Although this is a big setback, I still see the OL being a little better than the one that finished last year. Whoever starts at LT should be no worse than Newhouse was last year. Sitton at LG will be an upgrade over Lang. EDS was an upgrade over Saturday late last year, and should get better with more experience. RG is the one position where I see a likely downgrade. Whoever starts at RT should be no worse than Barclay was as a rookie. There's some low hanging clouds, but the sky is not falling.

[Smeefers]

FUUUUUCK. This sucks.

[packers11]

Wasn't the chiefs offering LT Brandon Albert up for a 2nd rounder in the offseason??? I know T.T. never gives up his precious draft picks, but maybe a 3rd rounder and Alex Green? Wishful thinking?

[wist43]

Fuck it. I'm sold. Not watching this year at all. It will be an abject failure.

There are other things to do...

I like to picket at nuclear power plants - which has the added advantage of being able to make use of green face paint :)

Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are always lurking nearby - always a good time with those fellas. Watching MS-NBC is always fun... let's see, what else is there to do?? :?:

[RashanGary]

back off the ledge, guys. this is brianna beluga going down, not aaron rodgers. Hes a good ol, thats it. We have 3 serviceable OTs still healthy.

[pbmax]

Fuck it. I'm sold. Not watching this year at all. It will be an abject failure.

I would stay away at least 2 years. Because changing the offensive line to power drive blockers is going to be pretty ugly for a while.

From Pete Dougherty of the GBlogPG:


that the team seems inclined to play Bakhtiari at left tackle and keep Marshall Newhouse at right tackle.

[pittstang5]

Wasn't the chiefs offering LT Brandon Albert up for a 2nd rounder in the offseason??? I know T.T. never gives up his precious draft picks, but maybe a 3rd rounder and Alex Green? Wishful thinking?

I know nothing about him, but I'm sure he's better than Newhouse or a rookie.

[red]

lifes not fair

[wist43]

http://www.seahawks.com/videos-photos/videos/Highlight-Seahawks-first-half-sacks/7645fbd8-6648-4482-8193-10db4a8a33c5

Not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6, not 7, yes - 8 sacks in 1 half... that's some ugly stuff.

At least Rodgers survived ;)

[Fritz]

http://www.seahawks.com/videos-photos/videos/Highlight-Seahawks-first-half-sacks/7645fbd8-6648-4482-8193-10db4a8a33c5

Not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6, not 7, yes - 8 sacks in 1 half... that's some ugly stuff.

At least Rodgers survived ;)


Well, okay, I'm still pissed that it happened, but the team has to get over it. No sense in their crying over it.

That they're willing to try Bahkteria at LT suggests they think they can or should at least try to do better than Newhouse - he can be their plan C. That it's Bahkteria and not Sherrod suggests that Sherrod will be PUP'd for the first six weeks and then they'll move him into the mix.

And you, Wist - I root for the Packers to win a SB more than I root for any other team in any other sport. I feel very passionate about this team, this organization. I want them to win for many, many reasons, but I confess that one of them is so you will stop moaning for a month or two.

[Joemailman]

Wasn't the chiefs offering LT Brandon Albert up for a 2nd rounder in the offseason??? I know T.T. never gives up his precious draft picks, but maybe a 3rd rounder and Alex Green? Wishful thinking?

Yes. It's wishful thinking. Albert signed his franchise tag offer of 9.8 million. TT won't trade a high draft pick for a high priced guy who's about to become a free agent.

[wist43]

Well, okay, I'm still pissed that it happened, but the team has to get over it. No sense in their crying over it.

That they're willing to try Bahkteria at LT suggests they think they can or should at least try to do better than Newhouse - he can be their plan C. That it's Bahkteria and not Sherrod suggests that Sherrod will be PUP'd for the first six weeks and then they'll move him into the mix.

And you, Wist - I root for the Packers to win a SB more than I root for any other team in any other sport. I feel very passionate about this team, this organization. I want them to win for many, many reasons, but I confess that one of them is so you will stop moaning for a month or two.

LOL, well, I'm with ya then...

[Harlan Huckleby]

Bahkteria's ascendancy has made me think of the last OT training camp sensation in Green Bay. A young guy got thrust into the starting job when Tauscher crapped out. So I googled jsonline for some comments from summer of 2009:
"Barbre is the best athlete on the offensive line and plays to the whistle." "Good drive blocker." "Consistent and very physical"
The first real game was at Chicago and Allen Barbre got smoked.

I'm just saying that you don't know a damn thing until real game conditions. When Newhouse looked bad last year, it was against awesome athletes bearing down on him for 60 minutes. That's a long time to hold up. You don't see anything like that in preseason. Bahktiari is a rookie who came out of college a year early. Starting him at LT, as some rumors are suggesting is the call, is a real leap of faith.

BTW, the big news is the Packers lost two #1 draft picks at OT. But they also lost the other #4 round OT, J.C. Tretter. And the predictions were that he would be more of a contributor than Bahktiari. TT has been snake bit - hey, maybe TT is the real china doll!

[pittstang5]

All this about Bulaga sucks, but what's the word on Ryan Taylor?

[Joemailman]

I'm just saying that you don't know a damn thing until real game conditions. When Newhouse looked bad last year, it was against awesome athletes bearing down on him for 60 minutes. That's a long time to hold up. You don't see anything like that in preseason. Bahktiari is a rookie who came out of college a year early. Starting him at LT, as some rumors are suggesting is the call, is a real leap of faith.

It's not that much of a gamble though, because if it looks like Bacteria isn't ready, they can always go back to Newhouse. I would have preferred Datko at LT because I think he's more of a natural LT than either Bacteria or Newhouse. Apparently he's not in the discussion, although there's a lot of training camp to go.

[Joemailman]

All this about Bulaga sucks, but what's the word on Ryan Taylor?

http://www.espnmilwaukee.com/common/more.php?m=49&post_id=27341


Ryan Taylor did not suffer a significant knee injury and the Green Bay Packers third-year tight end should be OK in a week or so, an NFL source said Sunday evening.

Taylor was injured during the annual Family Night Scrimmage at Lambeau Field when he was rolled up on while blocking on a punt.

Given his reaction after it happened – angrily throwing his helmet on the sideline – one might have thought that Taylor knew he’d sustained a serious knee injury. Taylor also left the field on a cart, riding in the passenger seat en route to the locker room.

But the source said Taylor should be OK in 7-10 days.

[pittstang5]

It's not that much of a gamble though, because if it looks like Bacteria isn't ready, they can always go back to Newhouse. I would have preferred Datko at LT because I think he's more of a natural LT than either Bacteria or Newhouse. Apparently he's not in the discussion, although there's a lot of training camp to go.

I'm in the Datko house as well. Here's my theory - Datko has not been having a good camp because he has been asked to play everywhere except LT. Why? Because we had Bulaga starting at LT and Newhouse was the backup. Let's face it, before the Bulaga injury, Newhouse was making this team either as the starting RT or top back up to both tackle positions. So, the Packers need interior guys, someone to play both guard positions and/or backup center. EDS can't do it like the two years prior cause he's starting at center. There's only some much room, and guys like EDS have made this team because he can come in and play 3 positions and be ok. That's probably what they were trying to do with Datko - get him to play all three interior positions. Doesn't sound like that is going well.

The Bulaga injury has now changed some things. What I'd like to see, provided TT doesn't bring anyone else in (we know he won't) and the staff is set on Newhouse staying at RT, is have Datko and Bacteria fight it out for the LT spot the next two weeks. Have Barclay focus on RT and RG and Van Roten focus on LG and Center.

Let's see how Datko and Bacteria hold up in practice and the first two pre-season games. If they both suck, you got Newhouse to go back to LT. I just can't see Bacteria starting. I have visions of Barbre all over again.

[digitaldean]

Sounds like RT material to me:

SI_DougFarrar ‏@SI_DougFarrar 52m
Bakhtiari as LT -- good lock-on guy, has some drive power. Not a space player yet -- will struggle at second level. Loses the edge vs. speed

Translation....a turnstile for Jared Allen and the Queens.....

[digitaldean]

Though it does suck royally, it's something MM has to deal with. I don't agree with re-shifting everyone. All the musical chairs crap is what f-ed up the continuity on this line in the first place. Bakhtiari at LT. If he is truly god-awful then put Newhouse (if Sherrod isn't available). We've got less than a month before we play the Niners so we might as well throw in Bakhtiari and see how he does.

[wist43]

It's not that much of a gamble though, because if it looks like Bacteria isn't ready, they can always go back to Newhouse. I would have preferred Datko at LT because I think he's more of a natural LT than either Bacteria or Newhouse. Apparently he's not in the discussion, although there's a lot of training camp to go.

The problem with that Joe, is the reason Newhouse isn't at LT anymore is b/c he sucked there...

That said, I wouldn't even screw around with Bacteria there... not right out of the gate. Put Newhouse over there, keep your middle 3 the same, and let the chips fall where they may at RT.

If MM throws Bacteria out there against Justin Smith and Aldon Smith week 1?? Rodgers is a dead man...

Two things we all know are going to happen in the Niner game, 1)MM will refuse to scale back his down field passing; and 2) he will abandon the run ASAP.

Best we can hope for out of week 1 is that no one else gets hurt, and the score isn't too lopsided.

[Bretsky]

This is soooooo simple - you guys are really dense!!!

Sitton will move to RG, Lang will move to LT, the Persian guy will move to RT, EDS will move to LG, Barclay will move to C - duh!!

From there, of course, it follows that Newhouse is your new Fullback, Datko your new TE, Sherrod is the new Quality Control guy in charge of breaking down tape, and Van Roten has excellent feet and will be tried at CB.

This is sooooo simple and obvious - how is it the rest of you can't see this???? ;)


Sherri is not healthy enough to be a coach :)

[Bretsky]

He's BACK

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://firewhenreadypottery.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/huge-marshmallow-bite.jpg&imgrefurl=http://firewhenreadypottery.com/2011/06/smore-smores-please/&h=675&w=900&sz=222&tbnid=_oz4ZU7ttOj97M:&tbnh=91&tbnw=121&zoom=1&usg=__fGLKVtCJkzYx0m385wHglizfqyo=&docid=kLeTy4xPn2IRUM&sa=X&ei=aWIAUteFD8KiyAHi8IH4Bw&ved=0CDkQ9QEwAw&dur=0

[Bossman641]

Just b/c we drafted 2 RB's doesn't mean our running game is going to be improved... we were underpowered on the OL before Bulaga went down; now he's gone, and they're going to insert the smallest OL available in the draft??

Newhouse is now solidly pencilled into the starting lineup at one of the T spots - he can't run block to save his life; and MM has shown no inclination to incorporate any power running into the playbook.

Losing Bulaga and Sherrod isn't TT or MM's fault, but consistently drafting finesse foot shufflers, and refusing to adjust the playbook to improve the run game - is their fault.

No running game and dubious pass blocking, likely mean that Rodgers will be beat to a pulp; and Capers playing as small as possible on Def?? This season is setting up to be a repeat of the SF game only for 16 games.

If Rodgers goes down, we'll be drafting in the top 10 next year for sure. Even if Rodgers stays healthy, we're not going to be able to keep up with the big boys. Rodgers might not make it out of the SF game... this could be a very long season.

As much as I want top agree with things you say, you lose all credibility saying we will pick in the top ten

[Guiness]

As much as I want top agree with things you say, you lose all credibility saying we will pick in the top ten

Really? I can easily envision a scenario where it easily happens, and I'll go on record as saying this is the first time I agree with the Skeptical One (skeptical my ass, cynical and sardonic is more like it!). Starting a rookie LT, one of the Smith's gets by him and ends Rodger's season...the recently acquired VY starts 15 games.

I just hope MM valuates Bakhtiari correctly, and makes the right decision over whether or not he should be started.

[bobblehead]

http://www.seahawks.com/videos-photos/videos/Highlight-Seahawks-first-half-sacks/7645fbd8-6648-4482-8193-10db4a8a33c5

Not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6, not 7, yes - 8 sacks in 1 half... that's some ugly stuff.

At least Rodgers survived ;)

that was pretty much Bulaga's worst game as a pro iirc. To top it off it took MM until the second half to remember that handoffs were allowed.

[bobblehead]

I don't understand all the love for Datko. He couldn't get on the roster over Van Roten last year. He is big, yes. He is not winning one on ones in camp though. He is not effective. Pretty much, nothing about him says he can play LT in this league.

Again, shuffling guys is not that big of a deal as many make it out to be. My prediction is that Josh fucking sitton ends up playing LT for us this season. Why?? He is our best lineman and he can easily switch positions as he has before.

[bobblehead]

PS...screw donald driver, does anyone know if the bubble gum infused into Cliftons knees is still holding up??

[RashanGary]

Datko has some very unusual circumstances surrounding him. I'm curious to see what he has. I'm going to hold off judgement until the last preseason game, and even then, just being decent at so many positions would give me enough hope to want to see more of him.

[Pugger]

I'm in the Datko house as well. Here's my theory - Datko has not been having a good camp because he has been asked to play everywhere except LT. Why? Because we had Bulaga starting at LT and Newhouse was the backup. Let's face it, before the Bulaga injury, Newhouse was making this team either as the starting RT or top back up to both tackle positions. So, the Packers need interior guys, someone to play both guard positions and/or backup center. EDS can't do it like the two years prior cause he's starting at center. There's only some much room, and guys like EDS have made this team because he can come in and play 3 positions and be ok. That's probably what they were trying to do with Datko - get him to play all three interior positions. Doesn't sound like that is going well.

The Bulaga injury has now changed some things. What I'd like to see, provided TT doesn't bring anyone else in (we know he won't) and the staff is set on Newhouse staying at RT, is have Datko and Bacteria fight it out for the LT spot the next two weeks. Have Barclay focus on RT and RG and Van Roten focus on LG and Center.

Let's see how Datko and Bacteria hold up in practice and the first two pre-season games. If they both suck, you got Newhouse to go back to LT. I just can't see Bacteria starting. I have visions of Barbre all over again.

I too believe the main reason Datko has struggled this summer is he is no guard. Somebody's gotta tell MM and Campen you can't shove a round peg into a square hole. Before he got hurt at FSU some felt he'd be a 2nd rounder.

[gbgary]

couldn't believe the news. I'm not ready to panic yet though. that can change if the ol health deteriorates. i've got a feeling balaclava is going to step up surprise everyone.

[Joemailman]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-have-a-shining-new-replacement-in-david-bakhtiari-b9969070z1-218460911.html

McGinn with an upbeat, "the sky is not falling article. That's what I like about McGinn. He tries to offer a different perspective on things. And he's often right.

[pittstang5]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-have-a-shining-new-replacement-in-david-bakhtiari-b9969070z1-218460911.html

McGinn with an upbeat, "the sky is not falling article. That's what I like about McGinn. He tries to offer a different perspective on things. And he's often right.

I read that article too. Made me feel a little better, but maybe that's McGinn's job. We can only wait and see. Like most have said, at least they have about a month to get this fixed.

We're all tired of the o-line woes, year after year. The shuffling of lineman in the off-season gave a very small sense of hope, but now, we're just right back to where we have been.

[Joemailman]

The "winner" due to the Bulaga injury (and continued absence of Sherrod) is probably Greg Van Roten. I thought he might be the odd man out this year, but with Barclay now probably taking more reps at Tackle, his role should become more prominent. The top 8 now are probably EDS, Lang, Sitton, Van Roten, Bakhtiari, Datko, Newhouse and Barclay. They might keep 9 if Sherrod is on the roster.

[3irty1]

Losing Bulaga sucks pretty hard but what REALLY sucks is when the next tackle goes down. Season hasn't even started yet. We'll probably get to see a Bandaid on top of a bandaid on top of a premium line position at some point.

[wist43]

As much as I want top agree with things you say, you lose all credibility saying we will pick in the top ten

Without Rodgers, we're better than a bottom 10 team??

We're a QB driven team - so much so that even our defense is built, to whatever extent, on the assumption that our offense is going to get us off to an early and big lead; hence, no need to play run defense, right??

What does this team look like with Graham Harrell, BJ Coleman, or Vince Young under center??

We can't run the ball, we can't stop the run, and our defense is prone to mind-numbing breakdowns that send Pop Warner turning over in his grave.

No, make no mistake - if Rodgers went down week 1, I don't see any way we could even go 8-8.

[Joemailman]

I think most NFL teams are in danger of being bottom 10 if they lose their starting QB for an extended period of time.

[wist43]

I think most NFL teams are in danger of being bottom 10 if they lose their starting QB for an extended period of time.

I agree... don't know why my saying that would send the homers into a tizzy.

Unless they truly believe that every player that dons the G&G really is a HOF'er.

Rodgers for the Packers, even moreso than QB's for other teams, masks a lot of our shortcomings - even as I mentioned on defense. Take Rodgers out of the equation, and you have a very pedestrian roster, with a lot of problems on the OL and defense.

The rest of the roster would be exposed for what it is if Rodgers went down - and MM wouldn't be able to coach and gameplan his way around it, there simply isn't enough talent in other areas of the roster.

[Bossman641]

Without Rodgers, we're better than a bottom 10 team??

We're a QB driven team - so much so that even our defense is built, to whatever extent, on the assumption that our offense is going to get us off to an early and big lead; hence, no need to play run defense, right??

What does this team look like with Graham Harrell, BJ Coleman, or Vince Young under center??

We can't run the ball, we can't stop the run, and our defense is prone to mind-numbing breakdowns that send Pop Warner turning over in his grave.

No, make no mistake - if Rodgers went down week 1, I don't see any way we could even go 8-8.

Sorry, my mistake reading your post. I thought you had said it was a foregone conclusion Rodgers was going to get injured and we'd be drafting in the top ten. I agree with you that if Rodgers were to go down week 1 we'd be picking top 10..but I think that's true for every team in the league as well.

[denverYooper]

Another take on Bakhitiari from Doug Farrar: http://nfl.si.com/2013/08/05/the-all-22-rookie-david-bakhtiari-could-surprise-as-packers-emergency-left-tackle/

Interesting quote:


As Greg Cosell of NFL Films and ESPN’s NFL Matchup recently told me, Bakhtiari plays shorter than he is – he’s 6-foot-4 and 300 pounds, but he comes off the ball like a 6-foot-2 guy, because he tends to bend at the waist at times. However, I would also say that he plays heavier than he is – because he has an excellent understanding of leverage, he’s able to move people in ways you’d expect of a man 25 pounds heavier.

[hoosier]

Another take on Bakhitiari from Doug Farrar: http://nfl.si.com/2013/08/05/the-all-22-rookie-david-bakhtiari-could-surprise-as-packers-emergency-left-tackle/

Interesting quote:
As Greg Cosell of NFL Films and ESPN’s NFL Matchup recently told me, Bakhtiari plays shorter than he is – he’s 6-foot-4 and 300 pounds, but he comes off the ball like a 6-foot-2 guy, because he tends to bend at the waist at times. However, I would also say that he plays heavier than he is – because he has an excellent understanding of leverage, he’s able to move people in ways you’d expect of a man 25 pounds heavier.

Translation: looks like Manute Bol, plays like Robert "Tractor" Traylor.

[pbmax]

I'm just saying that you don't know a damn thing until real game conditions.

Its entirely possible I posted otherwise in 2009 because I tend to root for the best athletes to outright win positions as it helps the overall talent level of the team (see Sherrod Derek, or McMillan, Jerome).

But as I recall, Barbre had trouble all camp long and in preseason too. His best practices were always in shorts.

The one that got away is Giacomini, who starts and apparently plays well for the Seahawks at RT.

[pbmax]

I read that article too. Made me feel a little better, but maybe that's McGinn's job. We can only wait and see. Like most have said, at least they have about a month to get this fixed.

We're all tired of the o-line woes, year after year. The shuffling of lineman in the off-season gave a very small sense of hope, but now, we're just right back to where we have been.

Credit to you pitt, you called it that the Bulaga injury would reshuffle players to their strengths, at least Datko. But it was even better in some ways.

Barclay got some first team reps at RT (still played C and G), Datko got 2nd team reps at LT and GVR was the primary backup center.

[Joemailman]

MM says no final decision made yet on Bulaga. Still waiting for diagnosis.

Jordy out rest of TC. Hope to have him for start of season. Had procedure done on his knee.

[Joemailman]

Its entirely possible I posted otherwise in 2009 because I tend to root for the best athletes to outright win positions as it helps the overall talent level of the team (see Sherrod Derek, or McMillan, Jerome).

But as I recall, Barbre had trouble all camp long and in preseason too. His best practices were always in shorts.

The one that got away is Giacomini, who starts and apparently plays well for the Seahawks at RT.

Right. My recollection is that Barbre was basically anointed the starting RT based on OTA's. His struggles in preseason were somewhat overshadowed by Rodgers' lights out performance in preseason games. I remember being surprised that they gave up on Giaco as early as they did.

[Zool]

Translation: looks like Manute Bol, plays like Robert "Tractor" Traylor.

All Manute Bol references need to be bumped

[Smidgeon]

Time to resurrect the FUCK!!!! thread.

I miss the days of the Barnett ACL tear thread...

[George Cumby]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-have-a-shining-new-replacement-in-david-bakhtiari-b9969070z1-218460911.html

McGinn with an upbeat, "the sky is not falling article. That's what I like about McGinn. He tries to offer a different perspective on things. And he's often right.

WTF is wrong with McGinn?

He's all happy and shit.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Right. My recollection is that Barbre was basically anointed the starting RT based on OTA's. His struggles in preseason were somewhat overshadowed by Rodgers' lights out

Memories are selective. I remember much Barbre love prior to the 2009 season, glowing comments from Larry McCarren are burned in my memory. I also recall that Newhouse was highly regarded during his second training camp, 2011.

When I searched jsonline for positive comments about Barbre in summer of 2009, I did not find any negative stuff. MM did call Barbre his most athletic offensive lineman, etc.

Just for purposes of mischief, I decided to see what JoeMailman said about Babre in 2009.
3rd-Year-Players-Who-Has-Break-Out-Season? (http://packerrats.com/showthread.php?17135-3rd-Year-Players-Who-Has-Break-Out-Season)
"For me it's Justin Harrell. If he can stay healthy, and he's healthy now, he has the perfect skill set for the LDE position. A close second would be Allen Barbre. Opportunity knocks."

[Harlan Huckleby]

Reading down a little farther, we see pbmax:
"I think Williams broke out last season. I think Harrell could, but you can't count on it, especially not when its a back that might crop up him. Barbre has the best chance to make a name for himself this year."

heee heee heeee
Now, these were early summer predictions, not completely relevant, but grist for my mill.

[pbmax]

Except that summer and training camp are not the same thing. All the Barbre praise is prior to camp. His struggles immediately returned in camp and preseason. Bakhtiari has already passed a significant hurdle Barbre did not. He has impressed in camp with pads, hitting and everything. Next test is live opposition.

The thread you quote from started June 20th. Camp starts in late July. Also, Barbre finished fourth in the poll behind Harrell, James Jones and Tramon Williams. Barbre was 2 votes ahead of Brandon Jackson.

[Joemailman]

Let the record show that the person bumping other people's predictions for his amusement did not offer any predictions himself.

[bobblehead]

Another take on Bakhitiari from Doug Farrar: http://nfl.si.com/2013/08/05/the-all-22-rookie-david-bakhtiari-could-surprise-as-packers-emergency-left-tackle/

Interesting quote:

That is an awesome trait in a LG or C, not so much in a LT. If he starts at LT, we have to run early and often to give him a fair chance to succeed. Anyone taking action on that happening?

[bobblehead]

Its entirely possible I posted otherwise in 2009 because I tend to root for the best athletes to outright win positions as it helps the overall talent level of the team (see Sherrod Derek, or McMillan, Jerome).

But as I recall, Barbre had trouble all camp long and in preseason too. His best practices were always in shorts.

The one that got away is Giacomini, who starts and apparently plays well for the Seahawks at RT.

Rewatched the Seattle/Atlanta game. We lost a keeper. He simply took too long to adjust. Very sad for us....especially at this moment.

[bobblehead]

Memories are selective. I remember much Barbre love prior to the 2009 season, glowing comments from Larry McCarren are burned in my memory. I also recall that Newhouse was highly regarded during his second training camp, 2011.

When I searched jsonline for positive comments about Barbre in summer of 2009, I did not find any negative stuff. MM did call Barbre his most athletic offensive lineman, etc.

Just for purposes of mischief, I decided to see what JoeMailman said about Babre in 2009.
3rd-Year-Players-Who-Has-Break-Out-Season? (http://packerrats.com/showthread.php?17135-3rd-Year-Players-Who-Has-Break-Out-Season)
"For me it's Justin Harrell. If he can stay healthy, and he's healthy now, he has the perfect skill set for the LDE position. A close second would be Allen Barbre. Opportunity knocks."

Thank God you didn't find any of my embarrassing posts to bump. I was full on the Babre bandwagon....not a proud moment. Sort of like that time in Thailand....nm, getting nightmares.

[bobblehead]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-have-a-shining-new-replacement-in-david-bakhtiari-b9969070z1-218460911.html

McGinn with an upbeat, "the sky is not falling article. That's what I like about McGinn. He tries to offer a different perspective on things. And he's often right.

"Time after time, the rookie tried to get the last shove in. That might not be important in the outcome of a play, but over time a player that seeks to establish a level of physical superiority eventually will win out."

This gives me hope. Other than Lang, we don't have a guy who does this. Maybe sitton a bit, but not like guys in SF do it. I like battlers in my OL. I haven't seen any of the young guys yet, but this gives me some hope.

[pittstang5]

Rewatched the Seattle/Atlanta game. We lost a keeper. He simply took too long to adjust. Very sad for us....especially at this moment.

Wasn't Giacomini hurt alot when he was here?

[Patler]

Except that summer and training camp are not the same thing. All the Barbre praise is prior to camp. His struggles immediately returned in camp and preseason. Bakhtiari has already passed a significant hurdle Barbre did not. He has impressed in camp with pads, hitting and everything. Next test is live opposition.

The thread you quote from started June 20th. Camp starts in late July. Also, Barbre finished fourth in the poll behind Harrell, James Jones and Tramon Williams. Barbre was 2 votes ahead of Brandon Jackson.

I think we went through that with Barbre a couple years. He is tremendously athletic for an O-lineman. In college, he was a gunner on their punt team. You have to have hope for a guy like that during the off season and during practice in shorts. As I recall, he looked bad each time as soon as the pads went on, yet the one year they stubbornly kept him as the starter hoping the light would turn on. It didn't and after a couple games, he was out of the lineup.

[Patler]

Wasn't Giacomini hurt alot when he was here?

I don't think so. Just very, very raw. The first year he was on the 53 man roster, but inactive every game. He was on the practice squad his second year. Third year he was again on the practice squad after the Packers outbid the Vikings for him at the end of TC, but a short time later Seattle signed him to their 53 man roster.

It really took the guy until his 4th season before he came around.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Except that summer and training camp are not the same thing. All the Barbre praise is prior to camp.
Ya, except Barbre wasn't a rookie, he was a third year player who had other preseasons, and even some spot duty in real games already.

You might be correct that Barbre had begun to emit a suspicious odor in the last two preseason games, I just don't remember. What I do know is that MM had high praise after two preseason games, and I remember Larry McCarren loving him at some stage of preseason.

I made the obviously true point that you can't tell how good offensive linemen are until they have to hold-up for 60 minutes in real games. Especially OT's who have to stick with speed rushers for 50 plays. When Newhouse sucked in real games, he might have actually sucked for only a handful of plays.
The high praise that Barbre and Newhouse got before they were full-time starters are good examples.

BTW, hard to believe but Newhouse is still only 24 years old. Perhaps the 2012 season can be written-off as a youthful indiscretion. I think he has good feet so will develop into a good pass blocker. I remember him real weak at run blocking, he didn't stick with the guy, that is more of a question. Maybe that can be improved.

[RashanGary]

HH,

I don't think Marshall Newhouse has ever gotten anything but disgust from media and fans alike. There are a few of us who think where he came from, and his age, there should be more of an expected learning curve, but just about everyone agrees he sucks and sucked from day 1.

He was a 21 year old rookie, coming from a school that doesn't coach OL they way they do in the NFL. He had a long way to go. He was good enough to be better than the rest of the garbage they've had, but not good enough for people to be happy with him.

It looks like he's changed his body composition this offseason. He's starting to look like an NFL OL. I have a hunch we haven't seen the best of him. This is the year I think we see the best of him. If he's not good this year, I give up, but I do think he's been getting better since his first time on the field and it hasn't stopped yet. He's a couple pass plays per game against elite players and some run game improvement away from being solid.

[pbmax]

That is an awesome trait in a LG or C, not so much in a LT. If he starts at LT, we have to run early and often to give him a fair chance to succeed. Anyone taking action on that happening?

Yes. 16th in the League in running attempts with one of the poorest run games in the League. You could argue McCarthy last year was way too fond of running the ball.

And a good majority of those carries happened early with the score close or with an early lead. If the concern with Bach is pass protecting, expect more of the same run to protect Rodgers play calls.

[Upnorth]

Crappy,

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id/58934/bulaga-to-undergo-season-ending-surgery

[wist43]

Yes. 16th in the League in running attempts with one of the poorest run games in the League. You could argue McCarthy last year was way too fond of running the ball.

And a good majority of those carries happened early with the score close or with an early lead. If the concern with Bach is pass protecting, expect more of the same run to protect Rodgers play calls.

We've played around with these stats before...

To me, if you want to evaluate the run game more honestly, you have to look at rushing attempts by RB's, and necessarily have to take out QB scrambles and WR runs.

We may have been 16th in rushing attempts, but consider a comparison to San Diego - who has Philip Rivers limping around behind the LOS. They finished 27th in rushing attempts.

Take out their non-RB attempts, i.e. Rivers had 27 atts, and couple of WR's had a few attemts... their RB attempts = 378.

Take out Rodgers scrambles (54), and the other non-RB attempts... and our RB attempts = 365.

To me, the evaluation of the running game is how did your team perform when handing the ball to your principle RB's?? There are teams where you would throw that out, i.e. SF and Wash. most notably - but when we're talking about the running game, we should be talking about how our team performs with our RB's toting the rock.

Our RB's collectively averaged 3.5 yds/carry... take out our non-RB carries, and our rushing attempts relative to the rest of the league drop us quite a bit - and better indicator of the fact that we simply cannot run the football.

[Pugger]

"Time after time, the rookie tried to get the last shove in. That might not be important in the outcome of a play, but over time a player that seeks to establish a level of physical superiority eventually will win out."

This gives me hope. Other than Lang, we don't have a guy who does this. Maybe sitton a bit, but not like guys in SF do it. I like battlers in my OL. I haven't seen any of the young guys yet, but this gives me some hope.

From what I hear Sitton doesn't back down to anyone. EDS might be like that too.

[pbmax]

Non Primary QB Rushing Statistics (ARI, PHI, KAN, SFO and JAX all have multiple QBs due to partial seasons-I did not combine QBs if a single starter got past 10 starts)

Non starting QBs (Tebow) and WR (Cobb) runs are counted because they are called runs

If you want to skip the fun, GB is 18th in League Rank. San Diego does leap frog them as wist helpfully points out.


Rushing Rushing Rushing Rushing QB Non-QB
Rk Tm Year G W L T W-L% Att Yds Y/A TD Rush Att
1 NWE 2012 16 12 4 0 0.75 523 2184 4.18 25 23 500
2 HOU 2012 16 12 4 0 0.75 508 2123 4.18 19 21 487
3 NYJ 2012 16 6 10 0 0.375 494 1896 3.84 12 22 472
4 DEN 2012 16 13 3 0 0.813 481 1832 3.81 12 23 458
5 KAN 2012 16 2 14 0 0.125 500 2395 4.79 9 46 454
6 SEA 2012 16 11 5 0 0.688 536 2579 4.81 16 94 442
7 CHI 2012 16 10 6 0 0.625 470 1970 4.19 11 41 429
8 MIN 2012 16 10 6 0 0.625 486 2634 5.42 16 60 426
9 BAL 2012 16 10 6 0 0.625 444 1901 4.28 17 32 412
10 WAS 2012 16 10 6 0 0.625 519 2709 5.22 22 120 399
11 SFO 2012 16 11 4 1 0.719 492 2491 5.06 17 94 398
12 BUF 2012 16 6 10 0 0.375 442 2217 5.02 12 48 394
13 MIA 2012 16 7 9 0 0.438 440 1802 4.1 15 49 391
14 NYG 2012 16 9 7 0 0.563 409 1862 4.55 18 20 389
15 PIT 2012 16 8 8 0 0.5 412 1537 3.73 8 26 386
16 SDG 2012 16 7 9 0 0.438 411 1461 3.55 4 27 384
17 CIN 2012 16 10 6 0 0.625 430 1745 4.06 11 47 383
18 GNB 2012 16 11 5 0 0.688 433 1702 3.93 9 54 379
19 IND 2012 16 11 5 0 0.688 440 1671 3.8 11 62 378
20 TAM 2012 16 7 9 0 0.438 416 1837 4.42 13 39 377
21 STL 2012 16 7 8 1 0.469 410 1714 4.18 5 37 373
22 CLE 2012 16 5 11 0 0.313 396 1593 4.02 12 27 369
23 OAK 2012 16 4 12 0 0.25 376 1420 3.78 4 18 358
24 DET 2012 16 4 12 0 0.25 391 1613 4.13 17 35 356
25 NOR 2012 16 7 9 0 0.438 370 1577 4.26 10 15 355
26 ATL 2012 16 13 3 0 0.813 378 1397 3.7 12 34 344
27 PHI 2012 16 4 12 0 0.25 413 1874 4.54 10 73 340
28 TEN 2012 16 6 10 0 0.375 378 1687 4.46 10 41 337
29 CAR 2012 16 7 9 0 0.438 462 2088 4.52 21 127 335
30 ARI 2012 16 5 11 0 0.313 352 1204 3.42 10 24 328
31 DAL 2012 16 8 8 0 0.5 355 1265 3.56 8 30 325
32 JAX 2012 16 2 14 0 0.125 358 1369 3.82 5 37 321

[Pugger]

Loved what Daniels said about Bak here:

“The first day I did go against him and he rolled me back about 6 yards,” defensive end Mike Daniels told Bob McGinn of the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel about Bakhtiari’s drive-blocking. “He’s a long guy. Strong kid. You can tell he’s been well-coached. He reminds me of Sitton. He’s got that real nice, cool personality, but when he gets on the field he turns into a psychopath.”

[wist43]

Non Primary QB Rushing Statistics (ARI, PHI, KAN, SFO and JAX all have multiple QBs due to partial seasons-I did not combine QBs if a single starter got past 10 starts)

Non starting QBs (Tebow) and WR (Cobb) runs are counted because they are called runs

If you want to skip the fun, GB is 18th in League Rank. San Diego does leap frog them as wist helpfully points out.


Rushing Rushing Rushing Rushing QB Non-QB
Rk Tm Year G W L T W-L% Att Yds Y/A TD Rush Att
1 NWE 2012 16 12 4 0 0.75 523 2184 4.18 25 23 500
2 HOU 2012 16 12 4 0 0.75 508 2123 4.18 19 21 487
3 NYJ 2012 16 6 10 0 0.375 494 1896 3.84 12 22 472
4 DEN 2012 16 13 3 0 0.813 481 1832 3.81 12 23 458
5 KAN 2012 16 2 14 0 0.125 500 2395 4.79 9 46 454
6 SEA 2012 16 11 5 0 0.688 536 2579 4.81 16 94 442
7 CHI 2012 16 10 6 0 0.625 470 1970 4.19 11 41 429
8 MIN 2012 16 10 6 0 0.625 486 2634 5.42 16 60 426
9 BAL 2012 16 10 6 0 0.625 444 1901 4.28 17 32 412
10 WAS 2012 16 10 6 0 0.625 519 2709 5.22 22 120 399
11 SFO 2012 16 11 4 1 0.719 492 2491 5.06 17 94 398
12 BUF 2012 16 6 10 0 0.375 442 2217 5.02 12 48 394
13 MIA 2012 16 7 9 0 0.438 440 1802 4.1 15 49 391
14 NYG 2012 16 9 7 0 0.563 409 1862 4.55 18 20 389
15 PIT 2012 16 8 8 0 0.5 412 1537 3.73 8 26 386
16 SDG 2012 16 7 9 0 0.438 411 1461 3.55 4 27 384
17 CIN 2012 16 10 6 0 0.625 430 1745 4.06 11 47 383
18 GNB 2012 16 11 5 0 0.688 433 1702 3.93 9 54 379
19 IND 2012 16 11 5 0 0.688 440 1671 3.8 11 62 378
20 TAM 2012 16 7 9 0 0.438 416 1837 4.42 13 39 377
21 STL 2012 16 7 8 1 0.469 410 1714 4.18 5 37 373
22 CLE 2012 16 5 11 0 0.313 396 1593 4.02 12 27 369
23 OAK 2012 16 4 12 0 0.25 376 1420 3.78 4 18 358
24 DET 2012 16 4 12 0 0.25 391 1613 4.13 17 35 356
25 NOR 2012 16 7 9 0 0.438 370 1577 4.26 10 15 355
26 ATL 2012 16 13 3 0 0.813 378 1397 3.7 12 34 344
27 PHI 2012 16 4 12 0 0.25 413 1874 4.54 10 73 340
28 TEN 2012 16 6 10 0 0.375 378 1687 4.46 10 41 337
29 CAR 2012 16 7 9 0 0.438 462 2088 4.52 21 127 335
30 ARI 2012 16 5 11 0 0.313 352 1204 3.42 10 24 328
31 DAL 2012 16 8 8 0 0.5 355 1265 3.56 8 30 325
32 JAX 2012 16 2 14 0 0.125 358 1369 3.82 5 37 321

I'd prefer to look strictly at RB's - and throw out the running QB teams... if you throw out their starting QB stats, their rushing attempts would drop disproportionately.

I would almost throw NE out as well just b/c they're so gimmicky - and I, as should everyone, hate Belichick, lol...

Anyway, by looking at just RB's - it gives a better indicator of what kind of shape a teams actual running game is in. The Packers running game is abysmal - we are a passing team first and foremost. It is what it is...

Everyone seems to be pinning their hopes on a lightweight rookie and the Marshmellow reshaping his body... they're going to be pretty disappointed I fear.

[Upnorth]

I'd prefer to look strictly at RB's - and throw out the running QB teams... if you throw out their starting QB stats, their rushing attempts would drop disproportionately.

I would almost throw NE out as well just b/c they're so gimmicky - and I, as should everyone, hate Belichick, lol...

Anyway, by looking at just RB's - it gives a better indicator of what kind of shape a teams actual running game is in. The Packers running game is abysmal - we are a passing team first and foremost. It is what it is...

Everyone seems to be pinning their hopes on a lightweight rookie and the Marshmellow reshaping his body... they're going to be pretty disappointed I fear.

We are a passing team first and foremost, and we should be as we have the most efficient passing game in the league. Having a more efficient running game would be great, but if we run as effectivley as last year I hope we pass more. The run game would be a great compliment but not a necessity.

[bobblehead]

Yes. 16th in the League in running attempts with one of the poorest run games in the League. You could argue McCarthy last year was way too fond of running the ball.

And a good majority of those carries happened early with the score close or with an early lead. If the concern with Bach is pass protecting, expect more of the same run to protect Rodgers play calls.

There we go with statistics again. Where did we rank in % of plays called being runs? How about the first half of the Seattle game when ARod was getting hammered. How about in SF?

I just rewatched SF vs. Atl, and even down 2 scores in the second half they kept calling running plays. MM calls them at times, but at other times he suspiciously forgets its allowed.

I'm not saying I want to be the vikings, we have rodgers and should pass plenty. I just want enough effective running to keep a D honest.

I'm not going to continually post "579" but I will say this. We ran Harris 11 times and Cobb 2 times against SF. Of the 11 carries Harris had 5 on our 2nd offensive possession in the first quarter (TD btw). 4 more in the second Quarter. He ran it twice in the first 3 plays of the second half....we never saw him again. We did run Cobb twice on the drive that tied the game at 24-24.

NOw, from 8+ minutes left in the 3rd quarter how many times do you gather we called a running play in that game. A game where we were running effectively. A game that was tied and then still within a score for awhile?

ZERO. We called all passes. Two consecutive drives we put the D RIGHT back onto the field and they got torched. You want to bitch at dom for not adjusting, the guy didn't even have time to spray on a fresh layer.

You must run the ball effectively. The minute we stopped, Rodgers was running for his life and the game was over. SF didn't do that against atlanta and they came back and won.

[bobblehead]

We've played around with these stats before...

To me, if you want to evaluate the run game more honestly, you have to look at rushing attempts by RB's, and necessarily have to take out QB scrambles and WR runs.

We may have been 16th in rushing attempts, but consider a comparison to San Diego - who has Philip Rivers limping around behind the LOS. They finished 27th in rushing attempts.

Take out their non-RB attempts, i.e. Rivers had 27 atts, and couple of WR's had a few attemts... their RB attempts = 378.

Take out Rodgers scrambles (54), and the other non-RB attempts... and our RB attempts = 365.

To me, the evaluation of the running game is how did your team perform when handing the ball to your principle RB's?? There are teams where you would throw that out, i.e. SF and Wash. most notably - but when we're talking about the running game, we should be talking about how our team performs with our RB's toting the rock.

Our RB's collectively averaged 3.5 yds/carry... take out our non-RB carries, and our rushing attempts relative to the rest of the league drop us quite a bit - and better indicator of the fact that we simply cannot run the football.

Yea, what he said.

[King Friday]

The run game is absolutely necessary. We won the Super Bowl because the running game showed signs of life that teams had to respect during that postseason. We haven't looked the same against elite competition since, because we are completely one-dimensional. It allows defenses to rush Rodgers far too aggressively and was ultimately why the offense seemed to take a step back last year.

We don't need a 2,000 yard rusher. But not having a 500 yard rusher is a complete joke. It is a necessity for this team to protect Rodgers by finding a way to utilize the running game far more effectively in 2013. 3rd and 3 should not be an automatic passing down...even for our elite aerial attack. The sad fact is that 3rd and 1 was a passing down all of last season. Keep that up and the franchise QB will end up in the hospital. That is why a running game IS a necessity. It is not a necessity to have an elite running game, but at least HAVING one is unless we want to continually come up short to more physical teams as the Patriots have proven over the last 3-4 years.

[bobblehead]

From what I hear Sitton doesn't back down to anyone. EDS might be like that too.

Sitton is good, but he isn't a play past the whistle guy. EDS is good at untying shoes and he battles, but is limited physically. Lang is nasty. He enjoys it.

[pbmax]

I'd prefer to look strictly at RB's - and throw out the running QB teams... if you throw out their starting QB stats, their rushing attempts would drop disproportionately.

I would almost throw NE out as well just b/c they're so gimmicky - and I, as should everyone, hate Belichick, lol...

snipped

This list is as close a look at strictly RB carries as you can get unless you are going to do a hand count by roster. And it doesn't count if you do it for the Packers and one other team and say See? PROOF! :lol:

This list, which has no Starting QB runs in it (no RGIII, no Wilson, no Luck, no CK), simply doesn't show what you want it to show.

Please remember, my point is not that the Packers running game was good. It wasn't, though it did uptick late in the season with Harris. My point, the post I initially responded to, was that concern about McCarthy's willingness to run is overstated. Its not his preferred method, but he will do it if he thinks he needs to (2012) or can be productive (Grant).

[pbmax]

Yea, what he said.

Problem is, what he said is not what I was trying to argue against. I am responding to concern that McCarthy won't run.

I am not arguing with wist or you that 2012 was a good running game.

Also, you cannot subtract carries from the Packers and the do the same for one other team and claim its meaningful.

[pbmax]

They went with one back and empty backfield formations as part of their game plan versus the Seahawks because they thought they could pass at will on their nickel and dime. Rodgers, despite 8 sacks, was 12/15 for 86 yards and a 90 rating in the first half. McCarthy had it half right. He could pass on them. The part he did not see was being unable to block their pass rush with 5 or six. The Seahawks also probably did a better than anticipated job on the outside with Nelson and Jones.

One of McCarthy's traits is that he sticks with his plan and at times it seems like he does this for too long. He does this for a good reason and that is a panicked mid-half adjustment to the game plan is less likely to be successful that a fully thought out, week long plan. Changing it based on the first few series is risky and it should depend on seeing something you did not anticipate during the week.

The only way to answer this question would be to pump sodium pentathol into the players and coaches and find out whether they simply overrun by superior force or that it a poor game plan matchup with the Hawks. My money is superior force. Was game plan a pipe dream? In retrospect, probably. I am not sure McCarthy came to full grips with their protection problems until after this game. Newhouse at LT was never situated. Saturday was not replaced until more than halfway through the season. And how you anticipate Bryan Bulaga having about his poorest game as a pro is beyond me.

Faced with the evidence you cite, he switched plans and ran in the second half. McCarthy doesn't game plan for balance, he game plans to attack the defense. When he is wrong, he is very wrong. But the price of his miscalculation here was a 7 point deficit. People in the game day thread are always screaming there are no adjustments. this game is proof there are and it was to run more. You could argue that the adjustment should have come in the middle of the first half, but there are sounds reasons to wait til halftime when the deficit is small.

The running plan in the Seahawks game doesn't bother me.


San Fran I am more inclined to agree, even though pressure was less an issue here than 1st half Seattle. Mainly, running would have possibly reduced the number of SF possessions in the second half. Given the fold job the defense was doing, this would directly help.

Shotgun and no huddle hurt the Packers in the second half here. No huddle might have helped produce one score and other than two good Cobb carries, didn't do much else. I will be curious to see of McCarthy sticks with the run if they fall behind to SF again.

[bobblehead]

I partly agree. I am not one who thinks you should abandon the game plan, and I don't think MM fails to adjust. I think he is delusional in what he asks of his OL. In Seattle he didn't run enough to keep the D honest, so YES, I think predicting Bulaga having a terrible game was reasonable.

Like Holmgren, MM prefers to pass. When he is frustrated he doesn't call running plays. You MUST run the ball enough to keep the D honest even if you aren't good at it.

We can argue circles about certain games and what happened, and cite stats, but my lying eyes tell me that MM would rather pass and quite often hangs to OL out to dry by letting an opposing D pin back the ears. I tend to believe my lying eyes.

[pbmax]

When he is frustrated he doesn't call running plays.

This I agree with. I think his normal fall back plan is to pass and attack weakness in the coverage. I think Rodgers fully buys into this, especially deep, which can lead to QB hits.

He has admitted a time or two that he did give up on the run too early. I think overall, his patience with the run game has been demonstrated by both Grant's success and his patience with injury and Harris last year.

But inside a game, he does get away from it. And I don't think he thinks he should HAVE to run just to protect his QB. He asks quite a lot of his line.

[wist43]

Problem is, what he said is not what I was trying to argue against. I am responding to concern that McCarthy won't run.

I am not arguing with wist or you that 2012 was a good running game.

I think MM would run more if it were effective - the problem with McCarthy is he is committed to 3 running plays, student body left, right, middle. The only variation on those 3 plays is formation.

Defenses don't have to respect our running game at all - afterall, they are only tasked with stopping 3 plays. Combine that with a weak run blocking OL, no run blocking TE's or FB's, and pedestrian RB's... from the defenses perspective - what's to worry about??


Also, you cannot subtract carries from the Packers and the do the same for one other team and claim its meaningful.

Do it for all teams, minus the option teams, if you want. As I've pointed out, you can't take the option team QB atts out b/c that is a staple of their offense. I wouldn't want my team to be doing what Wash and SF are doing - they're going to get their QB's killed eventually. I don't see it as a viable, long term approach. In the short term, they're tearing the league up.

I'm not that caught up trying to use statistics to prove something that is obvious.

It is obvious, or should be obvious, that the Green Bay Packers simply cannot run the football effectively from base formations with their principle RB's - and that should be the point.

[pbmax]

It is obvious, or should be obvious, that the Green Bay Packers simply cannot run the football effectively from base formations with their principle RB's - and that should be the point.

On this, for 2012 at least, we agree. I think it will be much better in 2013. We'll see.

[Fritz]

With all the love that TT and MM have for small, soft players and fancy-pants passing schemes, I don't understand why they've drafted and plan to play Eddie Lacy.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The worst thing I've heard about Lacy is that some sportwriter said he looks like Ron Dayne. Sent a shiver down my spine. Dayne wasn't a terrible pro, had a long career, but you certainly hope for more. They both were big, overpowering backs in college who also have quick feet.

[pbmax]

The worst thing I've heard about Lacy is that some sportwriter said he looks like Ron Dayne. Sent a shiver down my spine. Dayne wasn't a terrible pro, had a long career, but you certainly hope for more. They both were big, overpowering backs in college who also have quick feet.

Lacy had four runs in the scrimmage that looked better than most of Dayne's career. He is not as heavy (doubt Dayne's listed weight was ever accurate) and he responds to contact better. Will he be a world beater? Don't know, but I think he will eclipse Ron.

[Guiness]

I'm reading that there is hope Bulaga could come back during the season.

I'm curious about this injury. Obviously not a full tear - first there is hope he can play through it, now that he comes back quickly. These are not the discussions you generally hear when it comes to ACL injuries.

[run pMc]

I'm with you pbmax. I think the running game in 2012 was pretty awful and was cause for a lot of struggles. I also think Lacy > Dayne for the reasons you site (Dayne looked heavier, didn't handle contact as well). I also think Dayne was less decisive and used to huge holes in the line that stayed open longer...but that's another thread topic.

Some offenses featured the QB as part of its rushing attack (Cam Newton, RGIII, Kaepernick), so I disagree that removing their stats "gives a better indicator of what kind of shape a teams actual running game is in". I'd argue removing them give an indication of how reliant a team is on the QB for rushing yards, and how effective their RBs are.

Last year I think he gave up a little early sometimes, and not running at all for most of the 2nd half vs SF was wrong IMO. Honestly, there were times last year where the RBs were so bad that I can hardly blame M3 for giving up and just let Rodgers go to work -- if you listed the top 5 skill players on offense last year, none would have been a RB.

Benson - retread, still on the street
Grant - retread, still on the street
Starks - couldn't stay healthy
Green - rushed back from ACL injury
Harris - car salesman

Not exactly a murderer's row.

I think the RB talent is much better this year with Lacy, Franklin, a resurgant Starks and a healthier Green...not to mention Harris. M3 will trust the running game more if he's actually got talented players to work with. Lacy has people excited because he's clearly shown some talent already.

One other thing we have to accept about M3 -- he's not a brilliant in-game strategist. He is very good at teaching and developing players, which works well with TT's philosophy for building a team. Not a bad trade-off if it means being a respected perennial playoff team.

[wist43]

With all the love that TT and MM have for small, soft players and fancy-pants passing schemes, I don't understand why they've drafted and plan to play Eddie Lacy.

Starks is a big back too... and Green isn't a small back.

Lacy is in for a rude awakening though... at Alabama he ran behind an OL that was better, man-for-man and in terms of execution and production, than the mess he is going to be running behind now.

It is undeniable that the Packers prefer finesse players, even if the Ht/Wt ratios say they're comparable to league averages. You can't tell what type of player a guy is simply based on his Ht/Wt ratio. Who knows, maybe Bacteria can actually run block?? I doubt it, but if he understands leverage, has good feet and hands?? Maybe he can actually do the job - but if he can, he would be the exception to the Packers rule - which is to have foot shuffling, wall-off, pass protectors who couldn't drive block a cornerback off the LOS.

Marshmellow may be short for an OT, but he's certainly got the weight - why then is he the worst run blocking OT in the league?? If anything, being short and squat, by Ht/Wt definition, he should be an excellent drive blocker - yet, he is soft, soft, soft, weak, weak, weak.

None of this is going to change anytime soon. It is the Packers philosophy that dictates that they acquire these types of players.

[wist43]

You guys keep pointing to the RB's...

Yeah, that's not a murderer's row, but how many times did Benson take a handoff and was hit before he could look up?? Beyond that, our blocking philosophy isn't even designed to "open holes", it is simplistic front side is there, or look for the cut back... if the defense defends the backside(which is easy to do), our RB's are going exactly nowhere.

It would be nice to have better talent at RB, but what does it matter when your OL sucks, and your philosophy keeps you stuck in that condition??

[Fritz]

Starks is a big back too... and Green isn't a small back.

Lacy is in for a rude awakening though... at Alabama he ran behind an OL that was better, man-for-man and in terms of execution and production, than the mess he is going to be running behind now.

It is undeniable that the Packers prefer finesse players, even if the Ht/Wt ratios say they're comparable to league averages. You can't tell what type of player a guy is simply based on his Ht/Wt ratio. Who knows, maybe Bacteria can actually run block?? I doubt it, but if he understands leverage, has good feet and hands?? Maybe he can actually do the job - but if he can, he would be the exception to the Packers rule - which is to have foot shuffling, wall-off, pass protectors who couldn't drive block a cornerback off the LOS.

Marshmellow may be short for an OT, but he's certainly got the weight - why then is he the worst run blocking OT in the league?? If anything, being short and squat, by Ht/Wt definition, he should be an excellent drive blocker - yet, he is soft, soft, soft, weak, weak, weak.

None of this is going to change anytime soon. It is the Packers philosophy that dictates that they acquire these types of players.

The Packer War Room, According to Wist:

Eliot Wolf: Well, we're down to these two offensive linemen. Both have similar measurables. Height, weight, combine numbers.

Mike McCarthy: Dammit, need a guy who can pass block. What's the difference between them?

Wolf: Well, the one guy likes Chuck Norris movies, eats raw hamburger, carries a handgun. Belches and farts a lot. Got run over by a truck once, got right back up. Said it wasn't so bad.

Ted Thompson: What about the other guy?

Wolf: He enjoys long walks in the woods, art show openings, gourmet food. He sings in his church choir, pink's his favorite color.

Thompson and McCarthy: We'll take that guy!

[pbmax]

I'm reading that there is hope Bulaga could come back during the season.

I'm curious about this injury. Obviously not a full tear - first there is hope he can play through it, now that he comes back quickly. These are not the discussions you generally hear when it comes to ACL injuries.

I think that is wishful thinking about either a partial tear, which was not announced or the return in same season of Rod Woodson to play in the playoffs.

Not going to risk it with a young player.

[wist43]

The Packer War Room, According to Wist:

Eliot Wolf: Well, we're down to these two offensive linemen. Both have similar measurables. Height, weight, combine numbers.

Mike McCarthy: Dammit, need a guy who can pass block. What's the difference between them?

Wolf: Well, the one guy likes Chuck Norris movies, eats raw hamburger, carries a handgun. Belches and farts a lot. Got run over by a truck once, got right back up. Said it wasn't so bad.

Ted Thompson: What about the other guy?

Wolf: He enjoys long walks in the woods, art show openings, gourmet food. He sings in his church choir, pink's his favorite color.

Thompson and McCarthy: We'll take that guy!

lol... yeah, that's pretty close I'd imagine :)

[run pMc]

You guys keep pointing to the RB's...

Yeah, that's not a murderer's row, but how many times did Benson take a handoff and was hit before he could look up?? Beyond that, our blocking philosophy isn't even designed to "open holes", it is simplistic front side is there, or look for the cut back... if the defense defends the backside(which is easy to do), our RB's are going exactly nowhere.

It would be nice to have better talent at RB, but what does it matter when your OL sucks, and your philosophy keeps you stuck in that condition??

We can go back and forth about whether a RB makes the OL or OL makes the RB.

Regardless, I think you raise a good point. The OL certainly shares blame for some of the run game's failings.

I would, however, argue that the OL depth is what hurt them. Sherrod hasn't been healthy and has yet to show he can be the starting LT (or RT). Bulaga was thought to be a potential Pro Bowl RT so they kept him there...meanwhile Newhouse ends up at LT. Lang was stuck between Newhouse and Saturday and could only help one of them at a time...then he hurt his elbow and floundered at RT when Bulaga got hurt. McGinn was right about one thing: Barclay, not Lang, should have been at RT. Barclay saved their bacon last year...the OL was at least 2 spots short of decent backups, and he was able to step in.

It's no surprise TT drafted Bakh and Tretter. Last year there were a lot of young guys (Datko, Barclay, EDS) that should be better. Newhouse claims he's working on improving his run blocking...and while he has good feet, he's not the LT anymore. Saturday is gone.
I expect improvements this year from the OL and will be disappointed if there isn't. The depth is better at OL and RB.

[Guiness]

We can go back and forth about whether a RB makes the OL or OL makes the RB.

Regardless, I think you raise a good point. The OL certainly shares blame for some of the run game's failings.

I would, however, argue that the OL depth is what hurt them. Sherrod hasn't been healthy and has yet to show he can be the starting LT (or RT).

Sherrod at LT or RT? That's a bill of goods no one is buying. I'd be elated if he was our Long Snapper coming out of camp.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I also think Lacy > Dayne for the reasons you site (Dayne looked heavier...
http://sportsmasher.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/20130729-174257-296x341.jpg

Sorry, couldn't resist a trip down recent memory lane.

I don't have any reason to believe that Lacy won't surprass Dayne, but the sportswriter who made the comparison also covered Dayne in college, maybe it was Oates, I forget. The two backs have similar running styles.

[Upnorth]

I think our run game is better this year due to Lacy / Harris and no Saturday

[Harlan Huckleby]

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/373/081/51336260_display_image.jpg

No wonder they look alike, they both are #27.

If you search on "Ron Dayne Giants" for pics, you'll see that Ron Dayne slimmed-down quite a bit as a pro.


Oh ya, I know that picture of Lacy above is deceptive, I just put it up as a joke.

[pbmax]

http://sportsmasher.com/rrr))))96x341.jpg

Sorry, couldn't resist a trip down recent memory lane.

I don't have any reason to believe that Lacy won't surprass Dayne, but the sportswriter who made the comparison also covered Dayne in college, maybe it was Oates, I forget. The two backs have similar running styles.

Blocking scheme could make a difference. Not sure what they run at Alabama, but Alvarez's zone and Packer's zone share some similarities.

We'll know more if he plays Friday, there were a lot of big holes in the scrimmage.

[wist43]

We can go back and forth about whether a RB makes the OL or OL makes the RB.

Regardless, I think you raise a good point. The OL certainly shares blame for some of the run game's failings.

I would, however, argue that the OL depth is what hurt them. Sherrod hasn't been healthy and has yet to show he can be the starting LT (or RT). Bulaga was thought to be a potential Pro Bowl RT so they kept him there...meanwhile Newhouse ends up at LT. Lang was stuck between Newhouse and Saturday and could only help one of them at a time...then he hurt his elbow and floundered at RT when Bulaga got hurt. McGinn was right about one thing: Barclay, not Lang, should have been at RT. Barclay saved their bacon last year...the OL was at least 2 spots short of decent backups, and he was able to step in.

It's no surprise TT drafted Bakh and Tretter. Last year there were a lot of young guys (Datko, Barclay, EDS) that should be better. Newhouse claims he's working on improving his run blocking...and while he has good feet, he's not the LT anymore. Saturday is gone.
I expect improvements this year from the OL and will be disappointed if there isn't. The depth is better at OL and RB.

To be very effective at running the ball, of course you need both a good OL, and good RB.

However, the Packers, moreso than most teams are pretty dead in the water regardless of talent b/c of how MM approaches the run game - defending the run against GB is far too easy, b/c MM only has 3 running plays - and all of the problems that are obvious b/c of the finesse players TT and MM favor.

I'm not sure how much improvement we could realize even if we lined up 5 pro bowlers in front of Adrian Peterson. That we were able to run effectively for that brief stretch of games that culminated in our SB win only serves to show how much of a fluke it really was. That was the only stretch of games since MM and TT have been here - after he dumped Sherman's kick-ass line - that MM's offense has been able to run the ball.

A 6-8 game stretch in 7 years... worth of football - you'd think that at some point someone within the organization would wonder if there is something wrong with the picture??

I had hoped that we could improve enough in the run game this year that it would take some pressure off of ARod, but with Bulaga going down, I now hold out no hope that we'll see any improvement.

[pbmax]

However, the Packers, moreso than most teams are pretty dead in the water regardless of talent b/c of how MM approaches the run game - defending the run against GB is far too easy, b/c MM only has 3 running plays - and all of the problems that are obvious b/c of the finesse players TT and MM favor.


Somehow Alex Gibbs, Mike Shanahan and Barry Alvarez (formerly) make four running plays work for big yards every year. And in the NFL, its worked with late round draft picks and scrap head lineman who were too light for other teams.

Besides, the Packers run more than the ZBS plays anyway.

[wist43]

Somehow Alex Gibbs, Mike Shanahan and Barry Alvarez (formerly) make four running plays work for big yards every year. And in the NFL, its worked with late round draft picks and scrap head lineman who were too light for other teams.

Besides, the Packers run more than the ZBS plays anyway.

I know the ZBS has worked in some places, but for sure and for certain it's been nothing but a mess in GB since MM installed it.

Look what happened in Oakland last year... I remember their OC - every week, as he was peppered with questions to explain why they couldn't run the ball - he kept saying "patience, it will come around". It never came around, and was a complete disaster all year for them - he was fired a few milliseconds after their final game.

As for MM running more than 3 plays - yeah, here and there you'd see Sitton or Lang pull, but so infrequently as to be able to say those plays are certainly not part of anything MM wants to do. He wants to run 3 running plays - and that's it.

You would think that after all these year of sucking - absolutely sucking - at running the football, that MM would look in the mirror, but that hasn't, nor is it ever, going to happen.

[pbmax]

I know the ZBS has worked in some places, but for sure and for certain it's been nothing but a mess in GB since MM installed it.

Look what happened in Oakland last year... I remember their OC - every week, as he was peppered with questions to explain why they couldn't run the ball - he kept saying "patience, it will come around". It never came around, and was a complete disaster all year for them - he was fired a few milliseconds after their final game.

As for MM running more than 3 plays - yeah, here and there you'd see Sitton or Lang pull, but so infrequently as to be able to say those plays are certainly not part of anything MM wants to do. He wants to run 3 running plays - and that's it.

You would think that after all these year of sucking - absolutely sucking - at running the football, that MM would look in the mirror, but that hasn't, nor is it ever, going to happen.

His hire of Jeff Jagodzinski doesn't seem wise in retrospect. If Jags knew what he was doing, M3 has never been able to replicate it.

[Fritz]

I know the ZBS has worked in some places, but for sure and for certain it's been nothing but a mess in GB since MM installed it.

Look what happened in Oakland last year... I remember their OC - every week, as he was peppered with questions to explain why they couldn't run the ball - he kept saying "patience, it will come around". It never came around, and was a complete disaster all year for them - he was fired a few milliseconds after their final game.

As for MM running more than 3 plays - yeah, here and there you'd see Sitton or Lang pull, but so infrequently as to be able to say those plays are certainly not part of anything MM wants to do. He wants to run 3 running plays - and that's it.

You would think that after all these year of sucking - absolutely sucking - at running the football, that MM would look in the mirror, but that hasn't, nor is it ever, going to happen.


You're right, Wist. MM is a lousy coach. He'll never go over a past season in review to learn from it. He'll never wise up to the need for a real running game. He's too in love with the pass.

And Thompson - he loves soft players. Loves 'em. He'll always deliberately draft a soft finesse guy over a roughneck, because he likes finesse.

And Capers - he's terrible. Deliberately uses stupid two-down lineman schemes when everybody knows that doesn't work. Doesn't really like playmakers. Doesn't make adjustments. Doesn't know how to use talent.

If it weren't for one player - just one, single player named Rodgers - this team would be 2-14, maybe, every single year. That's how lousy the above three leaders of this organization are.

[bobblehead]

I'm not sure how much improvement we could realize even if we lined up 5 pro bowlers in front of Adrian Peterson. That we were able to run effectively for that brief stretch of games that culminated in our SB win only serves to show how much of a fluke it really was. That was the only stretch of games since MM and TT have been here - after he dumped Sherman's kick-ass line - that MM's offense has been able to run the ball.

.

I gotta disagree a bit. When Grant was on fire in the 13-3 season, we looked like the Ahman Green Packers.

[bobblehead]

His hire of Jeff Jagodzinski doesn't seem wise in retrospect. If Jags knew what he was doing, M3 has never been able to replicate it.

NOw that you mention it, when he left is when the running game depleted even with Grant still there he was never the same. Perhaps MM should have hired Alex Gibbs when I was pining for it.

[Fritz]

Maybe Jags would come back as the assistant line coach. He's been fired from every job he's had since he left GB, I think. Should be humble enough to take any position there is.

[Guiness]

How long was Jags with the Pack? Just one year as OC as I recall, and that was the year they drafted a few OL that were to be suited for the ZBS - Colledge in particular. Seemed to me like the team was set back a few years by his experiment.

[Joemailman]

Contrary to popular (or at least Wist's) opinion, the Packers ran the ball fairly effectively from 2007-2009 with Grant as the primary ball carrier. YPC of 4.1, 4.1 and 4.3 doing those years. They also ran it fairly well late in 2010 with a healthy Starks. They had a YPC of under 4 in 2006 and 2010-2012 with the likes of Brandon Jackson, Kuhn, Green and Benson running the ball. The biggest problem has been the quality of the ball carriers. Things picked up late last year when Harris took over for Green. The Packers have the best group of RB's they've had in quite a while. Good enough that Harris might not make the team. Because of this, the running game will be better this year. If the offensive line is improved, the running game could be quite a bit better.

[Freak Out]

Thank you Joe. So....are we going to try and meet in GB this year for custard?

[Bretsky]

Thank you Joe. So....are we going to try and meet in GB this year for custard?

Screw the Custard
Let's get Caramelized !

[wist43]

You're right, Wist. MM is a lousy coach. He'll never go over a past season in review to learn from it. He'll never wise up to the need for a real running game. He's too in love with the pass.

And Thompson - he loves soft players. Loves 'em. He'll always deliberately draft a soft finesse guy over a roughneck, because he likes finesse.

And Capers - he's terrible. Deliberately uses stupid two-down lineman schemes when everybody knows that doesn't work. Doesn't really like playmakers. Doesn't make adjustments. Doesn't know how to use talent.

If it weren't for one player - just one, single player named Rodgers - this team would be 2-14, maybe, every single year. That's how lousy the above three leaders of this organization are.

Fritz... you're really beginning to see the light - although I'd argue we're a 5-11 team without ARod ;)

[wist43]

Contrary to popular (or at least Wist's) opinion, the Packers ran the ball fairly effectively from 2007-2009 with Grant as the primary ball carrier. YPC of 4.1, 4.1 and 4.3 doing those years. They also ran it fairly well late in 2010 with a healthy Starks. They had a YPC of under 4 in 2006 and 2010-2012 with the likes of Brandon Jackson, Kuhn, Green and Benson running the ball. The biggest problem has been the quality of the ball carriers. Things picked up late last year when Harris took over for Green. The Packers have the best group of RB's they've had in quite a while. Good enough that Harris might not make the team. Because of this, the running game will be better this year. If the offensive line is improved, the running game could be quite a bit better.

They were on the short side of semi-okay during those years - but of course I wanna beat people up, ala SF and the other physical teams.

I know we're gonna be a soft team for as long as TT and MM are running the show. If they get us another SB title, hallelujah, I'll take it - but I don't see that happening unless the physical teams come back to us.

We're becoming, or have become, the Patriots of the NFC. Great QB, innovative offensive coach (at least in the passing game), but generally soft in most regards. Although, NE at least makes an effort to play tough defense - we don't even try.

If the league keeps moving more and more toward a Flag Football League - we're aces ;)

[pbmax]

NOw that you mention it, when he left is when the running game depleted even with Grant still there he was never the same. Perhaps MM should have hired Alex Gibbs when I was pining for it.

Funny thing is two institutions decided he was under qualified for his job, Boston College and the Tampa Bay Bucs. The public story in Tampa was a demotion because of communication issues that were delaying calls in the huddle. But the leaks after the fact were more embarrassing as other coaches on staff declared his passing offense too simple and underdeveloped to succeed in the NFL. Several stories thought that was the reason for the demotion. He refused a reassignment to QB coach and was let go.

He has a real attitude and is outspoken. Sherman canned him after 3 years. Of all the coaches McCarthy has hired, Jags was the misfit. Green and Trgo look like Patriots coaches by comparison.

Despite an association with Sherman, McCarthy and the Packer offense, the Falcons offense when it had Alex Gibbs running game and his early success with the BC Eagles. He was not in demand. His next job was in the UFL then back to college.

Jags and Grant didn't cross paths. Jags got a near the end Ahman Green.

[Zool]

They were on the short side of semi-okay during those years - but of course I wanna beat people up, ala SF and the other physical teams.

Well at least we're finally getting somewhere in this circle jerk. You want them to be like another team. They aren't going to be no matter how many drums you beat.

I would like to know who the other power running teams are though. Maybe the Redskins or the Vikings?

[denverYooper]

Well at least we're finally getting somewhere in this circle jerk. You want them to be like another team. They aren't going to be no matter how many drums you beat.

I would like to know who the other power running teams are though. Maybe the Redskins or the Vikings?

The Chiefs had a pretty good running game. They finished 2-14.

[run pMc]

Contrary to popular (or at least Wist's) opinion, the Packers ran the ball fairly effectively from 2007-2009 with Grant as the primary ball carrier. YPC of 4.1, 4.1 and 4.3 doing those years. They also ran it fairly well late in 2010 with a healthy Starks. They had a YPC of under 4 in 2006 and 2010-2012 with the likes of Brandon Jackson, Kuhn, Green and Benson running the ball. The biggest problem has been the quality of the ball carriers. Things picked up late last year when Harris took over for Green. The Packers have the best group of RB's they've had in quite a while. Good enough that Harris might not make the team. Because of this, the running game will be better this year. If the offensive line is improved, the running game could be quite a bit better.

+1

IIRC Grant ran for 1200 yards twice in a 3 year span...I think the majority of fans and posters would be very happy if Lacy duplicated that.

As to wist's point:

A 6-8 game stretch in 7 years... worth of football - you'd think that at some point someone within the organization would wonder if there is something wrong with the picture??

I think someone in the organization did notice and that's how Lacy and Franklin got drafted.

[Pugger]

You're right, Wist. MM is a lousy coach. He'll never go over a past season in review to learn from it. He'll never wise up to the need for a real running game. He's too in love with the pass.

And Thompson - he loves soft players. Loves 'em. He'll always deliberately draft a soft finesse guy over a roughneck, because he likes finesse.

And Capers - he's terrible. Deliberately uses stupid two-down lineman schemes when everybody knows that doesn't work. Doesn't really like playmakers. Doesn't make adjustments. Doesn't know how to use talent.

If it weren't for one player - just one, single player named Rodgers - this team would be 2-14, maybe, every single year. That's how lousy the above three leaders of this organization are.

Yeah, I don't even know why we even bother watching this bunch of losers.

[wist43]

You guys are certainly worth the price of admission, lol...

Conscientious objectors certainly talk a good game - push comes to shove, you run though, huh??

I'm sure that was one of you who got away the other day... my brother stopped by the house, left his windows down on his SUV, his wifes purse was on the seat. We watched these two punks walk by... then circle back, casually strolling - :whist: - they look around, see no one, one of them goes to reach in the truck to grab the purse.

I yelled, one ran, the other kept casually walking as if he had done nothing... I grabbed the biggest knife I had at easy disposal and bolted out the door and gave chase. Mr. Casual Walker ran like hell, lol...

Would have cut his throat if I'd have caught him - can't run well anymore though, the kid is lucky.

I suspect most of you would have cowered in fear, and called the cops ;)

Do you guys wear pink panties too??

Why do you guys even watch football?? Shouldn't you be watching the communist plot that is soccer?? Picketing MLB stadiums demanding they go to T-ball b/c it's safer??

I love you guys :hrt: :hrt:

[Patler]

Internet personae sure are entertaining.

[denverYooper]

Internet personae sure are entertaining.

+1

[swede]

Wist had his purse stolen?

[denverYooper]

Wist had his purse stolen?

And he wears pink panties.

[3irty1]

And he wears pink panties.

And he'd wear an orange jumpsuit if he could run faster.

[wist43]

And he'd wear an orange jumpsuit if he could run faster.

Miss the good ol days, that's for sure ;)

[wist43]

Wist had his purse stolen?

The french call it a "Sac homme"... and Kramer made it okay for us to wear the "Manzeer"... and Depends has made it okay for us to wear diapers... and soccer has made it okay say American football is too rough - embrace the future of the American male!!!

Only a 'man' secure in his own metrosexuality could come out of those closets ;)

[Zool]

Miss the good ol days, that's for sure ;)

Did you just compare complaining on an NFL forum to purse snatching and attempted abduction of said snatchers?

[wist43]

Did you just compare complaining on an NFL forum to purse snatching and attempted abduction of said snatchers?

Who's complaining??

I'm the only complainer around here... you guys are all eyeball dilated on prozac :shock:

[Fritz]

You guys are certainly worth the price of admission, lol...

Conscientious objectors certainly talk a good game - push comes to shove, you run though, huh??

I'm sure that was one of you who got away the other day... my brother stopped by the house, left his windows down on his SUV, his wifes purse was on the seat. We watched these two punks walk by... then circle back, casually strolling - :whist: - they look around, see no one, one of them goes to reach in the truck to grab the purse.

I yelled, one ran, the other kept casually walking as if he had done nothing... I grabbed the biggest knife I had at easy disposal and bolted out the door and gave chase. Mr. Casual Walker ran like hell, lol...

Would have cut his throat if I'd have caught him - can't run well anymore though, the kid is lucky.

I suspect most of you would have cowered in fear, and called the cops ;)

Do you guys wear pink panties too??

Why do you guys even watch football?? Shouldn't you be watching the communist plot that is soccer?? Picketing MLB stadiums demanding they go to T-ball b/c it's safer??

I love you guys :hrt: :hrt:


So if I understand all this correctly, winning a SB three years ago and being in contention each year is not enough - one's favorite team must be tough and punishing, running the ball in a manly way and being defensively aggressive and overly physical.

If a fan enjoys rooting for a very successful football franchise which does not possess these traits, said fan must be cowardly, liberal, and effeminate. And probably a thief, too.

That being said, I think Swede just stole your thunder.

Got it.

[Zool]

Who's complaining??

I'm the only complainer around here... you guys are all eyeball dilated on prozac :shock:

So yes

[hoosier]

And he wears pink panties.

http://listia.s3.amazonaws.com/photos/493a544352e6c41f48fd/medium.jpg?1336347491

[wist43]

So if I understand all this correctly, winning a SB three years ago and being in contention each year is not enough - one's favorite team must be tough and punishing, running the ball in a manly way and being defensively aggressive and overly physical.

If a fan enjoys rooting for a very successful football franchise which does not possess these traits, said fan must be cowardly, liberal, and effeminate. And probably a thief, too.

That being said, I think Swede just stole your thunder.

Got it.

Where you guys get it wrong, is you're so dreamy eyed about being competitive year-in/year-out with an elite passing attack, that you're willing to accept abysmal performance in other areas.

I thought our '96 team was light years better than our '10 team, yet they only won one championship too - and Ron Wolf had it right, "a fart in the wind". Appreciate his honesty.

I focus on what is wrong with the team - you guys focus on what is working. I guess by doing that, you don't ever have to think about what it takes to get better...

As I said in another post - we're becoming the Patriots of the NFC... elite QB keeps us competitve year-in/year-out, but overall team deficiencies keep them from winning it all again. That said, at least NE has won a few championships during their run - we've got our fart in the wind.

[wist43]

http://hottieofthehour.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Christine-Mendoza-pink-bikini.jpg

I have to show you guys how to do everything!!!

[hoosier]

Question: If the Patriots are too soft and QB-reliant, and the Packers are the Patriots of the NFC and also a fart in the wind, what team's recent history do you like better? Would you rather be San Fran, losing your last games of the year to teams you probably should have beaten? Or would you be the Seahawks, unable to get past the divisional round? Or the Giants, who either win the Superbowl or don't make the playoffs at all? Recent history says the manly teams that eschew the pink panties and go commando haven't fared any better than the Pack in the postseason.

[wist43]

Question: If the Patriots are too soft and QB-reliant, and the Packers are the Patriots of the NFC and also a fart in the wind, what team's recent history do you like better? Would you rather be San Fran, losing your last games of the year to teams you probably should have beaten? Or would you be the Seahawks, unable to get past the divisional round? Or the Giants, who either win the Superbowl or don't make the playoffs at all? Recent history says the manly teams that eschew the pink panties and go commando haven't fared any better than the Pack in the postseason.

Finally, a good post worthy of discussion :)

Firstly, I wouldn't say NE isn't a fart in the wind, b/c they've won 3 Championships in Brady's tenure.

Everyone hates Belichick though, and rightly so - wouldn't want to be a fan of that team b/c of him; and I do hate their offense - midget football?? Hate it!!!

The Seahawks are an ascending team - learning how to win, and had a rookie QB last year. Expect they'll be tough for quite a while.

I absolutely like the Niners and Giants better than the Packers in terms of their organizational philosophies. Even as I don't much care for Coughlin or Harbaugh.

I appreciate their approach to running the ball and playing defense.

The Giants need a shrink though... can't explain how they can be so severely inconsistent like that.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

The question then could be asked - would you rather be the Packers that sandwich a SB inbetween three embarrassing playoff ass-whippings??

Arizona 51 - GB 45
Gave up 531 yds

NYG 37 - GB 20
Game wasn't as close as score would indicate - were physically dominated.

SF 45 - GB 31
The 579 of course - game was never in doubt - where physically dominated.

So we have 1 Championship surrounded by 3 complete embarrassments.

You tell me, which teams track record you prefer??

The 1 Championship was nice - but it's 1 Championship... The Giants have 2 in recent memory; the Pats have 3; and Seattle and SF are 2 teams that are both much, much better than the Packers are right now.

We're not going to win the SB this year - it's a long shot unless we get hot, and other teams come back to us. We are a fundamentally flawed team - and it is those flaws that will prevent us from winning a championship this year.

[Freak Out]

Screw the Custard
Let's get Caramelized !

We can do both. :) So what are we shooting for?

[Fritz]

http://hottieofthehour.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Christine-Mendoza-pink-bikini.jpg

I have to show you guys how to do everything!!!

Finally, Wist, a good post.

[bobblehead]

SF 45 - GB 31
The 579 of course - game was never in doubt - where physically dominated.
.

Here is my problem with you and Rbaloha. This game was very close. Tied midway through the 3rd quarter. We were not physically dominated, we were out schemed....that almost sounds like a soft way to win....running a trick play the Eric Walden falls for everytime.

We ran the ball very effectively early, got a pick 6 early by our soft defense, and down one score at the midpoint of the 3rd we benched our only healthy running back and didn't run again.

That isn't soft, that is setting your QB up to be killed. If we run effectively this season and MM has confidence to keep calling it, we likely win the big game again. This despite our 2 first round OT's being out.

We are soft?? We have lost a big physical DE 1st round pick, 2 1st round physical OT's, and a big physical 1st round OLB to injury. Show me a team that does that and still wins. ONly one I bet.

We have been unlucky. MM having zero confidence to call run plays at clutch moments doesn't help...but soft?? I just don't buy it.

[Guiness]

Here is my problem with you and Rbaloha. This game was very close. Tied midway through the 3rd quarter. We were not physically dominated, we were out schemed....that almost sounds like a soft way to win....running a trick play the Eric Walden falls for everytime.

We ran the ball very effectively early, got a pick 6 early by our soft defense, and down one score at the midpoint of the 3rd we benched our only healthy running back and didn't run again.

That isn't soft, that is setting your QB up to be killed. If we run effectively this season and MM has confidence to keep calling it, we likely win the big game again. This despite our 2 first round OT's being out.

We are soft?? We have lost a big physical DE 1st round pick, 2 1st round physical OT's, and a big physical 1st round OLB to injury. Show me a team that does that and still wins. ONly one I bet.

We have been unlucky. MM having zero confidence to call run plays at clutch moments doesn't help...but soft?? I just don't buy it.

Good way to sum it up.

There are some losses that are tough to swallow. This is one of them, there just seemed to be no reason why the Pack continued to get carved up, and why they threw the ball down after down.

The loss to Arizona with the non-call of the helmet to helmet on Rodgers was another. The mother of all though was the Jerry Rice fumble.

[pbmax]

Did you just compare complaining on an NFL forum to purse snatching and attempted abduction of said snatchers?

I don't think he meant abduction. Pretty sure he wished to commit a homicide.

[Harlan Huckleby]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-have-a-shining-new-replacement-in-david-bakhtiari-b9969070z1-218460911.html

McGinn with an upbeat, "the sky is not falling article. That's what I like about McGinn. He tries to offer a different perspective on things. And he's often right.

After watching last night's game, I'm calling BS on McGinn, at least 50%. David Bakhtiari really is all that, I'm a believer. But looking at the group, starters and depth, the offensive line has been greatly weakened. McGinn enjoys being a contrarian, and with all the doom and gloom talk, he over-corrected with the "what, me worry?" angle. No team is just fine losing #1, #1 and #4 draft picks at same position.

LT sure looks like Bakhtiari's natural home. Bulaga is probably a RT. Hope either Barclay or Newhouse are on upswing, and mostly I pray for no more injuries.

[Bossman641]

The 49ers especially and Seattle to an extent had to bottom out for a succession of years in order to get into position to draft all those big, talented OL and DL. With the exception of 06 the Packers have been drafting towards the end of round 1 every year. Even taking that into account, it's been the injuries that have screwed up the line positions. Harrell should be in the prime of his career. Sherrod and Bulaga were supposed to be bookend tackles for the next 10 years.

SF
2004 2-14
2005 4-12
2006 7-9
2007 5-11
2008 7-9
2009 8-8
2010 6-10

Seattle
2008 4-12
2009 5-11
2010 7-9

[wist43]

Here is my problem with you and Rbaloha. This game was very close. Tied midway through the 3rd quarter. We were not physically dominated, we were out schemed....that almost sounds like a soft way to win....running a trick play the Eric Walden falls for everytime.

We ran the ball very effectively early, got a pick 6 early by our soft defense, and down one score at the midpoint of the 3rd we benched our only healthy running back and didn't run again.

That isn't soft, that is setting your QB up to be killed. If we run effectively this season and MM has confidence to keep calling it, we likely win the big game again. This despite our 2 first round OT's being out.

We are soft?? We have lost a big physical DE 1st round pick, 2 1st round physical OT's, and a big physical 1st round OLB to injury. Show me a team that does that and still wins. ONly one I bet.

We have been unlucky. MM having zero confidence to call run plays at clutch moments doesn't help...but soft?? I just don't buy it.

We get physically dominated on both sides of the ball for different reasons.

On offense it is our philosophy that acquires offensive linemen that are first and foremost, mobile. That usually translates into players that can't drive block, or anchor very well in pass-pro.

We get absolutely no movement of the LOS off the snap - none. That is physically dominated.

----------------------------------------------------------

On defense the wounds are more self-inflicted by Capers addiction to playing as small as possible at all times.

Perhaps we could hold our own on the LOS if Capers played the game as if controlling the LOS were a goal - but controlling the LOS isn't even on his checklist. Hence, our front six are undersized to take on power running teams like SF - and we get shoved around more than we should.

This doesn't bother Capers in the least, b/c in his spraypainted head, coverage trumps every other consideration - and we don't even do that well when we come up against the big boys.

----------------------------------------------------------

As for the SF game - say what you will about what the score was before their dominance was permanently reflected on the scoreboard - after things settled down, there was no doubt which team was going to win, and there was no doubt that GB was utterly powerless and clueless to do anything about it.

I had a little bit of hope when Shields took that early pick to the house - but it didn't take long to see that SF was completely dominating us in the trenches, and as long as Kapnerfucker didn't implode, SF was going to win going away.

The fact that the game turned into an embarrassment - a fight that should have been stopped on a TKO... that speaks to how utterly clueless MM and Capers were in their prep for that game.

In the end, we had lost that game long before the team ever stepped on the field - it was a complete mismatch - and I fully expect a repeat in Week 1. We're starting the season off 0-1, and if we meet them in the playoffs, our season will be over at that point.