Run Game Analysis: Its the Guys Upfront

[pbmax]

Contrary to some speculation, Packers ran some run formations on Friday night (first half!) and it almost worked. But in each case, one or two breakdowns upfront cost them bigger runs.

Newhouse is vulnerable to Barclay at this point.

Also, Cliff Christl has been sidelined and Baranczyk is on his own. http://www.packersnews.com/article/20130810/PKR07/308100365/Eric-Baranczyk-analysis-Offensive-line-holding-back-running-game


One was with 2:30 left in the first quarter. It was a double- tight end and I-formation backfield, a classic running formation for the Packers. Left tackle David Bakhtiari and the tight end get good push, everything looks great except that left guard, undrafted rookie Patrick Lewis, who gets pushed back. That knocks fullback John Kuhn off track as the lead blocker because has to go around Lewis. Franklin has the ball and has to go around Lewis, too, and what could have been a big play is only a 4-yard gain.

How much bearing this has on the regular season is debatable as Sitton would be there normally.


Three plays later, same formation. Tight end Matthew Mulligan blocks well, the guards and center (Lewis, Lane Taylor and Greg Van Roten) are blocking, and there’s a beautiful alley for Franklin. Except right tackle Marshall Newhouse can’t block his guy. Franklin has to bend the run back into the pursuit and is tackled for a 3-yard gain. If Newhouse at least stalemates his guy, that’s a 10- or 15-yard run, the lane is there.

This mistake could be costly in two ways, one is Franklin losing out on a big play. Two, its this kind of mistake that Barclay did not make on Friday.

[red]

It the type of mistake barclay didnt make all of last year either

Why DB wasn't penciled in as starter from day one is beyond me. He just shows the heart and fight that we just dont see in newhouse

[pbmax]

It the type of mistake barclay didnt make all of last year either

Why DB wasn't penciled in as starter from day one is beyond me. He just shows the heart and fight that we just dont see in newhouse

Baranczyk also dinged EDS and Lang because on the touchdown, one was on the ground and the other was standing in the endzone. Bach and Sitton each rode their guys away, though they weren't playside.

[Joemailman]

It the type of mistake barclay didnt make all of last year either

Why DB wasn't penciled in as starter from day one is beyond me. He just shows the heart and fight that we just dont see in newhouse

Barclay reminds me of Tauscher. Maybe doesn't look the part of on NFL OT, but understands how angles and leverage factor into how to play the position. Maybe someday Sherrod takes his place, but right now he's better than Newhouse.

[denverYooper]

Lang's got a back injury so he gets a pass but it's starting to look like the #1 line this year might be Bakh/Sitton/EDS/Lang/Barclay. I think those guys + Franklin will be fun to watch once they've jelled. I'm hoping to see a return of a deadly screen game and think Franklin might do a lot of damage there.

[bobblehead]

It the type of mistake barclay didnt make all of last year either

Why DB wasn't penciled in as starter from day one is beyond me. He just shows the heart and fight that we just dont see in newhouse

I still see Barclay as being a guard with us down the road with Sherrod and Bulaga at the tackles. Yea, I know, wishful thinking that sherrod ever plays another down.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Lang's got a back injury so he gets a pass but it's starting to look like the #1 line this year might be Bakh/Sitton/EDS/Lang/Barclay. I think those guys + Franklin will be fun to watch once they've jelled. I'm hoping to see a return of a deadly screen game and think Franklin might do a lot of damage there.

Its starting to look that way. As long as you get Newhouse out the line up. Newhouse is not horrible but he should strictly be a backup at this point. He has reached his max potential by now. With Bakh and Barclay, they carry the potential of progressing into solid bookends by years end.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

I still see Barclay as being a guard with us down the road with Sherrod and Bulaga at the tackles. Yea, I know, wishful thinking that sherrod ever plays another down.

Sherrod......Bulaga going down might have saved his career with us. He wasn't making it over Bulaga, Bakhtiari, Barclay, and Newhouse. He was headed to IR or was getting cut. Maybe they place him on the pup now and hope he can provide depth by the end of the year. I feel the team will want to see something out of him at some point this year or they will move on ala Harrell.

If Tretter didn't go down we might actually of had three first or second year guys competing to start.

Bakhtiari/Sitton/Tretter/Lang/Barclay would have been interesting.

[denverYooper]

Sherrod......Bulaga going down might have saved his career with us. He wasn't making it over Bulaga, Bakhtiari, Barclay, and Newhouse. He was headed to IR or was getting cut. Maybe they place him on the pup now and hope he can provide depth by the end of the year. I feel the team will want to see something out of him at some point this year or they will move on ala Harrell.

Due to the severity of his injury, I suspect they'll PUP him and quite possibly IR him to give him 1 more year. If next year is similar, they'll probably move on.

[Joemailman]

http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb449/route25/tackles.jpg (http://s1206.photobucket.com/user/route25/media/tackles.jpg.html)

Did you see Newhouse whiff on that guy? We got it made!!

[Harlan Huckleby]

Sherrod......Bulaga going down might have saved his career with us. He wasn't making it over Bulaga, Bakhtiari, Barclay, and Newhouse. He was headed to IR or was getting cut. Maybe they place him on the pup now and hope he can provide depth by the end of the year. I feel the team will want to see something out of him at some point this year or they will move on ala Harrell.

Justin Harrell was with the Packers for four seasons. Last year was Sherrod's rookie season. Sherrod will at least be given another training camp to see if he can win a roster spot.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Justin Harrell was with the Packers for four seasons. Last year was Sherrod's rookie season. Sherrod will at least be given another training camp to see if he can win a roster spot.

This is Sherrod's third year.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Its starting to look that way. As long as you get Newhouse out the line up. Newhouse is not horrible but he should strictly be a backup at this point. He has reached his max potential by now. With Bakh and Barclay, they carry the potential of progressing into solid bookends by years end.

A lineman doesn't peak at age 24, but it's certainly possible that Newhouse won't ever be more than a guy. I like Barclay better because he can run block, but I'm not sure he'll ever be more than a guy either. We'll see. Newhouse is a backup LT.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

A lineman doesn't peak at age 24, but it's certainly possible that Newhouse won't ever be more than a guy. I like Barclay better because he can run block, but I'm not sure he'll ever be more than a guy either. We'll see. Newhouse is a backup LT.

Its not about age, its about experience. Newhouse has started the better part of two years. This will be his third year starting and he is still playing like shit and its only preseason. Good backup nothing more.

[Harlan Huckleby]

This is Sherrod's third year.

I forgot that he missed an entire year, I was thinking of 2011 as 2012.

I still think he will get another training camp, but he is approaching JH territory.

[pbmax]

Banaczyk likes Van Roten too and reported that it looks like he has figured out how to snap the ball and play center. Feels he needs more strength but could play there. Doesn't seem as high on EDS as others, he thinks he whiffs on too many blocks.

I think Lang being too high is also a function of his size, he is a tall guard.

The is Twitter panic going on about DaJones because of the McCarthy no comment and still undergoing testing on Saturday. A lot of people think they have heard these opening chords before.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Its not about age, its about experience. Newhouse has started the better part of two years. This will be his third year starting and he is still playing like shit and its only preseason. Good backup nothing more.

I'm not able to say that he was shit Friday night. He had a spectacular fail, that colors perception. It is possible that Newhouse will never be any good. But there are lots of O-linemen who barely hang around the league for 3 years and then become solid players.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

I forgot that he missed an entire year, I was thinking of 2011 as 2012.

I still think he will get another training camp, but he is approaching JH territory.

Harrell being given four years doesn't mean that Sherrod will too. Sherrod is strictly a tackle and you only carry at most 4 tackles. If Bulaga had stayed healthy the depth would have caught up with him. With Harrell the depth didn't catch up with him until year four. Also, what helped Harrell last that long was b/c they had limited depth during a time we were switching from a 43 defense to a 34 defense. We needed linemen.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Sherrod still has potential to be an excellent starting LT. He has rare physical qualities. No chance he is cut before September 2014.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Sherrod still has potential to be an excellent starting LT. He has rare physical qualities. No chance he is cut before September 2014.

Actually I agree. That's what I meant by Bulaga going down buying him more time. If Bulaga played solid at LT this year and both Bakhtiari/Barclay played solid you become less patient with Sherrod. Now you probably wait to see if he can still put it together.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Banaczyk likes Van Roten too and reported that it looks like he has figured out how to snap the ball and play center. Feels he needs more strength but could play there. Doesn't seem as high on EDS as others, he thinks he whiffs on too many blocks.

I think Lang being too high is also a function of his size, he is a tall guard.

The is Twitter panic going on about DaJones because of the McCarthy no comment and still undergoing testing on Saturday. A lot of people think they have heard these opening chords before.

I'm all for playing the young guys. The Newhouse's and EDS's of the world are what they are. Decent backups. Play guys with upside and if they fail keep looking.

[Joemailman]

I think Baranczyk is the most insightful guy covering the Packers other than McGinn.

In other words, I agree with most of what he says.

[Harlan Huckleby]

BTW, I was not at all sold on Bulaga at LT. I'm sure he could do the job, but probably it's not his best position.

Speaking of injuries, Bulaga is now damaged goods every bit as Sherrod.

Having too many good tackles in 2014 training camp is not a problem the Packers need to lose sleep over.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I'm all for playing the young guys. The Newhouse's and EDS's of the world are what they are.

Maybe so on EDS, who is 27 years old. Age matters.

Frank Winters had been cut by 3 teams before he came to GB. He barely made the GB roster for 2 years. Now he is in Packer Hall of Fame. Today, I assume he is a decrepit, morbidly obese alcoholic. (only kidding)

[Bretsky]

Sherrod still has potential to be an excellent starting LT. He has rare physical qualities. No chance he is cut before September 2014.


He's shown every little IMO with the Green Bay Packers. Many rookie OL we've drafted over the past five years showed better than Justine Sherry when he was actually playing.
He has the look of at OT on paper but he's shown little. IF he were in camp IMO he'd be cut
No surprise if they hide him on IR again; that is his home

[Bretsky]

BTW, I was not at all sold on Bulaga at LT. I'm sure he could do the job, but probably it's not his best position.

Speaking of injuries, Bulaga is now damaged goods every bit as Sherrod.

Having too many good tackles in 2014 training camp is not a problem the Packers need to lose sleep over.



But Bulaga has shown he's a very good player when healthy

[Harlan Huckleby]

He's shown every little IMO with the Green Bay Packers. Many rookie OL we've drafted over the past five years showed better

All that was proven in Sherrod's rookie year is that he is out of position at guard. I don't take too much away from that.

[Harlan Huckleby]

But Bulaga has shown he's a very good player when healthy

Right. But he is every bit the china doll as Sherrod.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

So if Sherrod comes in the league at 21 and misses his first three years he still has hope because he's 24. Yet, if he comes in at say 23 and misses his first three seasons he's done b/c he's almost 27? It's not all about age. Eventually you will give up on both the 24 year old and 27 year old.

And for every Frank Winters there are 100 players who get a chance to play, proceed to suck, and are kicked to the curb. Difference is those 100 is no one remembers them. Just like no one will remember Newhouse in 2-3 years.

Bulaga now will miss two seasons, but he is not damaged goods like Sherrod. Bulaga had two unrelated injuries and before this most recent injury was regarded as our best linemen. Bulaga can play, with Sherrod who knows. How many years are you supposed to pay a guy for doing nothing? Eventually depth will catch up with him.

[pbmax]

But Bulaga has shown he's a very good player when healthy

Unless he faces a good opponent like Seattle's D line. He is good, but he has limitations. Even forgetting Seattle, he had a terrible start to 2012. I think its correct to be concerned about how he would have fared at LT in pass pro. It was about the 3rd most common topic of conversation and he had just begin to turn it around prior to his injury (first two topics: is defense better and why cannot we pass against cover2).

He had the better fortune of having his catastrophic injuries after he was established as a starter.

At the end of 2013, Bryan Bulaga will have been available for 37 of 64 games (57%) in his illustrious career (right now, its 37/48 or 77%).

At the end of 2013, Derek Sherrod might have been available for 30 of 48 games (62.5%). As of right now, its 14 of 32 (43%).

We'll see who is the Justine.

[Bretsky]

All that was proven in Sherrod's rookie year is that he is out of position at guard. I don't take too much away from that.

IMO if he was remoted ready at LT he'd have been practicing there

[pbmax]

So if Sherrod comes in the league at 21 and misses his first three years he still has hope because he's 24. Yet, if he comes in at say 23 and misses his first three seasons he's done b/c he's almost 27? It's not all about age. Eventually you will give up on both the 24 year old and 27 year old.

snip

Bulaga now will miss two seasons, but he is not damaged goods like Sherrod. Bulaga had two unrelated injuries and before this most recent injury was regarded as our best linemen.

Not sure if this was Harlan's point, but a player at any age who has played for 3 seasons is less likely to get better than player who has not yet made the starting lineup. Now the most likely reason the second player isn't in the lineup is that he stinks, but in Sherrod's case that is still, possibly, untrue.

What we do know is that we have a lot of tape about how Newhouse plays and while he might still be improving, its not going to be by leaps and bounds. I think much of the latter career resurgence of lineman is getting themselves into advantageous situations of scheme, coaching and personnel (ie. free agency or waivers).

Also, two distinct injuries are not better. Maybe less complicated, but not encouraging.

[Bretsky]

Right. But he is every bit the china doll as Sherrod.

BB has played a lot of game for us at a high level; one might call him a China Doll and I would not argue
But if BB is a China Doll Sherrod is nothing short of the second coming at Justin Harrell at this point

[Bretsky]

Unless he faces a good opponent like Seattle's D line. He is good, but he has limitations. Even forgetting Seattle, he had a terrible start to 2012. I think its correct to be concerned about how he would have fared at LT in pass pro. It was about the 3rd most common topic of conversation and he had just begin to turn it around prior to his injury (first two topics: is defense better and why cannot we pass against cover2).

He had the better fortune of having his catastrophic injuries after he was established as a starter.

At the end of 2013, Bryan Bulaga will have been available for 37 of 64 games (57%) in his illustrious career (right now, its 37/48 or 77%).

At the end of 2013, Derek Sherrod might have been available for 30 of 48 games (62.5%). As of right now, its 14 of 32 (43%).

We'll see who is the Justine.

OK....since we are pinning stats here.........

On the field BB has been a contributor in 57% of the games and he's shown he can start at the NFL Level in some sort of capacity at worst........and perhaps at LT given our failures to find a starter at LT

While Sherrod has been available in 43% of the starts, he's started in 0%

[Joemailman]

IMO if he was remoted ready at LT he'd have been practicing there

No, they gave him a chance to battle for the LG position because they still had Clifton at LT. The idea was to try to get their 5 best OL in the lineup. It didn't work because he struggled at LG, but Sherrod wasn't going to be given a real chance to replace Clifton at that point.

[pbmax]

No, they gave him a chance to battle for the LG position because they still had Clifton at LT. The idea was to try to get their 5 best OL in the lineup. It didn't work because he struggled at LG, but Sherrod wasn't going to be given a real chance to replace Clifton at that point.

That is stil mind boggling to me. Bulaga was thought to be a guard by some coming out of college. Sherrod was one of those guys who scouts almost unanimously said couldn't or shouldn't play guard. Worse was the decision to give him only 3rd team reps at LT as Newhouse got the second team snaps.

I would wonder if McCarthy interferes too much here. But one of the few public squabble, he claimed Lang struck him as a Right Tackle and the coaches wanted him at Guard. I still think he is more a tackle than guard.

[pbmax]

OK....since we are pinning stats here.........

On the field BB has been a contributor in 57% of the games and he's shown he can start at the NFL Level in some sort of capacity at worst........and perhaps at LT given our failures to find a starter at LT

While Sherrod has been available in 43% of the starts, he's started in 0%

Mike Flanagan is calling me I will let you know what he thinks about this line of reasoning. :lol:

Newhouse has contributed (by that definition) more in the past two years than Bulaga, but we know that isn't a good thing.

[pbmax]

Just as a note, Bob McGinn gave some good marks to Lane Taylor at Guard.

Good notes column on the game by Bob: http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/don-barclay-is-making-strong-push-to-start-at-right-tackle-b9972477z1-219147971.html

[Teamcheez1]

Sherrod has not played football in 602 days. I have serious doubts about him ever playing a down of football if he still can't get on the practice field.

This should be his last shot with the Packers. I might agree to PUP him for the first 6 weeks of the season, if the coaches are sure he can begin practicing afterwards. Otherwise, I see no reason to waste any more time with him.

[Joemailman]

That is stil mind boggling to me. Bulaga was thought to be a guard by some coming out of college. Sherrod was one of those guys who scouts almost unanimously said couldn't or shouldn't play guard. Worse was the decision to give him only 3rd team reps at LT as Newhouse got the second team snaps.

I would wonder if McCarthy interferes too much here. But one of the few public squabble, he claimed Lang struck him as a Right Tackle and the coaches wanted him at Guard. I still think he is more a tackle than guard.

Ever since it looked like Bulaga might beat out Colledge at LG in 2010 (before the first of his injuries), I've felt he had the potential to be an outstanding Guard. It will be interesting to see what they do next year if Bakhtiari, Barclay and maybe even Sherrod play well at OT this year. I agree that Sherrod looks like strictly an OT to me. When I watched college film of him after the Packers drafted him, I thought he had a lot of similarities with Clifton, both in terms of strong and weak points.

[Patler]

I don't think of Sherrod as a china doll at all. He has had one injury, just hasn't been able to come back from it yet.
Bulaga on the other hand has been hurt on a regular basis, each time something different. A true china doll.

We have gone around in circles about this for several years. In my opinion, Sherrod showed very little (or nothing) his rookie season. Others think differently. Sherrod did not spend the year at guard, only part of training camp. Through out the season, he was a tackle, and given the chance to unseat Newhouse in a couple games late in the season he was unable to do it. In 2011, he wasn't better than the 2011 version of Newhouse. If he was, he would have played, because he had the chance. With no practices since then, and a significant injury to boot, he is probably even worse right now than he was then. Can he overcome that? Maybe, but not likely this year. Maybe with a full off season and TC next year, but I don't expect anything from him this year.

[Joemailman]

Just as a note, Bob McGinn gave some good marks to Lane Taylor at Guard.

Good notes column on the game by Bob: http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/don-barclay-is-making-strong-push-to-start-at-right-tackle-b9972477z1-219147971.html

That's worth noting because McGinn was touting Barclay last year when a lot of people didn't know who he was.

[Joemailman]

I don't think of Sherrod as a china doll at all. He has had one injury, just hasn't been able to come back from it yet.
Bulaga on the other hand has been hurt on a regular basis, each time something different. A true china doll.

We have gone around in circles about this for several years. In my opinion, Sherrod showed very little (or nothing) his rookie season. Others think differently. Sherrod did not spend the year at guard, only part of training camp. Through out the season, he was a tackle, and given the chance to unseat Newhouse in a couple games late in the season he was unable to do it. In 2011, he wasn't better than the 2011 version of Newhouse. If he was, he would have played, because he had the chance. With no practices since then, and a significant injury to boot, he is probably even worse right now than he was then. Can he overcome that? Maybe, but not likely this year. Maybe with a full off season and TC next year, but I don't expect anything from him this year.

The one problem I have with your argument is that in my opinion the coaching staff has tended to overrate Newhouse. So I don't assume that the decision to go with Newhouse over Sherrod in 2011 was necessarily the right decision. These are the same guys who thought Barbre was ready to be a starting RT in 2009. And who tried to give the RT position to Newhouse this year, even though Barclay finished last year as the starter there. Now it looks like Barclay has the edge.

I agree that it is quite possible that Sherrod contributes nothing this year.

[pbmax]

Through out the season, he was a tackle, and given the chance to unseat Newhouse in a couple games late in the season he was unable to do it. In 2011, he wasn't better than the 2011 version of Newhouse. If he was, he would have played, because he had the chance.

I do remember this, but barely and with no details of when or where.

I have twice searched for mentions of it at the GBPG site and at JSO. Turned up nothing for 2011 on this. Can anyone else come up with something (maybe even a PR thread?).

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

I don't think of Sherrod as a china doll at all. He has had one injury, just hasn't been able to come back from it yet.
Bulaga on the other hand has been hurt on a regular basis, each time something different. A true china doll.

We have gone around in circles about this for several years. In my opinion, Sherrod showed very little (or nothing) his rookie season. Others think differently. Sherrod did not spend the year at guard, only part of training camp. Through out the season, he was a tackle, and given the chance to unseat Newhouse in a couple games late in the season he was unable to do it. In 2011, he wasn't better than the 2011 version of Newhouse. If he was, he would have played, because he had the chance. With no practices since then, and a significant injury to boot, he is probably even worse right now than he was then. Can he overcome that? Maybe, but not likely this year. Maybe with a full off season and TC next year, but I don't expect anything from him this year.

I'll give Bulaga a pass since he has shown he can play. He is a starting linemen in the NFL. I agree Sherrod didn't show much as a rookie even when he was healthy. That followed by probably two full years wasted puts the odds of him turning out slim. Its possible he might follow the path of Mike Flanagan or Frank Winters, but its more likely he follows the path of Justin Harrell.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Not sure if this was Harlan's point, but a player at any age who has played for 3 seasons is less likely to get better than player who has not yet made the starting lineup. Now the most likely reason the second player isn't in the lineup is that he stinks, but in Sherrod's case that is still, possibly, untrue.

What we do know is that we have a lot of tape about how Newhouse plays and while he might still be improving, its not going to be by leaps and bounds. I think much of the latter career resurgence of lineman is getting themselves into advantageous situations of scheme, coaching and personnel (ie. free agency or waivers).

Also, two distinct injuries are not better. Maybe less complicated, but not encouraging.

Actually that was MY point. I guess you didn't read all my posts, but decided you would try to explain someones point of view.

I was making the point that its not all about age. For instance, I think Newhouse is as good as he will get. He has started almost two full seasons and hasn't progressed significantly. HH seems to think that all b/c he is young (24) he still may turn out. I then said EDS is also just a good backup (like Newhouse) and he said I was probably right since he is 27.

I wasn't making a point about age, HH was. I actually said since both players, Newhouse & EDS, have played significantly and are still struggling that they are what they are - decent backups.

I want Bakhtiari and Barclay to start. And if Van Rotten has shown something play him too. Its about time we find some decent linemen. Newhouse and EDS are not going to get much better. period.

[wist43]

I really haven't been following the OL drama that is an annual event in Green Bay - I assume MM will make a mess of it like he does every year, with hope being that by week 12 things start to mesh.

That said, I did read that JSO article about Barclay - said MM wanted to use him as a 5 position backup, lol... the man is consistent, I'll give him that.

[mraynrand]

Bulaga on the other hand has been hurt on a regular basis, each time something different. A true china doll.

Injury Prone!

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

I really haven't been following the OL drama that is an annual event in Green Bay - I assume MM will make a mess of it like he does every year, with hope being that by week 12 things start to mesh.

That said, I did read that JSO article about Barclay - said MM wanted to use him as a 5 position backup, lol... the man is consistent, I'll give him that.

I agree with you on this Wist. Why is Barclay being played all over the place, yet Newhouse is handed the starting job. Newhouse is good depth nothing more. Same goes for EDS.

[bobblehead]

Harrell being given four years doesn't mean that Sherrod will too. Sherrod is strictly a tackle and you only carry at most 4 tackles. If Bulaga had stayed healthy the depth would have caught up with him. With Harrell the depth didn't catch up with him until year four. Also, what helped Harrell last that long was b/c they had limited depth during a time we were switching from a 43 defense to a 34 defense. We needed linemen.

Ok, going out on a second limb. CJ Wilson absolutely makes the team.

And:

Derrick Sherrod will still be a packer next TC. He may be PUP or IR this year, he may finish the season on the roster, but he absolutely gets another shot. Its not like Harrell where it was something different every time. One horrific break. Thats it.

[mraynrand]

Newhouse is depth nothing more.

FIFY

[pbmax]

Actually that was MY point. I guess you didn't read all my posts, but decided you would try to explain someones point of view.

I was making the point that its not all about age. For instance, I think Newhouse is as good as he will get. He has started almost two full seasons and hasn't progressed significantly. HH seems to think that all b/c he is young (24) he still may turn out. I then said EDS is also just a good backup (like Newhouse) and he said I was probably right since he is 27.

I wasn't making a point about age, HH was. I actually said since both players, Newhouse & EDS, have played significantly and are still struggling that they are what they are - decent backups.

I want Bakhtiari and Barclay to start. And if Van Rotten has shown something play him too. Its about time we find some decent linemen. Newhouse and EDS are not going to get much better. period.

I apologize for the confusion. I thought you were arguing 3 years, regardless of what age, was enough to know whether a player should be kept or not.

I do, however, hold to the opinion that Bulaga's two injuries are worse from a player availability standpoint than Sherrod's one; unless it ends his career of course :D

[pbmax]

Derrick Sherrod will still be a packer next TC. He may be PUP or IR this year, he may finish the season on the roster, but he absolutely gets another shot. Its not like Harrell where it was something different every time. One horrific break. Thats it.

That is my fear. The lack of info on the rest of the PUP guys is tantamount to stashing them on PUP and then IR for the year.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

I apologize for the confusion. I thought you were arguing 3 years, regardless of what age, was enough to know whether a player should be kept or not.

I do, however, hold to the opinion that Bulaga's two injuries are worse from a player availability standpoint than Sherrod's one; unless it ends his career of course :D

You may very well be right about Bulaga, but at least we know that when he is healthy he can play. Sherrod on the other hand hasn't shown he can play or stay on the field. Hopefully MM lets Barclay and Bakhtiari start. I can at least hope the oline will be good in that scenario.

[pbmax]

That said, I did read that JSO article about Barclay - said MM wanted to use him as a 5 position backup, lol... the man is consistent, I'll give him that.

At this point I think Bob is being a smart ass. Haven't read about Barclay playing LT. And he has had just a smattering of snaps at LG. They were trying to find a replacement for Tretter.

McCarthy said they were reducing the shifting now that Bulaga was gone. I believe that is why so much was seen of the 2nd and 3rd team Guards versus the Cardinals. He had his snaps at center and guard were curtailed in practice too.

[Patler]

I do remember this, but barely and with no details of when or where.

I have twice searched for mentions of it at the GBPG site and at JSO. Turned up nothing for 2011 on this. Can anyone else come up with something (maybe even a PR thread?).

I think I posted a link a month or so ago, to an article following a game in which Newhouse and Sherrod rotated at LT by series, following a week in which they were said to have shared practice time with the first line. The next week Newhouse was the starter alone. (Maybe I posted it somewhere else? :oops:)

[Patler]

Her is one:

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20111211/PKR01/111211046/Packers-mix-Derek-Sherrod-into-offensive-line-rotation

[pbmax]

I cannot imagine why this article doesn't turn up in an advanced Google search for Newhouse+Sherrod and greenbaypressgazette.com

OK. So they split reps in practice (Newhouse said the week prior to Oakland was not different than previous practices and Sherrod kind of backs him up saying he was not aware anything had changed) and he got snaps in one game. Given the way the team preps for game weeks, that's very limited contact and often nothing but shells. It would also seem to be during the time Clifton was out but Bulaga was healthy.

Its still an evaluation during a poor time to evaluate.

Newhouse's one advantage (and its a big one) is availability. Its makes him predictable and I think safe to coaches. But at some point its got to be Sherrod getting those live reps or they continue to fall into this trap. It might have happened to Barclay this year up until he outperformed Newhouse in a preseason game.

Now, all my hope depends upon Sherrod actually practicing, but should he become available, he needs more than Game Week practice snaps to overcome a starter.

[Guiness]

I do remember this, but barely and with no details of when or where.

I have twice searched for mentions of it at the GBPG site and at JSO. Turned up nothing for 2011 on this. Can anyone else come up with something (maybe even a PR thread?).

I looked this up a bit, using gamebooks from NFL and put what I found in another thread...too lazy to find it now though. Essentially, he got on the field a couple of times when Clifton then Bulaga got hurt but it did seem like Newhouse was ahead of him in the depth chart.

I don't see how Newhouse can be cut this year. Does the Pack have another LT after Bakhtiari? Who got minutes after he came out of the preseason game? If Newhouse were to be cut, I bet Lang would be the 2nd string LT because Datko is not getting significant reps there.

[Guiness]

I think I posted a link a month or so ago, to an article following a game in which Newhouse and Sherrod rotated at LT by series, following a week in which they were said to have shared practice time with the first line. The next week Newhouse was the starter alone. (Maybe I posted it somewhere else? :oops:)

No, it was here because that was the same thread that I dug through the gamebooks looking for info.

All this talk about Sherrod...I'd love to know how close he is to seeing the field in any way, shape or form. I assume the Packers are being careful with him because they want to be sure he can play, otherwise by stepping on the field he loses his PUP eligibility.

[Patler]

I cannot imagine why this article doesn't turn up in an advanced Google search for Newhouse+Sherrod and greenbaypressgazette.com

OK. So they split reps in practice (Newhouse said the week prior to Oakland was not different than previous practices and Sherrod kind of backs him up saying he was not aware anything had changed) and he got snaps in one game. Given the way the team preps for game weeks, that's very limited contact and often nothing but shells. It would also seem to be during the time Clifton was out but Bulaga was healthy.

Its still an evaluation during a poor time to evaluate.

Newhouse's one advantage (and its a big one) is availability. Its makes him predictable and I think safe to coaches. But at some point its got to be Sherrod getting those live reps or they continue to fall into this trap. It might have happened to Barclay this year up until he outperformed Newhouse in a preseason game.

Now, all my hope depends upon Sherrod actually practicing, but should he become available, he needs more than Game Week practice snaps to overcome a starter.

Newhouse went through the same evaluation as Sherrod in 2011. Newhouse wasn't a starter in 2011 TC, or when the season started. He was a forgotten man who had done nothing the year before (a healthy scratch for every game before ending the season on IR). No one was counting on Newhouse for anything when camp started. Clifton started the first 6 regular season games. Newhouse first played in place of Bulaga at RT, even started there. When Clifton went down, Newhouse was bounced over there as the starter, and Bulaga came back. The Packers were holding on by a string, yet Sherrod was unable to unseat Newhouse at either tackle position then or later in the year when given the chance. After getting extensive playing time against Okland, with Newhouse being moved to RT and even guard, the next week Sherrod was back on the bench and Newhouse was starting.

I suspect that at the time the Packers would have been thrilled for Sherrod to take over for Newhouse, and probably gave him every opportunity to do so.

Unlike the year before, when Bulaga came on to start at RT without ever even practicing there until the week before his start, after having spent most of the preseason at LG, Sherrod was not able to step up his game and pass Newhouse at any time. Newhouse was the next guy up on both the right and left sides.

[Harlan Huckleby]

So if Sherrod comes in the league at 21 and misses his first three years he still has hope because he's 24.

Sherrod has only been healthy for two months, much of that time trying to play guard. Talk of hitting or missing is silly, regardless of his age.

Allen Barbre played very well in spot duty his second reason (despite some incorrect reports to the contrary.) His second year on-the-field performance is why there was so much positive buzz going into year 3. It is easy to get fooled.


Yet, if he comes in at say 23 and misses his first three seasons he's done b/c he's almost 27? It's not all about age.
Age is important. It's worse to suck at 27 than at 24. That's all I'll say about it, the more extreme statements you are making are straw men.



And for every Frank Winters there are 100 players who get a chance to play, proceed to suck, and are kicked to the curb. Difference is those 100 is no one remembers them. Just like no one will remember Newhouse in 2-3 years.
A lot of offensive linemen cut by the Packers have gone on to have decent NFL careers. I can't think of names right now.
Odds are Newhouse will be out of the league, but at 24 he might still have an upside, he's not a slug like half the linemen that start out in camp.


Bulaga now will miss two seasons, but he is not damaged goods like Sherrod. Bulaga is a proven talent. Physically, he has missed significant playing time in all three of his seasons, and will log about 1 season of playing time total. One of his injuries was particular significant. From an injury standpoint, he is similar to Sherrod.

[Harlan Huckleby]

IMO if he was remoted ready at LT he'd have been practicing there
I forget, didn't they still plan on having Clifton that year?

The team was trying to use Sherrod as a swing linemen to get some use out of him, which is not a bad idea for a 1st rounder. I thought it was a good idea at the time, but it didn't work.

[Harlan Huckleby]

But if BB is a China Doll Sherrod is nothing short of the second coming at Justin Harrell at this point

Sherrod is certainly on the Justin HArrell Express, career arc-wise.

I am very quick to judge a player harshly. I criticized Newhouse early and often , mostly because so many people kept saying he was gonna be fine.

On the other hand, I am very slow to say a player will never become a good starter. I'm still not there with Newhouse, although he is on double secret probation. Sherrod - I was not so disappointed in his brief work at tackle as others. I am far from giving up on him as a football player, I'm anxious for him to get his chance, but maybe the big injury will be a big dagger.

[pbmax]

Newhouse went through the same evaluation as Sherrod in 2011. Newhouse wasn't a starter in 2011 TC, or when the season started. He was a forgotten man who had done nothing the year before (a healthy scratch for every game before ending the season on IR). No one was counting on Newhouse for anything when camp started. Clifton started the first 6 regular season games. Newhouse first played in place of Bulaga at RT, even started there. When Clifton went down, Newhouse was bounced over there as the starter, and Bulaga came back. The Packers were holding on by a string, yet Sherrod was unable to unseat Newhouse at either tackle position then or later in the year when given the chance. After getting extensive playing time against Okland, with Newhouse being moved to RT and even guard, the next week Sherrod was back on the bench and Newhouse was starting.

I suspect that at the time the Packers would have been thrilled for Sherrod to take over for Newhouse, and probably gave him every opportunity to do so.

Unlike the year before, when Bulaga came on to start at RT without ever even practicing there until the week before his start, after having spent most of the preseason at LG, Sherrod was not able to step up his game and pass Newhouse at any time. Newhouse was the next guy up on both the right and left sides.

Thrilled yes, but unwilling with a more proven body. It seems safe (and obvious) to conclude that Newhouse was even or slightly ahead of Sherrod at this point. His experience might have been his edge or the tiebreaker, but it was on his side of the ledger in either case.

I just deleted a small novella recalling their first year experiences. Let me instead just sum up my theory on Sherrod's inability to unseat Newhouse in his rookie year.

Minus the rookie camp, OTAs and mini-camp, Sherrod needed enough work that time at Guard meant he was not going to surpass Newhouse easily in his first year. Newhouse had an experience edge even before his first snaps of the season, by virtue of working his second camp almost entirely at Left and Right Tackle. That experience made his more likely to be active than LT/LG Sherrod in Week 1 as well, even if they had been close at the end of camp.

So I don't hold that performance against him too much. More troubling is that now, instead of just Newhouse to overcome, he has to overcome the shadow of Bulaga.

Sherrod needs practice reps and playing time. Somewhere.

[pbmax]

I forget, didn't they still plan on having Clifton that year?

The team was trying to use Sherrod as a swing linemen to get some use out of him, which is not a bad idea for a 1st rounder. I thought it was a good idea at the time, but it didn't work.

Yes, Clifton was still there (assuming Bretsky is talking about 2011 and not this year). Sherrod was given the task of competing with Lang at LG.

[Patler]

Yes, Clifton was still there (assuming Bretsky is talking about 2011 and not this year). Sherrod was given the task of competing with Lang at LG.

Right. In 2011, Lang was not a sure thing at LG. He had had a very disappointing 2010, and the thinking was that Sherrod could maybe play a year as the starter at LG, before sliding outside to replace Clifton in another year or so.

[Joemailman]

It's amazing we're having this discussion. After Bulaga played pretty well as a rookie in 2010, and TT drafted Sherrod in the 2011 draft, I thought the Packers were set at OT for the next decade. 2 years later, it looks like the starting OT's will be a rookie 4th round pick, and an UDFA. Just goes to show what injuries can do even to the best laid plans.

[swede]

I don't see how Newhouse can be cut this year. Does the Pack have another LT after Bakhtiari? Who got minutes after he came out of the preseason game?

Rodgers is comfortable with Newhouse at LT. They understand each other. When Newhouse has failed to take a speed rusher far enough to the outside, or if he has failed to anticipate an inside move, or if has not made the right read against a stunt he lets Aaron know quickly and efficiently that a D lineman is coming:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIaFtAKnqBU

[mraynrand]

A lot of offensive linemen cut by the Packers have gone on to have decent NFL careers. I can't think of names right now.

Breno Giacomini will be the next big-name former-Packer success. But he had to get on Seattle's "Weight-lifting" program to make it happen...

[pbmax]

Breno Giacomini will be the next big-name former-Packer success. But he had to get on Seattle's "Weight-lifting" program to make it happen...

When does his four game suspension kick in?

[Harlan Huckleby]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/don-barclay-is-making-strong-push-to-start-at-right-tackle-b9972477z1-219147971.html

After reading McGinn's very fair analysis of the tackles, I come away thinking Newhouse and Barclay are going to have a heck of battle for the RT job. I think perhaps it is God's plan for Barclay to win because he was created as a RT and Newhouse came from the LT bin. But I will not be shocked if Newhouse gets his act together and starts, he's bigger and more athletic.

[Joemailman]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/don-barclay-is-making-strong-push-to-start-at-right-tackle-b9972477z1-219147971.html

After reading McGinn's very fair analysis of the tackles, I come away thinking Newhouse and Barclay are going to have a heck of battle for the RT job. I think perhaps it is God's plan for Barclay to win because he was created as a RT and Newhouse came from the LT bin. But I will not be shocked if Newhouse gets his act together and starts, he's bigger and more athletic.

You're right. Newhouse is bigger, and has quicker feet. But Barclay finishes plays better and doesn't whiff like Newhouse does on some plays. It's talent vs. consistency, and I hope they go with consistency.

[wist43]

Breno Giacomini will be the next big-name former-Packer success. But he had to get on Seattle's "Weight-lifting" program to make it happen...

Packers don't have a weight lifting program - it's all about pilates and yoga...

I'd bet we're the most flexible team in the NFL - probably the most serene too :)

[denverYooper]

Light dawns on Marblehead. Or not.

[Harlan Huckleby]

You're right. Newhouse is bigger, and has quicker feet. But Barclay finishes plays better and doesn't whiff like Newhouse does on some plays. It's talent vs. consistency, and I hope they go with consistency.

You've adopted a tragically incorrect position, and I urge you to seek redemption.

I appreciate where you're coming from, you don't think much of those fast walking, no talking, drop-and-run, brownshirt muscle-men from U**. Totally understandable.

Sports is a different world. Consistency is ultimate goal, but you can't improve on physical talent. Always, always, always hope that the faster, bigger stronger guy wins - it's more hopeful. Be patient with consistency.

Case in point: the Badgers have 4 QBs in camp with some shot to win the job. All the sportswriters say that the redshirt freshman, Bart Houston, has the best throwing arm, and its not even close. He's not thought the likely starter because he is very green, the other three guys have playing experiencing.

I have started a "Fresh Start with Bart" campaign. The position coach says he is looking for the QB with the best mind. Fine, then develop the mind of the guy who can complete a goddamn pass 25 yards down the field.

[KYPack]

This is a good thread, altho I dunno if I understand this last bit from HH.

Last season the NFL started a new designation, injured reserve with a designation to return.

The return is the 9th week.

I don't think we used it last season, but Sherry (or Tretter?) might be a candidate this season.

[Guiness]

This is a good thread, altho I dunno if I understand this last bit from HH.

Last season the NFL started a new designation, injured reserve with a designation to return.

The return is the 9th week.

I don't think we used it last season, but Sherry (or Tretter?) might be a candidate this season.

Can't see it being Tretter, is there much point in rushing back a rookie who's never seen the NFL field? Especially an OL? Maybe for a special, start from Day 1, Joe Thomas style of guy, but I don't think the Pack picked up one of those on the third day of the draft. And Sherrod's in pretty much the same spot, i.e. no NFL experience at this point.

I get what HH is saying about physical talent, and he's generally right. Half of us here got cut from the high school basketball team for the 6'4" klutz that couldn't walk and chew bubblegum.

[hoosier]

This is a good thread, altho I dunno if I understand this last bit from HH.

Last season the NFL started a new designation, injured reserve with a designation to return.

The return is the 9th week.

I don't think we used it last season, but Sherry (or Tretter?) might be a candidate this season.

I believe they only get to make that designation once, and if that's correct then no reason to waste it on Sherrod or Tretter when both are already PUP'ed. If the recovery is going well, either one can be activated sometime during weeks 6-9.

[Guiness]

I believe they only get to make that designation once, and if that's correct then no reason to waste it on Sherrod or Tretter when both are already PUP'ed. If the recovery is going well, either one can be activated sometime during weeks 6-9.

I think Tretter does not qualify for PUP because he practiced and got hurt in TC. I still don't think he's a candidate for the temporary IR for the reasons I gave above.

[Patler]

I think Tretter does not qualify for PUP because he practiced and got hurt in TC. I still don't think he's a candidate for the temporary IR for the reasons I gave above.

I think Tretter does qualify for PUP. The cutoff date is the first day of preseason training camp. Tretter was a no-go on that day. I don't think it matters that he was hurt in OTAs in May.

[hoosier]

Tretter was put on the PUP on July 25. http://www.nfl.com/transactions?transactionMonth=&transactionYear=&transactionTeamAbbr=GB&prevTransactionMonth=0&prevTransactionYear=0&prevTransactionTeamAbbr=

[Smidgeon]

Ok, going out on a second limb. CJ Wilson absolutely makes the team.

And:

Derrick Sherrod will still be a packer next TC. He may be PUP or IR this year, he may finish the season on the roster, but he absolutely gets another shot. Its not like Harrell where it was something different every time. One horrific break. Thats it.

I thought Harrell's thing was one thing (at least in the NFL): the back over and over. Who was the trainer who ruined his career again?

[Smidgeon]

I think Tretter does not qualify for PUP because he practiced and got hurt in TC. I still don't think he's a candidate for the temporary IR for the reasons I gave above.

Both Sherrod and Tretter are on the PUP. Bulaga is going on IR. So far, I'm not sure someone has been injured since training camp opened who'll be out long enough to utilize the Designated to Return IR.

[mraynrand]

Breno Giacomini will be the next big-name former-Packer success. But he had to get on Seattle's "Weight-lifting" program to make it happen...


When does his four game suspension kick in?

a couple weeks after he retires.

[pittstang5]

Preseason PUP list: A player who, as a result of football-related injuries, is unable to take part in training camp practices may be assigned to the preseason PUP list. Players can be moved off the PUP list to the active roster at any time, even after one practice. A player cannot be placed on the PUP list, however, once he has taken the field for a practice, even if only for a few minutes.

Regular Season PUP list: A player who finishes the preseason still on the PUP list can then be placed on the regular-season PUP list. Such players must sit out the first six games their team plays. At that point, teams have a three-week window in which to allow the player to begin practicing; from the day the player begins practicing, teams have an additional three-week window in which to decide whether to activate the player to the 53-man roster. If either of those deadlines pass, the player must remain on the PUP list for the remainder of the season.[



When the Packers opened up training camp, 7 players did not pass their physicals and were put on the Preseason PUP list:

Neal
Tretter
Sherrod
Harris
Worthy
Richardson
Powell

I think, Neal has been the only player to come off that list.


So, IMO, If Sherrod can't get off the Preseason PUP list, then gets put on the Regular Season PUP list, he might as well stay on that PUP list for the remainder of the year, put on IR or released - He'll be too far behind, again, after the first 6 weeks of the regular season, imo, to contribute.

[bobblehead]

I thought Harrell's thing was one thing (at least in the NFL): the back over and over. Who was the trainer who ruined his career again?

he came in "out of shape" and was still suffering from his bicep injury in his senior year. When that healed he had a back injury, then a reoccurrence of that injury. Finally he blew out his knee and it was all over.

[Guiness]

When the Packers opened up training camp, 7 players did not pass their physicals and were put on the Preseason PUP list:

Neal
Tretter
Sherrod
Harris
Worthy
Richardson
Powell



Tramon was not on it? Doesn't seem like he practiced much.

[pbmax]

a couple weeks after he retires.

Ah. The ARod plan.

[Pugger]

http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb449/route25/tackles.jpg (http://s1206.photobucket.com/user/route25/media/tackles.jpg.html)

Did you see Newhouse whiff on that guy? We got it made!!

:lol:

[Pugger]

I forgot that he missed an entire year, I was thinking of 2011 as 2012.

I still think he will get another training camp, but he is approaching JH territory.

The difference between DS and JH is a player can come back from a broken leg but a back issue? Not so much.

[Pugger]

He's shown every little IMO with the Green Bay Packers. Many rookie OL we've drafted over the past five years showed better than Justine Sherry when he was actually playing.
He has the look of at OT on paper but he's shown little. IF he were in camp IMO he'd be cut
No surprise if they hide him on IR again; that is his home

They were trying to make him a guard and he ain't no guard. Once they put him back at tackle he started to show some improvement until he broke his leg.

[RashanGary]

You guys, Sherrod never showed what Bahktiari is showing right now. He never showed what Barclay is showing. Hell, he never even showed what Newhouse showed 2 years ago and Newhouse has come a long way in 2 years.

The feel I get from the OL is this.

Bahktiari/Sitton/EDS/Lang/Barclay

Swing tackle is Marshall Newhouse
Swing inside player is Greg Van Rotten
Taylor, Datko and Sherrod are fighting for one or two positions



The best case for Sherrod is to be the 9th offensive lineman, a complete developmental prospect based on his body and physical talent. He's going to be worse than he was before the injury and he was already worse than Newhouse two years ago. He has a long, long way to go. If he got to practice a full year without having to play, then had a good offseason, he'd be in prime position to make a move. I'd like to see him stick. True NFL LT's are hard to find. Sherrod has that potential. That is well worth the 53rd spot on any roster, even if you're dealing with a project.

[Zool]

You guys, Sherrod never showed what Bahktiari is showing right now. He never showed what Barclay is showing. Hell, he never even showed what Newhouse showed 2 years ago and Newhouse has come a long way in 2 years.

The feel I get from the OL is this.

Bahktiari/Sitton/EDS/Lang/Barclay

Swing tackle is Marshall Newhouse
Swing inside player is Greg Van Rotten
Taylor, Datko and Sherrod are fighting for one or two positions



The best case for Sherrod is to be the 9th offensive lineman, a complete developmental prospect based on his body and physical talent. He's going to be worse than he was before the injury and he was already worse than Newhouse two years ago. He has a long, long way to go. If he got to practice a full year without having to play, then had a good offseason, he'd be in prime position to make a move. I'd like to see him stick. True NFL LT's are hard to find. Sherrod has that potential. That is well worth the 53rd spot on any roster, even if you're dealing with a project.

During his time on the DL, has he been able to lift weights with the team? Have to assume his upper body would be better than his rookie year at least.

[pbmax]

As is he might be the best pass blocker on the team. Bakhtiari did a nice job Friday and might give him a run for his money, but Barclay and Newhouse can't touch Sherrod in pass blocking.

Didn't do it enough? Sure. Not a drive blocker or prone to whiffs on run blocks? Quite possibly. Pass blocking? Its what he is built to do.

He has a kick step only Bulaga can match and he is big, tall and long enough to control edge rushers. Each of the other three struggle with speed outside.

Even his pass blocking misses in preseason at tackle showed promise. He would setup correctly and get a stunt or inside move and not be fast enough to adjust or read it. But when his hands landed on the guy, it was over. He needs reps to learn to feel or call the stunts and read the inside counters.

[Bretsky]

QUOTE=JustinHarrell;732897]You guys, Sherrod never showed what Bahktiari is showing right now. He never showed what Barclay is showing. Hell, he never even showed what Newhouse showed 2 years ago and Newhouse has come a long way in 2 years.

The feel I get from the OL is this.

Bahktiari/Sitton/EDS/Lang/Barclay

Swing tackle is Marshall Newhouse
Swing inside player is Greg Van Rotten
Taylor, Datko and Sherrod are fighting for one or two positions



The best case for Sherrod is to be the 9th offensive lineman, a complete developmental prospect based on his body and physical talent. He's going to be worse than he was before the injury and he was already worse than Newhouse two years ago. He has a long, long way to go. If he got to practice a full year without having to play, then had a good offseason, he'd be in prime position to make a move. I'd like to see him stick. True NFL LT's are hard to find. Sherrod has that potential. That is well worth the 53rd spot on any roster, even if you're dealing with a project.[/QUOTE]



:bclap::bclap::bclap::bclap::bclap:

[Bretsky]

As is he might be the best pass blocker on the team. Bakhtiari did a nice job Friday and might give him a run for his money, but Barclay and Newhouse can't touch Sherrod in pass blocking.

Didn't do it enough? Sure. Not a drive blocker or prone to whiffs on run blocks? Quite possibly. Pass blocking? Its what he is built to do.

He has a kick step only Bulaga can match and he is big, tall and long enough to control edge rushers. Each of the other three struggle with speed outside.

Even his pass blocking misses in preseason at tackle showed promise. He would setup correctly and get a stunt or inside move and not be fast enough to adjust or read it. But when his hands landed on the guy, it was over. He needs reps to learn to feel or call the stunts and read the inside counters.


Drunk on Homer Juice IMO

Perhaps his wing span....and physique lead to him having potential.......but he's shown very very little of it IMO

[Bretsky]

QUOTE=JustinHarrell;732897]You guys, Sherrod never showed what Bahktiari is showing right now. He never showed what Barclay is showing. Hell, he never even showed what Newhouse showed 2 years ago and Newhouse has come a long way in 2 years.

The feel I get from the OL is this.

Bahktiari/Sitton/EDS/Lang/Barclay

Swing tackle is Marshall Newhouse
Swing inside player is Greg Van Rotten
Taylor, Datko and Sherrod are fighting for one or two positions



The best case for Sherrod is to be the 9th offensive lineman, a complete developmental prospect based on his body and physical talent. He's going to be worse than he was before the injury and he was already worse than Newhouse two years ago. He has a long, long way to go. If he got to practice a full year without having to play, then had a good offseason, he'd be in prime position to make a move. I'd like to see him stick. True NFL LT's are hard to find. Sherrod has that potential. That is well worth the 53rd spot on any roster, even if you're dealing with a project.



:bclap::bclap::bclap::bclap::bclap:[/QUOTE]



ABOVE was JH's post and I need to give credit; it actually made me go find how the hell to use the FiVE CLAPPER again

[Bretsky]

They were trying to make him a guard and he ain't no guard. Once they put him back at tackle he started to show some improvement until he broke his leg.


This seems to be the Homer consensus (my created term in here)...........it sounds like only three of us......myself...Patler...and Justin Harrell see it very differently. I saw a couple plays he did ok on in the one game but I didn't see nearly enough to even open the Homer Can. And besides that a lot of bad film. Some improvment from horrific doesn't cut it for me.

I hope you guys are right though.

[wist43]

During his time on the DL, has he been able to lift weights with the team? Have to assume his upper body would be better than his rookie year at least.

Yeah, he's bulked up a little bit... now if he could only play?? :clap:

http://digilander.libero.it/aaaawwww/black/black-female-bodybuilder-5.jpg

[George Cumby]

Yeah, he's bulked up a little bit... now if he could only play?? :clap:

http://digilander.libero.it/aaaawwww/black/black-female-bodybuilder-5.jpg

I knew Condi Rice took care of herself, but DAMN!

Like Bretsky, I think Justin is spot on.

PB, I don't remember seeing enough of Sherrod to formulate an opinion. What did you see in Sheerod to have such a high opinion of him? And when?

[HarveyWallbangers]

Well, I looked for video and only found highlights of one preseason game in Green Bay.

Here he's playing a new position at LG. He does a nice job with the stunt by chipping the first guy and getting back to stop the stunt inside.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWUy1z7HdCU

At LT in the same game, he stones the rusher. Unlike Newhouse, he stuck with his block also.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh2qR2NpElM

Here he is beat by an inside move, but Rodgers gets the ball off before being sacked:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8miUe6B7ieg

Here he makes a nice downfield block as a LG:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LzQOY7rElY

Dude is 6'6" 320 with good athletic ability. Personally, I hope he gets healthy because he has a lot of potential.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taaxYtUsefo

After Justin Harrell and his injuries, it's hard not to think his career is basically over before it began though.

[RashanGary]

Ted Thompson took a huge risk when he drafted Sherrod. The risk is that he used a 1st round draft pick on an offensive lineman who's coming in with rudimentary blocking fundamentals. The reason it's such a risk, and the reason you see certain schools pump OL into the NFL over all others is that you never quite know it a guy will be able to do it the NFL way and almost nobody can do it in the NFL any other way than the NFL way. Pass blocking is a true science. In the NFL, with the best of the best, everybody does it exactly the same. Only a few college teams teach it the NFL way. There are easier ways to get an elite athlete to perform in college, ways less detailed or demanding of fundamental excellence.

The risk took the worst possible turn. A guy who needed time to work on fundamentals didn't get an offseason because of the strike. After that, he was quickly injured. Now we're looking at a 24 year old rookie coming off a serious injury with muscle atrophy. It's a big fucking problem.

Now, here's to the upside of that swing for the fences. Sherrod has true, unique talent. The way he moves at his size in pass pro is elite. It's rare. I imagine he's going to be kept around, even if he were the 10th OL. His ceiling is so high, ted drafted him before he was ready to play. At this point, the pick is already spent. Now it's just the 53rd roster spot that he has to pay to find out if he can do it.

I'm completely off the Sherrod train when it comes to beating out Barclay, Bahktiari or Newhouse for playing time this season (unless it's the end of the season and he gets healthy real quick.) I'm completely on his train if it means keeping him around to see if he can get healthy and be the special type of talent some of his tape makes you think he could be.

He's a good guy. He comes to work. He's a team guy. He's dedicated, smart, hard working. . . He has elite talent. He's still a hell of a prospect still. I see no reason to part ways, but I think this board and everywhere else needs to seriously temper any early expectations. I know we want it to happen, but lets accept, the guy has glaring holes in his technique and he's coming of a serious lower body injury. Anybody taking an honest look at how he performed healthy would see it that way. The key word there is honest. HOnestly, everything has gone wrong for him and he wasn't ready.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Looking back at posts on how Sherrod played his rookie year, I find this:

Most thought he he played a good game the week prior to the Rams game:
http://packerrats.com/showthread.php?22950-Who-starts-at-tackle-tomorrow&highlight=derek+sherrod
http://packerrats.com/showthread.php?22888-QB-pressure&highlight=derek+sherrod

And Patler was off the Sherrod bandwagon really early... after a couple of preseason games out of position at OG--in which the strike took away all offseason practice. I don't remember a lot of the specifics. Apparently, Sherrod got off to a good start but had a couple of bad preseason games, and most didn't think he could contribute much because of the lack of offseason work. When he actually played in the regular season, he acquitted himself better than some feared. That's my take. And that's mostly the take I remember.
http://packerrats.com/showthread.php?22568-Will-Sherrod-be-ready-to-contribute-this-year&highlight=derek+sherrod

Being called a homer when I don't consider myself a homer is insulting. Yes, I'm an optimistic realist, but I think I generally call them the way I see them--with hope that things will work out. The team has been pretty damn successful, so I'd think most would be optimistic realists.

After the first preseason game of that same year, I'll quote Lurker, so it wasn't like he was awful. He was inconsistent, but I think some were pretty excited about his potential.
http://packerrats.com/showthread.php?22514-Official-quot-Jump-to-Conclusions-Based-on-the-First-Preseason-Game-Thread-quot/page2&highlight=derek+sherrod


No matter who wins the LG spot between Sherrod and Lang, we'll be at least okay there.

[HarveyWallbangers]

In that last thread, even JH was even pretty optimistic about Sherrod after the first preseason game.
:)


Sherrod = Lang at guard
Sherrod = Lang at tackle
Sherrod = Higher upside
I don't think playing Sherrod at guard is going to hurt him. He could win it.

And KY was impressed also:


I agree with Harlan here, that can't be right, is it? I think Lang and Sherrod are good ones. Lang is your starter and Sherrod can fill at two left OL spots. Both of these guys have really good footwork. In the first half, the Brown RDE tried one of those "banana" edge moves. Sherrod stayed cool and moved right with the guy. He made 3 excellent slide steps and then checked the DE on the backside of the QB. He's a kid, but he's got the makings of an good LT someday.

I'm still looking for the post I might have made that would leave me with egg on my face.
:)

[RashanGary]

Well, my comparison was to Lang, who sucked at tackle and at that point in his career was so/so at guard. I'm comfortable with my observations at the time. Guy has potential. He's just not ready and he's had a horrible stroke of luck.

[HarveyWallbangers]

On a side note from JSO's daily camp report:

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/camp-report-a-look-at-packers-monday-practice-b9973996z1-219357681.html


T Derek Sherrod progressed enough to perform some individual drills Monday with position coach James Campen.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Well, my comparison was to Lang, who sucked at tackle and at that point in his career was so/so at guard. I'm comfortable with my observations at the time. Guy has potential. He's just not ready and he's had a horrible stroke of luck.

Most were comparing Sherrod to Lang at OG. (The loser of the starting OG spot was auditioning as a backup OT.) Clifton and Bulaga were still playing at the OT spots, so the fact he was a shitty tackle didn't really factor into the evaluation. And most felt like Lang was looking pretty good at OG--which turned out to be prophetic for the Packer Rats because Lang went on to have a pretty good year as the starting LG.

[RashanGary]

We're not that far off, HW. Sherrod has a chance. I just think he's coming into a more competitive situation and he's no better than he was when he went down as he's done nothing to improve his game since. I think we both think he's not likely to start over one of the guys we have this year, right? He's gonna need time to get his game together?

I'm not calling him a failure, just a high-risk pick that's had a lot of thigns go wrong so far. I hope for the best and can envisino it too. I just think it's far more realistic to think he's going to be our 4th tackle this year, with the potential to be our #1 next year.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Look, I don't remember him looking stellar immediately, but I don't think he looked awful. He had some bad moments, but it's not Allen Barbre we are talking about. Just looking at the videos you can see a guy who has intriguing talent, if he was able to sharpen his game (e.g. become more consistent). The fact he didn't have any offseason work and was playing out of position at OG much of the time puts into perspective what he was trying to do. (Not to mention the fact that you even acknowledged at the time that the kid was raw because of where he played college ball.) It didn't always go well, but he obviously had some good and bad moments both in the preseason and the regular season, and flashed some good potential. He was also 6'6" 320 with serious athletic ability.

[HarveyWallbangers]

We're not that far off, HW. Sherrod has a chance. I just think he's coming into a more competitive situation and he's no better than he was when he went down as he's done nothing to improve his game since.

Very true, but I want to see him get healthy and get some practice because he probably still has the most upside of any of these OT candidates.

[RashanGary]

Very true, but I want to see him get healthy and get some practice because he probably still has the most upside of any of these OT candidates.



Yeah, for sure, and I'm with you that TT is a pretty good GM. There's a good chance Sherrod has some things that are NFL worthy. Most of Ted's high picks that bust, bust because of injury, not being bad football players.

[George Cumby]

Well, I looked for video and only found highlights of one preseason game in Green Bay.

Here he's playing a new position at LG. He does a nice job with the stunt by chipping the first guy and getting back to stop the stunt inside.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWUy1z7HdCU

At LT in the same game, he stones the rusher. Unlike Newhouse, he stuck with his block also.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh2qR2NpElM

Here he is beat by an inside move, but Rodgers gets the ball off before being sacked:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8miUe6B7ieg

Here he makes a nice downfield block as a LG:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LzQOY7rElY

Dude is 6'6" 320 with good athletic ability. Personally, I hope he gets healthy because he has a lot of potential.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taaxYtUsefo

After Justin Harrell and his injuries, it's hard not to think his career is basically over before it began though.

Thanks, Harv.

The kid can move, can't he?

[pbmax]

PB, I don't remember seeing enough of Sherrod to formulate an opinion. What did you see in Sheerod to have such a high opinion of him? And when?

Well, my memory of this season is fading as I discovered a couple of months ago when I was convinced it was the Redskins he came in against to sub for Newhouse who had to move left for injured Clifton. Joe had to set me straight that it was versus the Falcons (Game#5). He did get what might be some scrub snaps the week before versus Denver (gm4). After Bulaga came back, Sherrod only saw some snaps in Game 9 versus the Vikes.

He split the Oakland game (#13, this is what Patler is referring to above) after having gotten practice reps at Left Tackle, competing with Newhouse. He did not start but went into the game after a Bulaga injury versus KC (#14) and then the rest of his time is speculation.

When he played in preseason, there were two things evident. He simply did not have the small space quickness or low level power (drive blocking) to be an elite Guard. He was clearly not in the mold of a Rivera or traditional Guard. He might have developed into a Wahle type, where power is not his game but technique, leverage, arms and movement are used. But he was not that player yet and it might be wise to remember Wahle looked like he was failing at two positions before figuring Guard out in Year 3 I think. As the scouts say, he wasn't a natural here.

But even at Guard where he could look like an out of position rookie, when he locked on to someone in pass pro, he did not lose his guy. They didn't blow by him and they did not disengage. Now sometimes he went one way and the play went another but early he looked most like a rookie sorting it out.

At tackle, you then saw his feet which are better than Newhouse's, his kick step (first movement out of stance to begin pass block) and punch. The first two were better than anyone else on the roster except Clifton and maybe Bulaga. His punch wasn't much and he might have needed to be stronger here.

But even catching the rushing end, he locked on and did not let his guy go. It wasn't Lang who was too aggressive and would lunge or lean one way and get beat by a counter move. It wasn't Newhouse who made an initial punch but often loses contact. I also think he was more stubborn than Newhouse if the end went wide, but they were fewer instances of that happening. He simply could take his guy where he wanted.

As I am sure Justin has pointed out somewhere in this thread, his run blocking was meh, he was essentially a big body in the way. He is not a drive blocker. But Clifton was the same guy and played at an Pro Bowl level for a decade. As Baranczyk pointed out, a big body standing up in the way, getting a draw, is sometimes all you need. He needed work and reps with the run blocking. But he is very smart and he would have continued to get better.

Outside of the college offense angle, his resume screams success. Best lineman on his team, won conference awards, started a ton of games. But he needs to get on the field.

I just don't understand the urge to say we did not see it in camp therefore it doesn't exist. Clifton didn't win the job in camp. Wahle failed Clifton into a starter.

[Zool]

Being called a homer when I don't consider myself a homer is insulting.

Here's a handy legend I've developed in my time here.

If you disagree with Wist you're a moron who can't make logical decisions.
If you disagree with Bretsky, you're a homer.

[Fritz]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/don-barclay-is-making-strong-push-to-start-at-right-tackle-b9972477z1-219147971.html

After reading McGinn's very fair analysis of the tackles, I come away thinking Newhouse and Barclay are going to have a heck of battle for the RT job. I think perhaps it is God's plan for Barclay to win because he was created as a RT and Newhouse came from the LT bin. But I will not be shocked if Newhouse gets his act together and starts, he's bigger and more athletic.


I like this idea - God up in heaven, all white robes and flowing white beard, wondering who should start for the Packers at left tackle.

Belichek, of course, is the Faust of the NFL and will be chumming around with Aaron Hernandez in hell. St. Vince, on the other hand, will be ushering the new guys through St. Peter's gate and whispering in God's ear that they need to be patient with Sherrod and in the meantime, they ought to start that tough kid, Barclay, at right tackle.

[mraynrand]

T Derek Sherrod progressed enough to perform some individual drills Monday with position coach James Campen.

and Campen beat him

[denverYooper]

and Campen beat him

heh heh. When guys keep saying that Bakhitiari is well coached I keep thinking "they'll fix that"

[pbmax]

Forgot about this:




TomSilverstein: Derek Sherrod has a knee sprain. Both he and Cobb may come back this week. B.Jones has a knee sprain and is day to day. [via Twitter]Was he playing with an injury Friday night? If he was, could possibly explain some of his problems Friday night.

Anyone remember how much time this cost him? Was this when lang moved to Guard full time and Sherrod to tackle when he came back?

[pbmax]

And oh the heady days of Sampson Genus. Where is he today?

[wist43]

Here's a handy legend I've developed in my time here.

If you disagree with Wist you're a moron who can't make logical decisions.
If you disagree with Bretsky, you're a homer.

hear, hear!!

[run pMc]

Disagree with the notion that Sherrod was a risky pick. LT's who are talented enough to be considered R1 worthy are generally safe picks, and most teams have a history of success (there are a few exceptions -- Tony Mandarich, Robert Gallery...) but most of the R1 LTs tend to pan out compared to DE's.

If you want a recent R1 risky pick, look no further than Nick Perry.

Sherrod is not a G, and should not play or practice there IMO. He's a prototype LT: tall, long arms, good quickness, smart. Only problem is he's also hurt. If he used his time to gain strength in an NFL weight room and master the line calls via mental reps then he's worth developing. The coaches have seen him up close and know what he can do...if they think he is a lost cause he's gone.

[Fritz]

Disagree with the notion that Sherrod was a risky pick. LT's who are talented enough to be considered R1 worthy are generally safe picks, and most teams have a history of success (there are a few exceptions -- Tony Mandarich, Robert Gallery...) but most of the R1 LTs tend to pan out compared to DE's.

If you want a recent R1 risky pick, look no further than Nick Perry.

Sherrod is not a G, and should not play or practice there IMO. He's a prototype LT: tall, long arms, good quickness, smart. Only problem is he's also hurt. If he used his time to gain strength in an NFL weight room and master the line calls via mental reps then he's worth developing. The coaches have seen him up close and know what he can do...if they think he is a lost cause he's gone.


If the coaches really have seen him enough up close to think he's a lost cause, he'd have already been gone. They either don't know yet, not having seen him enough, and they want to give him every chance because he was a first round pick, or they've seen enough to think he's got what it takes and they want to give him every chance.

I wonder often if Sherrod is struggling with the mental aspect of coming back from injury.There have been slight intimations in the past from MM that Sherrod is hesitant about trusting the healing. Here's MM's latest on that front: “Derek Sherrod is making progress. He’s very confident. The medical staff feels good about the way he’s coming. ... We’re trying to get him comfortable where he’s shown the explosion and the ability to push through the rehab process, because once you pass that physical you can’t turn back.”

[pbmax]

I cannot find the Tweet, but close to two thirds of starting tackles on rosters are drafted in the first two rounds.

Like QB, teams want a certain physical type there and are willing to work around other possible limitations.

Its one reason why running QBs might eventually be an attractive option from a roster and cap standpoint.

[Zool]

Wasn't sure where else to put this. It's a Bakteria v Marshmallow comparison.

http://jerseyal.com/GBP/2013/08/12/word-of-hobbes-marshall-newhouse-and-david-bakhtiari/

[Guiness]

I cannot find the Tweet, but close to two thirds of starting tackles on rosters are drafted in the first two rounds.

Like QB, teams want a certain physical type there and are willing to work around other possible limitations.

Its one reason why running QBs might eventually be an attractive option from a roster and cap standpoint.

True, but there are always enough outliers that you can't afford to leave anything unlooked at.

The poster child for QB is Brady, of course, with Romo getting an honorable mention because he was a UDFA. At LT, again the majority are from the top of the draft. Jason Peters I guess? Webb (Chicago) was a late pick. Not much more in the league from later than the second round at either of these positions.

Having said that, I wouldn't want to be in Oakland's shoes with Flynn, and I don't like that the Pack is going to trot out Bakhtiari or Newhouse.

[run pMc]

Followed a link of two and found this comment from Ben Muth:


I don’t think fans account for how much it helps an offensive lineman to play next to other good offensive linemen.

Makes me think Bahktiari being next to Sitton should help him.

[Pugger]

This is a good thread, altho I dunno if I understand this last bit from HH.

Last season the NFL started a new designation, injured reserve with a designation to return.

The return is the 9th week.

I don't think we used it last season, but Sherry (or Tretter?) might be a candidate this season.

Didn't we put Cedric Benson on that IR designated to return list last year but in the end his foot never healed in time?

[Pugger]

This seems to be the Homer consensus (my created term in here)...........it sounds like only three of us......myself...Patler...and Justin Harrell see it very differently. I saw a couple plays he did ok on in the one game but I didn't see nearly enough to even open the Homer Can. And besides that a lot of bad film. Some improvment from horrific doesn't cut it for me.

I hope you guys are right though.

The reason why I don't say Sherrod is better or worse than anyone else is we just haven't seen him play tackle as much as we've seen Bak up to now. He may never play a down for us but I'm hoping he'll recover like Mike Flanagan did. TT must've seen something in this young man to draft him in the first round.

[bobblehead]

As is he might be the best pass blocker on the team. Bakhtiari did a nice job Friday and might give him a run for his money, but Barclay and Newhouse can't touch Sherrod in pass blocking.

Didn't do it enough? Sure. Not a drive blocker or prone to whiffs on run blocks? Quite possibly. Pass blocking? Its what he is built to do.

He has a kick step only Bulaga can match and he is big, tall and long enough to control edge rushers. Each of the other three struggle with speed outside.

Even his pass blocking misses in preseason at tackle showed promise. He would setup correctly and get a stunt or inside move and not be fast enough to adjust or read it. But when his hands landed on the guy, it was over. He needs reps to learn to feel or call the stunts and read the inside counters.

100% accurate, spoken like a guy who understands OL play. Sherrod is the real deal at LT if he is ever healthy. Get him the reps. MM was a fool to mess with him at LG, but I understand trying to get him in the lineup while Cliffy was around, and switching sides, contrary to the experts around here, is MUCH tougher than LT to LG.

[bobblehead]

This seems to be the Homer consensus (my created term in here)...........it sounds like only three of us......myself...Patler...and Justin Harrell see it very differently. I saw a couple plays he did ok on in the one game but I didn't see nearly enough to even open the Homer Can. And besides that a lot of bad film. Some improvment from horrific doesn't cut it for me.

I hope you guys are right though.

You hope I am wrong, because everytime Bacteria has to face an elite speed rusher you will see why some of us are in love with Sherrod and praying he can make it onto the field.

[bobblehead]

Ted Thompson took a huge risk when he drafted Sherrod. The risk is that he used a 1st round draft pick on an offensive lineman who's coming in with rudimentary blocking fundamentals. The reason it's such a risk, and the reason you see certain schools pump OL into the NFL over all others is that you never quite know it a guy will be able to do it the NFL way and almost nobody can do it in the NFL any other way than the NFL way. Pass blocking is a true science. In the NFL, with the best of the best, everybody does it exactly the same. Only a few college teams teach it the NFL way. There are easier ways to get an elite athlete to perform in college, ways less detailed or demanding of fundamental excellence.

The risk took the worst possible turn. A guy who needed time to work on fundamentals didn't get an offseason because of the strike. After that, he was quickly injured. Now we're looking at a 24 year old rookie coming off a serious injury with muscle atrophy. It's a big fucking problem.

Now, here's to the upside of that swing for the fences. Sherrod has true, unique talent. The way he moves at his size in pass pro is elite. It's rare. I imagine he's going to be kept around, even if he were the 10th OL. His ceiling is so high, ted drafted him before he was ready to play. At this point, the pick is already spent. Now it's just the 53rd roster spot that he has to pay to find out if he can do it.

I'm completely off the Sherrod train when it comes to beating out Barclay, Bahktiari or Newhouse for playing time this season (unless it's the end of the season and he gets healthy real quick.) I'm completely on his train if it means keeping him around to see if he can get healthy and be the special type of talent some of his tape makes you think he could be.

He's a good guy. He comes to work. He's a team guy. He's dedicated, smart, hard working. . . He has elite talent. He's still a hell of a prospect still. I see no reason to part ways, but I think this board and everywhere else needs to seriously temper any early expectations. I know we want it to happen, but lets accept, the guy has glaring holes in his technique and he's coming of a serious lower body injury. Anybody taking an honest look at how he performed healthy would see it that way. The key word there is honest. HOnestly, everything has gone wrong for him and he wasn't ready.

So guys who are all SEC linemen aren't ready for the NFL as much as guys from colorado??

[bobblehead]

And oh the heady days of Sampson Genus. Where is he today?

Look down, he is right there :)

[pbmax]

So guys who are all SEC linemen aren't ready for the NFL as much as guys from colorado??

Iowa lineman have somewhat recently been dinged compared to the previous high regard that Ferentz's products were held in (same thing gets mentioned about Badgers O line as well). The feeling is that they come to the NFL trained, polished and prepped. That makes them ready made to step in, but it also means there isn't as much upside as there might be in other, underdeveloped prospects.

I wonder if this is simply an explanation for those that don't make it or if its a real thing. And I wonder if Alabama lineman will face the same fate.

[George Cumby]

Well, my memory of this season is fading as I discovered a couple of months ago when I was convinced it was the Redskins he came in against to sub for Newhouse who had to move left for injured Clifton. Joe had to set me straight that it was versus the Falcons (Game#5). He did get what might be some scrub snaps the week before versus Denver (gm4). After Bulaga came back, Sherrod only saw some snaps in Game 9 versus the Vikes.

He split the Oakland game (#13, this is what Patler is referring to above) after having gotten practice reps at Left Tackle, competing with Newhouse. He did not start but went into the game after a Bulaga injury versus KC (#14) and then the rest of his time is speculation.

When he played in preseason, there were two things evident. He simply did not have the small space quickness or low level power (drive blocking) to be an elite Guard. He was clearly not in the mold of a Rivera or traditional Guard. He might have developed into a Wahle type, where power is not his game but technique, leverage, arms and movement are used. But he was not that player yet and it might be wise to remember Wahle looked like he was failing at two positions before figuring Guard out in Year 3 I think. As the scouts say, he wasn't a natural here.

But even at Guard where he could look like an out of position rookie, when he locked on to someone in pass pro, he did not lose his guy. They didn't blow by him and they did not disengage. Now sometimes he went one way and the play went another but early he looked most like a rookie sorting it out.

At tackle, you then saw his feet which are better than Newhouse's, his kick step (first movement out of stance to begin pass block) and punch. The first two were better than anyone else on the roster except Clifton and maybe Bulaga. His punch wasn't much and he might have needed to be stronger here.

But even catching the rushing end, he locked on and did not let his guy go. It wasn't Lang who was too aggressive and would lunge or lean one way and get beat by a counter move. It wasn't Newhouse who made an initial punch but often loses contact. I also think he was more stubborn than Newhouse if the end went wide, but they were fewer instances of that happening. He simply could take his guy where he wanted.

As I am sure Justin has pointed out somewhere in this thread, his run blocking was meh, he was essentially a big body in the way. He is not a drive blocker. But Clifton was the same guy and played at an Pro Bowl level for a decade. As Baranczyk pointed out, a big body standing up in the way, getting a draw, is sometimes all you need. He needed work and reps with the run blocking. But he is very smart and he would have continued to get better.

Outside of the college offense angle, his resume screams success. Best lineman on his team, won conference awards, started a ton of games. But he needs to get on the field.

I just don't understand the urge to say we did not see it in camp therefore it doesn't exist. Clifton didn't win the job in camp. Wahle failed Clifton into a starter.

Outstanding answer, sir.

Thank you by much.

[wist43]

I'm sure you Homers are right - our OL is kickass... (cough... fiftyonesacks :roll: ... cough... 3.5 ypc avg :roll: )

With Sherrod, it is more kickass - and with Sherrod and Bulaga?? The best in the NFL. :doh:

Without some of us realists around to keep you guys grounded - you become drunk on the Green and Gold Kool-aid. I think you should be studied in a clinical setting.

I propose that you all be set up with free beer in the atrium and filmed for study by future generations of Packer fans yet unborn :alc:

[George Cumby]

Who is saying that the line is kickass?

[Bossman641]

100% accurate, spoken like a guy who understands OL play. Sherrod is the real deal at LT if he is ever healthy. Get him the reps. MM was a fool to mess with him at LG, but I understand trying to get him in the lineup while Cliffy was around, and switching sides, contrary to the experts around here, is MUCH tougher than LT to LG.

+1

I'm riding shotgun on the Sherrod bandwagon until it crashes to a fiery death


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eXSIsNS4tw&feature=player_detailpage&t=7

[3irty1]

If you don't mind my getting deep for a sentence, happiness is all about managing expectations. Now I don't recommend that we take this philosophy to wist's level where a 5 yard run up the middle (one that you can't blame on some kind of gimmick) is a pleasant surprise. But I think it'd be wise to mentally prepare for Sherrod to do nothing this season.

[Joemailman]

I'm sure you Homers are right - our OL is kickass... (cough... fiftyonesacks :roll: ... cough... 3.5 ypc avg :roll: )

With Sherrod, it is more kickass - and with Sherrod and Bulaga?? The best in the NFL. :doh:

Without some of us realists around to keep you guys grounded - you become drunk on the Green and Gold Kool-aid. I think you should be studied in a clinical setting.

I propose that you all be set up with free beer in the atrium and filmed for study by future generations of Packer fans yet unborn :alc:

http://commonsenseatheism.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/strawman.png

[Fritz]

If you don't mind my getting deep for a sentence, happiness is all about managing expectations. Now I don't recommend that we take this philosophy to wist's level where a 5 yard run up the middle (one that you can't blame on some kind of gimmick) is a pleasant surprise. But I think it'd be wise to mentally prepare for Sherrod to do nothing this season.

By your logic wouldn't Wist be the happiest guy in the world???

[pbmax]

If you don't mind my getting deep for a sentence, happiness is all about managing expectations. Now I don't recommend that we take this philosophy to wist's level where a 5 yard run up the middle (one that you can't blame on some kind of gimmick) is a pleasant surprise. But I think it'd be wise to mentally prepare for Sherrod to do nothing this season.

You raise a fair point. But speaking for myself, I am not necessarily expecting to see him (hope is another matter) but expect that if i DO see him, that he will eventually excel.

The only result I will have trouble accepting is his full return to health and then being a backup for 2 more years. :D

[pbmax]

By your logic wouldn't Wist be the happiest guy in the world???

I have to confess that during games I actually tell myself there is nothing wrong with a 2 yard run.

[Fritz]

I have to confess that during games I actually tell myself there is nothing wrong with a 2 yard run.

Three yards is my line in the sand.

[pbmax]

Three yards is my line in the sand.

"2 yards and then even another run call gets you 2 more. 3rd and 6. Manageable."

Problem is the times the second run gets blown up.

[Joemailman]

The problem with 2 is that it puts you in a must pass situation on 3rd down. 4 has the defense guessing run or pass.

I'm cool with 2 on 3rd and 1.

[Zool]

I'm sure you Homers are right - our OL is kickass... (cough... fiftyonesacks :roll: ... cough... 3.5 ypc avg :roll: )

With Sherrod, it is more kickass - and with Sherrod and Bulaga?? The best in the NFL. :doh:

Without some of us realists around to keep you guys grounded - you become drunk on the Green and Gold Kool-aid. I think you should be studied in a clinical setting.

I propose that you all be set up with free beer in the atrium and filmed for study by future generations of Packer fans yet unborn :alc:

I propose that you be set up with a Zoloft or Prozac bar to prevent any possible suicides induced by your hatred of watching football. If every fan were like you, there would be no yet unborn children as you wouldn't want to subject them to this shitty brand of football.

[3irty1]

By your logic wouldn't Wist be the happiest guy in the world???

He would be if he could just accept a 5 yard run as a pleasant surprise. With him a 5 yard run is further proof that the offense is built purely on gimmicks. Or number of other things: the other team having a momentary and collective spike in estrogen levels, we got away with obvious holding, their defensive coordinator dropped LCD for that play, sun spots, etc.

If you never give your team credit for that 5 yard run then it's never a pleasant surprise. Plus it leads to a dark spiral that evolves into a belief system so strong that even a super bowl win can be a bittersweet fluke. All success is coincidence and completely unreproducible. Hope is a buzzword for vegans and male ice skaters.

[swede]

He would be if he could just accept a 5 yard run as a pleasant surprise. With him a 5 yard run is further proof that the offense is built purely on gimmicks. Or number of other things: the other team having a momentary and collective spike in estrogen levels, we got away with obvious holding, their defensive coordinator dropped LCD for that play, sun spots, etc.

If you never give your team credit for that 5 yard run then it's never a pleasant surprise. Plus it leads to a dark spiral that evolves into a belief system so strong that even a super bowl win can be a bittersweet fluke. All success is coincidence and completely unreproducible. Hope is a buzzword for vegans and male ice skaters.

That post is so beautiful. I cried a little.

[Fritz]

That post is so beautiful. I cried a little.


It was perfect. I peed a little.