Surprising Final Cut

[Harlan Huckleby]

Most years there is one unlikely cut, sometimes shocking. I think it's imaginable the guys in the poll could get whacked.

I'm not counting bubble guys Starks, Green, Manning, Bush, Moses as surprises, but that's a judgement call. After Graham Harrell's decent game, I think he moved up to the unlikely-to-get-cut caste. Maybe Ross doesn't belong up there, but jeez, they need a returner.

[Guiness]

which poll would that be?

[Harlan Huckleby]

which poll would that be?

patience. the software makes you enter list after posting.

BTW, I vote that there will be no surprises, all those guys will make the team,

Whups, maybe DJ Williams should be in list, he would be a surprise.

[mraynrand]

Kuhn will be a shocker, because he's been effective as an outlet for Rodgers, he can pass pro pretty well, and he is well loved by the overtly racist Lambeau faithful looking for a guy that "looks like me." McCarthy will see the need to move on to a running back - or H-back - with actual athleticism.

[denverYooper]

Crosby is on there twice.

[Guiness]

You missed my pick - Tramon Williams.

[mraynrand]

Crosby is on there twice.

Crosby will get cut as PK, but not as utility back (hell, he probably can fit the NFL statistical average curve as well as LT, for crissakes)

[red]

franklin would surprise me, giving up on a 4th rounder with a bunch of potential would be a little crazy IMO

other then him and jolly, i really wouldn't be shocker if any of those other guys were cut

[denverYooper]

franklin would surprise me, giving up on a 4th rounder with a bunch of potential would be a little crazy IMO

other then him and jolly, i really wouldn't be shocker if any of those other guys were cut

Agree. Only reason that Franklin would get cut is if he's a huge locker room/work ethic/murder problem. Otherwise, he's shown enough flashes as a 5th rounder to stick.

[red]

Agree. Only reason that Franklin would get cut is if he's a huge locker room/work ethic/murder problem. Otherwise, he's shown enough flashes as a 5th rounder to stick.

not to nit pick, but he was a 4th. 125th pick overall

[pbmax]

Crosby will get cut as PK, but not as utility back (hell, he probably can fit the NFL statistical average curve as well as LT, for crissakes)

He is nearly the tackler that Jon Ryan is.

[pbmax]

Francois, one of the three best pass defenders on the team (Jolly Raji are the others) gets the axe as one of the ILBs finds that they can play special teams.

Its either him or Lattimore.

[RashanGary]

i voted kuhn. zolid player. geting older, not alot of upside to help the team. too many young players who have impact potential.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Crosby is on there twice.

He's only there once on my screen. You probably have some bad RAM in your computer, or a virus. I would reformat your hard disk and reload all software.

[Harlan Huckleby]

franklin would surprise me, giving up on a 4th rounder with a bunch of potential would be a little crazy IMO

I was thinking during Saturday's game that Franklin looked awfully unspecial. I can see the Packers deciding that Green can fullfill the same role better. I know TT would be loath to admit a 4th round mistake so soon, but still.... Wait a sec, Alex Green would be a 3rd round mistake.

Then I saw McGinn dog him a bit, and I said to myself, "This is significant, the two most respected football analysts in WI are questioning Franklin." So Franklin found his way to the death watch. Not saying it's gonna happen, but it's thinkable.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/johnathan-franklin-running-nowhere-duing-packers-camp-b9978203z1-220142311.html

[Harlan Huckleby]

You missed my pick - Tramon Williams.

wow, you definitely get a genius award if this one comes true. Even though I suspect you drew a name out of a hat.

[pbmax]

He's only there once on my screen. You probably have some bad RAM in your computer, or a virus. I would reformat your hard disk and reload all software.

Jaws reviewed the tape and finds you the 32nd best pollster on the Packerrats Message Board.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Francois, one of the three best pass defenders on the team (Jolly Raji are the two others) gets the axe as one of the ILBs finds that they can play special teams.

Its either him or Lattimore.

I think Francois has been impressive in all three preseason scrimmages. You're right, he could get cut, and I would be a little surprised. He's a proven, inexpensive contributor. He is a pretty good tackler.

[red]

I was thinking during Saturday's game that Franklin looked awfully unspecial. I can see the Packers deciding that Green can fullfill the same role better. I know TT would be loath to admit a 4th round mistake so soon, but still.... Wait a sec, Alex Green would be a 3rd round mistake.

Then I saw McGinn dog him a bit, and I said to myself, "This is significant, the two most respected football analysts in WI are questioning Franklin." So Franklin found his way to the death watch. Not saying it's gonna happen, but it's thinkable.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/johnathan-franklin-running-nowhere-duing-packers-camp-b9978203z1-220142311.html

yeah, but alex green has already had two full seasons plus this offseason and training camp to proves that he's nothing special

[MadtownPacker]

Jaws reviewed the tape and finds you the 32nd best pollster on the Packerrats Message Board.
Maybe but he is the best ball handler on the web.

[Harlan Huckleby]

yeah, but alex green has already had two full seasons plus this offseason and training camp to proves that he's nothing special

It's not easy being Green, guy's been injured most of the time. He's finally healthy and it's his time to shine.

Right now, Green is outplaying Franklin, and they are similar guys. I do agree with what you say, which is why it will be surprising if Franklin gets cut, somewhat expected if Green goes.

[Guiness]

It's not easy being Green, guy's been injured most of the time. He's finally healthy and it's his time to shine.

Right now, Green is outplaying Franklin, and they are similar guys. I do agree with what you say, which is why it will be surprising if Franklin gets cut, somewhat expected if Green goes.

Is he though? 16yds on 7 carries against Arizona, 15 on 5 carries against St-L. If that's better than Franklin (and it might be) I don't want to know about it.

6'0", 220. Everyone thinks Kuhn is gone, maybe Green better bulk up and shoot for his roster spot. He seems to run like an FB.

[pack4to84]

Ryan Pickett. 33 year old over paid NT that only plays a handful of snaps per game since we run nickel most of the time. With youth movement on the DL Pickett gets the axe.

[pbmax]

Ryan Pickett. 33 year old over paid NT that only plays a handful of snaps per game since we run nickel most of the time. With youth movement on the DL Pickett gets the axe.

That would qualify as a surprise all right.

[mraynrand]

I see a lot of people voting for Kuhn, therefore it isn't surprising; so I take back my vote.

[denverYooper]

not to nit pick, but he was a 4th. 125th pick overall

indeed

[Harlan Huckleby]

Ryan Pickett. 33 year old over paid NT that only plays a handful of snaps per game since we run nickel most of the time. With youth movement on the DL Pickett gets the axe.

You make a valid point about 33-year-old fat guy. Just don't see a replacement who is ready.

[swede]

Sorry about voting for DuJuan Harris. I was aiming for Crosby and missed low.

[sharpe1027]

just to nit pick, he was a 4th. 125th pick overall

Fixed. :)

I can't see them keeping Kuhn. He hasn't had a successful short yardage run in ages. He pass protects, but they might as well just use a another olineman. Frankly, he could get cut and the most noticeable difference on the field would be the absent the kuuuuuuuhhhn chant.

[Guiness]

Ryan Pickett. 33 year old over paid NT that only plays a handful of snaps per game since we run nickel most of the time. With youth movement on the DL Pickett gets the axe.

don't see that. There's tread left on those tires, he was effective last year.

[Pugger]

Ryan Pickett. 33 year old over paid NT that only plays a handful of snaps per game since we run nickel most of the time. With youth movement on the DL Pickett gets the axe.

Usually TT and McM will cut an older player if we have a younger, cheaper, better one waiting in the wings. However, at NT you need more than just Raji so I doubt Pick is going anywhere.

[Iron Mike]

Frank Zombo.

Wait, WHUT???

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/4849392384/hA2B00FD9/

[Zool]

Sherrod would be surprising. Shocking is a bit of a stretch for an adjective.

Kuhn should be cut tomorrow.

[MadScientist]

Ryan Pickett. 33 year old over paid NT that only plays a handful of snaps per game since we run nickel most of the time. With youth movement on the DL Pickett gets the axe.


don't see that. There's tread left on those tires, he was effective last year.

That sort of thinking leads to unproductive old guys on a roster. However Pickett stays because there is nobody else. If Jolly was a nose tackle then Pickett might possibly see the turk.

My vote is for Graham Harrell. Young will be the backup this year because he has a better arm, more experience, and will have enough time to learn the playbook. Coleman has improved but will still be able to get signed to the practice squad.

[pack4to84]

That sort of thinking leads to unproductive old guys on a roster. However Pickett stays because there is nobody else. If Jolly was a nose tackle then Pickett might possibly see the turk.

My vote is for Graham Harrell. Young will be the backup this year because he has a better arm, more experience, and will have enough time to learn the playbook. Coleman has improved but will still be able to get signed to the practice squad.

TT draft Raji to play NT but when we lost jolley we need a pass rushing DE. Pickett wasnt that player so they switched pickett to NT and Raji to DE. Now we have depth at DE again making Pickett expendable. Raji slowed down last year making him more of a NT then DE.

[Joemailman]

TT draft Raji to play NT but when we lost jolley we need a pass rushing DE. Pickett wasnt that player so they switched pickett to NT and Raji to DE. Now we have depth at DE again making Pickett expendable. Raji slowed down last year making him more of a NT then DE.

You think that's how it works? When a DE slows down, they make him a NT? Um....no. I'm pretty sure it has something to do with being able to anchor in the middle.

[pack4to84]

You think that's how it works? When a DE slows down, they make him a NT? Um....no. I'm pretty sure it has something to do with being able to anchor in the middle.

Raji is playing out of position as a DE because he had a high motor. That is no longer the case. His motor slowed down last year. So now he is more suited to play the postion he was drafted for NT.

They tried to limit Raji's snaps last year hoping he would be more productive. Did it work? No. He still under performed. His motor had slowed down.

Wouldn't you want to find out what your 1st rd draft pick could do at the position he was draft for before he becomes a free agent?

[Harlan Huckleby]

Raji is playing out of position as a DE because he had a high motor. That is no longer the case. His motor slowed down last year. So now he is more suited to play the postion he was drafted for NT.

They tried to limit Raji's snaps last year hoping he would be more productive. Did it work? No. He still under performed. His motor had slowed down.

Wouldn't you want to find out what your 1st rd draft pick could do at the position he was draft for before he becomes a free agent?

I'm not sure that Raji's motor is misfiring, but I agree he does seem to be better suited for nose than end. He's had his greatest success there, at least in my memory. He's short, stout and quick. I know that 3-4 DEs can be stocky, so I guess he isn't "out of position" anywhere on the D line, but I like him better sliding off blocks inside.

[pbmax]

Raji is NOT suited for 3-4 DE and his snaps at that position have declined. His biggest asset is quickness (not speed) and that negates his effectiveness against long armed and tall tackles out wide where they can be setup at the snap a yard deep.

His best position would be 4-3 DT at 3 tech. In order to alleviate this problem and keep Raji and Pickett at their best spots, Capers has his Eagle Oakie front where Pickett is a 1tech NT and Raji lines up opposite of him at 3 tech. This looks exactly like a 4-3 defense except the DE next to Raji is an OLB.

Versus the 49ers in the playoff game, that meant Walden was the unblocked or crashing DE and Jones was the ILB who filled. Part of Neal's role this year might be to add some beef to that particular equation though Perry will not be able to be blocked by Delanie Walker.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I think Kuhn is safe. I read he's making $1.8M this year, so he's affordable. I think Harrell is probably the most likely of the list to be cut. If Franklin wasn't a 4th round pick, he'd probably be the most likely. But when a guy is that high of a pick, there's something the team saw in him that most teams aren't going to ignore with one bad training camp.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think Kuhn is safe. I read he's making $1.8M this year, so he's affordable.

Well, Tyler Dunne seems to think Kuhn is safe:

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/talk-of-fullbacks-exit-in-nfl-a-bit-premature-packers-john-kuhn-says-b9979906z1-220451251.html


Kuhn is a very unthrilling fullback. He doesn't blow-up defenders with his blocking. Forget about him as a runner, in any situation. I guess he is just good enough at several things - run & pass blocking, receiving - to be serviceable. He is definitely better than all the guys they brought-in to challenge him, Quincy Johnson and others.

Tyler Dunne's article mainly makes the case for keeping a fullback. But is Kuhn a good fullback? I guess I don't see enough other fullbacks to know how he rates.

[mraynrand]

Well, Tyler Dunne seems to think Kuhn is safe:

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/talk-of-fullbacks-exit-in-nfl-a-bit-premature-packers-john-kuhn-says-b9979906z1-220451251.html


Kuhn is a very unthrilling fullback. He doesn't blow-up defenders with his blocking. Forget about him as a runner, in any situation. I guess he is just good enough at several things - run & pass blocking, receiving - to be serviceable. He is definitely better than all the guys they brought-in to challenge him, Quincy Johnson and others.

Tyler Dunne's article mainly makes the case for keeping a fullback. But is Kuhn a good fullback? I guess I don't see enough other fullbacks to know how he rates.

at least he's better than Captain Caveman, Jonathan Amosa, but that's not saying much

[Fritz]

At this point, would it be a surprise if Crosby were cut?

I'd like to see them give him Friday night's game.

And Datone Jones, injuring his left foot again? Kee-Rist.

[billy_oliver880]

vince young will get cut....hasn't shown nearly enough to stick...granted the other two are dogshit :?

[Patler]

At this point, would it be a surprise if Crosby were cut?

I think it will be more of a surprise if he doesn't get cut.

[Fritz]

I am greatly disappointed that Harrell has been so inconsistent. He's had plenty of time to understand the system and develop, but he is not a decent backup.

Is it too little time for Young to get his rhythm and legs back? Can Coleman earn the Packers' trust in two weeks?

Uh, Ted, it might be wise to invest in a QB in next year's draft. One who is less of a project than a seventh rounder. In the meantime, let's pray for Rodgers's good health.

[hoosier]

The GBP have had pretty good success developing late round projects at QB, both under Holmgren and McCarthy: Hasselbeck, Detmer, Brooks, Flynn....I would give Coleman another year before giving up on him completely.

[Fritz]

The GBP have had pretty good success developing late round projects at QB, both under Holmgren and McCarthy: Hasselbeck, Detmer, Brooks, Flynn....I would give Coleman another year before giving up on him completely.

I didn't mean to say I was giving up on Coleman - sorry if that's how it looked. What I meant was that you can't just bank on one guy developing at a certain pace, and I think they kinda did that with Harrell. He isn't working out, and Coleman's not ready, so they're in the lurch.

If you draft a guy next year - maybe slightly less developmentally challenged, let's say as a pun - then you have two guys to work with.

[pack4to84]

Did I mention that Pickett is over paid. His salary cap hit this year is 6.7 mil. Ouch for someone who plays only on running downs or goal line. I believe if he is cut the Packers would save 5.4 mil.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Jeremy Ross will not make the cut. As a receiver, he is no better than others at that position. As a PR/KR, he is prone to muff and fumble. Micah Hyde is an adequate PR/KR but he has great judgment and is less likely to cause turnovers.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Did I mention that Pickett is over paid. His salary cap hit this year is 6.7 mil. Ouch for someone who plays only on running downs or goal line. I believe if he is cut the Packers would save 5.4 mil.

He's a FA after this year and they aren't really in need of cap room right now, so there's little chance Pickett gets cut.

[wist43]

Did I mention that Pickett is over paid. His salary cap hit this year is 6.7 mil. Ouch for someone who plays only on running downs or goal line. I believe if he is cut the Packers would save 5.4 mil.

Cut the only 2-gap player you have on the roster, when you supposedly run a 3-4??

Yeah, that's brilliant.

All he does is play on run downs?? As if stopping the run were easy or unnecessary??

[wist43]

Jeremy Ross will not make the cut. As a receiver, he is no better than others at that position. As a PR/KR, he is prone to muff and fumble. Micah Hyde is an adequate PR/KR but he has great judgment and is less likely to cause turnovers.

Ross happyfooting under a punt is more exciting though - and the game is supposed to be exciting, right??

When Ross was preparing to muff that punt against the Niners - he's looking up, trying to gauge the ball... weren't you expecting him to fuck it up?? I know I was... it was "exciting", right??

[Maxie the Taxi]

Ross happyfooting under a punt is more exciting though - and the game is supposed to be exciting, right??

When Ross was preparing to muff that punt against the Niners - he's looking up, trying to gauge the ball... weren't you expecting him to fuck it up?? I know I was... it was "exciting", right??

Desmond Howard was exciting and sure-handed. (I only remember one miscue.) I'll take a guy with good judgement and sure hands every time. Field position and turnovers decide more games than punt returns to the house.

[mraynrand]

Ross happyfooting under a punt is more exciting though - and the game is supposed to be exciting, right??

When Ross was preparing to muff that punt against the Niners - he's looking up, trying to gauge the ball... weren't you expecting him to fuck it up?? I know I was... it was "exciting", right??

If you can predict when a punt returner will muff it, you should be a scout.

[Maxie the Taxi]

If you can predict when a punt returner will muff it, you should be a scout.

My gut should be a scout. Anytime anyone's back there but Cobb I get this gut feeling... When Ross is back there, even bicarb doesn't help.

[mraynrand]

My gut should be a scout. Anytime anyone's back there but Cobb I get this gut feeling... When Ross is back there, even bicarb doesn't help.

sounds like general panic. You need a discerning gut, like Wist. Apparently his gut can detect various nuances in the eyes and comportment of kick returners that allows him to predict, with perfect accuracy, which punts will be muffed. Kind of like those Packer fans years ago who could detect whether or not Favre would have a bad game or not by 'the look on his face' during warmups. There's a shortage of psychiatrists in the USA - these prescient people owe it to their country to sign up for duty.

[Maxie the Taxi]

You're right. General panic...except with Cobb. LOL

[wist43]

If you can predict when a punt returner will muff it, you should be a scout.

Big stage, big game, untested rookie being thrown out as if an afterthought??

What could possibly go wrong?? lol...

[HarveyWallbangers]

I felt pretty good about Ross actually. He's been a returner before and he looked sure handed up to that point. I think he's sure handed, but the moment might have been too big for him. Something a little experience can solve.

[packer4life]

Ross has too much potential to be cut. The guy looked electrifying in a significant number of his returns at the end of last year. He could evolve into a game changer on STs.

[Patler]

I felt pretty good about Ross actually. He's been a returner before and he looked sure handed up to that point. I think he's sure handed, but the moment might have been too big for him. Something a little experience can solve.

Didn't Cobb drop one later in the game, but picked it up himself?

[wist43]

Ross has too much potential to be cut. The guy looked electrifying in a significant number of his returns at the end of last year. He could evolve into a game changer on STs.

Well, he certainly helped change the complexion of the Niner game... not that we would have been able to stop them anyway, but doing stupid shit like throwing a rookie into the deep end of the pool sure isn't helpful.

No way would I have had him out there.

Let him get his feet wet during the regular season... he had 4 career punt returns in the regular season, and MM trots him out there in the playoffs?? Brilliant!!

[packer4life]

I honestly didn't trust Cobb much more than Ross in the realm of ball security on returns at the end of last season.

[Guiness]

My gut should be a scout. Anytime anyone's back there but Cobb I get this gut feeling... When Ross is back there, even bicarb doesn't help.

How did you feel when Woodson was fielding them???

I hated it. I never doubted his hands or ability to field them, I couldn't believe they had their #1 CB/$10M vs salary cap man back there!

[Maxie the Taxi]

I wasn't concerned because he had sure hands, like you say. Plus, he was smart enough not to get leveled to often.

[CaptainKickass]

.


The word "shocker" has been tossed around in here too many times without some smart-ass piping up with a visual.

So here:


http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv283/alt-turbogeek421/motivational/the-shocker.jpg

[pbmax]

I honestly didn't trust Cobb much more than Ross in the realm of ball security on returns at the end of last season.

Cobb was just as shaky in addition to putting it on the ground during the run. But it was nice to have a threat.

[Fritz]

Yet Ross is as much of a threat on returns, kicks or punts, as Cobb was, in my estimation. Cobb seemed to get worse as the year went on, going from running North-South to East-West.

[Willard]

Pickett would be a surprising cut, but they may feel they have good young talent on the DL that they don't want to lose in order to keep a dependable, but expensive veteran who is playing on the last year of his contract.

[Patler]

I honestly didn't trust Cobb much more than Ross in the realm of ball security on returns at the end of last season.

Neither did I. He had become shaky on returns catching and securing the ball. I am fairly certain that he dropped a kick/punt later in the 49er game, but recovered it himself. That doesn't make it any less of an issue for him than it was for Ross.

[Patler]

Pickett would be a surprising cut, but they may feel they have good young talent on the DL that they don't want to lose in order to keep a dependable, but expensive veteran who is playing on the last year of his contract.

Further complicated by the fact that Raji, Wilson and Neal (is he still d-line?) are also in their last contract years. Not sure if they can or want to keep all of them after 2013, so the young guys have more value when looking a year or two down the time frame.

[Willard]

Further complicated by the fact that Raji, Wilson and Neal (is he still d-line?) are also in their last contract years. Not sure if they can or want to keep all of them after 2013, so the young guys have more value when looking a year or two down the time frame.
Right. I thought Wilson and Daniels Looked good. Raji is an enigma to me. Perhaps they only drop Pickett if they have decided to try to extend Raji? I am not knowledgable enough about the DL personnel to know if there is anybody else who plays the same position as Pickett. Anyhow, in the spirit of this thread I predict Pickett.

[swede]

Better to cut guys one year too soon than one year too late.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Better to cut guys one year too soon than one year too late.

Or as my barber used to say, "I can always cut it shorter, but I have a hard time making it longer."

:lol: that guy was a scream

[Fritz]

Further complicated by the fact that Raji, Wilson and Neal (is he still d-line?) are also in their last contract years. Not sure if they can or want to keep all of them after 2013, so the young guys have more value when looking a year or two down the time frame.

This might mean that a guy like Wilson or Neal could be surprise cuts if they think their replacements are already on the roster. However, in Neal's case, he seems to be being classified as an OLB, and I'm not sure if any of the backups have outplayed him. Maybe Mulamba, but now he's hurt. So maybe that's his ticket this year.

Hard to imagine them getting rid of Wilson, though. I can see them letting him walk, though. But are Boyd and Miller DE's or NT's or what?

[Harlan Huckleby]

Hard to imagine them getting rid of Wilson, though. I can see them letting him walk, though. But are Boyd and Miller DE's or NT's or what?

They are 1-gap, 3-technique tackles in a 4-3 or 2-gap spin casters in a 3-4 with an overshifted line.

[swede]

They are 1-gap, 3-technique tackles in a 4-3 or 2-gap spin casters in a 3-4 with an overshifted line.

Say that stuff in a husky voice and you could run a 900 number for Packers nerds.

[Maxie the Taxi]

They are 1-gap, 3-technique tackles in a 4-3 or 2-gap spin casters in a 3-4 with an overshifted line.

Guys like that cause bad snags. Better cut 'em.

[Smidgeon]

They are 1-gap, 3-technique tackles in a 4-3 or 2-gap spin casters in a 3-4 with an overshifted line.

Say that stuff in a husky voice and you could run a 900 number for Packers nerds.

Repped

[bobblehead]

.


The word "shocker" has been tossed around in here too many times without some smart-ass piping up with a visual.

So here:


http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv283/alt-turbogeek421/motivational/the-shocker.jpg

If you're a vegas dice shooter we simply call that the ace/deuce

[MadScientist]

So do the voters for Graham Harrell win because he got cut, or lose because he didn't even make it to the final cut?

[HarveyWallbangers]

I think we win no matter what happens because he got cut first.

[Guiness]

Crosby with no votes - and now I wonder if that's because he'd be the most surprising, or if everything thought he was the most obvious?

[Harlan Huckleby]

Crosby with no votes - and now I wonder if that's because he'd be the most surprising, or if everything thought he was the most obvious?

Crosby had two votes. The phantom Crosby has no votes.

I think HArrell getting cut counts as a surprise, looking from the start of camp. Of course, there are a couple pussies who waited until last week to vote for Harrell. Such behavior is reprehensible.

[Harlan Huckleby]

So do the voters for Graham Harrell win because he got cut, or lose because he didn't even make it to the final cut?

Sure, the people who foresaw the sudden death of Graham HArrell (before the Seattle game, IMO) can do some chest pumping.

Of course there is still time for an extreme winner, there were write-ins for Pickett & Tramon Williams, an accidental vote for DuJuan Harris, and a drunk vote for Franklin. Could be more glory to come.