What we saw last night

[wist43]

It may have been a preseason game - but what we saw last night was simply a continuation of what we saw against power teams last year.

Our OL getting pushed around, MM calling his 3 running plays; Capers playing as small and soft as possible - giving up explosive plays all over the place...

Given the schemes we run, and the philosophies of the team - we are pretty much helpless against power teams. You would think that getting the living hell kicked out of you so many times, in the same way every time, would push you to consider that maybe there is something wrong with your approach, but that seems to have never crossed the minds of the brain trust at 1265.

Capers is a complete disaster... so nothing can be done for the defense until he is fired.

On offense, we might as well pass it every down and put it in Rodgers hands. We're a QB driven team - and need Rodgers to play lights out perfect every game.

The philosophies of this team on both sides of ball are fundamentally flawed. Against other finesse teams we're probably the SB champ every year; but against power teams we're helpless. They push us around and beat us up... and there's nothing we can do about it.

I think we have good enough players to compete, but the passive philosophies of the coaching staff negate the talent.

[mraynrand]

Nelson and Cobb looked terrible. Seattle totally shut down the passing attack in the second half. The season is over.

[wist43]

Nelson and Cobb looked terrible. Seattle totally shut down the passing attack in the second half. The season is over.

That's the typical response of you homers... Rodgers and our passing game are the solution to our running game and pathetic defense.

Our defense would have been awesome last night if only Cobb and Nelson had played, right??

Maybe line Nelson up on the nose, and Rodgers and Cobb at DE??

Wait?? That's waaaaayyyyy tooooo many DL on the field at one time. Maybe just Rodgers at DE??

[Patler]

It may have been a preseason game - but what we saw last night was simply a continuation of what we saw against power teams last year.

Our OL getting pushed around, MM calling his 3 running plays; Capers playing as small and soft as possible - giving up explosive plays all over the place...

Given the schemes we run, and the philosophies of the team - we are pretty much helpless against power teams. You would think that getting the living hell kicked out of you so many times, in the same way every time, would push you to consider that maybe there is something wrong with your approach, but that seems to have never crossed the minds of the brain trust at 1265.

Capers is a complete disaster... so nothing can be done for the defense until he is fired.

On offense, we might as well pass it every down and put it in Rodgers hands. We're a QB driven team - and need Rodgers to play lights out perfect every game.

The philosophies of this team on both sides of ball are fundamentally flawed. Against other finesse teams we're probably the SB champ every year; but against power teams we're helpless. They push us around and beat us up... and there's nothing we can do about it.

I think we have good enough players to compete, but the passive philosophies of the coaching staff negate the talent.

Offensively for the Packers, I agree with you. Not so much for the defense. After the first drive by Seattle, during which the Packers looked kind of bad until they got their backs against the goal line, the Packer defense gave up just 4 first downs in six possessions by Seattle's #1 offense. I'll take a defensive performance like that. They intercepted Wilson twice during that time.

[Tony Oday]

The stats do not fit Wist's narrative...OMG he is a closet liberal!!! Free Trevon!!!

[Patler]

I was more concerned with the offense than the defense last night. The O-line was manhandled. But, I have gotten rather accustomed to seeing that. The only one that I don't remember seeing get tossed around a time or two was Sitton. Maybe he did too, and I just didn't catch it.

Lang seems to be struggling. I wonder if the move hasn't sat well with his game.
EDS makes me wish they had given Finley's money to Wells.
The kids at tackle get "educated" a play or two every drive, it seems.

[Willard]

Early 3rd-and-long defense continues to frustrate, but I am more concerned with the OL than the D at this point. Our C and RG look marginal at best. I can only hope that the Seachick's DL is among the elite because they were pushing the OL around.

[ThunderDan]

That's funny. I came out with a different impression. I felt the exact same way that you felt after the first SEA drive. After that we held them to something like 50 yards for the rest of the 1st half and sacked Wilson multiple times. SEA had 4 first downs the rest of the half and two came on penalties against the Pack.

ARod in his one and only series moved the ball and scored points. I am guessing we could have put up another 7 to 17 points against SEA in the first half if ARod had continued. Also, stated in another thread as soon as ARod was out SEA dropped 8 in the box on almost every play. SEA didn't respect any GB QB after Rodgers.

Loyce Means, a guy going to get cut in the next 7-10 days single-handedly gave SEA 14 points. On the TD run by Michael he took the worst angle I have ever seen and allowed the RB to get to the outside instead of pushing him inside to his help. He also did that on a critical 3rd down minutes before when Wilson hit a crossing route where Hyde had the coverage. Hyde was trailing to make the tackle and would have caused 4th down instead Means again took the wrong angle let the WR get to the outside and "bumped" into Hyde and kept him from making the tackle before the first down.

[mraynrand]

That's the typical response of you homers... Rodgers and our passing game are the solution to our running game and pathetic defense.

Solution, no. Influence, yes, of course. Packers have issues. This is a 10, 11 win team that could be better, but it needs some good breaks to be better. Caper's scheme the end of the world? No, it has vulnerabilities, but they can win with it, if everything else works too - and of course if they get lucky and the rest of the league lays down for them, like in 2010.

[mraynrand]

SEA didn't respect any GB QB after Rodgers.

exactly

[wist43]

Offensively for the Packers, I agree with you. Not so much for the defense. After the first drive by Seattle, during which the Packers looked kind of bad until they got their backs against the goal line, the Packer defense gave up just 4 first downs in six possessions by Seattle's #1 offense. I'll take a defensive performance like that. They intercepted Wilson twice during that time.

The defense was a complete disaster... Seattle self-destructed on their own. Good grief, they had 182 penatly yds for the game!!! That is almost as many total yards as Green Bay had for the game as a team - 201. Sweezey was a one-man penalty machine... he had almost as many penalty yds as we did rushing yds for the game, lol... and he did have more more penalty yards than our RB's had rushing for the game 35 yds vs 32 yds rushing.

32 stinking rushing yds from our RB's?? Is that a familiar stat from last year?? 3.3 yd/avg??

And the INTs?? one was a tipped pass (which happens), and the other was simply a bad pass. I give Nick Perry credit for getting his hands up, and McMillian made a nice diving grab of Wilson's errant throw - but all of the underlying problems that we saw last year, and throughout the game were there from the first snap.

The problem is Capers.

[mraynrand]

Seattle self-destructed on their own. Good grief, they had 182 penatly yds for the game!!! That is almost as many total yards as Green Bay had for the game as a team - 201. Sweezey was a one-man penalty machine... he had almost as many penalty yds as we did rushing yds for the game, lol... and he did have more more penalty yards than our RB's had rushing for the game 35 yds vs 32 yds rushing.

See? See? The rest of the league will tank in our favor! We win!!!

[packer4life]

Yes the sky is falling. Our 3rd string DL was tossing around seattles STARTING OL like it was nothing. Give it a rest Wist, go find a different forum to trumpet your capers hating propaganda.

[swede]

I like the way Wist trumpets caper hating propaganda. He's the Maynard Ferguson of caper hating propaganda.

[hoosier]

I didn't watch much of the game but I did see some positive things, like: (1) Lacy's nice run to the left that was negated by a phantom holding call on Bakhtiari (one of the worst [non]holding calls I've ever seen, btw); (2) Defense applied pressure and made Wilson look pretty average (I didn't see the early problems with getting off the field on 3rd and long, though); (3) While Vince Young wasn't too impressive throwing the ball, he wasn't as bad as Harrell and Coleman and he did show an ability to create, especially in the red zone. I have a feeling Harrell is outta here.

[wist43]

Wow... I just can't believe what you guys see with your eyes. We were dominated, completely dominated in that game - in every way.

Rodgers covers up a lot of shortcomings... he dumps the ball off and gets some positive yds, and you guys forget about it; he throws the ball away to avoid a sack, it goes down as an incomplete, and the next play they get a first down somehow - but what I saw, and didn't forget, was that the OL either completely broke down or got run over the previous play.

The flaws are numerous and obvious - Rodgers covers a lot of it up, but the flaws are there and against power teams they are fatal.

Yes, the season is over before it starts for us b/c we haven't addressed the flaws that killed us last year. It's the same crap that gets us beat against power teams every year... styles make fights, but power trumps finesse every time, when the power team plays square football.

[Maxie the Taxi]

What I saw a few minutes ago....

I watched the Packers' first offensive series again and slowed the motion down so I could concentrate on the LOS play. We controlled it. In my opinion our offensive line did not get manhandled or even defeated. They did well on pass protection. When Seattle forced Rodgers out of the pocket it was due to Rodgers not finding an open man.

On the running plays, Harris picked the wrong hole a couple of times. On one play their was a gaping hole on the left and he went right. On another there was daylight right and left and Harris plowed up the middle, seemingly with his eyes closed.

If Lacy is in there, he rips off long runs. If Cobb and Nelson are in there, we score on that first series...no doubt.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. If you want evidence, go to the video tape.

[wist43]

I like the way Wist trumpets caper hating propaganda. He's the Maynard Ferguson of caper hating propaganda.

:thank::thank::thank::thank:

[denverYooper]

Nelson and Cobb looked terrible. Seattle totally shut down the passing attack in the second half. The season is over.

Yeah. Rodgers had like 4 completions all night. Pitiful.

[swede]

Wow... I just can't believe what you guys see with your eyes. We were dominated, completely dominated in that game - in every way.

Rodgers covers up a lot of shortcomings... he dumps the ball off and gets some positive yds, and you guys forget about it; he throws the ball away to avoid a sack, it goes down as an incomplete, and the next play they get a first down somehow - but what I saw, and didn't forget, was that the OL either completely broke down or got run over the previous play.

The flaws are numerous and obvious - Rodgers covers a lot of it up, but the flaws are there and against power teams they are fatal.

Yes, the season is over before it starts for us b/c we haven't addressed the flaws that killed us last year. It's the same crap that gets us beat against power teams every year... styles make fights, but power trumps finesse every time, when the power team plays square football.

http://www.concertlivewire.com/jpegs/concerts/maynard1.jpg

[red]

I just dont get why we continue to leave anyone who goes over the middle completely uncovered

For years, teams have been able to throw at will over the middle on us

Why can we not stop this?

[wist43]

You guys are consistent, lol...

What I saw, from the opening kickoff, was a repeat of the SF game...

What you guys saw was a whole bunch of positivity that just didn't quite pan out - we were "this close" to killing 'em!!! lol :cow:

[pbmax]

Worried about O line but that was against a very good Seattle front 7. They will struggle early this year against that level of talent running the ball. New positions, old EDS and no Bulaga will take an adjustment. Same as every other year apparently.

Defense played well. Backups gave up big plays that hurt.

But let's breakdown this picture, the D alignment prior to Christian Michael's TD run off tackle to the right. That is the Packer #2 defense (3rd team in some cases) versus the #1 Seattle O except at RB. Caper's has dialed this up to stop the pass on 2nd and 18 and Seattle quite smartly checks to a run. As Dan points out, Means blows a tackle/force attempt mid-run that would have helped. But what happens before that is more telling.

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/paisans_2006/img-811180941.png

[Carolina_Packer]

I like what MM did with playing reserves earlier to get game experience against 1's and 2's. You can only measure so much about a player getting game reps against 3's and 4's. I like Vic Ketchman's comment on Packers.com "Ask Vic" on the 22nd:

Rebecca from Viroqua, WI

Not to be a worst-case scenario kind of girl here, and I really doubt this will happen, but let’s say the Seahawks come to Lambeau on Friday and thrash the Packers. Could a loss like that have any effect on the team for the beginning of the regular season? Or would it give them a sort of chip on their shoulder and motivate them to prove what they’re capable of?

Vic's response:

It would have no effect on the team. Rebecca, on Monday following the final preseason game, Coach McCarthy will flip the switch on the start of the regular season and the Packers’ opener in San Francisco, and we’ll quickly forget everything that happened in the preseason. It’s been that way for every team I’ve ever covered. The only thing that resembles the football that’s played in the preseason and the football that’s played in the regular season is the ball. You have two more weeks to relax and enjoy summer. Two weeks from today, the nervous tension in Packers nation for the opener in San Francisco will be crippling. Don’t rush it. It’ll get here soon enough.

Good stuff! The sky is not falling. I hope you actually enjoy following the Packers. People who want to keep a positive outlook are not homers. They just choose not to be so "real" :-)

[mraynrand]

I like the way Wist trumpets caper hating propaganda. He's the Robert Ferguson of caper hating propaganda.

fify

[mraynrand]

But let's breakdown this picture, the D alignment prior to Christian Michael's TD run off tackle to the right. That is the Packer #2 defense (3rd team in some cases) versus the #1 Seattle O except at RB. Caper's has dialed this up to stop the pass on 2nd and 18 and Seattle quite smartly checks to a run. As Dan points out, Means blows a tackle/force attempt mid-run that would have helped. But what happens before that is more telling.

do tell

[King Friday]

Wow... I just can't believe what you guys see with your eyes. We were dominated, completely dominated in that game - in every way.

Well, our offense was dominated because Rodgers only played 5% of the game and Nelson and Cobb 0%. When your offensive playmakers aren't playing, a defense as good as Seattle's will make you look silly.

Defensively, I thought we held up well against Seattle. It wasn't a great game, but we held their #1 offense to 3 points in the first half. I don't care how often Seattle was penalized or shot themselves in the foot...3 points is 3 points, and that is what our defense gave up. If we had been dominated, Seattle would've scored more than 3 points.

[swede]

I like the way Wist trumpets caper hating propaganda. He's the Robert Ferguson of caper hating propaganda.


fify

Next year he's gonna be awesome.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I actually took a lot of positives out of the game. Probably the most disappointing was the run blocking by the first unit. I don't expect much from the second unit, and I don't expect much from Lacy when its the second unit vs. Seattle's 1st team defense and Harrell is throwing backwards passes to him that result in him gaining -13 yards. However, the first unit did struggle in run blocking against a pretty stout defense.

POSITIVES
OL pass blocking
Vince Young
DL had 4 sacks and should have had 6 (on one the Packers accepted a holding and on another Manning got a questionable roughing the passer penalty)
Tim Masthay was ridiculous
Jeremy Ross looked dangerous on returns
Mason Crosby made his FG easily

NEGATIVES
1st OL pass blocking
Injuries
Too many backup WRs and TEs dropped balls or fumbled balls they caught

[mraynrand]

You guys are consistent, lol...

What I saw, from the opening kickoff, was a repeat of the SF game...

What you guys saw was a whole bunch of positivity that just didn't quite pan out - we were "this close" to killing 'em!!! lol :cow:

I missed the pick 6.

BTW,

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-rLHpEHrXcWg/TskKIQGKmOI/AAAAAAAABgQ/CkY1WGbvazs/s200/yawn.png

We know your opinions, but now you're just being a inane drone. Maybe some specific analysis and context might help.

[King Friday]

You guys are consistent, lol...

What I saw, from the opening kickoff, was a repeat of the SF game...

What I saw was a preseason game. It has virtually no bearing on real football.

We play SF and WAS the first two games. You honestly think Capers is going to show those 2 power teams what he's planning to do week 1/2 during a preseason warmup? If so, you are an idiot.

[swede]

Well, our offense was dominated because Rodgers only played 5% of the game and Nelson and Cobb 0%. When your offensive playmakers aren't playing, a defense as good as Seattle's will make you look silly.

Defensively, I thought we held up well against Seattle. It wasn't a great game, but we held their #1 offense to 3 points in the first half. I don't care how often Seattle was penalized or shot themselves in the foot...3 points is 3 points, and that is what our defense gave up.

They are the rope-a-dope defense, that's for sure.

"Body shot! Kidney punch! Bicep! Bicep! Below the belt! Below the belt again! Sack? Field goal."

[wist43]

Worried about O line but that was against a very good Seattle front 7. They will struggle early this year against that level of talent running the ball. New positions, old EDS and no Bulaga will take an adjustment. Same as every other year apparently.

Defense played well. Backups gave up big plays that hurt.

But let's breakdown this picture, the D alignment prior to Christian Michael's TD run off tackle to the right. That is the Packer #2 defense (3rd team in some cases) versus the #1 Seattle O except at RB. Caper's has dialed this up to stop the pass on 2nd and 18 and Seattle quite smartly checks to a run. As Dan points out, Means blows a tackle/force attempt mid-run that would have helped. But what happens before that is more telling.

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/paisans_2006/img-811180941.png

That's typical Capers, 4 guys in the box, and only 1 of them a decent run defender (Jolly)... the run is never even a consideration - 43 yds later it isn't either.

Capers routinely abandons any pretense of controlling the LOS or the middle of the field - it is fundamentally unsound football.

It isn't like a battlefield tactic of inviting a middle attack, and enveloping... giving up ground may be a viable strategy in military theory, but in football, real estate matters.

Capers is very unsound in what he does.

[pbmax]

Re: http://packerrats.com/showthread.php?25753-What-we-saw-last-night&p=735037&viewfull=1#post735037

[All directions here are from computer screen or offensive perspective]

Its an outside zone, they are cutting the backside (left) and Francois (MLB over nose) jumps to the left. Without occupying a blocker, he takes himself out of the play.

Daniels on left beats the cut block but is too late to make a play in the backfield and trails the play.

Lattimore, who is aligned left for reasons that are not clear is at a traditional LB depth for a pass play. But when Frenchy jumps left, there are two LBs on the weak side. Lattimore is signaling to a DB and misses the snap.

Jolly has the biggest failure as he gets driven off the ball and out of the hole. If Jolly cannot be counted on standing up to single blocking then get your wist on, season on D is over.

Moses is OLB left and reacts slowly to play, does not flatten out down the line and chase. About as unlike Matthews as possible. Because he is late and because Lattimore was late as well, Unger is blocking Lattimore at the depth Moses retreats to to chase. When he encounters the trash, he retreats further and is farther and is useless.

Execution. Not size.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Yes, Russell Wilson and Seattle's 1st team offense dominated us to the tune of 4 first downs in Wilson's 6 drives after the opening drive. Some against the second string defense. That's just a manhandling. The 3 first half points pales just a little in comparison to the 35 points/game Seattle was averaging this preseason and the 38 points/game they averaged in their last 6 games last year, but let's classify it as a manhandling.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/a-deep-production-line-on-packers-defense-b9982300z1-220909991.html


The starting group of Raji, Ryan Pickett and C.J. Wilson had a few hiccups in the early going, allowing quarterback Russell Wilson to escape for a 13-yard run and hit a deep ball to receiver Doug Baldwin.

But on first and goal from the 9, Robert Turbin was stopped for no gain, linebacker Clay Matthews sacked Wilson for a 9-yard loss and Turbin was knocked out of bounds at the 9 on third down.

From that point on, the defense gave up four first downs on six possessions against the No.1 offense. At the heart of the effort was a defensive line that blends veterans like Raji, Ryan Pickett, Johnny Jolly and C.J. Wilson with youngsters like Datone Jones, Mike Daniels and Jordan Miller.

[HarveyWallbangers]

That's typical Capers, 4 guys in the box, and only 1 of them a decent run defender (Jolly)... the run is never even a consideration - 43 yds later it isn't either.

2nd and 18. It's not like they were playing the run on 2nd and 18 and gave up a big pass play. 2nd and 18 is precisely the time not to play run.

[Maxie the Taxi]

I thought Jolly had a poor performance. One blocker generally controlled him and he couldn't shake loose. I would not be surprised to see him cut.

[pbmax]

Capers is very unsound in what he does.

This I actually agree with to a degree. They have had difficulty plugging run leaks since 2010. But the biggest failure on this play is single blocked Johnny Jolly getting driven out of the hole.

If you play nickel, you are more vulnerable to the run, simply no way around it. Seahawks choose to attack the vulnerability. Packers failed to execute to keep it under a 9 yard run.

Jolly, Lattimore or Moses, if played better technique, could have limited the damage. You just need to keep it in the single digits to get a win here.

Unhappy with Jolly here but the other two are backups and their reactions aren't fast enough.

[wist43]

[All directions here are from computer screen or offensive perspective]
Its an outside zone, they are cutting the backside (left) and Francois (MLB over nose) jumps to the inside. Without occupying a blocker, he takes himself out of the play.

Daniels on left beats the cut block but is too late to make a play in the backfield and trails the play.

Lattimore, who is aligned left for reasons that are not clear is at a traditional LB depth for a pass play. But when Frenchy jumps left, there are two LBs on the weak side. Lattimore is signaling to a DB and misses the snap.

Jolly has the biggest failure as he gets driven off the ball and out of the hole. If Jolly cannot be counted on standing up to single blocking then get your wist on, season on D is over.

Moses is OLB left and reacts slowly to play, does not flatten out down the line and chase. About as unlike Matthews as possible. Because he is late and because Lattimore was late as well, Unger is blocking Lattimore at the depth Moses retreats to to chase. When he encounters the trash, he retreats further and is farther and is useless.

Execution. Not size.

Max, the alignment itself is fatally flawed... 2-nothing in the middle of the field - if the RB breaks the LOS - which is likely considering all the OL has to do is block 1 or 2 guys playside... then it becomes an open field situation b/c Capers has given them an open field.

Michael was never touched.

I don't blame the players here at all - not at all. The fault is all on Capers.

[pbmax]

snip
NEGATIVES
1st OL pass blocking


Think you mean run here.

[mraynrand]

This I actually agree with to a degree. They have had difficulty plugging run leaks since 2010. But the biggest failure on this play is single blocked Johnny Jolly getting driven out of the hole.

If you play nickel, you are more vulnerable to the run, simply no way around it. Seahawks choose to attack the vulnerability. Packers failed to execute to keep it under a 9 yard run.
Jolly, Lattimore or Moses, if played better technique, could have limited the damage. You just need to keep it in the single digits to get a win here.

Unhappy with Jolly here but the other two are backups and their reactions aren't fast enough.

so this is the part I don't get. Is Capers supposed to design a defense where he expects Jolly to get beat on a single block and two guys to blow their assignments? What does that look like?

[pbmax]

Max, the alignment itself is fatally flawed... 2-nothing in the middle of the field - if the RB breaks the LOS - which is likely considering all the OL has to do is block 1 or 2 guys playside... then it becomes an open field situation b/c Capers has given them an open field.

Michael was never touched.

I don't blame the players here at all - not at all. The fault is all on Capers.

Jolly got beat, man on man. No scheme or alignment change can help you there.

My only question about this alignment is Lattimore. Why does he jump around the center? If he engages Unger is ANY way, Lattimore flows unmolested directly to the ball even if he was late after signaling to his right.

[wist43]

This I actually agree with to a degree. They have had difficulty plugging run leaks since 2010. But the biggest failure on this play is single blocked Johnny Jolly getting driven out of the hole.

If you play nickel, you are more vulnerable to the run, simply no way around it. Seahawks choose to attack the vulnerability. Packers failed to execute to keep it under a 9 yard run.
Jolly, Lattimore or Moses, if played better technique, could have limited the damage. You just need to keep it in the single digits to get a win here.

Unhappy with Jolly here but the other two are backups and their reactions aren't fast enough.

That isn't even a nickel max - b/c they aren't taking a LB out, they're taking DL out. It's more like a penny defense.

I noticed Jolly got handled on that play, but if the only defense you have against a 43 yd gash for a TD is 1 DL holding up an entire side of the LOS - then something is seriously amiss in the thought process that puts that alignment on the field to begin with!!!

That's the problem... that alignment should never get on the field. It is unsound, and was shown to be unsound last night - just as it has been shown to be unsound over and over again as our Packers are consistently getting run over.

It's hard to watch, and I cringe at every presnap alignment Capers throws out there... he's a complete idiot that has to go.

[pbmax]

so this is the part I don't get. Is Capers supposed to design a defense where he expects Jolly to get beat on a single block and two guys to blow their assignments? What does that look like?

What wist wants is 3 DL. But that puts a safety on a WR. Pick your poison. Seahawks are running 3 WR, 1 TE and 1 RB. Something the Packers do a lot of.

Wilson counts and sees nickel and/or 3 CB. Chooses run and aligns the TE to FB. Its nothing clever, but the D needs to execute. I think Francois should not have jumped around the center. Once he does that he is useless. Jolly gets trashed meaning the RB has a clear path to the second level. if Jolly can hold ground, it squeezes the RB and brings help closer.

[wist43]

Jolly got beat, man on man. No scheme or alignment change can help you there.

My only question about this alignment is Lattimore. Why does he jump around the center? If he engages Unger is ANY way, Lattimore flows unmolested directly to the ball even if he was late after signaling to his right.

Of course alignment can help him there... if you have another DL on that side, or assigned to an adjacent gap, Jolly can bail the other way... or a LB can fill - but there isn't another DL, and there is no LB - it is Jolly on a complete island.

Yes I agree Jolly got handled on that play, but where is anybody else to that playside?? The answer is nowhere, b/c the alignment is unsound.

[pbmax]

That isn't even a nickel max - b/c they aren't taking a LB out, they're taking DL out. It's more like a penny defense.

Nearly all 3-4 teams run it this way. The only time you see 3-3-5 is against a team that cannot pass (Jets).

[wist43]

What wist wants is 3 DL. But that puts a safety on a WR. Pick your poison. Seahawks are running 3 WR, 1 TE and 1 RB. Something the Packers do a lot of.

Wilson counts and sees nickel and/or 3 CB. Chooses run and aligns the TE to FB. Its nothing clever, but the D needs to execute. I think Francois should not have jumped around the center. Once he does that he is useless. Jolly gets trashed meaning the RB has a clear path to the second level. if Jolly can hold ground, it squeezes the RB and brings help closer.

Yes max... "pick your poison" - give up a 43 yd TD run, or a 43 yd TD pass. Those are the options, lol...

How is it that other teams manage to get stops?? It's an amazment I guess.

Good grief.

[wist43]

so this is the part I don't get. Is Capers supposed to design a defense where he expects Jolly to get beat on a single block and two guys to blow their assignments? What does that look like?

It looks like Michael's 43 yd TD run ;)

Just the way Capers designed it...

It's unsound b/c it doesn't account for the run in any way - get it?? It's unsound?? get it??

Do you understand what unsound means??

[Fritz]

It may have been a preseason game - but what we saw last night was simply a continuation of what we saw against power teams last year.

Our OL getting pushed around, MM calling his 3 running plays; Capers playing as small and soft as possible - giving up explosive plays all over the place...

Given the schemes we run, and the philosophies of the team - we are pretty much helpless against power teams. You would think that getting the living hell kicked out of you so many times, in the same way every time, would push you to consider that maybe there is something wrong with your approach, but that seems to have never crossed the minds of the brain trust at 1265.

Capers is a complete disaster... so nothing can be done for the defense until he is fired.

On offense, we might as well pass it every down and put it in Rodgers hands. We're a QB driven team - and need Rodgers to play lights out perfect every game.

The philosophies of this team on both sides of ball are fundamentally flawed. Against other finesse teams we're probably the SB champ every year; but against power teams we're helpless. They push us around and beat us up... and there's nothing we can do about it.

I think we have good enough players to compete, but the passive philosophies of the coaching staff negate the talent.


I agree that the offensive line play was extremely troubling last night, from all I have read. EDS was supposed to be an upgrade on Saturday, but he played more like Wednesday (Adaams Family) or Tuesday (Weld). Lang really just does not seem to be a good guard. And the team is starting an UDFA at one tackle spot and a 4th round rookie at the key left tackle spot.

However, what you ascribe to some seemingly deliberate attempt to be "passive" and "finess" can be explained in other, more logical ways. First, you keep trumpeting how much more "real" you are than anyone who does not agree with your sky-is-falling feelings.

So, if you want to be "real," you really must acknowledge that even in the injury-plagued world of the NFL it's unusual to have two first round tackle picks (taken in two of the last three drafts) go down to injury - one with a single, shattering injury, the other, over and over.

Of course it's hard to say how good Sherrod might have been or could be. Opinions are all over the board. But it's fair to say that talent-wise he was better than Newhouse or Barclay, and possibly Bahkteria. I would argue had Sherrod not suffered that injury, OR had Bulaga not gotten hurt (again) - notice I say OR and not AND - this team's offensive line play would at least be a little better, particularly in terms of protection.

I do think the team has fallen short in terms of acquiring guard/center talent - but wait, they did draft a player they'd projected to center. But he got hurt, too.

Injuries are not excuses, no. But when we are on this forum trying to understand and explain why the line play has been so poor, injuries must be considered as one factor. In my estimation, a much more reasonable factor than the idea that McCarthy likes finesse and really, doesn't want to field a tough team. That, to me, is a patently ridiculous idea. McCarthy attacks defenses - sometimes too much, in my opinion. Sometimes, when a six yard completion will do the trick, he calls for long pass plays (or Rodgers maybe chooses the big play over the shorter completion; it's hard to say).

I do think that Thompson might want to reassess the types of players he drafts to play center and guard. I think, though I do not know for sure, that Sitton was a guard in college. IF so, he's the only one on their line who was, I believe. I know Lang was a tackle in college, as was Tretter. I think most Packer linemen were tackles in college. And I understand that thinking, but maybe a little more physical strength and a little less mobility would work better at the guard spots. Sitton is fine, but it's Lang I'm thinking of here. And EDS at center.

While you clearly decided to jump all over this one exhibition game to support your contentions, I will try to forego that one-sample-proves-my-point should the Packers play well against SF, particularly if they run the ball well and stop SF defensively. It's a long season. Things can, and do, change.

I grew up a University of Michigan fan in the Bo "Run the football" Schembechler era. He used to say they played what he called "Smaishmouth football" (he had a funny way of pronouncing "smashmouth." I listened to an old U of M broadcast; a 1970's game against Michigan State. Michigan passed the ball three times - in the whole game.

So I come from a background in which I learned that running the ball is good. Passing is dangerous. Controlling the line of scrimmage is done by running the ball. So it's not like I don't have a natural affinity for the idea of power football.

However, watching the game over the years, both NFL and college, it's clear that the game has evolved. The rules have evolved, too. McCarthy's air-attack approach works way better than anyone who might try to run the ball all the time, like back in the day. So while it makes me uncomfortable (I still yell "run the damn ball!" about fifteen times a game when Rodgers goes back to pass), I have come to realize that maybe I need to try to learn to live with the new game. Because it mostly works.

Now, the Packers still need a better running game, and that does start with the offensive line. But they don't need to hang their hats on running the ball with power as their primary mode of transporting the football.

The Packers still attack - it's not "soft" to attack what you see as weak spots in the other team's defense. It's just not what you think of as "attacking."

[pbmax]

If you go here, where I got the screen cap: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2013082300/2013/PRE3/seahawks@packers#menu=highlights&tab=recap

at 31 seconds you can pause and see Daniels, Francois and Lattimore all in the same gap backside. It can't be Daniels fault because he is trailing from backside and beat his guy.

Either Lattimore is aligned wrong OR Francois should have done something, ANYTHING other than jump to (screen) left. When Jolly is beat, the (screen) left A and B gap is wide open.

On this play this alignment is unsound. But its mostly unsound because somehow has failed to man a gap. We will never find out and that drives me bonkers.

[Tony Oday]

My god Wish send your insights, no matter how wrong, to the team I am sure MM will fire Capers in a second and take on your highschool defensive schemes. Face it the first team d held the offense in check and with AR and Lacey in the whole game we win by three TDs.

[wist43]

You guys are such a hoot... we get absolutely pounded; all of the same problems we had last year on display over and over again; and you guys can't call a spade a spade... just excuses and defending the status quo. Amazing.

Now if you'll excuse me - I have a horse to go train ;)

[Fritz]

On second and eighteen, I would think it irresponsible if a D-coordinator ran a run-defense formation out there.

I'm curious as to PB's analysis - I wonder who fudge up the assignment, besides Jolly getting killed one-on-one? Was it Lattimore, or Francois? These guys are the top two backup ILB's.

[Freak Out]

I watched the 1st QTR and saw what I expected really. Backups for a couple of starting WRs making some mistakes....the OL letting Rodgers get knocked around a bit...and Harris running into the pile. Oh yes....and guys getting hurt.

[Freak Out]

I want VY as the backup QB....is that wrong?

[pittstang5]

What we saw last night could be a preview against the 49ers. The Packers are going to have to set up the pass to establish the run against teams like the Seashawks, Giants and 49ers. This O-line is just not built to pound big, tough, nasty d-lines like those teams I mentioned. The o-line is what it is and is not going to get better, might even get worse if anyone gets hurt. But, from what I saw last night, the Packers CAN run the ball, but everybody has to be in sync - including the RBs and the QB. EDS probably had the worst game last night. He really pissed me off. There's a reason he was a back-up for so long. But, as I said, we're stuck with these guys until, at least, next year. Bitching about it and saying, " I told you so," isn't going to help the situation. We just have to deal.

[Pugger]

I would think the big guys will get better as the season progresses. I would think having them watch tape of this game will be a learning opportunity of nothing else. After the first series I was pleased with the D for the most part. Seattle got one TD on a gift turnover late in the game.

[Fritz]

I do hope the sphincters of the offensive linemen pucker in shame as they watch that game tape.

[mraynrand]

It looks like Michael's 43 yd TD run ;)

Just the way Capers designed it...

It's unsound b/c it doesn't account for the run in any way - get it?? It's unsound?? get it??

Do you understand what unsound means??

If one guy gets beat one on one, and two guys execute improperly, won't that defense be unsound regardless of the scheme. Let's say you have in a nickel and one corner gets beat flat out and a safety and the other corner execute poorly. Isn't that unsound too - won't that get beat more often than not? Having poor players is unsound.

[pbmax]

What we saw last night could be a preview against the 49ers. The Packers are going to have to set up the pass to establish the run against teams like the Seashawks, Giants and 49ers. This O-line is just not built to pound big, tough, nasty d-lines like those teams I mentioned. The o-line is what it is and is not going to get better, might even get worse if anyone gets hurt. But, from what I saw last night, the Packers CAN run the ball, but everybody has to be in sync - including the RBs and the QB. EDS probably had the worst game last night. He really pissed me off. There's a reason he was a back-up for so long. But, as I said, we're stuck with these guys until, at least, next year. Bitching about it and saying, " I told you so," isn't going to help the situation. We just have to deal.

I wouldn't confuse the Giants defense with the West Coast. Giants have had some awful trouble with the run defense lately.

[pbmax]

I want VY as the backup QB....is that wrong?

Not wrong. Unsound maybe, but not wrong.

:lol:

[digitaldean]

I want VY as the backup QB....is that wrong?

Unless someone of a higher caliber from a similar system gets cut (unlikely), then I want VY. Harrell is too sporadic. He had one beautiful pass that Jones didn't keep running on. (if he does that he catches the ball for a big gain at the very least). Finley doesn't come up with a catch on 4th down that Harrell threw in a tough spot (but the right spot due to where the D was - and it's a catch a big money TE makes). On the flip side, Harrell had multiple balls that sailed on him. It's time to fish or cut bait for him. Right now, I'd say VY gets the nod over Harrell.

O-line was horrible in all run blocking phases. The hold on Bakhtiari was a phantom call. Otherwise, there was penetration all night causing blocked running lanes, blocked passes, etc. Seattle DL is very good, but our o-line needs to step it up.

Special teams punt team, except Masthay, was God-Awful. From Slocum not having the correct players on the field, to Means' not coming back in bounds and the lousy lane coverage on punts, it was an all around debacle. Crosby was OK, Tavecchio didn't kick that deep when he had the chance.

D-Line got some OK pass rush, but mainly was Claymaker doing it. Jones did fine in adding some rush. Main concern is O-line. What use is the new RB's if we can't open even a basic hole? Abyssmal.

[pbmax]

Harrell is too sporadic. He had one beautiful pass that Jones didn't keep running on. (if he does that he catches the ball for a big gain at the very least).

I could give him a pass on that one as it was precisely where it needed to be. Almost as true of Finley near TD. More time Harrell has with Jones and he probably doesn't stop.

But the rest of the throws, including the short stuff was terrible at times.

[packer4life]

Well enough with trying to prove wist wrong. The majority can ignore his prerogative.

In other news the defensive line for pass rush looked SOLID. We are deeper than the last two years, and this was without datone flashing which will come with a bit more experience.

I will admit the run game looked poor but please remember our backup OL will not have a chance against A top 5 defensive front. Starting OL vs their starting DL would've been somewhat productive, but as pointed out Harris repeatedly missed cutbacks and holes that he will hit once he shakes off the rust. Lacy would've found those holes.

Sloppy game overall but nothing glaring to show us our Achilles heel for the year. Defensive line is an upgrade, OL needs to gel for the run but our play action game is going to dominate once we get rollin

[Harlan Huckleby]

I didn't see any obvious weak link in the run blocking. Sitton got blown up a couple times. The good news is that most of the guys sustained their blocks most of the time. But it only takes one unblocked linebacker to ruin a play. I disagree that Lang or EDS were horrible. The whole unit is just not reliable, which is maybe fixable with work. Or not, we'll have to see.

[swede]

I didn't see any obvious weak link in the run blocking. Sitton got blown up a couple times. The good news is that most of the guys sustained their blocks most of the time. But it only takes one unblocked linebacker to ruin a play. I disagree that Lang or EDS were horrible. The whole unit is just not reliable, which is maybe fixable with work. Or not, we'll have to see.

I kept rewinding the play in the 2nd quarter where Harrell right tossed it to the RB and the play was buried for a loss. The whole right side of the line was whiffing in several directions at once. Either they couldn't figure out the assignments against that D or the communication was poor.

I only mention this because it made me sad and hurt my feelings.

[denverYooper]

Well enough with trying to prove wist wrong. The majority can ignore his prerogative.

In other news the defensive line for pass rush looked SOLID. We are deeper than the last two years, and this was without datone flashing which will come with a bit more experience.

I will admit the run game looked poor but please remember our backup OL will not have a chance against A top 5 defensive front. Starting OL vs their starting DL would've been somewhat productive, but as pointed out Harris repeatedly missed cutbacks and holes that he will hit once he shakes off the rust. Lacy would've found those holes.

Sloppy game overall but nothing glaring to show us our Achilles heel for the year. Defensive line is an upgrade, OL needs to gel for the run but our play action game is going to dominate once we get rollin

This pretty much sums up my thoughts as well. The DL from top to bottom has impressed me the most the preseason.

[Joemailman]

Well enough with trying to prove wist wrong. The majority can ignore his prerogative.

In other news the defensive line for pass rush looked SOLID. We are deeper than the last two years, and this was without datone flashing which will come with a bit more experience.

I will admit the run game looked poor but please remember our backup OL will not have a chance against A top 5 defensive front. Starting OL vs their starting DL would've been somewhat productive, but as pointed out Harris repeatedly missed cutbacks and holes that he will hit once he shakes off the rust. Lacy would've found those holes.

Sloppy game overall but nothing glaring to show us our Achilles heel for the year. Defensive line is an upgrade, OL needs to gel for the run but our play action game is going to dominate once we get rollin

Please don't use metaphors like that when discussing the Packers. Makes me nervous. Don't use the term hamstrung, broken or strained either.

[gbgary]

last night didn't prove anything. sea took the game way more seriously than we did. proof was their insistence on playing their #1s so long, their chippiness, and pete carroll acting like a mad man. don't know if it was the plan or not, to only play AR one series, but when he got rolled-up on that one pass play i'm glad they did. the sf game will tell a lot more. it's a long season and things will evolve. we'll be the nfc north champs and then who knows.

[Mazzin]

Seattle easily has one of the top 3 defenses in all of football. Add in the fact that we pulled starters right out of the gate, I think we did quite well. I can't imagine this site after we play the 49ers week one. We got a chance, but a SMALL ONE. If we lose Wist will be spewing more of this nonsense.

[denverYooper]

Packers fared much better than Denver, and Den left their 1s out there a lot longer.

[wist43]

You guys are all Sgt. Schultz fans... "I see NUTTING!!!"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34ag4nkSh7Q

Everything from last night was a repeat of everything that was wrong with the team last year.

166 rushing yds allowed
75 yds rush (32 yds from RB's)

OL getting tossed around
Capers playing small on defense and getting gashed on far too many plays.

Yet, you guys see none of the reality, you see only what you want to see - like I said, you're amazing ;)

[wist43]

On second and eighteen, I would think it irresponsible if a D-coordinator ran a run-defense formation out there.

I'm curious as to PB's analysis - I wonder who fudge up the assignment, besides Jolly getting killed one-on-one? Was it Lattimore, or Francois? These guys are the top two backup ILB's.

I'm not saying put a "run-defense" out there - since when is a nickel a run defense??

It's simply a matter of accounting for gaps and underneath responsibilities - Capers does not do that - at all!!! Look at that alignment Max posted... I would think that even ayn could devise a way to get the ball carrier past the LOS untouched - then it just turns into an open field angles contest.

Capers is soooooo sure there will be a pass, that he doesn't consider "what if" there is a run at all... you have to account for the run even in long down and distance situations b/c of what we see happen all the time to Capers defense.

Capers continues to ignore it though, and we are constantly getting burned. It doesn't bother you guys for whatever reason... but what Capers does with his alignments is often times very, very unsound - and that 43 yd run is exhibit A.

[pbmax]

Speaking of wist, I found a perfect football match for him earlier this week online. First name is Amy, here is her bio:

http://mmqb.si.com/2013/08/23/from-the-front-office-to-a-front-row-seat/

See #5 for her most important dislike.

[Fritz]

I'm not saying put a "run-defense" out there - since when is a nickel a run defense??

It's simply a matter of accounting for gaps and underneath responsibilities - Capers does not do that - at all!!! Look at that alignment Max posted... I would think that even ayn could devise a way to get the ball carrier past the LOS untouched - then it just turns into an open field angles contest.

Capers is soooooo sure there will be a pass, that he doesn't consider "what if" there is a run at all... you have to account for the run even in long down and distance situations b/c of what we see happen all the time to Capers defense.

Capers continues to ignore it though, and we are constantly getting burned. It doesn't bother you guys for whatever reason... but what Capers does with his alignments is often times very, very unsound - and that 43 yd run is exhibit A.



As PB has pointed out, the problem had to do with the execution - the players that you say are just fine failed in their assignments - two, if not three, of them.

It was one play, one exhibition game. Let's see how it all plays out.

[packer4life]

Can we please move on from the SAME discussion we have ad nauseum on this board regarding Capers hate for defensive lineman? I'd almost rather see 579 written all over the place

In other news, hook em Vince

[mraynrand]

Not wrong. Unsound maybe, but not wrong.

:lol:

sound riposte

[wist43]

As PB has pointed out, the problem had to do with the execution - the players that you say are just fine failed in their assignments - two, if not three, of them.

That's bullshit... you're dead before the snap of the ball in that alignment against the run. You can think for yourself - look at that alignment, go back and look at the play - even if Jolly had won his battle, Michael would still have had plenty of running room. Maybe he doesn't take it the distance, maybe the extra time it takes him to read and get around Jolly affords the pursuit enough time to get in position to corral Michael - but even if that is the case, Michael still runs at least 15 years there.

It's an idiotic formation - always and forever.

You're putting those players in an impossible position - I don't judge the players guilty of anything except being put in a position to fail. That's entirely on Dom Capers.

Read Sun Tzu would ya!!!


It was one play, one exhibition game. Let's see how it all plays out.

If it were just one play in a meaningless preseason game - I wouldn't bitch... seriously, I wouldn't bitch. I would look at it and say WTF was he thinking... and write it off as trying something crazy just to see if it were crazy enough to work, but I wouldn't get my shorts in a twist over it.

I do get my shorts in a twist though b/c it isn't "just one play"!! It is all the time with this idiot... Capers wants to run the 2-4 as his base as much as possible.

Some teams throw it out there against us b/c -

1) We really are likely to throw.

2) Even if we do run, they can be reasonably assured that they can stop our running game with only 6 guys in the box.

I've erased all of last years games, but go back and look at some games if you still have them on your DVR. Capers version of the 2-4 is a disaster... he gets away with it against weak offenses, but against power teams - the results are nothing short of mind bending - yet, he keeps doing the same thing over and over.

We gave up 166 yds rushing last night.

Against SF in the playoff - take away every yard that Kapnerfucker gained (181), and we still gave up 142 yds rushing.

Week 1 against SF in the 30-22 beating, we gave up 186 yds rushing.

Week 3 against Sea we gave up 127 yds rushing - and that was before their rookie QB had his feet on the ground (remember the end of half 1-5 alignment??)

Week 5 against Indy - honorable mention b/c of the sheer stupidity of allowing Andrew Luck 362 yds passing, and Wayne 212 yds receiving... almost all of it in 1 half!!!

Week 12 against NYG - we gave up 147 yds rushing in a 38-10 ass whipping

Week 13 against Minn - we gave up 240 yds!!! 240 stinking yds rushing!!! AP or not, there's no excuse for that :oops:

Week 17 against Minn - we gave up 217 yds rushing!!! IN A GAME WE NEEDED, IN A GAME WE LOST, IN A GAME THAT COST US HOMEFIELD!!!

I already mentioned the SF playoff debacle - but it is worth reiterating - 323 MF'inf, stinking, disgusting, filthy, mind numbingly painful rushing yds allowed!!!! Wow, just F'ing wow!!!

-------------------------------------------------------------

One preseason game??

I don't think so... this has been a festering mess for 2 years.

[wist43]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Why you guys make excuses for that mess, is beyond me... I think Capers must be spiking your kool-aid or something.

If you're okay with giving up 166 yds rushing, and 217 yds rushing, and 323 yds rushing, and 240 yds rushing, and on and on... then Dom Capers is your DC for life ;)

[wist43]

Can we please move on from the SAME discussion we have ad nauseum on this board regarding Capers hate for defensive lineman? I'd almost rather see 579 written all over the place

In other news, hook em Vince

LOL

Yes, our 2nd string QB should be everyones focus - perhaps you should start a thread??

I started a thread on something that will actually affect our season.

If VY is our starting QB for more than 1 or 2 games, we won't have a season, we will have a prelude to next years draft ;)

[mraynrand]

You're putting those players in an impossible position - [B]I don't judge the players guilty of anything except being put in a position to fail. That's entirely on Dom Capers.

That's right, they have no accountability!! They're just victims!! LOL

[mraynrand]

If VY is our starting QB for more than 1 or 2 games, we won't have a season, we will have a prelude to next years draft ;)

If only we had wisely picked up Colt McCoy! But, I forgot, TT doesn't want to win, doesn't care about the backup QB situation, and McCarthy would never put his players in a position to be successful anyway! LOL

[wist43]

That's right, they have no accountability!! They're just victims!! LOL

You're sounding more and more like a liberal every day - might I suggest a relaxing marijuana cigarette??

I've heard it has a calming effect ;)

[Patler]

Special teams punt team, except Masthay, was God-Awful. From Slocum not having the correct players on the field, to Means' not coming back in bounds and the lousy lane coverage on punts, it was an all around debacle.

Is it just a coincidence that Jarrett Bush did not play?????

[Smeefers]

I just dont get why we continue to leave anyone who goes over the middle completely uncovered

For years, teams have been able to throw at will over the middle on us

Why can we not stop this?

The middle of the field is pretty hard to cover. Rodgers and Driver made a name for themselves going over the middle with those quick slants. What teams do to deter that is beat the piss out of the receiver when he goes over the middle. Make them hear footsteps. The other way is to drop LB's back in hopes that they pick em off or interrupt the catch with a bone crushing tackle or by sending your safety in to take away that slant. Of course, when you do that, you open up a whole other can of worms by leaving guys one on one or not having a strong pass rush.

The slant is one of the best routes you can run in the league if you have an accurate QB.

[Smeefers]

It wasn't just Jarrett Bush. At the game I started reading the names off the backs of the Jersey's and I didn't recognize any of them except Franklin. No Moses, No Lattimore... I don't think they played their starters on Special Teams.

[Smeefers]

It may have been a preseason game - but what we saw last night was simply a continuation of what we saw against power teams last year.

Our OL getting pushed around, MM calling his 3 running plays; Capers playing as small and soft as possible - giving up explosive plays all over the place...

Given the schemes we run, and the philosophies of the team - we are pretty much helpless against power teams. You would think that getting the living hell kicked out of you so many times, in the same way every time, would push you to consider that maybe there is something wrong with your approach, but that seems to have never crossed the minds of the brain trust at 1265.

Capers is a complete disaster... so nothing can be done for the defense until he is fired.

On offense, we might as well pass it every down and put it in Rodgers hands. We're a QB driven team - and need Rodgers to play lights out perfect every game.

The philosophies of this team on both sides of ball are fundamentally flawed. Against other finesse teams we're probably the SB champ every year; but against power teams we're helpless. They push us around and beat us up... and there's nothing we can do about it.

I think we have good enough players to compete, but the passive philosophies of the coaching staff negate the talent.

I have to think you're just trying to rile everyone up here. You're a smart guy, you know that these games are used as tools, not to win. MM rushed Lacey 3 times in a row while in obvious rushing formations against stop the run defenses. I think he might of called over and said "hey, we're gonna run the ball. Mind trying to stop us? I want to see what this back really has." He gave Harris every chance to "keep" his starting RB job and that kid fell on his face... err.. knee. What I saw that interested me is that Jolly was sprinkled in there during the first few snaps of the game and he played well. That tells me he's going to be a rotational guy for us and that it's no longer a question of whether he has a job or not. You know what else I saw? Finley is going to have a freaking amazing year. The dude is firing on all cylinders. Remember when we were talking about possibly having 3 1000 yard recievers? Ain't gonna happen, Finley is going to steal about 300 yards from each guy and blow them all out of the water. After the end of the 1st quarter, main Defensive players sat out. No more Mathews, Raji only sparingly, no more Picket, no more Hawk and SS took a seat as well. I'm more concerned about Hayward re-injuring his hammy than I am about any explosive plays or the final score.

Wist, do you honestly believe the preseason has anything to do with football other than player development? Do you think winning more preseason games means winning more regular season games? Do you think the two "#1's" going against one another is a good indicator of how they would play in the regular season? Do you believe that our team is trying to win preseason games? Do you think they should be trying to win preseason games? Do you think preseason games are where coaches should be testing out their schemes, their wrinkles, their trick plays? Are you concerned if our 3rd stringers give up big plays to their 3rd stringers?

Do you just not like capers? Is that it?

[denverYooper]

It wasn't just Jarrett Bush. At the game I started reading the names off the backs of the Jersey's and I didn't recognize any of them except Franklin. No Moses, No Lattimore... I don't think they played their starters on Special Teams.

Good catch on ST. I suppose they threw a bunch of bubble guys out there to help figure out the 75.

[wist43]

I have to think you're just trying to rile everyone up here. You're a smart guy, you know that these games are used as tools, not to win. MM rushed Lacey 3 times in a row while in obvious rushing formations against stop the run defenses. I think he might of called over and said "hey, we're gonna run the ball. Mind trying to stop us? I want to see what this back really has." He gave Harris every chance to "keep" his starting RB job and that kid fell on his face... err.. knee. What I saw that interested me is that Jolly was sprinkled in there during the first few snaps of the game and he played well. That tells me he's going to be a rotational guy for us and that it's no longer a question of whether he has a job or not. You know what else I saw? Finley is going to have a freaking amazing year. The dude is firing on all cylinders. Remember when we were talking about possibly having 3 1000 yard recievers? Ain't gonna happen, Finley is going to steal about 300 yards from each guy and blow them all out of the water. After the end of the 1st quarter, main Defensive players sat out. No more Mathews, Raji only sparingly, no more Picket, no more Hawk and SS took a seat as well. I'm more concerned about Hayward re-injuring his hammy than I am about any explosive plays or the final score.

Wist, do you honestly believe the preseason has anything to do with football other than player development? Do you think winning more preseason games means winning more regular season games? Do you think the two "#1's" going against one another is a good indicator of how they would play in the regular season? Do you believe that our team is trying to win preseason games? Do you think they should be trying to win preseason games? Do you think preseason games are where coaches should be testing out their schemes, their wrinkles, their trick plays? Are you concerned if our 3rd stringers give up big plays to their 3rd stringers?

Do you just not like capers? Is that it?

I don't care about winning a preaseason game - what I care about are schemes and alignments - especially on defense.

I pay less attention to the offense b/c MM, generally, is a passing game genius - and I don't question him at all in that area.

I do question his approach to running the ball - and the dismal results should have him questioning it as well. He has occassionally incorporated some power running plays, and when he has they've been successful - to whatever extent, but he's so married to his 3 zone plays, that he simply won't come off of them, and our running game suffers greatly as a result.

The other problem in the running game is "mobile OL". They draft guys that can hit a LB in the open field - at least some of the time, but stand no chance of getting any movement in the running game man for man - they're simply an underpowered group, and it shows. That is a philosophical weakness - and they've shown no inclination to change the template they use to procure OL.

We have a very poor OL. The players are average at best, but the philosphy makes everything worse.

On defense - what a mess.

I say that, while at the same time acknowledging I like a lot of the players. So yes, it comes down to Capers. The dismal results should be obvious to everyone, yet he is still our DC.

3 of the last 4 years our defense has been blown out of the playoffs. The one year we weren't was the SB year, which everyone clings to. I point to the facts that led to the SB win, and see that stretch as the outlier - the dismal defensive performances all around it as the trend. Homers cannot, will not, be honest with themselves and see that reality.

I gave a brief run down of some of the pathetic performances of this defense from last year - but the mess goes back further than that. The Arizona playoff debacle, the NYG ass whipping, and last years SF thrashing seem to flitter out of the minds of the homers as soon as draft time comes rolling along - then it's 'Optimism Happy-time', and prozac pills all around.

Our defense has produced 2 of the most embarrassing defensive performances in my memory as a Packer fan - setting the all-time record in passing yds allowed, and last years record setting performance by Kapernerfucker.

Throw in the 200+ yd performances by AP last year, and all of the other embarrassments Capers has thrown out there... how does this idiot still have a job?? I find it utterly amazing!!!

Not only does he still have his job - PackerRats worship the guy - and he has spraypaintedhair!!!

I rest my case :)

[Carolina_Packer]

last night didn't prove anything. sea took the game way more seriously than we did. proof was their insistence on playing their #1s so long, their chippiness, and pete carroll acting like a mad man. don't know if it was the plan or not, to only play AR one series, but when he got rolled-up on that one pass play i'm glad they did. the sf game will tell a lot more. it's a long season and things will evolve. we'll be the nfc north champs and then who knows.

Gary, I agree. This is the best labratory/test setting that MM has, besides practice to see what works and what doesn't. It's like Spring training baseball. A pitcher working on a new pitch who hasn't yet located it where he needs to and gets taken deep, and fans of the team saying, "what's wrong with our best pitcher?" Well, nothing. Because he is not going to throw that pitch in a regular season game, if he can't get it over for a strike. I think MM is willing to try different personnel groupings to put players in positions to see different things, against higher-level talent, so they gain the valuable experience, and the coaches have the tape with which to teach them. Like I quoted before, the only thing about pre-season that resembles the regular season is the ball. More times than not, you would like to see players win in one-on-one situations in the pre-season. Sometimes it's hard to judge play that requires coordination, such as a line blocking for a back. If there's no space, there's no space. However, if the back is in the open field, I want to see him make a defender miss, or break the tackle. That's how I see pre-season. The personnel groupings are so varied, and you're never going to see these combos again. As for the scheme; players play schemes. Their talent either allows them to make plays or not make plays. A different scheme with the same talent may not produce a different result.

[mraynrand]

You're sounding more and more like a liberal every day - might I suggest a relaxing marijuana cigarette??


denial and projection lead to rejection. You're the bozo who keeps saying it's all Capers fault when players blow their assignment. Keep validating their victim status!! LOL

[mraynrand]

I have to think you're just trying to rile everyone up here. You're a smart guy, you know that these games are used as tools, not to win. MM rushed Lacey 3 times in a row while in obvious rushing formations against stop the run defenses. I think he might of called over and said "hey, we're gonna run the ball. Mind trying to stop us? I want to see what this back really has." He gave Harris every chance to "keep" his starting RB job and that kid fell on his face... err.. knee.

I saw Clefty wrote something about this. Stubby said before the game that their purpose was evaluation. I think they were looking at backs and blocking by the O line on some of those obvious run plays. Perhaps they even wanted to see if Harrell might check out of them to a pass (assuming he had the authority to do so).

Nevertheless there was some serious hitting going on both sides of the ball. I think the Packers definitely were taking their shots - they remember the late hits and other cheap shots from last year. Surprising to see it in the preseason, but good to see those competitive juices flowing.

[pbmax]

I think they were hoping "knows the system" Harrell would know to check out of some of those plays. Have a bit more Rubley in him.

BTW, remember that Pete Carroll is the new Marty Schottenheimer.

[mraynrand]

I think they were hoping "knows the system" Harrell would know to check out of some of those plays. Have a bit more Rubley in him.

Harrell has all the savvy of a Jerry Babb

[George Cumby]

I think they were hoping "knows the system" Harrell would know to check out of some of those plays. Have a bit more Rubley in him.

BTW, remember that Pete Carroll is the new Marty Schottenheimer.

Dunno bout that one.

Schotty had class and was a good coach. PC is a classless, well......douche.

[run pMc]

Yeah, I'm pissed that our backups didn't play like All-Pros in the 3rd game of preseason.

We'll get that cleaned up and work on pad level.

[wist43]

denial and projection lead to rejection. You're the bozo who keeps saying it's all Capers fault when players blow their assignment. Keep validating their victim status!! LOL

What am I, the ACLU (Amerikan Communist Litigation Unit)??

Truly, the world has turned upside down :bs2:

[pbmax]

Yeah, I'm pissed that our backups didn't play like All-Pros in the 3rd game of preseason.

We'll get that cleaned up and work on pad level.

Marty also liked to win preseason games. He bought his own hype too frequently.

[George Cumby]

Marty also liked to win preseason games. He bought his own hype too frequently.

K. That makes sense as an analogy.

IMO, the wheels fall off of Seattle by the end of the season.