Me and my pal Wist (or, worst Training Camp EVER!!)

[bobblehead]

So, I was optimistic coming into camp, but at this point I find myself near wistlike in my pessimism. The Bulaga injury coupled with Sherrod not being ready has really dampened my enthusiasm.

Our OL is in disarray, and as much of a homer as I am, I can't see anything good of Bacteria and Barclay against the niners front. Coming in I thought EDS was our weakpoint, now he will be the "middleground" of talent. We like to be optimistic, but the OL injuries are a disastor waiting to happen. Even though some around here think the RB makes the line, you will find out quite differently when Lacy gets about 12 yards against the niners. What follows is predictable, MM stops trying to run, the OL has no shot against a D with their ears pinned back.

On D, I like the talent, but again, wist is right about one thing. We are in love with the 2-4. The depth and talent of the D is the Line, and the weakness is LB's not named Clay. I would rather run a 3-3 every single time. Collapse the pocket against mobile QB's and have one roving LB spying. A 2-4 creates too many size mismatches and leads to 2nd and 19 conversions with screens, scrambles and draws.

We are pathetic at ILB. I don't even want to get into it.

Basically lets look at what DIDN'T happen in TC. McMillan never came on like we hoped. Perry hasn't looked like a good complement. Our deep CB crop has been hurt all TC long. Sherrod didn't come back, Bulaga isn't the cure at LT, and our "deep" RBs have actually looked like shit (because its about the OL). We could have covered for Barclay at RT, but not BOTH tackles. Finally the injury bug that bites this team has grown new teeth and a resistance to all known medicines.

To top it off our WR starting studs will both be rusty and hobbled come week 1, and we don't even know who will be kicking the game winner if by some miracle we are in that position.

Lord I pray that I am wrong on all this, but things do not look good.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I wouldn't write off Perry yet. He looks like a stud on run defense. I think he'll be difficult for OTs because of his combination of speed and power. That's never been my big concern. He still loss lost in space though. I share your pessimism at OL and with McMillian. Also, with injuries and Crosby. Not so much with ILB. On the plus side, Lacy looks legit, Hyde is intriguing, the DL looks much improved, w might have a legit backup QB. There have been some real positives.

[denverYooper]

I agree about the OL. After watching the 9ers 1st string DL demolish the Vikings 1st OL yesterday, I had Very Bad Feelings. Those feelings were only mitigated somewhat by the fact that Ponder without AP looked dead in the water and that the Vikes line is built to run block. Also, St. Louis and Seattle have very good DLs themselves and GB's 1s didn't turn into a tire fire vs those units. Still... I'm not feeling very good about that matchup in week 1.

I am excited about the DL. They've given me reason to believe that they might be finally hitting their stride as a unit -- good mix of core vets and young talent. I feel like it'll translate to more competent looking D, even if the LB corps is mediocre (outside of CM3) right now.

[Bossman641]

I have already prepared myself for the experts and haters to have written this team off by the week 4 bye. With the injuries and youth I think it will take this team a while to hit their stride. Still feeling good about the season though - my concern over the OL has been matched by my optimism over the DL.

[Tony Oday]

Watching Klusternuts at QB against a pathetic secondary of the Vikes makes me wonder what the plus minus is on ints 3-4 would be my guess.

[mraynrand]

I have already prepared myself for the experts and haters to have written this team off by the week 4 bye. With the injuries and youth I think it will take this team a while to hit their stride. Still feeling good about the season though - my concern over the OL has been matched by my optimism over the DL.

1-2 at the bye, sky is falling, etc. etc. Team is destined for 10-11 wins, but will get stronger as the season progresses. Likely Divisional round loss again and no chance for title unless someone emerges at O-tackle and two on defense (two of D.Jones, Perry, Hayward) play at pro-bowl level. Of course, all this goes out the window with excessive injuries.

[Pugger]

I truly don't know why we are even bothering to play this season. Maybe we should forfeit until we get an O line so Rodgers will see his next birthday seeing our team is crap without him.

/sarcasm

[pbmax]

I agree about O line. ILB not so much. Jones looks like he has adapted well, but that hammy cannot take a month to heal. Still don't trust Lattimore or Francois full time.

Defense will be better and my only concern is CB depth. Need Hayward back to make it official, otherwise there is a lot of pressure on Hyde. Hopefully House renders Hayward's recovery moot but we'll see.

Rust will last 2 games. Not too worried about slow start as its a difficult part of the schedule. If Offense is firing on all cylinders by end of November for Vikes and Lions, going to be OK.

[Brandon494]

-You do realize that our O-line down the stretch last season was Newhouse/Lang/EDS/Sitton/Barclay right? So in a way we are improved with Bakhtiari at LT:grin:. The O-line is not as bad as everyone thinks, we are just lacking on depth which hopefully Sherrod will provide later in the season.

-Its the preseason, teams aren't going to show their hand for their week 1 opponents to get tape of, I'm sure you'll be seeing a different defense when the season starts.

-Perry will be an improvement over what we had last season

-We are still a top 5 team in the NFL

[cheesner]

Its nice to be in Clowney sweepstake. Can't wait till next year.

[pbmax]

-You do realize that our O-line down the stretch last season was Newhouse/Lang/EDS/Sitton/Barclay right? So in a way we are improved with Bakhtiari at LT:grin:. The O-line is not as bad as everyone thinks, we are just lacking on depth which hopefully Sherrod will provide later in the season.

I think its an open question about whether it will be improved*. Lang <--> Sitton is largely musical chairs, whatever run blocking edge Sitton has is offset partially by Lang's advantage in pass blocking. Bach has to accomplish something rarely done to make that group better. If he should fail, we go back to last year's lineup and we will get a true test of whether its the back or the O line that matters most.

My pessimism largely stems from the lack of depth, lack of EDS improvement and Tretter's injury. Sherrod being available would make the Tackle situation much more stable. But that is an open question.

*though to be fair that was the lineup for the best running of the year.

[MadScientist]

Our OL is in disarray, and as much of a homer as I am, I can't see anything good of Bacteria and Barclay against the niners front.
Neither of them are Marshmallow Newhouse, so that's good.

Every single stinking year the OL starts out like complete dog shit. Either TT and his scouts are the worst evaluators of OL talent in the history of the NFL or James fucking Campen is a shitty coach who can only be surviving on blackmail pictures.

[Zool]

EDS whiffs on a significant amount of blocks. He and Lang together are not playing well at all.

[bobblehead]

Neither of them are Marshmallow Newhouse, so that's good.

Every single stinking year the OL starts out like complete dog shit. Either TT and his scouts are the worst evaluators of OL talent in the history of the NFL or James fucking Campen is a shitty coach who can only be surviving on blackmail pictures.

Or we drafted the tackles of the next ten years and neither of them likely sees the field this season.

[Upnorth]

It looks like the line has regressed from last year, in particular EDS. I was expecting a big upgrade in the center of the line, but EDS is hesitant and pushed of the block compared to last year and Lang looks out of place on the right so far. On the bright side we can only get better most likely...

[denverYooper]

Crazy enough, Mike Tanier lists EDS as a possible breakout player in this column (http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/58388844/).

The FO guys usually do pretty good work, but honestly, this one has me scratching my head. Was EDS just that much better than Saturday last year that he looked like a gem?

[MadScientist]

Or we drafted the tackles of the next ten years and neither of them likely sees the field this season.

That doesn't help, but going back as far as '07, the line looked unprepared at the start of the season. It's more than just the personnel, the coaching just isn't good enough.

[RashanGary]

Lacy and Rodgers will make you a believe in the playmaker theory, bobble. Our DL looks stout as hell. Now we just need to get a little healthy and we have the makings of a SB team.

[mission]

I have already prepared myself for the experts and haters to have written this team off by the week 4 bye. With the injuries and youth I think it will take this team a while to hit their stride. Still feeling good about the season though - my concern over the OL has been matched by my optimism over the DL.

This. I wouldn't be surprised with an 0-2 start to the season and everyone will be freaking out (myself a little bit). Just think it will take some time for MM to establish the right offensive identity and the defense to gel. We'll be fine. 11-5, I say.

[wist43]

Our DL looks stout as hell.

You mean when both of them are out there??

Seriously, I haven't even looked at players on defense - what's the point when your DC is playing unsound alignments?? People used to talk about Ed Donatell's defensive system being unsound - but what Donatell designed was the Rock of Gilbralter compared to what Capers is doing.

You can't play a 2-4 base and expect not to get run over; and when Mr. Spraypaintedhair should be playing nickel, he's playing dime; and when he should be playing dime he goes to a 1-5; and when he does all these things, he's only a brain fart away from completely abandoning the middle of the field. It's mind numbing to watch.

I don't know if he thinks he's "ahead of the game" - the wave of the future, or what; but the alignments he puts on the field are much more of an issue than the capabilities of the players. The players are being put in positions to fail - when they fail, you guys will blame them.

I go back to Sun Tzu - eventually the responsibility has to lie with the General.

------------------------------------------------------

As for the players, the only one I've looked at individually much has been Bacteria. He looked okay against Ari and the Rams, not great, but okay - he looked completely overmatched against the Seahawks.

The OL is a mess - but that all goes back to TT and MM's philosophy of drafting "versatile", mobile OL that can play all 5 positions, but can't run block to save their lives - or at least run block in terms of getting movement one-on-one.

MM's run game is based on movement - no power allowed. All of the OL are underpowered by NFL standards - and it is Lacy who will be in for a rude awakening when he realizes that getting hit 2 yds behind the LOS makes it pretty tough to be busting off those 19 yd runs he was so used to at Alabama.

-------------------------------------------------------

By the by, welcome to reality Bobble... on this website?? it can get lonely over here :)

[wist43]

This. I wouldn't be surprised with an 0-2 start to the season and everyone will be freaking out (myself a little bit). Just think it will take some time for MM to establish the right offensive identity and the defense to gel. We'll be fine. 11-5, I say.

So, if we start 0-2... you have us going 11-3 the rest of the way?? Have you looked at the schedule??

We're going to lose more than 1 division game this year; we play @ Cinn (a very tough team - some are picking them for the SB); @ NYG (we simply don't match up with them); @ Baltimore; Atlanta at home...

That's a pretty tough row to hoe - to go 11-3.

I suspect we beat Washington, but if we don't, our season is in big trouble - which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing if it gets rid of Capers, and shakes some sense into MM concerning the running game.

[pbmax]

Crazy enough, Mike Tanier lists EDS as a possible breakout player in this column (http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/58388844/).

The FO guys usually do pretty good work, but honestly, this one has me scratching my head. Was EDS just that much better than Saturday last year that he looked like a gem?

He graded out last year well and was an obvious upgrade. But he has had some prodigious whiffs in the preseason. Kinda depends on if he cleans it up, esp. in the run game which is where he was clearly superior to Saturday.

[Tony Oday]

We will sweep the North, crush the aging Giants, out shoot the Falcons and the Bengals will again fail to impress. I love how you are impressed by the crap out there and not the team with the most wins the last three years. Seriously stop shaking your cane at the kids in your yard.

[pittstang5]

The Smith boys have to be licking their chops about going against Bak. Bak has looked better than a rookie 4th round pick, but he's still a rookie. Mulligan will probably be on his side to help block, i guess.

[mission]

So, if we start 0-2... you have us going 11-3 the rest of the way?? Have you looked at the schedule??

We're going to lose more than 1 division game this year; we play @ Cinn (a very tough team - some are picking them for the SB); @ NYG (we simply don't match up with them); @ Baltimore; Atlanta at home...

That's a pretty tough row to hoe - to go 11-3.

I suspect we beat Washington, but if we don't, our season is in big trouble - which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing if it gets rid of Capers, and shakes some sense into MM concerning the running game.

Well, we can't lose EVERY game against a decent opponent. I disagree with you on where this team is at and I can see them having a couple nice streaks on the year.

Losing to the Redskins is a reach... for some reason I was thinking it was Seattle, but that was a temporary brain fart. The point remains -- we'll struggle early and the forums will be a shitstorm. That I do expect.

For the record: I'm not a Capers fan and would be fine replacing him as long as we don't go to a 4-3. Base personnel isn't the problem... Capers just isn't very smart IMO .

[wist43]

I have us in the 10-6 to 11-5 range... and I think we beat the Redskins; but don't think that is a given.

We went 5-1 in the division last year... 4-2 is more likely this year.

SF is a penciled in L, 4-2 in the division has us at 3 losses right there. Don't like our chances in NY - that's 4 losses... and we're always good for an Indy Colts, 2nd half hairball every year...

10-6 sounds about right - and an early playoff exit sounds about right.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

If not for the OL, I'd say we're a legit SB contender - however, and it is a huge HOWEVER - Capers kills our chances.

We have enough talent on defense to contend, but I see Capers as being such a disaster that any chance we have is right out the window.

JH says he really likes the DL - well, this is supposed to be a 3-4 defense, with strength at the LB position. We suck at LB. We're pretty good on the DL - yet Capers plays a 2-4?? What's wrong with that picture??

If the strength of our defense is on the DL - what good are most of them going to do on the bench when it's "Moneyball" time??

[wist43]

The Smith boys have to be licking their chops about going against Bak. Bak has looked better than a rookie 4th round pick, but he's still a rookie. Mulligan will probably be on his side to help block, i guess.

MM isn't in the habit of giving OT's help... he'll let Bacteria flail around over there for the 1st half, and only after Rodgers is nearly decapitated will he do something about it at halftime.

Bacteria was awful against Seattle... my guess is Rodgers will be looking over his shoulder and bolting the pocket b/4 we get to the 2nd quarter.

[pittstang5]

MM isn't in the habit of giving OT's help... he'll let Bacteria flail around over there for the 1st half, and only after Rodgers is nearly decapitated will he do something about it at halftime.

Bacteria was awful against Seattle... my guess is Rodgers will be looking over his shoulder and bolting the pocket b/4 we get to the 2nd quarter.

Sadly, I think you are right.

[denverYooper]

What a bunch of pussies.

[pbmax]

MM isn't in the habit of giving OT's help... he'll let Bacteria flail around over there for the 1st half, and only after Rodgers is nearly decapitated will he do something about it at halftime.

Bacteria was awful against Seattle... my guess is Rodgers will be looking over his shoulder and bolting the pocket b/4 we get to the 2nd quarter.

McCarthy has come out chipping with backs and TEs before, but he clearly prefers not to. He isn't going to do it if he thinks the O line should be able to handle the DEs alone and he is not in the habit of junking game plans before halftime. He also expects them to adjust to him and not the other way around. Remember the adjustments that came in 2009 in the Cowboy game, long after most had given up hope of the situation improving.

That said, against the best rush teams (San Fran and Seattle, I would not be surprised to see early help). He helped the OTs in the playoff game though they are more dangerous stunting with Justin. He clearly thinks you can pass on the Seattle secondary and I don't think he would let a question of chipping DEs get in his way since he clearly believes they can be roasted in the air.

[bobblehead]

Lacy and Rodgers will make you a believe in the playmaker theory, bobble. Our DL looks stout as hell. Now we just need to get a little healthy and we have the makings of a SB team.

I still hope you are right...and I hope people don't misunderstand me. This is still a good football team, but not what I had hoped for, and it will be hard to win a superbowl.

The good news is that I believe Seattle and Atlanta are over rated as well, and Kapernick will suffer a bit with film on him...but we play in a division with tough DL's. Teams that tackle well (minn and chicago) and a team that hits the QB well (detroit).

My best guess is that this OL struggles bad. Teams beat them with 4 and ARod has trouble finding open guys. I think we struggle to run even against six in the box.

[bobblehead]

As for the players, the only one I've looked at individually much has been Bacteria. He looked okay against Ari and the Rams, not great, but okay - he looked completely overmatched against the Seahawks.

The OL is a mess - but that all goes back to TT and MM's philosophy of drafting "versatile", mobile OL that can play all 5 positions, but can't run block to save their lives - or at least run block in terms of getting movement one-on-one.

MM's run game is based on movement - no power allowed. All of the OL are underpowered by NFL standards - and it is Lacy who will be in for a rude awakening when he realizes that getting hit 2 yds behind the LOS makes it pretty tough to be busting off those 19 yd runs he was so used to at Alabama.

-------------------------------------------------------

By the by, welcome to reality Bobble... on this website?? it can get lonely over here :)

I still disagree with you on a lot of things though. I think the OL problems are due to injury primarily. When I though Bulaga would be healthy and Sherrod might play before camp was over I was optimistic. I also think that without the high powered offense, you may see a different philosophy from capers. Furthermore, I blame MM for the weak philosophy on Defense as it was the same before capers was here. I think Capers calls the gameplan that MM wants.

[wist43]

McCarthy has come out chipping with backs and TEs before, but he clearly prefers not to. He isn't going to do it if he thinks the O line should be able to handle the DEs alone and he is not in the habit of junking game plans before halftime. He also expects them to adjust to him and not the other way around. Remember the adjustments that came in 2009 in the Cowboy game, long after most had given up hope of the situation improving.

That said, against the best rush teams (San Fran and Seattle, I would not be surprised to see early help). He helped the OTs in the playoff game though they are more dangerous stunting with Justin. He clearly thinks you can pass on the Seattle secondary and I don't think he would let a question of chipping DEs get in his way since he clearly believes they can be roasted in the air.

Yeah, McCarthy gets around to giving OT's help when the mood strikes him, lol... eventually, after giving it about 30 minutes worth of thought :)

He's always too slow to adjust... if something isn't working - and it's something that I suspected wouldn't work from the beginning - from my captains chair in my living room - surely MM should have been on the lookout for trouble in paradise, no??

How do you not adjust in the Seattle game last year after the first 5 sacks in the 1st half?? It took him 3 more sacks, and getting into the locker room before it dawned on him - 'is something wrong with this picture'?? :cnf:

I know if I'm Rodgers, I'm in the shotgun, and I'm already running for my life before the ball gets back to me - I'm in MM's ear - "get that turd at LT/RT some help - and get it now"!!!

[wist43]

I still disagree with you on a lot of things though. I think the OL problems are due to injury primarily. When I though Bulaga would be healthy and Sherrod might play before camp was over I was optimistic. I also think that without the high powered offense, you may see a different philosophy from capers. Furthermore, I blame MM for the weak philosophy on Defense as it was the same before capers was here. I think Capers calls the gameplan that MM wants.

It's my understanding that Capers has complete autonomy on defense - Max?? That is correct is it not??

[George Cumby]

What a bunch of pussies.

Fuckin' A.

I'm about ready to buy a gross of Vagisil for you ladies ( Not Pugs and MJ, though, they actually have a pair....... Each.)

[denverYooper]

If injuries don't take anyone irreplaceable, the team will be a shade better this year because Lacy and Perry are clear upgrades at position and the DL is coming into its own.

The D is poised to be very good soon because the core players have all grown together and slowly improved. It seems like they are going to be ready to take the next step within the next year or 2. I don't know if it will happen this season, and there's a good chance Capers won't be the guy to take them to the next level, but they've got some good players and have (IMO) built that thing the right way.

[wist43]

If injuries don't take anyone irreplaceable, the team will be a shade better this year because Lacy and Perry are clear upgrades at position and the DL is coming into its own.

The D is poised to be very good soon because the core players have all grown together and slowly improved. It seems like they are going to be ready to take the next step within the next year or 2. I don't know if it will happen this season, and there's a good chance Capers won't be the guy to take them to the next level, but they've got some good players and have (IMO) built that thing the right way.

Again, in prophesying greatness for the DL - you mean when both of them are on the field at the same time, right?? ;)

See the problem there??

[Pugger]

Crazy enough, Mike Tanier lists EDS as a possible breakout player in this column (http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/58388844/).

The FO guys usually do pretty good work, but honestly, this one has me scratching my head. Was EDS just that much better than Saturday last year that he looked like a gem?

This prob.

[Pugger]

Fuckin' A.

I'm about ready to buy a gross of Vagisil for you ladies ( Not Pugs and MJ, though, they actually have a pair....... Each.)

Thanks! :lol:

I could understand the hand wringing if we were losing like this in the regular season and our starters were in there all game long. Most of the time I've liked what I've seen when the 1's are in there this summer. Bak his gonna need assistance against the likes of the 49ers but I'd wager Bulaga would too.

[Pugger]

Again, in prophesying greatness for the DL - you mean when both of them are on the field at the same time, right?? ;)

See the problem there??

You should go back and read his last sentence.

[denverYooper]

You should go back and read his last sentence.

This.

[Tony Oday]

We really should have five dlinemen on the field in a second and 18.

[pbmax]

It's my understanding that Capers has complete autonomy on defense - Max?? That is correct is it not??

I believe he makes all the calls during the game. But he doesn't have final authority on the D roster. That is Thompson consulting with McCarthy. As for starters and playing time, your guess is as good as mine though the position coaches make the calls during the game to rotate and substitute.

[mraynrand]

Bak his gonna need assistance against the likes of the 49ers but I'd wager Bulaga would too.

The biggest loss with Bulaga getting injured is depth. But Bulaga looked like garbage a couple of times last year, especially at Seattle. But it doesn't help and OT when the defense has absolutely no reason to expect a run. McCarthy changed in the second half of that game last year, and looks to change the balance this year. Should help the line.

[denverYooper]

The Niners look like the team with their shit together right now, but so did the 2011 Packers until they ran into the Kansas City buzzsaw.

Just sayin'.

[denverYooper]

We really should have five dlinemen on the field in a second and 18.

That's probably why they gave Jolly a shot. The guy's got some coverage skills.

[pbmax]

That's probably why they gave Jolly a shot. The guy's got some coverage skills.

Jolly and Neal will be the OLBs in the new 5-1-5 nickel.

[denverYooper]

Jolly and Neal will be the OLBs in the new 5-1-5 nickel.

I hear they're calling it the "Crabby Wist" alignment.

[packer4life]

Why not the 10-0-1 alignment. A, B, C, D, and E gaps need filling. If you don't, it's unsound! Gotta be sound with those gaps

[ThunderDan]

The biggest loss with Bulaga getting injured is depth. But Bulaga looked like garbage a couple of times last year, especially at Seattle. But it doesn't help and OT when the defense has absolutely no reason to expect a run. McCarthy changed in the second half of that game last year, and looks to change the balance this year. Should help the line.

The whole Packer O looked like shit in the first half. The Packer O in the second half made SEA look like little bitches. The only time SEA stopped us in the second half was when we ran the ball 3 times under the 2 minute warning to make SEA use all of their time outs. Otherwise we had 3 drives, 217 yards, 12 points (2 FGs and 1 TD with a missed 2 pointer) and 17:31 of possession.

Once again our horrible D that gets run over every week by power teams held SEA to 257 yards for the game and 7 "real" points.

[Pugger]

And we held that powerhouse Seachicken offense to 3 points even with our backups in there last weekend.

[pbmax]

Once again our horrible D that gets run over every week by power teams held SEA to 257 yards for the game and 7 "real" points.

Fluke. Capers is a liability.

[denverYooper]

Fluke. Capers is a liability.

Seattle's offense wasn't rolling yet. It was early in the year.

[pbmax]

Seattle's offense wasn't rolling yet. It was early in the year.

Seattle beat San Fran beat Packers (twice). By transitive property:

Seattle > San Fran > Green Bay

All because of Capers and not McCarthy making poor decision about attacking secondary via pass in first half. Capers, Capers, Capers.

If Gregg Williams coached the D, McCarthy would not have dared to pass.

[run pMc]

Seattle beat San Fran beat Packers (twice). By transitive property:

Seattle > San Fran > Green Bay

Arizona beat Seattle last year, so that means the Cardinals pwn everyone.

Also: asdfhgaghvhsdfjasdkl;wetuiogv znxcj

Fire SlocumCampenCapers!

[Upnorth]

One thing I do tend to agree with Wist on is gaps going uncovered. WHy they go uncovered is mostly due to two possible reasons,
1) Unsound plays
2) Missed assignments by players.

I don't think it is only one of the two, but rather a combination. I have see Capers trot out his 2-4 and leave what looks to me like a big hole. I have also seen players screw the pooch and even turn their back on the ball. If we have gap discipline I think with our DL, OLB and secondary we will be a top 6ish defence for points allowed.

[wist43]

You should go back and read his last sentence.

If you're saying that the DL is a great strength - then say it's a good idea to sit those DL on passing downs - kinda negates the strength argument doesn't it??

I'd imagine you guys - all of you, lol... really, really suck at chess, huh??

[wist43]

Seattle beat San Fran beat Packers (twice). By transitive property:

Seattle > San Fran > Green Bay

All because of Capers and not McCarthy making poor decision about attacking secondary via pass in first half. Capers, Capers, Capers.

If Gregg Williams coached the D, McCarthy would not have dared to pass.

That's it max - I'm ordering a drug test for you :smk:

[wist43]

You guys are getting the defense you want... and you're perfectly okay with futility records being set.

I don't get it - but then again I don't understand why most of you want to bankrupt the country either... I'm a minority living in an upside down world.

Here's some fun times for you guys to masterbate to -


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hS3U5fYZGN8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTpOyKR8IJA

As AP says - "they can't stop us man"!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZPir8ck-V4

1:17 mark?? Hmmm - I guess we don't need to cover the middle of the field, huh?? lol

You guys are okay with this kind of stuff... I understand that. I'm not okay with it.

[wist43]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Good stuff huh?? ;)

[denverYooper]

Put that foam finger away now, wist.

[Pugger]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Good stuff huh?? ;)

Yeah, if you think the 2013 defense will be identical to the 2012 D.

[Upnorth]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Good stuff huh?? ;)

In the third one I believe Walden is out of position instead doulbling up the outside man who was covered by Shields (i think). SO walden was out of position again. IN the first one, wow our oline got beat in the middle (Saterday) and to the right a lot (Buluga).
I think without Walden we have upgraded in the middle, and hopefully Capers will adjust for run after over reacting to pass last year. Regarding the Oline, I dont think we are better, and will probably be worse.

[denverYooper]

Yeah, if you think the 2013 defense will be identical to the 2012 D.

Wist has never been very good at thinking outside of the box.

[Bossman641]

1:17 mark?? Hmmm - I guess we don't need to cover the middle of the field, huh?? lol

You guys are okay with this kind of stuff... I understand that. I'm not okay with it.

Isn't that Woodson vacating the middle at the 1:17 mark? Sure looks like zone coverage and he follows Davis out of his area. Weren't you the one arguing earlier this offseason how he was irreplaceable and how the only reason he was let go was because he had the gall to stand up to Capers?

[wist43]

Isn't that Woodson vacating the middle at the 1:17 mark? Sure looks like zone coverage and he follows Davis out of his area. Weren't you the one arguing earlier this offseason how he was irreplaceable and how the only reason he was let go was because he had the gall to stand up to Capers?

Yeah, it was Woodson - dont know what his responsibility was... he probably didn't know what his responsibility was.

I think Capers explains what their individual responsibilities were on Tuesday film study.

I give all the players a pass to whatever extent - it's obvious when someone misses a tackle, or takes a bad angle, but the missed assignments, blown coverages, huge holes to run thru, broken pockets, on and on... it's next to impossible to evaluate the players, when the DC has them in poor pre-snap alignments combined with complex assignments that the young guys are too often busting.

No, I don't hold the players accountable - I hold Capers accountable.

If the scheme and alignments were sound - then I'd look to the next likely cause, and I'd look at the players; but the defense is so "uncoordinated", that I look at the "coordinator" first.

[pbmax]

Funny, I don't see the Seahawks highlights in there. Must not fit the narrative. :D

[Harlan Huckleby]

Put that foam finger away now, wist.

ya, that one is so played.

http://siextramustard.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/miley-cyrus.jpg

[wist43]

Wist has never been very good at thinking outside of the box.

My father was a sociopath, a sick motherfucker... should have killed him long before he died of natural causes - but one thing he was very good at was chess. Very creative, offensive minded player.

He taught me how to play at a young age, and my game developed in response to his... hence I became a "defense first" player. Strategy games are easy... where it gets more difficult is when you have to consider your opponent. You're not playing the game, you're playing your opponent.

My father would do very unsound things, and get away with it b/c he was a superior player to most of his opponents - but once I matured, he could no longer get away it. We eventually equalled out, and our last couple hundred games were probably 50/50, with a good percentage of them ending in draws.

You can get away with doing unsound things if you are superior to your opponent; but you can't assume that - can you?? or you shouldn't assume that. Capers does things that opposing OC's worth their salt are able to too easily exploit.

Love Sun Tzu - ignore those principles at your own peril - in everything you do. Sun Tzu was the very definition of "thinking outside the box".

[wist43]

Funny, I don't see the Seahawks highlights in there. Must not fit the narrative. :D

I don't know why you defend the mess Max - you're an excuse maker.

[mraynrand]

You can get away with doing unsound things if you are superior to your opponent;

The fact that the Packers drafted all defense last year, and drafted defense with #1 this year, lost Woodson and Collins - a sure fire HOF/Defensive player of the year (who was DONE after 2010) and a certain multi-year probowler in Collins I think pretty effectively demonstrates that NO ONE in the Packer organization thought that the Packers defense was superior to anyone. In your Chess analogy, the Packers of 2011 after Collins goes out are equal to you at age ten getting your ass kicked by your piece of shit sociopath father. Now they are starting to get better/mature.

[pbmax]

I don't know why you defend the mess Max - you're an excuse maker.

Not at all. Its an issue that has been developing since 2010 and has some roots in 2009 (pass defense) and even 2007 (pass rush without KGB and Williams, run D with KGB). I am plenty concerned about the deterioration and the farther the Packers get from 2010 without popping back into the Top 10 or 15 defensively makes me think its an institutional problem.

But we disagree on the scope and causes of the problem. Its unclear what will happen with the offense in 2013, but average defense puts the Packers in the NFC Championship Game in each of the last 3 years. That is the scope of the problem.

The cause of the problem is far more mysterious. If the Packers can handle a Seahawks offense, then the LOS isn't the tire fire everyone believes it to be. San Fran was assignment and speed. Walden and Woodson might simply not have been up to the task from a talent standpoint but there are weakpoints of any defense. And the Giants have beaten the Packers will big plays on offense.

Now I used to think the hole on D was personnel related but that has largely be rectified I believe in the last 2 drafts. What remains are assignments and game plans for the players you have.

I agree with you that Capers has picked the wrong game plan for opponents at times. San Fran playoff game was a surprise (CK read option). Giants playoff game in Lambeau was no such thing. But that happens to everyone (ask Atlanta about their gameplan versus Rodgers in the first half of the playoff game in the Super Bowl year).

The problem I have is that while you can say the offense never puts it into a higher gear for comebacks, they do make definitive adjustments and execute differently from half to half. My concern on the defensive side is that once a game goes bad, it does not seem to get better to give the O a chance.

Is this Capers fault? Ultimately yes, and should the D fail again, he will be the one sacrificed. But its more than 2-4 or 3 man pass rush. Why are there still problems with execution and with recovering from a bad start? I think the Defense suffers from odd parts in places, where talent doesn't match scheme (Raji) or the secondary, where talent does not play all coverages well. Capers? Maybe, but I tend to think its the assistants and the development of players to execute the system.

What I don't buy is that Thompson and McCarthy don't value toughness or size or line play nor do I buy that Capers has lost his fastball or is fundamentally unsound. Same way I don't buy that Bob Sanders failed simply because his defense was static.

And its not like he isn't trying. The Game Day thread for the playoff game was screaming for a spy and Capers deployed on to no effect at times in that game and he gave a pretty thorough account of the adjustments they went to in that game. But there is a mismatch between the three guys in charge that keeps putting out a defense that can come unglued.

P.S. Thompson has some culpability here, more than likely. Aside from injuries, a player like Sam Shields who is pressed into service after virtually no training needs time to develop. Its probably not a coincidence that he is only now learning to play off coverages and tackle. And they way the personnel department is setup, he had to be the cornerback on the field, there were no trained but limited vets to come in and help.

[mraynrand]

P.S. Thompson has some culpability here, more than likely. Aside from injuries, a player like Sam Shields who is pressed into service after virtually no training needs time to develop. Its probably not a coincidence that he is only now learning to play off coverages and tackle. And they way the personnel department is setup, he had to be the cornerback on the field, there were no trained but limited vets to come in and help.

good post, but here at the end is Sam Shields as an example of the problem. It's feast and famine. Guy played lights out against Chicago in the single most significant playoff game in Packer history, gets a pick six against the 49ers, but his limitations in playing zone put the defense at risk. I guess the lesson is that when you do go with youth and draft and rookie free agency, you must have that veteran balance. Woodson got old and Collins got injured. Perhaps the mistake was not addressing the loss of those two in the 2011 - 2012 offseason by bringing in a veteran - maybe some here who have the players available still in their heads can retroactively look to see who the Packers could have picked up and how it might have worked out and how it would have affected ability to sign other players, etc.

Perhaps what's going on is pretty normal for this era of the NFL we're in. The Packers won a Superbowl and are reseting the defense to win another. Hopefully that will gel before they have to reset the skill positions on offense.

[RashanGary]

My father was a sociopath, a sick motherfucker... should have killed him long before he died of natural causes - but one thing he was very good at was chess. Very creative, offensive minded player.

He taught me how to play at a young age, and my game developed in response to his... hence I became a "defense first" player. Strategy games are easy... where it gets more difficult is when you have to consider your opponent. You're not playing the game, you're playing your opponent.

My father would do very unsound things, and get away with it b/c he was a superior player to most of his opponents - but once I matured, he could no longer get away it. We eventually equalled out, and our last couple hundred games were probably 50/50, with a good percentage of them ending in draws.

You can get away with doing unsound things if you are superior to your opponent; but you can't assume that - can you?? or you shouldn't assume that. Capers does things that opposing OC's worth their salt are able to too easily exploit.

Love Sun Tzu - ignore those principles at your own peril - in everything you do. Sun Tzu was the very definition of "thinking outside the box".

I'm really sorry you had to deal with that. Fuck, man. My brother is a sociopath, and yes, if helping the world is a good reason to kill somebody, he should be killed.

You're an awesome guy, wist. Knowing you had to deal with that makes me like you that much more. Having to grow up with a sociopath, they love to tell you your emotions aren't real, and people don't really feel this or that. For me, learning to feel what I feel, believe it, and trust other people feel that way too has been really hard, but really awesome.

Sometimes, I share things other people don't. But know what, when I was told every day you don't feel this or that, the freedom to just say how I feel and not feel ashamed or weak for it makes me a hell of a lot stronger, and a hell of a better guy to be around for everyone in my life.

[RashanGary]

Wist, and I get the impression that fucker tormented you with your fears. It's almost like you NEED to be heard really badly when you see something is wrong because somebody (a sociopath father, maybe) never let the healthy worries and fears be tended to (like don't jump off a bridge because it might kill you.)

You worries on the Packers are completely legit, man. I wanna be optimistic and hope for the best, but I completely understand the things you see as weaknesses or concerns.

[wist43]

Wist, and I get the impression that fucker tormented you with your fears. It's almost like you NEED to be heard really badly when you see something is wrong because somebody (a sociopath father, maybe) never let the healthy worries and fears be tended to (like don't jump off a bridge because it might kill you.)

You worries on the Packers are completely legit, man. I wanna be optimistic and hope for the best, but I completely understand the things you see as weaknesses or concerns.

lol... nah, having a father like that just forces ya to grow up quick - I was on my own at 16, and was more of a parent to him by the time I was 18 than he ever was to me. It is what it is... He did teach me strategy at a very young age though - and it is true that there is a fine line between genius and madness. In a lot of ways my father was a genius - no one ever doubted his intelligence; but he used it for evil - he really was an evil human being. Enough about that idiot though...

As for strategy - I just see the field and formations different than most I guess. There are a lot of DC's out there that view playing defense the way I do... Dom Capers is not one of them.

I used to tape Chicago Bear games back in the 80's and study them for hours - Buddy Ryan really was a defensive genius... he just failed to adapt when the league caught up to him. Not very Sun Tzu'ish, lol...

I didn't like the 3-4 much back then b/c it was so static... most teams, including the packers ran a very predictable version of it - the Giants did more with it, but they had HOF/Pro Bowl talent all over the place - certainly makes it easier. Dick LeBeau and a few other innovators did much to diversify the 3-4 though, and it became much more of an attack defense over the years. Eventually I switched over my allegiance to the 3-4 b/c of all the versatility it offered and b/c you could, for the most part, build a 3-4 championship calibur defense more cheaply than a 4-3 in the salary cap era. I agree with Brian Bellick on that. Don't know that that's necessary true today, but 10 years ago it was.

----------------------------------------------------

Here's an analogy for you, Anderson Silva vs Chris Weidman

Silva, with all that talent... clowning, taunting - very undisciplined and unsound in what he does. He gets away with it b/c his talent has been better than everyone he's come up against.

Meet Chris Weidman - fundamentally sound fighter. Straight up tough. Act the fool at your own risk. Silva got knocked out.

What Capers does is the equivalent of what Silva did against Weidman - he doesn't do it out of arrogance, or tactically like Silva does, but he does it nonetheless... abandon the basics, and you'll eventually get knocked out - or gashed for huge chunks of yardage and big points.

Capers, and most PackerRats, think it is the players - they're wrong. What Capers is doing is unsound, and we're going to get our asses handed to us again this year by power teams. Unless, of course, Capers pulls his head out of his ass - and actually squares up his front (6).

[wist43]

Not at all. Its an issue that has been developing since 2010 and has some roots in 2009 (pass defense) and even 2007 (pass rush without KGB and Williams, run D with KGB). I am plenty concerned about the deterioration and the farther the Packers get from 2010 without popping back into the Top 10 or 15 defensively makes me think its an institutional problem.

But we disagree on the scope and causes of the problem. Its unclear what will happen with the offense in 2013, but average defense puts the Packers in the NFC Championship Game in each of the last 3 years. That is the scope of the problem.

The cause of the problem is far more mysterious. If the Packers can handle a Seahawks offense, then the LOS isn't the tire fire everyone believes it to be. San Fran was assignment and speed. Walden and Woodson might simply not have been up to the task from a talent standpoint but there are weakpoints of any defense. And the Giants have beaten the Packers will big plays on offense.

Now I used to think the hole on D was personnel related but that has largely be rectified I believe in the last 2 drafts. What remains are assignments and game plans for the players you have.

I agree with you that Capers has picked the wrong game plan for opponents at times. San Fran playoff game was a surprise (CK read option). Giants playoff game in Lambeau was no such thing. But that happens to everyone (ask Atlanta about their gameplan versus Rodgers in the first half of the playoff game in the Super Bowl year).

The problem I have is that while you can say the offense never puts it into a higher gear for comebacks, they do make definitive adjustments and execute differently from half to half. My concern on the defensive side is that once a game goes bad, it does not seem to get better to give the O a chance.

Is this Capers fault? Ultimately yes, and should the D fail again, he will be the one sacrificed. But its more than 2-4 or 3 man pass rush. Why are there still problems with execution and with recovering from a bad start? I think the Defense suffers from odd parts in places, where talent doesn't match scheme (Raji) or the secondary, where talent does not play all coverages well. Capers? Maybe, but I tend to think its the assistants and the development of players to execute the system.

What I don't buy is that Thompson and McCarthy don't value toughness or size or line play nor do I buy that Capers has lost his fastball or is fundamentally unsound. Same way I don't buy that Bob Sanders failed simply because his defense was static.

And its not like he isn't trying. The Game Day thread for the playoff game was screaming for a spy and Capers deployed on to no effect at times in that game and he gave a pretty thorough account of the adjustments they went to in that game. But there is a mismatch between the three guys in charge that keeps putting out a defense that can come unglued.

P.S. Thompson has some culpability here, more than likely. Aside from injuries, a player like Sam Shields who is pressed into service after virtually no training needs time to develop. Its probably not a coincidence that he is only now learning to play off coverages and tackle. And they way the personnel department is setup, he had to be the cornerback on the field, there were no trained but limited vets to come in and help.

I agree with most of that Max...

I will say this about the Thompson/Capers collaberation in selecting the players -

The players they have selected are not traditional 3-4 players. I think most of us agree on that... so that leaves us with having to play the "3-4" in a less than traditional way. No biggy, I'm okay with that - what does that mean though??

If a traditional 3-4 calls for most of the high-end talent to be concentrated at the LB positions - yet we have concentrated our high-end talent on the DL - Capers needs to adjust accordingly, i.e. we should be playing 3-3 and 4-2 nickel packages to take advantage of the talent we have on the DL.

Capers has not, and likely will not, do this.

By playing the 2-4 he is taking our high-end DL talent and parking it on the bench; and taking our pedestrian LB talent, sans Matthews and Perry who are rushing (a static and predictable rush), and putting them in coverage assignments.

He cares nothing about abandoning the middle of the field; he rushes the Ends up the field and gives up contain b/c everyone is in coverage with their back to the play, or too deep to step up and fill the gaps. This is unsound - there's no other way to assess it.

We all see the results - Capers says it's the players, and most PackerRats on this board accept that as gospel. I do not accept that b/c I see that what he is doing is unsound. If he doesn't make the proper adjustments this year - TT will have no choice but to fire him at the end of the year, b/c if he keeps doing what he's been doing?? We're going to keep seeing the same results - and those results have been entirely unacceptable.

[mraynrand]

If a traditional 3-4 calls for most of the high-end talent to be concentrated at the LB positions - yet we have concentrated our high-end talent on the DL - Capers needs to adjust accordingly, i.e. we should be playing 3-3 and 4-2 nickel packages to take advantage of the talent we have on the DL.

Capers has not, and likely will not, do this.

Matthews, Perry, and Hawk are first round picks. Perry is an unknown, Hawk never lived up to draft potential, and Clay is a star. Seems like a lot of talent. D-Line: Jones and Raji are first round. A couple other top round guys who haven't seen the field much due to injury. Raji is in danger of being the Hawk of the D-line. Still, I see more talent at LB. Either way, the problem is pass rush. 3-4, 4-3, 2-5, whatever - if Capres can't get pass rush from the front seven, then he needs better coverage. Seems he is splitting the baby by sending d-backs to rush (esp Woodson who could play LB, corner and pass rush - the "W" position) and or play coverage, but have to hold up longer because the pass rush is mediocre. Part of the problem is the talent drop off (loss of top flight Woodson and Collins in the same year), injuries to linemen and LBs and inexperience. I think Capers could be sound according to your definition, Wist, he just doesn't know what the pieces he has can do yet, so I bet you see a lot of experimentation. He can be alignment sound all you want, but the players have to have the talent to generate pressure and stop the run somewhat consistently. Who among the D-line and LBs do you know the full book on at this point?

[wist43]

Matthews, Perry, and Hawk are first round picks. Perry is an unknown, Hawk never lived up to draft potential, and Clay is a star. Seems like a lot of talent. D-Line: Jones and Raji are first round. A couple other top round guys who haven't seen the field much due to injury. Raji is in danger of being the Hawk of the D-line. Still, I see more talent at LB. Either way, the problem is pass rush. 3-4, 4-3, 2-5, whatever - if Capres can't get pass rush from the front seven, then he needs better coverage. Seems he is splitting the baby by sending d-backs to rush (esp Woodson who could play LB, corner and pass rush - the "W" position) and or play coverage, but have to hold up longer because the pass rush is mediocre. Part of the problem is the talent drop off (loss of top flight Woodson and Collins in the same year), injuries to linemen and LBs and inexperience. I think Capers could be sound according to your definition, Wist, he just doesn't know what the pieces he has can do yet, so I bet you see a lot of experimentation. He can be alignment sound all you want, but the players have to have the talent to generate pressure and stop the run somewhat consistently. Who among the D-line and LBs do you know the full book on at this point?

We have 1 LB (Matthews), 1 tweener (Perry), and a revolving door of prospects at LB - that's it.

You say Raji is in danger of becoming "the Hawk" of the DL - but that is b/c of how Capers is misusing him, and that is the point.

Now you add Jones to the mix, who is also not a natural fit in a 3-4; Daniels - not a fit; Neal - sort of a fit for a 3-4 DE, but never worked out in that role...

All those guys together though... Raji, Neal, Daniels, Jones - and throw Perry in there; and mix in Pickett, Wilson (who has amazingly come around to be a decent player now), and now Jolly... and that group is both much stronger as a unit than the LB's, and much better suited to hybrid 30/40 alignments.

Use them to their strengths, and we could have something - misuse them to what Capers has been doing, and we have a mess.

Perry never wanted to play LB to begin with - let him put his hand on the ground on passing downs, and roam B. Jones (hopefully someone better - soon) behind him; rotate personnel inside, and keep Matthews coming off the edge and on stunts.

I've explained why what Capers is doing is unsound - what I've just described accounts for maintaining gap control, generating pressure, and policing the short middle. All areas of responsibility Capers habitually ignores or doesn't account for with sufficient concern.

We generated pass rush last year - we had 47 sacks (I think); but how many times did we get a sack, or penalty that pushed the offense back to 2nd and 18, 3rd and 17, and then Capers turns around and goes soft with a 3 man rush, or his patented 2-4... and the offense easily busts it and picks up the 1st down??

It happened all too often - Capers has a nasty habit of not pressing his advantage.

[mraynrand]

We have 1 LB (Matthews), 1 tweener (Perry), and a revolving door of prospects at LB - that's it.

You say Raji is in danger of becoming "the Hawk" of the DL - but that is b/c of how Capers is misusing him, and that is the point.

Now you add Jones to the mix, who is also not a natural fit in a 3-4; Daniels - not a fit; Neal - sort of a fit for a 3-4 DE, but never worked out in that role...

All those guys together though... Raji, Neal, Daniels, Jones - and throw Perry in there; and mix in Pickett, Wilson (who has amazingly come around to be a decent player now), and now Jolly... and that group is both much stronger as a unit than the LB's, and much better suited to hybrid 30/40 alignments.

Use them to their strengths, and we could have something - misuse them to what Capers has been doing, and we have a mess.

We generated pass rush last year - we had 47 sacks (I think)

Of the 46 sacks, only 11.5 came from the d-line, 5.5 from the secondary. "Use them to their strengths, and we could have something " Sure, if by using them to their strengths means they can generate pressure and stop the run. I just don't see how you can know whether Perry is being misused when he's hardly played (2 sacks in 6 games, one called back by penalty), certainly not Jones, and nearly the same can be said of Daniels and Neal. I hope Capers uses them to their strengths and that includes pass rush and ability to follow assignments. Maybe Capers won't feel like he has to play coverage on 2nd or 3rd and long if he can get a rush from a three man line. Will be interesting to observe.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Of the 46 sacks, only 11.5 came from the d-line, 5.5 from the secondary. "Use them to their strengths, and we could have something " Sure, if by using them to their strengths means they can generate pressure and stop the run. I just don't see how you can know whether Perry is being misused when he's hardly played (2 sacks in 6 games, one called back by penalty), certainly not Jones, and nearly the same can be said of Daniels and Neal. I hope Capers uses them to their strengths and that includes pass rush and ability to follow assignments. Maybe Capers won't feel like he has to play coverage on 2nd or 3rd and long if he can get a rush from a three man line. Will be interesting to observe.

This defense isn't built for DL to get sacks. They come from the LBs. Pittsburgh's DL had 11 sacks last year. Keisel had 4.5 sacks last year. Nobody else had more than 3. The sacks will come from a variety of positions, but mostly it falls to the OLBs. Perry needs to step up. It would be nice if they had 2-3 DL in the 4-6 sack range though.

[pbmax]

The dilemma is essentially this: in the standard 3-4 (think 2009), Packer personnel did not get enough pass rush even with Matthews out there with Jenkins. Now some of that is a 3 man rush on 3rd and forever, and the Packers inability to play zone for long enough to force the short throw and tackle the guy before he runs for a first. If I have seen the Steelers do this once, I have seen it one thousand times. But great run defense is useless if you can't stop people throwing on 3rd down.

Now you could go 3-3 and play nickel to get more coverage, but those 3 lineman have only one true pass rusher among them (after Jenkins leaves its Raji). The nickel give you a CB to stick on the 3rd WR, but no additional coverage options because you are down a LB. You can zone drop a lineman but that's it. But you have not really improved the coverage that stunk in the first scenario. And unless is a zone or other type of blitz, one of your best pass rushers is in coverage.

So you go 2-4 and have all kinds of options for coverage and designated pass rushers at both OLB and D line. Best of both worlds. Unless you lose gap control and hemorrhage big runs.

One of these scenarios needs to be solved and you get a top 10 defense. Personally I like the odds of 2nd and 18 no matter how you play it.

[mraynrand]

Now you could go 3-3 and play nickel to get more coverage, but those 3 lineman have only one true pass rusher among them (after Jenkins leaves its Raji). .

that leads back to D. Jones and B. Jones. In the 3-3, if Jones cant help increase the pressure, B. Jones will get exposed by the TE, tempting Capers to go 2-4-5 or 2-3-6. Either of the latter two won't work as well as with Woodson at his peak unless Hayward can tackle like a LB and cover either a TE or WR. Asking a lot.

[wist43]

The dilemma is essentially this: in the standard 3-4 (think 2009), Packer personnel did not get enough pass rush even with Matthews out there with Jenkins. Now some of that is a 3 man rush on 3rd and forever, and the Packers inability to play zone for long enough to force the short throw and tackle the guy before he runs for a first. If I have seen the Steelers do this once, I have seen it one thousand times. But great run defense is useless if you can't stop people throwing on 3rd down.

Now you could go 3-3 and play nickel to get more coverage, but those 3 lineman have only one true pass rusher among them (after Jenkins leaves its Raji). The nickel give you a CB to stick on the 3rd WR, but no additional coverage options because you are down a LB. You can zone drop a lineman but that's it. But you have not really improved the coverage that stunk in the first scenario. And unless is a zone or other type of blitz, one of your best pass rushers is in coverage.

Again, our LB's suck... in Capers 2-4 you only have 2 LB's who have responsibility behind the line anyway - the other two are really nothing more than smallish rush DE's. In that sense, it is a 4-2 - an undersized 4-2 with at least 2 shitty LB's on the field, while the strength of your defense is standing on the sideline watching.


So you go 2-4 and have all kinds of options for coverage and designated pass rushers at both OLB and D line. Best of both worlds. Unless you lose gap control and hemorrhage big runs.

We certainly don't have the best of any world right now, b/c when Capers goes to the 2-4 he isn't generating much pressure, the Ends (Matthews and whoever) are flying up the field and if their initial speed rush doesn't get home, we're not getting enough push inside to flush the QB to them, and if we do get enough push to flush the QB, no one is in position to corral the QB or prevent him for shaking loose for big yards on the scramble.

And heaven forbid the offense actually runs the ball!!! We know what happens then in Capers vaunted 2-4.


One of these scenarios needs to be solved and you get a top 10 defense. Personally I like the odds of 2nd and 18 no matter how you play it.

Capers usually backs off - and is willing to give yds underneath... hell, he's willing to give yds everywhere. A long down-distance situation is Capers big chance to go and change his Depends. He comes back to the booth and asks, "what happened"??

----------------------------------------------------------------

Capers is great at dialing up pressure - he really is; but, and it is a huge BUT, his penchant for playing smaller than the situation calls for, his penchant for being passive and static when he is not dialing up pressure, and his lack of coordination between the front and back end are absolutely killing us.

We are getting gashed with huge gains. I know they don't keep a stat on it, but I'm sure we have more busted coverages than any other defense in the league the last 2 years - and when your DC treats run defense like it is little more than an annoyance - you're going to have huge problems. Well guess what?? We have huge problems on defense.

The SF game will tell us very quickly if Capers has actually made adjustments. Yes it's only preseason, but you practice what you are going to run to some extent in the preseason, and we have seen nothing but the same ol', same 'ol from Dom.

He really does seem to think what he is doing is sound - and that it is the players not performing... I completely disagree with that. He's passing the buck and absolving himself - that's not leadership; that's not being self-critical and scouting yourself to improve.

[wist43]

As I pointed out in the other post...

The DL is a much stronger group than the LB's - we should be taking advantage of that.

Raji, Daniels, D. Jones, Neal - and throw Perry in there as a tweener, are all pass rushers - Jolly, Wilson, and Pickett are all nice gap control, run defenders.

At LB we have 1 player - Matthews; and a bunch of junk (Perry being a tweener you could include in either catagory).

Which set of personnel do you want on the field wreaking havoc at the LOS?? Forget coverage at the outset - which personnel group do you want on the field?? You're good, to very good defensive linemen, or your shitty linebackers??

I think the answer, and the solution are obvious and simple.

[mraynrand]

As I pointed out in the other post...

The DL is a much stronger group than the LB's - we should be taking advantage of that.

Raji, Daniels, D. Jones, Neal - and throw Perry in there as a tweener, are all pass rushers - Jolly, Wilson, and Pickett are all nice gap control, run defenders.

At LB we have 1 player - Matthews; and a bunch of junk (Perry being a tweener you could include in either catagory).

Which set of personnel do you want on the field wreaking havoc at the LOS?? Forget coverage at the outset - which personnel group do you want on the field?? You're good, to very good defensive linemen, or your shitty linebackers??

I think the answer, and the solution are obvious and simple.

I still don't understand how you can rank the two, knowing at this point little to nothing about D.Jones, Perry, and somewhat Neal and Daniels. If Perry plays like a pro bowler at LB and Jones, Perry and Neal turn out average (both pass rush and run defense), then the LBs are clearly the stronger group, even with the weaknesses of Hawk and Jones. B. Jones is even a reasonable question mark, as he's only been at ILB for a short time. Barring injuries, I think all these questions of talent will come out this year, and despite your hatred, I suspect Capers will adjust accordingly. If D.Jones, Perry, and Neal (and Perry with a hand onthe ground) are better than B. Jones and Perry standing up as LBs, I bet he shifts to more D-linemen.

[Upnorth]

I still don't understand how you can rank the two, knowing at this point little to nothing about D.Jones, Perry, and somewhat Neal and Daniels. If Perry plays like a pro bowler at LB and Jones, Perry and Neal turn out average (both pass rush and run defense), then the LBs are clearly the stronger group, even with the weaknesses of Hawk and Jones. B. Jones is even a reasonable question mark, as he's only been at ILB for a short time. Barring injuries, I think all these questions of talent will come out this year, and despite your hatred, I suspect Capers will adjust accordingly. If D.Jones, Perry, and Neal (and Perry with a hand onthe ground) are better than B. Jones and Perry standing up as LBs, I bet he shifts to more D-linemen.

Not to nitpick but i don't think Hawk is a weakness, the man has played for 9 seasons now and is consistent. DOes he play like the 5th overall pick, hell no. But he is valuable and if he was released would be starter on most teams in the league. i have complained of him in the past especially when the player he tackles gets an extra 2ish yards after contact, but they are tackeled once he gets them. If jones playes 90% as well as Hawk im a happy man.

[mraynrand]

Not to nitpick but i don't think Hawk is a weakness, the man has played for 9 seasons now and is consistent. DOes he play like the 5th overall pick, hell no. But he is valuable and if he was released would be starter on most teams in the league. i have complained of him in the past especially when the player he tackles gets an extra 2ish yards after contact, but they are tackeled once he gets them. If jones playes 90% as well as Hawk im a happy man.

I think Wist thinks he's JAG. I think Hawk is reasonably solid but has weaknesses. I am concerned with both B.Jones and Hawk in coverage - both TEs and RBs.

[wist43]

Yeah, Hawk is a JAG and I wanted him replaced this offseason. I also wanted a 2-gap DL out of the draft (Brandon Williams), but we ended up with D. Jones.

So, since that is the direction TT went - Capers has to adjust his defense to take adavantage of the types of players he has.

All of our DL have shown skills - Hawk has shown he is very pedestrian; B. Jones the same thing. We're stuck with those guys, and since they just paid B. Jones, we're stuck with him for a while... that said, I'm okay with Jones on the field in passing situations as long as Capers is doing something useful up front.

As it is - we're not controlling gaps, we're not get pressure out of base pass rush looks, and we're not covering... so something's got to change, does it not?? I would submit that populating your on-field lineup with pedestrian players is likely to produce pedestrian results - at best.

In our case, the results have been disasterous at times - yet Capers keeps pointing his finger at the players?? What's wrong with that picture??

[mraynrand]

Yeah, Hawk is a JAG and I wanted him replaced this offseason. I also wanted a 2-gap DL out of the draft (Brandon Williams), but we ended up with D. Jones.

I thought perhaps they'd address two-gap DT in free agency. Risky to go in with just Pickett as a true NT. They are depending on whichever rookie DT they keep, but I suspect that's an insurance policy, and Boyd or Miller will remain inactive until Pickett can't go.
B. Williams:
"Through three preseason games, Williams has recorded 10 tackles with seven solo tackles and one sack." (In William's sack of Cam he was unblocked, untouched)
Packers could have picked Williams at the expense of either Bacteria or tretter and Franklin. Think of how bad things would look without Bacteria right now. who knows what a healthy Tretter would have done? Always gambles, uncertainty in the draft.




All of our DL have shown skills As it is - we're not controlling gaps, we're not get pressure out of base pass rush looks, and we're not covering... so something's got to change, does it not?? I would submit that populating your on-field lineup with pedestrian players is likely to produce pedestrian results - at best. The difference is one player most of the time and as you say, Perry is a DE, so how can it be that the players you want on the field, when they are on the field aren't getting it done. I suppose you will say they are specifically being assigned to the incorrect gaps and assignments. Could it be that they aren't succeeding, as in the long TD run against Seattle? (Oh wait, that was backups who blew their assignments - so that's again Capers fault because the alignment was unsound, so that if three guys blew their assignments and/or got beat, there should have been extra backups designed into the scheme; you have to forgive me, sometimes I forget your clear, consistent and salient points)

[/QUOTE] Capers keeps pointing his finger at the players?? What's wrong with that picture??[/QUOTE]

When has Capers blamed the players?

[RashanGary]

As I pointed out in the other post...

The DL is a much stronger group than the LB's - we should be taking advantage of that.

Raji, Daniels, D. Jones, Neal - and throw Perry in there as a tweener, are all pass rushers - Jolly, Wilson, and Pickett are all nice gap control, run defenders.

At LB we have 1 player - Matthews; and a bunch of junk (Perry being a tweener you could include in either catagory).

Which set of personnel do you want on the field wreaking havoc at the LOS?? Forget coverage at the outset - which personnel group do you want on the field?? You're good, to very good defensive linemen, or your shitty linebackers??

I think the answer, and the solution are obvious and simple.

Wist, I think you're right. We have more DL this year, and some of them are athletic and can move in space (Jones/Neal.) It will be interesting to see if Capers adapts to his new group or if his new group is as good as early indications suggest.

[pbmax]

I actually am looking forward to Mr. Jones in coverage. I think he is a better athlete than almost any other backer except Matthews (I hope Justin, Patler or someone else can find combine numbers to back me up). So dime LB I am less worried about than previous years.

Getting pass rush out of four players would make the 2-4 or any alignment much more stout against the pass and be less susceptible to a big run breaking through the first wave. I think that is what Perry and Neal must provide this year (maybe Jones). I also continue to hold out hope that Raji gets some breaks with Jones and probably Jolly on board.

As for talent comparisons you can't list Perry as DL and Neal must be on both lists. You may not think they should be OLBs but they will be playing OLB. So the talent comparison looks like this:

Raji, Pickett, Wilson, Jones, Daniels, Jolly/Boyd/Miller and Neal

vs.

Matthews, Perry, Jones, Hawk, Neal

There is still more pass rush in those LBs. Jones might change that. Harvey's numbers are correct.

My main concern remains execution. Collins' mastery of the D must be replaced and everyone must stop trying to get their Woodson on and play solid. And for Pete's sake, play a decent zone coverage once in a while.

[run pMc]

I actually am looking forward to Mr. Jones in coverage. I think he is a better athlete than almost any other backer except Matthews (I hope Justin, Patler or someone else can find combine numbers to back me up). So dime LB I am less worried about than previous years.
Combine stats for some of the OLB's and ILB's here:
http://packerrats.com/showthread.php?25591-Sam-Barrington&highlight=sam+barrington

Edit: If you're too lazy to dig thru the postings, Brad Jones compares favorably to Clay and Hawk (who had a crazy combine). Jones' numbers look better than Manning or Barrington and way better than pre-hamstrung Bishop.

[pbmax]

Mr. Jones has a heck of a top gear. He is the Jordy Nelson of ILBs.

[wist43]

I'm really sorry you had to deal with that. Fuck, man. My brother is a sociopath, and yes, if helping the world is a good reason to kill somebody, he should be killed.

You're an awesome guy, wist. Knowing you had to deal with that makes me like you that much more. Having to grow up with a sociopath, they love to tell you your emotions aren't real, and people don't really feel this or that. For me, learning to feel what I feel, believe it, and trust other people feel that way too has been really hard, but really awesome.

Sometimes, I share things other people don't. But know what, when I was told every day you don't feel this or that, the freedom to just say how I feel and not feel ashamed or weak for it makes me a hell of a lot stronger, and a hell of a better guy to be around for everyone in my life.

You need to just hang tough... You're younger than I am - you grow into understanding. Everyone copes differently - I just shut out the bad shit, and kept marching forward... he threw me out when I was 16 and I lived in the back of my car for about a month and half before I saved enough money to rent a room in a run-down mobile home.

My 2 sisters weren't nearly as tough as I am, and struggled with "daddy issues" - my one sister struggled quite a bit, but eventually came out okay; unfortunately she died of cancer very young. My other sister couldn't cope at all and went insane. She needs to be committed - needed to be committed years ago actually, but my mother and her husband are both enablers and they keep her going. She is a recluse who rarely comes out of her house, and when she does, she needs to be completely drunk to pull it off.

I actually saw her for the first time in 12 years just the other day - it was weird. She was drunk, and scared the hell out of my kids, lol...

It is what it is... hang in there. I wouldn't recommend killing your brother though - they lock you up for that shit, ya know?? :)

I gave serious thought to killing my father - and half the time wish I had, the other half of the time I look at my kids and I'm glad I didn't. One thing I can tell you - if I thought there were a way I could have done it, and gotten away with it?? I definitely would have done it - some people are evil and need killing. Again, it just is what it is.

Good luck to you man.

[mraynrand]

Sure the pass rush and sacks come from the LBs mostly, but you need the linemen to collapse the pocket, create some pressure, help expose the QB to the LBs

"As for talent comparisons you can't list Perry as DL and Neal must be on both lists. You may not think they should be OLBs but they will be playing OLB. So the talent comparison looks like this:"

It seems as though Perry will line up mostly as an OLB, Neal mostly as a DL, so yes you are correct, but I don't care if they call Raji a corner or Perry a QB as long as they can carry out their assignment. As to Wist's argument: I think he is pretty clear that he believes it's all Caper's fault for putting players in bad positions, but at the same time he seems to be all over the place on whether he thinks there is any talent to work with. You have to have both of course, but my point is that it seems really premature to make a claim one way or the other since so many guys are raw or, because of injuries or changing positions/roles, haven't played much to know what they have to offer. One thing I like about blaming Capers for everything, is it simplifies my life: I had a bad lunch and I blamed Capers. Now I my mind is clear for an afternoon of work.

[wist43]

Combine stats for some of the OLB's and ILB's here:
http://packerrats.com/showthread.php?25591-Sam-Barrington&highlight=sam+barrington

Edit: If you're too lazy to dig thru the postings, Brad Jones compares favorably to Clay and Hawk (who had a crazy combine). Jones' numbers look better than Manning or Barrington and way better than pre-hamstrung Bishop.

Workout numbers will get you drafted, and get you a shot... but at some point you have to prove you can play.

I liked B. Jones coming out, even though he was only a 7th round pick, I wanted to give him every opportunity - that's the way it works. You mine for gold in the lower round and try to find guys you can develop.

B. Jones is an okay player - if he were the weak link in our LB'ing corp, I'd be okay with that; but he's not the weak link, he's the baseline. Perry is limited at OLB, even if he proves to be a good pass rusher; and Hawk is the poster child for JAG - so now you're running a 3-4 defense, and 3 of your 4 LB's are either pedestrian or somewhat of a poor fit.

Unless you make adjustments to how you put a gameplan on the field - you're going to struggle a lot with guys like that - b/c, believe it or not, opposing OC's are looking for your weaknesses and trying to exploit them.

[wist43]

Sure the pass rush and sacks come from the LBs mostly, but you need the linemen to collapse the pocket, create some pressure, help expose the QB to the LBs

"As for talent comparisons you can't list Perry as DL and Neal must be on both lists. You may not think they should be OLBs but they will be playing OLB. So the talent comparison looks like this:"

It seems as though Perry will line up mostly as an OLB, Neal mostly as a DL, so yes you are correct, but I don't care if they call Raji a corner or Perry a QB as long as they can carry out their assignment. As to Wist's argument: I think he is pretty clear that he believes it's all Caper's fault for putting players in bad positions, but at the same time he seems to be all over the place on whether he thinks there is any talent to work with. You have to have both of course, but my point is that it seems really premature to make a claim one way or the other since so many guys are raw or, because of injuries or changing positions/roles, haven't played much to know what they have to offer. One thing I like about blaming Capers for everything, is it simplifies my life: I had a bad lunch and I blamed Capers. Now I my mind is clear for an afternoon of work.

Dude, I am not "all over the place" on whether I think there is talent to work with - I like the talent, I just see most of them as being a poor fit for a traditional 3-4.

It's not like I'm the only one that sees that.

[mraynrand]

Dude, I am not "all over the place" on whether I think there is talent to work with - I like the talent, I just see most of them as being a poor fit for a traditional 3-4.

It's not like I'm the only one that sees that.

OK.

[pbmax]

It seems as though Perry will line up mostly as an OLB, Neal mostly as a DL, so yes you are correct, but I don't care if they call Raji a corner or Perry a QB as long as they can carry out their assignment. As to Wist's argument: I think he is pretty clear that he believes it's all Caper's fault for putting players in bad positions, but at the same time he seems to be all over the place on whether he thinks there is any talent to work with. You have to have both of course, but my point is that it seems really premature to make a claim one way or the other since so many guys are raw or, because of injuries or changing positions/roles, haven't played much to know what they have to offer. One thing I like about blaming Capers for everything, is it simplifies my life: I had a bad lunch and I blamed Capers. Now I my mind is clear for an afternoon of work.

I wonder about Neal's role. Moving him to OLB and having him drop weight weren't necessary to play him at DT in nickel. Maybe just to preserve him? Seems like there would be something more there.

But of Perry, Neal and Jones, if you shake loose a pass rusher plus Matthews, we won't be discussing if the backend has been solved since there will be little film to go over it.

[mraynrand]

Wist, anyone, do the Packers really need to run a traditional 3-4 to be successful? If they have the personnel for something else, can't that something else work? What alignment with current personnel would you use for run downs and passing downs or to cover either?

[swede]

For as porous as our defense can be between the twenties, it sure gets tough near the goal line.

Didn't we have one of the worst defenses in terms of yardage and an above average defense in terms of scoring in the last few years?

Edit: See the stats PB found below.

[swede]

What a bunch of pussies.


Fuckin' A.

I'm about ready to buy a gross of Vagisil for you ladies ( Not Pugs and MJ, though, they actually have a pair....... Each.)


Thanks! :lol:

I could understand the hand wringing if we were losing like this in the regular season and our starters were in there all game long. Most of the time I've liked what I've seen when the 1's are in there this summer. Bak his gonna need assistance against the likes of the 49ers but I'd wager Bulaga would too.

Way to man up. Pugger!

[Fritz]

Dude, I am not "all over the place" on whether I think there is talent to work with - I like the talent, I just see most of them as being a poor fit for a traditional 3-4.

It's not like I'm the only one that sees that.

The problem may be an organizational issue of philosophy. To respond to the flatlining of the salary cap, Thompson has decided that the organization can only afford the biggie contracts to a couple or few top-notch players. Those tend to be players who are talented and learn pretty quickly.

Feeling the pressure of the future always upon him (Ted is the guy who pays off his mortgage five years early but must wear raggedy clothes and eat sandwiches at home to do so), Thompson is highly reluctant to tie up too much future sal cap. Thus the team has this draft-and-develop strategy that often puts underprepared players in positions of some importance. The catch-on-quick guys like Hayward do fine, but most players take more time and coaching to really develop.

And here might be the heart of the problem: the players that take longest to learn and adjust would be players you're asking to learn a new position. Who would that be? Ah, the two weakest spots on the team - linebacker and offensive line (specifically inside positions).

Converting college defensive ends into outside linebackers, and outside linebackers into inside linebackers, takes time. The problem is that in the Packer's philosophy, there's no time to learn. Rookies are expected to contribute, though the Packers try or pretend to be realistic by acknowledging the expectation that the learning will be fast. That's why MM always talks about the jump from first to second year.

Converting college offensive tackles to guards and centers also takes time. Hell, it takes time for a tackle in college to learn to be a tackle in the NFL. This argument is weak when you look at the number of years Sitton, EDS, and Lang now have, but you could also argue there is really no depth inside, at all. The tackle situation I think has more to do with losing your top two drafted tackles from the last three drafts.

So this could be a problem. And maybe it could be resolved by switching to a 4-3 defense, and by drafting college guards to play guard. This would allow players to learn more quickly since there would be less to learn for a college defensive end to learn about playing pro defensive end than there would be for him to learn about being a linebacker.

So maybe it's not exactly Capers's fault, completely. It could be that Ted's response to the flatlined sal cap is causing MM and company to have to play too many young players too soon.

[pbmax]

For as porous as our defense can be between the twenties, it sure gets tough near the goal line.

Didn't we have one of the worst defenses in terms of yardage and an above average defense in terms of scoring in the last few years?

Packers D Ranks

Year . . . Yards . . .Points
2012 . . 11th . . . 11th
2011 . . 32nd . . . 19th
2010 . . 5th . . . . 2nd
2009 . . 2nd . . . . 7th

[swede]

Packers D Ranks

Year . . . Yards . . .Points
2012 . . 11th . . . 11th
2011 . . 32nd . . . 19th
2010 . . 5th . . . . 2nd
2009 . . 2nd . . . . 7th

The only clear trend is that we are not usually as bad as we think.

In 2011 we were playing prevent D from our first 14-0 lead on.

[Patler]

Packers D Ranks

Year . . . Yards . . .Points
2012 . . 11th . . . 11th
2011 . . 32nd . . . 19th
2010 . . 5th . . . . 2nd
2009 . . 2nd . . . . 7th

Interesting numbers. Don't necessarily jive with the angst displayed by Packer fans.

"Yards" is a category that I don't attach a lot of significance to either offensively or defensively. In the end all that really matters is whether you score points and surrender points.

[Patler]

The only clear trend is that we are not usually as bad as we think.

In 2011 we were playing prevent D from our first 14-0 lead on.

As I recall (and I am too lazy to look) for all the points scored in 2011, the time of possession was not impressive. They scored very quickly when they got their hands on the ball, and quickly gave it back to the opponent. It would be interesting to compare the Opponents # of possessions in 2011 compared to other years.

[pbmax]

More important that the aggregate is the easy access in public memory to the playoff fiascos versus the Giants and 49ers.

I think there is something to the notion that playoff games are more important than many reg season games beyond the obvious. You are facing quality opposition in most cases. But its still a small sample size.

The Giants game still worries me more than the 49ers game. We'll see.

EDIT: Curse auto correct!

[Fritz]

More important that the aggregate is the easy access in pubic memory to the playoff fiascos versus the Giants and 49ers.

I think there is something to the notion that playoff games are more important than many reg season games beyond the obvious. You are facing quality opposition in most cases. But its still a small sample size.

The Giants game still worries me more than the 49ers game. We'll see.

I have many, many pubic memories, but those two games are not amongst them.

[Cheesehead Craig]

As I recall (and I am too lazy to look) for all the points scored in 2011, the time of possession was not impressive. They scored very quickly when they got their hands on the ball, and quickly gave it back to the opponent. It would be interesting to compare the Opponents # of possessions in 2011 compared to other years.

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/plays-per-game

Ask and ye shall receive, for the offense, avg # plays/game (rank):

2012 - 64.7 (10)
2011 - 62.4 (24)
2010 - 62.4 (22)
2009 - 65.2 (6)

Avg TOP for the offense those years:
2012 - 30:06 (14)
2011 - 30:28 (11)
2010 - 32:00 (4)
2009 - 32:46 (2)

PPG vs GB defense:
2012 - 65.0 (20)
2011 - 65.4 (22)
2010 - 60.2 (6)
2009 - 59.1 (3)

Opp TOP vs GB defense:
2012 - 29:53 (14)
2011 - 29:31 (11)
2010 - 27:59 (4)
2009 - 27:13 (2)

[Patler]

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/plays-per-game

Ask and ye shall receive, for the offense, avg # plays/game (rank):

2012 - 64.7 (10)
2011 - 62.4 (24)
2010 - 62.4 (22)
2009 - 65.2 (6)

Avg TOP for the offense those years:
2012 - 30:06 (14)
2011 - 30:28 (11)
2010 - 32:00 (4)
2009 - 32:46 (2)

PPG vs GB defense:
2012 - 65.0 (20)
2011 - 65.4 (22)
2010 - 60.2 (6)
2009 - 59.1 (3)

Opp TOP vs GB defense:
2012 - 29:53 (14)
2011 - 29:31 (11)
2010 - 27:59 (4)
2009 - 27:13 (2)

Thanks!

I'm not sure if there is anything significant in those numbers, or not. Have to think about it a bit.

[bobblehead]

As I recall (and I am too lazy to look) for all the points scored in 2011, the time of possession was not impressive. They scored very quickly when they got their hands on the ball, and quickly gave it back to the opponent. It would be interesting to compare the Opponents # of possessions in 2011 compared to other years.

I agree with not getting caught up in the stats. I know a good D when I see one. 2010 was good D....we won a lot of games with the D on the field. We hit and hurt many QB's. Not so much since.

[bobblehead]

The Giants game still worries me more than the 49ers game. We'll see.

EDIT: Curse auto correct!

Agree...one team knocked out dick in the dirt, the other outschemed us...I don't respect soft teams that win with scheme. SF is soft.

[Bossman641]

Sorry to threadjack a little, but did Brad Jones look as good on TV as he did at the game? Haven't caught a replay yet.

I sort of agree with Wist about the DL being a stronger unit than the LB's at this time, but even more important (I believe) is keeping those guys fresh. I actually really like the mix of guys we have there.

Regarding Capers playing 2-4 on 2nd and 18. If you can get the other team to check into a run and pick up 5-6 yards that's a win. Can't blame Capers for multiple players blowing assignments.

One thing I'm going to try to track this year is the success of the 2 and 3 man rushes on second and third and long. Everyone loves to bitch and moan when it fails but nobody remembers when it works.

[pbmax]

Mr. Jones looked very quick and was in a hurry to get upfield early in the Seattle game. Reactions seemed faster than last year. Hammy injury cut that show short though.

[wist43]

Like Fritz - I don't have any pubic memories either :cnf:

But what max brings up is what I am always bringing up - the playoff blowouts.

I've given the laundry list of indictments: the playoff blowouts, the futility records, the obvious breakdowns, etc...

Yes, you can make excuses for some of those things - youth, injuries, and talent are at the top of the list; but at some point you have to look at the General. There are ways of dealing with those issues - and every DC in the league has to deal with them.

Capers has an MO - and that MO shows a quick fix, and then diminishing results over time, eventually leading to his firing. Don't know why this is - I suspect it has something to do with hair coloring, but that's just a theory ;)

As for what Capers has been putting on the field - definition of insanity, i.e. same thing over and over again expecting different results. As I said, a decent OC worth his salt is going to see the same weaknesses I'm seeing, and he's going to exploit them - unfortunately, we see that played out on the field too often.

You can't abandon fundamentals and expect to get away with it - once in while?? yes, innovative, unexpected?? yes; but baseline fundamentals must be adhered to in your base system or you're going to have huge, and numerous breakdowns - which is exactly what we have been seeing from the Packers the last 2 years.

What set me off this preseason is not the fact that we lost a couple of meaningless games - who gives a shit about wins/losses in the preseason?? All you're looking at is personnel and working on your schemes. It is the schemes that set me off... same ol, same ol.

You're not going to reveal any innovations you might have in store for the regular season, but the core of what you do is going to be on the field - Capers has changed nothing; and having changed nothing, we should expect similar results.

We play SF in just a couple of weeks. I think we have the talent on defense to play with them toe-to-toe... with Capers pulling the strings, however, I expect more of the same that we saw last year - I expect a game completely similar to last years Game 1 domination. The final score of that game may have been 30-22, but the game was never that close - SF dominated us on both sides of the ball, and that had less to do with talent, and more to do with coaching and philosophy.

[wist43]

Agree...one team knocked out dick in the dirt, the other outschemed us...I don't respect soft teams that win with scheme. SF is soft.

lol - yes, those clever ballarinas :hug:

[Tony Oday]

So when we shut down big nose and the rainbow warriors week one Wist will put: Dom Capers is a god in his Sig.

[ThunderDan]

So when we shut down big nose and the rainbow warriors week one Wist will put: Dom Capers is a god in his Sig.

That's what I am wondering also. What if the Pack wins at SF, beats CIN and WASH. We are 3-0 at the bye week. I think at best we are 2-1 with that opening schedule but you never know how teams are going to change from year-to-year.

If the Pack somehow got to 3-0, what would Wist do? Would he apologize to Dom Capers and the rest of the Pack?

How about rbAloha if we stopped both SF and WASH read option? Would his head explode and endanger other Hawaiians on the islands?

[wist43]

That's what I am wondering also. What if the Pack wins at SF, beats CIN and WASH. We are 3-0 at the bye week. I think at best we are 2-1 with that opening schedule but you never know how teams are going to change from year-to-year.

If the Pack somehow got to 3-0, what would Wist do? Would he apologize to Dom Capers and the rest of the Pack?

How about rbAloha if we stopped both SF and WASH read option? Would his head explode and endanger other Hawaiians on the islands?

We could go 3-0, but only if Dom does what I bloody well tell him!!! ;)

If Dom comes out and plays the alignments he's been playing the last 2 years?? No way we beat SF.

I lurk around over on a SF site a little here and there - their fans aren't even looking at GB... in their minds, they're 1-0 already, and moving on. They're expecting another ass whipping - and I agree with them.

[mraynrand]

If Dom comes out and plays the alignments he's been playing the last 2 years?? No way we beat SF.

With Woodson gone and Hayward haywire, I can't see how he will be able to do it. You may be pleasantly surprised (by the alignments against SF, not necessarily the results. IOW, it might be the players that let you down)

[Maxie the Taxi]

With Woodson gone and Hayward haywire, I can't see how he will be able to do it. You may be pleasantly surprised (by the alignments against SF, not necessarily the results. IOW, it might be the players that let you down)

DuJuan Harris has some experience at a car dealership, he might know some secrets about making good alignments.

[mraynrand]

DuJuan Harris has some experience at a car dealership, he might know some secrets about making good alignments.

repped. Where is Wist???

[mraynrand]

DuJuan Harris has some experience at a car dealership, he might know some secrets about making good alignments.

And you would think he would be more detailed in his approach.

[pbmax]

With Woodson gone and Hayward haywire, I can't see how he will be able to do it. You may be pleasantly surprised (by the alignments against SF, not necessarily the results. IOW, it might be the players that let you down)

I think Hayward is hamwired.

[run pMc]

mmm....ham.

[Cheesehead Craig]

And you would think he would be more detailed in his approach.

The defense would likely come through in the clutch.

[Fritz]

We could go 3-0, but only if Dom does what I bloody well tell him!!! ;)

If Dom comes out and plays the alignments he's been playing the last 2 years?? No way we beat SF.

I lurk around over on a SF site a little here and there - their fans aren't even looking at GB... in their minds, they're 1-0 already, and moving on. They're expecting another ass whipping - and I agree with them.


You'd fit in well at a SF fan site.

[Tony Oday]

We beat SF 28-10 in an easy win.

[bobblehead]

Ok, going to put this here as it fits the thread. This camp we released no one that made me say "SHIT". We kept a few guys that made me say "SHIT". I think TT is still going to make some moves. This is the shallowest roster I recall. I hate the LB's and the OL. Hard to say on the RB's, but I think the group is ok if they had an OL.

[pbmax]

Ok, going to put this here as it fits the thread. This camp we released no one that made me say "SHIT". We kept a few guys that made me say "SHIT". I think TT is still going to make some moves. This is the shallowest roster I recall. I hate the LB's and the OL. Hard to say on the RB's, but I think the group is ok if they had an OL.

Disagree on LBs and Defense in general. Like Mulumba and Palmer to provide some rush if they need it. Someone today wrote that Palmer could get unanchored versus the run, but Perry and Neal are ahead of him there so its not a glaring hole. Will be very happy if Brandon Smith and Jordan Miller back on PS.

Offense on the other hand needs a 3rd down back, 2 more lineman (starter at Tackle) and a healthy Quarless. Plus a backup QB.

Actually, Quarless might be the most surprising stick.

[Iron Mike]

mmm....ham.

http://img.foodnetwork.com/FOOD/2003/11/11/ham_with_cider_glaze_lg.jpg

[Pugger]

I'm not losing sleep over the D but the O line is a worry for sure. :-?