The Official Gameweek Discussion thread: 2013 Season Opener: Packers v 49ers

[RashanGary]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWgPpHtDw8A

"We're the San Francisco 49ers, we can do whatever we want, bwahahahahaha" LMFAO. That was priceless.


OK, I listened to that whole interview and I must say, Harbaugh is incredibly cold and insensitive. He said there's no feeling bad or remorse when he cuts players. Said it's exciting to get the best 53. LOL.

Anyway, this is going to be a hell of a grudge match. I have no idea what to expect other than a really emotional, hard fought game. I hope Lacy comes to play. I hope our DL lights them up a little. I hope we have an answer for the read-option.

I hope we can really move the ball on them, win in the redzone and get some key stops. This is, by far, the most exciting way we could possibly have started the season. After this game, we could be the front runner for the super bowl.

[Joemailman]

I expect the Packers to play well, although that may not be enough. The good news, is that almost no one will think the Packers have a chance to win the game. The Packers under MM in recent years have played well in that situation, although it doesn't happen that often. In 2012 they were 2-3 going into Houston to face the 5-0 Texans and blew them out. In 2010, they went into New England without Rodgers to face a red-hot Patriots team and nearly won. In 2009 they were 4-4 and coming off a terrible loss at Tampa Bay when they faced a Dallas team that had won 4 in a row. They beat the Cowboys. So I expect them to respond to this challenge. But let's face it, the 49ers will be favored to win every home game this year. They're that good, so the Packers could play well and still lose.

[Iron Mike]

I don't care about the outcome, as long as I get to see Hairball spaz out:

http://postmediaprovince.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/harbaugh.gif

http://i.imgur.com/4JCINXy.gif

[MJZiggy]

I'm so glad we have M3.

[King Friday]

The only way we have a chance in this game is if our DL comes off the bus mad as hell. This all comes down to us slowing the 49er run game. If we can't do that, we'll lose by double digits.

I'm worried that the rust from many of our playmakers rarely playing in preseason bites us in the ass.

[pbmax]

It's a lock. No need to discuss it. They are winning.

:D

I going to front run this until it actually pans out.

[RashanGary]

I actually think we're a better team. The DL was a real weak spot last year. This year it's a real strength. The rest of the defense is the same or slightly better than a year ago. On offense, I think Lacy changes our attack. We will run better. Our OL is no worse than last year. We're a better team. I don't think SF got any better. Losing Ghoston hurts them.

Everyone may think 49ers, but I think we're the better team. If we lose, oh well, but I think we're going to be better than everyone thinks, even here.

[pbmax]

Wes Hodkiewicz ‏@WesHod 3m
#Packers practice: Hayward only out. Brad Jones, Morgan Burnett Bush and Nixon back. Also, Andy Mulumba switched to No 55

Jason Wilde ‏@jasonjwilde 4m
Everyone present/accounted for at #Packers practice, including new QBs. S Morgan Burnett, ILB Brad Jones back in spots. Hayward watching.

[Tony Oday]

We crush the 9ers so bad they will be called the eighters. Kapernick is not a franchise QB and his three ints in the game will prove it.

[packer4life]

The league finally has tape on Kaepernick and you better believe Dom and every other D coordinator has scouted some weaknesses. Life is a bowl of cherries until people discover your flaws. This year, with people devising specific plans to stop the pistol, K is gonna be exposed. The loss of Crabtree is going to be huge.

This team took a step backward on offense. Can't say the same about the packers. The 9ers lost Goldson and have probably stayed put as an effective unit on D. On the other hand, the pack improved on the D line.

This is going to be a great game!

[Smeefers]

I'm looking forward to a real nail biter. We have all it takes to win the game. I hope that if our O line truly starts to struggle, MM will be smart enough to start sending help to our two weak tackles. Lacy up the middle is going to be a pain for the niners. For every team. He changes the way defenses play against us and that is only going to be to our benefit.

[channtheman]

I don't think we'll win, which means we will win. In conclusion, I have no fucking idea.

[Bretsky]

I still wish we had Bishop; it will be a good game.

I think we may need a reverse W squared Whammy. da Wist whammy

Wist, can I nomimate you to start the game day thread along with some detailed analysis and a prediction ?

[MJZiggy]

I still wish we had Bishop; it will be a good game.

I think we may need a reverse W squared Whammy. da Wist whammy

Wist, can I nomimate you to start the game day thread along with some detailed analysis and a prediction ? Wow, that's risky.

(and B, I think we both need to work on our sigs)

[Bretsky]

Just think of the potential

ever week wist starts the game day thread and the Pack goes 16-0 and runs the table to a championship!

[pittstang5]

I want Harbaugh yelling, screaming, stomping and throwing things all game. It'll mean the Pack is driving him nuts.

I want Kaepernick sacked, at least once, where he gets up and wonders where the freight train that just hit him came from.

I want the o-line, specifically the tackles to hold up against the Smith boys. They don't have to be perfect, just don't get Rogers killed.

[bobblehead]

I actually think we're a better team. The DL was a real weak spot last year. This year it's a real strength. The rest of the defense is the same or slightly better than a year ago. On offense, I think Lacy changes our attack. We will run better. Our OL is no worse than last year. We're a better team. I don't think SF got any better. Losing Ghoston hurts them.

Everyone may think 49ers, but I think we're the better team. If we lose, oh well, but I think we're going to be better than everyone thinks, even here.

I don't completely disagree with you, but I will rehash our same old argument.

We have a better QB, receivers, DB's, equal at RB (if Lacy is healthy) and DL. Problem is that I believe the OL is more important than the RB. We are really bad where it counts.

To top it off, our coaches aren't committed to running or stopping it. Just rewatched the Baltimore/NE AFCC game. 2nd and 12 was often a running play. MM simply would NEVER call that, and our D would be in prevent and let an 8 yard run go.

I still believe we lost last year because MM stopped calling running plays 4 mins into the 3rd quarter. In a tough physical game, he blinks first. In the superbowl run we played with a lead the whole way, so he never had to blink. If we get an early lead here we could beat them. If not, the score will look more lopsided than the game....just like the playoff loss.

[packer4life]

I still wish we had Bishop; it will be a good game.

I think we may need a reverse W squared Whammy. da Wist whammy

Wist, can I nomimate you to start the game day thread along with some detailed analysis and a prediction ?

worst. idea. ever.

[packer4life]

If I was Harbaugh, and after finding out that both Tolzien AND Wallace switched to the Packers the week before the big game, I would get Harrell in ASAP and sign him to the practice squad. He can spend a week in NoCal and even up the sneakiness.

[MJZiggy]

If I was Harbaugh, and after finding out that both Tolzien AND Wallace switched to the Packers the week before the big game, I would get Harrell in ASAP and sign him to the practice squad. He can spend a week in NoCal and even up the sneakiness.

I'm sure Harbaugh's ego has convinced him that he cannot lose and doesn't need to engage in such silliness.

[bobblehead]

If I was Harbaugh, and after finding out that both Tolzien AND Wallace switched to the Packers the week before the big game, I would get Harrell in ASAP and sign him to the practice squad. He can spend a week in NoCal and even up the sneakiness.

don't think he is PS eligible. would take a roster spot to do it.

[packer4life]

Why isn't he PS eligible. He is a free agent at this point after being cut by the Jets. SF could pick him up on their PS and dump someone else for just one week.

[Joemailman]

Why isn't he PS eligible. He is a free agent at this point after being cut by the Jets. SF could pick him up on their PS and dump someone else for just one week.

Because he's been on an NFL roster for a couple years.


Here are the eligibility requirements for practice squad players:

Have no prior Accrued Seasons in the NFL (An accrued season is six or more games on the active roster);
Have one prior Accrued Season in which the player was on the 45-man active roster for no more than 8 games;
If served two seasons on a practice squad, are eligible for a third season only if the team has at least 53 players on its active/inactive list for the duration of that player's employment.

[packer4life]

Ok thanks for the clarification.

So it would be a roster spot burn. Difficult to justify on his part then.

[packer4life]

Interesting line from JSO article writeup after Rodger's first start in 2008.

"Midway through the second quarter, McCarthy junked his conventional two-back sets for a one-back, three-wide receiver set. That led to Mason Crosby's 42-yard field goal and the Packers led, 10-3."

How far we've come.

[pbmax]

I don't think we'll win, which means we will win. In conclusion, I have no fucking idea.

Strong take! :D

[pbmax]

Just think of the potential

ever week wist starts the game day thread and the Pack goes 16-0 and runs the table to a championship!

But its going to be no fun during the game if everyone is too depressed to post!

[wist43]

I still wish we had Bishop; it will be a good game.

I think we may need a reverse W squared Whammy. da Wist whammy

Wist, can I nomimate you to start the game day thread along with some detailed analysis and a prediction ?

I agree with MJ - that's "risky", lol... sounds like it might hurt a bit too :)

[wist43]

I'll give ya this... "Tales of Two Games" :)

Game 1 - we win.

Analysis:

Offense - MM comes out Bill Walshesque - short passing game as substitute for running game. Targets Finley a lot up the seam, and pulls the LB's and S's to him; runs a few screens in behind that in the flat. Calls as many power running plays as zone plays, which catches the Niners off guard, and we are able to generate at least some running game, 80-100 yds. Take a few shots down the field, but only after the defense has settled into the short stuff.

No turnovers.

Defense - Capers does not spraypaint his hair before the game (this is the most important aspect of pregame preparation). Capers runs only 3-4, 4-3, 3-3, 4-2, 3-2 alignments. No 2-4. He plays more short zone and cover 2. We're going to give up yards, but we have to fight them to a draw on the LOS.

2+ turnovers.

Game 2 - we lose.

Offense: MM calls his same old 3 zone running plays, and tries to go bombs away in the passing game. He gives no help to Bacteria intitially, and Rodgers is knocked loopy by the end of the 1st half. Less than 40 yds rushing, and 5+ sacks allowed.

2+ turnovers

Defense: Capers spraypaints his hair - what follows is entirely predictable. He runs 2-4 at least 1/2 the time; plays man so much in the back end that Kapnerfucker shakes loose again. 150+ yds rushing allowed, 250+ yds passing allowed.

0-1 turnovers.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unfortunately, I expect we'll see Game #2 :(

[packrulz]

I'm not confident at all for this one. The 49ers look great, and the Pack has looked sloppy. I guarantee they'll come out swinging hard, I'm not so sure our new tackles can handle it. I sure hope Lacy can get some yards.

[Tony Oday]

Capers shuts Wist up WITH the 2-4 and shuts down the read option and the passing game. Fantasy fans are happy because Fire gets 150 and a TD but that's not enough to stop 300 yards and 4 TDs by AR. A laugher that rocks the league desireous of a successful black qb.

[mraynrand]

Capers shuts Wist up WITH the 2-4 and shuts down the read option and the passing game. Fantasy fans are happy because Fire gets 150 and a TD but that's not enough to stop 300 yards and 4 TDs by AR. A laugher that rocks the league desireous of a successful black qb.

Seneca will look good in the fourth quarter.

[Tony Oday]

Hahaha Seneca plays so well with the lead the Jets offer to trade.

[bobblehead]

There have been successful black QB's, but its usually after they stop looking to run first and do it as a last resort. McNabb, McNair (black Irish only....), and the greatest black QB ever, Warren Moon. Pretty sure the only successful running QB has been Fran Tarkenton, and every other running QB for exactly one season (that list starts with Kordell Slash Stewart and ends with Colin Kapernick I hope).

[mraynrand]

... Pretty sure the only successful running QB has been Fran Tarkenton...

Steve young begs to differ. Had more 50+ rush seasons, higher career av., more total yards, etc. etc. Actually ran the ball forward instead of running around like a MDMA squirrel.

[Upnorth]

Getting what looks to be our hardest game out of the way early is the best part of this game. Now if only our schedule got considerably easier, but championships are earned not granted.
Anyway my biggest fear is our oline. On O our wrs, QB and TE are better. Our rbs are a push but they have a premier oline and we have a pudding oline. Unless Finley has committed to blocking I hope we see more of quarless.
On d, due to the different nature's there dl is obviously better and I argue our lbs are better. Secondary is close but ours is better. I worry about their dl blowing up Rodgers.
I think we lose this battle but begin winning the war this weekend 21-17

[packer4life]

You argue our LBs are better?! Better than Willis, Bowman, Brooks, and Aldon Smith?!

[denverYooper]

I'll give ya this... "Tales of Two Games" :)



Not too shabby Wist, but the strength of that 9ers D is up front -- they are pretty good at shutting down the short game. I am willing to bet that M3/AR are going to stress the top of that 9ers D as soon as they can. Like you, I hope they give some help on the edges and don't just start bombing away out of the gate, but I see Rodgers going after some of those new faces in the secondary. If they start to give... look out.

Now, there's a decent chance that the 9ers come out in the deep C2 that has given the Packers trouble to see how Rodgers (in particular responds). So hopefully we'll see some Lacy early, even if he gets bottled up by the Niners front 7. Also, I thought 12's fastball over the middle looked really sharp in preseason, and I felt his throws to the middle of the field was something he worked on in the offseason. One of Rodgers's weaknesses has been that area of the field, and he's been prone to throwing INTs to MLBs because he's been tentative going there. He's still very good there, but he doesn't look as comfortable there as up the sidelines. It'll be interesting to see if Cobb plays (I think he will) and what kinds of things they might run with Cobb/Finley in the middle of the field -- some hi/lo etc.

I'm pretty excited to see what's in store.

[Upnorth]

You argue our LBs are better?! Better than Willis, Bowman, Brooks, and Aldon Smith?!

So in my stupidity In my head this morning I had them in a 4-3 with the Smiths on the line. My very very bad. Not to detract from Bowman, Willis and Brooks, I just would have taken our 4 over their 3. Completley wrong headed on the 4-3. Smith and clay are a push, Brooks is a bit better then Perry (so far), BOwman and Willis are better than Hawk and Jones.
So I made a mistake. Their LBs are better than our lbs.

Still think we lose 21-17

[pbmax]

Steve young begs to differ. Had more 50+ rush seasons, higher career av., more total yards, etc. etc. Actually ran the ball forward instead of running around like a MDMA squirrel.

Randall Cunningham wasn't too shabby.

[Tony Oday]

Also that part of my comment was more of a joke than anything.

[mraynrand]

Randall Cunningham wasn't too shabby.

the third best of all so far, no? Vick #2, Otto Graham, #1.

[Bossman641]

My fear is that Rodgers/Jordy/Cobb look out of sync with how little time they were able to practice together this offseason. In a bit of a surprise to the rest of the league, the D holds up surprisingly well but the offense can't quite get on track. Packers fall 24-17 but gain confidence in the process.

[Fritz]

I'm more or less of your mind, but the offensive line scares me. I'm afraid Rodgers might die.

[mraynrand]

Joe Buck and Troy Aikman. Just typing it makes my soul despair.

[RashanGary]

My fear is that Rodgers/Jordy/Cobb look out of sync with how little time they were able to practice together this offseason. In a bit of a surprise to the rest of the league, the D holds up surprisingly well but the offense can't quite get on track. Packers fall 24-17 but gain confidence in the process.

i could see this, for sure.

[bobblehead]

the third best of all so far, no? Vick #2, Otto Graham, #1.

I don't go back as far as Graham...entirely different game. I will definately give you Young though.

Not a fan of Cunningham or Vick. Always feel like they fail entirely in the playoffs when they are fully gameplanned for. Same as most runners.

I like scramblers. Guys who are mobile in the pocket and keep plays alive. Guys who keep their eyes downfield when they are on the move.

Runners get hurt. Get gameplanned for. Vick is better than early in his career, but still tucks and runs most of the time when he goes on the move. Kapernick does scare me because he has shown signs of looking to throw first.

[mraynrand]

I don't go back as far as Graham...entirely different game. I will definately give you Young though.

Not a fan of Cunningham or Vick. Always feel like they fail entirely in the playoffs when they are fully gameplanned for. Same as most runners.

I like scramblers. Guys who are mobile in the pocket and keep plays alive. Guys who keep their eyes downfield when they are on the move.

Runners get hurt. Get gameplanned for. Vick is better than early in his career, but still tucks and runs most of the time when he goes on the move. Kapernick does scare me because he has shown signs of looking to throw first.

You're losing me. You wrote "Pretty sure the only successful running QB has been Fran Tarkenton..." So we are talking about the best running QBs, not the best scrambling QBs. As to scrambling, you can differentiate between guys who stay alive in the Pocket (Favre Big Ben and Fran), and guys who are really good at tucking and running (uhh, a good example escapes me, maybe McNabb).

Anyway, I put Otto in there as a kind of joke. He ran a lot, but for horrible averages, yet it seemed like all his runs were critical. So he is the number one QB in effective yards/carry!

[MJZiggy]

Joe Buck and Troy Aikman. Just typing it makes my soul despair.

Ya know, I was doing fine until I read this...

[wist43]

I like Aikman - not so much Buck.

[cheesner]

Ok thanks for the clarification.

So it would be a roster spot burn. Difficult to justify on his part then.
He wouldn't have to sign. He may voluntarily call all the Packer opponents this season, wish them luck and then try and give them as much insight as he possibly can.

Oh, wait. Nevermind. I'm thinking of another former Packer QB who was an asshole.

[mraynrand]

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/222215651.html

LeRoy chats up the RO with Silverstein. Walden screws up twice, Woodson once on the two plays they diagram. DIscusses ad nauseum here; will Perry do better this time? Will Dr. MD Jennings or Mr Hyde show up??

[mraynrand]

BTW, LeRoy needs to take one step back from the bear claws.

[Freak Out]

Joe Buck and Troy Aikman. Just typing it makes my soul despair.

The kiss of death on Sunday.

[pittstang5]

The kiss of death on Sunday.

Most recently, as in last year - yes. However, during the superbowl run, I think they were the announcers for most, if not all, the playoff games and the superbowl.

Still dislike them, especially Buckhole.

[Iron Mike]

I think we may need a reverse W squared Whammy. da Wist whammy


http://saleconn.com/image/cache/data/whammy-anchroman-shirt-700x700.jpg

[wist43]

http://saleconn.com/image/cache/data/whammy-anchroman-shirt-700x700.jpg

Time to musk up!!!

Ron: It's a formiddable scent, it stings the nostrils.

Brian: They've done studies ya know... 60% of the time it works every time


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ccp-lEmoAE

[mraynrand]

Lawsuit!

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/03/aldon-smith-delanie-walker-named-in-lawsuit-over-alleged-shooting/

Ronndale Esporlas wants justice!

[VegasPackFan]

Jason Wilde says no Casey Heyward Sunday - OUT.

[Joemailman]

Jason Wilde says no Casey Heyward Sunday - OUT.

Kind of figured that. He has a re-injured hamstring. They'll be cautious about bringing him back. So who is nickel? House or Hyde? During the preseason for the most part House and Shields were the corners with Hyde in the slot. But Tramon is back now.

[VegasPackFan]

I read House and Hyde will both see time.

[MadScientist]

Music to my ears "Matthews says Packers ready to test rules on hitting option quarterbacks"
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/222386531.html

Now back up that attitude and plant that QB.

[Smidgeon]

Music to my ears "Matthews says Packers ready to test rules on hitting option quarterbacks"
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/222386531.html

Now back up that attitude and plant that QB.

Which of course has Douchebaugh concerned:
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/222403721.html

[VegasPackFan]

"Well, my opinion is when a quarterback, before he is declared being a runner, he should be afforded protection that all quarterbacks are afforded until he declares and gets out of the pocket and starts running the ball or running the option or carrying out a bootleg and attempting a run or a pass when he’s outside the pocket," Harbaugh said.

I thinks that's actually spot on. The minute it looks like he's running the option, he's fair game.

[mraynrand]

Which of course has Douchebaugh concerned:
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/222403721.html

What a tool


You’re hearing a lot of tough talk right now, intimidating type of talk, the kind of things, the same thing we were hearing a couple of years ago. It sounds like targeting a specific player. You definitely start to wonder.

Hairball is using loaded words, trying to make this look like the bounty scandal without the bounty. on his side: The NFL, who wants to keep dynamic players like Kap healthy. It's good for the bottom line. Against him: The rule book, that cannot protect a QB, like a QB once he becomes a runner or a potential runner On his side: The gray area before a QB 'declares' himself a runner, especially outside the pocket.

Bottom line is that the refs are going to protect Kap until and unless he is obviously running the ball. Ultimately, if he is in the pocket and still has the ball, he is a QB. Outside the pocket is where it gets interesting. Since he can still pitch the ball, run or throw, he has to be treated like a runner. Michael Vick always complained that he was being beaten up and didn't get the same protection as other QBs. This is why: because once you're outside the pocket, the defense has no way of knowing what you will do and must treat you as a run threat.

Will the NFL protect Kap from hard, crushing hits outside the pocket? Will the Packers actually be able to deliver such hits? Find out Sunday.

[Patler]

Jason Wilde says no Casey Heyward Sunday - OUT.

This is starting to feel like one of those injuries that is going to hang on all year, or one they will play around with for a month or two, before pulling the plug on his season.

[mraynrand]

"Well, my opinion is when a quarterback, before he is declared being a runner, he should be afforded protection that all quarterbacks are afforded until he declares and gets out of the pocket and starts running the ball or running the option or carrying out a bootleg and attempting a run or a pass when he’s outside the pocket," Harbaugh said.

I thinks that's actually spot on. The minute it looks like he's running the option, he's fair game.

I think once outside the pocket, they have to allow him to be hit like a runner, period. Anything else will be a joke. Re-read the way Hairball phrases it though - as if there is a way of being outside the pocket and not yet 'declared' as a runner.

[mraynrand]

This is starting to feel like one of those injuries that is going to hang on all year, or one they will play around with for a month or two, before pulling the plug on his season.

Return IR!

[mraynrand]

Clay seems to think the rules will allow hits on QB in the pocket, if Kap fakes the option


it looks like as long as that quarterback carries out that play fake, he loses his right as a pocket passer and the rules that govern that.

How is that fundamentally different from a play action pass?

[pbmax]

As long as they allow what the Ravens and Seahawks did, it should be fine. Just don't hit him in the head.

[VegasPackFan]

Good conversation on this topic. HOWEVER, it assumes we do something other than arm-flailing and wild over-pursuit type BS this time around. You actually have to get to him and hit him solidly for any of this to be relevant.

/sarcasm off

[MadScientist]

Clay seems to think the rules will allow hits on QB in the pocket, if Kap fakes the option



How is that fundamentally different from a play action pass?

Play-action is a fake hand off. At no time does the QB pretend to run the ball. In the read option, the QB fakes running the ball (or just actually runs the ball). When the QB is faking being a runner, he can get planted like a runner. It may not matter if he is still in the pocket. There may still be some protection if he throws a pass, in regards to being hit after the pass, but less so if he pitches the ball. With this talk, it would be great if the refs came out with the specifics.

[pbmax]

Play-action is a fake hand off. At no time does the QB pretend to run the ball. In the read option, the QB fakes running the ball (or just actually runs the ball). When the QB is faking being a runner, he can get planted like a runner. It may not matter if he is still in the pocket. There may still be some protection if he throws a pass, in regards to being hit after the pass, but less so if he pitches the ball. With this talk, it would be great if the refs came out with the specifics.

That definition works for the defense and is logical, but how is the ref supposed to know the difference.

Rodgers fakes the same mesh handoff and throws a stick route. Is he not a passer?

[Bossman641]

This is starting to feel like one of those injuries that is going to hang on all year, or one they will play around with for a month or two, before pulling the plug on his season.

I certainly hope not. With an early season bye, you wonder if they will just hold Hayward out through week 4 and then bring him back.

[mraynrand]

That definition works for the defense and is logical, but how is the ref supposed to know the difference.

Rodgers fakes the same mesh handoff and throws a stick route. Is he not a passer?

Exactly. you don't know until after the QB 'declares' himself a runner or passer - that is, after the fact. Kinda like Bugs Bunny figuring out if a bomb is a dud by hitting it with a hammer.

[Tony Oday]

I want them to break the fake franchise QB.

[mraynrand]

lot of excitement here for the big game

[pittstang5]

I want them to break the fake franchise QB.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m_R3riMuVE

[VegasPackFan]

I think a ref can tell the difference between a play fake drop back and a read option type play or bootleg.

[pbmax]

I think a ref can tell the difference between a play fake drop back and a read option type play or bootleg.

The only difference is the ball. Two hands on it from the QB and he puts it into the gut of the RB. But he can still pull it and throw.

Play action is almost never with the ball near the RB.

[VegasPackFan]

The only difference is the ball. Two hands on it from the QB and he puts it into the gut of the RB. But he can still pull it and throw.

Play action is almost never with the ball near the RB.

In play action, he still drops straight back. In the read option he is moving along the line of scrimmage.

[bobblehead]

The only difference is the ball. Two hands on it from the QB and he puts it into the gut of the RB. But he can still pull it and throw.

Play action is almost never with the ball near the RB.

Ok, key point. The RB fakes getting the ball and gets hit on play action. On read option the QB fakes keeping the ball (for the purpose of running it) and as such, hitting him should be allowed. Otherwise you are reading the defenders mind "he KNEW the QB didn't have the ball and was only pretending to have it; therefore he shouldn't have hit him even though the QB was trying to convince him that he needed to be tackled."

If you fake having the ball and get hit, tough shit. If you hand it off and stand upright with your hands at your side, then you don't get hit.

[pbmax]

In play action, he still drops straight back. In the read option he is moving along the line of scrimmage.

In an traditional option, say a normal 2 option play (FB Belly or QB off tackle) OR a triple option (with a pitch man), the QB is absolutely moving along the line of scrimmage.

But in the read option, the back is right next to him (either offset from him at the start in shotgun OR behind him and coming up to him in pistol). Read option from either of those formations looks exactly like a play fake except the two hands. But since you can still either run or pass, its not the same as a play action fake.

[pbmax]

Ok, key point. The RB fakes getting the ball and gets hit on play action. On read option the QB fakes keeping the ball (for the purpose of running it) and as such, hitting him should be allowed. Otherwise you are reading the defenders mind "he KNEW the QB didn't have the ball and was only pretending to have it; therefore he shouldn't have hit him even though the QB was trying to convince him that he needed to be tackled."

If you fake having the ball and get hit, tough shit. If you hand it off and stand upright with your hands at your side, then you don't get hit.

I know what you are getting at, but if he (fake) tucks the ball away and runs, he is a runner and I think the rule covers this already.

If he keeps and steps back to pass, he is a passer.

But what is he at the moment of the mesh? And what is he after he gives and does not run but is attempting to avoid contact with the unblocked DE?

Because that's when Suggs hit him and what Matthews says he's going to hit him.

[packer4life]

I'm bummed about the loss of Hayward. No surprise he's a scratch for the game, but I was looking forward to us having everyone back on D. I don't think House will do well as slot CB in the nickel. He is better on the outside, that means we will be putting a slow, inexperienced rookie in the slot. Better hope he's ready to stick it to Kaepernick.

Would Dom try Shields at nickel and slide House outside if Hyde doesn't show up? Gotta think he has some sort of backup escape plan ready for this one.

[George Cumby]

I think we lose this battle but begin winning the war this weekend 21-17

This.

[mission]

Would Dom try Shields at nickel and slide House outside if Hyde doesn't show up? Gotta think he has some sort of backup escape plan ready for this one.

Dom's track record of having a backup escape plan doesn't speak well for itself.

[Bossman641]

I'm actually not that concerned about Hayward being out this Sunday. Does it suck? Yes, but if he's going to miss games I'd rather it be against a running team. SF's wr's don't exactly strike fear into opposing secondaries (Boldin, Kyle Williams, Chad Hall, and Collie). Hayward had a few clean shots at Kaepernick in the playoffs and blew them. The size of Hyde and House might be more effective against Kapernick and the run game.

[VegasPackFan]

WR's should be Boldin, Marlin Moore, Quinton Patton, Williams and then Vernon Davis. They may not be known well but there's talent there especially with Patton. We'll see. We arent that great against power running teams either.

[Bossman641]

WR's should be Boldin, Marlin Moore, Quinton Patton, Williams and then Vernon Davis. They may not be known well but there's talent there especially with Patton. We'll see. We arent that great against power running teams either.

Sorry, forgot about Patton. I'm not saying we are great against power running teams, just that the dropoff between Hayward and Hyde/House would be further magnified against a really good passing offense with multiple dangerous WR.

[Iron Mike]

We'll be OK, as long as we keep our pad level down....

http://mcguirehimself.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/mccarthy.jpg

[bobblehead]

I know what you are getting at, but if he (fake) tucks the ball away and runs, he is a runner and I think the rule covers this already.

If he keeps and steps back to pass, he is a passer.

But what is he at the moment of the mesh? And what is he after he gives and does not run but is attempting to avoid contact with the unblocked DE?

Because that's when Suggs hit him and what Matthews says he's going to hit him.

If he is NOT faking having the ball he can't be hit. I rewatched the superbowl and yes, Suggs was borderline on many "hits", but he wasn't hitting him very hard, and again, if Kap holds his hands out and obviously doesn't have the ball he can't be hit. However, if you run that play and are a threat to keep it, you better make it VERY clear you don't have the ball if you don't want to be hit.

The flip side to this is as I said right after the last game. Its not that hard to defend. Yes, the QB is turned into an effective blocker because someone must be dedicated to him, but forcing the handoff and playing it normal is quite simple.

[pbmax]

Great read from Wilde on the help Dave Aranda (UW's new defensive coordinator) might have given to Dom Capers during a visit the two had this past Spring.

http://espnwisconsin.com/common/page.php?feed=2&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&id=9301&is_corp=1


And an even better read on how Aranda adjusted his defense to defend the read option in college:

http://xandolabs.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=421:31utah-state-two-gapping-the-read-zone-game&catid=95:defense&Itemid=164

A little preview, Aranda does not think rushing all out to hit the QB on a read option play will end well and points not just to the Packers, but to the trouble the Ravens had in the second half of the Super Bowl as confirmation.

[pbmax]

Its not that hard to defend. Yes, the QB is turned into an effective blocker because someone must be dedicated to him, but forcing the handoff and playing it normal is quite simple.

But that is precisely WHY it works now in the pros. Aranda and Capers refer to it in the article I linked to above. At least since Lawrence Taylor and often well before that, ends in the pros have been asked to get upfield and put pressure on the QB. The read option, if an end gives the QB that quick of a read, will devastate the defense because that end has vacated one of two gaps and the O line is double teaming the only guy (DT) who could squeeze the interior one. Its 4 on 3 if the end gives you a quick read.

Unlike a traditional belly option (or triple option) you don't get to have your DT and DE play one assignment each versus the option.

Your DE is ignored and your DT is double teamed. You need time to get a linebacker into the area and bring a safety down the alley. Not to mention having the CB read to stop pitch/wide QB run.

[Pugger]

I'm bummed about the loss of Hayward. No surprise he's a scratch for the game, but I was looking forward to us having everyone back on D. I don't think House will do well as slot CB in the nickel. He is better on the outside, that means we will be putting a slow, inexperienced rookie in the slot. Better hope he's ready to stick it to Kaepernick.

Would Dom try Shields at nickel and slide House outside if Hyde doesn't show up? Gotta think he has some sort of backup escape plan ready for this one.

Isn't Shields the starter? I would think with Hayward out Hyde would be the nickel.

[mraynrand]

I didn't get a chance to read the articles, but it seems to me that:
1) The DE/OLB can be trained to read the RO, just like a lineman can smell out a screen. "Gee, I'm not being blocked, what could that mean?" (contain first, rush second)
2) Bringing various types of pressure (especially it seems a zone blitz) could significantly disrupt the play, without compromising coverage, and should be even more effective if there is a strong tendency for the RO to one side
3) Packers talked about having Matthews 'freelance' more. Could that mean having others 'rush' the passer and having Matthews available for zone blitzes - or at least for straight up interior pass rush, with OLB keeping contain? Seems that Matthews could stop the quick run or the fake (pass) and the OLBs then could contain the outside run (and/or pitch, where applicable).

[pbmax]

Blitzing is definitely an option and has been done, but there can be two problems.

One is that there are variations of the read option that can go backside. The version run most often on Packers was two playside options, Gore on dive to guard tackle gap and CK wide. You can have Gore head to backside Guard. A blitz to playside can be vulnerable to this.

Second, a blitz can vacate a zone and if they pass out of the mesh, its an easy completion.

[Cheesehead Craig]

What's the magic number for the defense again that rbaloha liked to point out? 795? I-94? 3 for $5?

[mraynrand]

Isn't Shields the starter? I would think with Hayward out Hyde would be the nickel.

and House would be the dime. Still, the nickels and Dime dbs aren't required to play any particular spot, just what suits them best. A lot of times the nickel comes in and plays outside corner, and your starting corner moves inside. I would think that with a premium placed on run defense and tackling, Hyde might just stay inside. Pack4life I think is right - if Mr. Hyde plays poorly you might have to have Shields play inside, House outside or go with Dr. Jennings as your extra defensive back (three safeties in nickel and dime).

? Is it for sure Burnett and Jennings at Safety to start? Who is the first safety on the depth chart....

[Tony Oday]

Every read option hit Kapernick hard. Don't worry about the toss hit the QB.

[wist43]

Great read from Wilde on the help Dave Aranda (UW's new defensive coordinator) might have given to Dom Capers during a visit the two had this past Spring.

http://espnwisconsin.com/common/page.php?feed=2&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&id=9301&is_corp=1


And an even better read on how Aranda adjusted his defense to defend the read option in college:

http://xandolabs.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=421:31utah-state-two-gapping-the-read-zone-game&catid=95:defense&Itemid=164

A little preview, Aranda does not think rushing all out to hit the QB on a read option play will end well and points not just to the Packers, but to the trouble the Ravens had in the second half of the Super Bowl as confirmation.

Aranda is drawing up the response out of a 4-3 - that is a completely different animal than what the Packers should be putting on the field.

However, since we really don't have 3-4 personnel, it is advice we might have to take. Jolly might could fit the bill - and we have Pickett, but if either of those guys fails in their assignment, we're in big trouble on that given play.

The Ravens consistently hit Kapnerfucker, and whether that had an effect upon what the Niners were calling later in the game, I don't know - but I think that is the proper approach. Account for the QB on every snap, check him off the list as a runner, move on to your next responsibility, and contain him in the pocket.

If you're losing the LOS battle however, it simply doesn't matter what you're doing to counter the QB. We have enough firepower on the DL, that we should be able to fight them close enough to a draw that we force them to throw - but Capers hasn't shown any inclination to forcing them to do anything - he is reactionary, and he expects them to play the way he wants them to play, i.e. as if they are 100 pts behind, and the run simply does not matter.

Capers is our own worst enemy - I'll be shocked if he comes out and shows some determination to actually battle on the LOS. 3rd and 8 is a plausible run down for the Niners, but Capers will never, ever view it that way. He'll jump into his beloved 2-4, and we'll be in big trouble again.

[mraynrand]

Aranda is saying specifically NOT to target the QB, but to muddy the waters to get back the 4 on 4 matchup. Exotic pressures give the advantage to the QB. Give him no clean reads. 2 gap across the board. That's what I read.

I agree with the no clean reads. I like having Matthews set up inside more - esp if the OLBs play off more and read. Will be interesting to see how often Perry and Neal are at OLB with Matthews inside, if at all.

[Bossman641]

Aranda is saying specifically NOT to target the QB, but to muddy the waters to get back the 4 on 4 matchup. Exotic pressures give the advantage to the QB. Give him no clean reads. 2 gap across the board. That's what I read.

I agree with the no clean reads. I like having Matthews set up inside more - esp if the OLBs play off more and read. Will be interesting to see how often Perry and Neal are at OLB with Matthews inside, if at all.

That's how I read it as well. Basically asking the DE/OLB to wait as long as possible to make any up the field moves and instead try to stretch the play out.

[mraynrand]

And an even better read on how Aranda adjusted his defense to defend the read option in college:

http://xandolabs.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=421:31utah-state-two-gapping-the-read-zone-game&catid=95:defense&Itemid=164

That is a difficult read. Lots of insider terminology and jargon. I think i need a Tylenol

[pbmax]

In the first half the Ravens were sending a safety down on every read option play into the alley of that play. In a position to force on a give but free enough to pursue the QB wide. You should be able to pass on such an alignment and CK missed a couple of opportunities early. But they took full advantage in the 2nd Half.

I don't think the Packers crashed as hard towards CK necessarily, but Walden was scraping inside to squeeze the give (he did not get off these blocks well enough) but help to the outside was late in coming. Specifically, the 56 yard TD, Jones got fascinated by the give, hesitated, and whether CK saw this or not, left the entire wide right side (offense) open.

The way the 49ers double teamed Raji, it was really a 3 on 2 play. QB, RB, blocking FB going against an ILB and an OLB. Aranda's advice would apply here. If you are going to run that alignment, you must NOT charge into the backfield. You need the uncertainty to allow the safety and CB to get over to help. That makes the matchup 3 on 3.

[pbmax]

That is a difficult read. Lots of insider terminology and jargon. I think i need a Tylenol

Yeah, I started getting lost after inside and outside shoulder diagrams looked exactly alike. Also, the read and veer options they are diagramming are not exactly what the 49ers ran.

[wist43]

Aranda is saying specifically NOT to target the QB, but to muddy the waters to get back the 4 on 4 matchup. Exotic pressures give the advantage to the QB. Give him no clean reads. 2 gap across the board. That's what I read.

I agree with the no clean reads. I like having Matthews set up inside more - esp if the OLBs play off more and read. Will be interesting to see how often Perry and Neal are at OLB with Matthews inside, if at all.

Yes, that's what he said - and I don't agree with that.

I want to bloody Kapnerfucker up from the first snap. If you control the LOS with your down lineman (which Aranda did say to do), you can send Matthews or Perry right after Kapnerfucker, and smack him in the mouth every play - eventually, it'll get in his head and wear him down.

Mr. Holdingintheendzone will send in a pistol call, and Kapnercoward will call another play in the huddle - tired of getting smacked around.

Q: who ya gonna have 2-gapping?? You gonna scrap the 2-4 on 3rd and 8??

As I said, you can say Jolly and Pickett can 2-gap, but that's it - and what are the odds that they will be on the field together very much?? and, we all know Capers will be in a 2-4 on 3rd and 8 - and he absolutely won't have 4 DL on the field at the same time. See the problem with translating Aranda's remedy to our personnel and what Capers is likely to do??

The results we will be evaluating come Monday can't possibly be as bad as the 579 turd Capers laid 8 months ago, but I seriously doubt he will make the changes necessary to slow the Niners down much. Capers is who he is... a leopard doesn't change his spots.

Capers believes coverage trumps run defense and pressure every time - it will be a mighty internal struggle for him to come off of that core belief.

He can't possibly be as inept as he was 8 months ago, but I suspect we're in for another ass-whoopin on Sunday. They stomped us last year - twice, and the only upgrade we've got coming in is D. Jones.

Kapnermoron won't run for another 181, but we're still undermanned up front - at least the way Mr. Spraypaintedhair approaches front six play.

[mraynrand]

Yes, that's what he said - and I don't agree with that.

I want to bloody Kapup from the first snap. If you control the LOS with your down lineman (which Aranda did say to do), you can send Matthews or Perry right after Kap and smack him in the mouth every play - eventually, it'll get in his head and wear him down.

This seems overly simplistic. You want to rush both OLBs on every play? I would think a high school QB could dissect that, and the RO will destroy it.

Capers is not an incompetent. See for example his defense of Vick in 2010 playoffs (note that Vick came into the reg season game after Kolb got concussed and lit the Packers up). Capers adjusted and mixed up the pressure (recall sending Bishop on first play). That was a pretty high powered offense (though slightly handicapped with injury to #10. Kap is better than Vick and SF O-line is superior to Philly. Have to recognize that SF has too many options for GB to play some kind of predictable vanilla bob defense. Also recall that Clay got controlled in the playoffs.


BTW, Rush Limbaugh is talking about Clay, Kap, the RO, NFL safety rules and the comments by Clay and Hairball!

[mraynrand]

As I said, you can say Jolly and Pickett can 2-gap, but that's it - and what are the odds that they will be on the field together very much?? and, we all know Capers will be in a 2-4 on 3rd and 8 - and he absolutely won't have 4 DL on the field at the same time. See the problem with translating Aranda's remedy to our personnel and what Capers is likely to do??.

That's the interesting point. I think Wilson can 2-gap, but I think Capers will do something different, like bring Matthews from different positions, while Perry and perhaps Neal secure the edge. In other words, you may only need one or two DL 2-gapping, if you have matthews shooting another gap

[mraynrand]

In the first half the Ravens were sending a safety down on every read option play into the alley of that play. In a position to force on a give but free enough to pursue the QB wide. You should be able to pass on such an alignment and CK missed a couple of opportunities early. But they took full advantage in the 2nd Half.

I don't think the Packers crashed as hard towards CK necessarily, but Walden was scraping inside to squeeze the give (he did not get off these blocks well enough) but help to the outside was late in coming. Specifically, the 56 yard TD, Jones got fascinated by the give, hesitated, and whether CK saw this or not, left the entire wide right side (offense) open.

The way the 49ers double teamed Raji, it was really a 3 on 2 play. QB, RB, blocking FB going against an ILB and an OLB. Aranda's advice would apply here. If you are going to run that alignment, you must NOT charge into the backfield. You need the uncertainty to allow the safety and CB to get over to help. That makes the matchup 3 on 3.

perfect summary.

in general, you really need patience and discipline. I think back to the play where Kap threw the short toss to Gore, with Woodson in coverage. Woodson left Gore for Kap too soon and gave up a huge play. Better to play off and be able to stop Gore for a 5-10 yard completion or maybe even less yards if Kap keeps it. That play reminded me of the abysmal start to the wildcard game against MN in 2004. Gotta be disciplined, gotta contain first with a dynamic player like Kap and that offense.

[Zool]

That's the interesting point. I think Wilson can 2-gap, but I think Capers will do something different, like bring Matthews from different positions, while Perry and perhaps Neal secure the edge. In other words, you may only need one or two DL 2-gapping, if you have matthews shooting another gap

I think they made Neal a OLB so that they can a sort of run a 4-3 with him and Perry as the ends and CM3 going where ever he chooses on a play. Can overload and have one of Perry/Neal drop into a zone.

[Maxie the Taxi]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_EjMs5aJpPPM/SwWZVwUEm5I/AAAAAAAABAw/s1hzsNDDmr8/s320/Tattooed+014.JPG

Classic two gap D-lineman.

[mraynrand]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_EjMs5aJpPPM/SwWZVwUEm5I/AAAAAAAABAw/s1hzsNDDmr8/s320/Tattooed+014.JPG

Classic two gap D-lineman.

LOL. That would be even better if the teeth were really missing, not just photoshopped out.

[pittstang5]

Question

Was Neal, Perry and Mathews on the field at the same time at any point during the preseason. I only remember seeing Mathews and Perry, then Perry and Neal at OLB. Heck, I don't even remember Neal playing DE much, if at all.

[bobblehead]

But that is precisely WHY it works now in the pros. Aranda and Capers refer to it in the article I linked to above. At least since Lawrence Taylor and often well before that, ends in the pros have been asked to get upfield and put pressure on the QB. The read option, if an end gives the QB that quick of a read, will devastate the defense because that end has vacated one of two gaps and the O line is double teaming the only guy (DT) who could squeeze the interior one. Its 4 on 3 if the end gives you a quick read.

Unlike a traditional belly option (or triple option) you don't get to have your DT and DE play one assignment each versus the option.

Your DE is ignored and your DT is double teamed. You need time to get a linebacker into the area and bring a safety down the alley. Not to mention having the CB read to stop pitch/wide QB run.

Yes, it helps the run game. Its not a coincidence that Willis McGehee looked young again when Tebow took over at QB 2 years ago. But running isn't important anyway. Its a passers league I keep being told. Its not a big deal, so force the damn handoff Walden and give up 6 yards so long as Kapernick isn't scampering 80 yards around the outside to a TD.

If your QB is a very good passer the RO is a big help, however, I don't think any of the RO QB's are good enough passers at this point to worry about. Give up the extra yardage in the run game, wait for the impatience to set in and win the game. Obviously if you can get really good with safety support and LB play to stuff the run cold in the RO, thats a bonus.

[mraynrand]

Yes, it helps the run game. Its not a coincidence that Willis McGehee looked young again when Tebow took over at QB 2 years ago. But running isn't important anyway. Its a passers league I keep being told. Its not a big deal, so force the damn handoff Walden and give up 6 yards so long as Kapernick isn't scampering 80 yards around the outside to a TD.

If your QB is a very good passer the RO is a big help, however, I don't think any of the RO QB's are good enough passers at this point to worry about. Give up the extra yardage in the run game, wait for the impatience to set in and win the game. Obviously if you can get really good with safety support and LB play to stuff the run cold in the RO, thats a bonus.

Just a minor quibble about McGahee. He got 2.5 times the yards of the previous year because he got 2.5 times the carries. he got more carries because Tebow really can't run an NFL style passing offense. McGahee's average with Bal in 2009 was slightly better than 2011. When Peyton Manning rolled into town, McGahee's yards dropped off dramatically and his av slumped back to about his career average. I assume the read option helps the run game, but in the case of McGahee, his improved numbers came because they fed him the ball a hell of a lot more, not because the RO was such a threat (with Tebow it was largely a double threat, with Kap it is a triple threat)

[Fritz]

In the first half the Ravens were sending a safety down on every read option play into the alley of that play. In a position to force on a give but free enough to pursue the QB wide. You should be able to pass on such an alignment and CK missed a couple of opportunities early. But they took full advantage in the 2nd Half.

I don't think the Packers crashed as hard towards CK necessarily, but Walden was scraping inside to squeeze the give (he did not get off these blocks well enough) but help to the outside was late in coming. Specifically, the 56 yard TD, Jones got fascinated by the give, hesitated, and whether CK saw this or not, left the entire wide right side (offense) open.

The way the 49ers double teamed Raji, it was really a 3 on 2 play. QB, RB, blocking FB going against an ILB and an OLB. Aranda's advice would apply here. If you are going to run that alignment, you must NOT charge into the backfield. You need the uncertainty to allow the safety and CB to get over to help. That makes the matchup 3 on 3.


This need to contain and not attack must be difficult for NFL defenders, who tend to be, by nature, aggressive - and have been taught to be aggressive. Now you're asking these guys to contain and manage. Not easy.

The second issue is that by not attacking, the defense is allowing the QB more time to pass. This puts a lot of pressure on the defensive backs.

No wonder it's been hard to defend.

[KYPack]

That's the interesting point. I think Wilson can 2-gap, but I think Capers will do something different, like bring Matthews from different positions, while Perry and perhaps Neal secure the edge. In other words, you may only need one or two DL 2-gapping, if you have matthews shooting another gap

Nah, Rand. Wilson can't two gap. We have two DL that can two gap. Ryan Pickett and Jolly. The latter could two gap a dumptruck. This game I think you will see CMIII in coverage a lot more than people think.

I'd like to get me a time machine and go back to the 3rd quarter of that ball game last season. We had the lead. Get a safety to stay in position like Wood wasn't doing. And get a OLB to read and react properly like Walden had no clue & take Hairball's crew on. Wood and Walden hosed us big time in that game and if they'd have read their keys and played their reads, we'd have been a helluva a lot better off.

I think Jolly and his playmates will give us better coverage inside against the dive. Perry's lack of mobility at OLB MAY work in our favor. When they run the RO to the right, they don't really block the OLB. They option him. I'm hopin' Perry is better at playing the option than he is rushing the passer.

So, we stop the dive, populate K's running lanes, & cover his receivers, no 579, mebbe.

Trying to hit Super K every play is a flawed strategy. Even Stubbs didn't try to do that one. One thing I would like to see is nail K every time he runs that fake boot after the dive. Stubbs did that in the SB. Kap dropped that boot fake like a hot rock.

What did the Ravens do that we didn't when we played SF? Baltimore played Haloti Ngata. You guys seem to want all these two gappers, Ngata could two gap an ICBM. When he went out with the leg injury, SF got back in the ball game.

We need Johnny Jolly to be our Ngata.

Then we'll take 'em on, dern it!

[Fritz]

Then I hope ol' Johnny's in game shape; he could get a lot of snaps!

[pbmax]

I think they made Neal a OLB so that they can a sort of run a 4-3 with him and Perry as the ends and CM3 going where ever he chooses on a play. Can overload and have one of Perry/Neal drop into a zone.

I think this is the most obvious thing to do with Neal. I wonder if an ILB or DB comes out though. Perry and Neal are big enough to stand up to a run play. Clay in coverage would be dicey since he would have S assignments.

But if they took Hawk out and played Matthews strong side, could be interesting.

And again let me restate what control the LOS people refuse to acknowledge. On Kapernick's touchdown, Raji and Pickett got double teamed and Wilson and Matthews were backside. None of them was within five yards of the ball at any time.

Now that is not to say the D line did not have breakdowns. But those game changing plays plus his scrambles were not control the LOS issues. Ready to be proven wrong yet again, its speed, position and assignments more than beef at issue here.

[pbmax]

This need to contain and not attack must be difficult for NFL defenders, who tend to be, by nature, aggressive - and have been taught to be aggressive. Now you're asking these guys to contain and manage. Not easy.

The second issue is that by not attacking, the defense is allowing the QB more time to pass. This puts a lot of pressure on the defensive backs.

No wonder it's been hard to defend.

I think that is a big reason the Capers defense was particularly susceptible. When in doubt attack and be a little loose with your assignments describes a lot of Packer Defensive games.

The downside about passing for the O is that you are running a lot of 2 and 3 man routes, so coverage is possible until pressure arrives.

[pbmax]

What did the Ravens do that we didn't when we played SF? Baltimore played Haloti Ngata. You guys seem to want all these two gappers, Ngata could two gap an ICBM. When he went out with the leg injury, SF got back in the ball game.

We need Johnny Jolly to be our Ngata.


There is a limit to what a 2 gapping interior guy will be able to do, however.

Gore still ran 19 times for 110 yards (5.8 per).

[mraynrand]

I think this is the most obvious thing to do with Neal. I wonder if an ILB or DB comes out though. Perry and Neal are big enough to stand up to a run play. Clay in coverage would be dicey since he would have S assignments.

But if they took Hawk out and played Matthews strong side, could be interesting.

And again let me restate what control the LOS people refuse to acknowledge. On Kapernick's touchdown, Raji and Pickett got double teamed and Wilson and Matthews were backside. None of them was within five yards of the ball at any time.

Now that is not to say the D line did not have breakdowns. But those game changing plays plus his scrambles were not control the LOS issues. Ready to be proven wrong yet again, its speed, position and assignments more than beef at issue here.

I'm reminded of a scene from Lawrence of Arbia:


BRIGHTON: Dreaming won't get
you to Damascus, sir, but discipline
will. Look, sir, Great Britain is a small
country; it's much smaller than yours; a
small population compared with some; it's
small but it's great, and why?

ALI: Because it has guns!

BRIGHTON: Because it has discipline!*







*P.S. it was exotic scheming and blitzes that won Aqaba!

[mraynrand]

You guys seem to want all these two gappers, Ngata could two gap an ICBM.

Slim Pickins on the other hand, struggled holding his anchor

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-gJWEmf0Nrac/T82EpwKi9kI/AAAAAAAABUM/Wxau8v6ovsk/s320/600full-dr.-strangelove-or+-how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-love-the-bomb-screenshot.jpg

[pbmax]

What could Scott Tolzien teach the Packers? Trent Dilfer said he gave the 49ers the entire Seahawk playbook in 2006 (two 49er wins). Dilfer offers his opinion on what Tolzien could be expected to provide.

http://blog.sfgate.com/49ers/2013/09/03/dilfer-ex-49ers-qb-tolzien-could-give-packers-assist/

[mraynrand]

What could Scott Tolzien teach the Packers? Trent Dilfer said he gave the 49ers the entire Seahawk playbook in 2006 (two 49er wins). Dilfer offers his opinion on what Tolzien could be expected to provide.

http://blog.sfgate.com/49ers/2013/09/03/dilfer-ex-49ers-qb-tolzien-could-give-packers-assist/


if you’re the Green Bay Packers and you want to be taken behind the veil, so to speak, of what the 49ers do, the best guy to get is Scott Tolzien. Because the whole reason he was on the 49ers’ roster is because he was a smart guy. It wasn’t because he was a highly talented player.

Ha, ha! Dilfer speaks from experience to be sure.

[pbmax]

Come on Harbaugh meltdown!

ProFootballTalk ‏@ProFootballTalk 1m
NFL confirms: Read-option quarterbacks can be hit like runners http://wp.me/p14QSB-9gmG

[mraynrand]

“He is still treated as a runner until he is clearly out of the play,” Blandino said. “The quarterback makes the pitch, he’s still a runner — he can be hit like a runner until he’s clearly out of the play.”

Release the hounds!

[Guiness]

Come on Harbaugh meltdown!

ProFootballTalk ‏@ProFootballTalk 1m
NFL confirms: Read-option quarterbacks can be hit like runners http://wp.me/p14QSB-9gmG

Just read that. It confirms what CMIII has been saying, and Harbaugh has been complaining about http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/04/harbaugh-raises-concerns-over-talk-of-hitting-kaepernick/ and levels things out a bit.

[Pugger]

Yes, that's what he said - and I don't agree with that.

I want to bloody Kapnerfucker up from the first snap. If you control the LOS with your down lineman (which Aranda did say to do), you can send Matthews or Perry right after Kapnerfucker, and smack him in the mouth every play - eventually, it'll get in his head and wear him down.

Mr. Holdingintheendzone will send in a pistol call, and Kapnercoward will call another play in the huddle - tired of getting smacked around.

Q: who ya gonna have 2-gapping?? You gonna scrap the 2-4 on 3rd and 8??

As I said, you can say Jolly and Pickett can 2-gap, but that's it - and what are the odds that they will be on the field together very much?? and, we all know Capers will be in a 2-4 on 3rd and 8 - and he absolutely won't have 4 DL on the field at the same time. See the problem with translating Aranda's remedy to our personnel and what Capers is likely to do??

The results we will be evaluating come Monday can't possibly be as bad as the 579 turd Capers laid 8 months ago, but I seriously doubt he will make the changes necessary to slow the Niners down much. Capers is who he is... a leopard doesn't change his spots.

Capers believes coverage trumps run defense and pressure every time - it will be a mighty internal struggle for him to come off of that core belief.

He can't possibly be as inept as he was 8 months ago, but I suspect we're in for another ass-whoopin on Sunday. They stomped us last year - twice, and the only upgrade we've got coming in is D. Jones.

Kapnermoron won't run for another 181, but we're still undermanned up front - at least the way Mr. Spraypaintedhair approaches front six play.

:lol:

Datone Jones is the only upgrade? I know you have no love for Mr. Spraypaintedhair :lol: but this won't be the same defense we trotted out there last January.

[bobblehead]

Just a minor quibble about McGahee. He got 2.5 times the yards of the previous year because he got 2.5 times the carries. he got more carries because Tebow really can't run an NFL style passing offense. McGahee's average with Bal in 2009 was slightly better than 2011. When Peyton Manning rolled into town, McGahee's yards dropped off dramatically and his av slumped back to about his career average. I assume the read option helps the run game, but in the case of McGahee, his improved numbers came because they fed him the ball a hell of a lot more, not because the RO was such a threat (with Tebow it was largely a double threat, with Kap it is a triple threat)

Yes and no. McGahee was the second active leader in carries. A lot of miles. He was/is washed up, but the RO put him back in the effective range. Yes, carries matter, but there was a reason he wasn't getting the carries. However as you point out, Tebow (and most RO QB's) can't run effective NFL offenses. That is why I am anti RO/running QB's.

[bobblehead]

I think they made Neal a OLB so that they can a sort of run a 4-3 with him and Perry as the ends and CM3 going where ever he chooses on a play. Can overload and have one of Perry/Neal drop into a zone.

I still think they did it because without the PED's he can't keep on the weight required to be a DL.....just my 2 cents worth.

[Pugger]

I wish Clay wouldn't have opened his yap about hitting the QB. All it did was get Harbawl all in a tizzy and crying to the refs. I just hope the officials in this game won't flag him for hitting CK even if the hit was legal after all of this crap. I know the rules say a defender can hit a QB if he is acting like a runner but you know how refs can be when it comes to "judgement calls". :-?

[KYPack]

Slim Pickins on the other hand, struggled holding his anchor

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-gJWEmf0Nrac/T82EpwKi9kI/AAAAAAAABUM/Wxau8v6ovsk/s320/600full-dr.-strangelove-or+-how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-love-the-bomb-screenshot.jpg

Classic flick, classic pic.

[KYPack]

There is a limit to what a 2 gapping interior guy will be able to do, however.

Gore still ran 19 times for 110 yards (5.8 per).

I'll need a breakdown of Gore's yardage pre and post Ngata.

Don't do it coach,I'm kiddin ya, but those were two different defenses when the big Samoan was out.

[pbmax]

I'll need a breakdown of Gore's yardage pre and post Ngata.

Don't do it coach,I'm kiddin ya, but those were two different defenses when the big Samoan was out.

Absolutely

[Fritz]

This leads me to a topic I've been pondering: the injuries and absences on both teams.

Last year, as we were all aware, the Niners had phenomenal luck in terms of injuries. Phenomenol. They trotted out the same guys pretty much every week. This year, they're missing some pieces: Crabtree for a while, Gholston gone, one of the cornerbacks, and probably another one or two I can't recall.

The Packers seem to have their usual assortment - hey, we lost our starting left tackle for the season! But maybe Nelson can shake off some rust, as could Cobb, and maybe the Niners' injuries will make a difference, too.

It'll be interesting. The ESPN heads the other day on the radio picked SF all the way, due to their dominance of the trenches (cue Wist).

But we shall see. I will be watching the game alone, so I'll be on Packerrats to call for various Packer players' jobs, if not their heads, after boneheaded plays.

[pbmax]

Packer Injury Report this week is Hayward OUT and Bush LIMITED. That's it.

Bush took part in more practice yesterday than the day before according to reporters, so he seems on target to play.

[Iron Mike]

I wish Clay wouldn't have opened his yap about hitting the QB. All it did was get Harbawl all in a tizzy and crying to the refs.

http://lastangryfan.com/wp-content/uploads/Jim-Harbaugh.gif?adb689

[mraynrand]

I will be watching the game alone

when you watch alone, do you prefer to be by yourself?

[mraynrand]

Packer Injury Report this week is Hayward OUT and Bush LIMITED.

[triple entendre] Bush has always been limited (just ask Fritz) [/triple entendre]

[Smidgeon]

I wish Clay wouldn't have opened his yap about hitting the QB. All it did was get Harbawl all in a tizzy and crying to the refs. I just hope the officials in this game won't flag him for hitting Douchebaugh after all of this crap. I know the rules say a defender can hit a QB if he is acting like a runner but you know how refs can be when it comes to "judgement calls". :-?

Fixed.

[Fritz]

when you watch alone, do you prefer to be by yourself?

With my buddy Jim Beam.

[MadtownPacker]

Got my Packers polo on and trash talking all whiners fans in sight!! Fuck them and their shiteating, former bear loser, superbowl choker coach!

[George Cumby]

Got my Packers polo on and trash talking all whiners fans in sight!! Fuck them and their shiteating, former bear loser, superbowl choker coach!

Fuggin' A', Essay!

I got a bet with my neighbor who's a Niners fan. Whoever's team wins gets to fly their teams flag on the others house for a week. Green is going to look good on his house!

[packer4life]

Burnett held out of practice today. Please god let this be just for rest purposes. We need our secondary general in the lineup!!!

[MadtownPacker]

Fuggin' A', Essay!

I got a bet with my neighbor who's a Niners fan. Whoever's team wins gets to fly their teams flag on the others house for a week. Green is going to look good on his house!
Nice, I hope you go shit on his lawn tonight to show him you mean business!

[pbmax]

Burnett - hamstring - DNP - Questionable
Bush - lack of ball finding skills - Probable
Brad Jones - hammy - Questionable
Hayward - hammy - Out

[denverYooper]

Burnett - hamstring - DNP - Questionable
Bush - lack of ball finding skills - Probable
Brad Jones - hammy - Questionable
Hayward - hammy - Out

Damn hammies.

[Bossman641]

Burnett - hamstring - DNP - Questionable
Bush - lack of ball finding skills - Probable
Brad Jones - hammy - Questionable
Hayward - hammy - Out

W T F

[Fritz]

Burnett - hamstring - DNP - Questionable
Bush - lack of ball finding skills - Probable
Brad Jones - hammy - Questionable
Hayward - hammy - Out

Good God, it never does end, does it?

Did San Fran list any starters as questionable?

What the hell is it with this team that they seem to suffer more injuries than nearly everyone they play??

[pbmax]

SF
Nnamdi Asomugha CB Collarbone Limited Participation in Practice Questionable
LaMichael James RB Knee Did Not Participate In Practice Questionable

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2013/09/06/49ers-injury-report-doesnt-tell-the-whole-story/

Patrick Willis has a broken hand but seems expected to play after missing the preseason. DL Demarcus Dobbs is on a two week suspension.

The story linked above glosses over the presence of Bulaga on IR but does point out that San Fran has lost several players to PUP and IR.

09/03/13 WR Brandon Carswell Knee IR
09/03/13 RB Alex Debniak Achilles IR
09/03/13 LB Darius Fleming Knee IR
08/28/13 WR Michael Crabtree PUP
08/28/13 WR Mario Manningham PUP
08/27/13 DB Chris Culliver Knee IR
08/27/13 DL Lawrence Okoye Knee IR

[pbmax]

Come on Harbaugh meltdown!

ProFootballTalk ‏@ProFootballTalk 1m
NFL confirms: Read-option quarterbacks can be hit like runners http://wp.me/p14QSB-9gmG

Well, its not "I want CAKE!!" but its still fun to see him perturbed that people don't agree with him.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/san-francisco-49ers/0ap2000000239466/Harbaugh-There-s-still-a-gray-area

[Fritz]

SF
Nnamdi Asomugha CB Collarbone Limited Participation in Practice Questionable
LaMichael James RB Knee Did Not Participate In Practice Questionable

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2013/09/06/49ers-injury-report-doesnt-tell-the-whole-story/

Patrick Willis has a broken hand but seems expected to play after missing the preseason. DL Demarcus Dobbs is on a two week suspension.

The story linked above glosses over the presence of Bulaga on IR but does point out that San Fran has lost several players to PUP and IR.

09/03/13 WR Brandon Carswell Knee IR
09/03/13 RB Alex Debniak Achilles IR
09/03/13 LB Darius Fleming Knee IR
08/28/13 WR Michael Crabtree PUP
08/28/13 WR Mario Manningham PUP
08/27/13 DB Chris Culliver Knee IR
08/27/13 DL Lawrence Okoye Knee IR




Thanks, man. I feel better now.

[King Friday]

They won't throw for 7 TDs against us...so at least we've got that going for us, which is nice.

[Fritz]

I hope SF's injuries at the corner spot don't lure MM into abandoning any pretense of running the ball.

[bobblehead]

I hope SF's injuries at the corner spot don't lure MM into abandoning any pretense of running the ball.

The weakness has now been identified. The strength however is the front 7. Ergo, no need to run it more than 8 times...none in the second half once we are behind by 3.

[Patler]

Regarding Casey Hayward:


This is starting to feel like one of those injuries that is going to hang on all year, or one they will play around with for a month or two, before pulling the plug on his season.


Return IR!



This is starting to feel like one of those injuries that is going to hang on all year, or one they will play around with for a month or two, before pulling the plug on his season.
I certainly hope not. With an early season bye, you wonder if they will just hold Hayward out through week 4 and then bring him back.

Well, now they are saying he will be out at least a month:

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/hamstring-to-sideline-packers-casey-hayward-for-at-least-a-month-b9992255z1-222770451.html

The original injury was in workouts on his own in July before training camp. He was out 6 weeks, then lasted 10 plays before re-injuring it.

Return IR? He seems like a good candidate for it. It's not needed right now since they are healthy enough to drag him along as one of the inactives for the games, but when short-term injuries increase, they might need the roster spot. Too bad they can't do it retroactively.

[pittstang5]

Burnett - hamstring - DNP - Questionable
Bush - lack of ball finding skills - Probable
Brad Jones - hammy - Questionable
Hayward - hammy - Out

Questionable means they probably won't play and they probably shouldn't. Lord knows, five plays in to the game, both Jones and Burnett will have to leave the game because they reinsured it.

Ugh.

[Harlan Huckleby]

A lot of chat on packer radio shows is whether the refs are going to let the Packers hit Kaepernick.

When does a QB become a running back? I'm afraid the answer is never, and this is a growing advantage for running QBs.

[Fritz]

Questionable means they probably won't play and they probably shouldn't. Lord knows, five plays in to the game, both Jones and Burnett will have to leave the game because they reinsured it.

Ugh.


Just read a SF Chronicle article that says that Asha-whatsis will play.

Then I looked at the Niners' schedule. Arizona and St. Lou twice each, plus Tennessee and Jacksonville. They also play the NFC South, so they get NO, TB, Carolina, and whoever the other South team is. They also play Houston.

[pbmax]

A lot of chat on packer radio shows is whether the refs are going to let the Packers hit Kaepernick.

When does a QB become a running back? I'm afraid the answer is never, and this is a growing advantage for running QBs.

Worry less Blue Dog. Captain Underpants is still steaming at his disadvantage.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/06/jim-harbaugh-sees-problems-with-rules-on-read-option-quarterbacks/

[denverYooper]

If they can catch or contain Kaepernick, I'll be happy. Hits will be a bonus.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Worry less Blue Dog. Captain Underpants is still steaming at his disadvantage.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/06/jim-harbaugh-sees-problems-with-rules-on-read-option-quarterbacks/

Well, he's doing the Phil Jackson pregame routine.

Rules are rules. But what matters most is the emphasis that the refs bring. It'll be interesting to see how the game is called.

[Fritz]

Here's the blaring headline in the SF Chronicle:

"What’s behind the NFL’s failure to protect read-option quarterbacks like Colin Kaepernick?"

My god, the NFL has failed, and the game hasn't even been played yet. Looks like the local paper is helping Coach Hardbra all it can.

[Harlan Huckleby]

"What’s behind the NFL’s failure to protect read-option quarterbacks like Colin Kaepernick?"

That is rich. Obviously they are helping the cause, trying to draw attention to issue. It works, refs read the papers.

[Tony Oday]

Hit him every play. If we get 15 we get 15. AR will marchthe Pack down to a score on 80% of the drives and we will have one pick six.

Read option is like the Wildcat...over

[Fritz]

I'm not so sure of that, not yet. If the NFL decides to protect read option QB's more, then it will stay, though it would seem to be a very hard skill-set to find. One of the reasons Kaepernick is so good is that he's accurate when he passes.

[pbmax]

Hit him every play. If we get 15 we get 15. AR will marchthe Pack down to a score on 80% of the drives and we will have one pick six.

Read option is like the Wildcat...over

No, no, no. No more 15 yard penalties for first downs. Those drive me crazy. I cannot emphasize enough how much the Packers seem to give up in first downs on penalties. Its stupid.

34 penalties for first downs last year. Tied for 4th worst in League. Cleveland (38), Jacksonville (37) and the Jets (36) were Top 3. Packers tied with Minnesota, San Francisco and Baltimore.

Lowest number was Atlanta at 10, Giants were second lowest at 17. If Packers cut their number in half, they would have been in Top 6 in total first downs yielded. Might have helped.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/downs/sort/firstDowns/position/defense/year/2012

[Fritz]

I'm with you on that. As satisfying as a big hit is, it's not enough to offset the complete feeling of anger and helplessness that occurs when you subsequently see the official drop the yellow flag and you know the Packers just helped the opponent extend a drive - again.

I hope the defensive coaches are hammering the assignment-sure theme and not playing stupid. Do your job, don't try to be a hero, and let's see how this goes.

It doesn't sound very manly, but if it results in a "W" then it's a lot more manly than smashing the QB and playing rough but getting a loss.

[wist43]

Hit him, but be smart about it...

If we take care of business up the middle, and the LOS - which I don't think we will b/c of how Capers plays his front 6 - then you can designate the outside guys to babysitting Kapnermoron.

Even assuming we lose the LOS battle - a likely assumption - I still say commit the OLB to the QB. At least take one of those bad options away. I fully expect Mr. Spraypaintedhair to screw the pooch on this one - again. 2nd and 17, or 3rd and 8 are legit run downs for a team like the Niners - as soon as Capers goes to a 2-4 in those situations, we're in big trouble. Combine that with the fact that they're simply a more physcially dominant team on both lines - that will make for another long afternoon for the Packers.

McCarthy has made no changes to our run blocking scheme, and Capers has made no changes to how he plays his front six - why would any of you expect a different result from what we saw last year??

[mraynrand]

Capers has made no changes to how he plays his front six - why would any of you expect a different result from what we saw last year??

maybe he has changed what he'll do and you just haven't seen it yet. one more day to find out

[pbmax]

I will take the bet that the result this year is different than the playoff game. 14 point loss won't be repeated.

But on Offense, not sure how much will change over the course of the season: http://espnwisconsin.com/common/page.php?feed=2&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&id=9371&is_corp=1


McCarthy: Let me ask you something: How come no one ever asks about how many points we score?

ESPN Wisconsin: What do you mean? You led the league in scoring in 2011 and last year you were still fifth even though your kicker went through a period where he couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn.

McCarthy: I mean, isn’t it about scoring points?

ESPN Wisconsin: The run thing is a big deal because you have one of the best quarterbacks in the league and defenses have zero respect for your run game. Both of you have talked about all the two-shell defenses you saw and what that did to your big-play opportunities. Isn’t there cause-and-effect there, that they play their safeties back and don’t bite on play-action fakes because they think your run game stinks?

Should have sent bobble to do that interview instead of Wilde. :lol:

[wist43]

I will take the bet that the result this year is different than the playoff game. 14 point loss won't be repeated.

But on Offense, not sure how much will change over the course of the season: http://espnwisconsin.com/common/page.php?feed=2&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&id=9371&is_corp=1



Should have sent bobble to do that interview instead of Wilde. :lol:

I read that interview, and what I read was - "no changes, just do what we do better".

Maybe they can get away with that on offense - his pts scored argument (I disagree, but they do score pts, so maybe they can simply outscore a team like the Niners on a given day) - maybe Buddy Ryan needs to seek him out on the sideline and sock him one on the jaw??; defense is another matter.

I don't know how anyone can look at what Capers has thrown out there the last couple of years, and the eggs he's laid in playoff games in other years, and conclude that all they need to do is the same thing, only better.

Reading that inteview, it sounds like McCarthy believes his own bullshit, and isn't ready to admit that what they are doing - especially on defense - is anywhere near good enough to compete with the tough, physical teams that have stomped his team in the past couple of years.

Sounds like MM needs a 12 step program - perhaps an intervention?? ;)

[Guiness]

Worry less Blue Dog. Captain Underpants is still steaming at his disadvantage.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/06/jim-harbaugh-sees-problems-with-rules-on-read-option-quarterbacks/

I came by here to post that. Harbaugh wants the QB protected with a 'strike zone' until he leaves the pocket, the same as he would be if he was dropping back to pass. I thought about that for 2 seconds, then decided it's ridiculous. If the QB is in a running posture, he is not defenseless and the defense should be allowed to hit him without having to inspect his hands to make sure he's got the ball. By the time K leaves the pocket he's in full stride.

[bobblehead]

Here's the blaring headline in the SF Chronicle:

"What’s behind the NFL’s failure to protect read-option quarterbacks like Colin Kaepernick?"

My god, the NFL has failed, and the game hasn't even been played yet. Looks like the local paper is helping Coach Hardbra all it can.

Clearly just another case of the man trying to keep the black QB's down.

[bobblehead]

I'm with you on that. As satisfying as a big hit is, it's not enough to offset the complete feeling of anger and helplessness that occurs when you subsequently see the official drop the yellow flag and you know the Packers just helped the opponent extend a drive - again.

I hope the defensive coaches are hammering the assignment-sure theme and not playing stupid. Do your job, don't try to be a hero, and let's see how this goes.

It doesn't sound very manly, but if it results in a "W" then it's a lot more manly than smashing the QB and playing rough but getting a loss.

Sort of like that hit on Russell Wilson's shoelace that extended a drive. QB's must be protected, even when running in the open field. The shoelace is below the knee, and QB's must be tackled within a 6" hitting zone. Flags must fly. Franchises must be protected....unless ARod is getting blasted in the earhole by Julius Peppers in the playoffs while standing in the pocket, that is cool.

[bobblehead]

I will take the bet that the result this year is different than the playoff game. 14 point loss won't be repeated.

But on Offense, not sure how much will change over the course of the season: http://espnwisconsin.com/common/page.php?feed=2&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&id=9371&is_corp=1



Should have sent bobble to do that interview instead of Wilde. :lol:

I would have asked him if he handicaps his defense by not running the ball and putting them immediately back on the field time and again. I would have asked why he hasn't fired Capers since his offense is so potent yet they fail to win games. Is there a lack of talent on D? and who is responsible for that? I would point out that a serviceable run game would do wonders to keep the D fresh. I would also point out that scoring is awesome, but scoring MORE THAN THE OTHER TEAM IS THE GOAL,

PS...Understand that I do agree that MM scores points and its on the D most of the time, a run game still does wonders for everyone involved.

EDIT: Also understand that we ran effectively for 35 minutes against SF and it was a tie game. Then we lined up empty backfield and had a couple 3 and outs and the game was over.

[pbmax]

I would have asked him if he handicaps his defense by not running the ball and putting them immediately back on the field time and again. I would have asked why he hasn't fired Capers since his offense is so potent yet they fail to win games. Is there a lack of talent on D? and who is responsible for that? I would point out that a serviceable run game would do wonders to keep the D fresh. I would also point out that scoring is awesome, but scoring MORE THAN THE OTHER TEAM IS THE GOAL,

PS...Understand that I do agree that MM scores points and its on the D most of the time, a run game still does wonders for everyone involved.

EDIT: Also understand that we ran effectively for 35 minutes against SF and it was a tie game. Then we lined up empty backfield and had a couple 3 and outs and the game was over.

The turnover helped.

[wist43]

Weaker teams find ways to lose.

Ross never should have been out there fielding that punt - yet MM would never admit that. Just as he will never admit that 12 yds rushing/gm is a problem, or that playing soft defense is an issue.

When presented with a relative question, he got defensive and said they score enough points. That's ego.

They're going to keep doing what they've been doing - only, seemingly according to MM, they're going to do it better. That is ego standing in the way of self scouting and honesty.

He really should read Sun Tzu's Art of War.

I expect this game will go very similar to our opening day loss last year.

[pbmax]

Weaker teams find ways to lose.

Ross never should have been out there fielding that punt - yet MM would never admit that. Just as he will never admit that 12 yds rushing/gm is a problem, or that playing soft defense is an issue.

When presented with a relative question, he got defensive and said they score enough points. That's ego.

They're going to keep doing what they've been doing - only, seemingly according to MM, they're going to do it better. That is ego standing in the way of self scouting and honesty.

He really should read Sun Tzu's Art of War.

I expect this game will go very similar to our opening day loss last year.

Any team that loses a game finds a way to lose a game. Its a tautology and reveals nothing. They are the 3rd winningest franchise over the last 10 years. Something works there.

Cobb had been injured as had Woodson. Cobb is loose with the ball. How many deep should your punt return position be?

[MadtownPacker]

At a birthday party. Bunch of shit 49er fans here. Then even fucked up the cake with a whiner logo.

[wist43]

Any team that loses a game finds a way to lose a game. Its a tautology and reveals nothing. They are the 3rd winningest franchise over the last 10 years. Something works there.

Cobb had been injured as had Woodson. Cobb is loose with the ball. How many deep should your punt return position be?

Not saying we're not a winning a team - I'm saying that we're a weaker team than the Niners, which I think is obvious to almost everyone.

[Rastak]

Hit him every play. If we get 15 we get 15. AR will marchthe Pack down to a score on 80% of the drives and we will have one pick six.

Read option is like the Wildcat...over


I think they could employ that same strategy, but you guys would be fucked. Hit Rodgers every play and take the 15 until he's out.

[Rastak]

I came by here to post that. Harbaugh wants the QB protected with a 'strike zone' until he leaves the pocket, the same as he would be if he was dropping back to pass. I thought about that for 2 seconds, then decided it's ridiculous. If the QB is in a running posture, he is not defenseless and the defense should be allowed to hit him without having to inspect his hands to make sure he's got the ball. By the time K leaves the pocket he's in full stride.


Rule says if he might have the ball you can blast him. He hands off and demonstrates he doesn't have the ball you can't. Same as play action. This isn't really new. If it's clear he doesn't have the ball then what justification do you have to drop him like he was a ball carrier?

[mraynrand]

Rule says if he might have the ball you can blast him. He hands off and demonstrates he doesn't have the ball you can't. Same as play action. This isn't really new. If it's clear he doesn't have the ball then what justification do you have to drop him like he was a ball carrier?

what if he's blocking?

[Rastak]

what if he's blocking?


Knock him on his ass.

[Patler]

They're going to keep doing what they've been doing - only, seemingly according to MM, they're going to do it better. That is ego standing in the way of self scouting and honesty.


That philosophy did, however, work pretty well for a GB coach in the '60s.

[mraynrand]

That philosophy did, however, work pretty well for a GB coach in the '69s.

'69s?

[Iron Mike]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlIq_kYuhI0

[Fritz]

Not saying we're not a winning a team - I'm saying that we're a weaker team than the Niners, which I think is obvious to almost everyone.

So if the Packers lose, it proves your point. If the Packers win, it's luck.

You just can't lose with that world view. Way to go.

[wist43]

So if the Packers lose, it proves your point. If the Packers win, it's luck.

You just can't lose with that world view. Way to go.

Believe it or not, I do think we can win - but it would take a Sun Tzu approach, as opposed to the definition of insanity, i.e. doing the same thing over and over again...

If we do the same things we did last year, we will produce the same result. Sometimes it's just not that complicated.

On offense we need to shorten up the passing game into the intermediate range, be patient, and take shots as we set them up for those shots. Incorporate power running plays into the game plan. It is possible MM will do the former, just about zero chance he will do the latter.

On defense - absolutely no 2-4; run a 3-4 mixed in with 4 down linemen. Zone the short stuff, and concentrate on Davis and Bolden. If we do those things we can hold them under 30pts and we would have a shot.

I don't expect any of those things to happen. What I do expect is a repeat of game 1 from last year. 30-22 sounds about right, maybe 34-17.

We know what SF is going to do - the questions are, how will MM and Mr. Spraypaintedhair respond?? I think they throw the same old shit out there.

[Fritz]

I agree with your assessment of the preferred offensive strategy. Too many times last year Rodgers passed up a wide-open short or intermediate running back/receiver to take a shot downfield. Sometimes I had to change my "Goddamn you Rodgers!" to "Way to go Rodgers" right in mid-sentence, but most of the time it didn't work. I'd like to see Rodgers throw at least a few more of those check-downs to wide open guys and let them run. But I don't fault MM for that; those are Rodgers' choices.

Defensively, I don't like the 2-down-lineman thing; I don't really even like the 3-4. But I have come to understand this is not because the 3-4 isn't good and somehow as a casual fan I know more than professional coaches; it's because I grew up in the 70's when people ran the 4-3 and so that's the look I'm used to. I also think that as fans we sometimes make too much of the manliness issue - this business of being tougher and rougher and all that. I'd go so far as to suggest that perhaps we fans are working out our own manliness issues when we fret that our teams aren't rough or tough or big enough. Maybe that's why the female fans seem less bothered by all that.

I mean really, can you argue that any of those guys is some kind of pussy? I doubt it. Sure, some of the corners who weigh 190 would rather not take on the 230 lb running back, or at least they'd rather not try to out-man them but would rather just get them down, but that's not necessarily being a puss. Besides, I think that many NFL corners would have this same attitude, not just Packer corners.

I have been convinced by the posters here that if the Packer defense - and I trust that Capers has done all the prep he can and is not just throwing "the same old shit out there" - executes and stays disciplined, it can slow the SF attack.

I watched parts of the Michigan/ND game last night. It looked to me that ND controlled the line of scrimmage, both offensively and defensively. Michigan running backs got nailed behind the LOS many times, and the ND QB often had plenty of time to throw.

But Michigan won, somehow. So while I love the idea of controlling the LOS, I think if you have better skill players and can at least get enough push on your lines to hang on, your team can still win without being the more dominating team on the LOS.

And since Crabtree is gone, and Gholston is gone, and Manningham is gone, maybe the Packers have an edge in some skill positions.

We'll see.

[pbmax]

The Packers have been running Power plays for a few years, though its as a changeup to the ZBS. Why they are running them is another question because that line is not exactly built for that except possibly Lang. Might be schematic, but I have never heard M3 or Campen address it.

[Fritz]

I sometimes wonder if the problems running go back to not being able to teach the scheme correctly.

That is, it's Campen's fault! Bring back Jagzodzsinski to coach the offensive linemen! So what if he's a horse's ass? I don't have to deal with him!

[wist43]

I agree with your assessment of the preferred offensive strategy. Too many times last year Rodgers passed up a wide-open short or intermediate running back/receiver to take a shot downfield. Sometimes I had to change my "Goddamn you Rodgers!" to "Way to go Rodgers" right in mid-sentence, but most of the time it didn't work. I'd like to see Rodgers throw at least a few more of those check-downs to wide open guys and let them run. But I don't fault MM for that; those are Rodgers' choices.

Defensively, I don't like the 2-down-lineman thing; I don't really even like the 3-4. But I have come to understand this is not because the 3-4 isn't good and somehow as a casual fan I know more than professional coaches; it's because I grew up in the 70's when people ran the 4-3 and so that's the look I'm used to. I also think that as fans we sometimes make too much of the manliness issue - this business of being tougher and rougher and all that. I'd go so far as to suggest that perhaps we fans are working out our own manliness issues when we fret that our teams aren't rough or tough or big enough. Maybe that's why the female fans seem less bothered by all that.

I mean really, can you argue that any of those guys is some kind of pussy? I doubt it. Sure, some of the corners who weigh 190 would rather not take on the 230 lb running back, or at least they'd rather not try to out-man them but would rather just get them down, but that's not necessarily being a puss. Besides, I think that many NFL corners would have this same attitude, not just Packer corners.

I have been convinced by the posters here that if the Packer defense - and I trust that Capers has done all the prep he can and is not just throwing "the same old shit out there" - executes and stays disciplined, it can slow the SF attack.

I watched parts of the Michigan/ND game last night. It looked to me that ND controlled the line of scrimmage, both offensively and defensively. Michigan running backs got nailed behind the LOS many times, and the ND QB often had plenty of time to throw.

But Michigan won, somehow. So while I love the idea of controlling the LOS, I think if you have better skill players and can at least get enough push on your lines to hang on, your team can still win without being the more dominating team on the LOS.

And since Crabtree is gone, and Gholston is gone, and Manningham is gone, maybe the Packers have an edge in some skill positions.

We'll see.

I think we do have better skill position players - I thought that last year as well.

The problem is that the disparity on the LOS is so wide, that it destroys our ability to be successful - moreso on defense.

McCarthy says he scores pts, and that's his defense for not running the ball successfully - perhaps, but it comes at a cost. We'd be better off winning a game 3-0, than losing a game 45-31. As far as I'm aware, MM isn't involved with the defense at all - he's only concerned with "scoring pts", he seems to be missing the big picture.

From reading the comments of the Packers brain trust, and from what I saw on the field in the preseason - I see nothing which would lead me to believe they've made the necessary adjustments to deal with a power team like the Niners.

I hope they got it figured out, but I really don't think so.

We'll find out in a few hours.

[pbmax]

I think Jags was Peter Principled into an OC position. His big qualifying skill was learning ZBS at the knee of Alex Gibbs in Atlanta with Reeves, Vick and company. He was the TE coach for a year and the OL coach for another year, so he and Gibbs had two years together. I am not sure Jags was qualified to teach it. Though, to be fair, he did have some OL experience in college.

[Fritz]

I think we do have better skill position players - I thought that last year as well.

The problem is that the disparity on the LOS is so wide, that it destroys our ability to be successful - moreso on defense.

McCarthy says he scores pts, and that's his defense for not running the ball successfully - perhaps, but it comes at a cost. We'd be better off winning a game 3-0, than losing a game 45-31. As far as I'm aware, MM isn't involved with the defense at all - he's only concerned with "scoring pts", he seems to be missing the big picture.

From reading the comments of the Packers brain trust, and from what I saw on the field in the preseason - I see nothing which would lead me to believe they've made the necessary adjustments to deal with a power team like the Niners.

I hope they got it figured out, but I really don't think so.

We'll find out in a few hours.


I don't know that it's that they haven't made adjustments. They just aren't going to be the adjustments you wanted them to make.