Zone coverage

[red]

missed assignments, wide open TE's and WR's running free all over the place, 4 guys covering a FB while three other guys left alone.

these were some of the horrible plays by the seconday and lb's yesterday

now, before you go saying, well we're young, it'll get better the more the guys play with each other (not in that kind of way, but that might be more productive and fun to watch), you need to realize that this has been a major problem for at least 3 years.

during the super bowl run we had problems with communication and guys running wide open over the middle of the field. it became a bigger problem last season, and now it looks like we failed to fix the problem this year

is it the players fault? well, most of the guys that were starting and playing yesterday were not on the team 2 years ago when we were having the exact same problems. so for me, that kind of rules out it being the players fault. unless we just keep drafting the stupidest players on the planet that are just not capable of learning the basics of the defense they are using, then maybe you could blame the players for being dumb but i think the blame would have to go on TT for drafting the dumb fucks in the first place

Is it the coaching? case in point, anquan bolden yesterday. time after time he ran wide open all over the field. and some point some coach has to tell someone to cover the fucking guy and stay on him, or adjust the scheme

or does the scheme just flat out suck? i can't understand a scheme that is designed to leave both sidelines open at all times and the whole area over the middle and deep open. its like we just focus on covering the hash marks near the LOS. the prevent defense where we are willing to give up 20 yards on 3rd and 21 without a fight is also pretty shitty IMO, this is where field position could be improved

[pbmax]

I will say this in general about this 3-4 defense. Fans in of the Steelers have been screaming for years about completions over the middle. Even with zone more commonplace in Pittsburgh, it is the one area of vulnerability in this defense. Especially true if you, as the Packers did yesterday and the Steelers often do, play a single safety high. The difference is that while in Pittsburgh Ryan Clark will be looking to knock your head off your neck, the Packers have not had a threatening presence since Collins. Even then, the threat was to lose possession rather than your head.

[Joemailman]

missed assignments, wide open TE's and WR's running free all over the place, 4 guys covering a FB while three other guys left alone.

these were some of the horrible plays by the seconday and lb's yesterday

now, before you go saying, well we're young, it'll get better the more the guys play with each other (not in that kind of way, but that might be more productive and fun to watch), you need to realize that this has been a major problem for at least 3 years.

during the super bowl run we had problems with communication and guys running wide open over the middle of the field. it became a bigger problem last season, and now it looks like we failed to fix the problem this year

is it the players fault? well, most of the guys that were starting and playing yesterday were not on the team 2 years ago when we were having the exact same problems. so for me, that kind of rules out it being the players fault. unless we just keep drafting the stupidest players on the planet that are just not capable of learning the basics of the defense they are using, then maybe you could blame the players for being dumb but i think the blame would have to go on TT for drafting the dumb fucks in the first place

Is it the coaching? case in point, anquan bolden yesterday. time after time he ran wide open all over the field. and some point some coach has to tell someone to cover the fucking guy and stay on him, or adjust the scheme

or does the scheme just flat out suck? i can't understand a scheme that is designed to leave both sidelines open at all times and the whole area over the middle and deep open. its like we just focus on covering the hash marks near the LOS. the prevent defense where we are willing to give up 20 yards on 3rd and 21 without a fight is also pretty shitty IMO, this is where field position could be improved

In the Super Bowl run, pass defense was the teams strength. 5th in yards, gave up 16 TD and had 24 INT's. It was bad in 2011, and better but not great in 2012. Bottom line there is a world of difference between Nick Collins running the secondary and Jennings/McMillian running it. I'm hoping and thinking things will get better when Burnett and Hayward are back. I'd also like for Hyde to start getting reps at Safety in practice.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I'd also like for Hyde to start getting reps at Safety in practice.

From what I saw in preseason ...... I doubt he is an upgrade at safety. But I suppose he is no worse than what we saw yesterday.

Hyde is a good tackler. I just saw receivers juke him and run away in the preseason.

I think Hyde should have a modest role this season, use him as a blitzer here and there. With his lack of speed he needs to be near perfect in coverage decisions.

[Teamcheez1]

The 49ers gave up 322 yards passing yesterday. I thought the offense was a little off yesterday. What would you be saying about their defense if Rodgers had thrown for 400+ yards? The 49ers suck?

We have a lot of room for improvement, but we played a good team yesterday with our 2 best players in the secondary out. Makes a big difference.

[red]

The 49ers gave up 322 yards passing yesterday. I thought the offense was a little off yesterday. What would you be saying about their defense if Rodgers had thrown for 400+ yards? The 49ers suck?

We have a lot of room for improvement, but we played a good team yesterday with our 2 best players in the secondary out. Makes a big difference.

yeah, because our defense has never given up huge yardage before, yesterday was just a freak event if you forget about the last 2 years

[red]

In the Super Bowl run, pass defense was the teams strength. 5th in yards, gave up 16 TD and had 24 INT's. It was bad in 2011, and better but not great in 2012. Bottom line there is a world of difference between Nick Collins running the secondary and Jennings/McMillian running it. I'm hoping and thinking things will get better when Burnett and Hayward are back. I'd also like for Hyde to start getting reps at Safety in practice.

its been 4 years since we wond the super bowl? damn, i had my years off.

you are right, i thought the super bowl run was 2 seasons ago, two seasons ago was when i first noticed us giving up a lot over the middle

[pittstang5]

The thing that pisses me off to no end is the fact that the Packers secondary was consistently burned and nothing was changed/fixed to stop it. Same thing happened last year against Reggie Wayne. These coaches are paid big bucks and it seems no one can adjust on the fly. You have to be prepared for A, B or C. Not just A.

[pbmax]

The thing that pisses me off to no end is the fact that the Packers secondary was consistently burned and nothing was changed/fixed to stop it. Same thing happened last year against Reggie Wayne. These coaches are paid big bucks and it seems no one can adjust on the fly. You have to be prepared for A, B or C. Not just A.

They did change up. They played both man and zone, some two deep and a lot of single safety. And they double Boldin, on the 4th and 2 catch and on his touchdown according to McCarthy's press conference.

At some point, a player is going to have to play better coverage no matter the call. Shields did, so did Williams until that 4th down play.

[pittstang5]

They did change up. They played both man and zone, some two deep and a lot of single safety. And they double Boldin, on the 4th and 2 catch and on his touchdown according to McCarthy's press conference.

At some point, a player is going to have to play better coverage no matter the call. Shields did, so did Williams until that 4th down play.

You know, as soon as I posted that, I then read that they did try to to change things up - at least that's what McCarthy said. I knew you'd be on here to correct me. Always have to be right, don't ya. :grin:

Whatever they "tried," didn't work. It just seems the coaching staff seems to too little too late when making adjustments. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. In case of the Packers, it's fool me seven or eight times, then shame on me.

[Patler]

I don't think it is possible to overstate how much the backfield misses Nick Collins. He would be at his prime right now, and even with the inevitable aging and departure of Woodson and the too early fade of Tramon Williams, I believe the loss of Collins is the biggest factor leading to the decline in pass defense since 2010. I was hoping to see Burnett start to fill the void this year, but now that is on hold.

I wish we would start to see more consistency out of Shields. I think he is capable of playing like Williams did in 2010, and I believe he did at the end of last season, but he still hasn't reached the same level of consistency and reliability that Williams was at before his injury.

[pbmax]

If I can't be right after the fact, then I am never going to get to be right at all :D

Seriously though, I am of two minds about their approach. Boldin played the role of Crabtree last year in that he was not simply lined up at X or Y, he moved around, went to the slot and in motion and got coverage from the nickel or dime CB several times. The doubles weren't consistently successful. But this approach will spring someone open a number of times in the game.

So the question is, if coverage can't hold him that long, how do you force Kap into a poorer throw without more pressure? Right now their philosophy is contain and if you sort through the wreckage, you see the signs that it was working. But no turnovers and not much pressure on Kap is too much for the defense to contain if your offense isn't limiting San Fran's possessions.

It was still not a complete game for the team and I think the O let the D down this time.

[Patler]

If I can't be right after the fact, then I am never going to get to be right at all :D

Seriously though, I am of two minds about their approach. Boldin played the role of Crabtree last year in that he was not simply lined up at X or Y, he moved around, went to the slot and in motion and got coverage from the nickel or dime CB several times. The doubles weren't consistently successful. But this approach will spring someone open a number of times in the game.

So the question is, if coverage can't hold him that long, how do you force Kap into a poorer throw without more pressure? Right now their philosophy is contain and if you sort through the wreckage, you see the signs that it was working. But no turnovers and not much pressure on Kap is too much for the defense to contain if your offense isn't limiting San Fran's possessions.

It was still not a complete game for the team and I think the O let the D down this time.

The damage would have been a heck of a lot less if they had simply tackled. I think they could have survived all the completions to Boldin if they would have put him on the ground when they got there.

[pbmax]

Haven't seen tape or read McGinn's take on the tape yet, but the results sure seem to suggest that the Packers leaned toward playing the run this time around and the pass defensed suffered. Easy conclusion to draw and it may not prove to be right.

However, along those lines, I was disappointed in the use of new OLB Mike Neal on defense. He was in nickel pass rush with Jones and played some OLB but not often with both Matthews and Perry on the field.

I thought Neal's presence on the field would allow them to be big while also playing some kind of nickel or at least keep the safeties back. Perhaps put Matthews deeper or in the middle somewhere. Neal and Perry at OLB is like having twin 4-3 DEs on the field. In a four or five man front, they should be able to hold the fort.

The one positive in pass defense was that unlike last year's run defense, it did not hemorrhage so badly that big plays put the game out of reach. But that is not saying much.

[pbmax]

The damage would have been a heck of a lot less if they had simply tackled. I think they could have survived all the completions to Boldin if they would have put him on the ground when they got there.

Yes. It wasn't quite 2011 bad, but it wasn't enough either.

[Pugger]

Putting up 28 points in 21 minutes (compared to 38 minutes for the Niners O) against that defense is no easy feat. We just didn't have the defensive horses to contain SF's offensive. That is one heck of a group they have assembled and not many teams out there will have an easy time of stopping them.

[Pugger]

Haven't seen tape or read McGinn's take on the tape yet, but the results sure seem to suggest that the Packers leaned toward playing the run this time around and the pass defensed suffered. Easy conclusion to draw and it may not prove to be right.

However, along those lines, I was disappointed in the use of new OLB Mike Neal on defense. He was in nickel pass rush with Jones and played some OLB but not often with both Matthews and Perry on the field.

I thought Neal's presence on the field would allow them to be big while also playing some kind of nickel or at least keep the safeties back. Perhaps put Matthews deeper or in the middle somewhere. Neal and Perry at OLB is like having twin 4-3 DEs on the field. In a four or five man front, they should be able to hold the fort.

The one positive in pass defense was that unlike last year's run defense, it did not hemorrhage so badly that big plays put the game out of reach. But that is not saying much.

Considering how terrible our pass O was and the fact we gave them a free TD on Lacy's fumble I would say we've come along way since last January. We lost by 6, not 14 like last time. It wasn't enough this time but let's see how things shake out in January if we are lucky enough to play them again.

[3irty1]

The years you're describing as our worst years for hemorrhaging yards up the middle was 2010 and 2011. Those years correspond perfectly with the years that Desmond Bishop and Charlie Peprah were playing on the same side of the same seam of the same Defense. Bishop was a baller but he also ran like a fat kid and Peprah was only marginally better.

Go look at the game again and you'll see its not like Boldin is just blowing past LB's, Safeties, and even Corners. He's exploding out of cuts, relying heavily on subtle pushoffs, leverage, and perfectly timed throws in order to magically get open at will. This is something savy vets excel at and we seem particularly slow to adjust to (see Reggie Wayne last year vs the Packers).

[run pMc]

Sam Shields is a good CB, but playing zone doesn't come naturally for him and he struggled. He wasn't the only one. I suspect this had a lot to do with the secondary losing the game -- play zone, but Boldin is a smart powerful vet who found soft spots in the zone, and he broke tackles the Packers should have made.

Had they cut Boldin's production by 25% they would have won. I'm thinking better coverage could have done that.

I don't think it will be 2011 bad -- the front 7 looks decent, and getting Burnett and Hayward should help. I have no idea if Banjo will get more snaps vs. WAS or if he can replace McMillian/Jennings...but better health should help. Not to pick on Jarrett Bush, but he should be a ST ace only. Hyde got picked on a little bit as a rookie but I think he'll come around by mid-season.

Yes, Nick Collins is still missed.

[pbmax]

A deep safety, or even two deep safeties are not a zone. Second play of the game, 2nd and significant yardage, Packers played man underneath and with the corners. Aikman noted this, it was the exact thing that caused some contain problems in the playoff game. That pay was stopped for four or so I think.

So before everyone starts blaming everyone on zone, be sure the plays you are talking about actually had a zone defense called. They mixed them up pretty good, but there was a lot of man.

[RashanGary]

A deep safety, or even two deep safeties are not a zone. Second play of the game, 2nd and significant yardage, Packers played man underneath and with the corners. Aikman noted this, it was the exact thing that caused some contain problems in the playoff game. That pay was stopped for four or so I think.

So before everyone starts blaming everyone on zone, be sure the plays you are talking about actually had a zone defense called. They mixed them up pretty good, but there was a lot of man.

Pb, it's kind of the same thing we're used to with this group of players though. Our guys can play good man defense, especially shields (who might be a great man defender.) They struggle in zone, especially shields (who may be a poor zone defender.)

They mixed it far more than they did at the end of last season, and that's a good sign. I have a feeling had Hayward been playing, we may have gotten an interception or a few more nice breakups. They were especially effective over the middle of the field with Boldin.

I thought we played better zone than in the past. Kaepernick made good throws all game, very few misthrows if any. We just played a really great team and I think a great QB. There's room for improvement. I hope this is the season we see it. I like that they mixed coverages more. i liked that our best two inside DB's are coming back. We'll just have to see how it all comes together. As it stands right now, we can hang in any game and win any game with a break or two. It would be nice to develop an identity though, something we can hang our hat on like the 8man box defense we played in 2010 with Collins alone in the deep middle.

[swede]

Pb, it's kind of the same thing we're used to with this group of players though. Our guys can play good man defense, especially shields (who might be a great man defender.) They struggle in zone, especially shields (who may be a poor zone defender.)

They mixed it far more than they did at the end of last season, and that's a good sign. I have a feeling had Hayward been playing, we may have gotten an interception or a few more nice breakups. They were especially effective over the middle of the field with Boldin.

I remember a throw to Boldin with three defensive backs in the area but turned away from the LOS. It was pickable, had anyone been playing the ball.

[pbmax]

Put this in the Redskins discussion thread but also thought it belonged in a 49ers review thread.


How To Stop The Read Option: Eight Man Front, Cover 3 Backend


http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/paisans_2006/Niners2013Opener.png

[pbmax]

Smart Football ‏@smartfootball 1h
How the game changes: Whenever SF got into a pistol set Packers checked to a run-focused front/coverage. Shotgun used to mean pass only

[Maxie the Taxi]

Question: If you're going to play an 8-man front, why not occasionally blitz all 8 men? Sure, you'd lose containment and risk a big run. But isn't that preferable than having all 8 always containing the QB and thereby allowing the QB all day to throw?

[Upnorth]

Question: If you're going to play an 8-man front, why not occasionally blitz all 8 men? Sure, you'd lose containment and risk a big run. But isn't that preferable than having all 8 always containing the QB and thereby allowing the QB all day to throw?

To much oppertunity on screens pitches and outs to turn into big big gains.

[Maxie the Taxi]

To much oppertunity on screens pitches and outs to turn into big big gains.

True, but there is also the chance that the screen would be disrupted before the QB could get the ball off. Plus, the odds of a sack or a turnover go up by a lot. Plus, the offense would have to anticipate an all-8 blitz and call the screen in advance. If the D doesn't blitz all 8 all the time, it has the advantage of forcing the action, forcing the offense to guess. Sure, every now the D might be gashed with a well-timed screen, but the alternative is too have the QB know all 8 men are going to contain on every play.

[pbmax]

That might be a focus next time but the focus this time was run d.

Need to limit possessions and force a TO. A running attack or short passing game that limits the 3 and outs would be ok too.

I think you could run the above D with the SS in more of a midway position. Robber maybe.

If you are getting passed on in that D, I would also like to see Hawk out, Neal in and Matthew in the middle.