Watching AJ Hawk pass rush is painful

[mraynrand]

Seriously painful. AJ Hawk rushes the passer worse than Starks runs the football: Lowers his shoulder, looks for contact, stays high, shows little twist or 'elusiveness.' I'm thinking the coaching strategy at this point when Hawk rushes is: "Hawk, engage a blocker and maybe someone else will get near the QB." I guess at least the guy tackles well.

[pbmax]

Seriously painful. AJ Hawk rushes the passer worse than Starks runs the football: Lowers his shoulder, looks for contact, stays high, shows little twist or 'elusiveness.' I'm thinking the coaching strategy at this point when Hawk rushes is: "Hawk, engage a blocker and maybe someone else will get near the QB." I guess at least the guy tackles well.

They have one blitz, the cross blitz, that is exactly that strategy. His job was to tie up the center/RB and let Bishop get a free path to the QB.

[Upnorth]

Funny, I thought Hawk played a good game for his role on Sunday. He made sure tackles, covered well and controled the flow of the ball in the run game. Hawk is not a stats guy, nor is he dominate, but he plays his roll well. When I read Mcginns game summary where he rates each position, for the linebackers he commented that Hawk did little and I immediatley thought less of his analysis. That weekly feature I have always, and still do, enjoy but it was like he was in the bathroom for half the defensive snaps if he though Hawk did nothing.

[CaptainKickass]

.

Jeezus Motherfucking Hank Williams Jr the 3RD Titty fucking Christ on crutch & then eventually on a seat in a Hoverround!

I thought I was done posting but you have just summoned another edition of:


"The Grammar Police"

http://digitaldmx.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/grammar-police-uqu.jpg

.

Infraction x2


Hawk is not a stats guy, nor is he dominate, but he plays his roll well.


Correction x2



Hawk is not a stats guy, nor is he dominant, but he plays his role well.
.

Kickass Commentary:

Dominant vs Dominate is one of my pet peeves and is nearly forgivable. But "plays his roll well"? What the fuck?

I mean, is A.J. Hawk out there on the field with a homemade buttermilk biscuit, talking to it like Tom Hanks talked to Wilson the Volleyball, then throwing it in a defenders face to somehow help him make a tackle?

?

References:

Dominant - ˈdämənənt/ adjective:

1.most important, powerful, or influential.
Usage: "they are now in an even more dominant position in the market"

Dominate - ˈdäməˌnāt/ verb

1. To control, govern, or rule by superior authority or power.
Usage: "Successful leaders dominate events rather than react to them."

Roll

verb: roll; 3rd person present: rolls; past tense: rolled; 
1.move or cause to move in a particular direction by turning over and over
Usage: "the car rolled down into a ditch"

Role

noun: role; plural noun: roles;

1.an actor's part in a play, movie, etc..
Usage: "Dietrich's role as a wife in war-torn Paris"


You may now resume your normal posting activities.




http://www.grammarics.com/wp-content/uploads/Ancient-Grammar-Police.jpg

[mraynrand]

They have one blitz, the cross blitz, that is exactly that strategy. His job was to tie up the center/RB and let Bishop get a free path to the QB.

Bishop? I didn't see him make a tackle all day.

[mraynrand]

They have one blitz, the cross blitz, that is exactly that strategy. His job was to tie up the center/RB and let Bishop get a free path to the QB.

seriously though - if Hawk is routinely occupying two people on a cross blitz, I'll eat Snake's undershorts.

[swede]

Kickass!

Stop being a no-it-all. Substitution of "dominate" for "dominant" is a Finley related meme.

Just role with it.

[pbmax]

seriously though - if Hawk is routinely occupying two people on a cross blitz, I'll eat Snake's undershorts.

That's one of the problems with the cross blitz. Center takes AJ and RB takes the guy he KNOWS is coming. You need to be Mike Tice, Mike Martz or Bruce "Mike" Arians not to know its coming.

I have seen the middle blitz but haven't seen Jones doing it. Might simply have missed him. Per usual, its not getting home. Pick and JollyRaji are getting pretty good power rushes though single blocked.

[Upnorth]

They're their capt'n know knee'd two over react.

[mraynrand]

Kickass!

Stop being a no-it-all. Substitution of "dominate" for "dominant" is a Finley related meme.

Just role with it.


your just trying to get a ryes out of hymn.

[red]

hawk doesn't make big plays, but he always seems to be where he needs to be, and he's one of the few guys on defense that i don't have to worry about totally fucking things up

[mraynrand]

hawk doesn't make big plays, but he always seems to be where he needs to be, and he's one of the few guys on defense that i don't have to worry about totally fucking things up

I'll accept that so long as you agree he doesn't need to be near the QB.

[red]

I'll accept that so long as you agree he doesn't need to be near the QB.

yup, his pass rush is worthless

[run pMc]

...uh oh...get ready for more bold-faced swearing in 3...2...1...

[Maxie the Taxi]

Hawk has more career sacks than Lance Briggs...just sayin.

[mraynrand]

Hawk has more career sacks than Lance Briggs...just sayin.

Sure, sure, but how many times was Lance being blocked by a center AND a running back, answer me THAT!!!

[George Cumby]

Hawk has more career sacks than Lance Briggs...just sayin.

Are those the fax? I kneed to no.

[CaptainKickass]

Kickass! Stop being a no-it-all. Substitution of "dominate" for "dominant" is a Finley related meme. Just role with it.


They're their capt'n know knee'd two over react.


your just trying to get a ryes out of hymn.


Are those the fax? I kneed to no.


Eye knew eye kood cownt awn yoo awl two nawt cee thee hewmor inn migh kahntext.

[SnakeLH2006]

To title of thread....yep. I thought the same. AJ is overpaid about by 10x. He'd be a star by in the 1950-1960's. Nowadays he's best as a backup. He's smart, but his Ohio State "skills" NEVER materialized..but his paycheck sure did.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Sure, sure, but how many times was Lance being blocked by a center AND a running back, answer me THAT!!!

I wish I could answer that, but they don't keep stats on it.

Seriously, am I the only one here who is going to defend Hawk?

First of all, you're right that Hawk is no pass rusher. That's why they got Matthews and drafted Perry and converted Neal. Hawk's job is to be steady, run the defense and hold things together when the sledding gets tough which he does.

You want to know Hawk's value to the team? Read this: http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/eight-years-aj-hawk-still-here-b9986572z1-222025131.html

Ryan Pickett says any criticism of Hawk is "crazy." Pickett says Hawk is in so "much control of the defense" having someone else in there would be like "changing quarterbacks."

And this:

One player who tried reaching this "quarterback" level understands, too. Since-cut linebacker Terrell Manning learned the defense through the same prism this summer. He says the Packers depend on Hawk matching wits with a quarterback, swapping disguised looks before each snap.

"Whenever people are critical of A.J., I sit back and laugh," Manning said. "I hate to say it, but they don't know what they're talking about."

Hawk is smart and durable. He's played every game but two in his eight-year career. How many other Packers can say that?

And all the whining here about "hammies" doesn't apply to Hawk cause he ain't got any.

[pbmax]

Criticism of Hawk is centered around two facts:

He is essentially a 2 down LB. He is not a tire fire on third down, but not close to a playmaker on it. Either in coverage or pass rush.

The other is draft status. The bar for him will always be higher, probably until he retires a Packer. :)

I do buy that fans don't get what he means to the team in terms of calls, but that effect has been mitigated by the fact that when he went out, the D hasn't slipped noticeably. It would probably help if he got hurt when they were playing good rather than terrible like in 2011. There is also the fact that saying you are calm and rational and can get everyone lined up sounds like faint praise.

[Upnorth]

I wish I could answer that, but they don't keep stats on it.

Seriously, am I the only one here who is going to defend Hawk?

First of all, you're right that Hawk is no pass rusher. That's why they got Matthews and drafted Perry and converted Neal. Hawk's job is to be steady, run the defense and hold things together when the sledding gets tough which he does.

You want to know Hawk's value to the team? Read this: http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/eight-years-aj-hawk-still-here-b9986572z1-222025131.html

Ryan Pickett says any criticism of Hawk is "crazy." Pickett says Hawk is in so "much control of the defense" having someone else in there would be like "changing quarterbacks."

And this:


Hawk is smart and durable. He's played every game but two in his eight-year career. How many other Packers can say that?

And all the whining here about "hammies" doesn't apply to Hawk cause he ain't got any.

Hawk is probably our best tackler, solid in contain, and smart. I like him, but statheads will never see his value. Q

[Maxie the Taxi]

Criticism of Hawk is centered around two facts:

He is essentially a 2 down LB. He is not a tire fire on third down, but not close to a playmaker on it. Either in coverage or pass rush.

The other is draft status. The bar for him will always be higher, probably until he retires a Packer. :)

I do buy that fans don't get what he means to the team in terms of calls, but that effect has been mitigated by the fact that when he went out, the D hasn't slipped noticeably. It would probably help if he got hurt when they were playing good rather than terrible like in 2011. There is also the fact that saying you are calm and rational and can get everyone lined up sounds like faint praise.

That's basically what Dunne says in his article. The draft status thing hurts most. Fans were expecting a Claymaker but what they got was a Steady Eddy. I think they undervalue Hawk's durability. I am probably going to regret saying this, but he's the Favre of the defense in terms of durability. Just pencil him in.

Also, what defines a "big play" these days. I think this qualifies...


http://www.packers.com/media-center/videos/All-22-view-AJ-Hawk-breaks-up-a-pass/8e63d89c-b9bb-456c-9a75-a47e56dc2469

[CaptainKickass]

Wait a minute -

I like Hawk. But now I'm confused.

This stuff all says that he's expected to match wits with opposing QB's and react and call out plays/formations and stuff as if he were the defensive QB.

But isn't that the Safety's job? Collins, now Burnett or I guess McMillan and/or Jennings?

I need a refreshed on the mechanics of the GB Defense.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Wait a minute -

I like Hawk. But now I'm confused.

This stuff all says that he's expected to match wits with opposing QB's and react and call out plays/formations and stuff as if he were the defensive QB.

But isn't that the Safety's job? Collins, now Burnett or I guess McMillan and/or Jennings?

I need a refreshed on the mechanics of the GB Defense.

No, no, no. The article says Hawk listens to the Safety chatter then adjusts...or something. He also watches which direction the opposition's shoes are pointed...or something.

You're right. I need a refresher too. LOL

[red]

That's basically what Dunne says in his article. The draft status thing hurts most. Fans were expecting a Claymaker but what they got was a Steady Eddy. I think they undervalue Hawk's durability. I am probably going to regret saying this, but he's the Favre of the defense in terms of durability. Just pencil him in.

Also, what defines a "big play" these days. I think this qualifies...


http://www.packers.com/media-center/videos/All-22-view-AJ-Hawk-breaks-up-a-pass/8e63d89c-b9bb-456c-9a75-a47e56dc2469

honestly, i think these days a big play is either a sack or an INT. if you aren't doing those two things people won't consider you a big play guy

[mraynrand]

The other is draft status. The bar for him will always be higher, probably until he retires a Packer. :)

Absolutely. If he had been picked in the 4th or 5th people would say "Hey that guy was great value. a decent starter on the cheap." How often do you get a top pick though? Hopefully never. But the Packers don't seem to do so well with picks above 15-20 or so. Buckley? (remarkably similar to Hawk - a decent corner/safety, but played like a mid round pick), Reynolds (BUST), Harrell (INJURED), Walker (MONEY), Raji (PROBABLY THE BEST, but has settled down into just decent)

[RashanGary]

I also get frustrated with Hawk, even more so when I was looking to him to be a playmaker. Since I gave up on that and he cut his salary, I'm feeling much happier with him tho.

I would have liked more with the 5th pick, but I appreciate Hawk for what he brings. He's not a very natural player, just little things like prying under a guy or finding a creative way to make something happen. But in a league where most players do have spatial creativity and rely on instincts, it's nice to have a guy who does it exactly as he's supposed to every time. If nothing else, it's an example for other players to follow. Most players don't need to be told to loosen up and play their game. Most players need to be told to hone it in for the most part, but let loose from time to time when everything makes sense to do it.

So much of defense depends on players knowing where each other are going to be. Hawks 100% accountability helps build trust. I think he makes the players around him better because they know where he's going to be and play with more confidence because of it.

As we transition into a team that mixes zone and man defense, having Hawk and Burnett in the middle (two guys who are very reliable) will help everyone else be more sure and comfortable with what they'er doing. I think he's a really nice piece for how our defense is growing. If we end up with really reliable/assignement sure corners and safeties, I'll start to appreciate him less, but for right now, in this puzzle, he's a really nice piece.

[Guiness]

It's pretty hard to hate on Hawk, even more so in light of the recent trade of Richardson. Not to mention look at what was on the board at the time. The rest of the top 10 was not great...Vernon Davis would have been nice, Whitner as well but he's not great and the Pack already had Collins who'd started from game 1. The next player player taken after Hawk that would be awful nice is Ngata, but no one had him ranked anywhere near where the Pack was drafting. So you could argue there was one player in consideration that would have been a much better choice.

They did as well as they could with the pick.

[Maxie the Taxi]

It's pretty hard to hate on Hawk, even more so in light of the recent trade of Richardson. Not to mention look at what was on the board at the time. The rest of the top 10 was not great...Vernon Davis would have been nice, Whitner as well but he's not great and the Pack already had Collins who'd started from game 1. The next player player taken after Hawk that would be awful nice is Ngata, but no one had him ranked anywhere near where the Pack was drafting. So you could argue there was one player in consideration that would have been a much better choice.

They did as well as they could with the pick.

As I recall there was a huge debate back then (and on this board) between those who wanted to draft Hawk and those who were high on Mario Williams. Hawk was the consensus favorite. The debate ended when Houston with its number one pick offered Williams a huge contract.

If you go back and read the comments of those favoring Hawk, it was like he was some kind of god. It's definitely unfair to Hawk to saddle him with those kind of over-hyped expectations. He is what he is and many of us saw that at the time. When Mario became unavailable, I was glad we drafted him. We could have done a lot worse.

[Guiness]

As I recall there was a huge debate back then (and on this board) between those who wanted to draft Hawk and those who were high on Mario Williams. Hawk was the consensus favorite. The debate ended when Houston with its number one pick offered Williams a huge contract.

If you go back and read the comments of those favoring Hawk, it was like he was some kind of god. It's definitely unfair to Hawk to saddle him with those kind of over-hyped expectations. He is what he is and many of us saw that at the time. When Mario became unavailable, I was glad we drafted him. We could have done a lot worse.

Yes, but I also remember some saying that the Pack got the third best LB in the draft, after both Sims and Greenway.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Yes, but I also remember some saying that the Pack got the third best LB in the draft, after both Sims and Greenway.

You know it all goes to show that judging how college talent will translate into the NFL is far from an exact science. So much of it is subjective. Look at Aaron Rodgers. All the "experts" said he was a system QB. No one -- probably not even TT -- projected him as the best QB in the league.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Yes, but I also remember some saying that the Pack got the third best LB in the draft, after both Sims and Greenway.

Which has proven to not be the case with those 2. Hawk is better than both. Just not as awesome as many hoped he would be.

[mraynrand]

As I recall there was a huge debate back then (and on this board) between those who wanted to draft Hawk and those who were high on Mario Williams.

I was hot for VD

[hoosier]

I was hot for VD

Knowing what you know now, who would you rather have for the next few years, Vernon Davis or Finley? Davis is more reliable and less brittle, but that aside I do not think there is much difference between them in terms of productivity and potential. Hawk was the safe choice, Davis was scary in a drug-resistant kind of way--too much potential to turn into a Mike Mamula or a diva.

[mraynrand]

Knowing what you know now, who would you rather have for the next few years, Vernon Davis or Finley? Davis is more reliable and less brittle, but that aside I do not think there is much difference between them in terms of productivity and potential. Hawk was the safe choice, Davis was scary in a drug-resistant kind of way--too much potential to turn into a Mike Mamula or a diva.

Honestly, I'm glad we have Finley. But in 2006, I thought the situation on offense and with offensive weapons was dire. But if you wanted to go defense, shoulda traded down and gone with Ngata and/or Hali. Kinda 20/20 hindsight, but there were those who really liked Ngata, including Scoops McGinn.

[Pugger]

The biggest reason folks rag on Hawk is because of where he was taken. We were all hoping he'd be the second coming of Brian Urlacher. Had he been a late 1st/early 2nd folks this isn't a thread. We didn't get our dynamic LBer until 2009.

[Smidgeon]

Also that, but remember that Hawk's combine workout numbers were off the chart. He should have been lightning in a bottle with that athleticism. Has he lost that or did he never really have it?

[mraynrand]

Also that, but remember that Hawk's combine workout numbers were off the chart. He should have been lightning in a bottle with that athleticism. Has he lost that or did he never really have it?

more like a lightning bug in a bottle

http://jillsbooks.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/sam-and-the-firefly-illustration-eastman1.jpg

[MJZiggy]

Knowing what you know now, who would you rather have for the next few years, Vernon Davis or Finley? Davis is more reliable and less brittle, but that aside I do not think there is much difference between them in terms of productivity and potential. Hawk was the safe choice, Davis was scary in a drug-resistant kind of way--too much potential to turn into a Mike Mamula or a diva.
He also REALLY did not want to come to Green Bay and I'm sure he made that clear before the draft. The big baby literally cried tears of joy when we did not draft him and I'm sure that attitude helped in the decisionmaking...

[hoosier]

He also REALLY did not want to come to Green Bay and I'm sure he made that clear before the draft. The big baby literally cried tears of joy when we did not draft him and I'm sure that attitude helped in the decisionmaking...

That is what I was thinking of with the diva comment. Who knows how VD came across during his contact with the Packers during the combine, but he probably did not send "pick me!" signals.

[MJZiggy]

That is what I was thinking of with the diva comment. Who knows how VD came across during his contact with the Packers during the combine, but he probably did not send "pick me!" signals.
It wouldn't surprise me if he told them that he wouldn't play and would try to force a trade...that's pure speculation, though.

[SnakeLH2006]

As I recall there was a huge debate back then (and on this board) between those who wanted to draft Hawk and those who were high on Mario Williams. Hawk was the consensus favorite. The debate ended when Houston with its number one pick offered Williams a huge contract.

If you go back and read the comments of those favoring Hawk, it was like he was some kind of god. It's definitely unfair to Hawk to saddle him with those kind of over-hyped expectations. He is what he is and many of us saw that at the time. When Mario became unavailable, I was glad we drafted him. We could have done a lot worse.

Snake wanted Bush since there was chatter they could trade up for for him or Mario Williams but that is moot. I don't hate Hawk..he has some value and is dependable and smart and WAAAAYYYYYY overachieved with a hottie wife considering he looks like Arnold Schwarzenegger's half-breed cousin. So for this Snake will give him props.

As far as his playmaking/passrushing ability..it's funny..I was chilling at my black..yes black buddy's house during the draft (who is cool as shit and is a money-making legit school teacher representative) and he said out the blue fuck AJ Hawk...he's overhyped cuz he's white. I called bullshit. I was wrong. He has toughness, savvy, and smarts, but absolutely NO playmaking or gamechanging skills.

For a 4th round pick..he'd be ok...then again even with a paycut...he should be making no more than $2million yearly. In the NFL you get paid on gamechanging plays...if you can sack a qb, pass the lights out, catch a ton of balls, or pick the ball out the air...you get paid...AJ can't do any of those things and held out hope for about 3-4 years he could...he never could. He'd be a good coach, but a game manager that plays most days is ok, but not worth much money.

[Smeefers]

It wouldn't surprise me if he told them that he wouldn't play and would try to force a trade...that's pure speculation, though.

I thought it was Bush who wouldn't play for GB

[Smeefers]

Honestly, I'm glad we have Finley. But in 2006, I thought the situation on offense and with offensive weapons was dire. But if you wanted to go defense, shoulda traded down and gone with Ngata and/or Hali. Kinda 20/20 hindsight, but there were those who really liked Ngata, including Scoops McGinn.

Kinda 20/20? Sure, its easy to look back and say "man, we should of traded back for two of the best players in the NFL!" I'm sure there's guys out there who thought some of the drafts busts would do great. Revisionist history man. Lets face it, we got the solid, not great guy that everyone said he would be.

[mraynrand]

Kinda 20/20? Sure, its easy to look back and say "man, we should of traded back for two of the best players in the NFL!" I'm sure there's guys out there who thought some of the drafts busts would do great. Revisionist history man. Lets face it, we got the solid, not great guy that everyone said he would be.

McGinn wrote a long article that the Packers should have drafted Ngata straight up at 5. Many on this board also like Hali, and advocated trading down to get him and someone else. 20/20 hindsight is the lifeblood of internet fandom. Coulda, woulda, shoulda is fun - and anguishing! Packers very well coulda traded the #5 and a lateer pick and maybe drafted both Ngata AND Hali - imagine that!

[Maxie the Taxi]

Hawk recovered a fumble today. Does that count as a big play?

[pbmax]

Hawk recovered a fumble today. Does that count as a big play?

Fumble recoveries tend to be random events. Its better to cause one than to recover one. Still better to have it than not, but big play was strip.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Hawk recovered a fumble today. Does that count as a big play?

I want to ask this question again today. Hawk had 8 solo tackles, 2 assists, 3 sacks, 5 tackles for a loss, and 3 QB hurries. Do any of those count as big plays?

I'll answer my own question: Yes, yes, yes, yes and yes. Hawk had a career day. He stepped up. (And I also submit it wasn't painful reading his stats today. Unfortunately, I was unable to see the game, but the gamebook sizzled.)

[pbmax]

I want to ask this question again today. Hawk had 8 solo tackles, 2 assists, 3 sacks, 5 tackles for a loss, and 3 QB hurries. Do any of those count as big plays?

I'll answer my own question: Yes, yes, yes, yes and yes. Hawk had a career day. He stepped up. (And I also submit it wasn't painful reading his stats today. Unfortunately, I was unable to see the game, but the gamebook sizzled.)

You won't be getting contrary views this week Maxie. Hawk played a whale of a game. And the most remarkable part was the big plays you mentioned. He played so big that his two shakier plays probably won't even get a mention.

He had help in that the interior of the Packer D seemed to dominate the interior Ravens line. Regardless, he delivered.

[mraynrand]

Hawk had a good game. I'm glad he can sack a QB when unblocked. Some guys in the NFL can't do that.

[pbmax]

Hawk had a good game. I'm glad he can sack a QB when unblocked. Some guys in the NFL can't do that.

Formerly, including him. How many whiffs have we seen like that? There were even a couple today though it wasn't Hawk.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Hawk had a good game. I'm glad he can sack a QB when unblocked. Some guys in the NFL can't do that.

Sorry for the needle, Ayn. I couldn't resist! :wink:

[mraynrand]

Sorry for the needle, Ayn. I couldn't resist! :wink:

no apologies required. Hawk can play well. he still mostly sucks at pass rushing.

[run pMc]

I recall most expecting Bush, Williams, and Young to go before the Packers picked, and the hot debate over Hawk vs. Davis.
I also recall, early on, thinking TT had gotten the better of the two. Davis was getting sent off the field by Singletary and playing not so well. He turned that around and is playing up to his draft status. Hawk is trickier because he's been consistent and dependable and healthy (all necessary qualities) but he's lacked a lot of "wow" plays or game changing plays. I agree with others that, if he'd been drafted at the bottom of R1 (say, near where they took Perry) people would think he was a good pick. Top 10 picks are expected to be cornerstones. Some are, many aren't.

The expectations from that draft were almost impossibly high. Some people thought Reggie Bush was a near-bust because he wouldn't run between the tackles (until Miami).

I suppose we could be glad he didn't totally wash out a la Aaron Curry...or Vince Young.