More Banjo: Week 3 Aftermath (Pack v Bengals)

[pbmax]

I must have missed him during TV intros:

Wes Hodkiewicz ‏@WesHod 2m
Postgame chat starting soon. Chris Banjo said it was decided early in the week for him to start and see as much work as he did

[red]

really? i think i saw him one time today

[packer4life]

No news is good news on him.

[Packers4Glory]

I seen him on the field a lot. didn't screw up anything too bad which is a nice break from the usual safety play we've had this yr.

[pbmax]

An we continue to wonder why Finley doesn't solve the Cover 2 problem for the Packers:


Finley had just been saying at midweek that he liked the way the offense was using short drag routes with him because it meant he didn’t have to risk “going down the seam and getting my head knocked off.”

http://www.espnwisconsin.com/common/page.php?feed=2&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&id=9871&is_corp=1

Finley just isn't competitive in the middle of the field with his size advantage. He would be better served going straight up and grabbing the ball rather than trying to hand fight at ground level. He begins to fall and that leads him directly to the defender and a concussion.

[pbmax]

It was noted in the Game Day thread that the Packers should be running more screens, however they did run a few quick hitters, once to a back (Franklin I think) and a few more were WR screens. That produced an adjustment that would haunt the Packers:


Rookie left tackle David Bakhtiari has played well but made a crucial mistake on the Packers’ final play, a fourth-down incompletion that was tipped at the line of scrimmage by Michael Johnson when Bakhtiari failed to get him to the ground with a cut block. “I just didn't execute my football play the way it's supposed to be,” Bakhtiari said. “I cut him down really well when we started calling it, calling some of the cut plays. Then he started kind of reading it and on that last play he kept on going more inside and more inside and I wasn't able to get his hands down.”

Bach still needs to make that block. Sherman's offenses screened ALL the time and still got that guy's hands down.

http://www.espnwisconsin.com/common/page.php?feed=2&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&id=9871&is_corp=1

[denverYooper]

It was noted in the Game Day thread that the Packers should be running more screens, however they did run a few quick hitters, once to a back (Franklin I think) and a few more were WR screens. That produced an adjustment that would haunt the Packers:



Bach still needs to make that block. Sherman's offenses screened ALL the time and still got that guy's hands down.

http://www.espnwisconsin.com/common/page.php?feed=2&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&id=9871&is_corp=1

IMO, it's good that he's aware of it and owned it. Sounds like the kind of talk from someone who "will get that fixed".

[Pugger]

An we continue to wonder why Finley doesn't solve the Cover 2 problem for the Packers:



http://www.espnwisconsin.com/common/page.php?feed=2&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&id=9871&is_corp=1

Finley just isn't competitive in the middle of the field with his size advantage. He would be better served going straight up and grabbing the ball rather than trying to hand fight at ground level. He begins to fall and that leads him directly to the defender and a concussion.

You are blaming Finley for getting his concussion?

[pbmax]

You are blaming Finley for getting his concussion?

In a general sense, yes. He did not throw himself headfirst into someone's shoulder, but by losing his feet he put himself in a vulnerable position. When you need to make a play, move or other task in football, taking the initiative will put you in a better position more of the time than by half-heartedly waving at the opposition or the ball.

Finley had to shed the Mike LB who was grabbing him and that didn't help. But then he reached out with one arm to stop the ball and had to fall to keep that arm/hand around the ball. he never had it secured and therefore couldn't protect himself. If he had elevated, or perhaps better cut to his left, he could have gotten both hands on it. With two hands, he would be free to twist in midair to avoid the hit, if he cut left, he would be free to brace and deflect the hit.

Its not foolproof. But by keeping half his brain on the ball and half his brain on the hit, he made it worse for himself. He has to shrug loose of the Mike and get both hands free, then catch the ball and then get protected. The ball was in a good spot. a longer or more lofted throw would have put him in the lap of the safety.

[pbmax]

Lacy did not clear the concussion protocol: http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/injuries-take-heavy-toll-on-packers-b99103794z1-224811602.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter


McCarthy said that while Lacy was listed at having a 50% chance of playing against the Bengals, he was not able to pass all the concussion tests needed to clear him.

[pbmax]

Rodgers two INTs: http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/bengals-put-bite-on-aaron-rodgers-game-b99103788z1-224815092.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Throw to Cobb.

On the next series, Rodgers went deep to Randall Cobb on a first-down wheel route.

McCarthy said he wasn't sure "if the throw was far enough outside." Rodgers said the throw was on target but credited cornerback Hall for making the pick.

"That's my fault," said Cobb. "I've just got to make a play on the wheel route. If I don't, break it up."

Throw to Jones.

Rodgers wouldn't blame Jones for his first pick but the wide receiver never hesitated taking the rap. On third and 3, Jones was tentative on a slant and Newman sliced in front for the interception.

"I've got to cross the defender's face," said Jones. "I stopped on the route. I can never do that. I put the quarterback in a bad situation right there, giving him mixed reads."

[pbmax]

Wes Hodkiewicz ‏@WesHod 2h
Wrote about it in our notebook but Chris Banjo played all but two snaps against Cincy (54 total). McMillian with only 14 #Packers

[pbmax]

ESPN Stats & Info ‏@ESPNStatsInfo 2h
Aaron Rodgers: 5-17 as starting QB in games decided by 4 points or less

Here we go again. Also watch out for Rodgers record in 4th Quarter comebacks. Dalton got credit for one even though the go ahead score was a fumble return for TD.

[Pugger]

ESPN Stats & Info ‏@ESPNStatsInfo 2h
Aaron Rodgers: 5-17 as starting QB in games decided by 4 points or less

Here we go again. Also watch out for Rodgers record in 4th Quarter comebacks. Dalton got credit for one even though the go ahead score was a fumble return for TD.

That's why I don't put a lot of credence into this particular stat.

[pbmax]

Practice? Practice? You're talking about practice man?!

Wes Hodkiewicz ‏@WesHod 1h
An important stat given preseason RT @PFF_BryanHall: Jonathan Franklin with a clean sheet in 12 pass blocking snaps.

[pbmax]

Old Bob back at it. he presents the "Packers can't win close games angle" with NO context except to mention in passing they rarely get blown out and then delivers himself this conclusion:


But the Packers can only dream of a third straight division championship and the Super Bowl unless they start winning tight games.

All evidence of 2010 Super Bowl winners to the contrary, Bob knows what the real problem is. Play more close games and stop blowing people out.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/224772392.html

Best part is Raji delivering this quote:


““Particularly on the road you have to make the plays when you have to have them,” defensive end B.J. Raji said. “We didn’t play well enough to win.

I believe Winston Churchill said, ‘Sometimes the best isn’t good enough.’ You have to do what’s required.”

[pbmax]

Here we go: and its from one of my favorite sites (the guy writes for Football Outsiders and they provide ESPN with content that is not former players saying "In the National Football League you must pay attention to detail ...."

Why Aaron Rodgers Is Not Truly Great by Scott Kacsmar
http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9711636/nfl-why-aaron-rodgers-not-truly-great

Its an insider piece so you have to pay to read it. I hope someone can put this in the garbage where it belongs.

[denverYooper]

Here we go: and its from one of my favorite sites (the guy writes for Football Outsiders and they provide ESPN with content that is not former players saying "In the National Football League you must pay attention to detail ...."

Why Aaron Rodgers Is Not Truly Great by Scott Kacsmar
http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9711636/nfl-why-aaron-rodgers-not-truly-great

Its an insider piece so you have to pay to read it. I hope someone can put this in the garbage where it belongs.

Captain Comeback used to write for CHFF. IIRC, he was a poster on some football stat site who developed his 4th Quarter Comeback statistics in order to "prove" that Big Ben was better than Tom Brady and it has blossomed from there. I'm willing to bet that the thrust of the argument is Rodgers 4th quarter comeback/game winning drive record. His dataset is integrated in PFR (under the "QB credited with" criteria).

[denverYooper]

Definition of the 4th quarter comeback stat:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=3392


For it to be a 4th quarter comeback win, you must:

Win the game (no ties or losses)
Take the field with a 1--8 pt deficit (1--7 prior to 1994) and score as an offense (no fumble return TD to win the game)
It does not have to be the final winning score (hence, that applies to the number of game-winning drives)

So I'll be surprised if the article provides the kind of context you might be hoping for. I'd be more interested if they showed some other (QBR, rating, etc) data in those situations to back it up. I felt like Rodgers played a bit better on the last couple of drives than earlier in the game.

[Fritz]

Here we go: and its from one of my favorite sites (the guy writes for Football Outsiders and they provide ESPN with content that is not former players saying "In the National Football League you must pay attention to detail ...."

Why Aaron Rodgers Is Not Truly Great by Scott Kacsmar
http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9711636/nfl-why-aaron-rodgers-not-truly-great

Its an insider piece so you have to pay to read it. I hope someone can put this in the garbage where it belongs.


I have a friend who is a contrarian for the sake of being contrary, and he took this position a week or two ago. So I knew what was coming when I saw him this morning. I tried to wave him off, but he wanted to explain why Rodgers is not good in fourth quarter comebacks. Sigh.

I just think it's too difficult to pin down. As somebody posted above, Dalton apparently gets credit for leading his team to a comeback win, even though he had nothing to do with the winning score.

And what's a "comeback"? If your team is down seven in the third quarter, but your team wins, does that count? Or is it with six minutes left, or three? How many points? In McGinn's piece, IIRC, he used eight points down in one part, and six in another.

And what if Barclay had blocked his man all the way down? So Rodgers gets the blame for both batted balls? Does he get any credit if he or any QB throws a perfect pass for a winning TD but the receiver drops it?

It's ridiculous. Bottom line, Rodgers cannot complete a comeback, if you don't count the times he did.

[pbmax]

Yeah, that's the guy.

It's clear the Packer's are underperforming in close games, though the pick of 1-8 points is again suggestive of choosing the data that best fits your hypothesis (see previous and current claims about Rodgers in game 4 points or closer). So separating Rodgers from these results is as problematic as trying to determine how much credit should go to receivers versus the QB. And the defense factors in here.

Without diving deep there are a few mitigating factors:

1. 2008 season, his first starting season. He was 0-8 or something similar that year.
2. Passing game is maxed out. Elway used to make 4th Qtr comebacks routine because Reeves had to unshackle him from a mediocre running game and the scripted offense and let him throw and scramble most downs late. But it was nearly a different offense in the 4th quarter. Rodgers is running the 4th Qtr offense every quarter. If teams have figured them out, there is not a better backup offense.
3. Running game. Franklin's success was in part a testament to the respect the Bengals had for the Packer passing game. But that running game disappears in a lot of games under Rodgers. Sometimes its the production, sometimes its the playcaller.
4. Risk taking. The same thing that might get you a 20 point lead is not going to happen when you face a defense poised to stop the pass and ignore the run. This made no difference to Favre or Marino as they would still take a shot. Rodgers instead takes sacks. Those sacks avoid INTs but they also cost time. An incomplete, which most risky throws would produce, would stop the clock at no more cost of a down.
5. Mediocre teams, or teams with no defense tend to have the most comeback opportunities because the game is always close if the offense is at all functional. Packers have a high number of wins during his era, so those close losses are simply the natural result of a good team losing occasionally.
6. Pass Protection. Has been at its weakest as Rodgers has entered his prime. With marginal run game, he is more of a target late in games when behind.
7. McCarthy doesn't have a handle on closing a game out. he takes his foot off the brake. Phone booth offense is no way to run a game with 11:00 left. You saw both sides of this in the Redskins game.

[mraynrand]

I believe Winston Churchill said, ‘Sometimes the best isn’t good enough.’ You have to do what’s required.


deep. Still, I am reminded of LeRoy Butler filling his gas tank the week before a Bears game telling a fan at the station "We'll do our best to beat them" The fan: "I don't want you to do your best. I want you to win."

[mraynrand]

7. McCarthy doesn't have a handle on closing a game out. he takes his foot off the brake. Phone booth offense is no way to run a game with 11:00 left. You saw both sides of this in the Redskins game.

can I have a translation on this one

[pbmax]

deep. Still, I am reminded of LeRoy Butler filling his gas tank the week before a Bears game telling a fan at the station "We'll do our best to beat them" The fan: "I don't want you to do your best. I want you to win."

Its that kind of can do attitude that keeps the PED business moving right along. NASCAR as well.

[pbmax]

can I have a translation on this one

McCarthy has an offensive plan for what he calls "phone booth football" meaning everyone is in tight. A literal attempt to run out the clock (and stop said attempt). Its official practice terminology is the 4 minute offense, when you want first downs but need the clock to move or force the opponent to call TOs.

McCarthy has a tendency to get into his 4 minute offense around the 10 to 11 minute mark.

[pbmax]

McCarthy Monday Presser

- Players off for whole week

- Packer Report ‏@PackerReport 14m
McCarthy will be here in a second. Finley (concussion), Starks (knee), Matthews (hammy), Franklin (foot) from Sunday.

- Ross not released to send message, was about making change to roster composition

- M3 would work with him again

- Jason Wilde ‏@jasonjwilde 15m
McCarthy jokes about the Wisconsin diet being an issue on hamstring injuries. Then, more seriously: "Do I have an answer for you? No."

I trust Wilde on this but I was listening and I didn't think he reported the suggestion that diet was an issue was a joke. Great deadpan if it was.

- M3 has seen work that Packer stink in close games. Says they have done their own studies on it and answers are evident in 2010 team. Thinks its easy to draw wrong conclusions based on other team's experiences

- M3 always second guesses, Schottenheimer told him play callers come in two flavors, those who second guess and those that lie about second guessing. He puts the issue to rest by re-examining process that lead to the decision

- Like Backups effort, esp. Special Teams who had a lot of normal front liners starting but overall grades for team not as good as goal

[pbmax]

McGinn on Offensive Line (3 1/2 footballs) http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/rating-the-packers-vs-bengals-b99104632z1-224975102.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

- Lang with best performance of season against Atkins. 35 snaps and McGinn calls Atkins invisible

- Sitton had Atkins on 29 snaps and was also successful

- EDS far more effective in run game versus Peko, but did yield a sack

- Barclay had one bad run and pass pro versus Dunlap for a passable performance

- Bach had his worst day with several bad pass pros and a bad run (the Frankline fumble)

McGinn considers Bach's speed as one key reason the Packers are running zone better this year.

[Bossman641]

PB, that Rodgers article is garbage. One thing of note I took from it though..


Green Bay has allowed 20 game-winning drives since 2008, which is third-most in the league over that span.

[Patler]

Bach still needs to make that block. Sherman's offenses screened ALL the time and still got that guy's hands down.


Sherman had two advantages that McCarthy does not - 1. Chad Clifton. 2. Mark Tauscher.

[Patler]

There was a lot of talk about Rodgers failures to lead comebacks after the 2008 season. I wrote a summary about them once, and while I no longer have the details, and don't feel like redoing it all, suffice it to say that he actually lead quite a few that should have won the game that year, but for one reason or another, did not. As I recall, in one game he did it twice, but the defense gave it back each time. That happened in other games, too, often in very short order after the Packers scored. One I think was a special teams blunder that gave it away on the following kick off, and at least one winning kick were missed as time expired.

Even when he did lead winning drives, he didn't win. It happens.

[pbmax]

Sherman had two advantages that McCarthy does not - 1. Chad Clifton. 2. Mark Tauscher.

Yes. Bach might be more athletic than Clifton and I would guess that would make a cut block easier, but Clifton did it so well that perhaps bigger, in this case, is better.

[Patler]

Yes. Bach might be more athletic than Clifton and I would guess that would make a cut block easier, but Clifton did it so well that perhaps bigger, in this case, is better.

I read more than once that one of Clifton's strongest attributes in pass pro was his punch. Several players said he could stun with it, stop guys in their tracks. Probably also hard to get your arms up quickly after getting blasted in the chest.

[pbmax]

Rodgers' radio show: Throw to Finley was late, getting him closer to safety than ideal. No further info on INT thrown at Cobb.

[red]

Rodgers' radio show: Throw to Finley was late, getting him closer to safety than ideal. No further info on INT thrown at Cobb.

he either underthrew it, or it was hung up in the wind.

[Guiness]

he either underthrew it, or it was hung up in the wind.

I thought we covered that. It wasn't windy. KY said so :beat::smack::thank::no:

[denverYooper]

Yeah, that's the guy.

It's clear the Packer's are underperforming in close games, though the pick of 1-8 points is again suggestive of choosing the data that best fits your hypothesis (see previous and current claims about Rodgers in game 4 points or closer). So separating Rodgers from these results is as problematic as trying to determine how much credit should go to receivers versus the QB. And the defense factors in here.

Without diving deep there are a few mitigating factors:

1. 2008 season, his first starting season. He was 0-8 or something similar that year.
2. Passing game is maxed out. Elway used to make 4th Qtr comebacks routine because Reeves had to unshackle him from a mediocre running game and the scripted offense and let him throw and scramble most downs late. But it was nearly a different offense in the 4th quarter. Rodgers is running the 4th Qtr offense every quarter. If teams have figured them out, there is not a better backup offense.
3. Running game. Franklin's success was in part a testament to the respect the Bengals had for the Packer passing game. But that running game disappears in a lot of games under Rodgers. Sometimes its the production, sometimes its the playcaller.
4. Risk taking. The same thing that might get you a 20 point lead is not going to happen when you face a defense poised to stop the pass and ignore the run. This made no difference to Favre or Marino as they would still take a shot. Rodgers instead takes sacks. Those sacks avoid INTs but they also cost time. An incomplete, which most risky throws would produce, would stop the clock at no more cost of a down.
5. Mediocre teams, or teams with no defense tend to have the most comeback opportunities because the game is always close if the offense is at all functional. Packers have a high number of wins during his era, so those close losses are simply the natural result of a good team losing occasionally.
6. Pass Protection. Has been at its weakest as Rodgers has entered his prime. With marginal run game, he is more of a target late in games when behind.
7. McCarthy doesn't have a handle on closing a game out. he takes his foot off the brake. Phone booth offense is no way to run a game with 11:00 left. You saw both sides of this in the Redskins game.

Aaron Schatz writes a tremendous comment in reply to the Captain Comeback article: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/fo-espn-feature-columns/2013/aaron-rodgers-hidden-weakness#comment-938933

It sounds like they're going to start trying to bring more of their quality stats into the discussion. He mentions that he doesn't believe a QB's record in comeback situations/close games is usually predictive. Which makes sense, because the FO guys have always lampooned the QB wins stat.


With that in mind… Scott's analysis in the past has mainly revolved around fixing all the errors in people's conceptions of past Q4C. Going forward, however, we have all kinds of ideas for making this research even better. We want to look at go-ahead/tying drives where we can credit the QB even when his defense gave back the lead (as in Super Bowls XXXVIII and XLII). We want to look closer at coaches. We want to work on using DVOA or EPA to separate out the quarterback's performance from times when he has his defense or special teams to blame. And we want to do better statistical analysis to figure out at what point a coach or quarterback's record in Q4C becomes statistically significant. Unfortunately, we can't do that in the next 24 hours or even the next two weeks. We've got all kinds of in-season responsibilities. But we want to get to it.

He also makes mention of encouraging captain comeback to look at coaches and their W-L record in


I will also say going forward that while Scott's work on this subject has always revolved around quarterbacks, I'm personally much more interested in questions about head coaches. I do think there's something there, and I do think it is predictive. (You all know how I feel about Ron Rivera.) I've encouraged Scott to work more towards looking at what we can learn about certain coaches and their records in close games. Is there a lot of randomness that goes towards deciding close games? Absolutely. But that's all the more reason to criticize bad decision-making by head coaches. You never know where the luck is going go, so you better at least get the process right. Random chance isn't an excuse for coaches to make stupid-ass decisions.

[pbmax]

Thanks Yoop. I did see he commented about it and published a link to it on Twitter. Haven't read the full thing so thanks for the highlights.

Its is definitely an interesting piece of data and can't be dismissed as even McCarthy says they have looked into it. But its seems nonsense to single out the QB and as Schatz might be admitting here, kind of goes against the grain of the rest of the site. I am also uncomfortable about the 1-8 point deficit. Its an arbitrary choice to sort data, though Kacsmar did do a nice job debunking the Team PR numbers for QB comebacks.

[red]

McCarthy Monday Presser

- Players off for whole week

- Packer Report ‏@PackerReport 14m
McCarthy will be here in a second. Finley (concussion), Starks (knee), Matthews (hammy), Franklin (foot) from Sunday.

- Ross not released to send message, was about making change to roster composition

- M3 would work with him again

- Jason Wilde ‏@jasonjwilde 15m
McCarthy jokes about the Wisconsin diet being an issue on hamstring injuries. Then, more seriously: "Do I have an answer for you? No."

I trust Wilde on this but I was listening and I didn't think he reported the suggestion that diet was an issue was a joke. Great deadpan if it was.

- M3 has seen work that Packer stink in close games. Says they have done their own studies on it and answers are evident in 2010 team. Thinks its easy to draw wrong conclusions based on other team's experiences

- M3 always second guesses, Schottenheimer told him play callers come in two flavors, those who second guess and those that lie about second guessing. He puts the issue to rest by re-examining process that lead to the decision

- Like Backups effort, esp. Special Teams who had a lot of normal front liners starting but overall grades for team not as good as goal

yeah, give the team a whole week off, we have nothing we need to work on

[MJZiggy]

yeah, give the team a whole week off, we have nothing we need to work on

I'm sure that the three guys on the team who aren't currently injured could probably use the work, yes.

[Fritz]

Boy, in this media-thick age it the second guessing is relentless, and much of it is relentlessly stupid. Check out this little nugget from Tyler Dunne, who writes about the Packers' needing an OLB to step up opposite Matthews:

"The Packers certainly missed their defensive cornerstone Matthews when he was sidelined four games, but criticism of Walden has been mostly exaggerated. He was a productive player. In a gritty 24-20 win at Detroit, Walden had a pair of sacks. In his two seasons as the primary linebacker opposite Matthews, Walden totaled 53 pressures in all, per Journal Sentinel statistics.

For all the criticism Walden received in the playoff loss at San Francisco -- and Walden said last week he wasn't at fault on the play -- he was a violent, improving pass rusher who could rattle a quarterback.

Yes, $16 million over four years is a lot. But the point is, it's not easy finding 3-4 edge rushers."

Are you fucking kidding me? I will grant that the guy made some occasional plays, and had a couple of good games in his tenure. But how can Dunne go so far as to suggest that somehow Walden is a golden boy who the team really let get away? That is fucking insane.

Walden was wildly, wildly inconsistent. And he played the run very badly very often. And did anyone really think he was the second coming of Lawrence Taylor in terms of pass rushing?

The guy couldn't keep contain on a glass jar with a butterfly in it.

That's just incredible. Talk about rewriting history to suit your narrative. That's almost McGinnish in scope.

[Patler]

Walden was wildly, wildly inconsistent. And he played the run very badly very often. And did anyone really think he was the second coming of Lawrence Taylor in terms of pass rushing?

The guy couldn't keep contain on a glass jar with a butterfly in it.

That's just incredible. Talk about rewriting history to suit your narrative. That's almost McGinnish in scope.

Fritz; I have to say that I think Dunne's characterization of Walden's performance is more accurate than yours. Not that I think they should have kept him, I don't, especially at the cost to do so. They have to give Perry his opportunity. But, in my opinion, Walden wasn't the weak link many portray him to have been.

[Fritz]

Well, we don't agree, then. Walden was the inconsistency that is the death of a defense, in my opinion.

[Bretsky]

Well, we don't agree, then. Walden was the inconsistency that is the death of a defense, in my opinion.

I was not a Walden fan but by no means would I have ever called him the death of the defense
I would not have considered calling him, IMO, our worst defensive starter. His weaknesses were more evident due to the horrid DL play and when is the last time we really had two starting calibur safeties out there at the same time ? Should we have kept him ? No Way ! But he was just a small part of our problems Plenty of others were and still are too.

Pass Rush, Anybody besides Clay Matthews ??

[Patler]

Well, we don't agree, then. Walden was the inconsistency that is the death of a defense, in my opinion.

Ya, I expect to be lonely in my opinion on this! :lol:

[Patler]

I was not a Walden fan but by no means would I have ever called him the death of the defense
I would not have considered calling him, IMO, our worst defensive starter. His weaknesses were more evident due to the horrid DL play and when is the last time we really had two starting calibur safeties out there at the same time ? Should we have kept him ? No Way ! But he was just a small part of our problems Plenty of others were and still are too.

Pass Rush, Anybody besides Clay Matthews ??

Maybe I'm not as alone as I thought!

[Bretsky]

Maybe I'm not as alone as I thought!


Walden and Justine Sherrod

UNITED WE STAND !!!!!!!!

[Patler]

Walden and Justine Sherrod

UNITED WE STAND !!!!!!!!

When you unite them, we may be just two against a mob!

[pbmax]

Walden's biggest problem was mistakes leading to big plays, usually playing weakside run support. He was strong enough to set an edge but he could also be had play side. Witness the breakdowns Nutz used identified in 2011.

Dunne is right about the pressures, but I recall only one game of the four that Matthews missed last year where Walden seemed a threat by his lonesome.

He wasn't the answer. The problem in Cincy is that neither Perry nor Neal played like one either.

[mraynrand]

B

The guy couldn't keep contain on a glass jar with a butterfly in it.

http://jillsbooks.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/sam-and-the-firefly-illustration-eastman1.jpg?w=179

[Upnorth]

Walden had moments of good with moments of WTF???? If we could have kept him at vet minimum sure why not, but anything higher move on and find some one decent. I'm having trouble identifing a worse defensive starter last year.

[Fritz]

Ya, I expect to be lonely in my opinion on this! :lol:

Part of my point is that after a loss, suddenly letting the guy most people were piling on - me included - be signed by another team is being hailed as a mistake by the organization (this is the tone of Dunne's comments).

[Zool]

I'd rather have the AJ Hawk type than the Walden type. A guy who is rarely if ever caught out of position and making a bad decision. Walden would flash then would bonk.

[Fritz]

I think by year's end one or both of Neal/Perry will be better than Walden Pond.

[MadScientist]

From the Bleacher Report grades of all Colts players in their 27-7 win over SF:

Erik Walden: C-

Erik Walden was getting beat like a rug in the first quarter, when the 49ers ran the ball down the Colts' throats on their first touchdown drive. The ex-Packer looked just as inept as ever at setting the edge, allowing Frank Gore to get loose for 70 yards in the first half. But Walden settled down in the second half, and his renewed discipline was a big factor in the Colts' ability to contain Kaepernick.

[Fritz]

I wonder for how long his discipline will be renewed?

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[bobblehead]

Fritz; I have to say that I think Dunne's characterization of Walden's performance is more accurate than yours. Not that I think they should have kept him, I don't, especially at the cost to do so. They have to give Perry his opportunity. But, in my opinion, Walden wasn't the weak link many portray him to have been.

Walden played well often, but in the SF game (and others throughout his career) he blew containment time and again. I don't know about other rats, but I learned to to defend the QB option in 8th grade, and even though this isn't identical, I would have stayed put after I was responsible for the first 100 yards.

[bobblehead]

I wonder for how long his discipline will be renewed?

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I'm thinking weekend rental, not long term lease.

[Fritz]

[QUOTE=bobblehead;742146]Walden played well often, but in the SF game (and others throughout his career) he blew containment time and again. I don't know about other rats, but I learned to to defend the QB option in 8th grade, and even though this isn't identical, I would have stayed put after I was responsible for the first 100 yards.[/QUOTE

I believe the key phrase in your post is "he blew."

[mraynrand]

I learned to to defend the QB option in 8th grade

when the Packers start playing eighth graders, you'll be the first guy they call.