"lie, deny and hope they die"

[mraynrand]

With more stories like these (and the 2011 story from high school), it's only a matter of time before the ranks of football players will begin to be depleted from the ground level up. Unless relatively inexpensive head/brain protection technology is available soon...


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/league-of-denial/

[Maxie the Taxi]

Ray Rice's comments are interesting to say the least...

… Yeah I would let my son play. I wouldn’t want to take that opportunity away from him. As much as they talk about concussions, there’s guys who — they get hit in the head with baseballs, you can get whacked in hockey, you can get hurt in any sport you play because you’re playing at a different level of competition. So it’s just football happens to be a contact sport so it gets scrutinized and looked at in a different way.”

A guy I work with is in this exact situation. His son plays in Jr. H.S. and has been diagnosed with a concussion. The doctor has prescribed no football...none. My coworker explained to his son that he could suffer permanent damage and/or die. The son still wanted to play. Most remarkably my coworker is thinking about letting his kid play! His reasons are the same as Rice's. He doesn't want to deny the kid the opportunity. I don't understand. There are other things to live or die for besides football.

[Maxie the Taxi]

By the way, Lombardi didn't agree with Rice. He said football is NOT a contact sport. He said it's a collision sport and he instilled that mentality into his players.

[Cheesehead Craig]

The numbers are already decreasing. I've seen reports of 10-20% fewer kids going out for football just compared to last year. Given we're really at the beginning of the Concussion Era, it's very likely that it's going to keep dropping more and more. I've even read that out in PA, some smaller high schools couldn't even field a team; and they're nuts about football out there.

[denverYooper]

A few things:
1.) I'm surprised no one has posted this until now.
2.) I watched it with my wife last week and thought it was very well done, pulling together a lot facts into a cohesive and compelling narrative. We were spellbound for 2 hours. As Stephen White mentioned, it was one-sided, but it wasn't like the other side didn't have a chance to present their counterarguments.
3.) My wife already swore that our son would never play football, but the documentary sealed it for her. I have a hard time disagreeing with her, though I refuse to be final about it. The game will likely change a lot in the 13 years he has until HS. He does already love to play basketball, though.

[Patler]

Yet studies have reported that in HS basketball the frequency of concussions is also high (somewhere around 20/100,000 participants), albeit 1/3 that of HS football. Football is the leader (64/100k), but hockey (54/100k - no surprise), lacrosse (40/100k), soccer (33/100k girls, 19/100k boys) and wrestling (22/100k) also carry significant risk. If you want to minimize the risk, you have to look at track & field (2/100k), swimming/diving (1/100k) and maybe baseball (5/100k).

A point that has always been curious to me, why do these studies never mention boxing? I know it's not a high school sport, so specific studies of HS sports will not mention it, but in discussing youth sports it should come up.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Yet studies have reported that in HS basketball the frequency of concussions is also high (somewhere around 20/100,000 participants), albeit 1/3 that of HS football. Football is the leader (64/100k), but hockey (54/100k - no surprise), lacrosse (40/100k), soccer (33/100k girls, 19/100k boys) and wrestling (22/100k) also carry significant risk. If you want to minimize the risk, you have to look at track & field (2/100k), swimming/diving (1/100k) and maybe baseball (5/100k).

A point that has always been curious to me, why do these studies never mention boxing? I know it's not a high school sport, so specific studies of HS sports will not mention it, but in discussing youth sports it should come up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5nqeFWufrE

[mraynrand]

Yet studies have reported that in HS basketball the frequency of concussions is also high (somewhere around 20/100,000 participants), albeit 1/3 that of HS football. Football is the leader (64/100k), but hockey (54/100k - no surprise), lacrosse (40/100k), soccer (33/100k girls, 19/100k boys) and wrestling (22/100k) also carry significant risk. If you want to minimize the risk, you have to look at track & field (2/100k), swimming/diving (1/100k) and maybe baseball (5/100k).

A point that has always been curious to me, why do these studies never mention boxing? I know it's not a high school sport, so specific studies of HS sports will not mention it, but in discussing youth sports it should come up.

good point, but as with most things, perception is reality for many poorly informed people. As football becomes associated with concussions (and this is the clear purpose and intent for many), other sports, regardless of their concussion frequencies, will increase in participation. Of course, they eventually will have their own challenges as the activists go after them. Remember activists by their very nature will have to go after something.

The future of sports:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Jvj4nlHPGJI/UhvrV2bldNI/AAAAAAAAFpQ/Cx_qzCCYVv4/s1600/370px-StarTrekChess.jpg

[Harlan Huckleby]

The numbers are already decreasing. I've seen reports of 10-20% fewer kids going out for football just compared to last year. Given we're really at the beginning of the Concussion Era, it's very likely that it's going to keep dropping more and more. I've even read that out in PA, some smaller high schools couldn't even field a team; and they're nuts about football out there.

It's not just the concussions, either. Parents are waking up to fact that they don't want their kids wrecking their knees.

Soccer is a much healthier sport, and all the kids get to touch the ball. Of course every sport has dangers, but football is kinda crazy.

[Patler]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5nqeFWufrE



..and the other 99,999 participants were absolutely fine! :-D

[mraynrand]

Soccer is a much healthier sport, and all the kids get to touch the ball.

And it's so much fun to watch!

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think a lot of sports that are fun to play - baseball, basketball, soccer, chicken fights in the pool - are not so fun to watch.

Is it really that fun to watch people having sex? Nobody wants to get stuck holding the camera.

[mraynrand]

Is it really that fun to watch people having sex?

That's probably the dumbest thing you've ever posted. Over half the internet is devoted to people watching other people screw each other. And that's just politics. The rest is sex.

[Maxie the Taxi]

That's probably the dumbest thing you've ever posted. Over half the internet is devoted to people watching other people screw each other. And that's just politics. The rest is sex.

LOL! That's probably the funniest thing you've ever posted!

[Harlan Huckleby]

http://offcolortv.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/herp-derp.gif

everybody enjoys a good chuckle

[Patler]

A study determined that the sports activity having the highest risk for serious injury among youth under age 16 was recreational bicycle riding, followed by skateboarding and rollerblading. After that came the organized sports.

[Old School]

My granddaughter was into gymnastics in grade school. Now in her 20's, her knees are already reminding her.

[Upnorth]

I believe TMQ once showed stats that cheerleading was the worst organised sport for concussion and long term injury.

[mraynrand]

I believe TMQ once showed stats that cheerleading was the worst organised sport for concussion and long term injury.

I sprained my coccyx carrying out a difficult maneuver with a cheerleader once.

[Patler]

Two of my kids had ACL tears in soccer and gymnastics, with a lot of years/seasons played by all of them. We had no serious injuries in football (only 5 seasons collectively) or basketball (only 3 seasons). Also no injures of significance with a lot of seasons played in baseball, track and cross-country. In years and years and years worth of hockey, from 5 years old through Juniors and college, with a couple still playing as adults, we have had one concussion, a broken collarbone, a broken wrist, numerous thumb injuries, a sprained knee and three teeth lost (that's those damn half-shields!)

[Zool]

Near the end of the documentary is when they get in to what might be the actual issue in football. If the Dr's are correct the smaller repetitive hits to the head are causing the long term brain issues like dementia and aggression. I watched it last week and it took me back a bit. If players are suffering 10-12 minor concussions per game it's going to be huge.

[MadtownPacker]

The problem with football at almost all levels is the large percentage of players not tackling properly. Instead everyone is trying to go for the highlight reel hits. Blame ESPN for spotlighting shit like "Jacked Up" or anything that glorifies hard hits over solid play. It's kinda like how we dog on Hawk for not being flashy IMO.

[pbmax]

Yet studies have reported that in HS basketball the frequency of concussions is also high (somewhere around 20/100,000 participants), albeit 1/3 that of HS football. Football is the leader (64/100k), but hockey (54/100k - no surprise), lacrosse (40/100k), soccer (33/100k girls, 19/100k boys) and wrestling (22/100k) also carry significant risk. If you want to minimize the risk, you have to look at track & field (2/100k), swimming/diving (1/100k) and maybe baseball (5/100k).

A point that has always been curious to me, why do these studies never mention boxing? I know it's not a high school sport, so specific studies of HS sports will not mention it, but in discussing youth sports it should come up.

Boxing has already gone through this and that is why there are independent commissions (theoretically) in the States to regulate boxing matches and medical standards while most other sports are regulated on a more ad hoc basis. It is also why there are no longer (that I am aware of) any HS or college boxing teams. I think the Service academies are among the few exceptions.

One of the physicians tasked by the NFL to investigate mild-traumatic brain injuries (he was on the committee prior to its reorg) still maintains that there is not a conclusive and documented link between football related concussions and CTE. This lack of direct evidence was reaffirmed by a study released last year. (Going to have to hunt for the link).

However, the link between brain injuries and later cognitive impairment from boxing has been established clinically. Football might be headed in that direction, but there is a significant amount of research to be done.

[pbmax]

Near the end of the documentary is when they get in to what might be the actual issue in football. If the Dr's are correct the smaller repetitive hits to the head are causing the long term brain issues like dementia and aggression. I watched it last week and it took me back a bit. If players are suffering 10-12 minor concussions per game it's going to be huge.

This is the one that is going to be hard to resolve. If repeated sub-consussive hits are one of the culprits, then line play would have to change dramatically and perhaps helmets.

However, there are a lot of factors that could still come into play. If PEDs exacerbate this situation, that is one avenue to attack it. An other might be better diagnosis of an initial concussion; perhaps the sub-cussive hits do the damage but only in conjunction with a prior concussive injury.

[pbmax]

Two of my kids had ACL tears in soccer and gymnastics, with a lot of years/seasons played by all of them. We had no serious injuries in football (only 5 seasons collectively) or basketball (only 3 seasons). Also no injures of significance with a lot of seasons played in baseball, track and cross-country. In years and years and years worth of hockey, from 5 years old through Juniors and college, with a couple still playing as adults, we have had one concussion, a broken collarbone, a broken wrist, numerous thumb injuries, a sprained knee and three teeth lost (that's those damn half-shields!)

Yes, I would be surprised if football has a significantly higher incidence of ACL tears than soccer or basketball.

[Patler]

Boxing has already gone through this and that is why there are independent commissions (theoretically) in the States to regulate boxing matches and medical standards while most other sports are regulated on a more ad hoc basis. It is also why there are no longer (that I am aware of) any HS or college boxing teams. I think the Service academies are among the few exceptions.

One of the physicians tasked by the NFL to investigate mild-traumatic brain injuries (he was on the committee prior to its reorg) still maintains that there is not a conclusive and documented link between football related concussions and CTE. This lack of direct evidence was reaffirmed by a study released last year. (Going to have to hunt for the link).

However, the link between brain injuries and later cognitive impairment from boxing has been established clinically. Football might be headed in that direction, but there is a significant amount of research to be done.

All that is true, I know. But there is great concern over the incidental, unintended concussions in all these other sports, and yet we allow a sport in which the ultimate goal is to cause a concussion.

If we need to have extensive litigation and make changes in the way the game is played to protect against concussions in football, shouldn't we flat out prohibit boxing? If a football player is prohibited from tackling high, or from tackling in a certain way because it might cause a concussion, shouldn't we outlaw hits to the head in boxing, which are specifically intended to cause a concussion?

[pbmax]

All that is true, I know. But there is great concern over the incidental, unintended concussions in all these other sports, and yet we allow a sport in which the ultimate goal is to cause a concussion.

If we need to have extensive litigation and make changes in the way the game is played to protect against concussions in football, shouldn't we flat out prohibit boxing? If a football player is prohibited from tackling high, or from tackling in a certain way because it might cause a concussion, shouldn't we outlaw hits to the head in boxing, which are specifically intended to cause a concussion?

Numbers game? Fewer participants, no kids, significant amount of money for certain geographic locations: Vegas and Atlantic City. Some states have made it very difficult to stage a match though I'm not sure whether any have banned it.

[Patler]

Numbers game? Fewer participants, no kids, significant amount of money for certain geographic locations: Vegas and Atlantic City. Some states have made it very difficult to stage a match though I'm not sure whether any have banned it.

Could be, but I think teenage boxing is still popular in some areas. A lot of HS age kids participate at levels leading up to Golden Gloves tournaments, which I believe is 16+. Kids as young as 10 participate in Silver Gloves competitions.

Last time I checked, Notre Dame still had the Bengal Bouts tournament, which is a campus-wide boxing tournament that lasts from November to March. It is open to boys of all skill levels and starts with training and sparring session before the actual tournament. At one time it was hugely popular. Early bouts were often ugly, when an experienced boxer met a nonathletic kid trying to gain fame. I wonder how much longer they will continue it?

Yes, they have (or had?) a similar women's boxing tournament, too.

[CaptainKickass]

When the hell are they gonna make a documentary about the brain problems suffered by football FANS including everything from stress and high blood pressure to straight up heart attacks and brain aneurysms as a result of over-analyzing, discussing, interacting, arguing, watching, and most importantly posting on football forums like this one? Hmm?

(I'm looking at YOU Goodell!! You don't care about the SAFETY of the fans do you?!!)

[MadtownPacker]

By logging on to PackerRats you waive all rights to claim damages to your health, example- carpal tunnel, lame sex life, etc.

[Cheesehead Craig]

All that is true, I know. But there is great concern over the incidental, unintended concussions in all these other sports, and yet we allow a sport in which the ultimate goal is to cause a concussion.

If we need to have extensive litigation and make changes in the way the game is played to protect against concussions in football, shouldn't we flat out prohibit boxing? If a football player is prohibited from tackling high, or from tackling in a certain way because it might cause a concussion, shouldn't we outlaw hits to the head in boxing, which are specifically intended to cause a concussion?

Boxing never denied it's nature that it's a violent, debilitating sport. Football has.

[Patler]

Boxing never denied it's nature that it's a violent, debilitating sport. Football has.

I don't know that football did, they mostly just said nothing. Anyone with half a brain (does that leave out NFL players???) can easily feel the impact on their own bodies, and see the effects on those long retired. Players were simply in denial about what they should have known.

But, in the long run that is no longer the point. Past admissions and denials no longer matter. We know concussions are frequent in football, everyone now admits that. There is evidence (including boxing) about the bad effects. If that evidence makes us change football rules, why doesn't it mandate a prohibition of boxing? If the argument is that participants assume the risk in boxing, why isn't that also the case in football?

[green_bowl_packer]

Helmet Tester 1912

Supervised by Great Grand Daddy Goodell

http://s18.postimg.org/epj24nr3d/726.jpg

[pbmax]

I don't know that football did, they mostly just said nothing. Anyone with half a brain (does that leave out NFL players???) can easily feel the impact on their own bodies, and see the effects on those long retired. Players were simply in denial about what they should have known.

But, in the long run that is no longer the point. Past admissions and denials no longer matter. We know concussions are frequent in football, everyone now admits that. There is evidence (including boxing) about the bad effects. If that evidence makes us change football rules, why doesn't it mandate a prohibition of boxing? If the argument is that participants assume the risk in boxing, why isn't that also the case in football?

I think we can say football (not just the NFL) did more than say nothing. The NCAA had what looks like a reasonable concussion policy on its books and medical literature in 1933 (http://deadspin.com/a-timeline-of-concussion-science-and-nfl-denial-1222395754). Coaches responded (eventually) by substituting their own diagnosis for that of a medical professional. That is how we came to know "seeing stars", "bell rung" and a "ding".

The legal requirement that participants in boxing be subject to a medical professional before and during the bout is still a step ahead of the NFL. Which only got around to that a couple of years ago on concussions, and is still not there on other injuries.

[denverYooper]

Could be, but I think teenage boxing is still popular in some areas. A lot of HS age kids participate at levels leading up to Golden Gloves tournaments, which I believe is 16+. Kids as young as 10 participate in Silver Gloves competitions.

Last time I checked, Notre Dame still had the Bengal Bouts tournament, which is a campus-wide boxing tournament that lasts from November to March. It is open to boys of all skill levels and starts with training and sparring session before the actual tournament. At one time it was hugely popular. Early bouts were often ugly, when an experienced boxer met a nonathletic kid trying to gain fame. I wonder how much longer they will continue it?

Yes, they have (or had?) a similar women's boxing tournament, too.

Even if there are some areas where teenage boxing is still popular, that level of participation is dwarfed by the number of youth participating in Pop Warner, which can start as young as 5. I can go drive by any of several parks right now and see a number of teams practicing. So while you note the existence of some youth boxing, I'd put money on the difference in bodies being at least an order of magnitude, maybe more.

[mraynrand]

When the hell are they gonna make a documentary about the brain problems suffered by football FANS including everything from stress and high blood pressure to straight up heart attacks and brain aneurysms as a result of over-analyzing, discussing, interacting, arguing, watching, and most importantly posting on football forums like this one? Hmm?

Won't you please help Tyrone Bigguns?
http://packerrats.com/image.php?u=81&dateline=2010

[Cheesehead Craig]

I don't know that football did, they mostly just said nothing. Anyone with half a brain (does that leave out NFL players???) can easily feel the impact on their own bodies, and see the effects on those long retired. Players were simply in denial about what they should have known.

But, in the long run that is no longer the point. Past admissions and denials no longer matter. We know concussions are frequent in football, everyone now admits that. There is evidence (including boxing) about the bad effects. If that evidence makes us change football rules, why doesn't it mandate a prohibition of boxing? If the argument is that participants assume the risk in boxing, why isn't that also the case in football?

So why just pick on boxing? Why not outlaw all contact sports?

[Joemailman]

So why just pick on boxing? Why not outlaw all contact sports?

Well, there's only one sport where the ultimate goal is to punch a guy in the head until he can't get up.

[mraynrand]

Well, there's only one sport where the ultimate goal is to punch a guy in the head until he can't get up.

You've never played darts in England, that's for sure.

[pbmax]

You've never played darts in England, that's for sure.

Or soccer hooligan.

[Iron Mike]

I sprained my coccyx carrying out a difficult maneuver with a cheerleader once.

http://content8.flixster.com/question/57/37/92/5737922_std.jpg