Bad locker room in Miami?

[Guiness]

I posted a line about Jonathan Martin walking out on the Dolphins in another thread, and at the time I was thinking his response to a 'prank' sounded a lot more like someone who is being teased and bullied.

Well, seems like that's the case. Stories are coming out now that his nickname was 'The Big Weirdo' and he's saying it's an abusive environment, the taunts and teasing involved his family.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/10/31/report-abusive-environment-for-jonathan-martin-in-miami/

Not a good scene. Philbin does not seem to be doing a good job of keeping his players under control down there at all.

[hoosier]

The last sentence of that article is kind of a bolt from the blue sky. I wonder if Martin is (or is at least perceived as) gay.

[denverYooper]

The last sentence of that article is kind of a bolt from the blue sky. I wonder if Martin is (or is at least perceived as) gay.

I think that part is just Florio's click-farming.

It sounds more like they were teasing him because he's nerdy. His parents are Harvard-educated lawyers.

[denverYooper]

I wonder who the instigator is? There are some solid citizens in that bunch.

[KYPack]

I think that part is just Florio's click-farming.

It sounds more like they were teasing him because he's nerdy. His parents are Harvard-educated lawyers.

Yeah, I thought it was Florio at it again, too.

Kid went to Stanford, majored in the classics.

He's from North Hollywood, CA.

If he was from West Hollywood, there would be no doubt.

[Tony Oday]

This is the kind of adults we are raising...oh boo fucking hoo you got picked on for being different get the hell over it and make your millions and shut the hell up!

[Zool]

This is the kind of adults we are raising...oh boo fucking hoo you got picked on for being different get the hell over it and make your millions and shut the hell up!

Imagine everywhere you went at work, your coworkers were taunting you and your family....for 6 solid months.

[denverYooper]

Imagine everywhere you went at work, your coworkers were taunting you and your family....for 6 solid months.

18 months. The guy chose to stop taking shit after a year and a half. He got pissed off and left. I don't see anywhere that he whined to anyone in the media or otherwise about it. There aren't any really good details about what made him do so -- only speculation based on a few observations -- so no one actually knows the depth of what went on.

[pbmax]

Does anyone remember any of this from last year during the Dolphin's Hard Knocks?

[Tony Oday]

Im good with that if you are paying me $4.5 million to deal with it. Buck up buttercup, keep your head down and have your agent talk to the GM saying it is hostile to you there and you would quietly like to be moved. Dont make demands and dont run away. A Bully LOVES it when you run.

[pbmax]

Im good with that if you are paying me $4.5 million to deal with it. Buck up buttercup, keep your head down and have your agent talk to the GM saying it is hostile to you there and you would quietly like to be moved. Dont make demands and dont run away. A Bully LOVES it when you run.

So for $4.5 million, how many years would you volunteer to subject yourself to this?

[Patler]

There is something odd in this situation. He is a second year player, so should be past the first year hazing. He was a 2nd round draft choice (not an "entitled" first rounder, nor a "low life" low round pick or FA). He is well-spoken, sounds normal in the link below from when he was drafted. Maybe the oddest thing to me is the kid has been a starter from the get-go. Started all 16 last year and their first 7 this year. You would think he would be appreciated among the other O-line, the offense, the team.

An interview from minutes after he was drafted:
(the panel loved the kid's interview)

http://www.miamidolphins.com/multimedia/videos/Jonathan-Martin-Speaks-With-The-Finsiders/33ce1b51-56fa-4392-9947-2f9deefcaf44

[KYPack]

I dunno, 6 or 7 big fat greasy fuckers picking on you every day?

Might be a pretty tough sled.

His parents have $, maybe he just couldn't hack it anymore.

Remember, never judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes.

That way, you're a mile away from him and have stolen his shoes.

[denverYooper]

Im good with that if you are paying me $4.5 million to deal with it. Buck up buttercup, keep your head down and have your agent talk to the GM saying it is hostile to you there and you would quietly like
to be moved. Dont make demands and dont run away. A Bully LOVES it when you run.

Yeah, but they love it when you "tattle". I'm willing to bet that he's talked to his agent about it and that the agent has broached the subject with the team. But if the team believes he's a good enough performer and they want him around, that may not be so easy and maybe nothing is getting done. So he escalated it with a "fuck off assholes".

But we don't know what the real story is. Maybe he really is just easily offended and this is the due course of NFL rookie hazing. Could be. There are only a few known facts attached to the case and now the "bullying" narrative has been spun by the media, so it's sending all speculation into the stratosphere because that appellation today has more baggage than Immelda Marcos.

One last thing: when you put a dollar amount on your dignity, you become a whore. Some people are fine with that. Some aren't. So it goes.

[Old School]

I don't get it. The guy is a starter on their O line. If he's contributing better than anyone else they have at the position, what's the problem? They don't have to invite him to dinner or go to his house. I'm sure if we knew all the Packer players well, there'd be a few that seemed odd or even unacceptable by our personal standards. BUT .... At the end of the day it's about football and playing as a team. It's crossed my mind that It just may be that a couple of his team mates are the real wierdos.

Man's inhumanity to man.

[Pugger]

The last sentence of that article is kind of a bolt from the blue sky. I wonder if Martin is (or is at least perceived as) gay.

I wondered about that too. I can understand if he was getting rookie hazing but he's a second year player.

[bobblehead]

Im good with that if you are paying me $4.5 million to deal with it. Buck up buttercup, keep your head down and have your agent talk to the GM saying it is hostile to you there and you would quietly like to be moved. Dont make demands and dont run away. A Bully LOVES it when you run.

This would have been my approach as well, but I am over 40 and have some years under the belt. I was non confrontational as a young man and went from taking it to whooping some ass with nothing in between.

I can see his point of view. The team, teammates, no one wants to stand up and take my side so I will take my most valuable asset away to punish you....my play on the field.

Sadly I was more confrontational for others than for myself when I was young, I likely would have tried to help the kid out, but in his situation I would have likely had a blood bath and gotten a bad rep at that age.

[Tony Oday]

So for $4.5 million, how many years would you volunteer to subject yourself to this?

To make $4.8 million dollars it would take me, in todays money, a shade under 38 years, I would have no problem doing this for his 4 years and then retire. Call me a whore I dont care I am in business to pay for my son, wife and myself, it is about the money.

[George Cumby]

There is obviously more to this story than we are getting.

Not to look at our team through rose colored glasses, but I don't think this happens at 1265.

[MadtownPacker]

This is the kind of adults we are raising...oh boo fucking hoo you got picked on for being different get the hell over it and make your millions and shut the hell up!im not one for soft behavior but I think you have it partly right. These ARE the kind of adults being raised. To act like fucking children, to look down upon someone for being "smart" or for not being "hard". Reality is people don't know how to act right and this is one of those cases IMO. The world is full of wannabe thugs who think lowering yourself to shit is cool. Seems to be rampant among poor folk as I have personally seen.

[Bossman641]

Does anyone remember any of this from last year during the Dolphin's Hard Knocks?

I watched it and I don't remember anything really.

Just glancing over their roster, trying to figure out who's been picking on Martin. My money is on Incognito and Pouncey.

[Tony Oday]

im not one for soft behavior but I think you have it partly right. These ARE the kind of adults being raised. To act like fucking children, to look down upon someone for being "smart" or for not being "hard". Reality is people don't know how to act right and this is one of those cases IMO. The world is full of wannabe thugs who think lowering yourself to shit is cool. Seems to be rampant among poor folk as I have personally seen.

Thanks for pointing out the other side. Not only are we raising whimps that cant take it we are also raising whimps that need a group to pick on an individual.

[Smidgeon]

Maybe I'm taking this conversation too seriously, but it's hard for me not to take bullying seriously. I was the victim of vicious bullying in school for almost an entire decade and had parents who were too busy with their own issues to teach a shy kid to stand up for himself. Without those tools and not being the kind of kid who retaliated (I believed even then that everyone you meet should be treated with respect and good will), I entered a very dark period in my life where my fondest thoughts were of suicide. It took me another fifteen years to clean up that messy, destructive cycle of despair.

Now, looking back, I can easily say that my parents failed by not giving me the tools to protect myself, but the blame lies solely on the shoulders of the bullies. Anyone who feels the need to stand taller by putting someone else down, especially the easy targets, don't deserve anything except the harshest penalties. There is zero justification for that. I don't care how much anyone is making, what their social status is, what their skills are, what they look like, or anything. Nobody should ever have to be bullied. Ever.

So, Tony, would you mind explaining why people who aren't good at taking bullying or standing up to bullies are "wimps"? It seems to me that assessment blames the victim and not the perpetrator (be it the parents who didn't equip a child or the bullies for being bullies).

[KYPack]

I watched it and I don't remember anything really.

Just glancing over their roster, trying to figure out who's been picking on Martin. My money is on Incognito and Pouncey.

Yeah, Big Richie is a major asshole.

The only thing I remember from that Hard Knocks was Joe Philbin firing Chad Johnson.

Seemed like Joe was in control during that deal.

[pbmax]

To make $4.8 million dollars it would take me, in todays money, a shade under 38 years, I would have no problem doing this for his 4 years and then retire. Call me a whore I dont care I am in business to pay for my son, wife and myself, it is about the money.

Well, you may have hit upon a key point. Two of them, actually.

He has already pocketed 1 and 1/2 year's salary and his signing bonus (nearly $2 million). And he went to a good school, is probably pretty bright and has good prospects with his parents occupations and connections. So, by your financial calculations, he is already ahead enough to tell the Dolphins and the problematic players to get stuffed.

He doesn't need it.

[Tony Oday]

Maybe I'm taking this conversation too seriously, but it's hard for me not to take bullying seriously. I was the victim of vicious bullying in school for almost an entire decade and had parents who were too busy with their own issues to teach a shy kid to stand up for himself. Without those tools and not being the kind of kid who retaliated (I believed even then that everyone you meet should be treated with respect and good will), I entered a very dark period in my life where my fondest thoughts were of suicide. It took me another fifteen years to clean up that messy, destructive cycle of despair.

Now, looking back, I can easily say that my parents failed by not giving me the tools to protect myself, but the blame lies solely on the shoulders of the bullies. Anyone who feels the need to stand taller by putting someone else down, especially the easy targets, don't deserve anything except the harshest penalties. There is zero justification for that. I don't care how much anyone is making, what their social status is, what their skills are, what they look like, or anything. Nobody should ever have to be bullied. Ever.

So, Tony, would you mind explaining why people who aren't good at taking bullying or standing up to bullies are "wimps"? It seems to me that assessment blames the victim and not the perpetrator (be it the parents who didn't equip a child or the bullies for being bullies).

Were you a 24 year old that was 6-2 310? sorry no. I am sorry you were bullied I can imagine that sucks and if it gave you suicidal thoughts I am really glad you did not follow through. Your parents, teachers and people in authority when you were a minor failed you. This guy, though PB makes a point in the post below, is getting "picked" on in a locker room, ever been in one? It happens all the time. I hope we find out what actually happened because it has a great possibibility to change my mind but what facts we have now I say buck up buttercup.

Now to your situation. I have a son and I know I have taught him and will continue to teach him to stand up for himself and others, what I am saying is we are raising kids that think they are #1 when they dont accomplish anything, tell them they are smart when they fail and move them along the system regardless of merit. My son is 7, he has 6 trophies. I was a three sport athlete from kindergarden on and I have 9 total trophies, a lot of ribbons, but what the hell, my son is even sick of getting participation trophies. We are not raising our children to thrive in adversity and this will have an adverse affect on our country in the coming decades.

[run pMc]

If Florio final comment is intended to out Martin, that would certainly suggest a reason for being persecuted. There also might be a mental illness issue.
There has to be a reason his own teammates -- and O-linemen tend to be a close-knit group -- would call him "The Big Weirdo" and haze him past his rookie year. Something's not right there.

Bahktiari has to buy tins of dip for his fellow linemen...I'd expect that ends after the season. I've also read (somewhere on JSO a few years back) that McCarthy doesn't tolerate much in the way of rookie hazing -- there are so many rookies and young players on the team, that's probably just as well.

Didn't Philbin lose a kid to suicide? Maybe he's not as on top of things as he oughta be. Either way, it doesn't look good for Miami coaches & players (incl. Martin) IMO.

[Cheesehead Craig]

If he was being picked on continuously over a long period of time by multiple people working together then I got no problem with what he did. Just don't play their game. Should he "tattle"? Then he looks like a whiner. Just sit and take it? Silence gives permission for that crap to continue. He did the right thing, he called it bullshit and he walked away.

Don't know the full story, but I don't see him as some pampered, over-trophied kid. Having wealthy parents or being smart doesn't automatically equate him with that. He made the NFL which isn't for those who only accomplish "participation ribbons". He is also a starter at a hard, important position.

[Pugger]

The more I think about it the more I agree with Hoosier. This young man might have been 'found out' that he is gay and I suspect athletic locker rooms are not too welcoming to people with that lifestyle. The only other plausible explanation is Martin has a mental disorder (bi-polar?) or anxiety issues and perceives playful antics as hostile.

[Guiness]

Apparently this did show up a bit on Hard Knocks, he earned the nickname during that show.

More to this, it remains to be seen if we'll hear any of it. A couple of players have come out and said there was nothing going on
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/01/teammates-deny-bullying-jonathan-martin/
but there had to be something. Garner saying "it was just normal stuff" is a pretty stock statement that assholes in situations like this will say, "we were just fooling around". It also acknowledges that there was something going on.

What was the "something" though? Playing pro football has to be an insanely stressful way to live. I'm sure the players blow off some steam by fooling around and pulling pranks. Maybe he just couldn't handle the environment, or maybe he really was piled on.

A Stanford graduate with two Harvard educated parents certainly had to stand out in that environment. I found myself in a pretty bad situation a few years ago...making damn good money at a job I enjoyed. Problem was it was pretty isolated and I was the only Canadian in a crew of mostly Scotsman. They definitely ganged up on me, and there were some times I was close to walking away from it all and just taking my chances with what came up next.

[Guiness]

The more I think about it the more I agree with Hoosier. This young man might have been 'found out' that he is gay and I suspect athletic locker rooms are not too welcoming to people with that lifestyle. The only other plausible explanation is Martin has a mental disorder (bi-polar?) or anxiety issues and perceives playful antics as hostile.

Couple of really good guesses there.

I think you're all kinds of wrong in your view Oday. We don't know at all what was going on. Anyone can be broken, and we don't know how far this all went. This happened at a meal...did they mess with his food? There seems to be at least a few guys in on this, maybe they fucked with his sleeping too? Sleep deprivation is one of the quickest and easiest ways to mess someone up. If it is harassment (as opposed to thin skin) and there were enough of them doing it they could have made his life damn miserable.

[Guiness]

...

Cheesehead, that gif freaks me out. Thought it was funny at first, but watch the kids arms as he goes down, is that a fencing response???

[ThunderDan]

I completely disagree with Tony here.

This is a team. Teammates don't fuck with someone so bad that they walk off the team. That isn't hazing. I am OK with the rookies picking up the pads and getting tins of chew. Obviously the other players on the team were doing more than that.

This just makes me sick. You are supposed to work together. As a good friend of mine who was in the Marines and got a free trip to Iraq the first time around said, When you are in a firefight you need to know that everyone works as a team, one guy who isn't sharp can get us all killed. When those guys got together there was plenty of ribing and joking and fooling around, chasing skirts and drinking beers. But my buddy said they KNEW where the line was and would never cross it because if they had a dysfunctional team they could die.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Cheesehead, that gif freaks me out. Thought it was funny at first, but watch the kids arms as he goes down, is that a fencing response???

He starts a lunge but doesn't expect the balestra from the goat.

[Cheesehead Craig]

They should just cancel pro football in Florida. Miami, Tampa Bay, and Jacksonville are all just fucked up.

[KYPack]

Apparently this did show up a bit on Hard Knocks, he earned the nickname during that show.

More to this, it remains to be seen if we'll hear any of it. A couple of players have come out and said there was nothing going on
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/01/teammates-deny-bullying-jonathan-martin/
but there had to be something. Garner saying "it was just normal stuff" is a pretty stock statement that assholes in situations like this will say, "we were just fooling around". It also acknowledges that there was something going on.

What was the "something" though? Playing pro football has to be an insanely stressful way to live. I'm sure the players blow off some steam by fooling around and pulling pranks. Maybe he just couldn't handle the environment, or maybe he really was piled on.

A Stanford graduate with two Harvard educated parents certainly had to stand out in that environment. I found myself in a pretty bad situation a few years ago...making damn good money at a job I enjoyed. Problem was it was pretty isolated and I was the only Canadian in a crew of mostly Scotsman. They definitely ganged up on me, and there were some times I was close to walking away from it all and just taking my chances with what came up next.

Roger all that, espec the bit about the Scotties.

With his background, he probably wasn't used to the trash talking that goes on in the Midwest and the dirty South. Some of this all might be a culture shock thing.

About the Scotsman, we had two Scotties that joined my old rugby team. Those two pricks started bullying the other 30 guys! They were especially rascist and were brutal to our Black players. We soon had a bomb party at the next practice. We beat 'em bloody, but it didn't slow 'em down enuff. Them Highlanders ain't real brainy fellows. So we did another round at the next practice and they stopped.

To a Scot, bullying and rugby seem to be the same thing.

[pbmax]

Were you a 24 year old that was 6-2 310? sorry no.

The fact that you think size is a mitigating factor makes me think you don't quite grasp the full range of possible issues. Its a workplace and there are only certain responses that will be tolerated (even offsite). So even if he could physically intimidate the offenders at a time he was not outnumbered, he was going to find it hard to justify that response to his coaches and GM*.

I never had a problem with kids who were large because until the last couple of years of high school I was bigger than they were and it wasn't worth the trouble for them.

The little ones with a Napolean complex though, they were clever, sharp tongued little bastards. And the leverage of the situation worked against me there because physical intimidation would have brought sanction down on me ("look at the big, huge football player picking on the tiny little angel").

Size has nothing to do with it and can even work against you.


*None of this applies if you are Charles Haley.

[Guiness]

Roger all that, espec the bit about the Scotties.

With his background, he probably wasn't used to the trash talking that goes on in the Midwest and the dirty South. Some of this all might be a culture shock thing.

About the Scotsman, we had two Scotties that joined my old rugby team. Those two pricks started bullying the other 30 guys! They were especially rascist and were brutal to our Black players. We soon had a bomb party at the next practice. We beat 'em bloody, but it didn't slow 'em down enuff. Them Highlanders ain't real brainy fellows. So we did another round at the next practice and they stopped.

To a Scot, bullying and rugby seem to be the same thing.

Sounds about right re: the Scotties

Drill crew of about 20 guys, more than half Scotsmen. These guys were earning well over anything they could make elsewhere, and were generally fearful of losing their jobs which would probably have cut their earning potential by about 75%. A couple of guys were re-assigned for training and they were pretty much in tears. I was an outsider, probably slotted to eventually become their boss, didn't understand a lot of their slang and culture, so I became a target, there were physical threats and challenges. Luckily for me, I drank with the Russians and got on well with them.

[Guiness]

The fact that you think size is a mitigating factor makes me think you don't quite grasp the full range of possible issues. Its a workplace and there are only certain responses that will be tolerated (even offsite). So even if he could physically intimidate the offenders at a time he was not outnumbered, he was going to find it hard to justify that response to his coaches and GM*.

I never had a problem with kids who were large because until the last couple of years of high school I was bigger than they were and it wasn't worth the trouble for them.

The little ones with a Napolean complex though, they were clever, sharp tongued little bastards. And the leverage of the situation worked against me there because physical intimidation would have brought sanction down on me ("look at the big, huge football player picking on the tiny little angel").

Size has nothing to do with it and can even work against you.


*Non of this applies if you are Charles Haley.

Yup, and he it's not like he had physical superiority over them. They are all elite athletes.

Charles Haley and Martin both.

[falco]

Imagine everywhere you went at work, your coworkers were taunting you and your family....for 6 solid months.

+1

[falco]

This is the kind of adults we are raising...oh boo fucking hoo you got picked on for being different get the hell over it and make your millions and shut the hell up!

:roll:

[Joemailman]

I watched it and I don't remember anything really.

Just glancing over their roster, trying to figure out who's been picking on Martin. My money is on Incognito and Pouncey.

Incognito is being investigated for his role in this. No surprise there. http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9913324/sources-nflpa-eyes-miami-dolphins-richie-incognito-jonathan-martin-case

[Guiness]

Incognito is being investigated for his role in this. No surprise there. http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9913324/sources-nflpa-eyes-miami-dolphins-richie-incognito-jonathan-martin-case

Incognito isn't, and I'm betting Pouncey's name is the next one mentioned.

[Infamous]

Is he gay? What else can grown men w Harvard pedigree get panties in bunch about via ribbing?

[Infamous]

ok I see I was late w my assumption....

[denverYooper]

Incognito isn't, and I'm betting Pouncey's name is the next one mentioned.

Frank Schwab ‏@YahooSchwab 1h
ESPN with some allegations toward Richie Incognito for intimidating Jonathan Martin, including that he made Martin give $15k to a.Vegas trip

Frank Schwab ‏@YahooSchwab 1h
A trip that Martin didn't go on, btw. ESPN says there are texts and a voicemail that show pattern of intimidation. Interesting

CBS has Incog as the main guy and Pouncey also involved...
http://mweb.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jason-la-canfora/24181321/dolphins-t-jonathan-martin-harassment-was-ongoing-leave-could-be-lengthy

[Tony Oday]

So a rookie has to chip in on an annual Vegas Trip that is team building but he doesn't go he should still have to pay that's his right of passage. We always hear about rooks getting stuck spending cash on the vets.

[Patler]

So a rookie has to chip in on an annual Vegas Trip that is team building but he doesn't go he should still have to pay that's his right of passage. We always hear about rooks getting stuck spending cash on the vets.

$15,000. ???? Buying a turkey or snuff is one thing, but $15,000? That's flat out extortion.

How long does the guy remain a rookie? I don't know when the trip was, but I assume it was in the off season. His "rookiedom" should have stopped by then. Apparently half way through his second season, there was no let-up.

[pbmax]

$15,000. ???? Buying a turkey or snuff is one thing, but $15,000? That's flat out extortion.

How long does the guy remain a rookie? I don't know when the trip was, but I assume it was in the off season. His "rookiedom" should have stopped by then. Apparently half way through his second season, there was no let-up.

I wonder what KFC wings are costing Boyd and Jones weekly this year? Probably not a thousand a week.

Rodgers and the O lineman took Bach out to eat and gave him a phony $10,000 bill. Rodgers and Co. then teased him mercilessly for believing such an outrageous bill for 8-10 guys.

[red]

That's flat out extortion.

thats the exact word that came to my mind when i was reading about this story

if true, incognito should end up in jail

[pbmax]

Had the totals wrong in Bach hazing dinner. It was an $11,000 dummy bill for 13 players in St. Louis during preseason. No details on how much the actual bill was.

http://www.espnwisconsin.com/common/page.php?feed=2&id=9311&is_corp=1

On the other hand, its now easier to believe why Incognito was always voted by players as one of the dirtiest. His teammates were helping elect him.

[George Cumby]

Fuck these guys. Intimidated and threatened by a dude who is 30 IQ points smarter than they are so they attack, attack, attack.

[Guiness]

I wonder what KFC wings are costing Boyd and Jones weekly this year? Probably not a thousand a week.

Rodgers and the O lineman took Bach out to eat and gave him a phony $10,000 bill. Rodgers and Co. then teased him mercilessly for believing such an outrageous bill for 8-10 guys.

Hard to run that sort of a bill up at Applebee's!

[MJZiggy]

Hard to run that sort of a bill up at Applebee's!
You mean they didn't eat at Favre's Steakhouse?

[Joemailman]

Incognito suspended indefinitely by the Dolphins.

[George Cumby]

Incognito suspended indefinitely by the Dolphins.

Whoa.

[George Cumby]

Based on what little that can be gleaned from this, I can't imagine Martin can return to that team. Nor can I imagine that Philbin can succeed as coach. If the league has to step in on something which should have been handled internally, I think he's lost that locker room.

[Kiwon]

Lots of speculation and emoting going on in this thread. I'll just wait for the facts.

It's quite possible that the situation isn't as sensational as it warrants. Did Martin overreact? I guess we will know when the details come out.

However, since the Dolphins suspended Incognito indefinitely, I think they owe their fans at least a cursory explanation of why they took that action. They won't provide one, probably under orders from the NFL legal brass, so we just have to wait and hope that the league will do a better job on this one than they did in the "Bounty-gate" scandal.

[Patler]

I can't imagine they would have suspended Incognito "indefinitely" without clear evidence of actions very much over the top of what is acceptable. They have to be very sure about what went on, and it must have been extreme.

[Pugger]

It must have been extreme for a guy to react like he did and feel he had to leave the premises. Philbin has a big mess on his hands and he didn't handle it well at all. I can't imagine Joe had no clue this kind of crap wasn't going on.

[red]

racially themed threats left by incognito via text message and voice mail

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/jonathan-martin-richie-incognito-racially-charged-texts-voicemails-miami-dolphins-nflpa-investigation

[Patler]

It must have been extreme for a guy to react like he did and feel he had to leave the premises. Philbin has a big mess on his hands and he didn't handle it well at all. I can't imagine Joe had no clue this kind of crap wasn't going on.

Ya, Philbin could be in trouble.

I've been trying to remember, there was a story several years ago about one of the Packer assistants who had a severe speech impediment as a child (stuttering??), and my recollection is that it was Philbin. Does anyone else remember the article? If it was Philbin, you would think he might be more intuned to harassment/bullying issues, because he probably experienced them as well.

[pbmax]

Based on what little that can be gleaned from this, I can't imagine Martin can return to that team. Nor can I imagine that Philbin can succeed as coach. If the league has to step in on something which should have been handled internally, I think he's lost that locker room.

I don't know. If Martin doesn't come forward with specifics (that it does now look like he has provided), no one else will do so. That leaves the team in the dark even if they know there is a player in trouble. Its a tough thing to look into if the primary source of info is clammed up.

Doesn't make them look very bright though. It should not have been outside of their power to make Martin feel comfortable enough to share the info earlier. But we don't know what he had previously told the team. In cases like this it always seems like people share only a portion of what they know even when in trouble.

[pbmax]

Ya, Philbin could be in trouble.

I've been trying to remember, there was a story several years ago about one of the Packer assistants who had a severe speech impediment as a child (stuttering??), and my recollection is that it was Philbin. Does anyone else remember the article? If it was Philbin, you would think he might be more intuned to harassment/bullying issues, because he probably experienced them as well.

Do you think there is a chance people take this plus his child's death and decide he isn't really capable of handling complex management tasks?

Because while I do get a great guy vibe from Philbin, esp. from those who liked him with the Packers, I also get a troubled sense as well. Though that might only be because of two very noticeable, public incidents.

If he wins like Andy Reid, I suspect most will forget.

[pbmax]

Lots of speculation and emoting going on in this thread. I'll just wait for the facts.

It's quite possible that the situation isn't as sensational as it warrants. Did Martin overreact? I guess we will know when the details come out.

However, since the Dolphins suspended Incognito indefinitely, I think they owe their fans at least a cursory explanation of why they took that action. They won't provide one, probably under orders from the NFL legal brass, so we just have to wait and hope that the league will do a better job on this one than they did in the "Bounty-gate" scandal.

I have some hope for this as it doesn't directly pit the Commissioner and one of his pet projects against common sense. But its early.

[Patler]

I don't know. If Martin doesn't come forward with specifics (that it does now look like he has provided), no one else will do so. That leaves the team in the dark even if they know there is a player in trouble. Its a tough thing to look into if the primary source of info is clammed up.

Doesn't make them look very bright though. It should not have been outside of their power to make Martin feel comfortable enough to share the info earlier. But we don't know what he had previously told the team. In cases like this it always seems like people share only a portion of what they know even when in trouble.

I did see a couple articles last week that mentioned Martin had complained to the team previously. What that means, I have no clue. I don't expect them to provide details, nor do I think they should. Yesterday, articles mentioned that on Sunday, Martins representatives made formal complaints to the team, and shortly thereafter Incognito was suspended. Again, I don't expect details to be provided.

It's a messed up situation. I would hope a coach has better insight into his locker room than to let something like this fester for a year and a half. I would also hope that team leaders would step in before something got out of control. Even if Martin was thin-skinned, he is a team mate, and a line should be drawn by team leaders to protect him from a complete breakdown as occured.

[Kiwon]

It must have been extreme for a guy to react like he did and feel he had to leave the premises. Philbin has a big mess on his hands and he didn't handle it well at all. I can't imagine Joe had no clue this kind of crap wasn't going on.

Maybe the supposed bullying was extreme.....or maybe Martin is emotionally unstable.

Sorry, I don't buy the racial accusations. Richie Incognito's been a pro for 9 years in a sport that is what, 60-70% African-American? If he's this horrible person how come we haven't heard of it before now? How come we haven't heard about his former teammates or coaches making the same charges in the past?

Bill Romanowski was confronted after his spitting incident. Riley Cooper was confronted after his video of the N-word. And so a dangerous racist bully would sneak through for 9 years? No, sorry, don't think so.

Black players hear the N-word and worse things from their Black teammates EVERY DAY in practice or in the game because that's their vanacular. Same with most lyrics in Hip-Hop.

The media would love to make it racial so it fits their favorite template but I would really be surprised if the charges of racial harassment are accurate.

[pbmax]

Well, the cost of living in Miami is higher than Green Bay (or St. Louis):

Report: Miami rookies 'ATMs' for vets (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/jonathan-martin-richie-incognito-miami-dolphin-veterans-make-rookies-young-players-pay-30000-dollars-dinner-strip-club-110313)

A $30,000 rookie dinner. Rookies paying for excursions to strip clubs. This is about to get stupid as every club club outing will be reported as an example of players out of control.

Didn't they just bring Bryant McKinnie to the team?

[pbmax]

nm

[Zool]

Maybe the supposed bullying was extreme.....or maybe Martin is emotionally unstable.

Sorry, I don't buy the racial accusations. Richie Incognito's been a pro for 9 years in a sport that is what, 60-70% African-American? If he's this horrible person how come we haven't heard of it before now? How come we haven't heard about his former teammates or coaches making the same charges in the past?

Bill Romanowski was confronted after his spitting incident. Riley Cooper was confronted after his video of the N-word. And so a dangerous racist bully would sneak through for 9 years? No, sorry, don't think so.

Black players hear the N-word and worse things from their Black teammates EVERY DAY in practice or in the game because that's their vanacular. Same with most lyrics in Hip-Hop.

The media would love to make it racial so it fits their favorite template but I would really be surprised if the charges of racial harassment are accurate.

We will probably find out soon enough. Apparently Martin has voice mails and texts with racial statements and said they wanted him to shell out $15k for a Vegas trip.

Is it not possible this happens all the time and someone finally had enough and came forward?

[Tony Oday]

Rookies have to pay for this until the next rookies come, have you ever been apart of a team? We had initiation in both Football in HS and Rugby in college. I didn't have to spend $15k but did pay a shot tab of $100 and in college that WAS $15k.

[pbmax]

Rookies have to pay for this until the next rookies come, have you ever been apart of a team? We had initiation in both Football in HS and Rugby in college. I didn't have to spend $15k but did pay a shot tab of $100 and in college that WAS $15k.

Were you at the bar and drinking shots or were you home paying for shots being drunk in Vegas? :D

[green_bowl_packer]

Fruit doesn't fall far from the tree

Is Richie Incognito's Dad Blasting Jonathan Martin On Message Boards?

http://deadspin.com/is-richie-incognitos-dad-blasting-jonathan-martin-on-m-1457997230

Update: Adam Beasley of the Miami Herald spoke to the FinsHeaven board administrator. idrd1994 registered with a date of birth of 12/14/1949, which matches Richie Incognito Sr.'s birthday.

[George Cumby]

I don't know. If Martin doesn't come forward with specifics (that it does now look like he has provided), no one else will do so. That leaves the team in the dark even if they know there is a player in trouble. Its a tough thing to look into if the primary source of info is clammed up.

Doesn't make them look very bright though. It should not have been outside of their power to make Martin feel comfortable enough to share the info earlier. But we don't know what he had previously told the team. In cases like this it always seems like people share only a portion of what they know even when in trouble.

My thought is the coaching staff should have a much better feel for what was going on than they apparently did. Not having that finger on the pulse of the team suggests a certain cluelessness which bodes not well.

More concerning for the team, IMO, is at least some of the players thought that this was acceptable, or at the very least, thought they could get away with treating a teammate (s) in such a shoddy fashion. This suggests a lack of accountability on the team. It suggests a lack of leadership. It suggests a lack of common purpose, of direction, again, of leadership. Again, that reflects poorly on Philbin.

But it's all speculation at this point, we'll see what comes out in the next few days.

[Tony Oday]

Were you at the bar and drinking shots or were you home paying for shots being drunk in Vegas? :D

I like to party and I like me Jesus to party.

[denverYooper]

Rookies have to pay for this until the next rookies come, have you ever been apart of a team? We had initiation in both Football in HS and Rugby in college. I didn't have to spend $15k but did pay a shot tab of $100 and in college that WAS $15k.

Most people seem to be acknowledging the rookie tax and are fine with it. The problem here, from what I understand, is that it went well beyond that in terms of time and money. It'd be more like you paying $100 for shots, then $200 for a meal, $150 for a couple of hotel rooms on a different weekend, etc, etc.

[pbmax]

More concerning for the team, IMO, is at least some of the players thought that this was acceptable, or at the very least, thought they could get away with treating a teammate (s) in such a shoddy fashion. This suggests a lack of accountability on the team. It suggests a lack of leadership. It suggests a lack of common purpose, of direction, again, of leadership. Again, that reflects poorly on Philbin.

Well, that will be the rub as this story gains traction and heads over to the news division. In fact, I predict I will be mad at ALL general coverage of this issue by Wednesday.

This type of conduct IS normal to a point. All rookies pay for dinners. Packers have done this with Bach and with Jones and Boyd and KFC wings for the D lineman..

And I suspect the $30,000 dinner being reported in the Miami press isn't quite the story it sounds like. More than one rookie might have been paying and it could have been a dummy bill like Bach's experience. We also don't know how many people attended and eventually kicked in for it.

The difference would seem to be with Incognito that he got the money from someone not going on the trip and got the money by sending messages that I am sure he now regrets. Its hard to haze someone when they are not present. That crosses the line from prank to blackmail. You can't call it a bonding ritual when the kid isn't there.

[pbmax]

Well, here is someone who could be Incognito's Dad putting fuel into the furnace. Either that or a fantastic troll effort.

http://deadspin.com/is-richie-incognitos-dad-blasting-jonathan-martin-on-m-1457997230


Early this morning, a poster with the username "idrd1994" left an impassioned defense of Incognito on the FinHeaven message board. In it, he attacked both Martin and Mike Pouncey as "black brothers that do drugs on a regular basis," and asked readers to "pray [GM Jeff] Ireland and [coach Joe] Philbin die of AIDS." He blasts the team from top to bottom, claims Incognito is getting railroaded, and uses the "black people say the N-word in rap music" argument to dismiss claims that Incognito sent racial messages to Martin. He also implies that Martin has pondered suicide, and "does not belong in an NFL locker room."

There are details about how they trace this account to Incognito's Dad, but you should also be aware that before the complaint was lodged and evidence turned over and the suspension handed down, the poster thought the NFLPA would not touch this investigation with a ten foot pole because Martin has tried to commit suicide three times and all the Dolphins brass knows all about it.

[George Cumby]

The NFL: soap opera for men.

[KYPack]

Rookies have to pay for this until the next rookies come, have you ever been apart of a team? We had initiation in both Football in HS and Rugby in college. I didn't have to spend $15k but did pay a shot tab of $100 and in college that WAS $15k.

Those pranks and ribs can get out of hand.

There is a huge difference between a young boy having to do Zulu Warrior for his first try and the bullshit Incognito and his crew were doing down in Miami.

[denverYooper]

The NFL: soap opera for men.

Quiet! My stories are on.

[Patler]

Rookies have to pay for this until the next rookies come, have you ever been apart of a team? We had initiation in both Football in HS and Rugby in college. I didn't have to spend $15k but did pay a shot tab of $100 and in college that WAS $15k.

Martin isn't a rookie. Why does it continue? Recent articles say the LV trip was this summer, which would be after the new batch of rookies came in. So why did Martin have to play?

[green_bowl_packer]

Deadspin Article states - drug use (possibly Pouncey's on part too) and previous suicide attempts on Martins part . Incognito has a long history of douchbaggery and anger managment. Probably hosted Suh on his recruiting trip.

Roundup: Nebraska's Incognito indefinitely suspended
By Eric Olson, The Associated Press Updated 9/4/2004 11:36 PM
LINCOLN, Neb. — Center Richie Incognito has been suspended from the Nebraska football team for repeated violations of team policy, coach Bill Callahan announced after Wednesday's practice.
Callahan said he didn't know when, or if, Incognito would return to the team.

"I'm really disappointed because he's a really good player," Callahan said. "But no one is bigger than the team."

Callahan would not discuss the nature of Incognito's violations.

Incognito could not be reached for comment. His father, Richard, said he knew nothing about a suspension involving his son and that he has never spoken with Callahan.

"I'm not big into coaches I've never talked to," the elder Incognito said from his Arizona home.

Richard Incognito said he had spoken with his son Wednesday but that they didn't discuss his status on the team.

"Me and my son don't talk about the football team," Incognito said. "We talk about fly fishing and stereos."

The 6-foot-3, 300-pound junior from Glendale, Ariz., was a first-team All-Big 12 selection last year by The Associated Press.

A left tackle his first two years in the Nebraska program, Incognito moved to center last spring.

Kurt Mann, a sophomore from Grand Island, will start at center in Saturday's opener against Western Illinois.

Richie Incognito's name did not appear on this week's depth chart, but Callahan on Tuesday would not disclose the reason.

After walking off the practice field Wednesday, Callahan told reporters that he had notified Incognito on Tuesday afternoon that he was indefinitely suspended. Incognito was not at practice Wednesday.

Incognito ran into problems with the law in February when was charged with three counts of assault stemming from a fight at a party. He was found guilty of one misdemeanor assault charge after a three-day trial in June and paid a $500 fine upon his conviction. Another charge was dismissed and he was found innocent of the second charge.

In the spring of 2003, former coach Frank Solich suspended Incognito for unspecified reasons. Incognito was reinstated and went on to start all 13 games last season.

In an interview before last season, Incognito said he planned to be more disciplined in every phase of his life.

"I've got to tone it down a little," he said at the time.

As a freshman in 2002, he was ejected from the Penn State game for fighting. He was suspended for the first half of the Iowa State game the following week.

On another occasion, Incognito was caught spitting on an opposing player. He also got into a scuffle in last year's Alamo Bowl game against Michigan State.

Incognito entered this fall on the Rimington Award Watch list as one of the nation's top centers. Two preseason publications listed him as one of the nation's top five players at his position.

[KYPack]

Big Richie is a total asshole.

In addition to the stuff Green Bowl posted, he was tossed out of the Oregon football program after Nebraska got rid of him.

Then St Louis cut him in the NFL for various bits of thuggery.

Buffalo didn't re-sign him and then he went to Miami.

This guy is a bully and a thug.

The stuff we know about him is the shit he was caught for.

There have long been lots of rumors about fist fights and other crazy shit that he skated on.

He actually is a pretty good player, but he's so destructive to any team he is on, it ain't worth having him.

[Old School]

Herm Edwards and Mike Ditka spoke on this today.(Mike & Mike) Edwards acknowledged rookies "buying", but said that accounting for inflation food/salary this seems beyond the line. They both said that while the locker room belongs to the players, coaches know all that is going on because strength and training staffs hear conversations and talk with players daily. Anything over the line/detrimental to the team gets communicated to the HC.

Ditka said he would immediately step in to stop, without question, anything that could destroy team chemistry. He said the rule is as long as a player is a team member, he must be respected and treated as part of the team. (paraphrased)

[Bossman641]

What do I win for guessing Incognito?

[Zool]

What do I win for guessing Incognito?

You get to buy me a vacation.

[green_bowl_packer]

Big Richie is a total asshole.

In addition to the stuff Green Bowl posted, he was tossed out of the Oregon football program after Nebraska got rid of him.

Then St Louis cut him in the NFL for various bits of thuggery.

Buffalo didn't re-sign him and then he went to Miami.

This guy is a bully and a thug.

The stuff we know about him is the shit he was caught for.

There have long been lots of rumors about fist fights and other crazy shit that he skated on.

He actually is a pretty good player, but he's so destructive to any team he is on, it ain't worth having him.

Kudos bossman!!!! You're a great judge of character.

KY All true!!! But wait there's more . . .

Richie Incognito Punched Security Guard at Hotel Nightclub Before Training Camp
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1746050-richie-incognito-punched-security-guard-at-hotel-nightclub-before-training-camp

And This . . . (What do you do to someone in a preseason game that makes them want to take your head off with your own helmet)
Report: Antonio Smith to be suspended for swing at Richie Incognito
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/08/20/report-antonio-smith-to-be-suspended-for-swing-at-richie-incognito/

Video of the Smith helmet swing (if Smith connected we wouldn't be talking about this today)
http://msn.foxsports.com/watch/fox-football-daily/video?vid=%20e56cc828-d4e3-492e-80bb-9c71172e13b3

Seahawks players criticized Incognito before a game in 2008, accusing him of jumping late onto piles, twisting ankles and scratching necks.

"You know, like the FBI's 20 Most Wanted? Yeah, he'd be on that list," Seahawks linebacker Julian Peterson said.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4745760

2005 NY Jets draft talk - The Italian Jets fans, didn't even want this guy.
http://www.jetsinsider.com/forums/threads/89027-Richie-Incognito-Update

I'll take my 2 hour penalty for piling on.

[pbmax]

Fruit doesn't fall far from the tree

Is Richie Incognito's Dad Blasting Jonathan Martin On Message Boards?

http://deadspin.com/is-richie-incognitos-dad-blasting-jonathan-martin-on-m-1457997230

Update: Adam Beasley of the Miami Herald spoke to the FinsHeaven board administrator. idrd1994 registered with a date of birth of 12/14/1949, which matches Richie Incognito Sr.'s birthday.

sorry gbp for duplicating your post.

[pbmax]

Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 6m
NFL has heard Richie Incognito's VM to Jonathan Martin. Dolphins have heard the voice mail.

The world has officially turned into high school. Maybe even middle school.

[pbmax]

Whoa, Schefter has a (guessing partial) transcript of the voice mail:

Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 9m
1: Richie Incognito left this VM for Jonathan Martin in April 2013: "Hey, wassup, you half n----- piece of (expletive)...

Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 9m
2. More Incognito to Martin: "I saw you on Twitter, you been training ten weeks. (I want to) (expletive) in your (expl) mouth....

Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 9m
3. Incognito VM to Martin: "(I'm going to) slap your (expletive) mouth. (I'm going to) slap your real mother across the face (laughter).

Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 8m
4. Incognito to Martin, all on same VM in April 2013: "(Expletive) you, you're still a rookie. I'll kill you."

[pbmax]

Albert Breer ‏@AlbertBreer 50m
Martin only turned over texts/vm's to parents Sat, then to NFL/Dolphins Sunday. As @MikeGarafolo said, racially charged comments in there.

Yeah, the kid was sitting on some of this stuff.

[Pugger]

Good God, this goes WAAAYYYY beyond hazing.

[green_bowl_packer]

sorry gbp for duplicating your post.
No worries pb, great minds think alike :five:

http://dougernst.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/francis.jpg?w=300&h=209

I see a resemblance with Francis. !#$@ this Incognito guy - time wounds all heels.

Man, I can't wait for tonight!

[PA Pack Fan]

Maybe the supposed bullying was extreme.....or maybe Martin is emotionally unstable.

Sorry, I don't buy the racial accusations. Richie Incognito's been a pro for 9 years in a sport that is what, 60-70% African-American? If he's this horrible person how come we haven't heard of it before now? How come we haven't heard about his former teammates or coaches making the same charges in the past?

Bill Romanowski was confronted after his spitting incident. Riley Cooper was confronted after his video of the N-word. And so a dangerous racist bully would sneak through for 9 years? No, sorry, don't think so.

Black players hear the N-word and worse things from their Black teammates EVERY DAY in practice or in the game because that's their vanacular. Same with most lyrics in Hip-Hop.

The media would love to make it racial so it fits their favorite template but I would really be surprised if the charges of racial harassment are accurate.

WTF? Seriously?

[Tony Oday]

Herm Edwards and Mike Ditka spoke on this today.(Mike & Mike) Edwards acknowledged rookies "buying", but said that accounting for inflation food/salary this seems beyond the line. They both said that while the locker room belongs to the players, coaches know all that is going on because strength and training staffs hear conversations and talk with players daily. Anything over the line/detrimental to the team gets communicated to the HC.

Ditka said he would immediately step in to stop, without question, anything that could destroy team chemistry. He said the rule is as long as a player is a team member, he must be respected and treated as part of the team. (paraphrased)

Ditka said he would punch him in the face if someone tried to bully him.

If it was after camp then he shouldnt have to pay because that's the new rookies job.

[Guiness]

Sorry, I don't buy the racial accusations. Richie Incognito's been a pro for 9 years in a sport that is what, 60-70% African-American? If he's this horrible person how come we haven't heard of it before now? How come we haven't heard about his former teammates or coaches making the same charges in the past?


Actually, there's been quite a bit out there for a while. Generally regarded as one of the dirtiest players on the field (accused of jumping on piles late, scratching in piles). Kicked off two college teams I believe? Rams released him before his contract was up, Bills didn't resign him after 1 year. No shortage of trouble off the field either.

[red]

and now the final nail has been driven home

dolphins announce they are done with congnito
what a piece of shit this guy is. and can the other guy actually come back to the team after all this? i would doubt it.

in a matter of days the phins just lost half their offensive line

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/04/report-dolphins-are-done-with-incognito/

[red]

josh brown, the giants kicker and a teammate of richie in college and in the pros really had some interesting things to say


“None of it shocks me,” Brown said, via the New York Daily News. “I don’t know any details obviously. The league hasn’t released anything. But Richie seems to be a person with a tortured soul. He’s had these issues for quite awhile and it’s sad.”


“he’s really got some demons that are out of the building.”

[hoosier]

and now the final nail has been driven home

dolphins announce they are done with congnito
what a piece of shit this guy is. and can the other guy actually come back to the team after all this? i would doubt it.


http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/04/report-lions-are-interested-in-incognito/

And the Lions are said to be poised to swoop in and claim him the moment he is cut.

[pbmax]

And here is how Incognito keeps working:

Jim Trotter ‏@SI_JimTrotter 3h
Said one personnel man (who's not alone): "Instead of being a man and confronting him, (Martin) acted like a coward and told like a kid."

Jim Trotter ‏@SI_JimTrotter 3h
Another: "Incognito is an A-Hole, however I'm pretty sure you would want him beside you if you are in a bar fight. Tough as nails."

Jim Trotter ‏@SI_JimTrotter 3h
Also: "You handle it in house (fight, handle it on the field, joke about it, etc.) and keep it moving."


Amazing what some teams will put up with. Heard today Tony Dungy said they had Incognito down as "DND-C": Do Not Draft - Character. Piloi said NE didn't like him either.

Pioli also said KC feared Martin was very smart and too sensitive.

[red]

and the media should be making a giant stink about what those personal men said, they should dig and find out who they are and their teams need to fire them

[Guiness]

and now the final nail has been driven home

dolphins announce they are done with congnito
what a piece of shit this guy is. and can the other guy actually come back to the team after all this? i would doubt it.

in a matter of days the phins just lost half their offensive line

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/04/report-dolphins-are-done-with-incognito/

Pathetic part is how long it took anyone to act on it. This is like the bounty thing, everyone knows, nobody does anything than everyone acts shocked when the story comes out. Floria had it right, he's probably played his last NFL game, but that has a lot more to do with being a mediocre 30year old guard than anything else.

I'm actually wavering a bit on this now. What Incognito did was despicable...in civilized society. NFL players are pretty much outside of civilized society most of the time. KYPack mention 'big fat greasy fuckers picking on you' in an earlier post. Maybe if you can't tolerate that, you don't have a place in the NFL? I think Incognito exposed Martin, and his career is over as well.

[green_bowl_packer]

http://www.nfl.com/incognito

This is a pro-Incognito article that is a total joke and published on NFL website, written after the night club fight, and the preseason game fight with Smith as both are mentioned and blown off.

Pensive looking photo of him staring out at the ocean. Seems like a contract year PR puff piece making excuses for his past behavior and how he fixed it all - meditation CD's from Ricky Williams (blames self medicating with MJ prior to joining Miami, though his dad slammed Martin and Pouncey for the same), Depak Chopra 21 day meditation challenges, and a prescription for Paxil that was a miracle for him (allegedly). Total crock.

[pbmax]

Sounds like the Dad is as hurt and defensive as his son. He claims Martin shouldn't be believed because he uses drugs with Pouncey. But his son admitted this in the offseason:


Very few know how deep and dark it got for Richie Incognito, a man once voted by his peers as the NFL's dirtiest player, who couldn't manage his temper, who turned to marijuana for comfort, who had no idea how to find balance, on or off the field.

[and]

The truth is, after a decade of anger management issues and substance abuse nearly cost him his job in football, Incognito was actually on his way to finding it.

http://www.nfl.com/qs/__min/Incognito_Article_2/index.html

[pbmax]

http://www.nfl.com/incognito

This is a pro-Incognito article that is a total joke and published on NFL website, written after the night club fight, and the preseason game fight with Smith as both are mentioned and blown off.

Pensive looking photo of him staring out at the ocean. Seems like a contract year PR puff piece making excuses for his past behavior and how he fixed it all - meditation CD's from Ricky Williams (blames self medicating with MJ prior to joining Miami, though his dad slammed Martin and Pouncey for the same), Depak Chopra 21 day meditation challenges, and a prescription for Paxil that was a miracle for him (allegedly). Total crock.

Stop reading my web history.

Piece is favorable, but it covers a few things that put the lie to his supposed turnaround in retrospect. I don't think Dad is helping when he tells a young pee-wee footballer:


When Richie Sr. felt like his son was getting overshadowed in youth league football because he wasn't one of the coaches' kids, the dad reminded Richie Jr. that he'd get his chance someday.

"I'd try to cheer him up," said Richie Sr., who is now a custom pool builder in Arizona. "I'd tell him, 'Payback is going to come, Richie. When it's time for you to have your payback, you open up the gates of hell and make them stare at the devil.'

[Smidgeon]

and the media should be making a giant stink about what those personal men said, they should dig and find out who they are and their teams need to fire them

No kidding.

[red]

yeah, richie SR. sounds like a fucking nut job

http://deadspin.com/is-richie-incognitos-dad-blasting-jonathan-martin-on-m-1457997230

http://www.everyjoe.com/2013/11/04/sports/richie-incognito-sr-father-quotes-idrd1994-finheaven/#1


"philbin, go ahead, deny that, if you do, may god bless you with a desease worse then AIDS"


Incognito has been let hang out to dry and me personally, pray ireland and philbin die of AIDS

heres one readers response to the articleby someone named baddoggy, i love it


So his rant includes references about using "N-word" and wishing people die of AIDS? I'm surprised there is nothing degrading women in his rant as he would have won a trifecta of "how to make yourself look like a fucking idiot in a argument"

[green_bowl_packer]

Stop reading my web history.

Piece is favorable, but it covers a few things that put the lie to his supposed turnaround in retrospect. I don't think Dad is helping when he tells a young pee-wee footballer:

http://www.nfl.com/qs/qsassets/images/section10_main.jpg

I don't know how to use multi-quote feel like a noob! duh!

We must have the same tabs open or same searches.

Yeah the old man definitely gives off a Great Santini vibe.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view4/4611276/the-great-santini-o.gif

[KYPack]

The old man is just as big a nut job as the kid.

On a Fin Forum he says that Joe Philbin's kid was on crack and killed himself jumping in a river.

Good job, dickhead, stay classy.

The Fins will welcome the kid back, now.

[red]

in this case i think we can say, the piece of shit doesn't fall far from the horses ass

[CaptainKickass]

1. dingleberry
A delinquent partial turd which grasps anal shrubery causing brownish crust to accumulate in ones boxers.
My wife tells me that I need to wipe my ass better because my dingleberries are making my underware a nasty mess, however I like the idea of her down in the basement doing laundry and cleaning up my foul nasty underware.
by JGB April 17, 2003

2. dingleberry
n. - a Klingon near Uranus
Spock needed to tear off a piece of toilet paper for his next mission - elimination of the dingleberry orbiting the black hole.
turd poop shit crap caca
by Zorra September 27, 2005

3. dingleberry
A smallish, semi-dry, extraordinarily tenacious remnant of fecal matter which, when unwittingly rolled into a mixture with toilet paper lint by the action of wiping, becomes almost irremovably entangled among ones anal hair, a situationality exacerbated by the vigorous chafing and friction between the buttocks and most commonly remedied by the sad and almost entirely unavoidable remedy of plucking out at its root the individual hair to which each dingleberry is conjoined. Of related interest, dingleberries are often noted as having the vague odor of undigested corn or peanuts.
*Plink*

Ouch! Son of a bitch, that hurt!

Then, dingleberry is uphelp by a coarse and curly hair between the fingers about 6 inches in front of the face and marveled at by the viewer, who experiences waves of anger, wonder, and bitterness while contemplating in earnest the sordid and very stupid affair of shaving the unfortunate crease in his or her own ass.

:butt:

[Kiwon]

The NFL: soap opera for men.

That's true.

[pbmax]

The old man is just as big a nut job as the kid.

On a Fin Forum he says that Joe Philbin's kid was on crack and killed himself jumping in a river.

Good job, dickhead, stay classy.

The Fins will welcome the kid back, now.

Exactly. He was drunk and it was a lake.

[Kiwon]

WR Mike Wallace: "I love Richie....I wish he was here right now."

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000276773/article/richie-incognito-has-support-in-dolphins-locker-room

Here's an earlier video of Richie Incognito dealing with a tiff with Mike Wallace. Yeah, he looks like an out-of-control, closet Klansman.....not. He looks and sounds like a football player.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-around-the-league/0ap2000000254952/Richie-Incognito-Not-worried-about-Mike-Wallace-s-comments

[Joemailman]

The issue is not if he gets along with Mike Wallace.

[Kiwon]

The issue is not if he gets along with Mike Wallace.

Yeah, his alleged racism seems to be the issue and if he was in fact this overt racist I say that he would not have the support of any of his Dolphin teammates or had lasted in the league for 9 years. Do you actually think in today's age of grievance and instant communication that Black athletes would remain silent and tolerate such things without complaint?

The narrative doesn't ring true to me at this point. There's more to the story, particularly on Martin's side.

[Pugger]

If you look at Incognito's past he has bounced around from one team to another. He might be a good player but his behavior leaves a lot to be desired. Like the guys on ESPN said last night, what in the hell was going on in that locker room? They said normally team leaders police this kind of crap and/or equipment guys/trainers hear this stuff and tell the HC about it. If Philbin knew this was going on and did nothing his job might be in jeopardy.

[KYPack]

Kiwon.

He was a racist bastard to the max.

Here's a vid of him calling Mike Pouncey "N" from a few weeks ago.

http://www.tmz.com/2013/11/04/richie-incognito-n-word-bar-rage-video/

The fact that he lasted this long is a tribute to his Darwinian ability to survive, but doesn't explain away his behavior.

[Cheesehead Craig]

He's done. Miami's going to release him and I'd be shocked if any team came near him ever again.

[pbmax]

Yeah, his alleged racism seems to be the issue and if he was in fact this overt racist I say that he would not have the support of any of his Dolphin teammates or had lasted in the league for 9 years. Do you actually think in today's age of grievance and instant communication that Black athletes would remain silent and tolerate such things without complaint?

The narrative doesn't ring true to me at this point. There's more to the story, particularly on Martin's side.

I am going to confidently say that threatening to kill someone and harm family members will get him into as much trouble as the racism, whether overt in this case or not.

[Guiness]

Yeah, his alleged racism seems to be the issue and if he was in fact this overt racist I say that he would not have the support of any of his Dolphin teammates or had lasted in the league for 9 years. Do you actually think in today's age of grievance and instant communication that Black athletes would remain silent and tolerate such things without complaint?

The narrative doesn't ring true to me at this point. There's more to the story, particularly on Martin's side.

I agree that he is not likely an overt racist, seems like he just uses it as an insult of convenience, and would refer to anyone he butts heads with by a derogatory racial slur.

As far as him 'getting along' with Mike Wallace and other people saying he's a good guy to have around, well, guys like that can be. I spent a year and a half in a Russian town that was a former military base and coal mining region. When I went out, I didn't mind having some pretty dodgy characters with me, and some of their antics were pretty funny. Be friendly with them, buy a couple of rounds, keeps anyone from messing with you. Doesn't make them decent human beings.

[Zool]

Good lord. This thread is revealing. Some people (Kiwon) will make a counter argument no matter the situation.

[pbmax]

I think Incognito's work history also says something about how he wears out his welcome, whether its his racism or simply his lack of self control.

Nebraska (kicked off team after suspensions)
Oregon (2004)
St. Louis Rams (2005–2009)
Buffalo Bills (2009)
Miami Dolphins (2010–present)

Pro Bowl talent and will be off his third pro team. And even Nebraska couldn't protect him and they had Christian Peter.

[NewsBruin]

With the ESPN/Fox/Incognito Sr. leaks coming out daily, we'll see more and more nuances to this story.

It reads to me that:

Incognito is a chippy bastard who'll say anything to get under someone's skin, and probably an intolerably offensive a-hole who should have been taken to the woodshed by his teammates. I don't know if he's racist, because I don't know if he really likes anyone other than his dad.

The Dolphins' o-line is ignorant, passive, complicit, or just lacking any kind of positive leadership. I'll throw in the position coaches and the QB, too, because he should be a leader (and I hate Aggies). Someone in that group should have put the muzzle on Incognito and walked Martin through how to stand up for himself.

Martin has some personal issues he needs to take care of before he laces up his spikes again. I'm not saying he deserved any treatment beyond what the Pack did to their rooks, but an NFL football club is an inherently pressure-filled and anxiety-causing workplace (especially a chronically-losing one), and if he's abusing (as opposed to recreationally using) drugs and attempting suicide, he needs to get the hell out, for his own good.

I agree that the story will swing too much to the "bullying" angle, without taking Martin's other issues into account, out of "don't blame the victim" fear. I don't want him rushed back into the lineup until he's strong enough in himself to not be a suicide risk.

The cool thing about this thread (and this topic, nationally), is that we bring our experiences to the table and can't separate our history from our response. I was bullied in middle and high school, and I brought it on because I thought so Iowly of myself. I kept waiting for someone to stand up for me and tell me I deserved to be respected. Also, I was short, fat, and believed that fighting back was wrong. It didn't help that my parents didn't have an answer, and the only responses I ever got from authority were "Just kick his ass back, and stop bothering me" or "I don't want to get involved, I don't care, stop bothering me."

And since I saw myself as a perpetual victim, I gave myself a pass when I was an asshole to others.

It wasn't until college, when I lost weight, got (and lost) girlfriends, got (and lost) jobs, and had a really infuriating experience with an HR head, that I realized how I had to respect and stand up for myself, rather than wait for Superman to come save me.

It sucks that Martin has to play for the same team that has Incognito, a n00b QB, and a coaching and front office staff that is (or damn well should be) concerned with their jobs on a weekly basis. He deserves a veteran lineman to take him under his wing and teach him how to believe in himself in a lockerroom full of thugs and Neanderthals. But that probably won't happen with the Dolphins, and that's what an imperfect world of fallible humans is like.

I wish I could eradicate bullying in all levels of life, and I think a "no tolerance" policy should be in place in the NFL, with a defined chain of reporting and accountability from top to bottom -- but I can't count on that, and I think all the good intentions will never erase it from society. I think more time should be devoted to teaching people how to make themselves unattractive bullying targets and how to not be passive bystanders when they see it happening to someone else. I'm just concerned if all this comes out to "target the bully" without helping the targets and bystanders see their role in the environment.

[NewsBruin]

Good gravy, that was long. My apologies.

[George Cumby]

Incognito is the face of this, but my question is this: where was the rest of the team? What were the veteran leaders of this team doing? From what little we have, at the very least, they were complicit by their inaction. Were they so stupid that they didn't discern that this was degrading to a toxic level? Were they joining in the fun? Or we're they just glad that they weren't the targets?

[pbmax]

Great post NB.

Agree, Martin has some work to do before he returns and that the Dolphins dropped the ball from stem to stern. Really disappointed in Philbin. Martin's early return would probably not serve him well at all. It might be that the best thing Martin did (as far as we know) is to pull himself from a situation he was not able to handle. He simply may not have been ready to be a pro except in more ideal circumstances.

Also like your take that everyone has some responsibility here. The individual AND the team/coaches/teammates. People cannot simply hope the kid learns to deal with it, they need some assistance. But the situation will be repeated until the individual learns to stand up for themselves and how to get into a better situation.

[Kiwon]

Kiwon.

He was a racist bastard to the max.

Here's a vid of him calling Mike Pouncey "N" from a few weeks ago.

http://www.tmz.com/2013/11/04/richie-incognito-n-word-bar-rage-video/

The fact that he lasted this long is a tribute to his Darwinian ability to survive, but doesn't explain away his behavior.

Yeah, he's an a-hole and a drunk one at that in the video. By the way, did you see anyone take offense at what he said? I didn't. They all talk trash.

If the N-word uttered on a pro football team makes someone racist then you are talking about what, 70% of players guilty of racism? In the course of a day, who uses that language more, Whites or Blacks? You know the answer.

Yeah, the guy's a jerk, but I have a question for you. If the same words that he supposedly said to Martin were said by a Black player, do you think the media's reaction would be different? It would not even be a blip on the radar.

The focus should be on threatening and menacing behavior, veteran to rookie (or young player, in this case). Hazing can be serious (Hello, Florida A&M). It can also be expensive for the rookies as many have attested.

[pbmax]

If the N-word uttered on a pro football team makes someone racist then you are talking about what, 70% of players guilty of racism? In the course of a day, who uses that language more, Whites or Blacks? You know the answer.

You keep going back to this point like you have just discovered cold fusion. Context matters. 90% of that language just washes away because the listener judges the context harmless. When you are threatening someone with physical harm AND using racially charged language, you no longer are going to get the benefit of the doubt.


Yeah, the guy's a jerk, but I have a question for you. If the same words that he supposedly said to Martin were said by a Black player, do you think the media's reaction would be different? It would not even be a blip on the radar..

Maybe not because 70% of the audience wouldn't not identify as closely with the story. However, the bullying angle probably means its a bigger deal than you expect because talk radio and the Internet (including here) are awash in people's own experiences with bullying.

But the biggest story of all would be if Martin had threatened to kill Incognito in retaliation. That would be a story that burned for six months.

[Kiwon]

Good lord. This thread is revealing. Some people (Kiwon) will make a counter argument no matter the situation.

No, Kiwon, can think for himself and not be swayed by the PC template before the facts are in. I still say there is no way a dangerous racist makes it 9 years in a NFL locker room without being exposed.

Bullying, hazing, senior to junior, is a serious problem in Asia, particularly in Confucian societies. In the Korean military, deaths from hazing are not uncommon. Hazing can get out of control if left unchecked. Martin still hasn't shared in detail exactly what happened, when it transpired and his reaction to each incident, has he? In reality, just how serious was the problem? That should be the focus. Was it just trash talk from an idiot or was it something more and who else was involved?

[Noodle]

Agree with PB, great post NB. Terrific insights and honesty -- I wish I had my shite as squared away as you.

Kiwon, brother, do you really not get it? Really? Quick history lesson: White people owned black people in this country for around 250 years, then treated black people as a separate, inferior race for around another 100 years. White people used the N-word to describe their black slaves, and after slavery, continued to used the N word as a derogatory term for black people. I'm a white Southerner of a certain age, and I can say with some confidence that no white person used the N word as a term of affection or brotherhood for a black person. So can you see how use of the N word by a white person to describe a black person might be a little different than when black people use it to refer to themselves?

As to Incognito, yeah, I'm pretty sure he backs baseline negative or positive assumptions about people based on the color of their skin, so yes, he's a racist. But a lot of people are unconsciously racist to some degree (come on, like you don't think all Asians are wicked smart at math?). What makes Incognito truly contemptible is that he's cruel.

[Kiwon]

You keep going back to this point like you have just discovered cold fusion. Context matters. 90% of that language just washes away because the listener judges the context harmless. When you are threatening someone with physical harm AND using racially charged language, you no longer are going to get the benefit of the doubt.



Maybe not because 70% of the audience wouldn't not identify as closely with the story. However, the bullying angle probably means its a bigger deal than you expect because talk radio and the Internet (including here) are awash in people's own experiences with bullying.

But the biggest story of all would be if Martin had threatened to kill Incognito in retaliation. That would be a story that burned for six months.

No, I wouldn't want Richie Incognito as my neighbor, but the low-hanging fruit here is the boilerplate "he bullied because he is a racist."

Really? What other Black teammate did he persecute? Where is the line of his victims over the past nine years? Why isn't he universally hatred in the lockerroom?

In my opinion, if he bullied, he did so because he's a jerk, not because he's a racist, circa 1865 or 1965. In all the years that Richie Incognito has been playing football, which do you think he has more of, White teammates or Black teammates?

[hoosier]

Good lord. This thread is revealing. Some people (Kiwon) will make a counter argument no matter the situation.

No they won't.

[Kiwon]

Agree with PB, great post NB. Terrific insights and honesty -- I wish I had my shite as squared away as you.

Kiwon, brother, do you really not get it? Really? Quick history lesson: White people owned black people in this country for around 250 years, then treated black people as a separate, inferior race for around another 100 years. White people used the N-word to describe their black slaves, and after slavery, continued to used the N word as a derogatory term for black people. I'm a white Southerner of a certain age, and I can say with some confidence that no white person used the N word as a term of affection or brotherhood for a black person. So can you see how use of the N word by a white person to describe a black person might be a little different than when black people use it to refer to themselves?

As to Incognito, yeah, I'm pretty sure he backs baseline negative or positive assumptions about people based on the color of their skin, so yes, he's a racist. But a lot of people are unconsciously racist to some degree (come on, like you don't think all Asians are wicked smart at math?). What makes Incognito truly contemptible is that he's cruel.

You know Keith Richards snorted the ashes of his cremated father, right?

Your history lesson is basically right......but the BS talk on a football team knows no racial boundaries. They're brothers fighting together every week.

But if on a football team, admist all the N-words flying around by Black teammates, a foul-mouthed Richie Incognito says the same things, do you really think they care? N-word is off the table for Whites but people of all races can call each other "bitches" and "M-Fers". Those insults are acceptable by all races?

In 2013, 'Nigger' is not acceptable by Whites or Blacks equally alike. It's not acceptable in popular music either. I think one standard should apply to all.

But, wait, it doesn't, does it? There are double-standards and exceptions apparently allowed. Again, Richie Incognito did not last 9 years in the NFL if he were a dangerous racist.

[pbmax]

No, I wouldn't want Richie Incognito as my neighbor, but the low-hanging fruit here is the boilerplate "he bullied because he is a racist."

Really? What other Black teammate did he persecute? Where is the line of his victims over the past nine years? Why isn't he universally hatred in the lockerroom?


Who are you arguing with this? Has anyone claimed to be interested in the bullying and harassment only if it was racially motivated? And is a lack of support for institutionalized racism really a mitigating factor here?

He is a Pro Bowl caliber player who was on several teams Do Not Draft lists. He has been with 3 teams in his professional career and is about to be dumped by the second of those three. The team that did not dump him? He played for 3 games for the Bills.

He is the definition of an asshat. No matter what degree his racism ranks him.

[pbmax]

In 2013, 'Nigger' is not acceptable by Whites or Blacks equally alike. It's not acceptable in popular music either. I think one standard should apply to all.

One standard for language? Incognito is some kind of victim because he is too dumb to decode language in a social setting? That's a pretty low level to hold someone to Kiwon.

Context is king. Try this as an experiment for the next two weeks and report back the results.

Refer to any females you meet (older or younger) as "Sweetie". Refer to all males as "boy". See what diverse reactions you get and let us know how it goes. Language is a two way street and the person you are communicating with is half the equation.

I guarantee you people will care. Same as some of Incognito's teammates cared. Politeness and the locker room code might prevent us from knowing, but they care.

[Kiwon]

How Richie Incognito became NFL’s No. 1 villain

http://nypost.com/2013/11/05/how-richie-incognito-became-nfls-no-1-villain/

Yeah, look at them. The spider and the fly. Do you psychologists know how many hours these two spent together? Most people with any degree of coping skills know how to handle being stuck with a difficult person. Was Incognito a dangerous psyco? Did Martin do what he had to do or did he overreact? Who knows until the full story comes out.
http://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/martin1.jpg?w=680&h=450&crop=1

[run pMc]

IIRC Kerry Collins and Riley Cooper got a pretty chilly receptions for their use of the N-word a solid decade apart. Rightly or no, if Incognito gets the same treatment I won't be surprised.
The bullying angle is awfully hard to avoid. If you prefer, replace "bully" with "abusive", since that's what his language and behavior suggests. It seems he's been exposed to this by his father, and it's what he feels compelled to perpetuate on others.

Martin has a role in this as well. Why didn't he say no to the Vegas money, especially since he wasn't invited?

One needs therapy and medication, the other needs assertiveness training.

[Kiwon]

One standard for language? Incognito is some kind of victim because he is too dumb to decode language in a social setting? That's a pretty low level to hold someone to Kiwon.

Context is king. Try this as an experiment for the next two weeks and report back the results.

Refer to any females you meet (older or younger) as "Sweetie". Refer to all males as "boy". See what diverse reactions you get and let us know how it goes. Language is a two way street and the person you are communicating with is half the equation.

I guarantee you people will care. Same as some of Incognito's teammates cared. Politeness and the locker room code might prevent us from knowing, but they care.

No, one standard for THAT racially-charge word.

It's 2013, not 1965. Change HAS come or hadn't you noticed?

[pbmax]

I think you will get one standard for that word when similar percentages of both groups agree on proper context. On a smaller scale, among friends, that probably already exists. Larger scale, like a football team with diverse backgrounds? Likelier to take longer.

However, I would bet the term "half-n****r" will take even longer to gain acceptance because its a specific slur against mixed race parentage. I doubt many people who use this term think its benign.

And let's use Incognito's term to bring this back around to the main topic. Incognito was using that term while communicating a threat of violence. And it wasn't done in the rowdy environs of the lockerrom. He sent him a text message in April while trying to collect $15,000 for a Vegas trip Martin didn't want to be a part of. Forget about the racial aspect to this, how about extortion?

[pbmax]

Profile on Martin from his High School coach.

http://blogs.palmbeachpost.com/thedailydolphin/2013/11/05/jonathan-martins-high-school-coach-bullies-usually-go-after-people-like-him/

[KYPack]

Kiwon, you are a great poster on this forum.

On this issue, you are out your mind.

[Noodle]

You know Keith Richards snorted the ashes of his cremated father, right?

Your history lesson is basically right......but the BS talk on a football team knows no racial boundaries. They're brothers fighting together every week.

But if on a football team, admist all the N-words flying around by Black teammates, a foul-mouthed Richie Incognito says the same things, do you really think they care? N-word is off the table for Whites but people of all races can call each other "bitches" and "M-Fers". Those insults are acceptable by all races?

Kiwon, I know from other posts that you're a person of good will with your own life experiences that inform your views. But I'm not sure you've been a non-black guy in a majority black football locker room. I was. In the South. I heard the N word used all the time by my black teammates when talking to each other. I never took that as permission that I could use it, and neither I nor my white teammates (even the huge dudes) ever did. In fact, I remember a brawl nearly breaking out when a white teammate talked about the movie Pumping Iron and its star, Arnold Schwarzenegger. Seems a black teammate heard only the last part of Arnold's last name, and instantly, all that teammate brotherhood went out the window. We got the misunderstanding cleared up without a punch thrown, but it was a near thing.

As to Keef, he later admitted he was just talking shite about snorting his old man's ashes, but I'm not sure I buy his disavowal.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Kiwon, you are a great poster on this forum.

On this issue, you are out your mind.

He must be, because I kinda agree with him. There has been a rush to judgement.

If we took all of Madtown's words at face value, he too would be banned from society. Wait a sec, guess that is a very bad example.

It is possible that Incognito (what a name!) is a racist, evil guy. I'm not ruling that out. He also might be a joker with a dark sense of humor and insensitive. What he was did was bad, for sure, I just don't know where to put him on the scale. I for one am not damning his soul to hell.

[Noodle]

What he was did was bad, for sure, I just don't know where to put him on the scale. I for one am not damning his soul to hell.

Yeah, but Blue Dog, you dry hump people's legs and eat your own feces, so how much weight am I supposed to give your opinion?

BTW, great link, PB, to the High School coach, who sounds like a great guy (wish I had him instead of the rock head who coached me). Kind of confirms my thoughts about a guy with Martin's background trying to deal with a very different world.

[hoosier]

He must be, because I kinda agree with him. There has been a rush to judgement.

If we took all of Madtown's words at face value, he too would be banned from society. Wait a sec, guess that is a very bad example.

It is possible that Incognito (what a name!) is a racist, evil guy. I'm not ruling that out. He also might be a joker with a dark sense of humor and insensitive. What he was did was bad, for sure, I just don't know where to put him on the scale. I for one am not damning his soul to hell.

He could be one or the other (could be meat, could be cake) but Incognito definitely smells like a turd. As for the N word thing, I am sure most if not all of us would be happy to see it disappear from all walks of life. But anyone who cannot grasp the difference between a white guy saying it to a black guy and a black guy saying a variation ("nigga," not "nigger") to another black guy is just stubbornly refusing to use their brain.

[Zool]

Guy is a very good NFL player who can't stick with a team and couldn't stick with a team in college. If you're an exceptional athlete you get chance after chance before people give up on you. It's pretty clear he's an asshole.

[falco]

No, I wouldn't want Richie Incognito as my neighbor, but the low-hanging fruit here is the boilerplate "he bullied because he is a racist."

I know you'll dismiss my opinion anyway, but from what I've seen you're the only one playing up the race card. Most of the reporting I've seen on the issue has made 'bullying' the hot button topic here.

[NewsBruin]

Oh, shit. If this PFT/Miami Herald story (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/05/report-coaches-wanted-incognito-to-toughen-up-martin/)is correct, we'll have to ask who ordered the Code Red.

[KYPack]

Oh, shit. If this PFT/Miami Herald story (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/05/report-coaches-wanted-incognito-to-toughen-up-martin/)is correct, we'll have to ask who ordered the Code Red.

Yeah, this could be "A FEW Good Men" part deaux.

Is Incognito's agent trying a hail Mary to save his fat client?

Or is the NFLPA lurking around behind this leak?

Tune in tomorrow Dolphin fans.

[George Cumby]

Oh, shit. If this PFT/Miami Herald story (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/05/report-coaches-wanted-incognito-to-toughen-up-martin/)is correct, we'll have to ask who ordered the Code Red.

This just keeps getting better and better!

If, for no other reason than giving us something else to talk about other than 12's clavicle.

[pbmax]

Something doesn't jibe with that story. If the message was to toughen up, I can see the voice mail being a misguided attempt to get him to react.

But if the message was get your butt to OTAs, its not in that voice mail.

[Joemailman]

This just keeps getting better and better!

:drma:

[Guiness]

That would be some crazy stuff, but I can't say I'm surprised, teams are looking for ways to get around those 'optional' practices

[Kiwon]

I agree that he is not likely an overt racist, seems like he just uses it as an insult of convenience, and would refer to anyone he butts heads with by a derogatory racial slur.

As far as him 'getting along' with Mike Wallace and other people saying he's a good guy to have around, well, guys like that can be. I spent a year and a half in a Russian town that was a former military base and coal mining region. When I went out, I didn't mind having some pretty dodgy characters with me, and some of their antics were pretty funny. Be friendly with them, buy a couple of rounds, keeps anyone from messing with you. Doesn't make them decent human beings.

Actually, I can relate a bit. I was in a rural part of Russia in 1995 when the economy was completely devastated. Whole factories sat idle due to a lack of raw materials. Seeing an American was a wonder to many and they were very suspicious. We were surveilled and people we spoke to were immediately interviewed by the government. Everyone knew where "the American" was, day or night.

You could tell that there were a few guys who wouldn't mind taking on an American in front of their friends. That's when you are glad that your "friends" can run interference for you. Yeah, sometimes it pays to have some sketchy characters on your side.

[Kiwon]

Kiwon, I know from other posts that you're a person of good will with your own life experiences that inform your views. But I'm not sure you've been a non-black guy in a majority black football locker room. I was. In the South. I heard the N word used all the time by my black teammates when talking to each other. I never took that as permission that I could use it, and neither I nor my white teammates (even the huge dudes) ever did. In fact, I remember a brawl nearly breaking out when a white teammate talked about the movie Pumping Iron and its star, Arnold Schwarzenegger. Seems a black teammate heard only the last part of Arnold's last name, and instantly, all that teammate brotherhood went out the window. We got the misunderstanding cleared up without a punch thrown, but it was a near thing.

As to Keef, he later admitted he was just talking shite about snorting his old man's ashes, but I'm not sure I buy his disavowal.

That's true, I don't have the locker room cred, but I do know the South and there are many, many people of both races who are ready to get past racial misunderstandings and are united in their opposition to any use of the N-word.

I'm in that camp and I don't mind highlighting the double standards and hypocrisy. Americans need to change their minds on this issue and quit trying to justify the unjustifiable. That word is unredeemable.

[Kiwon]

Oh, shit. If this PFT/Miami Herald story (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/05/report-coaches-wanted-incognito-to-toughen-up-martin/)is correct, we'll have to ask who ordered the Code Red.

You knew there was more to this story than what the media was first reporting. The facts didn't add up.

But, holy crap, how'd you like to be a pupil in Richie Incognito's 'tough love' program?

[Patler]

Yeah, his alleged racism seems to be the issue and if he was in fact this overt racist I say that he would not have the support of any of his Dolphin teammates or had lasted in the league for 9 years. Do you actually think in today's age of grievance and instant communication that Black athletes would remain silent and tolerate such things without complaint?

The narrative doesn't ring true to me at this point. There's more to the story, particularly on Martin's side.

No, the issue is his general treatment of a team mate. Racism is only a part of the larger issue. Conduct issues go all the way back to his days at Nebraska according to a former team mate who was on TV this morning. He noted Incognito bullying a walk-on to the point that the player left in the middle of a practice when he had finally had enough. The player later returned and finished a career as a contributing player. It was noted that Incognito has been suspended or dismissed from every team he has been with since he entered college, except Buffalo where he was for only a month.

You keep saying we have never heard about the issues with Incognito before. We have, every place he has been. Dismissals and suspensions have been for conduct, failing to conform to team standards and other general categories. We have not been told the details.

Can a racist survive in the NFL for 9 years? I think he can. The veil of secrecy surrounding what goes on within a team is indeed strong. Fringe players won't complain about others for fear of losing their opportunities. Good players won't complain about others for fear of being viewed as wimps or complainers, not team guys, etc., all of which can reduce their marketability. If a player is good enough to help a team win, he will be given opportunity after opportunity, and absolutely abhorrent behavior will be tolerated so long as it is kept somewhat quiet. Winning means money for everyone; players, coaches and owners. Good players who are jerks are tolerated until they become a major distraction. Then they are more or less quietly shown the door.

The simple fact that a lot of fans do not want to accept is that a lot of good athletes are really not very nice people. Some are fantastic, but with rosters the size of the NFL, repugnant characters are not uncommon. Unfortunately, a lot of them can help you win on the field, so they are accepted or at least tolerated.

Finally, the life of a professional athlete, NFL players maybe even more than others, is such that a great many of them have done things they would prefer be kept quiet. As a result, they tolerate conduct from others that "normal" people in "normal" jobs would not tolerate.

In short, there are a lot of incentives for players to put up with a lot from others, and they do.

[Tony Oday]

Shawn Merriman, Antre Rolle, Jared Allen and Ricky Williams all basically said on NFL Network Martin is a man and never should have let it get this far.

[pbmax]

Shawn Merriman, Antre Rolle, Jared Allen and Ricky Williams all basically said on NFL Network Martin is a man and never should have let it get this far.

I love that Ricky Williams is talking like this, considering he abandoned the same Dolphins by abruptly retiring before the season rather than face his drug suspension.

[red]

well,sounds like pilbin and the rest of the staff will be gone soon

front office guys should lose their jobs too

[Patler]

I think many are not looking at Martin for where he really is in his career. He is neither a rookie who should shut up and take as some argue, nor a veteran who should have been a man and stopped it before it went too far.

I suspect he believed things would be better when his rookie year was done. He has been described as a man who doesn't like to make waves. There is nothing wrong with that. From what has been said, it doesn't seem he was around the team much in the off-season, only when he had to be. So basically he tolerated some off season things and whatever went on in August and September before taking his stand in October. Some reports said he did complain to the coaches about some things that happened.

We are seeing several things that we see in many criminal cases, harassment cases etc. We have the alleged perpetrator and his supporters making him out to be a victim, and we have some blaming the purported victim. All very typical.

Martin seems like a guy who has options, and some who lived and breathed for careers as NFL players may not understand someone who can take it or leave it. Some will protect the NFL at all costs because that is all they had or expect to have. That includes former players. They view a whistleblower as a weak link, and will gladly blame him.

Martin did take a stand and stop what was being done. He left, removing himself from the situation. By doing so, he exposed his team and the NFL. Those blaming him for not taking a stand and stopping what was being done to him are blind. He did take a stand and stop it. Those blaming him are really upset with how he chose to do it.

[pbmax]

Can a racist survive in the NFL for 9 years? I think he can. The veil of secrecy surrounding what goes on within a team is indeed strong. Fringe players won't complain about others for fear of losing their opportunities. Good players won't complain about others for fear of being viewed as wimps or complainers, not team guys, etc., all of which can reduce their marketability. If a player is good enough to help a team win, he will be given opportunity after opportunity, and absolutely abhorrent behavior will be tolerated so long as it is kept somewhat quiet. Winning means money for everyone; players, coaches and owners. Good players who are jerks are tolerated until they become a major distraction. Then they are more or less quietly shown the door.

Case in point: Matt Light and Aaron Hernandez. Light played with Hernandez for three years I think. After retirement, and after Hernandez was arrested, Light gave his local paper quotes that he believed in nothing that Hernandez did. While it is rare to hear a Patriot talk about the team in such candid terms, it was hardly a controversial stand. In fact, it seemed damn convenient to tell that world that AFTER leaving the team and after a crime had been committed.

A couple of weeks after the quotes appeared, Light denied even speaking to the reporter in question. Not misquoted, he claimed he was busy with a camp for a youth group he was involved with and could not have been reached. The reporter gave the date and time he spoke to Light which coincided with the children's visit to a television station. A visit Light chaparoned. The reporters and Light talked for 4 hours face to face.

The locker room culture (plus Belichick) can silence a retired player to the point of being made to look like an idiot.

[Patler]

well,sounds like pilbin and the rest of the staff will be gone soon

front office guys should lose their jobs too

Ya, it's difficult to think of a scenario in which this doesn't fall back on them. No matter which facts you believe, Philbin and his staff are the likely fall-guys who will be sacrificed for the public.

[Guiness]

Case in point: Matt Light and Aaron Hernandez.
[snip]
The locker room culture (plus Belichick) can silence a retired player to the point of being made to look like an idiot.

Wow, that's pretty interesting. Even after he's out of the league, his pension is guaranteed, he's still afraid to speak out of turn. Not sure what they had on him to keep him quiet, I guess it was fear of being shut out of the 'club.'

Agreed that Philbin could end up being done, despite a not awful job in making that franchise relevant. He's not the golden boy Payton so I imagine the team and league will be harder on him for stuff that there is no way he didn't know about.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Shawn Merriman, Antre Rolle, Jared Allen and Ricky Williams all basically said on NFL Network Martin is a man and never should have let it get this far.

I think these guys are as big of morons as Icognito. And that gets at why I don't necessarily think Icognito is a monster, he may just be a moron. Well, Incognito is a John Holmes-sized dick in addition to being a moron.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think many are not looking at Martin for where he really is in his career. He is neither a rookie who should shut up and take as some argue, nor a veteran who should have been a man and stopped it before it went too far.

I suspect he believed things would be better when his rookie year was done. He has been described as a man who doesn't like to make waves. There is nothing wrong with that. From what has been said, it doesn't seem he was around the team much in the off-season, only when he had to be. So basically he tolerated some off season things and whatever went on in August and September before taking his stand in October. Some reports said he did complain to the coaches about some things that happened.

We are seeing several things that we see in many criminal cases, harassment cases etc. We have the alleged perpetrator and his supporters making him out to be a victim, and we have some blaming the purported victim. All very typical.

Martin seems like a guy who has options, and some who lived and breathed for careers as NFL players may not understand someone who can take it or leave it. Some will protect the NFL at all costs because that is all they had or expect to have. That includes former players. They view a whistleblower as a weak link, and will gladly blame him.

Martin did take a stand and stop what was being done. He left, removing himself from the situation. By doing so, he exposed his team and the NFL. Those blaming him for not taking a stand and stopping what was being done to him are blind. He did take a stand and stop it. Those blaming him are really upset with how he chose to do it.

good stuff. The Old Boys assume that Martin is a coward. The Old Boys are morons.

[George Cumby]

good stuff. The Old Boys assume that Martin is a coward. The Old Boys are morons.

They are morons. And Martin is really smart. And really smart people have a hard time relating to dumb, ignorant folk and vice versa. "Big Weirdo" is just idiotic jock-talk for "guy who is really smart and has prospects beyond this silly game and is incredibly threatening to me because I am an imbecile, probably a thug, who's gotten through life because I have won the genetic lottery but this fucker has won the genetic lottery twice and it really pisses me off, but I am so emotionally stunted, because I am an entitled prick who's had everything handed to me and it makes me so mad but I am completely bereft of the capacity for self reflection or introspection I am just going to be as crappy as I can because I am just a shitty excuse for a human being".

Or not.

[KYPack]

Had to rep that one, George.

[Tony Oday]

Yup Martin is the only smart guy in that locker room he was just being picked on because he was smart. Those mean NFL players that are all dumb as rocks.

[George Cumby]

Yup Martin is the only smart guy in that locker room he was just being picked on because he was smart. Those mean NFL players that are all dumb as rocks.

Excellent! You understand my point! :-P

[Patler]

Yup Martin is the only smart guy in that locker room he was just being picked on because he was smart. Those mean NFL players that are all dumb as rocks.

I don't think anyone has argued "only" and "all" in that manner. It never is that way. For example, I suspect there were some in the locker room who were uncomfortable with and never used the "Big Wierdo" moniker for him, probably some on both ends of the intelligence spectrum.

[Noodle]

Holy cow, Cumby, I second KY's rep -- you're the friggin' second coming of James Joyce.

[pbmax]

Yup Martin is the only smart guy in that locker room he was just being picked on because he was smart. Those mean NFL players that are all dumb as rocks.

But we do know from the article I linked to earlier that Martin was considered unassuming and deferential by his high school coach. That plus his smarts, might mark him as different.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Yup Martin is the only smart guy in that locker room he was just being picked on because he was smart. Those mean NFL players that are all dumb as rocks.

What is your theory on why Incognito chose Martin to bully?

"Moron" was perhaps a poor choice of words, I didn't mean it in the narrow sense of intelligence. There are people in KKK with genius IQ.

How about backward and emotionally stunted? Childish fools? Whatever the words, the bozo players who are saying Martin should have been a man are an embarassment. Guys who approve of such school-yard, wolfpack behavior are little better than Incognito.

[Harlan Huckleby]

They are morons. And Martin is really smart. And really smart people have a hard time relating to dumb, ignorant folk and vice versa. "Big Weirdo" is just idiotic jock-talk for "guy who is really smart and has prospects beyond this silly game and is incredibly threatening to me because I am an imbecile, probably a thug, who's gotten through life because I have won the genetic lottery but this fucker has won the genetic lottery twice and it really pisses me off, but I am so emotionally stunted, because I am an entitled prick who's had everything handed to me and it makes me so mad but I am completely bereft of the capacity for self reflection or introspection I am just going to be as crappy as I can because I am just a shitty excuse for a human being".

Or not.

What is your theory on why Incognito chose Martin to bully?

Do you blame Martin for the choices he made?

[Tony Oday]

I blame Martin for not going to OTAs and being viewed as soft from the coaching staff and they task Icognito to toughen him up. I point to all the players that have played with Icognito that say they like the guy. I heard Cory Chavous say that today on the radio. I think Martin has a victim mentality and couldn't deal with the issues as a man and instead acted like a child. He did not bring it up to management, coaches, different team leadership besides Icognito but instead ran home to his parents and said the bad men were being mean.

I dont think Icognito did right by the way but this could and should have been taken care of behind the scenes.

[Fritz]

Well, the important issue in all of this is whether this means the Packers will have the opportunity to bring Philbin back, and if they do, whether they would benefit by doing so.

[Joemailman]

Well, the important issue in all of this is whether this means the Packers will have the opportunity to bring Philbin back, and if they do, whether they would benefit by doing so.

They might bring him back to get someone to toughen up Sherrod.

[woodbuck27]

I think many are not looking at Martin for where he really is in his career. He is neither a rookie who should shut up and take as some argue, nor a veteran who should have been a man and stopped it before it went too far.

I suspect he believed things would be better when his rookie year was done. He has been described as a man who doesn't like to make waves. There is nothing wrong with that. From what has been said, it doesn't seem he was around the team much in the off-season, only when he had to be. So basically he tolerated some off season things and whatever went on in August and September before taking his stand in October. Some reports said he did complain to the coaches about some things that happened.

We are seeing several things that we see in many criminal cases, harassment cases etc. We have the alleged perpetrator and his supporters making him out to be a victim, and we have some blaming the purported victim. All very typical.

Martin seems like a guy who has options, and some who lived and breathed for careers as NFL players may not understand someone who can take it or leave it. Some will protect the NFL at all costs because that is all they had or expect to have. That includes former players. They view a whistleblower as a weak link, and will gladly blame him.

Martin did take a stand and stop what was being done. He left, removing himself from the situation. By doing so, he exposed his team and the NFL. Those blaming him for not taking a stand and stopping what was being done to him are blind. He did take a stand and stop it. Those blaming him are really upset with how he chose to do it.

I agree with all you wrote here Patler and I'll add that IMO he exposed the situation in the correct manner. Nothing would have been solved by confronting Incognito with fists. As it stands now 'the dirty laundry' is being aired. The chips will fall as they may.

[Tony Oday]

They might bring him back to get someone to toughen up Sherrod.

That dude needs some milk! Strengthen those bones :)

[Guiness]

I blame Martin for not going to OTAs and being viewed as soft from the coaching staff and they task Icognito to toughen him up. I point to all the players that have played with Icognito that say they like the guy. I heard Cory Chavous say that today on the radio. I think Martin has a victim mentality and couldn't deal with the issues as a man and instead acted like a child. He did not bring it up to management, coaches, different team leadership besides Icognito but instead ran home to his parents and said the bad men were being mean.

I dont think Icognito did right by the way but this could and should have been taken care of behind the scenes.

+1 for doing a spectacular job of playing devil's advocate


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9AexiRyPc0

Good lord I hope that's what you are doing.

[George Cumby]

What is your theory on why Incognito chose Martin to bully?

Do you blame Martin for the choices he made?

Bullies pick those that will allow themselves to be bullied.

"Blame" is perhaps too strong of a word, Martin is, to some degree, responsible for allowing this to happen.

That being said, the coaching staff fucked this up, royally. And, as I stated earlier, the teammates who went along with this, are to varying degrees, complicit.

And Incognito is a turd, don't lose sight of that. He is no victim of circumstances, he is a grade A pile of gooey, runny shit.

[woodbuck27]

Bullies pick those that will allow themselves to be bullied.

"Blame" is perhaps too strong of a word, Martin is, to some degree, responsible for allowing this to happen.

That being said, the coaching staff fucked this up, royally. And, as I stated earlier, the teammates who went along with this, are to varying degrees, complicit.

And Incognito is a turd, don't lose sight of that. He is no victim of circumstances, he is a grade A pile of gooey, runny shit.

It looks to me like Incognito has serious issues that might indeed call for some help in the realm of proper mental health.

Translation ... He might need to have his head checked out.

[Tony Oday]

I am playing devils advocate to a point. I however have no sympathy for a man that gets bullied that does nothing but cry to his parents. You are an adult, talk to the position coach, talk to the OC, talk to the HC, talk to other players you can't tell me that he had no friends on the team or around the league, talk to the GM. I am not saying he has to fight Incognito because that dude sounds like a brawler and could kick some ass but you also can't be a person that allows this to happen.

Now if he did do all that I said then I do have some sympathy if he is just an elite athlete smart nerd that cant make friends and has never stood up for himself.

[Patler]

I agree with all you wrote here Patler and I'll add that IMO he exposed the situation in the correct manner. Nothing would have been solved by confronting Incognito with fists. As it stands now 'the dirty laundry' is being aired. The chips will fall as they may.

Yup, and it is the "chips will fall as they may" aspect of it that I think scares a lot of players and coaches, both current and former. For that reason, they lash out at Martin, because he is the one who made this different by walking out.

[Joemailman]

I am playing devils advocate to a point. I however have no sympathy for a man that gets bullied that does nothing but cry to his parents. You are an adult, talk to the position coach, talk to the OC, talk to the HC, talk to other players you can't tell me that he had no friends on the team or around the league, talk to the GM. I am not saying he has to fight Incognito because that dude sounds like a brawler and could kick some ass but you also can't be a person that allows this to happen.

Now if he did do all that I said then I do have some sympathy if he is just an elite athlete smart nerd that cant make friends and has never stood up for himself.

If certain reports are true, it appears it may have been the coaching staff that sent Incognito after him. If that's the case, he may have felt he had nowhere in the organization to turn. So he left.

[Freak Out]

I do not have an issue with Martin walking out...I also would not have had an issue with Martin if he would have wrapped a garbage can around the idiots head. The whole "team thing" will rarely work without great leadership and respect in the locker room.

[Patler]

I am playing devils advocate to a point. I however have no sympathy for a man that gets bullied that does nothing but cry to his parents. You are an adult, talk to the position coach, talk to the OC, talk to the HC, talk to other players you can't tell me that he had no friends on the team or around the league, talk to the GM. I am not saying he has to fight Incognito because that dude sounds like a brawler and could kick some ass but you also can't be a person that allows this to happen.

Now if he did do all that I said then I do have some sympathy if he is just an elite athlete smart nerd that cant make friends and has never stood up for himself.

Why must he do all of that? Several articles have mentioned briefly that Martin complained "to the team" about the way he was being treated previously. I don't know what that means, but there is a chain of command, and if his complaint was to any coach or team official, the chain of command failed him.

Nothing that I have read indicates he involved his parents in any way, except for going there when he left the team. It's his home, why shouldn't he go there? It seems that he took it upon himself to simply leave the team, deciding that it was a situation he could no longer tolerate. Telling his coaches and team to stick it is no easy task when you are a second year player who has started every game so far and looks to have a lucrative career a head of him.

So far, Martin has given no indication that he wants to or intends to resume an NFL career. I think that bothers a lot of players, because it diminishes the aura of their jobs when a young, successful player simply says "thanks, but no thanks." For that reason, in their minds, he is the one at fault.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Bullies pick those that will allow themselves to be bullied.


Martin didn't allow himself to be bullied, at least in the end. He left, decided he didn't need to put up with the crap.

It's this response that is being criticized by the bozo players and others.


The correct bozo response is to fight back. Prove that you are tough. That's the wolf pack system.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I remember my own cowardice as a first grader. I was bigger and stronger than the other kids, could have whipped any of them. There was this one squirrelly kid that got beat up a lot. The drill was you would go in the bathroom and knock the runt around a bit. I went in the bathroom with kid, and instead of knocking him around, I said lets be friends. But I was too chicken to protect him. Guess I was afraid to be an outsider too, even though I was super shy kid anyway. Pathetic.

[woodbuck27]

Martin didn't allow himself to be bullied, at least in the end. He left, decided he didn't need to put up with the crap.

It's this response that is being criticized by the bozo players and others.


The correct bozo response is to fight back. Prove that you are tough. That's the wolf pack system.

Right and just maybe Jonathan Martin had a right to hope that his NFL world was a civilized one. Can the Miami Organization ever claim it was blind to this harassment story? The facts as their coming out would refute that. The Miami Organization appears guilty of not offering protection to Jonathan Martin with something akin to a school yard / prison yard mentality.

This story rings to me as preposterous in my time as a sports fan.

[Tony Oday]

Why must he do all of that? Several articles have mentioned briefly that Martin complained "to the team" about the way he was being treated previously. I don't know what that means, but there is a chain of command, and if his complaint was to any coach or team official, the chain of command failed him.

Nothing that I have read indicates he involved his parents in any way, except for going there when he left the team. It's his home, why shouldn't he go there? It seems that he took it upon himself to simply leave the team, deciding that it was a situation he could no longer tolerate. Telling his coaches and team to stick it is no easy task when you are a second year player who has started every game so far and looks to have a lucrative career a head of him.

So far, Martin has given no indication that he wants to or intends to resume an NFL career. I think that bothers a lot of players, because it diminishes the aura of their jobs when a young, successful player simply says "thanks, but no thanks." For that reason, in their minds, he is the one at fault.

If he doesnt want a career in the NFL, I would doubt with his mental toughness he will get a shot but hell they give killers, rapists and dog butcherers shots, then he went about it correctly. Said screw you guys Im going home.

If he wants to continue his career that is what you are supposed to do, its a job, you go up the chain of coaching/leadership.

He gave his parents his "evidence" and let them do his dirty work. My son does this too but he is 7.

[red]

guys on the radio were talking about this yesterday and i totally agreed with one of him

martin made the best of a lot of bad choices in a no win for him situation

if he physically goes after richie in the locker room, well thats a giant no no and the team could kick him out with no pay

if you go to the coaches you're a snitch, team hates you

he could have done what too many people are doing these day, he could have gone home, got a gun, and returned to shoot the place up

the guy had enough, turned the other cheek and left, giving up a shitload of money in the process, it wasn't until the media kept digging and digging looking for a reason that things stated to come to lite

the guy was a victim in this whole mess, yet he's being vilified in some circles. if this was any other real workplace (not a professional sports team because lets face it, its not a job to play a fucking game and make million doing it) the shit that ingognito did who have been completely unacceptable and there would be no debate

this whole story has brought to life that we are all sitting here worshiping a game played by a bunch of neanderthals, that should, in a sane world, be regarded as the scum of the earth

[LEWCWA]

starting to understand why coaches kid may have killed himself.....coach looks like a complete douche...

[Patler]

If he doesnt want a career in the NFL, I would doubt with his mental toughness he will get a shot but hell they give killers, rapists and dog butcherers shots, then he went about it correctly. Said screw you guys Im going home.

If he wants to continue his career that is what you are supposed to do, its a job, you go up the chain of coaching/leadership.

He gave his parents his "evidence" and let them do his dirty work. My son does this too but he is 7.

What is "mental toughness"???
I think there is a lot of mental toughness involved in going against the status quo as he did.
I think there is a lot of mental toughness involved in jeopardizing a multi-million dollar job, as he did.

I think it is 100% wrong to equate metal toughness only with accepting abuse, even if it is not physical. By that analysis, an emotionally or verbally abused spouse is only mentally tough if they stay in the relationship, not if they leave it.

Does he have to complain to everyone there is? If he has to go to team mates, than position coach, then OC, then HC then GM, how long does he have to wait? Why isn't once or twice enough? Does he have to whine about it daily? Does he have to wait a year for things to change?

This could very well end up in a legal battle. Both his parents are attorneys. If he did turn over his evidence to them (I hadn't heard that) it was probably a wise decision on his part.

[Freak Out]

Wow.

[Tony Oday]

What is "mental toughness"???
I think there is a lot of mental toughness involved in going against the status quo as he did.
I think there is a lot of mental toughness involved in jeopardizing a multi-million dollar job, as he did.

I think it is 100% wrong to equate metal toughness only with accepting abuse, even if it is not physical. By that analysis, an emotionally or verbally abused spouse is only mentally tough if they stay in the relationship, not if they leave it.

Does he have to complain to everyone there is? If he has to go to team mates, than position coach, then OC, then HC then GM, how long does he have to wait? Why isn't once or twice enough? Does he have to whine about it daily? Does he have to wait a year for things to change?

This could very well end up in a legal battle. Both his parents are attorneys. If he did turn over his evidence to them (I hadn't heard that) it was probably a wise decision on his part.

I think there is no mental toughness in what he did. Was it gutsy as hell throwing away that much cash hell yeah. He did not have to accept the abuse, he could have gone to OTAs and said no to the money extortion. When he has a complaint there is a process just like the real life. Did this guy have NO friends on the team in a year? How is that possible? I would go first to friends to see if that happens to them or former teamates from Stanford to see if it was happening to them on other teams, if it was then it is a systemic problem throughout the NFL, since it sounds like this doesnt happen then I would have gone to my position coach that I deal with on a practically hourly basis, if he said nothing I would have gone to the OC, I personally would keep going higher until it was addressed but I would be fine if that is where he stopped.

He, according to reports, didnt go to anyone then just snapped when eating some spaghetti.

Whats the charge? Hostile work environment? Get a witness. Your assertation has been he is a smart guy that doesn't need football and these neanderthals do so why would they jepordize their careers and testify against the club?

[MadtownPacker]

I think what Tony isn't seeing is the business side of all this. In likely every corporation there is a HR. Based on my own and others encounters with Inhuman Resources it always seems like they are looking out for the company and nothing else. I have yet to see where they took the side of what is right over what is right for the company. I think this situation is just like that. Dude went through the process and realized nothing was going to be done so he said fuck it.

[red]

Based on my own and others encounters with Inhuman Resources

i bet you're one of those mexicans that can't take a friendly little joke and goes crying to HR every time someone calls you a beaner or wetback, or a drunk?

[Joemailman]

i bet you're one of those mexicans that can't take a friendly little joke and goes crying to HR every time someone calls you a beaner or wetback, or a drunk?

I would never call that pendejo names like that.

[Tony Oday]

I think what Tony isn't seeing is the business side of all this. In likely every corporation there is a HR. Based on my own and others encounters with Inhuman Resources it always seems like they are looking out for the company and nothing else. I have yet to see where they took the side of what is right over what is right for the company. I think this situation is just like that. Dude went through the process and realized nothing was going to be done so he said fuck it.

See I don't see that he did go through the process and that is my beef with this, sounds like he endured this "inhumane" treatement, at the hands of a mean racist that intimidated him by locking him up in the locker room and only letting him out to practice and play, as long as his delicate brain could take it then looked at some spaghetti with SPAM and threw it down, ran to the window and said THESE FLOOR ARE DIRTY AS HELL AND IM NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE!

[Patler]

I think there is no mental toughness in what he did. Was it gutsy as hell throwing away that much cash hell yeah. He did not have to accept the abuse, he could have gone to OTAs and said no to the money extortion. When he has a complaint there is a process just like the real life. Did this guy have NO friends on the team in a year? How is that possible? I would go first to friends to see if that happens to them or former teamates from Stanford to see if it was happening to them on other teams, if it was then it is a systemic problem throughout the NFL, since it sounds like this doesnt happen then I would have gone to my position coach that I deal with on a practically hourly basis, if he said nothing I would have gone to the OC, I personally would keep going higher until it was addressed but I would be fine if that is where he stopped.

He, according to reports, didnt go to anyone then just snapped when eating some spaghetti.

Whats the charge? Hostile work environment? Get a witness. Your assertation has been he is a smart guy that doesn't need football and these neanderthals do so why would they jepordize their careers and testify against the club?

So now there is a difference between "gutsy" (which he was) and "mental toughness" (which he lacked)? I don't see much of a difference in the two, so I'm not sure we can debate this much further.

I doubt many dissatisfied workers will go consult coworkers and friends, then confront their their immediate supervisor, department head, location manager, and company president before saying "hell with it" and simply leaving a job they find intolerable. I would likely go several levels up, but probably would not have as a 23-24 year old. I certainly don't expect everyone to do it, or be considered mentally soft or weak, whatever. Of course, most would do that only if it was a job they were desperate to stay in, which Martin may not have been.

According to reports, he did "complain to the team." He did not just snap when eating spaghetti. The only report I saw was that for some time no one would eat with him. On the day in question he was openly invited to a table. As soon as he sat down, everyone else at the table got up and left, again leaving him alone. Clearly an orchestrated event if it happened that way. Perhaps funny if random, but not funny when done to someone already treated as an outcast.

I'm not sure that Martin wants anything, or intended to charge anything. After all, he simply left and said nothing publicly. He didn't involve the press or make demands of the team that we know of. It was only the prying of the press that brought out reports from team sources about how he had been treated. His side said nothing until he needed to defend himself in the media.

[Patler]

I think what Tony isn't seeing is the business side of all this. In likely every corporation there is a HR. Based on my own and others encounters with Inhuman Resources it always seems like they are looking out for the company and nothing else. I have yet to see where they took the side of what is right over what is right for the company. I think this situation is just like that. Dude went through the process and realized nothing was going to be done so he said fuck it.

The HR side of a football team, as far as the player is concerned, is the GM who is likely to dump you if you make his life difficult.

[woodbuck27]

The HR side of a football team, as far as the player is concerned, is the GM who is likely to dump you if you make his life difficult.

Sometimes the TRUTH sucks.

Sometimes people don`t even realize the TRUTH.

Miami`s QB Ryan Tannihill on NFL.Com late this afternoon in a press conference...thought that Rich Incognito was the BEST teammate and that he and Johnathan Martin were like brothers or best Buds. That this whole story is a real shock .... a surprize to him.

The plot thickens.

[Patler]

Has Martin started an epidemic?

John Moffit walked away from Denver during their bye:

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2013-11-06/john-moffitt-retires-27-years-old-denver-broncos-early-retirement-update?icid=maing-grid7|netscape|dl1|sec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D402275:

Just doesn't want to play anymore, not even for the possibility of a Super Bowl.

[pbmax]

I blame Martin for not going to OTAs and being viewed as soft from the coaching staff and they task Icognito to toughen him up. I point to all the players that have played with Icognito that say they like the guy. I heard Cory Chavous say that today on the radio. I think Martin has a victim mentality and couldn't deal with the issues as a man and instead acted like a child. He did not bring it up to management, coaches, different team leadership besides Icognito but instead ran home to his parents and said the bad men were being mean.

I dont think Icognito did right by the way but this could and should have been taken care of behind the scenes.

I suspect the same locker room culture that was violated by Martin prevents you from hearing from his teammates about his difficulties with them.

There have been no shortage of opponents who think he is unprincipled. Not to mention two teams (probably three soon) cutting ties with him because of problems he causes or gets mixed up in.

[denverYooper]

Has Martin started an epidemic?

John Moffit walked away from Denver during their bye:

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2013-11-06/john-moffitt-retires-27-years-old-denver-broncos-early-retirement-update?icid=maing-grid7|netscape|dl1|sec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D402275:

Just doesn't want to play anymore, not even for the possibility of a Super Bowl.

This happened at about the same time that the Martin story was breaking. It got a little play in local media but got totally overwhelmed by the other.

[pbmax]

So who was misunderstood more, Martin or Incognito? Tannehill was not the only Miami player to back this story.

Jeff Darlington ‏@JeffDarlington 1h
Ryan Tannehill: "If you asked Jonathan Martin who his best friend is on this team two weeks ago, he'd say Richie Incognito."

Jeff Darlington ‏@JeffDarlington 1h
Tannehill has strong words about the relationship between Incognito and Martin, noting Incognito was always first to be at Martin's side.


Do people see only what they want to see?

CollegeFootball 24/7 ‏@NFL_CFB 24m
"Issue is not with Jonathan Martin, issue is with the other person," David Shaw on #CFB247podcast. http://on.nfl.com/1dLyEnp

[ThunderDan]

I just heard on the radio that Martin played "the tape" to teammates and they laughed at him. Who knows if that is true or not but it would put a damper on who Martin could talk to.

Apparently the issue in the dining room was that a bunch of players invited Martin to sit with them to eat. When he sat down all of the other players got up and walked away.

[Joemailman]

So who was misunderstood more, Martin or Incognito? Tannehill was not the only Miami player to back this story.

Jeff Darlington ‏@JeffDarlington 1h
Ryan Tannehill: "If you asked Jonathan Martin who his best friend is on this team two weeks ago, he'd say Richie Incognito."

Jeff Darlington ‏@JeffDarlington 1h
Tannehill has strong words about the relationship between Incognito and Martin, noting Incognito was always first to be at Martin's side.


Do people see only what they want to see?

CollegeFootball 24/7 ‏@NFL_CFB 24m
"Issue is not with Jonathan Martin, issue is with the other person," David Shaw on #CFB247podcast. http://on.nfl.com/1dLyEnp


"Hey, wassup, you half (expletive) piece of (expletive). I saw you on Twitter, you been training 10 weeks. I'll (expletive) in your (expletive) mouth. I'm gonna slap your (expletive) mouth, I'm gonna slap your real mother across the face (laughter). (Expletive) you, you're still a rookie. I'll kill you."

Is this something that was said to try to intimidate someone? Or is this something you would only say to a close friend or family member understanding it would not be taken literally? I'm really starting to wonder.

[red]

you know joe, we need to hear the tape, because context and tone of voice make the whole difference here

i could easily see myself saying something similar to one of my friends

i guess there is a chance incognito thought he was playing all in good fun and didn't know martin wasn't taking it that way

[Joemailman]

In my opinion, Incognito will be playing for the Dolphins once this is completely investigated. Martin, not so much. Dolphin players are starting to speak up in Incognito's defense. http://nfl.si.com/2013/11/06/jonathan-martin-miami-dolphins-richie-incognito/?sct=hp_t2_a1&eref=sihp


@HubbuchNYP
Hartline is outraged because he says Martin was passing the voicemail around earlier in the year and laughing about it.
4:28 PM - 6 Nov 2013
498 RETWEETS 63 FAVORITES

[Tony Oday]

http://m.espn.go.com/nfl/story?storyId=9937464

Evil Incognito.

[NewsBruin]

After reading the quotes from the ESPN and SI links in the last posts (and their linked stories), I don't feel at like I have any handle to comment anymore. Right now, I want to just throw up my hands. Maybe all the Dolphins loved Ritchie; maybe some of his ex-teammates didn't. Maybe Icognito and Martin were best buds; maybe they were a Stockholm relationship. It's amazing how the reporters can find an on-record source/analyst who will agree wholeheartedly with whatever narrative wind is blowing. I feel like I'm watching an 80's sitcom with the canned audience that can react appropriately at the press of a button. Or maybe a Greek chorus, for the more classical types.

I don't think it was as simple as Martin just walking away from a bad situation. He walked away from the lockerroom and checked into a hospital. Whatever was eating him up was something that he had held in for a while, and he had no clue how to do something about it. And while he's recovering, Incognito's voicemails are leaked to the media by "representatives," who at this point, would likely be his agent or parents.

I'm really beyond any clue as to deciding what should be right or normal in the NFL, and I'm not really trusting what anyone said. I want to believe that Incognito was a boorish boob, loved by his teammates as a "salt-of-the-earth" type; that Martin didn't know how to tell anyone on the team; that Philbin would have dropped everything to help him if he asked; that Gooddell is interested in everyone's long-term wellbeing more than PR appeasement; and that the reactions of all the ex-players in the studio sets are more specific and genuine than the prerecorded comments on the halftime shows of my NFL video game. But I'm pretty sure at least one of those may not be as accurate as my wishful thinking.

[Tony Oday]

I hope Martin gets the help to put his brain back together so he is healthy and adjusted. I doubt he plays football again.

[woodbuck27]

After reading the quotes from the ESPN and SI links in the last posts (and their linked stories), I don't feel at like I have any handle to comment anymore. Right now, I want to just throw up my hands. Maybe all the Dolphins loved Ritchie; maybe some of his ex-teammates didn't. Maybe Icognito and Martin were best buds; maybe they were a Stockholm relationship. It's amazing how the reporters can find an on-record source/analyst who will agree wholeheartedly with whatever narrative wind is blowing. I feel like I'm watching an 80's sitcom with the canned audience that can react appropriately at the press of a button. Or maybe a Greek chorus, for the more classical types.

I don't think it was as simple as Martin just walking away from a bad situation. He walked away from the lockerroom and checked into a hospital. Whatever was eating him up was something that he had held in for a while, and he had no clue how to do something about it. And while he's recovering, Incognito's voicemails are leaked to the media by "representatives," who at this point, would likely be his agent or parents.

I'm really beyond any clue as to deciding what should be right or normal in the NFL, and I'm not really trusting what anyone said. I want to believe that Incognito was a boorish boob, loved by his teammates as a "salt-of-the-earth" type; that Martin didn't know how to tell anyone on the team; that Philbin would have dropped everything to help him if he asked; that Gooddell is interested in everyone's long-term wellbeing more than PR appeasement; and that the reactions of all the ex-players in the studio sets are more specific and genuine than the prerecorded comments on the halftime shows of my NFL video game. But I'm pretty sure at least one of those may not be as accurate as my wishful thinking.

Good post with much thought and compassion in it.

Congratulations. :-D

[George Cumby]

Good post with much thought and compassion in it.

D

+1

Well said NB.

[pbmax]

What we have here is a failure, to communicate.

Sources: Ireland suggested that Martin confront Incognito physically (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/06/sources-ireland-suggested-that-martin-confront-incognito-physically/)

Jeff Ireland, in a conversation with Martin's agent proposed that Martin confront Incognito, this would be prior to his departure last month. Punch him, is what the advice was.

So, was Incognito clueless enough to think Martin saw him as a friend? Was Martin friendless enough that prominent teammates could mistake the relationship for a friendship?


You know all the talk and work Rodgers puts into getting to know the players so he can effectively lead and communicate with them? He should get a raise.

[pbmax]

I am getting a strong vibe that NO ONE in Miami knows what is going on. Certainly that seems to be because no one on the team has spoken from Martin's point of view and that might be tied to his relationship to his teammates.

Tannehill, who thought they were great friends, never heard the voicemail: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/06/ryan-tannehill-says-incognito-and-martin-were-best-friends/

Clabo and Hartline, who think Martin betrayed Incognito think Martin was laughing at the voicemail: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/06/tyson-clabo-on-jonathan-martin-he-needs-to-stand-up-and-explain-why-hes-doing-this/

Clabo mentions the friendship though it appears here that Incognito made that claim earlier this week: http://nypost.com/2013/11/06/dolphins-players-rally-behind-richie-incognito/

Hubbuch's Twitter timeline has a quote, from Clabo I think, that Incognito recorded the voicemail while drunk.

And the Dolphins seem intent on making this as bad a situation as possible: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/06/dolphins-hit-rock-bottom-keep-digging/

Here is one for Kiwon, two teammates that do not believe Incognito is a racist: http://nypost.com/2013/11/06/dolphins-players-rally-behind-richie-incognito/

[Harlan Huckleby]

i guess there is a chance incognito thought he was playing all in good fun and didn't know martin wasn't taking it that way
yes, entirely possible.

I also wouldn't be surprised if Incognito is super creepy. Maybe he likes to lurk around wearing disguises.

I'm not taking any firm position until Greg Jennings weighs in.

[George Cumby]

yes, entirely possible.

I also wouldn't be surprised if Incognito is super creepy. Maybe he likes to lurk around wearing disguises.

I'm not taking any firm position until Greg Jennings' sister weighs in.

Fixed.

[Guiness]

yes, entirely possible.

I also wouldn't be surprised if Incognito is super creepy. Maybe he likes to lurk around wearing disguises.

I'm not taking any firm position until Greg Jennings weighs in.

You want creepy?

Well, there is this..


http://www.tmz.com/videos/0_1r739gfp

[Patler]

Sources: Ireland suggested that Martin confront Incognito physically (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/06/sources-ireland-suggested-that-martin-confront-incognito-physically/)

Jeff Ireland, in a conversation with Martin's agent proposed that Martin confront Incognito, this would be prior to his departure last month. Punch him, is what the advice was.


For those of you who have been very critical of Martin, if this report is true, and the GM was aware and offered the solution of a physical confrontation; does your opinion about Martin's ultimate action change?

This situation gets more and more strange with each passing day. I don't see either Incognito or Martin ever playing there again. I would say that Ireland and Philbin will both be gone, but I thought NO might be forced to a housecleaning too, and they weren't. Of course there is a big difference, Ireland & Philbin haven't demonstrated enough on-field success to trump the negative publicity being generated. In NO, they had.

I do believe that Incognito may have been clueless, and that Martin may not be of the preferred personality/temperment for an NFL team, but that is where leadership failed. It is the responsibility of coaches and team leaders to bring a very diverse group of personalities into a team structure. They failed, apparently.

[Kiwon]

Here is one for Kiwon, two teammates that do not believe Incognito is a racist: http://nypost.com/2013/11/06/dolphins-players-rally-behind-richie-incognito/

More than two, try several, and they're not afraid of saying so publicly. And they considered him “an honorary black man”. How do you get that title? By knowing how to get along well with your teammates, the majority of whom are...(gasp)......Black. Thus, my repeated point, a White racist doesn't last 9 years in the NFL.

Team is team, especially among veterans. These guys train, travel, practice and play together. They fight for each other. They see each other for enormous amounts of time and under very, very stressful situations filled with highs and lows. As one player said of Incognito, "He’s a guy I’m with more than my own family, so I know what type of guy he is, and he’s not a racist.” I'll take his word for it.

In war, the first three reports from the battlefield are wrong. A lot of times, I think the same applies to Sports media as well.

[Fritz]

Wow. How did Joe Philbin let this happen?

[Joemailman]

For those of you who have been very critical of Martin, if this report is true, and the GM was aware and offered the solution of a physical confrontation; does your opinion about Martin's ultimate action change?

This situation gets more and more strange with each passing day. I don't see either Incognito or Martin ever playing there again. I would say that Ireland and Philbin will both be gone, but I thought NO might be forced to a housecleaning too, and they weren't. Of course there is a big difference, Ireland & Philbin haven't demonstrated enough on-field success to trump the negative publicity being generated. In NO, they had.

I do believe that Incognito may have been clueless, and that Martin may not be of the preferred personality/temperment for an NFL team, but that is where leadership failed. It is the responsibility of coaches and team leaders to bring a very diverse group of personalities into a team structure. They failed, apparently.

If this report is true, Ireland's job is probably in trouble. If a new GM is brought in, he's probably going to want to bring his own coach in. What a strange story.

[Infamous]

Young man either has borderline personality disorder, post traumatic stress d/o or generalized anxiety d/o resulting from homosexuality

[Infamous]

and Incognito could be a "reformed" racist; having held on to ignorant beliefs stemming from household dynamics and early childhood socio-economic status particulars that have been dispelled as he matriculated through early adulthood and been exposed to "cool" African folk

[George Cumby]

Things have taken a turn for the surreal.

[KYPack]

In a related story, Greg Schiano sent Joe Philbin a box of candy with a note, thanking Joe for turning the media spotlight away from his ass.

[denverYooper]

What we have here is a failure, to communicate.

Sources: Ireland suggested that Martin confront Incognito physically (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/06/sources-ireland-suggested-that-martin-confront-incognito-physically/)

Jeff Ireland, in a conversation with Martin's agent proposed that Martin confront Incognito, this would be prior to his departure last month. Punch him, is what the advice was.

So, was Incognito clueless enough to think Martin saw him as a friend? Was Martin friendless enough that prominent teammates could mistake the relationship for a friendship?


You know all the talk and work Rodgers puts into getting to know the players so he can effectively lead and communicate with them? He should get a raise.

They're giving him a few weeks off. What more could he want?

[denverYooper]

yes, entirely possible.

I also wouldn't be surprised if Incognito is super creepy. Maybe he likes to lurk around wearing disguises.

I'm not taking any firm position until Greg Jennings weighs in.

#BeGreat

[Tony Oday]

No we have to ignore first hand witnesses and stick with the big bad man bullied the poor "Big Weirdo" bullies are bad and he was bullied by the bad man, he wouldn't let him play in any dolphin games.

DEATH TO INCOGNITO

Nah it's cool we know in this day and age people have a problem with other people if they are not handing them a trophy.

[denverYooper]

No we have to ignore first hand witnesses and stick with the big bad man bullied the poor "Big Weirdo" bullies are bad and he was bullied by the bad man, he wouldn't let him play in any dolphin games.

DEATH TO INCOGNITO

Nah it's cool we know in this day and age people have a problem with other people if they are not handing them a trophy.

Is this trophy business a real thing? I mean, my kids are just starting out in sports and all but no one handed my daughter a trophy for coming in last in her first running race.

[pbmax]

More than two, try several, and they're not afraid of saying so publicly. And they considered him “an honorary black man”. How do you get that title? By knowing how to get along well with your teammates, the majority of whom are...(gasp)......Black. Thus, my repeated point, a White racist doesn't last 9 years in the NFL.

Team is team, especially among veterans. These guys train, travel, practice and play together. They fight for each other. They see each other for enormous amounts of time and under very, very stressful situations filled with highs and lows. As one player said of Incognito, "He’s a guy I’m with more than my own family, so I know what type of guy he is, and he’s not a racist.” I'll take his word for it.

In war, the first three reports from the battlefield are wrong. A lot of times, I think the same applies to Sports media as well.

Kiwon, the title honorary black man is as meaningless as it is nebulous. Was there a vote? What is the list of qualifications? Given the meaning in the locker room, does every African-American on the team even qualify? Can 1,2 or 5 Arfrican-Ameican men decide what it and isn't racism for others? Its reductive and ridiculous. The use of the slur in the voicemail mail makes it clear Incognito doesn't understand context because that is not a conversational colloquialism. And it appears that Martin did not accept it as a good natured jibe.

I agree completely with your second paragraph and I suspect that is why so many, perhaps expectedly, defend Incognito. But let's be clear. Their statements are also defending themselves against charges that they are miscreants that allowed this kind of behavior to occur. So there is a lot of self-interest here, especially against the charge of racism. It is odd that I have not seen anyone ask about the Vegas trip because legally, I would be more worried about extortion.

I think the first three reports of Martin's trouble were one, left the team, two, that he felt bullied and harassed and third was the Vegas trip. None of those are incorrect as we know the situation today. You cannot take Martin's actions and make a determination of fault based solely on whether charges of racism stick. Its obviously a lot more complicated than that.

[pbmax]

For those of you who have been very critical of Martin, if this report is true, and the GM was aware and offered the solution of a physical confrontation; does your opinion about Martin's ultimate action change?

This situation gets more and more strange with each passing day. I don't see either Incognito or Martin ever playing there again. I would say that Ireland and Philbin will both be gone, but I thought NO might be forced to a housecleaning too, and they weren't. Of course there is a big difference, Ireland & Philbin haven't demonstrated enough on-field success to trump the negative publicity being generated. In NO, they had.

I do believe that Incognito may have been clueless, and that Martin may not be of the preferred personality/temperment for an NFL team, but that is where leadership failed. It is the responsibility of coaches and team leaders to bring a very diverse group of personalities into a team structure. They failed, apparently.

I think its clear the entire team was clueless about the trouble they had. And Martin's social behavior fed that obliviousness and misinformation.

PFT said they had several sources. If Ireland offered that advice he may have authored his own departure. However, given how common that advice has been among players, I would not be entirely surprised if the entire organization simply gets to attend a seminar.

[pbmax]

Might be the best inside look I have seen. From a former teammate of both (though he was only with Martin for an offseason and a camp):

http://mmqb.si.com/2013/11/07/richie-incognito-jonathan-martin-dolphins-lydon-murtha/

Essentially? Martin was treated largely as the rest of the Offensive lineman were. But he suspects Incognito did not read, as Murtha did, that Martin did not respond well to the same kind of grief common among teammates on the Dolphins. He was shy and standoffish from the start.

- Martin objected to the rookie dinner deal
- Incognito crossed a line with the voice mail that Murtha cannot condone
- Martin backed out of the Vegas trip after initially committing. Money was spent on his behalf and the $15K was his share. Not sure how he knows this as fact as he seems to have been gone by the end of Martin's rookie camp.
- Does not buy the notion that the coaches did not know. Coaches often ask players to draw other out of their shells.


However, a Stanford O lineman alum isn't buying Murtha's tale in whole.
Ben Muth ‏@FO_wordofmuth 1h
Dont think MMQB couldve found a less credible source than a Nebraska alum who played LT & got cut 5 months after Martins arrival

[pbmax]

And on the racial front, it appears not all African-Amercians are buying the free card of "honorary black man". Incognito also seems to have a history with being a specific kind of jackass.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/dolphins/2013/11/06/miami-dolphins-richie-incognito-jonathan-martin-racial-slur-indefensible-jarrett-bell-column/3459833/


A former Dolphins player quoted by The Herald contended that within the team's locker room, Incognito is considered an "honorary" black man -- which presumably allows him to live in a world with white privilege and use disparaging racial epithets as he sees fit.

"Honorary brother, my ass," said Sapp. "Yeah, and an 'honorary white guy' (who is black) walking around in some places in Mississippi still has to be gone by sundown."

Sapp said that Incognito, then with the St. Louis Rams, called him the N-word during a game. He was offended, but saw it as a psychological ploy in the trenches.

"I said, 'Cuz, you want me to slap the (expletive) out of you and get thrown out of the game. But I'm going to assault your quarterback and they're going to cut your (expletive),' " Sapp recalled. "That's just how he plays. He's a piece of (expletive)."

[denverYooper]

What we have here is a failure, to communicate.

Sources: Ireland suggested that Martin confront Incognito physically (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/06/sources-ireland-suggested-that-martin-confront-incognito-physically/)

Jeff Ireland, in a conversation with Martin's agent proposed that Martin confront Incognito, this would be prior to his departure last month. Punch him, is what the advice was.

So, was Incognito clueless enough to think Martin saw him as a friend? Was Martin friendless enough that prominent teammates could mistake the relationship for a friendship?


You know all the talk and work Rodgers puts into getting to know the players so he can effectively lead and communicate with them? He should get a raise.

Seeing some more piling on Ireland today:

Tom Pelissero ‏@TomPelissero 7m
It probably was just a matter of time before Martin's camp targeted Jeff Ireland. He is to say the least not well-liked in agent community.

Sage Rosenfels ‏@SageRosenfels18 20m
I played for 5 teams and 9 GMs and Ireland is the only 1 I had a problem with. I was also traded 3 times and cut twice. Yes, I was average.

[pbmax]

Not unique to Miami: Here is the Bear's Hunter Hillenmeyer on Olin Kruetz

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/07/hillenmeyer-hated-coming-in-to-work-because-of-kruetz/

[pbmax]

Here's one that surprisingly involves KGB and Kyle Turley. Not as specific as others, but Turley seems to confirm the suggestion by Murtha that coaches would ask Incognito to whip Martin into shape.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/football/nfl/la-sp-farmer-turley-incognito-20131107,0,4724400.column#axzz2jyYnPnUg

[pbmax]

Perhaps the reason NFL teams do not want someone thought of as soft or sensitive is that they have no effective means of working with them otherwise. From the Turley article above:


Turley said he has spoken to people with knowledge of the situation in Miami — including a brief exchange with Incognito using direct messages on Twitter — and believes that Incognito's gruff approach coupled with Martin's fragile psyche created "a recipe for disaster."

"What everybody else in the locker room considers just football, obviously [Martin] was completely the opposite and very sensitive to what was going on and didn't buy into that," Turley said. "When you've got a guy like Richie, who's been enlisted as your leader to motivate these guys, to get them in shape, get them in check, personally, I feel like the Dolphins kind of set them up.

"They set Jonathan Martin up for failure, and they set Richie Incognito up for failure."

[Pugger]

They might bring him back to get someone to toughen up Sherrod.

A guy who can come back from that horrendous injury isn't one who's toughness should be questioned.

[Pugger]

It looks to me like Incognito has serious issues that might indeed call for some help in the realm of proper mental health.

Translation ... He might need to have his head checked out.

And this isn't the first time Incognito made himself unwelcome in a locker room.

[Pugger]

I am playing devils advocate to a point. I however have no sympathy for a man that gets bullied that does nothing but cry to his parents. You are an adult, talk to the position coach, talk to the OC, talk to the HC, talk to other players you can't tell me that he had no friends on the team or around the league, talk to the GM. I am not saying he has to fight Incognito because that dude sounds like a brawler and could kick some ass but you also can't be a person that allows this to happen.

Now if he did do all that I said then I do have some sympathy if he is just an elite athlete smart nerd that cant make friends and has never stood up for himself.

From what I understand Martin did go to the GM who told him to punch Incognito in the nose. MM won't tolerate this kind of behavior so I find it incredible Philbin didn't know what was going on. If he didn't he doesn't have control of that locker room and this might be why this situation got to a point where Martin felt the only recourse he had was to leave and then the whole world would see the crap going on.

[Tony Oday]

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/former-dolphins-lineman-lydon-murtha-explains-jonathan-martin-165157389--nfl.html

Just another person in support of an evil bigot that picked on "Big Weirdo"

[Tony Oday]

Is this trophy business a real thing? I mean, my kids are just starting out in sports and all but no one handed my daughter a trophy for coming in last in her first running race.

did she get a medal? That is what my son gets for just about everything, got a trophy last year in baseball where they didn't keep score. His response, "Dad this is cool but how much cooler will it be when I actually earn it?!" Yes my son you are doing it right.

[NewsBruin]

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/former-dolphins-lineman-lydon-murtha-explains-jonathan-martin-165157389--nfl.html

Just another person in support of an evil bigot that picked on "Big Weirdo"

This refers to the MMQB link that Patler posted earlier, and I think of any single source, it's the most helpful.

Martin's side got to the media first, and was able to frame this story with true, but selective details. I'm sticking by my assessment that he didn't have the social/emotional skills to handle the Dolphins' lockerroom, even if by account he was all aces at Stanford. Hell, in a guy's mid-twenties, I think it's a miracle if he does have his stuff together.

We see hurting people, and empathetically, we want to help them or stick up for them. I mentioned my past being bullied and mentioned that I didn't know how to stand up for myself (which isn't the same as dropping gloves with a bully) or how to believe in my worth in the absence of external approval. I'm kinda pleased that I was right on this one, but I'm biased to my experiences.

The more details that come out, the more human everyone seems. Even the nimrod GM (unfortunately a Baylor Bear) reminds me of the principals and gym teachers who shrugged and told me to fight back.

I think this will end like Hamlet. Everyone loses in the end.

One thing that we gotta give Lombardi credit for is that for all his hard-ass reputation, he knew what buttons to press on each player. I think it was Maraniss' book that mentions him berating Horning while privately criticizing McGee (I think) and telling the team no abuse was tolerated on one closeted player.

I don't have a great bow to wrap this all up in, but the more nuance we see, the more we can use this to tell folks how to handle conflicts and anxiety without reducing it to knee-jerk rules and intelligence-insulting, unrealistic skits.

(Of course, expect this to lead to knee-jerk rules and intelligence-insulting skits.)