Finley To Have Surgery

[pbmax]

Mark "Hot Tub" Chmura reported today on the radio that he talked to Finley Sunday before the game.

Finley told him he is having surgery this week (Hot Tub was confused about the exact date but thought it was Thursday) for a cervical fusion for a herniated disk I believe.

Finley's bad disk is a C3-C4. Not as bad as Collins 2-3, but worse than Chewy's 4-5.

Chmura doesn't think Finley will play for the Packers again.

[Freak Out]

Bummer.

[red]

and thats a career folks

[bobblehead]

Between him and Tramon like 16million comes off the books. We should at least be able to resign guys.

[MadScientist]

Well he made good money, has a ring, apparently has an insurance policy and should still be able to lead a normal life. Good luck to him, I hope he makes the transition well.

[pbmax]

Finley's agent takes a shot at Chmura's report. Releases a statement.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/13/statement-from-jermichael-finleys-agent/related/

He is having surgery, with the Steelers team neurosurgeon and expects to play again. Doesn't specify what Hot Tub got wrong, but Chmura did not expect Finley to play again. Agent does not confirm or mention which vertebrae are being fused.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I heard Chmura's remarks on radio, he didn't say anything inappropriate or inaccurate.

[pbmax]

I heard Chmura's remarks on radio, he didn't say anything inappropriate or inaccurate.

He said Finley was done. Said he was really down. And said he would likely never play again, certainly not for the Packers. He gave a very grim prognosis without much nuance. Also gave the cervical numbers of the vertebrae involved (3-4 I think).

He could turn out to have it exactly right, but Finley's agent isn't willing to go there yet.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Chmura is well versed on these issues, having retired from a spine injury himself. I expect his report was accurate.

But I'm having second thoughts on whether it was appropriate, he might have betrayed the confidence of somebody who saw him as a friend. I don't know, Finley should know that Chmura is a media member, I'm undecided.

[red]

no packer who has ever had the surgery has gone on to play for the packers

i'm not sure if any packer to have the surgery has ever gone on to play for another team

i don't see us or anyone else giving him big money to sit on IR for a year with the chance he never plays again

[Rastak]

One of the newspapers over there east of me had published an article written by a top surgeon explaining there was only one scenario where surgery wouldn't be necessary and of course in the comments section, where morons of the first order live (in every state) the reception was "How does he know, he hasn't even seen him".


God the unwashed masses are something.

[red]

must have been a poster from west of the mississippi, over in the boondocks

[Rastak]

must have been a poster from west of the mississippi, over in the boondocks

I think it was 40% of the people commenting.....maybe not that high....anyway, don't wish any ill will on the man. That has to suck short and long term.

[pbmax]

One of the newspapers over there east of me had published an article written by a top surgeon explaining there was only one scenario where surgery wouldn't be necessary and of course in the comments section, where morons of the first order live (in every state) the reception was "How does he know, he hasn't even seen him".


God the unwashed masses are something.

Oh it gets even better. Now that the agent, and presumably Finley, have spoken that they expect his career to continue, there is a Twitter fight going on about whether Chmura should have reported what he did.

The "gist" of it? How do Blake Baratz (Fin agent) and Mike Florio "know" Finley's career isn't over?!

Unbelievable.

[pbmax]

Chmura is well versed on these issues, having retired from a spine injury himself. I expect his report was accurate.

But I'm having second thoughts on whether it was appropriate, he might have betrayed the confidence of somebody who saw him as a friend. I don't know, Finley should know that Chmura is a media member, I'm undecided.

Chmura had an injury at a different spot and not all spinal fusions are the same. There can be more or less associated damage or narrowing in one person than another.

For instance, Manning, whose injury was, I think, in the same area as Chmura's, is still playing.

He should have caveated his pretty unequivocal statement with "my experience" or similar. He might have even been on solid ground in saying its likely the Packers wouldn't want to touch him. But its pretty clear that cervical fusion isn't a career ender in and of itself.

[red]

maybe chewy shouldn't have tried to fuck that 15 year old in the hot tub after he got her drunk (and probably slipped her a ruffie)

[Patler]

Sean Richardson returned to practice today, I think. He had C5-C6 fusion.

[bobblehead]

Sean Richardson returned to practice today, I think. He had C5-C6 fusion.

I had high hopes, even though I only saw him on special teams, but his size and athleticism impressed me. I think he is probably lost too much time now though.

[Harlan Huckleby]

But its pretty clear that cervical fusion isn't a career ender in and of itself.

At best, he is going to be stiffer.

It's career ending. If he continues his career, he forgoes a $10M insurance payment. The chances of any team committing serious money to him are slim.

Chmura was spot-on with his analysis, and he need not hem-and-haw with "just my opinion" or "according to my experience." He told it like he saw it, the fact that it is his opinion is implicit, but this is a pretty clear situation.

My question is whether Chmura broke a tacit confidence.

[Joemailman]

At best, he is going to be stiffer.

It's career ending. If he continues his career, he forgoes a $10M insurance payment. The chances of any team committing serious money to him are slim.

How does the insurance work though? Does he collect if the doctors say he can continue his career?

[QBME]

How does the insurance work though? Does he collect if the doctors say he can continue his career?

Aye - there's the rub. He'll need all sorts of doctors (personal, team and insurance company) to sign off that he can't play anymore. I seem to recall that Joe Theisman had to go through rehab and conduct work outs to prove he couldn't perform any more in order to collect his insurance money, even though everybody knew he was through after he broke his leg.

[Patler]

How does the insurance work though? Does he collect if the doctors say he can continue his career?

I imagine it works like other disability coverages. The insurance company will have to be convinced that he is unable to continue his career. If their doctors and his disagree, it will probably end up in court.

[MadScientist]

I imagine it works like other disability coverages. The insurance company will have to be convinced that he is unable to continue his career. If their doctors and his disagree, it will probably end up in court.

If no teams will risk signing him, he will have a good case to get the insurance. Perhaps his statements are part of building the case that he is acting in good faith in trying to continue his career, but nobody will take the risk of signing him.

[Harlan Huckleby]

If no teams will risk signing him, he will have a good case to get the insurance.

Right. Plus, I doubt a league minimum offer would count as Finley being able to continue his career. He's defined the earning path of his career.

And what doctor is going to risk his reputation by saying a guy with a fused spine is good to go for the NFL?

Even for simple injuries, you often get different opinions from different doctors, medicine is not an exact science. Why would a doctor commit an all-clear to such a dicey situation?

Fusing any vertebrae has got to be a huge deal - it will change the biomechanics of the whole spine, could cause an increased vulnerability somewhere that isn't obvious.

Everybody's body is different, doesn't it make sense that one such injury suggests this person is more vulnerable to reinjury, regardless of the result of the repair?

BTW, I can't imagine that a receiver or defensive back can be as effective with a less flexible torso. But that's a smaller issue.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I seem to recall that Joe Theisman had to go through rehab and conduct work outs to prove he couldn't perform any more in order to collect his insurance money, even though everybody knew he was through after he broke his leg.


I would think a spinal injury is viewed very differently than a poorly functioning leg, for obvious reasons.

Really, I think this is a no-brainer, nobody is going to tell a guy with a fused spine - and Finley's is pretty high up the back - to get back out there start blocking linebackers.

[QBME]

I would think a spinal injury is viewed very differently than a poorly functioning leg, for obvious reasons.

Really, I think this is a no-brainer, nobody is going to tell a guy with a fused spine - and Finley's is pretty high up the back - to get back out there start blocking linebackers.

Yeah, you're probably right. It's just that insurance companies don't have the reputation of cutting checks without some hoop jumping. This may be a different animal though.

[pbmax]

Right. Plus, I doubt a league minimum offer would count as Finley being able to continue his career. He's defined the earning path of his career.

snip...

And what doctor is going to risk his reputation by saying a guy with a fused spine is good to go for the NFL?

OK, now you are just flapping your keyboard and changing the argument.

Why would it not count as continuing his career if he gets a Doctor and Team to approve his return and he gets a minimum contract? I am not arguing career arc, but a return to game that Chmura has already ruled out.

http://www.healio.com/orthopedics/journals/ortho/%7B28256cb1-108a-4c85-9101-01eeaf5b5f93%7D/lumbar-and-cervical-disk-herniations-in-nfl-players-return-to-action


You Reported 72% of Players Who Underwent Surgery for a Cervical Disk Herniation Successfully Returned to Play, on Average 29 Games over a 2.8-Year Period, Which Was Significantly Longer than that of the Nonoperative Group, in Which only 46% Returned to Play 14 Games over a 1.5-Year Period. What Confounding Factors Could Have Affected This Significant Difference?

Those percentages don't tell us the overall number, but clearly players, with surgery and without are cleared to resume football.

A partial list off the top of my head:

Sean Richardson
Peyton Manning
Keion Carpenter (Safety-Bills)
Chris Weinke
Aaron Smith (not the best outcome 15/40 some games played after that)


Now, if Hot Tub was right about C3-4 being the affected disk, then there could be other considerations. This JSO article mentions that one doctor (Robert Watkins) at least does not recommend returning from a 3-4 fusion because of stress it could put on c1-2. But by implication, Dr. Hsu indicates there are Doctors that will OK a return after a 3-4 fusion. Dr. Joseph Maroon, Steelers team neurosurgeon, will perform Finley's procedure.

Given Nick Collins situation, though again, might involve other factors, I doubt he will return to the Packers.

[Fritz]

OK, now you are just flapping your keyboard and changing the argument.

Why would it not count as continuing his career if he gets a Doctor and Team to approve his return and he gets a minimum contract? I am not arguing career arc, but a return to game that Chmura has already ruled out.

http://www.healio.com/orthopedics/journals/ortho/%7B28256cb1-108a-4c85-9101-01eeaf5b5f93%7D/lumbar-and-cervical-disk-herniations-in-nfl-players-return-to-action



Those percentages don't tell us the overall number, but clearly players, with surgery and without are cleared to resume football.

A partial list off the top of my head:

Sean Richardson
Peyton Manning
Keion Carpenter (Safety-Bills)
Chris Weinke
Aaron Smith (not the best outcome 15/40 some games played after that)


Now, if Hot Tub was right about C3-4 being the affected disk, then there could be other considerations. This JSO article mentions that one doctor (Robert Watkins) at least does not recommend returning from a 3-4 fusion because of stress it could put on c1-2. But by implication, Dr. Hsu indicates there are Doctors that will OK a return after a 3-4 fusion. Dr. Joseph Maroon, Steelers team neurosurgeon, will perform Finley's procedure.

Given Nick Collins situation, though again, might involve other factors, I doubt he will return to the Packers.

Okay, so the Packers placed Finley on IR, correct?

What happens if they do not offer him a contract, but someone else does? Are the Packers awarded a compensation pick?

[Zool]

Okay, so the Packers placed Finley on IR, correct?

What happens if they do not offer him a contract, but someone else does? Are the Packers awarded a compensation pick?

Without knowing the actual answer, I would guess yes. He is a standard unrestricted FA if cleared to play. I believe they could choose to tag him as well.

[MadScientist]

And what doctor is going to risk his reputation by saying a guy with a fused spine is good to go for the NFL?

Even for simple injuries, you often get different opinions from different doctors, medicine is not an exact science. Why would a doctor commit an all-clear to such a dicey situation?

Fusing any vertebrae has got to be a huge deal - it will change the biomechanics of the whole spine, could cause an increased vulnerability somewhere that isn't obvious.

Everybody's body is different, doesn't it make sense that one such injury suggests this person is more vulnerable to reinjury, regardless of the result of the repair?

In this case the increased vulnerability is obvious (or at least known) - fusing vertebrae means that any movement will be spread among fewer flex joints and the problem is even worse for a fast sharp hit (like the one he just got). The motion will be transmitted to the top vertebrae quickly, but much slower past the fusion. The higher the fusion, the higher the risk of paralysis with a hit like this. I agree, if I were an MD, no way would I sign off on Finley's return.

Okay, so the Packers placed Finley on IR, correct?

What happens if they do not offer him a contract, but someone else does? Are the Packers awarded a compensation pick?
If he signs elsewhere he will go into consideration for comp picks, because he will be a UFA. If the Packers had to cut him, like they did with Collins then there would be no comp pick.

[pbmax]

Okay, so the Packers placed Finley on IR, correct?

What happens if they do not offer him a contract, but someone else does? Are the Packers awarded a compensation pick?

Yes, IR rules don't prevent him from becoming a UFA.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Why would it not count as continuing his career if he gets a Doctor and Team to approve his return and he gets a minimum contract?

If a player of Finley's status wants to accept minimum offers, that is his business, and a foolish choice.

I do not believe a judge, let alone a jury, would force Finley to shop his services at a minimum salary in order to prove he is not able-bodied. A minimum salary would only demonstrate that the experts (GMs) believe that an elite player like Finley is likely to be done, they are just taking a flyer.


Those percentages don't tell us the overall number, but clearly players, with surgery and without are cleared to resume football.

It's the percentages that matters. How many players received fusion surgery and forgoed $10M insurance policies to take another shot at the game? I don't see it. I can see maybe a QB like Peyton Manning who doesn't have to concern himself with money (did he have a fusion?)

[MadScientist]

If a player of Finley's status wants to accept minimum offers, that is his business, and a foolish choice.

I do not believe a judge, let alone a jury, would force Finley to shop his services at a minimum salary in order to prove he is not able-bodied. A minimum salary would only demonstrate that the experts (GMs) believe that an elite player like Finley is likely to be done, they are just taking a flyer.
It would depend on the wording of the insurance policy. Nobody is forcing Finley to do anything, but if the wording is something like "... sustains an injury that make him unable to play in the NFL ..." and an NFL team clears him and offers him a contract, then he is a 'able' to play and can't collect.

[Harlan Huckleby]

"... sustains an injury that make him unable to play in the NFL ..." and an NFL team clears him and offers him a contract, then he is a 'able' to play and can't collect.

Sure, but are teams going to ignore Finley's contract expectations and offer a lowball that screws him? I just don't see this as a realistic issue.

If he wants to collect the insurance rather than play, and his injury has made him into a risky, borderline prospect, he is not going to seek or get a minimum offer.

If he wants to play, he'll probably find some way to play.

[Cheesehead Craig]

I wonder if he would have to actually fail a physical from an NFL team to prove that he's done? Definitive proof, IMO as no team would sign him w/o him going through one of those.

[Harlan Huckleby]

We've forgotten the point of insurance. Lane Taylor can't go out and buy a $10M insurance policy even if he could afford the premiums. The $10M figure isn't pulled out of thin air, it is an approximation of the value of Finley's future earnings.

If Finley has lost his ability to earn his estimated future earnings, he can collect on the policy. I'm sure the policy is written to reflect that fundamental agreement.

You can't go buy a $1M insurance policy on your "same crappy blue 72 Chevy Nova" (Beverly Hills Cop reference)

http://pics.imcdb.org/th5931/pdvd_515.2.jpg

[Fritz]

We've forgotten the point of insurance. Lane Taylor can't go out and buy a $10M insurance policy even if he could afford the premiums. The $10M figure isn't pulled out of thin air, it is an approximation of the value of Finley's future earnings.

If Finley has lost his ability to earn his estimated future earnings, he can collect on the policy. I'm sure the policy is written to reflect that fundamental agreement.

You can't go buy a $1M insurance policy on your "same crappy blue 72 Chevy Nova" (Beverly Hills Cop reference)

http://pics.imcdb.org/th5931/pdvd_515.2.jpg


I don't understand why all of you are worried about whether he collects on an insurance policy.

The real issue is what kind of comp pick could the Packers get if the guy signs with another team?

It'll be probably not a big contract, so he'd have to play lights out for the Pack to get even a shot at a decent pick.

[MadScientist]

Sure, but are teams going to ignore Finley's contract expectations and offer a lowball that screws him? I just don't see this as a realistic issue.

If he wants to collect the insurance rather than play, and his injury has made him into a risky, borderline prospect, he is not going to seek or get a minimum offer.

If he wants to play, he'll probably find some way to play.

Teams are not going to lowball Finley, assuming he actually can get cleared, but will offer him a contract that takes the risk into account. That may well be a minimum wage contract, although I would expect more of a minimum plus performance incentives kind of a deal.


I wonder if he would have to actually fail a physical from an NFL team to prove that he's done? Definitive proof, IMO as no team would sign him w/o him going through one of those.

He probably needs something to make the claim, either a failed physical, his doctors saying no, or his doctors giving a x% risk of paralysis that Finley says is too great. I suppose he could also claim that the injury has cost him his nerve and he can't play for psychological reasons.

[pbmax]

And what doctor is going to risk his reputation by saying a guy with a fused spine is good to go for the NFL?

Even for simple injuries, you often get different opinions from different doctors, medicine is not an exact science. Why would a doctor commit an all-clear to such a dicey situation?

So are you ready to say you were wrong here or should we research exactly how many Doctors have allowed players with spinal fusion to play again would prove the number isn't zero?

[pbmax]

Its light Finley is a moth, attracted to light. His neurosurgeon is on Twitter.

Jason Wilde ‏@jasonjwilde 20h
Finley's doctor is on Twitter? RT @DrJosephMaroon: Packers' Finley elects to have neck procedure http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2013/11/13/packers-finley-elects-to-have-neck-procedure/ …

[pbmax]

Thursday

Wes Hodkiewicz ‏@WesHod 22h
#Packers injuries: Barclay DNP; EDS LIM; Hayward DNP; Jolly DNP; Matthews FULL; Mulumba LIM; Neal DNP; Perry DNP; Pickett LIM; Rodgers DNP

Neal is getting week off and is likely to play. Pickett is nursing a knee injury.

[pbmax]

Friday: Oh-Oh

Bob McGinn ‏@BobMcGinn 1m
Sam Shields in sweats observing only at #Packers practice Fri. Don Barclay not around early. Mike Neal practiced. Dietrich-Smith seems OK.

[pbmax]

Difference of opinion on EDS and WesHod has Jolly back.

Wes Hodkiewicz ‏@WesHod 13m
#Packers practice: Neal and Jolly returned but no Shields, Perry, Mulumba, EDS, Barclay, Rodgers or Hayward

[denverYooper]

Moved to Giants discussion.

[pbmax]

Whoa, wrong thread unless Sam is also playing TE.

[QBME]

Friday: Oh-Oh

Bob McGinn ‏@BobMcGinn 1m
Sam Shields in sweats observing only at #Packers practice Fri.

He's got a sore hamstring. Go figure.

[pbmax]

McCarthy says Finley's surgery was successful according to Pack's Docs.

Finley well enough to Tweet:


For All The Craziness That's Going Around "I'm Not Done With The Game Of FootBall". Thanks To "Dr. Mark Chumra" For The False Story.

Jermichael Finley (@JermichaelF88) November 15, 2013

[MJZiggy]

Its light Finley is a moth, attracted to light. His neurosurgeon is on Twitter.

Jason Wilde ‏@jasonjwilde 20h
Finley's doctor is on Twitter? RT @DrJosephMaroon: Packers' Finley elects to have neck procedure http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2013/11/13/packers-finley-elects-to-have-neck-procedure/ …There's gotta be a HIPAA violation in there somewhere.