Things that will make the packers better

[dahammer001]

The first thing I would like to touch on is the inability to tackle. We may have to change coaches on the defensive side of the ball to improve our chances of advancing to the super bowl. I do not like any of our defensive backs, they are pathetic when it comes to tackling and judging the ball in flight. Out of this group of dB’s, I am not sure if I would keep any, this has been going on for too long! Please stop playing back off the LOS by giving up fifth teen yards, just stop it.

The linebackers cannot cover a tight end to save their life. Ted Thompson needs to start drafting linebackers that can cover and tackle. The linebackers that I like the most is CM3, Sam Barrington and Jamari Lattimore. The rest of the linebackers they release tomorrow and it would not bother me one bit. Ted Thompson quit trying to make defensive lineman into linebackers. Nick Perry and Mike Neal, you have to be able to run and swivel your hips, some guys can and some can’t. If the defensive lineman isn’t capable of running at 4.5 forty yard dash, don’t waste your time with these crazy experiments

Last but not least is the defensive line. Can anybody rush the qb besides Clay Matthews? Defensive line have too many fats guys like Pickett ,Raji, and Jolly that get tired late in games and that's what causes the packers to lose games. Because these guys are gased when it counts. What happen to CJ Wilson, is he still on the team? If Ted Thompson draft another 6 ft defensive lineman I will lose my lunch.

[red]

i think it comes down to either TT just can not draft defensive players or the coaching can't turn that raw talent into anything useful

personally, i think the talent is there. the DB's and D-line were thought to be two strengths of this team before the regular season started, now they look like two of the weakest.

i say clean house on the defensive side of the ball, except for Greene, i like greene. i wouldn't even mind a switch to the 4-3, but if we did, what the hell would we do with CMIII? can he play OLB or a DE in a 4-3? he's not really a cover guy, and he's kind of like KGB in all that he can do is speed rush and he's kind of small for a DE.

[red]

also, in a traditional 3-4, you are not suppose to get a pass rush out of your d-line, they are suppose to be fat guys that take up blockers allowing the LB's to attack.

we try and use those fat guys as pass rushers way too much, and it just doesn't work, and won't work

[denverYooper]

If they don't make the playoffs, they might be close to the range where they could draft a good safety.

[red]

If they don't make the playoffs, they might be close to the range where they could draft a good safety.

this is suppose to be a very weak draft for safeties, and the top one (the one guy that might go in the first, Ha-Ha) might have some red flags

[Joemailman]

If they don't make the playoffs, they might be close to the range where they could draft a good safety.

Currently NFLDraftScout has 1 safety rated as a likely 1st round pick - http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/2028292/hasean-clintondix. He is currently rated as the # 21 prospect overall. Right now the Packers would be drafting between 18-21. Last year the top S, Kenny Vaccaro went # 15. Eric Reid went #18.

The red flag against Ha-Ha is that he accepted $100-$300 from a coach. Even though he paid it back, that was an NCAA violation. Not a big deal as far as his draft status, in my opinion.

[red]

Currently NFLDraftScout has 1 safety rated as a likely 1st round pick - http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/2028292/hasean-clintondix. He is currently rated as the # 21 prospect overall. Right now the Packers would be drafting between 18-21. Last year the top S, Kenny Vaccaro went # 15. Eric Reid went #18.

The red flag against Ha-Ha is that he accepted $100-$300 from a coach. Even though he paid it back, that was an NCAA violation. Not a big deal as far as his draft status, in my opinion.

he did also have a brand new 2012 dodge charger stolen. thats a pretty nice 25,000-45,000 car for a college kids. not that most players from most div-1 schools don't get things like fancy cars

side note..... when i was in college we use to go over to michigan state quite a bit to party. i was amazed at just how nice some of the MSU's guys new BMW's were..... end story

one of the next top safties in the draft (like the #2 guy according to my favorite site) is a guy from FSU who is a whopping 5-8 (and thats what the school lists him as, so he's probably closer to 5-4)

[George Cumby]

Aaron Rodgers.

[Freak Out]

Aaron Rodgers.

+1

[Bretsky]

Some Captain Obvious Answers are coming

1. FIRE SLOCUM
2. How many defensive players has TT drafted i rounds one to four after 2009 ? How many playmakers has he found since 2009 on Defense......ahhhhh......Dear TT- GET U A SECOND ONE............and while you are at it..........a second NFL calibur safety has been on my wishlist for quite a while now.....and maybe a second pass rusher as well
3. Get a Reliable TE who stays on the field
4. Get Brian Bulaga back so we have our second OT and the line greatly improves

[dahammer001]

How about a big receiver that can catch in traffic with ability to take it the house. The packers can't seem to stop oppossing receivers. Let's put some pressure on their small defensive backs.

[woodbuck27]

Currently NFLDraftScout has 1 safety rated as a likely 1st round pick - http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/2028292/hasean-clintondix. He is currently rated as the # 21 prospect overall. Right now the Packers would be drafting between 18-21. Last year the top S, Kenny Vaccaro went # 15. Eric Reid went #18.

The red flag against Ha-Ha is that he accepted $100-$300 from a coach. Even though he paid it back, that was an NCAA violation. Not a big deal as far as his draft status, in my opinion.

That guy or Hasean Clinton-Dix ALABAMA ... is 6' - 1" and 208 lbs and ( 4.54 - 40Y). He has the physical attributes we need to see in DB's that TT needs to focus on when picking.

As this season continues we as fans should focus on the teams current DB's on the roster in terms of their ability to cover and pass off WR's and when required tackle. I'm also sick of seeing our DB's play so soft against the 'monster of the midway' WR's they need to face on the best teams. Some of these guys are within our own division (NFCN) and are easily identified in games Vs the Packers.

What do we have on the Green Bay Packer Roster?

(S) Morgan Burnett is 6' - 1" and 209 lbs.

CB Davon House is 6' - 1" and 195 lbs.

***********************************************

CB Micah Hyde is 6' - 0" and 197 lbs

S M. D. Jennings is 6' - 0" and 195 lbs.

CB Jarret Bush is 6' - 0" and 200 lbs.

CB James Nixon is 6' - 0" and 186 lbs.

CB Sam Shields is 5' - 11" and 184 lbs. but he gives so much to compensate for his physical limitations.

CB Tramon Williams is 5' - 11" and 191 lbs and 'your shutdown CB' !?

CB Casey Hayward is 5' - 11" and 192 lbs.

S Jerron McMillian is 5' - 11" and 203 lbs

S Chris Banjo is 5' - 10" and 207 lbs.

******************************************

Top WR's that the Green Bay Packers must defend against in the in the NFCN. Too many to add in the NFL overall.

WR Brandon Marshal is 6' - 4" and 230 lbs.

WR Alshon Jeffery is 6' - 3" and 216 lbs.

WR Calvin Johbson is 6' - 5" and 236 lbs.

WR Jerome Simpson is 6' - 2" and 190 lbs.

How do you see our team's DB's matching up 'physically' Vs the pass?

PACKERS !

[pbmax]

4. Get Brian Bulaga back so we have our second OT and the line greatly improves

Even when he returns next year, do you really expect him to stay healthy?

I ran the numbers somewhere else, but by the end of the year, his availability percentage will be as bad as Sherrod.

I suspect Hyde as safety (as much as I don't like those moves) might be the thing they try next year.

[pbmax]

How about a big receiver that can catch in traffic with ability to take it the house. The packers can't seem to stop oppossing receivers. Let's put some pressure on their small defensive backs.

You mean like Jones and Nelson?

[red]

That guy or Hasean Clinton-Dix ALABAMA ... is 6' - 1" and 208 lbs and ( 4.54 - 40Y). He has the physical attributes we need to see in DB's that TT needs to focus on when picking.


Ha'sean clinton-dix is the very same Ha Ha clinton-dix we were talking about

he's the 1 safety in the draft with a first round grade so far

[Pugger]

Aaron Rodgers.

Bulaga
Cobb
Finley
Harris
100% EDS
Anyone other than Newhouse at RT
100% Matthews
100% Perry
Hayward
Collins

[Carolina_Packer]

The first thing I would like to touch on is the inability to tackle. We may have to change coaches on the defensive side of the ball to improve our chances of advancing to the super bowl. I do not like any of our defensive backs, they are pathetic when it comes to tackling and judging the ball in flight. Out of this group of dB’s, I am not sure if I would keep any, this has been going on for too long! Please stop playing back off the LOS by giving up fifth teen yards, just stop it.

I agree that the tackling is bad overall, but we have seen games where they gang tackled well; Detroit and Baltimore, and the first half of Bengals game. We know they can do it. As for the cushion they are giving receivers, I couldn't tell you scheme stuff, but it seems pretty obvious not to give guys a free release from the LOS.

The linebackers cannot cover a tight end to save their life. Ted Thompson needs to start drafting linebackers that can cover and tackle. The linebackers that I like the most is CM3, Sam Barrington and Jamari Lattimore. The rest of the linebackers they release tomorrow and it would not bother me one bit. Ted Thompson quit trying to make defensive lineman into linebackers. Nick Perry and Mike Neal, you have to be able to run and swivel your hips, some guys can and some can’t. If the defensive lineman isn’t capable of running at 4.5 forty yard dash, don’t waste your time with these crazy experiments

This group has been dinged up all year it seems. When healthy, I think they have gotten some good play out of the LB's, but they haven't been together much. Against good tight ends, it's hard for every team to find someone to put on the field to cover him. You're either putting a guy on him who is too slow or too short. Yeah, it would be awesome to have a guy who could match up with the most athletic TE's.

Last but not least is the defensive line. Can anybody rush the qb besides Clay Matthews? Defensive line have too many fats guys like Pickett ,Raji, and Jolly that get tired late in games and that's what causes the packers to lose games. Because these guys are gased when it counts. What happen to CJ Wilson, is he still on the team? If Ted Thompson draft another 6 ft defensive lineman I will lose my lunch.

In the 3-4, the defensive line on run downs is going to be the bigger guys who can take on double teams and stand up the blockers and keep them away from your linebackers to fill (hopefully correctly shoot) the gap and make a play. On passing downs they go to sub-packages and bring in more pass rush types like Datone Jones. In the last couple of weeks, I'm not sure if it's the d-line getting pushed back, not clogging gaps, or if it's the linebackers not being stout enough in run support, or giving up the edge, like they did consistently to Philly, or if it's the poor tackling on the second level of the defense. It's likely a combo of all of them.

When teams get the lead on the Pack, they will likely run, especially if they can successfully eat clock as in the last two games in the 4th quarter. The Pack D needs to figure out how to stop the run on 1st and 2nd down to create bad down and distance for any hope to get the pressure game working. If you are getting gashed in the run game, then it's harder to bring the pressure because there are less obvious passing downs. To me it all starts with stopping the run which starts with toughness and sure tackling which starts with understanding where you are supposed to line up and executing your responsibility properly on each play. They did it earlier in the year and had a few defensive gems (Detroit and Baltimore, and half of Cincy game), but now they are dinged up and that doesn't help matters. I would really like to see what this D could do with the full crew healthy, but then so would every other team.



Go Pack Go!

[George Cumby]

A professional strength and conditioning staff, not the clowns they pulled out of the YMCA.

[denverYooper]

A professional strength and conditioning staff, not the clowns they pulled out of the YMCA.

You have to wonder if that group is gone this year. I read a comment from one of the beat guys about how the Packers revamped their nutrition plan in the offseason and tried to improve feng shui in order to improve their injury rate. Maybe it's time to look at that staff and replace them with some who can teach them how to gain functional strength and flexibility. I really wonder if they don't spend enough time on flexibility, mobility, and ROM.

[dahammer001]

s.

How do you see our team's DB's matching up 'physically' Vs the pass? We don't. Using logical here if everybody is employing tall receivers then you draft bigger DB's.

[dahammer001]

Ron Wolf did not mess with DB's that were under 5:11

[KYPack]

If Ted Thompson draft another 6 ft defensive lineman I will lose my lunch.

I know.

Ever since TT got that goofy 6 footer Mike Daniels, the DLine has gone to shit.

You've got to try & get the best players, sometimes that guy is a shorter player.

[Joemailman]

Ron Wolf did not mess with DB's that were under 5:11

He drafted Terrell Buckley #5 overall. TT on the other hand, has not drafted any shorter than than 5-11. The Packers DB's are not small. Few DB's in the NFL are much taller than 6-0. If you think there are a lot of CB's out there that can match up physically with Megatron or Brandon Marshall, guess again. Take a look at the top prospects at CB in the 2014 draft. http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/prospectrankings/2014/CB

[dahammer001]

What do think is the issue? Joemailman

[dahammer001]

How can John Schneider go out and find big defensive backs.

[Joemailman]

What do think is the issue? Joemailman

Lack of consistent pressure is a big one. Check out http://packerrats.com/showthread.php?26137-Pressures

If a QB throwing to a big receiver can put the ball where he wants it when he wants it, it's pretty tough to stop. Tackling is also an issue. I think they need an upgrade to M.D. Jennings at FS. Hayward has had a lost season due to injuries. Tramon seems to be declining. There are lots of things you can point to, but pressure on the opposing QB always makes a secondary better.

[pbmax]

How can John Schneider go out and find big defensive backs.

He has two monsters. One is a safety (Chancellor) and the other is Sherman at CB.

If you wanted to play zone, they would be in trouble. Capers plays a significant amount of zone though judging from the last two games he isn't playing it enough.

Part of the DB problem is mismatched parts. Justin Harrell has pointed this out: a guy like Shields is best in man to man. The others can do both though both House and Twill are really struggling in man. Without a great safety to clean up the mess, it looks terrible back there.

That skill mismatch is why I assign part of this blame to the coaches. Its long past time they all should be capable of playing all of the team's schemes.

[Patler]

How can John Schneider go out and find big defensive backs.

By taking chances with guys in the mid and lower draft rounds or as free agents. Not unlike what the Packers have done with Aaron Rouse (6'4"); Sean Richardson 6'2"; Brandon Underwood and Tyrone Culver (6'1"). Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Schneider has done a nice job in Seattle, but he hasn't won anything yet and he still has to show the ability to sustain a roster when his first batch of players are looking for 2nd contracts. I have no reason to believe that he won't be able to, but he has a lot to accomplish yet.

[Patler]

He has two monsters. One is a safety (Chancellor) and the other is Sherman at CB.

If you wanted to play zone, they would be in trouble. Capers plays a significant amount of zone though judging from the last two games he isn't playing it enough.

Part of the DB problem is mismatched parts. Justin Harrell has pointed this out: a guy like Shields is best in man to man. The others can do both though both House and Twill are really struggling in man. Without a great safety to clean up the mess, it looks terrible back there.

That skill mismatch is why I assign part of this blame to the coaches. Its long past time they all should be capable of playing all of the team's schemes.

This is a point I tried to make in another thread. They have already cycled through guys like Underwood and Lee and phased out great players like Woodson and Collins. Many of the problems we see today have been there forever, even when Woodson and Collins were on board. The differences now are that there is no one making up for mistakes like Collins could or freelancing into impact plays like Woodson could. But, they should still be able to play competent coverages. It makes me wonder how good Whitt and Perry really are.

[Bossman641]

A professional strength and conditioning staff, not the clowns they pulled out of the YMCA.

+1

Was thinking about this earlier. There really hasn't been a single position group that hasn't been hit hard by injuries. The healthiest position has been DL but even they are banged up now. After that I don't even know where I'd go. Safety since Burnett only missed 3 games?

[dahammer001]

I miss the days of Chuck Cecil and Tiger Greene creating fear in the secondary for opposing receivers

[George Cumby]

I miss the days of Chuck Cecil and Tiger Greene creating fear in the secondary for opposing receivers

Repped for the Tiger Greene reference.

[red]

I miss the days of Chuck Cecil and Tiger Greene creating fear in the secondary for opposing receivers

chuck cecil wouldn't even be allowed on the field in todays NFL

he was a one trick pony, and that trick has been banned

[MJZiggy]

chuck cecil wouldn't even be allowed on the field in todays NFL

he was a one trick pony, and that trick has been banned

This is what I was thinking. Maybe the Reggie White days...Count me in with wanting a new conditioning team.

[bobblehead]

You have to wonder if that group is gone this year. I read a comment from one of the beat guys about how the Packers revamped their nutrition plan in the offseason and tried to improve feng shui in order to improve their injury rate. Maybe it's time to look at that staff and replace them with some who can teach them how to gain functional strength and flexibility. I really wonder if they don't spend enough time on flexibility, mobility, and ROM.

Time to start some midweek Bikram Yoga

[OS PA]

Am I wrong in thinking that part of our problem is our coverage. It makes no sense to me that on third and longer than three, we play a deep shell with our CBs playing off by 10-15 yards. I think we should play consistent man on; On obvious passing downs, we play with a two safety shell covering anything that beats our press coverage. Simple. The Bears game was a blatant example of what happens when you're afraid to press a big receiver, and you let him sit in an open zone.

Hit the big boys at the line, if they beat you, cover them over the top.

Done.

[KYPack]

Am I wrong in thinking that part of our problem is our coverage. It makes no sense to me that on third and longer than three, we play a deep shell with our CBs playing off by 10-15 yards. I think we should play consistent man on; On obvious passing downs, we play with a two safety shell covering anything that beats our press coverage. Simple. The Bears game was a blatant example of what happens when you're afraid to press a big receiver, and you let him sit in an open zone.

Hit the big boys at the line, if they beat you, cover them over the top.

Done.

Sounds good, but it's too simplistic.

If press cover worked every time, nobody would play anything but press.

Playing press is no magic wand, it's just a way of covering.

Off cover can have it's advantage. I'd think if you looked at tape, the guy that was 10 -15 yards deep didn't have coverage in the short zone. sounds like the guy that showed that technique had the deep third and another DB or LB had the short slant or smoke route.

I really haven't seen any situations where the player that had the short routes was 10 - 15 deep in his technique. Fans seem to be in love with press. But press has it's problems. If you are smaller than the WR, you can go up and deliver a blow and then get in his hip and try and run with him. But you are gonna lose more than you are gonna win. I'd rather play off technique, shading the receiver to take away his "sugar" route and deliver my blow when the ball arrives. The smaller player really only gets to deliver one quality blow, I'd rather do it when it means breaking up the pass. The guy you are seeing that is deep probably doesn't have the initial coverage, somebody else has the short route.

[Bretsky]

Even when he returns next year, do you really expect him to stay healthy?

I ran the numbers somewhere else, but by the end of the year, his availability percentage will be as bad as Sherrod.

I suspect Hyde as safety (as much as I don't like those moves) might be the thing they try next year.


To me Bulaga has shown the ablity to excel at the Pro level so I'm being an optimist on his return.

[Bretsky]

By taking chances with guys in the mid and lower draft rounds or as free agents. Not unlike what the Packers have done with Aaron Rouse (6'4"); Sean Richardson 6'2"; Brandon Underwood and Tyrone Culver (6'1"). Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Schneider has done a nice job in Seattle, but he hasn't won anything yet and he still has to show the ability to sustain a roster when his first batch of players are looking for 2nd contracts. I have no reason to believe that he won't be able to, but he has a lot to accomplish yet.


John Schneider is an example of somebody who has used a nice mixture of the drafting, trading, and free agency.

[pbmax]

Am I wrong in thinking that part of our problem is our coverage. It makes no sense to me that on third and longer than three, we play a deep shell with our CBs playing off by 10-15 yards. I think we should play consistent man on; On obvious passing downs, we play with a two safety shell covering anything that beats our press coverage. Simple. The Bears game was a blatant example of what happens when you're afraid to press a big receiver, and you let him sit in an open zone.

Hit the big boys at the line, if they beat you, cover them over the top.

Done.

KY said most of what I was going to say. Press was how the Bears receivers climbed all over the Packer CBs two weeks ago. Without a pass rush, press will kill you versus better specimens.

The problem with the Packers zone/off coverage is tackling. If they make the tackle (Hayward/Hawk last week on the TE) then they prevent the first down. Earlier in the season when the tackling was better, they got a lot of stops with this.

Well, that and the fact that the safeties appear so worried about tackling players in front of them that they continually let receivers get behind them.

[red]

John Schneider is an example of somebody who has used a nice mixture of the drafting, trading, and free agency.

i understand what drafting is, but what are those other words?

[red]

KY said most of what I was going to say. Press was how the Bears receivers climbed all over the Packer CBs two weeks ago. Without a pass rush, press will kill you versus better specimens.

The problem with the Packers zone/off coverage is tackling. If they make the tackle (Hayward/Hawk last week on the TE) then they prevent the first down. Earlier in the season when the tackling was better, they got a lot of stops with this.

Well, that and the fact that the safeties appear so worried about tackling players in front of them that they continually let receivers get behind them.

the problem with our zone coverage is the massive holes we leave in the middle of the field, and the ability of our Cb's to let a guy run free through their zone only for a safety to not be in the right place to pick the guy up

how many times over the years have we seen a cb and safety look at each other after allowing a big catch and have both guys throw their hands up in the air

[Patler]

To me Bulaga has shown the ablity to excel at the Pro level so I'm being an optimist on his return.

I expect Bulaga to play well when he returns, I just don't expect him to play all that long before yet another injury crops up. At this point, I'm not sure he factors into their long range plans, unless he is willing to sign with a relatively low guarantee before he becomes a FA after 2014

[KYPack]

the problem with our zone coverage is the massive holes we leave in the middle of the field, and the ability of our Cb's to let a guy run free through their zone only for a safety to not be in the right place to pick the guy up

how many times over the years have we seen a cb and safety look at each other after allowing a big catch and have both guys throw their hands up in the air

Red, you are 100% right. With any zone coverage there is always a hole. When you play zone, everybody on D is relying on another player to give him help. The boys up front must provide heat to make the QB deliver the ball before those holes and seams get too big.

Our D has had two problems. There hasn't been enough heat and consistent pressure. The coverage is spotty bc our backliners don't instinctively know where to give the help and trust the other boys to give them help.

Good D is like a multi celled organism. When the offense shows, the 11 guys on D move as one to stop the play.

We haven't been real good at that lately.

[George Cumby]

Red, you are 100% right. With any zone coverage there is always a hole. When you play zone, everybody on D is relying on another player to give him help. The boys up front must provide heat to make the QB deliver the ball before those holes and seams get too big.

Our D has had two problems. There hasn't been enough heat and consistent pressure. The coverage is spotty bc our backliners don't instinctively know where to give the help and trust the other boys to give them help.

Good D is like a multi celled organism. When the offense shows, the 11 guys on D move as one to stop the play.

We haven't been real good at that lately.

The best example that I remember is the goal line stand against NO, opening day after the SB. I watched that play over and over, it was a thing of beauty, watching the D act as one. I think you mean single-celled organism as all eleven are sharing the hive mind.

[bobblehead]

John Schneider is an example of somebody who has used a nice mixture of the drafting, trading, and free agency.

And steroids and HgH.

[bobblehead]

i understand what drafting is, but what are those other words?

Those other things are what desperate GM's who aren't good at drafting do to compensate.

[KYPack]

The best example that I remember is the goal line stand against NO, opening day after the SB. I watched that play over and over, it was a thing of beauty, watching the D act as one. I think you mean single-celled organism as all eleven are sharing the hive mind.

I may have meant orgasm.

[Rutnstrut]

Those other things are what desperate GM's who aren't good at drafting do to compensate.

Well then TT better get to trading and free agency, because his whole draft and develop plan ain't working for shit for defensive players. He also seems to have a knack for picking the biggest pussies in the league.

[dahammer001]

how many times over the years have we seen a cb and safety look at each other after allowing a big catch and have both guys throw their hands up in the air Too many times

[gbgary]

Things that will make the packers better

actual starters playing instead of back-ups, back-up back-ups, and practice squad players,

getting back to jamming wrs and giving our pass rush an extra second to get to the qb,

d-lineman getting their hands in the air when a pass comes out,

a more direct running attack instead of the slow-developing sideways runs,

i'm thinking...

[Smidgeon]

This is a point I tried to make in another thread. They have already cycled through guys like Underwood and Lee and phased out great players like Woodson and Collins. Many of the problems we see today have been there forever, even when Woodson and Collins were on board. The differences now are that there is no one making up for mistakes like Collins could or freelancing into impact plays like Woodson could. But, they should still be able to play competent coverages. It makes me wonder how good Whitt and Perry really are.

I brought this up in another thread, and it's been something I've at least been wondering in the back of my mind for a couple years. Too much of the same problem over and over again.

[dahammer001]

It makes me wonder how good Whitt and Perry really are. They both suck

[woodbuck27]

s.

How do you see our team's DB's matching up 'physically' Vs the pass? We don't. Using logical here if everybody is employing tall receivers then you draft bigger DB's.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81917b29/article/defensive-backs-continue-to-rise-in-prominence-draft-stature

Defensive backs continue to rise in prominence, draft stature

By Gil Brandt NFL.com NFL Media senior analyst

Published: July 12, 2010 at 08:06 p.m


" Seven defensive backs were selected in the first round of the 2010 draft and a total of 12 overall in the first two rounds, including the fifth-overall pick and the seventh-overall pick of Round 1 (Kansas City's Eric Berry at five, Cleveland's Joe Haden at seven). Very seldom do we have two defensive backs picked this high.

The feeling around the NFL is that you can never have too many good cornerbacks. The key trait for this position is speed -- speed to break on the ball and the speed to turn and run with a wide receiver.

Height is also important due to the size of wide receivers.

Because of the empty backfield, one running back and multi-receiver sets, teams feel it's important to have three cornerbacks on the field a high percentage of the time in order to match up against all the fast wide receivers in coverage. Sometimes teams will have a third (slot) corner on the field as much as 75 percent of the time. The league average is about 64 percent."

Comment woodbuck27:

Memo to Ted Thompson. Please read the above LINK.

Thank You Ted

GO PACK GO !

[Pugger]

Well then TT better get to trading and free agency, because his whole draft and develop plan ain't working for shit for defensive players. He also seems to have a knack for picking the biggest pussies in the league.

Yeah, those pussies getting hurt all the time. Its all TT's fault ya know.

[denverYooper]

Yeah, those pussies getting hurt all the time. Its all TT's fault ya know.

It keeps coming back to this. Green Bay has had an absolutely ridiculous number of injuries this year, including the most important one. If I step back and look at it reasonably, I'm surprised that they've kept the last 3 close until late in the games. The fact of it is that they just don't have the healthy horses to make the one or two impact plays that could win them one of these.

[oldbutnotdeadyet]

Yes, I agree, but why is it that this team always seems to have 'a ton of injuries'? Bad water in Green Bay? Football gods out to get the Packers? Or something the team is either doing or not doing? I am old...

[pbmax]

I think this team has close to a similar number of injuries as other teams looked at over a number of years.

But I bet they keep them out longer because McCarthy defers to the medical staff completely as far as we know.

[denverYooper]

I think this team has close to a similar number of injuries as other teams looked at over a number of years.

But I bet they keep them out longer because McCarthy defers to the medical staff completely as far as we know.

Are you talking about something like a 5 year average?

[pbmax]

Are you talking about something like a 5 year average?

Something like that. 2010 and this year have been terrible. 2011 and 12 were better.

I am not saying that the Packers would not be better if they had a year like the 49ers did last year in terms of health, but I suspect the number of incidents is not outrageous.

[run pMc]

Things that will make the Packers better:
Less injuries
Good drafting

More specifically for this season -- getting Rodgers, Cobb, Barclay back on offense, and Shields, Perry, Hayward and Pickett's knees back on D.

Longer term, they'll need a TE that can run down the seam and threaten the middle, and a Safety or two who can cover, tackle, and get the secondary on the same page (preferably the same one that Capers and the front 7 are supposedly on).

I'd guess the Packers have had an above average # of starters out/lost due to injury, whether you're looking at this year or a 5 year data sample.
"Next man up" is a nice mantra, but if that next guy is a rookie UDFA who is still learning the playbook, any top-15 QB will exploit that.

[Pugger]

Things that will make the Packers better:
Less injuries
Good drafting

More specifically for this season -- getting Rodgers, Cobb, Barclay back on offense, and Shields, Perry, Hayward and Pickett's knees back on D.

Longer term, they'll need a TE that can run down the seam and threaten the middle, and a Safety or two who can cover, tackle, and get the secondary on the same page (preferably the same one that Capers and the front 7 are supposedly on).

I'd guess the Packers have had an above average # of starters out/lost due to injury, whether you're looking at this year or a 5 year data sample.
"Next man up" is a nice mantra, but if that next guy is a rookie UDFA who is still learning the playbook, any top-15 QB will exploit that.

This.

[dahammer001]

Packer nation may disagree, but I like the big receiver with the large catch radius. Now Rodgers would be even deadlier in the red zone.. Jump balls no problem. Remember everybody has that receiver exceptt the packers. The 6:4 to 6:5 receiver.

[pbmax]

Well, they had that until Finley was out. Unless we are not counting TEs. But if we aren't, then NE and Denver don't have them either.

[woodbuck27]

Well, they had that until Finley was out. Unless we are not counting TEs. But if we aren't, then NE and Denver don't have them either.

Aren't we talking about the future or moving forward or ................. (ahead) in time.

Does it seem realistic that TE JerMichael Finley will make it back onto the Packer Roster?

I doubt that will be the case strongly and so JerMichael Finley is removed from the conversation of receivers and big and fast and strong.

GO PACKERS !

[pbmax]

Aren't we talking about the future or moving forward or ................. (ahead) in time.

Does it seem realistic that TE JerMichael Finley will make it back onto the Packer Roster?

I doubt that will be the case strongly and so JerMichael Finley is removed from the conversation of receivers and big and fast and strong.

GO PACKERS !

Fair question. I was answering about how the team in constructed this season, not in the future. But I would expect a player matching hammer's description to more likely play TE for the Packers even in the future. So I am not sure if that meets his criteria or not.

[red]

Well, they had that until Finley was out. Unless we are not counting TEs. But if we aren't, then NE and Denver don't have them either.

does finley have a huge catch radius though? does he go up and grab balls that up for grabs like megatron does?

i've never seen himdo that, and least not in awhile

from what i can remember,this early in the morning, if the ball isn't thrown right to him, he's not going for it

did the guy ever sell out for a catch or fight for a ball? i'd say rarely if ever, and thats been my beef with him all along

[denverYooper]

That's exactly what this team needs to get over the hump, another wide receiver.

[Pugger]

Packer nation may disagree, but I like the big receiver with the large catch radius. Now Rodgers would be even deadlier in the red zone.. Jump balls no problem. Remember everybody has that receiver exceptt the packers. The 6:4 to 6:5 receiver.

I don't know if I'd call Jordy small.

[Fritz]

Part of the problem is that it's not just the number of injuries, it's the season or career ending seriousness that sets this team apart. You lose important pieces for three or four games on many teams, but how often do you lose your pro bowl, possible hall of famer safety while he's in his prime - for the rest of his career? Or your top end tight end - possible for the rest of his career? Or both first round tackles you drafted in three of the last four years? Or your rookie of the year in his second year, lost for the vast majority of his second season? Or your first round OLB, lost for most of his rookie year and vast swaths of his second?

I only have the Leos to compare, since I don't follow the NFL outside the Packers too much. But I know the Lions don't have near the number or severity of injuries. Not even close.

[run pMc]

Lions have been pretty lucky with injuries this year, as long as they aren't trying to drive and eat pizza.

Their Big 3 of Stafford, Bush and Megatron have injury histories, but that team has much less depth than GB. They've lost games where Bush or Johnson sat out with injuries this year, and Shaun Hill is a decent backup but if Stafford went out I'm not sure he could win them the division.

Even with the rules the protect QB's, it's hard to expect your starter to be there for a full 16 games (plus playoffs, with Rodgers) every season. The odds of an injury are too high IMO.

[Zool]

Fuck are you guys brainwashable by TV. Gruden comes up with a BS term called catch radius and you bite down like it's your last supper.

[denverYooper]

Lions have been pretty lucky with injuries this year, as long as they aren't trying to drive and eat pizza.

Their Big 3 of Stafford, Bush and Megatron have injury histories, but that team has much less depth than GB. They've lost games where Bush or Johnson sat out with injuries this year, and Shaun Hill is a decent backup but if Stafford went out I'm not sure he could win them the division.

Even with the rules the protect QB's, it's hard to expect your starter to be there for a full 16 games (plus playoffs, with Rodgers) every season. The odds of an injury are too high IMO.

Without Megatron, that offense is crap.

[pbmax]

I think we should trademark "catch diameter".

[Zool]

I think we should trademark "catch diameter".

QB pass accuracy circumference

[Cheesehead Craig]

wist as the DC (just checking if you're lurking out there buddy)

[woodbuck27]

wist as the DC (just checking if you're lurking out there buddy)

Wist isn't the type too ever need to gloat.

That's because he's generally too by far correct in his foresight and what he simply see's and trys his level best to communicate to us all here at Packerrats.

He's stubborn 'only' because it's a stubborn crowd.

[red]

Part of the problem is that it's not just the number of injuries, it's the season or career ending seriousness that sets this team apart. You lose important pieces for three or four games on many teams, but how often do you lose your pro bowl, possible hall of famer safety while he's in his prime - for the rest of his career? Or your top end tight end - possible for the rest of his career? Or both first round tackles you drafted in three of the last four years? Or your rookie of the year in his second year, lost for the vast majority of his second season? Or your first round OLB, lost for most of his rookie year and vast swaths of his second?

I only have the Leos to compare, since I don't follow the NFL outside the Packers too much. But I know the Lions don't have near the number or severity of injuries. Not even close.

when you have these sudden career enders like collins and maybe finley, shouldn't that give you a little bit of a reason to look at free agency to help out?

i mean we're carying over so much cap room year after year, why not finally use some of that money on a guy like jarius byrd?

getting a competent safety this offseason has to be priority #1, and its a very weak draft class for those guys. we absolutely can not go into next season with md jennings or mcmillan penciled in as a starter. we need a hell of a playerto help fix that mess back there

heres a list of safeties that will be free agents this off season. theres some decent players there

http://www.spotrac.com/free-agents/nfl/safety/

[red]

then you look at TE's because we could use some of those, and you'll see a few more nice names that could help out. the big one the steps out to me is jimmy graham

http://www.spotrac.com/free-agents/nfl/tight-end/

[woodbuck27]

then you look at TE's because we could use some of those, and you'll see a few more nice names that could help out. the big one the steps out to me is jimmy graham

http://www.spotrac.com/free-agents/nfl/tight-end/

Jimmy Graham >>> $$$$money$$$$.

All the same.....

I have difficulty believing that the Saints will let him walk.

[woodbuck27]

when you have these sudden career enders like collins and maybe finley, shouldn't that give you a little bit of a reason to look at free agency to help out?

i mean we're carying over so much cap room year after year, why not finally use some of that money on a guy like jarius byrd?

getting a competent safety this offseason has to be priority #1, and its a very weak draft class for those guys. we absolutely can not go into next season with md jennings or mcmillan penciled in as a starter. we need a hell of a playerto help fix that mess back there

heres a list of safeties that will be free agents this off season. theres some decent players there

http://www.spotrac.com/free-agents/nfl/safety/

Ahhhhh ........... Ted Thompson.

[red]

Jimmy Graham >>> $$$$money$$$$.

All the same.....

I have difficulty believing that the Saints will let him walk.

and we had the highest paid TE on our squad this year, so what?

i would rather have graham at 9 million a year then finley at 9 million a year

jimmy graham IS the TE that finley always had the "POTENTIAL" to be

[KYPack]

This is a point I tried to make in another thread. They have already cycled through guys like Underwood and Lee and phased out great players like Woodson and Collins. Many of the problems we see today have been there forever, even when Woodson and Collins were on board. The differences now are that there is no one making up for mistakes like Collins could or freelancing into impact plays like Woodson could. But, they should still be able to play competent coverages. It makes me wonder how good Whitt and Perry really are.

I've puzzled over this and have really come back to square 1.

Firstly, I know Perry and Whitt are brilliant position coaches. Whitt coached up two totally green kids and made them all-pro material. Perry put the last coat of varnish on Nick Collins and made him one of the 3 best safeties in the league.

But positional coaching is only one facet of their gigs. That back line has to think and act as a unit. Have we been getting that?

I don't think so, mommy.

Both of 'em have the experience, the savvy, and the dedication to get this back end in gear.

But, it ain't happening. The safeties are the most troubling. There seems to be both a lack of leadership AND athleticism. The whole back end doesn't have THAT GUY. Somebody has to start making plays and picking some passes. I think our DB's have 3 picks this season. There has to be an attitude of, if they complete a good toss, I'll get ready to defend the next play. If it's up for grabs, it's MY ball. I don't see that cat roaming around our D backfield.

There has to be the spirit of stopping the other team from passing the ball at will. There needs to be a Wood or a Collins type effort. The whole idea has to be that we will pick poor throws and knock the shit out of anyone who catches a good toss.

So are Whitt and Perry suck coaches?

Nah, I blame the boys to the larger extent.

The DC? Sure, Capers has to share in this

The scheme? It's been around a long time, maybe it's time to get a young guy with more basic schemes that reward aggression and decisive play. it's seems like this scheme requires vets, that a young kid gets lost in all the detail.

The position coaches? Nobody gets to duck all the blame in this mess.

The players? I'm going to have to play a game that I hate. Blame the safety. I get so sick of idiots that blame the deepest guy when many times the backliner has made a great play to even be back there, in position to make a save for his side. but Morgan Burnett has to be held accountable. I've seen some great safeties in my time. Robert Griffith, Leroy Butler, Nick Collins, and the great Ed Reed. Burnett isn't even an average guy back there. Well, maybe average, but he is certainly not the leader of that bunch. And that is the key. People will follow you if you lead. Burnett does a pretty good job of waving his hands and pointing, to get the boys lined up & all. But he makes very few plays. One averge play followed b a good one, followed by a stinker. that ain't hacking the program

[woodbuck27]

and we had the highest paid TE on our squad this year, so what?

i would rather have graham at 9 million a year then finley at 9 million a year

jimmy graham IS the TE that finley always had the "POTENTIAL" to be

Hey red I would be estatic iff TT went hard after Jimmy Graham. That man is a player.

[woodbuck27]

I've puzzled over this and have really come back to square 1.

Firstly, I know Perry and Whitt are brilliant position coaches. Whitt coached up two totally green kids and made them all-pro material. Perry put the last coat of varnish on Nick Collins and made him one of the 3 best safeties in the league.

But positional coaching is only one facet of their gigs. That back line has to think and act as a unit. Have we been getting that?

I don't think so, mommy.

Both of 'em have the experience, the savvy, and the dedication to get this back end in gear.

But, it ain't happening. The safeties are the most troubling. There seems to be both a lack of leadership AND athleticism. The whole back end doesn't have THAT GUY. Somebody has to start making plays and picking some passes. I think our DB's have 3 picks this season. There has to be an attitude of, if they complete a good toss, I'll get ready to defend the next play. If it's up for grabs, it's MY ball. I don't see that cat roaming around our D backfield.

There has to be the spirit of stopping the other team from passing the ball at will. There needs to be a Wood or a Collins type effort. The whole idea has to be that we will pick poor throws and knock the shit out of anyone who catches a good toss.

So are Whitt and Perry suck coaches?

Nah, I blame the boys to the larger extent.

The DC? Sure, Capers has to share in this

The scheme? It's been around a long time, maybe it's time to get a young guy with more basic schemes that reward aggression and decisive play. it's seems like this scheme requires vets, that a young kid gets lost in all the detail.

The position coaches? Nobody gets to duck all the blame in this mess.

The players? I'm going to have to play a game that I hate. Blame the safety. I get so sick of idiots that blame the deepest guy when many times the backliner has made a great play to even be back there, in position to make a save for his side. but Morgan Burnett has to be held accountable. I've seen some great safeties in my time. Robert Griffith, Leroy Butler, Nick Collins, and the great Ed Reed. Burnett isn't even an average guy back there. Well, maybe average, but he is certainly not the leader of that bunch. And that is the key. People will follow you if you lead. Burnett does a pretty good job of waving his hands and pointing, to get the boys lined up & all. But he makes very few plays. One averge play followed b a good one, followed by a stinker. that ain't hacking the program

An awesome KYPack post !!!!

Air it out Packerrats because just like the Green Bay Packers your undies are stinking.... cause you've had to hold it in too long.

Let's face it! This team we support has some real need of a mending.

I believe it has to start with a focus on attaining some more real talent. We need two three more solid talents on the roster and the focus must remain on the defensive side of the ball.

If that doesn't get done starting yesterday; and screw this too much injuries crap some of you seem to lean on as an excuse. If this doesn't get done all you'll get used to is losing.

I want to see more playoff wins. I want to see our team get more respect/FEAR.

GO PACK GO !

[run pMc]

Jimmy Graham >>> $$$$money$$$$.

All the same.....

I have difficulty believing that the Saints will let him walk.

He's a major piece of their offense. They'll pay him like a star WR.

Tony Gonzalez and Dallas Clark will probably retire. Dustin Keller and Dennis Pitta are coming off significant injuries. Who knows with Finley. There are some possibilities in red's lists, but a lot of players with warts. Given TT's MO, I expect him to restock through the draft.

[run pMc]

The safeties are the most troubling. There seems to be both a lack of leadership AND athleticism. The whole back end doesn't have THAT GUY. Somebody has to start making plays and picking some passes. I think our DB's have 3 picks this season. There has to be an attitude of, if they complete a good toss, I'll get ready to defend the next play. If it's up for grabs, it's MY ball. I don't see that cat roaming around our D backfield.

There has to be the spirit of stopping the other team from passing the ball at will. There needs to be a Wood or a Collins type effort. The whole idea has to be that we will pick poor throws and knock the shit out of anyone who catches a good toss

+1

[woodbuck27]

+1

+2 RE: a BIG need at S. We need a hitter and Ball Hawk in the back middle.

A whole season later and we see the exact same problem.

Will TT address that this year?

[denverYooper]

But, it ain't happening. The safeties are the most troubling. There seems to be both a lack of leadership AND athleticism. The whole back end doesn't have THAT GUY. Somebody has to start making plays and picking some passes. I think our DB's have 3 picks this season. There has to be an attitude of, if they complete a good toss, I'll get ready to defend the next play. If it's up for grabs, it's MY ball. I don't see that cat roaming around our D backfield.


Nice post KY. What do you think about Tramon as the guy who's been stepping up to (at least try to) take on that role? He's been around the ball a lot and lately has been making some impact plays. Is he screwing up a lot of other plays at the expense of the flashy ones? Does he just need to take more of a vocal lead on the team?

[Bossman641]

Good post KY, but is the scheme really that difficult? The secondary has had issues with sorting out bunched WR's for years now. Look at the Tramon/Burnett mixup from Sunday for exampe. Scheme or no scheme, how difficult should it be for 2 defenders to sort out who is guarding what WR?

[KYPack]

Good post KY, but is the scheme really that difficult? The secondary has had issues with sorting out bunched WR's for years now. Look at the Tramon/Burnett mixup from Sunday for exampe. Scheme or no scheme, how difficult should it be for 2 defenders to sort out who is guarding what WR?

Sure, that cock-up was kind of the inspiration of that post.

No, it shouldn't be that hard to sort out a bunch formation and in today's NFL, it's absolutely necessary to know those assignments cold.

Most O's run a 3 WR bunch 10 -20 times a game.

It has to be second nature to get your responsibilities nailed right at the snap.

The old saying is, "It ain't the X's and the O's, it's the Jims and the Joes".

I think we some issues in both camps, both personnel and scheme.

[George Cumby]

Truly, how does one replace Woodson and Collins?

Talent of that caliber doesn't come calling very often.