Patriot-Panther Call Correct?

[pbmax]

http://www.patspulpit.com/2013/11/19/5121100/rules-breaking-down-the-final-play

By definition, could not be Illegal Contact or D Holding after the ball is thrown and Brady has left the pocket.

PI allows the contact if the ball is uncatchable.

[MadScientist]

http://www.patspulpit.com/2013/11/19/5121100/rules-breaking-down-the-final-play

By definition, could not be Illegal Contact or D Holding after the ball is thrown and Brady has left the pocket.

PI allows the contact if the ball is uncatchable.

Was it uncatchable because the ball was underthrown and Gronk's route took him too deep, or was in uncatchable because Gronk was ridden past the point were he could cut back and make a play on the ball. Tough call, but Gronk did not look like he was trying to cut back hard to the ball, so I don't think he had a chance to catch it even without the defender. His momentum was too strong to the back line. So I think it was the correct call, though a PI call would not have been blatantly wrong.

[Teamcheez1]

If it had been a Packers defender in the end zone, it would have been called.

[pbmax]

I am stunned they picked it up because no one (except the home crowd) would have blamed them for calling it.

But I don't think Gronk gets in front of the Panther to catch it. He perhaps could have gotten a hand on the defender to break it up.

[bobblehead]

I thought it was uncatchable. Gronk took the route deep, no way I believe he could have gotten back to the ball. Momentum was already heading the wrong way. I don't like seeing a ref call a "judgement" call with game on the line, I was glad they picked the flag up....however, as a packer fan rooting for the wildcard, I wanted the call to stand.

[TravisWilliams23]

https://v.cdn.vine.co/r/videos/3C9D62FCF71014441809868648448_1db4602076b.4.3.1822 7762040472141049_4qCbw1no2k..bQDfM8ef1haZzL3YGKBtl 6HnIGleLMoqFfnw6fEc13lG6CvsGoMc.mp4?versionId=vKqo _kn7.c4ZJZvsm7qD0XzqJGEeaaRL
That's PI. Balls in the air and Kuechly shoves Gronk away from the ball without looking back at the ball. Doesn't matter if the game is on the line, it's pass interference. Ref's made a "home team" call by picking up the flag.

[woodbuck27]

Article 2:

Prohibited Acts:

(a) Contact by a player who is not playing the ball that restricts the opponent’s opportunity to make the catch.

(c) Grabbing an opponent’s arm(s) in such a manner that restricts his opportunity to catch a pass.

(d) Extending an arm across the body of an opponent, thus restricting his ability to catch a pass, and regardless of whether the player committing such act is playing the ball.

(e) Cutting off the path of an opponent by making contact with him, without playing the ball.

So it's clear that Panthers linebacker Luke Kuechly violated the above four rulings on pass interference, at the very least.

Except:

Article 3:


Permissible Acts:

(c) Contact that would normally be considered pass interference, but the pass is clearly uncatchable by the involved players.

And therein lies the question. Was the pass catchable?

The back judge closest to the play threw the flag, so I think he'd have a fairly good idea. Add in the fact that Gronkowski started to get mugged at the rough location the ball landed, and you have my thought on whether or not that was catchable.

But that's the discussion and that's the call that the refs had to make at the time.

Comment woodbuck27:

Therein lies the correct call. IMO a PI penalty should have been called. See above... " Gronkowski started to get mugged at the rough location the ball landed. "

The Pat's 'at least' deserved one more chance or looking at it another way the Carolina Panthers had to win the game fairly by making one more stop.

It sure looked to me like the officials made the right call for the home team and crowd.....again. The safe call was made.

That sucks.

[Patler]

I didn't see the play, and it isn't clear from the photo, but could he have stepped on or over the end line? If he did, I think it is automatically considered uncatchable to him, and P.I. doesn't apply to him.

[red]

i think its uncatchable because the ball would have physically had to go through the panther defender that was standing between gronk and the ball

there is no way that gronk would have been able to get in front of the guy that picked off the pass

[pbmax]

Not only would the ball have had to be missed by the safety, but Gronkowski would have had to fight through Kuechly, PI or not.

Gronkowski essentially gives up on the ball. He presents no resistance or fight through Kuechly. The only guy to make a play on the ball is the safety. Saying Kuechly mugged him is simply misleading. Gronk didn't resist and Kuechly basely needed to touch him.

[woodbuck27]

I didn't see the play, and it isn't clear from the photo, but could he have stepped on or over the end line? If he did, I think it is automatically considered uncatchable to him, and P.I. doesn't apply to him.

Here`s the LINK to this controversial call by the officials:

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2013111800/2013/REG11/patriots@panthers#menu=highlights&tab=recap

Please Click on `Brady has words with Ref.....`

Brady`s throw is picked by Panther safety Robert Lester as Gronk was held and held out of the play by Panther MLB Luke Kuechly.

How does Gronk react back towords the ball (the throw) when he`s being held and forced to the back of the end zone by MLB Luke Kuechly? The hold by Kuechly on Gronkowski is obvious and prolonged until the interception in the end zone is made.

The prolonged hold is obvious. Whether without that hold Gronk could have gotten back to the ball is moot as he was being held.

How could it be positively determined that Gronk couldn`t have recovered back to the throw and ball if not held? That flag was thrown because of an obvious PI. That should have been upheld given the effort put forward by the New England Patriots to recover and win that game.

The Patriots were denied one last play and that wasn`r correct.

[pbmax]

It can be positively determined that he never could get back to the ball because he did not even try to fight through Kuechly. He doesn't shove him, move twist or drive into him. Its the weakest of touches.

[Patler]

Thanks for the link Woodbuck. It doesn't appear that he was ever anywhere close to stepping out.

[Bretsky]

It can be positively determined that he never could get back to the ball because he did not even try to fight through Kuechly. He doesn't shove him, move twist or drive into him. Its the weakest of touches.

They screwed up; Gronk should have made the call easy though. Hoody should have him doing punishment pushups in the rain for hours.

They had the former head of NFL refs on NFL Network. He noted this was an easy call. The ball was nowhere near far enough away, in his interpretation, to label it as uncatchable the way the refs are trained. It was a botched call in his view and there should not be much debate with the way the refs are supposed to interpret this.

[Patler]

It can be positively determined that he never could get back to the ball because he did not even try to fight through Kuechly. He doesn't shove him, move twist or drive into him. Its the weakest of touches.

That was my first impression. If he had tried to come back and fallen over the defender, the call might have gone the other way. He didn't appear to even try.

[Freak Out]

I don't care really just because it was Brady and company. :)

Does he ever go out and meet the other team at midfield after the game?

[woodbuck27]

That was my first impression. If he had tried to come back and fallen over the defender, the call might have gone the other way. He didn't appear to even try.

Gronk was wrapped up.

Gronk reacted to the fact he was interfered with.

Certainly Panthers NO. 69 Luke Kuechly clutched NO. 87 Gronkowski with both arms around Gronks body. Kuechly clears Gronk to the rear of the end zone and opened up the passing lane so that Panthers NO. 38 can move to his right across the end zone and intercept Tom Brady`s pass.

Luke Kuechly was assigned to Gronkowski all game. Luke Kuechly is fast and very strong; a tremendous defensive asset to the Carolina Panthers.

With his ( Kuechly`s) arms around Gronk and guilty of an obvious pass interference.

Does Gronk have to wrestle him to the ground before moving to the ball which was intercepted about 6-7 feet towords the goal line from his position ?

Is that necessary to negate an obvious defensive player HOLD on him? It shouldn`t be.

Think about that play and final call as if that was Jordy Nelson trying to make that same play with a defender giving him any form of bear hug.

[woodbuck27]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2013/11/19/former-officials-disagree-panthers-patriots-pass-interference-non-call/3641985/

Ex-NFL officials disagree on non-call to end Patriots-Panthers game

Tom Pelissero, USA TODAY Sports 9:36 p.m. EST November 19, 2013

"...former official disagrees — and says others are on his side.

"As soon as I saw the play, I knew there was a foul," Jim Daopoulos, who spent 11 years as an NFL back judge and umpire and later was a supervisor of officials with the league, told USA TODAY Sports by phone Tuesday.

"I guess what troubled me the most was officials getting involved when they don't need to be involved in that and trying to talk this young guy out of throwing that flag. Every official I've talked to today has said, 'It's a foul. You've got to keep the flag down.' "..."

and:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000284486/article/referee-we-made-right-noncall-in-panthers-win

" Reasonable minds disagree (with the officials final call).

Fox Sports analyst and former NFL vice president of officiating Mike Pereira believes there was clear contact before the interception and the officials should have stuck with the penalty call.

NBC officiating analyst Jim Daopoulos also believes the officials made the wrong call. He believes the ball was catchable.

Gronkowski didn't appear to have a chance to "sit down" on his route or move back to the underthrown ball because he was being held..."

[Guiness]

Looks like PI to me. I don't know how you can wrap up a the intended target like that while the ball is in the air and get away with it. I think if Gronk had sold it a bit more he would've gotten the call.

Seems like the league is changing their story up. Blandino apparently said:

Blandino said the back judge threw a flag on Panthers linebacker Luke Kuechly for grabbing Patriots tight end Rob Gronkowski but the side judge came in and told the back judge that Panthers safety Robert Lester had already touched the ball before Kuechly restricted Gronkowski’s movement.

pretty sure Lester hadn't touched the ball yet

[Patler]

No, he doesn't have to stumble over the guy for the call to be made, but receivers do stuff like that all the time to make it an "easier" call for the official. If he doesn't try to get to it, it can look uncatchable, or the interference can look incidental.

[woodbuck27]

Looks like PI to me. I don't know how you can wrap up a the intended target like that while the ball is in the air and get away with it. I think if Gronk had sold it a bit more he would've gotten the call.

Seems like the league is changing their story up. Blandino apparently said:


pretty sure Lester hadn't touched the ball yet

and your correct.

Look at the clip and as Gronk cross`s the goal line ** hit your pause and study the positions of the two defenders relative to Gronk.

** Repeat that** until after the interception is made by the Panthers Safety NO. 38 Robert Lester.

The flag was correctly thrown by the back judge and shouldn`t under all circumstances been removed from the ground. That penalty was obvious and should have stood up.

The Patriots should have been awarded one more play based on a clear PI or an obvious defensive player hold on Pats TE Gronkowski.

[Pugger]

I didn't see the play, and it isn't clear from the photo, but could he have stepped on or over the end line? If he did, I think it is automatically considered uncatchable to him, and P.I. doesn't apply to him.

Are you asking if Gronk stepped out of bounds? I don't think he did.

I thought it was PI because Kuechly was impeding Gronk with his arms around him. Gronk couldn't get near to the ball to attempt a catch because he was impeded by the defender.

[Patler]

Interesting that Gronkowski said yesterday that there was no pass interference and the flag should not have been thrown in the first place. Apparently no controversy in his opinion.

[woodbuck27]

Interesting that Gronkowski said yesterday that there was no pass interference and the flag should not have been thrown in the first place. Apparently no controversy in his opinion.

Holy Mackeral !

Here it is and it's too clear that the officials missed on this one.

What is wrong with any of you that you can't see that?

Give it your open mind please and study that play and you'll see that Gronkowski was clearly interfered with.

The next thing you know this sort of slip shod officiating will be 'in your face' as a Packer fan.

*** http://russellstreetreport.com/bad-officiating-is-ruining-the-nfl/

Bad Officiating is Ruining the NFL

Posted on November 19, 2013 by Tony Lombardi

Look at this LINK and clearly you should see that the NE Pats were victimized by BS officiating on that end of game play.

Two Times *** !

http://russellstreetreport.com/bad-officiating-is-ruining-the-nfl/

[pbmax]

No, he doesn't have to stumble over the guy for the call to be made, but receivers do stuff like that all the time to make it an "easier" call for the official. If he doesn't try to get to it, it can look uncatchable, or the interference can look incidental.

It looks like Gronk doesn't think its catchable which is precisely the opposite reaction receivers usually have.

EDIT: It looks like Gronk agrees with his own in-game assessment.

[TravisWilliams23]

How much of the players not criticizing the officials can be attributed to warnings and fines from the league from doing so? They know they won't change the outcome of the call or game so is it worth $5000 or $10000 to vent? TB vented with the official right after the game with profanity but by the post game interview he had a total "relaxed and rational" answer to the reporters questions. Sounded like he knew it wasn't worth the trouble to blame the call. Kudos to him and Gronk for controlling their responses.

[red]

if the ball doesn't get to the receiver then how is it catchable?

no ball= no catch

[woodbuck27]

if the ball doesn't get to the receiver then how is it catchable?

no ball= no catch

Your referring to this play?:

http://russellstreetreport.com/bad-officiating-is-ruining-the-nfl/

Gronkowski is impeded from getting back to the ball by Panthers MLB Luke Kuechly; obviously held and moved away from the destination of the ball (pass) in the end zone. Even with that hold Gronk was maybe at most two of his steps away from the destination of the ball or not much more than his body length.

Secondly..... If Gronk isn't interfered with and moved back by the Panthers MLB. The Panthers safety NO. 38 Robert Lester would otherwise be blocked from getting to the pass (ball).

Gronk would have had some opportunity to make the catch. With the PI that opportunity was lost.

The PI was obvious and thus the flag was correctly tossed by the backline judge. That should have stood as a penalty against the Panthers.

[Patler]

Woodbuck, I understand you passion for the letter of the rules. I tend to think that way too. But, Gronkowski's comments yesterday, that there was no P.I., is making me think about this differently. I suspect he is evaluating it with respect to what normally happens and what is allowed on an average play. Contact is common. Defenders trying to shield a player from his intended route, the receiver pushing to separate, all happen to some extent on a majority of plays, especially in the confined area of the red zone.

Maybe in his own mind, Gronkowaki knows he could never have made it back to the ball, and he knows he didn't try. Thus, while the defender was clearly shielding him, he knows it didn't actually affect anything that he tried to do. He knows he intended to go to the back of the endzone, and he knows he didn't even try to come back to the ball. The rest was just typically jostling that he deals with all the time.

Could that be it??

[Patler]

Gronkowski is probably thinking; "If pretty-boy Tom had thrown it high and deep in the endzone, I could have caught the dang thing!"

[Guiness]

Woodbuck, I understand you passion for the letter of the rules. I tend to think that way too. But, Gronkowski's comments yesterday, that there was no P.I., is making me think about this differently. I suspect he is evaluating it with respect to what normally happens and what is allowed on an average play. Contact is common. Defenders trying to shield a player from his intended route, the receiver pushing to separate, all happen to some extent on a majority of plays, especially in the confined area of the red zone.

Maybe in his own mind, Gronkowaki knows he could never have made it back to the ball, and he knows he didn't try. Thus, while the defender was clearly shielding him, he knows it didn't actually affect anything that he tried to do. He knows he intended to go to the back of the endzone, and he knows he didn't even try to come back to the ball. The rest was just typically jostling that he deals with all the time.

Could that be it??

I agree with this, except that I wouldn't call it 'shielding'. Looked like an outright hold to me, the LB pretty much had him wrapped up. But then I was surprised when the league said there is no defensive holding once the ball is in the air. Never heard that before, you learn something new every day!

[Pugger]

Gronkowski is probably thinking; "If pretty-boy Tom had thrown it high and deep in the endzone, I could have caught the dang thing!"

:lol:

I will say Brady's demeanor in the post game press conference was pretty calm considering how close they came to pulling that game out.

[Guiness]

Found a great photo on Sportsline. I just don't see how this is not a penalty. Maybe not PI, but it has to be something!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BZaHGV2IgAAsIwv.jpg

[Cheesehead Craig]

Not only would the ball have had to be missed by the safety, but Gronkowski would have had to fight through Kuechly, PI or not.

Gronkowski essentially gives up on the ball. He presents no resistance or fight through Kuechly. The only guy to make a play on the ball is the safety. Saying Kuechly mugged him is simply misleading. Gronk didn't resist and Kuechly basely needed to touch him.


Gronkowski is probably thinking; "If pretty-boy Tom had thrown it high and deep in the endzone, I could have caught the dang thing!"

I agree with pb, that Gronk to me more gave up on the play than was taken out of it. Plus add in that Brady's throw really wasn't that good.

[pbmax]

Try this one:

He has to stop his retreat to the back line and doesn't. He also needs to push through or go around Kuechly to get the ball. Despite EVERY Patriots fan saying the ball would have landed right in Gronk's arms if not interfered with, its farther to the inside/left of Gronk that the still photo makes it seem.

http://nesncom.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/822650031.gif?w=598&h=337

[pbmax]

Seeing something more now. He plants his right foot to stop his momentum because if he keeps running through the end zone at his current vector, he will overrun the ball.

But by slowing, he loses the step on Kuechly he had when he first went into the end zone and getting bumped makes his position deeper and worse.

The reason he doesn't try to shed Kuechly right away is that the throw is now headed right for the safety and his only hope was to wait for the ball.

I will say this, the bump starts earlier than I thought but part of its effect is Gronk slowing himself down to avoid running past the throw.

[ThunderDan]

Try this one:

He has to stop his retreat to the back line and doesn't. He also needs to push through or go around Kuechly to get the ball. Despite EVERY Patriots fan saying the ball would have landed right in Gronk's arms if not interfered with, its farther to the inside/left of Gronk that the still photo makes it seem.

http://nesncom.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/822650031.gif?w=598&h=337

I think that clip has made me go back to PI was the correct call.

The guy who intercepts the ball is on the other side of Gronk grabbing him in that clip. The LB than grabs him and shields his progress while the DB cuts in front and makes the INT.

If someone behind Gronk can make the INT at the beginning of contact Gronk should be given the benefit of the doubt also.

[pbmax]

I don't think the safety has any effect on Gronk's movement. He has as good, if not better, view of the ball and his body is in a better position to make a break on it.

Gronk has to stop his momentum and redirect to get back to the level of the safety shallower in the end zone.

[cheesner]

Raider fans have got to be loving this. Tom 'the Golden Boy' Brady didn't get the benefit of the doubt. I understand the Tuck Rule was to the letter of the law - but how come that was the first time in the hundreds of games I saw, that it became an issue? This still isn't as blatant as the Golden Tate pushing down our DB last year either. Fuck the pussy ass Pats fans who are used to getting all the calls and are shocked when one doesn't go their way.

[woodbuck27]

I think that clip has made me go back to PI was the correct call.

The guy who intercepts the ball is on the other side of Gronk grabbing him in that clip. The LB than grabs him and shields his progress while the DB cuts in front and makes the INT.

If someone behind Gronk can make the INT at the beginning of contact Gronk should be given the benefit of the doubt also.

That's how I saw it ThunderDan.

The backline judge clearly saw the hold and shove on Gronk before the ball reached the end zone. That judge does the obvious or throws the flag for an obvious penalty (a PI).

When Panthers MLB Luke Kuechly makes initial contact with Gronkowski; NO. 38 S Robert Lester of the Panthers is blocked out of the play for the eventual interception that he comes open to make .... as Gronk is cleared out of the way by Kuechly.

That momentum of Gronk's to the rear of the end zone was certainly assisted by the efforts to defend the pass by Kuechly. That effort cleared the way for Robert lester to make the interception that should not have ended that game because of pass interference.

His efforts in light of obvious film detail should have and 'in fact' did demonstrate a classic example of a pass interference.

RE:

" Maybe in his own mind, Gronkowaki knows he could never have made it back to the ball, and he knows he didn't try. Thus, while the defender was clearly shielding him, he knows it didn't actually affect anything that he tried to do. He knows he intended to go to the back of the endzone, and he knows he didn't even try to come back to the ball. The rest was just typically jostling that he deals with all the time.

Could that be it?? " Patler

I absolutely cannot read Gronkowski's mind in terms of his feelings and that penalty/non penalty call to end that game Patler.

I certainly can see the video and pause/play the action of that video recording and do my own analysis of that play and penalty call.

I can from that determine my conclusion and have decided to HOLD to that conclusion.

The PI should have stood after the flag was thrown. The NE Patriots awarded a penalty and one final shot at securing a win.

The end result.

This is just one more example of shoddy officiating on behalf of NFL Officials. Officials that are little more than zebra's that shed their skin at the end of their NFL day to work jobs similar to what all of us work/have worked.

Accountants and teachers and Walmart Greeters and plumbers and carpenters etc.

When will the self announced BEST league in all Pro Sports ever begin to act professionally in terms of utilizing full time paid officials? Not teachers and accountants etc. that incorporate into their busy lives some NFL officiating?

PACKERS !

[woodbuck27]

I don't think the safety has any effect on Gronk's movement. He has as good, if not better, view of the ball and his body is in a better position to make a break on it.

Gronk has to stop his momentum and redirect to get back to the level of the safety shallower in the end zone.

pbmax:

Look carefully at the post by ThunderDan and observe Luke Kuechly's contact and movement as that helps force Gronk away from the final destination of the ball in the end zone. If you study all the video now available on this play you'll see clearly that Kuechly's initial contact with Gronk certainly helps open up a lane for S Robert Lester and set up the interception.

Luke Kuechly is fast and powerful. He's one helluva MLB. Even a big man like Gronk is going to get moved by a defender such as Kuechly. In this case it's Gronks size and strength that actually prevented Kuechly from almost dropping Gronk to the turf.

Luke Kuechly is all over Gronk extremely close to the same horizontal plane as where the ball is interceted by Robert Lester. From that position Luke Kuechly certainly helps prevent Gronk from seting his feet and possibly making the catch.

It's all right there and easy to see that the PI should have stood up.

[pbmax]

pbmax:

Look carefully at the post by ThunderDan and observe Luke Kuechly's contact and movement as that helps force Gronk away from the final destination of the ball in the end zone. If you study all the video now available on this play you'll see clearly that Kuechly's initial contact with Gronk certainly helps open up a lane for S Robert Lester and set up the interception.

Luke Kuechly is fast and powerful. He's one helluva MLB. Even a big man like Gronk is going to get moved by a defender such as Kuechly. .

Nope, I do not see that and I will tell you why. Gronk takes his first step to stop his momentum AFTER the safety has passed in front of him. He sets/plants his feet in opposition to his direction to slow down and stay in the flight path of the ball. After this step, Kuechly comes into contact with Gronk and you can argue about who moves who where; though I can tell you that Gronk has a better base and Kuechly nearly falls down as a result.

But before Gronk commits his first act to slow down and alter his trajectory, the safety has already moved to get ahead of him and past him.

[woodbuck27]

Nope, I do not see that and I will tell you why. Gronk takes his first step to stop his momentum AFTER the safety has passed in front of him. He sets/plants his feet in opposition to his direction to slow down and stay in the flight path of the ball. After this step, Kuechly comes into contact with Gronk and you can argue about who moves who where; though I can tell you that Gronk has a better base and Kuechly nearly falls down as a result.

But before Gronk commits his first act to slow down and alter his trajectory, the safety has already moved to get ahead of him and past him.

Look again pbmax.

I see that it's close to what you see yet Gronkowski trys to plant his feet just prior to Panther S Robert Lester crossing his sight of line of the balls trajectory. Gronkowski cannot do that with Luke Kuechly all over him and moving Gronk away from the balls flight. As you observed Luke Kuechly almost falls down Gronks body and that's because Gronk is doing his very best to get set and back to the ball.

That Sir was a clear PI penalty and in a final summation.... just another blown call by NFL Officials.

You are set on seeing it your way and me in mine.

That should be the END of this discussion. A discussion that should be about far more than one more blown call by shoddy NFL Officials.

What should be done about it? That's the real topic of discussion we need here in the future pbmax.

GO PACK GO !

[Guiness]

Look again pbmax.

You do enjoy a good argument, don't you! Far better than simple refutation.

[woodbuck27]

You do enjoy a good argument, don't you! Far better than simple refutation.

I don't argue Guiness. I try my best to persuade. It's all very cool.

This is about a lot more that any possibly missed PI call and that standing up as a penalty that affects an outcome.

I've always tried to be 'the teacher'. The real deal in this discussion is 'the bigger picture'.

NFL officiating should be a lot better then what we often suffer as NFL fans.


simple refutation ... Hell No ! I'm too Irish.

[Guiness]

I don't argue when I'm correct Guiness. 8-)

I've always tried to be 'the teacher'.

teacher, eh? Mmmm, hot for teacher. Korean style

http://www.lovehkfilm.com/panasia/aj6293/hot_for_teacher.jpg

Ya, my mind wanders. It's like a Beavis and Butthead clip at times.

[MadScientist]

I see that it's close to what you see yet Gronkowski trys to plant his feet just prior to Panther S Robert Lester crossing his sight of line of the balls trajectory. Gronkowski cannot do that with Luke Kuechly all over him and moving Gronk away from the balls flight. As you observed Luke Kuechly almost falls down Gronks body and that's because Gronk is doing his very best to get set and back to the ball.
GO PACK GO !
I can see the attempt to set his feet after looking for it closely, although in real time, it just looks like his momentum takes him out of the play. I don't fault the refs for seeing it they way they did. Even with being able to set, Gronk would be behind the saftey and even without the safety and without the contact Gronk still has to stop and fully change his momentum and get back to the ball. Maybe possible, but not a sure thing. Taken as a whole, its a borderline call that you can justify either way.

The refs are very hesitant to make a last-second game-changing judgment call against the home team. It shouldn't be the case, but the refs are people not robots.

[woodbuck27]

I can see the attempt to set his feet after looking for it closely, although in real time, it just looks like his momentum takes him out of the play. I don't fault the refs for seeing it they way they did. Even with being able to set, Gronk would be behind the saftey and even without the safety and without the contact Gronk still has to stop and fully change his momentum and get back to the ball. Maybe possible, but not a sure thing. Taken as a whole, its a borderline call that you can justify either way.

The refs are very hesitant to make a last-second game-changing judgment call against the home team. It shouldn't be the case, but the refs are people not robots.

A nice position.

[woodbuck27]

teacher, eh? Mmmm, hot for teacher. Korean style

http://www.lovehkfilm.com/panasia/aj6293/hot_for_teacher.jpg

Ya, my mind wanders. It's like a Beavis and Butthead clip at times.

I revised my original 'that post'.

I'm such a softy.

Ohh dear...memo to self.... Did I step into something?

[pbmax]

Look again pbmax.

I see that it's close to what you see yet Gronkowski trys to plant his feet just prior to Panther S Robert Lester crossing his sight of line of the balls trajectory. Gronkowski cannot do that with Luke Kuechly all over him and moving Gronk away from the balls flight. As you observed Luke Kuechly almost falls down Gronks body and that's because Gronk is doing his very best to get set and back to the ball.



It may be that the safety has not yet crossed into his line of sight to the ball. But that is largely immaterial to my point.

The safety is unimpeded (legally or otherwise) in his path to the ball and is a good yard or perhaps more in FRONT of Gronkowski. Gronk cannot beat him to the ball even without Kuechly there. The safety breaks on the ball first AND is closer.

As for calling PI after that I can buy it IF uncatchable does not include the chance that the safety misplays the ball OR Gronk can somehow defeat Kuechly and interfere with the INT attempt.

[woodbuck27]

It may be that the safety has not yet crossed into his line of sight to the ball. But that is largely immaterial to my point.

The safety is unimpeded (legally or otherwise) in his path to the ball and is a good yard or perhaps more in FRONT of Gronkowski. Gronk cannot beat him to the ball even without Kuechly there. The safety breaks on the ball first AND is closer.

As for calling PI after that I can buy it IF uncatchable does not include the chance that the safety misplays the ball OR Gronk can somehow defeat Kuechly and interfere with the INT attempt.

Of all posters here why are you missing this pbmax?

I'll try again. My last try. As I stated in a prior post or posts there is a bigger story here RE: Officiating in the NFL and that being placed in question in regards to being more competent.

I just watched Charles Woodson on NFL.Com declare that the officials blew this call on MNF. That absolutely the penalty should have been held up and the Pat's given one more strike at a TD. Charles Woodson was sure of his claim. This coming from an AFC player or an Oakland Raider calling it for the Patriots.

pbmax... the thing you seem to be missing is when exactly Luke Kuechly makes initial contact with Gronkowski.

If you find the best video to determine that using a play- pause - play- pause analysing technique.... I believe you'll see my position pbmax. You'll see clearly that when that contact is made the ball is outside of the end zone, and clearly that the Safety, NO. 38 Robert Lester is blocked out of the play for any interception and that Robert Lester is located on the LHS and behind Gronk with Kuechly on the RHS of Gronk and in physical contact with Gronk.

You'll see clearly that contact with Gronk is made clearly in advance of that interception and not after that interception.

PACKERS !

[Bretsky]

Gronk is a sally; that is one of the things I take from this

[Joemailman]

Gronk is a sally; that is one of the things I take from this

Is that better or worse than being a sherry?

[Bossman641]

IMO, technically it should have been pass interference. Gronk making no effort to even appear to fight through Kuechly made it easier for the refs to pick up the flag though.

[Joemailman]

Not all contact, even with the ball in the air, constitutes pass interference. It wasn't until Gronk was near the back of the end zone that PI occurred. I can see where the ref would determine he had no chance to catch the ball. As Brady has admitted, he threw a bad pass. If he gets that pass deeper in the end zone where Gronk is, I doubt they pick up the flag.

[woodbuck27]

It may be that the safety has not yet crossed into his line of sight to the ball. But that is largely immaterial to my point.

The safety is unimpeded (legally or otherwise) in his path to the ball and is a good yard or perhaps more in FRONT of Gronkowski. Gronk cannot beat him to the ball even without Kuechly there. The safety breaks on the ball first AND is closer.

As for calling PI after that I can buy it IF uncatchable does not include the chance that the safety misplays the ball OR Gronk can somehow defeat Kuechly and interfere with the INT attempt.

I believe that we are here:

Agreeing to disagree.

Till the next :jig: ' Happy Trails to you ' ..... pbmax.

[pbmax]

Of all posters here why are you missing this pbmax?

I'll try again. My last try. As I stated in a prior post or posts there is a bigger story here RE: Officiating in the NFL and that being placed in question in regards to being more competent.

I just watched Charles Woodson on NFL.Com declare that the officials blew this call on MNF. That absolutely the penalty should have been held up and the Pat's given one more strike at a TD. Charles Woodson was sure of his claim. This coming from an AFC player or an Oakland Raider calling it for the Patriots.

pbmax... the thing you seem to be missing is when exactly Luke Kuechly makes initial contact with Gronkowski.

If you find the best video to determine that using a play- pause - play- pause analysing technique.... I believe you'll see my position pbmax. You'll see clearly that when that contact is made the ball is outside of the end zone, and clearly that the Safety, NO. 38 Robert Lester is blocked out of the play for any interception and that Robert Lester is located on the LHS and behind Gronk with Kuechly on the RHS of Gronk and in physical contact with Gronk.


Kuechly cannot stop Gronk from planting his feet. He can push him, bump him, check him. But he can't, from his position, stop Gronk from planting his feet. And Gronk doesn't plant his feet until the safety is already going by him. So Kuechly's actions don't prevent Gronk's change of direction UNTIL he is in an inferior position. Even with no defender, Gronk cannot stop on a dime and restart forward as fast as the safety can break on the ball.

As for Woodson, I can see his point. This type of play, an INT where there may be interference behind it, has happened before and been called PI. Here is the story of one such call AND a story of one such non-call:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/21/belichick-shows-team-2009-play-but-not-2010-play/