TED THOMPSON---WORTHY OF CRITICISM ???????????????????????????

[Bretsky]

I'm torn on this one; every coach, including MM, seems to be getting shredded in here.

Yet in general Ted Thompson seems devoid of criticism by nearly everybody

We have not won in five games since AROD was injured. Even the sometimes negative Nancy Bob McGinn thought Ted had built the Packers go go at least .500 without AROD.

But we are winless, and I'm pondering if it's time to begin breaking down, and critiquing, some of the drafts in full and he personneel moves, some good in signing out own and some perhaps bad in overpaying our own......

Just wondering..........is he still on his pass as the Genius GM or does he deserve some spat thrown at him like the coaching staff ???

[Bretsky]

I SHIT YOU NOT............I posted this thread before seeing this article.......however.......an artilce for JSONLINE that adds to the thread

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/blame-ted-thompson-packers-gms-failure-to-acquire-quality-backup-qb-is-biggest-reason-for-lost-sea-b-234332641.html

[Joemailman]

Thompson missed on the backup QB situation. He's said so himself. He's deserving of criticism now and then. Who isn't?

[Bretsky]

Thompson missed on the backup QB situation. He's said so himself. He's deserving of criticism now and then. Who isn't?

IN CONTRAST to draft and develop...draft and develop...draft and develop....many have noted other strategies do work as well...aka....when the Saints won the SB

Even Recently Consider

John Schneider....a TT disciple....takes over a 5-11 squad and is in the process of building a powerhouse...some of his moves

Schneider has traded for running back Marshawn Lynch, defensive end Chris Clemons and wideout Percy Harvin. Schneider signed notable free agents such as defensive end Cliff Avril and cornerback Brandon Browner. And hit HR's wit Rusell Wilson and Earl Thomas in the draft


JOHN DORSEY--Takes over a 2-14 Seattle Team....serves two decades in GB's scouting dept......Some of his moves......

Trade for a QB, dabbles in free agency, and hits in bit in draft year one. Only 23 players are on the roster that were on it last year. They are 9-3

The Chiefs are 9-3

[Bretsky]

Thompson missed on the backup QB situation. He's said so himself. He's deserving of criticism now and then. Who isn't?



This is too easy though..........there is plenty more to question.........

[woodbuck27]

All that article does is try to ensure that if there is one Packer fan alive that wasn't aware of the vulnerability we were in at backup QB for the past two seasons.

He/she is certainly aware upon reading it...now.

My question is:

When and how is Ted Thompson going to remove that problem? The Green Bay Packers deserve a real solution.

Matt Flynn doesn't look like the correct response given the state of his arm. Something seems wrong there.

Scott Tolzien might be a project.

The 2014 season will be upon us again in 'only 8 months time' before TC.

Will Ted Thompson procrastinate on this important issue that's squarely a burden he must remove from his lap?

GO PACK GO !

[woodbuck27]

This is too easy though..........there is plenty more to question.........

Are you strong enough for this objective examination?

[Harlan Huckleby]

It is so hard to predict. Most of the expert pundits thought Packers were set with Seneca Wallace. The dream backup for many sports journalists was Matt Flynn.

That article suggests TT should have spent some money on Matt Hasselback. I don't recall those suggestions last spring, I could be wrong.

Mark Tauscher, and so many other experts, said "Don't worry about the backup QB, it's not important, season is lost anyway if Rodgers goes down." I thought that was a dumb attitude, but it was prevalent.

What is the point of listening to opinions from people who were completely wrong themselves? This is hindsight.

[Tony Oday]

If AR goes down who as a backup would you want?

We need FA help on the online. TT has to see this now that what he has done almost got AR killed.

[Patler]

The real question to ask yourself is this:

Should the Packers have invested $3M+/year in a player who likely would not contribute in any meaningful way?

I don't know the answer to that question, and I don't even know how I would have felt about it last off-season. Looking at it now, with the prospect of AR missing possibly half the season, its easy to say "yes", especially when another win or two would make a huge difference in playoff prospects for Rodgers' return.

However, I think the current situation is quite unusual. More typically, you expect your starting QB to miss a game or two, or miss the season if he is injured. Your plan is that he plays every meaningful snap that there is, and quite often that happens. Your plan is that the backup QB makes no contribution at all. That can not be said for any other player on the roster, because others you at least expect to contribute on special teams.

The reality is that there are not enough good QBs around to even fill all of the starting positions. If you are faced with the prospect of your starter missing a lot of games, the best you can hope for is to manage the offense and win because of players other than your QB.

All of that being said, I think last off-season I would have thought spending $3M+ for a backup QB was an awful waste of cap dollars. I know I thought Seneca Wallace was a good signing. A guy who had a lot of experience in the NFL. He had shortcomings, of course, but they were not in his prep or decision making. I thought he would do fine when paired with what I expected to be a vastly improved running game and a very much improved defense. Unfortunately, only one of those has proven to be true, and even more unfortunately we never got to see how Wallace would have handled extensive playing time.

[woodbuck27]

It is so hard to predict. Most of the expert pundits thought Packers were set with Seneca Wallace. The dream backup for many sports journalists was Matt Flynn.

That article suggests TT should have spent some money on Matt Hasselback. I don't recall those suggestions last spring, I could be wrong.

Mark Tauscher, and so many other experts, said "Don't worry about the backup QB, it's not important, season is lost anyway if Rodgers goes down." I thought that was a dumb attitude, but it was prevalent.

What is the point of listening to opinions from people who were completely wrong themselves? This is hindsight.

"...Mark Tauscher, and so many other experts, said "Don't worry about the backup QB, it's not important, season is lost anyway if Rodgers goes down." ..." HH

My first response:

You've got to be kidding me. Dear Lord that's so fricken dumb.

Now:

Mark Tausher may very well be spot on correct. You have to explore a persons comments more deeply sometimes.

PACKERS !

[Patler]

I SHIT YOU NOT............I posted this thread before seeing this article.......however.......an artilce for JSONLINE that adds to the thread

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/blame-ted-thompson-packers-gms-failure-to-acquire-quality-backup-qb-is-biggest-reason-for-lost-sea-b-234332641.html

Of course, he is not really complaining that GB failed to have a backup, he really is complaining that they failed to have a 3rd string QB, and that when faced with the need to find a 4th QB mid-season, they didn't come up with one he approved of, and decided to go with the guy who should have been more familiar with the GB offense than any other FA available.

It's easy to complain about Flynn after the Detroit game. Why weren't Dunne and others pointing out the foolishness of signing him after the Viking game???

[woodbuck27]

If AR goes down who as a backup would you want?

We need FA help on the online. TT has to see this now that what he has done almost got AR killed.

Yes the chicken before the egg? ... argument.

It's so obvious now.

Obvious that the outstanding play of Aaron Rodgers. Described by many NFL experts as the best football player in the NFL.

Coveres up so much that isn't in Ted Thompson and his hire for HC Mike McCarthy and it all rolls downhill from there. These two men that are so adulated by some Packer fans are far from the NFL people that the Packer Organization and Packer fans deserve.

What will change?

Nothing ! :!:

For another two three seasons we'll remain on watch and simply have to remain patient and control our frustrations as they may arise.

We are stuck with Ted Thompson and Mike McCarthy.

[woodbuck27]

The real question to ask yourself is this:

Should the Packers have invested $3M+/year in a player who likely would not contribute in any meaningful way?

I don't know the answer to that question, and I don't even know how I would have felt about it last off-season. Looking at it now, with the prospect of AR missing possibly half the season, its easy to say "yes", especially when another win or two would make a huge difference in playoff prospects for Rodgers' return.

However, I think the current situation is quite unusual. More typically, you expect your starting QB to miss a game or two, or miss the season if he is injured. Your plan is that he plays every meaningful snap that there is, and quite often that happens. Your plan is that the backup QB makes no contribution at all. That can not be said for any other player on the roster, because others you at least expect to contribute on special teams.

The reality is that there are not enough good QBs around to even fill all of the starting positions. If you are faced with the prospect of your starter missing a lot of games, the best you can hope for is to manage the offense and win because of players other than your QB.

All of that being said, I think last off-season I would have thought spending $3M+ for a backup QB was an awful waste of cap dollars. I know I thought Seneca Wallace was a good signing. A guy who had a lot of experience in the NFL. He had shortcomings, of course, but they were not in his prep or decision making. I thought he would do fine when paired with what I expected to be a vastly improved running game and a very much improved defense. Unfortunately, only one of those has proven to be true, and even more unfortunately we never got to see how Wallace would have handled extensive playing time.

Wow could I ever rip into that post. I'll simply do this:

Patler Please ... Meditate on this question:

What must a backup QB be on a competitive NFL team?

I'll start here.

He 'must be capable of'... taking over and guiding his teams offense to WINS when called upon to play.

PACKERS !

[oldbutnotdeadyet]

Yes the chicken before the egg? ... argument.

It's so obvious now.

Obvious that the outstanding play of Aaron Rodgers. Described by many NFL experts as the best football player in the NFL.

Coveres up so much that isn't in Ted Thompson and his hire for HC Mike McCarthy and it all rolls downhill from there. These two men that are so adulated by some Packer fans are far from the NFL people that the Packer Organization and Packer fans deserve.

What will change?

Nothing ! :!:

For another two three seasons we'll remain on watch and simply have to remain patient and control our frustrations as they may arise.

We are stuck with Ted Thompson and Mike McCarthy.

God, I hope not. I'm too old to live thru the 80's again. Who has the power to control/fire/direct MM and TT? Maybe we should be writing letters to this guy/girl or sometin...

[Patler]

Patler your very smart:

Meditate on this question:

What must a backup QB be on a competitive NFL team and I'll start here.

He 'must be capable of'... taking over and guiding his teams offense to WINS when called upon to play.

PACKERS !

The unfortunate thing is we don't really know if the Packers backup QB was capable of that or not. We do know that their 3rd string QB has not been. Nor has their 4th option at QB.

I will pose another question for us all to consider:

Was Seneca Wallace really injured so extensively as to be out for the year, or was GB rash and impulsive in putting him on IR immediately?

[woodbuck27]

The unfortunate thing is we don't really know if the Packers backup QB was capable of that or not. We do know that their 3rd string QB has not been. Nor has their 4th option at QB.

I will pose another question for us all to consider:

Was Seneca Wallace really injured so extensively as to be out for the year, or was GB rash and impulsive in putting him on IR immediately?

Goodness you were prompt in responding and I edited the post you responded to.

I'll think about your question and respond accordingly.

[Bossman641]

He's certainly deserving of criticism but this whole "TT sucks, MM sucks" is simply an overreaction to an injury-destroyed season from a fanbase that has become entitled, to be honest. Next year we will be right in the hunt again. I fault TT for not bringing in a safety over the offseason but the guys that fans were clamoring for (Reed/Huff) have been disasters anyways.

[run pMc]

Was Seneca Wallace really injured so extensively as to be out for the year, or was GB rash and impulsive in putting him on IR immediately?

Purely a guess, butI think Wallace was probably going to be out for a week or two and would be playing again by now. I also think when Flynn cleared waivers and with Tolzien being the only healthy QB on the roster at that point they felt their hand was forced. You have to have 2 QBs on the gameday roster.
Of course, it's possible Wallace really wrecked the muscle, but IIRC he pulled it on basically a non-contact (for him) play...so I'm inclined to think the injury wasn't serious.

[run pMc]

He's certainly deserving of criticism but this whole "TT sucks, MM sucks" is simply an overreaction to an injury-destroyed season from a fanbase that has become entitled, to be honest. Next year we will be right in the hunt again. I fault TT for not bringing in a safety over the offseason but the guys that fans were clamoring for (Reed/Huff) have been disasters anyways.

+1

[oldbutnotdeadyet]

He's certainly deserving of criticism but this whole "TT sucks, MM sucks" is simply an overreaction to an injury-destroyed season from a fanbase that has become entitled, to be honest. Next year we will be right in the hunt again. I fault TT for not bringing in a safety over the offseason but the guys that fans were clamoring for (Reed/Huff) have been disasters anyways.

Not sure how injuries explain the continued piss poor tackling and complete lack of fire? These are things that can and should be coached, but sadly have not been. While injuries certainly contribute to our woes, I personally believe the injuries are just exposing the packers for what they are, mostly an average team with average coaches. I hope the board of directors recognize this and make changes accordingly.

[Patler]

Purely a guess, butI think Wallace was probably going to be out for a week or two and would be playing again by now. I also think when Flynn cleared waivers and with Tolzien being the only healthy QB on the roster at that point they felt their hand was forced. You have to have 2 QBs on the gameday roster.
Of course, it's possible Wallace really wrecked the muscle, but IIRC he pulled it on basically a non-contact (for him) play...so I'm inclined to think the injury wasn't serious.

I agree, they needed to add another QB, but they could have released or IR'd someone else to make room. Sending Wallace to IR might simply have been the easiest at the time. Now, they might wish they had him.

[MadScientist]

I agree, they needed to add another QB, but they could have released or IR'd someone else to make room. Sending Wallace to IR might simply have been the easiest at the time. Now, they might wish they had him.

Granted he didn't play much, but what makes you think that Wallace would do any better? Against the Bears it looked like his arm was at best half of Flynn's.

Backup QB isn't a position to waste money on. A 4-7 round pick that you can develop is the best bet, but the Packers had more glaring needs. They still have those glaring needs, in part because the last couple of drafts were not that great. That is on TT.

[Patler]

Not sure how injuries explain the continued piss poor tackling and complete lack of fire?

Very understandably could contribute to both. I have seen injuries beat down a teams will. With the Packers this year, it has been one standout player after another going down, week after week after week. It can beat you down. It's easy to say it is the coaches job to maintain their passion, but these are just very young adults, and sometime frustration takes over. Frustration, depression. despair even to a slight level diminishes the passion or fire, and defensively it can be manifested by poor tackling.

Sometimes we forget a lot of the players are just overgrown kids, subject to the same emotions we are.

[red]

I think TT deserves plenty of critisism

And not because of the backup qb mess. Like others have said, we're not talking about our backup not being good enough, he got hurt right away. We' re talking about how our third and fourth string qb isn't good enough. Your third stringer is always gonna be a practice squad guy, your fouth stringer is never gonna be on your roster at the beginning of the year

My problm with tt is the fact that he only uses the draft to build, and a lot of those picks are turning out to be misses

And the overpaying for our own average talent. People like to say its good to stay out of free agency because you always have to overpay. Well we have ovepaid for tramon, hawk, finley, brad jones, bush, and i'm sure theres a few more. These are free agent busts. If they had come from other teams we would be talking about how they we horrible signings

We ovespend on our own, why cant we ovespend on others?

We need a safety, and cant draft one, go sign a guy who can actually start in the nfl. We cant draft o line talent, go get some

Wait a week into free agency for all the crazy deal to get done, then start filling holes

[Patler]

Granted he didn't play much, but what makes you think that Wallace would do any better? Against the Bears it looked like his arm was at best half of Flynn's.

Backup QB isn't a position to waste money on. A 4-7 round pick that you can develop is the best bet, but the Packers had more glaring needs. They still have those glaring needs, in part because the last couple of drafts were not that great. That is on TT.

I have absolutely no idea whether or not Wallace would do any better or not. I'm not suggesting that he would. I also don't know if Flynn has an arm problem or not. Maybe his arm is the same that it always has been. It might just be a matter of giving them the plays they can succeed with, which can be difficult when you are playing from big point deficits.

However, Wallace is the one they spent the most time with, preparing him to be the backup in their 2013 scheme. He also provides a mobility aspect that Flynn does not. I was just thinking that in view of Tolzien's erraticness and Flynn's flame out in Detroit, they might wish they had Wallace back.

[woodbuck27]

We can examine the Packers failure now focusing on different reasons for the failure:

a) A loss of Aaron Rodgers and the overwhelming impact of that loss given his lofty status and real meaning to the team.

b) With Rodgers out the back up QB position.

c) Too much adversity in the form of all the accumulating injuries to players and not simply that and key players.

d) Depth on the roster at all positions. The observable quality of that depth.

e) The status of our 'D' before and after the loss of Aaron Rodgers. Breaking that analysis down in terms of the rushing and passing defense. Results for the 'D' based in measurement (stat's).

f) The status of the 'O' before and after the loss of Aaron Rodgers. (stat's)

g) The quality of our OL in terms related to roster availability and flexibility. The number of OL spots made available on the roster at the close of training camp.

h) The impact of the last two drafts on the quality of our roster.

I) The impact on the team based in FA activity.

etc. etc....etc.

[woodbuck27]

I think TT deserves plenty of critisism

And not because of the backup qb mess. Like others have said, we're not talking about our backup not being good enough, he got hurt right away. We' re talking about how our third and fourth string qb isn't good enough. Your third stringer is always gonna be a practice squad guy, your fouth stringer is never gonna be on your roster at the beginning of the year

My problm with tt is the fact that he only uses the draft to build, and a lot of those picks are turning out to be misses

And the overpaying for our own average talent. People like to say its good to stay out of free agency because you always have to overpay. Well we have ovepaid for tramon, hawk, finley, brad jones, bush, and i'm sure theres a few more. These are free agent busts. If they had come from other teams we would be talking about how they we horrible signings

We ovespend on our own, why cant we ovespend on others?

We need a safety, and cant draft one, go sign a guy who can actually start in the nfl. We cant draft o line talent, go get some

Wait a week into free agency for all the crazy deal to get done, then start filling holes

Ted Thompson seems to me to be a stubborn man.

As long as it acts that way the Green Bay Packers will be at a disadvantage.

In my life I've learned that what isn't working simply needs to be fixed or renewed.

I believe that Ted Thompson needs to change somehow.

I believe that TT needs a brand new blueprint for that change.

My concern as a Packer fan...TT's simply never going to get there.

Back to the meaning of the word... stubborn:

adjective: stubborn

Having or showing dogged determination not to change one's attitude or position on something, especially in spite of good reasons to do so.

[bobblehead]

I'm torn on this one; every coach, including MM, seems to be getting shredded in here.

Yet in general Ted Thompson seems devoid of criticism by nearly everybody

We have not won in five games since AROD was injured. Even the sometimes negative Nancy Bob McGinn thought Ted had built the Packers go go at least .500 without AROD.

But we are winless, and I'm pondering if it's time to begin breaking down, and critiquing, some of the drafts in full and he personneel moves, some good in signing out own and some perhaps bad in overpaying our own......

Just wondering..........is he still on his pass as the Genius GM or does he deserve some spat thrown at him like the coaching staff ???

The short answer is this. He is certainly not BEYOND criticism. I don't think he is WORTHY of it though. MM and TT dropped the ball regarding a backup. The strategy they used has been in GB since Wolf/Holmgren. Problem is that the 2 guys they were developing didn't develop. They deserve criticism for that. They also deserve a bit of credit for recognizing it and making the move for seneca Wallace when they did. We will never know for sure if that move would have been enough or not.

Again, we must look at the body of work. I thought cutting Bishop was crazy...he was healthy, he played ok in Minnesota early. TT proved to be right though, and the hammy left problems that lead to another injury (maybe, or it was a fluke). Giving Hawk that big contract was a mistake, it was remedied. I can't hammer TT for the OL though, not unless Bulaga and Sherrod line up together and suck.

What I do not accept from people is criticism such as "TT fucking blows. He is an idiot. I could GM better than that asshole. He hasn't done anything other than draft Arod."

[bobblehead]

Purely a guess, butI think Wallace was probably going to be out for a week or two and would be playing again by now. I also think when Flynn cleared waivers and with Tolzien being the only healthy QB on the roster at that point they felt their hand was forced. You have to have 2 QBs on the gameday roster.
Of course, it's possible Wallace really wrecked the muscle, but IIRC he pulled it on basically a non-contact (for him) play...so I'm inclined to think the injury wasn't serious.

Most blown achilles happen non contact. It may have been bad, but I agree with your assessment.

[bobblehead]

Not sure how injuries explain the continued piss poor tackling and complete lack of fire? These are things that can and should be coached, but sadly have not been. While injuries certainly contribute to our woes, I personally believe the injuries are just exposing the packers for what they are, mostly an average team with average coaches. I hope the board of directors recognize this and make changes accordingly.

This is the criticism of TT, tackling would fall on MM and Capers.

[woodbuck27]

The short answer is this. He is certainly not BEYOND criticism. I don't think he is WORTHY of it though. MM and TT dropped the ball regarding a backup. The strategy they used has been in GB since Wolf/Holmgren. Problem is that the 2 guys they were developing didn't develop. They deserve criticism for that. They also deserve a bit of credit for recognizing it and making the move for seneca Wallace when they did. We will never know for sure if that move would have been enough or not.

Again, we must look at the body of work. I thought cutting Bishop was crazy...he was healthy, he played ok in Minnesota early. TT proved to be right though, and the hammy left problems that lead to another injury (maybe, or it was a fluke). Giving Hawk that big contract was a mistake, it was remedied. I can't hammer TT for the OL though, not unless Bulaga and Sherrod line up together and suck.

What I do not accept from people is criticism such as "TT fucking blows. He is an idiot. I could GM better than that asshole. He hasn't done anything other than draft Arod."

I agree as Packer fans lets try to contain ourselves and look at him and MM etc. with some sense of respect...some class/decency/manners.

I often go to humor when I feel somehow frustrated. Is humor OK?

I'm also Canadian and a part of our culture or where I come from in Canada is to use satire a lot.

See humor above.

[bobblehead]

I think TT deserves plenty of critisism

And the overpaying for our own average talent. People like to say its good to stay out of free agency because you always have to overpay. Well we have ovepaid for tramon, hawk, finley, brad jones, bush, and i'm sure theres a few more.


I disagree we overpaid for Tramon, Bush, and Finley. Tramon got hurt, but he was HUGE in us winning the superbowl. He earned that contract, he just hasn't played up to it. He has returned to being solid, but is overpaid, but the injury is the reason. Bush isn't paid all that much. He is very good on ST but I do agree, he should NEVER see the field otherwise. Finley was given a 2 year deal. It was fair, we could have cut him at anytime with minimal hit. It was a "prove you deserve a big deal with guaranteed money" deal. He didn't, and we weren't hurt by it. Hawk was restructured, but it was a bad deal. Jones got starter money, he is a nickel player. The gripe is where I have had it for a long time. We suck at LB after clay. Perry and project neal look promising, but we will see.

[mmmdk]

Packers were the youngest team for years and yet Packers have been declining since the SB win. That's just terrible management and apparently a lack of abilty to judge talent by coaches as well. I guess that ultimate success can make one blind and hence feel invincible on draft day. TT and coaches drank a magic posion and the effect wore of pretty quickly.

I still think TT is our GM and a fairly good one but he also hired our teaching coaches and has let our DL, our front seven as a Whole plus OL decline faster than you can say 'Brett Favre one man show'!

It's now the Aaron Rodgers one man show and Packers are looking stupid these days. Big offseason coming and all is NOT lost.

Lastly, it's ok in my book to be clutching at straws, during the remaining season, and hold up hope for some miracle for the Packers to turn Things around. Just don't be too dissapointed when reality checks in.

[bobblehead]

Ted Thompson seems to me to be a stubborn man.

As long as it acts that way the Green Bay Packers will be at a disadvantage.

In my life I've learned that what isn't working simply needs to be fixed or renewed.

I believe that Ted Thompson needs to change somehow.

I believe that TT needs a brand new blueprint for that change.

My concern as a Packer fan...TT's simply never going to get there.

Back to the meaning of the word... stubborn:

adjective: stubborn

Having or showing dogged determination not to change one's attitude or position on something, especially in spite of good reasons to do so.

Now post the definition of convictions. TT simply knows his is the best way to build a winner and isn't subject to HUGE emotional swings that fans are. In many ways he reminds me of myself which is probably why I largely defend him.

Example. During the housing boom I sold my house and condo and rented. Everyone around me told me I was crazy. I would NEVER be able to afford another house at the rate they were going up. I was an idiot. I sold 2 paid for properties that would be going up ANOTHER 100% in the next 2 years. God was I stupid.

Granted, this is a more extreme example than fans calling TT an idiot, but the point is, I knew I was right. I didn't engage in pointless arguments or bother defending my position to people who were being irrational (I save that for packerrats fans that are being irrational). TT knows how to build a winner. He is not immune to the injury bug or occasional mistakes. He also doesn't waste his time engaging discussions with overreacting media/fans.

[bobblehead]

I agree as Packer fans lets try to contain ourselves and look at him and MM etc. with some sense of respect...some class/decency/manners.

I often go to humor when I feel somehow frustrated. Is humor OK?

I'm also Canadian and a part of our culture or where I come from in Canada is to use satire a lot.

See humor above.

I think so. In fact anything is ok. You can act however you want, but you might have to pay a price of others ridiculing you, or being banned if you are like rbaloha or tank.

[red]

Purely a guess, butI think Wallace was probably going to be out for a week or two and would be playing again by now. I also think when Flynn cleared waivers and with Tolzien being the only healthy QB on the roster at that point they felt their hand was forced. You have to have 2 QBs on the gameday roster.
Of course, it's possible Wallace really wrecked the muscle, but IIRC he pulled it on basically a non-contact (for him) play...so I'm inclined to think the injury wasn't serious.

I just saw the other day that wallace was going to have surgery for the injury

So it looks like it was a pretty serious injury that was going to keep him out for awhile. Not the little injury that most of us thought would just keep him out a week but our hand was forced and we had to IR him

Edit. Found the link. Hes having surgery on the groin this week or next and he'll be down for 4weeks

http://www.tmz.com/2013/11/29/seneca-wallace-groin-surgery-green-bay-packers-injury/

[red]

I disagree we overpaid for Tramon, Bush, and Finley. Tramon got hurt, but he was HUGE in us winning the superbowl. He earned that contract, he just hasn't played up to it. He has returned to being solid, but is overpaid, but the injury is the reason. Bush isn't paid all that much. He is very good on ST but I do agree, he should NEVER see the field otherwise. Finley was given a 2 year deal. It was fair, we could have cut him at anytime with minimal hit. It was a "prove you deserve a big deal with guaranteed money" deal. He didn't, and we weren't hurt by it. Hawk was restructured, but it was a bad deal. Jones got starter money, he is a nickel player. The gripe is where I have had it for a long time. We suck at LB after clay. Perry and project neal look promising, but we will see.

Tramon got his money and has been nothing since then, he got paid and has turned to shit, althoug he likes to blame this mystery injury for him being shitty for 3 or 4 years now. If we had signed tramon from another team and he had gotten hurt rigt away, we would be sittinghere yelling about him being a flop. Him and namdi, not much difference. But he' s one of our own, so its ok

Bush is making almost 2 million bucks to be a gunner on the worst special teams in the nfl

Finley was te highest paid TE in the nfl this year, at no point in his career has he ever been the best TE in the nfl. Again if we had signed him from another team we would be screaming about the free agent bust

Hawk is still making over 5 million this year, will be over 6 next year. Restructured or not, he is greatly overpaid

If any of these guys had been signed from other teams, people on here would be blasting TT for wasting money on free agents

[woodbuck27]

Now post the definition of convictions. TT simply knows his is the best way to build a winner and isn't subject to HUGE emotional swings that fans are. In many ways he reminds me of myself which is probably why I largely defend him.

Example. During the housing boom I sold my house and condo and rented. Everyone around me told me I was crazy. I would NEVER be able to afford another house at the rate they were going up. I was an idiot. I sold 2 paid for properties that would be going up ANOTHER 100% in the next 2 years. God was I stupid.

Granted, this is a more extreme example than fans calling TT an idiot, but the point is, I knew I was right. I didn't engage in pointless arguments or bother defending my position to people who were being irrational (I save that for packerrats fans that are being irrational). TT knows how to build a winner. He is not immune to the injury bug or occasional mistakes. He also doesn't waste his time engaging discussions with overreacting media/fans.

This discussion 'of course' omits any discourse with Ted Thompson.

This discussion will not receive input from anything official and the Green Bay Packers.

This discussion is one among Packer fan (fans) exclusively.

It's fair to observe that some (fans) will overreact. That is A-OK as their fans.

[red]

Now post the definition of convictions. TT simply knows his is the best way to build a winner and isn't subject to HUGE emotional swings that fans are.

Fans also have a whole hell of a lot more invested in the teams then coaches, gms, or players. They come and go and move on to the next team

We stay

[woodbuck27]

Now post the definition of convictions. TT simply knows his is the best way to build a winner and isn't subject to HUGE emotional swings that fans are. In many ways he reminds me of myself which is probably why I largely defend him.

Example. During the housing boom I sold my house and condo and rented. Everyone around me told me I was crazy. I would NEVER be able to afford another house at the rate they were going up. I was an idiot. I sold 2 paid for properties that would be going up ANOTHER 100% in the next 2 years. God was I stupid.

Granted, this is a more extreme example than fans calling TT an idiot, but the point is, I knew I was right. I didn't engage in pointless arguments or bother defending my position to people who were being irrational (I save that for packerrats fans that are being irrational). TT knows how to build a winner. He is not immune to the injury bug or occasional mistakes. He also doesn't waste his time engaging discussions with overreacting media/fans.

" Now post the definition of convictions. " bobblehead

Sure:

convictions 'defined':

The plural of the word 'conviction' ...

conviction

1. a formal declaration that someone is guilty of a criminal offense, made by the verdict of a jury or the decision of a judge in a court of law.

ie "she had a previous conviction for a similar offense"

synonyms: declaration of guilt, sentence, judgment More ..... ie "his conviction for murder"

antonyms: acquittal

2a. a firmly held belief or opinion.

ie "his conviction that the death was no accident"

synonyms: belief, opinion, view, thought, persuasion, idea, position, stance, article of faith

I'm convinced that this describes you bobblehead, in terms of the topic and focus of this discussion:

Even though we may be on separate sides of a fence... which remains to be seen. This usage of the word certainly might be used to describe me amongst other adjectives. :???:

2b. the quality of showing that one is firmly convinced of what one believes or says.

ie .... "his voice lacked conviction"

synonyms: certainty, certitude, assurance, confidence, sureness, no shadow of a doubt

ie .... "she spoke with conviction"

antonym: uncertainty

[woodbuck27]

I think so. In fact anything is ok. You can act however you want, but you might have to pay a price of others ridiculing you, or being banned if you are like rbaloha or tank.

Back to you too bobblehead on that note.

" if you are like rbaloha or tank" bobblehead

What in Jaysus Blue Thunder are you getting at above?

Don't even imagine the name woodbuck27 in any association with rbaloha and/or Tank and the manner and /or ways that those former members behaved. In that sense don't use my name ...woodbuck27 in the same sentence and sense of what they offered Packerrats.

Are you trying to establish some point above RE: me?

What are you even suggesting? Please respond to this question in regards specifically to me.

Before you go there think about this:

I've been a member here since what the Spring of 2005 and have made over 17 K posts and have survived any banning.

I conduct myself and have well within the boundaries acceptable for some respect and not an outright banning.

As far as any ridicule. I know how to deal with ignorance. I know how to deal with name calling and misdirection in terms of defensive rhetoric.

[pbmax]

This is the criticism of TT, tackling would fall on MM and Capers.

That is a fantastic question though, isn't it?

Thompson loves born and bred football players (see his AJ Hawk comments) but he also more typically engages in projection about what kind of athlete might eventually make a good NFL player (Finley, a lot of O lineman, Jeremy Thompson, Nick Collins, Blackmon, Matthews). This is especially true later in the draft and the best example might be Sam Shields.

Like Wolf he is looking for physical advantage. Does such an approach hurt the basic football ability of the team? Under today's conditions, can a coaching staff teach the unfamiliar how to tackle well?

[pbmax]

Tramon got his money and has been nothing since then, he got paid and has turned to shit, althoug he likes to blame this mystery injury for him being shitty for 3 or 4 years now. If we had signed tramon from another team and he had gotten hurt rigt away, we would be sittinghere yelling about him being a flop. Him and namdi, not much difference. But he' s one of our own, so its ok

Bush is making almost 2 million bucks to be a gunner on the worst special teams in the nfl

Finley was te highest paid TE in the nfl this year, at no point in his career has he ever been the best TE in the nfl. Again if we had signed him from another team we would be screaming about the free agent bust

Hawk is still making over 5 million this year, will be over 6 next year. Restructured or not, he is greatly overpaid

If any of these guys had been signed from other teams, people on here would be blasting TT for wasting money on free agents

I will say this about Tramon, I think everyone overvalued him*.

They year after his deal, prior to the injury, he was struggling in a big way.


* Myself included. Football Outsiders never ranked him as elite save for his big year and his nickname prior to that was Admiral Armbar for the penalties he accrued for sticking out his arm to stay with receivers. He probably was not as bad as the worst criticism, but not as good as he looked for 2010.

[Bossman641]

I can't hammer TT for the OL though, not unless Bulaga and Sherrod line up together and suck.

Spot on. If we were looking at Bulaga-Sitton-EDS-Lang-Barclay with Bakh/Sherrod as the top OT backup and Tretter as the top interior we'd be in a completely different position than where we are now.

The thing that's really killed the team is not just injuries, but injuries to both sides of the ball. People around here like to bitch about the Bear injuries but they've only had injuries to one side of the ball. They've lined up every offensive starter for every game, except Cutler, and McCown has been the same if not an upgrade there.

I'm learning more and more the NFL is simply a matter of who has the healthiest team. The Chiefs have had pretty good injury luck this year. Of course, 2 weeks ago they lose Hali and Houston. Guess who they are forced to trot out - Zombo and Dezman Moses.

[Patler]

One thing we have to acknowledge is that, extremely more so than with previous GMs, we have no idea what TT was thinking, what he wanted to do, what he tried to do, or what offers he made; because he doesn't tell us. Wolf seemed to relish providing great detail to the media; however, it wasn't always accurate. Sherman, too, told us a lot. Remember that he told us before the draft and after it, that the guy he really wanted in 2004 was JP Losman (I am ever so grateful to Buffalo for snatching him away!) Both often told of trades that were considered on draft day, and willingly evaluated players both before and after the draft.

TT tells us nothing, but we shouldn't make the mistake of thinking that means he is doing nothing. I made the mistake of thinking that they were holding off discussions with Raji, because there had been no inkling of any negotiations. Only recently we learned that they have had a very sizable offer on the table for months, and it is Raji who has not countered it. There was a similar situation with Jennings, I suspect Jenkins, and I wouldn't be surprised to learn Wells, too.

Certainly TT is open to criticism, but if we do so we should be willing to admit that we don't know what he has tried to do, or why things might not have worked. As such, we can criticize the result, but we really know nothing about the effort.

[Patler]

I will say this about Tramon, I think everyone overvalued him*.

They year after his deal, prior to the injury, he was struggling in a big way.

I thought his injury was in the first game of the year he signed the contract?

[Cheesehead Craig]

Overall I think TT has done a very good job with the club. He's drafted players for positions of need and they keep getting hurt. Is that really on him?

Of course he's going to make mistakes on drafting players, all GMs do. I like that he's not the kind of guy who will completely change his thinking and process on a whim. Of course that has it's drawbacks as well. Such as not seeming to be able to adjust and such.

I think that this offseason though, TT needs to have a big sit-down with MM about his coaching staff. That's where I think he needs to show some serious leadership. We all know that MM is a loyal guy for his coaches, but it's been shown that there's issues with Capers, Slocum, Perry, Whitt, and Campen. The training staff as well needs to be looked at given how bizarre a lot of injuries are on this team and how the info on these is confused, contradictory, and downright wrong too often (see Cobb). Something just doesn't pass the smell test with that group.

That's where I feel TT has to make some improvements and changes and direct MM to cut some of the dead wood. If he does not, then I feel he deserves a fair amount of criticism.

[denverYooper]

Old Packers hand Demovsky trots out the idea that 2011 and 2012 look bad for TT:

http://espn.go.com/blog/green-bay-packers/post/_/id/4405/mcmillians-release-an-indictment-on-drafts

2011:
T Derek Sherrod
WR Randall Cobb
RB Alex Green
CB Davon House
TE D.J. Williams
G Caleb Schlauderaff
LB D.J. Smith
LB Ricky Elmore
TE Ryan Taylor
DE Lawrence Guy

2012:
LB Nick Perry
DE Jerel Worthy
CB Casey Hayward
DT Mike Daniels
S Jerron McMillian
LB Terrell Manning
T Andrew Datko
QB B.J. Coleman

2011 looks like the real uff-da! for Thompson. 2012 might be fine if Perry, Hayward, and Daniels can stay healthy.

[Patler]

Old Packers hand Demovsky trots out the idea that 2011 and 2012 look bad for TT:

http://espn.go.com/blog/green-bay-packers/post/_/id/4405/mcmillians-release-an-indictment-on-drafts

2011:
T Derek Sherrod
WR Randall Cobb
RB Alex Green
CB Davon House
TE D.J. Williams
G Caleb Schlauderaff
LB D.J. Smith
LB Ricky Elmore
TE Ryan Taylor
DE Lawrence Guy

2012:
LB Nick Perry
DE Jerel Worthy
CB Casey Hayward
DT Mike Daniels
S Jerron McMillian
LB Terrell Manning
T Andrew Datko
QB B.J. Coleman

2011 looks like the real uff-da! for Thompson. 2012 might be fine if Perry, Hayward, and Daniels can stay healthy.

Yet, most of those 2011 guys are still kicking around the NFL, so he couldn't have been too far off, especially when he was picking dead last in each round. Had Sherrod not been injured, people might look at 2011 completely differently.

[woodbuck27]

Overall I think TT has done a very good job with the club. He's drafted players for positions of need and they keep getting hurt. Is that really on him?

Of course he's going to make mistakes on drafting players, all GMs do. I like that he's not the kind of guy who will completely change his thinking and process on a whim. Of course that has it's drawbacks as well. Such as not seeming to be able to adjust and such.

I think that this offseason though, TT needs to have a big sit-down with MM about his coaching staff. That's where I think he needs to show some serious leadership. We all know that MM is a loyal guy for his coaches, but it's been shown that there's issues with Capers, Slocum, Perry, Whitt, and Campen. The training staff as well needs to be looked at given how bizarre a lot of injuries are on this team and how the info on these is confused, contradictory, and downright wrong too often (see Cobb). Something just doesn't pass the smell test with that group.

That's where I feel TT has to make some improvements and changes and direct MM to cut some of the dead wood. If he does not, then I feel he deserves a fair amount of criticism.

" I think that this offseason though, TT needs to have a big sit-down with MM about his coaching staff. " Cheesehead Craig

You think that TT should address this issue this 'off season' !?

Why so late?

TT should have been addressing this issue to MM since before this season began.

He certainly should have been addressing that to MM throughout this season.

PACKERS !

[pbmax]

I thought his injury was in the first game of the year he signed the contract?

Did he play with it for a while? Because I remember him playing like death warmed over during the early part of the season, right out of the gate.

[pbmax]

Yet, most of those 2011 guys are still kicking around the NFL, so he couldn't have been too far off, especially when he was picking dead last in each round. Had Sherrod not been injured, people might look at 2011 completely differently.

I made a thread for that article. His numbers include not counting Hayward or Cobb on the team. Gives a slightly inaccurate tint to those drafts to ignore them.

[pbmax]

Did he play with it for a while? Because I remember him playing like death warmed over during the early part of the season, right out of the gate.

Maybe I am confusing the injury with its impact on him the following year. He did get injured in Game #1, 2011 running into Collins.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/28/tramon-williams-insists-shoulder-injury-isnt-career-threatening/

[Cheesehead Craig]

" I think that this offseason though, TT needs to have a big sit-down with MM about his coaching staff. " Cheesehead Craig

You think that TT should address this issue this 'off season' !?

Why so late?

TT should have been addressing this issue to MM since before this season began.

He certainly should have been addressing that to MM throughout this season.

PACKERS !

I can only think of what TT can do going forward. Perhaps there were discussions on coaches on the "hot seat" on the staff prior to the season and likely there has been during the season. I'm sure TT has been doing evals during the season on these guys. But other than when TT made MM get rid of Bates, he's let MM handle the coaches from what I've understood. So that's why I'm hoping that TT does get more involved and that we hear that it's him that's pushing for change. Canning coaches during a season isn't all that common, unless it's a HC, and even that is pretty rare. Usually that's done in the offseason, hence my reference to that timeframe.

[Patler]

Did he play with it for a while? Because I remember him playing like death warmed over during the early part of the season, right out of the gate.

Ya, he did play with it. He sat out game #2 and played the rest of the year one-armed.

[Patler]

Maybe I am confusing the injury with its impact on him the following year. He did get injured in Game #1, 2011 running into Collins.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/28/tramon-williams-insists-shoulder-injury-isnt-career-threatening/

Probably. We all expected the old Tramon the following season, but in TC it came out that he still did not have full strength in it, and he said there was a linger numbness that might always be there. It was then that I noticed more hesitancy in the way he played. He had become somewhat timid as a tackler, which I think might be from the long effect of the injury. It looked as if he started to protect himself.

[Bossman641]

If I'm looking at positions to realistically assign TT blame on I'd rank them as follows.

1. Safety - didn't really love any of the FA safeties and Reid went too early to realistically target him in the draft. Hindsight 20/20 - a safety in the fourth would have been better than Tretter or Franklin but that's without me knowing who was available and how they've performed this year.
2. Backup QB - Harrell and Coleman should have been abandoned earlier
3. ILB

The DL is a real weakness right now but that projected as, and was, a strength of the team for the first 6-7 weeks. I really don't know what is going on there - if it's just Pickett getting injured and Raji freelancing a bit or what.

[Guiness]

Granted he didn't play much, but what makes you think that Wallace would do any better? Against the Bears it looked like his arm was at best half of Flynn's.

Backup QB isn't a position to waste money on. A 4-7 round pick that you can develop is the best bet, but the Packers had more glaring needs. They still have those glaring needs, in part because the last couple of drafts were not that great. That is on TT.

This. Seneca did not play well when he was on the field, and I suspect the Packers felt the same way.

[Patler]

This. Seneca did not play well when he was on the field, and I suspect the Packers felt the same way.

He didn't play well in the Bear game replacing Rodgers, but we also learned that he had had very little time with the first string, the same as for Tolzien the next week. But, Wallace looked decent in the opening drive when he was prepped and started the game the following week.

But, no matter. As others have now noted, apparently the injury was serious, and he is now having surgery.

[Guiness]

I'm learning more and more the NFL is simply a matter of who has the healthiest team. The Chiefs have had pretty good injury luck this year. Of course, 2 weeks ago they lose Hali and Houston. Guess who they are forced to trot out - Zombo and Dezman Moses.

And KC lost both of those games, their vaunted defense unable to stop the hemorrhaging - they allowed 41 and 35 points. The week before those injuries they held Denver to 27, their lowest total of the season.

[woodbuck27]

I can only think of what TT can do going forward. Perhaps there were discussions on coaches on the "hot seat" on the staff prior to the season and likely there has been during the season. I'm sure TT has been doing evals during the season on these guys. But other than when TT made MM get rid of Bates, he's let MM handle the coaches from what I've understood. So that's why I'm hoping that TT does get more involved and that we hear that it's him that's pushing for change. Canning coaches during a season isn't all that common, unless it's a HC, and even that is pretty rare. Usually that's done in the offseason, hence my reference to that timeframe.

In now understand your context in terms TT reaching MM and TIME.

I will emphasize this as my position here:

As the Packer GM I believe it was incumbent on TT to ensure that conversation has been continually going on.

I mean that short of harping at MM.

[woodbuck27]

Did he play with it for a while? Because I remember him playing like death warmed over during the early part of the season, right out of the gate.

pbmax was that the 2011 season (early)? When did you notice his play had deteriorated?


http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/111071544.html

Packers sign Tramon Williams to contract extension ( 2011-14) and .... put Chillar and Havner on IR

By Bob McGinn of the Journal Sentinel

Nov. 30, 2010

" The official average of the deal is $8.2685 million. He can realize another $1 million from 2011-14 in the form of workout bonuses. "

Comment woodbuck27:

That was a giant leap for TW's life.

Tramon Williams, (NOW 30 Yrs Old) , entered NFL as a FA with Houston - 2006.

Cut by the Texans, he joined the Packers’ PS in Nov. 2006. As a Green Bay Packer he's struck it rich.

I hate it that the team is stuck with this guy for another season the way he acts. He often acts like a simple punk. He gets out of control and MM pat's him on the ass for it.

[pbmax]

I thought it was 2011 prior to injury. But given that he was injured in the first game, it doesn't jibe.

I recall a series of games at the beginning of the season where he play was poor despite still being asked to cover the #1 receivers. The only logical explanation is that I remember his struggles the following season while he was still battling his recovery from the injury.

[woodbuck27]

I thought it was 2011 prior to injury. But given that he was injured in the first game, it doesn't jibe.

I recall a series of games at the beginning of the season where he play was poor despite still being asked to cover the #1 receivers. The only logical explanation is that I remember his struggles the following season while he was still battling his recovery from the injury.


He's forgotten how to play the drums. **


** Reference Greg Jennings story - playing the drums in church and

(not related) his lower rectus abdominis muscle injury diagnosis (not a groin pull related/not related) :whist:

RE: Article in a prior post to me RE: Greg Jennings Injury 2012 Season.

[KYPack]

I can only think of what TT can do going forward. Perhaps there were discussions on coaches on the "hot seat" on the staff prior to the season and likely there has been during the season. I'm sure TT has been doing evals during the season on these guys. But other than when TT made MM get rid of Bates, he's let MM handle the coaches from what I've understood. So that's why I'm hoping that TT does get more involved and that we hear that it's him that's pushing for change. Canning coaches during a season isn't all that common, unless it's a HC, and even that is pretty rare. Usually that's done in the offseason, hence my reference to that timeframe.

Bates left GB when he didn't get the HC job. Sanders was MM's DC.

[bobblehead]

Packers were the youngest team for years and yet Packers have been declining since the SB win. That's just terrible management and apparently a lack of abilty to judge talent by coaches as well. I guess that ultimate success can make one blind and hence feel invincible on draft day. TT and coaches drank a magic posion and the effect wore of pretty quickly.

I still think TT is our GM and a fairly good one but he also hired our teaching coaches and has let our DL, our front seven as a Whole plus OL decline faster than you can say 'Brett Favre one man show'!

It's now the Aaron Rodgers one man show and Packers are looking stupid these days. Big offseason coming and all is NOT lost.

Lastly, it's ok in my book to be clutching at straws, during the remaining season, and hold up hope for some miracle for the Packers to turn Things around. Just don't be too dissapointed when reality checks in.

We were a wildcard team the year we won the SB, we went 15-1 the next year, and won the division the next. Are we declining? Other than the fact that the only place to go is down after you win the SB.

[bobblehead]

Fans also have a whole hell of a lot more invested in the teams then coaches, gms, or players. They come and go and move on to the next team

We stay

But our future employment isn't dependent on the teams success. I agree we have plenty invested, but I think TT and MM want to win every bit as bad as you and I want them to.

[bobblehead]

Back to you too bobblehead on that note.

" if you are like rbaloha or tank" bobblehead

What in Jaysus Blue Thunder are you getting at above?

Don't even imagine the name woodbuck27 in any association with rbaloha and/or Tank and the manner and /or ways that those former members behaved. In that sense don't use my name ...woodbuck27 in the same sentence and sense of what they offered Packerrats.

Are you trying to establish some point above RE: me?

What are you even suggesting? Please respond to this question in regards specifically to me.

Before you go there think about this:

I've been a member here since what the Spring of 2005 and have made over 17 K posts and have survived any banning.

I conduct myself and have well within the boundaries acceptable for some respect and not an outright banning.

As far as any ridicule. I know how to deal with ignorance. I know how to deal with name calling and misdirection in terms of defensive rhetoric.

No that wasn't specific to you. I don't ever think you are really out of line or overboard and thus I can't recall giving you a hard time ever. Most of the posters on PR are sincere and want a winner and want to discuss football intelligently. Those that want to inflame I tend to ridicule.

[bobblehead]

That is a fantastic question though, isn't it?

Thompson loves born and bred football players (see his AJ Hawk comments) but he also more typically engages in projection about what kind of athlete might eventually make a good NFL player (Finley, a lot of O lineman, Jeremy Thompson, Nick Collins, Blackmon, Matthews). This is especially true later in the draft and the best example might be Sam Shields.

Like Wolf he is looking for physical advantage. Does such an approach hurt the basic football ability of the team? Under today's conditions, can a coaching staff teach the unfamiliar how to tackle well?

When TT came he drafted football players until he rebuilt the roster mostly. Now he is gambling more on hitting a homerun on a talent. I prefer the first method as you can improve ones physical skills easier than attitude/instinct. I wish he would get back to drafting football players.

[bobblehead]

Maybe I am confusing the injury with its impact on him the following year. He did get injured in Game #1, 2011 running into Collins.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/28/tramon-williams-insists-shoulder-injury-isnt-career-threatening/

Was that also what caused the neck injury to collins? IF so it might go down as the worst collision in team history. PS...our DB's were running into each other way back then already.

[red]

Was that also what caused the neck injury to collins? IF so it might go down as the worst collision in team history. PS...our DB's were running into each other way back then already.

No, i remember someone trying to jump over collins and landed ass first on nicks head

And i dont think it was tramon

[woodbuck27]

No that wasn't specific to you. I don't ever think you are really out of line or overboard and thus I can't recall giving you a hard time ever. Most of the posters on PR are sincere and want a winner and want to discuss football intelligently. Those that want to inflame I tend to ridicule.


OK good then we're cool.

If I step out of line with some of the humor I use or in any way affront your needs as Packer fan lets discuss that.

As a Packer fan I have the same agenda that you do. I want to support a team I'm proud of. I live football 365 days a year as a Packer and NFL fan. I'm always here when present to make this Packer home the best NFL team site on the internet. I truly try.

I'm reasonable to get along with. If you have a problem with me simply address that to me with some manners and you've got me.

[RashanGary]

I think Thompson deserves to be thought of as one of the best GM's of the last decade. I'm glad we have him.

As far as criticizing this season, sometimes I think people are trigger-quick to point fingers and blame before it's really necessary. It's the NFL. It's not always going to be rosy, but we're a team with a front office (personnel and coaching) that has us in position to compete for a SB victory year after year after year.

All is good in Green Bay. Nothing to see here, not yet anyway.

[KYPack]

No, i remember someone trying to jump over collins and landed ass first on nicks head

And i dont think it was tramon

It was James Stewart from Carolina. I watched that play 20 -30 times. Only one angle showed how bad Nick torqued his neck. From all the other angles, it just looked like a play. The last NFL tackle for a HOF safety that will never make the Hall.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Bates left GB when he didn't get the HC job. Sanders was MM's DC.

Ah, thank you for the correction.

[Fritz]

No, i remember someone trying to jump over collins and landed ass first on nicks head

And i dont think it was tramon

Here's a quote of yours that I find humorous and with which I at least partially agree: "We ovespend on our own, why cant we ovespend on others?"

The case in point is probably Brad Jones. He sucks! The team doesn't often seem to let itself get into a corner, but occasionally they do, then they overpay the guy that's there. That seemed to be the case with Jones.

As for the backup QB, I don't think any NFL backup, with maybe one or two exceptions, would have helped more or less than any of the others the Pack has had. Shaun Hill comes to mind as one who might have, the Bears' QB the other.

And yes, a team can get frustrated and beaten down with so many injuries; nonetheless, I am disappointed in this defense.

[Pugger]

I think TT deserves plenty of critisism

And not because of the backup qb mess. Like others have said, we're not talking about our backup not being good enough, he got hurt right away. We' re talking about how our third and fourth string qb isn't good enough. Your third stringer is always gonna be a practice squad guy, your fouth stringer is never gonna be on your roster at the beginning of the year

My problm with tt is the fact that he only uses the draft to build, and a lot of those picks are turning out to be misses

And the overpaying for our own average talent. People like to say its good to stay out of free agency because you always have to overpay. Well we have ovepaid for tramon, hawk, finley, brad jones, bush, and i'm sure theres a few more. These are free agent busts. If they had come from other teams we would be talking about how they we horrible signings

We ovespend on our own, why cant we ovespend on others?

We need a safety, and cant draft one, go sign a guy who can actually start in the nfl. We cant draft o line talent, go get some

Wait a week into free agency for all the crazy deal to get done, then start filling holes

How many 3rd and 4th string QBs are gonna be good enough to win in this league? Isn't that why they aren't the #1 backup? Not many teams prepare for losing both their starting QB and his backup. We just got incredibly unlucky in this regard. :-(

[Pugger]

Ted Thompson seems to me to be a stubborn man.

As long as it acts that way the Green Bay Packers will be at a disadvantage.

In my life I've learned that what isn't working simply needs to be fixed or renewed.

I believe that Ted Thompson needs to change somehow.

I believe that TT needs a brand new blueprint for that change.

My concern as a Packer fan...TT's simply never going to get there.

Back to the meaning of the word... stubborn:

adjective: stubborn

Having or showing dogged determination not to change one's attitude or position on something, especially in spite of good reasons to do so.

Gee, I thought this was the GM who assembled the roster that won a SB just a couple of years ago. Man, we lose a few games because the best player in the game - who was drafted by said GM - goes out and now nobody at 1265 has a clue what they are doing?

[Pugger]

Most blown achilles happen non contact. It may have been bad, but I agree with your assessment.

I thought Wallace pulled his groin...?

[Smidgeon]

It was James Stewart from Carolina. I watched that play 20 -30 times. Only one angle showed how bad Nick torqued his neck. From all the other angles, it just looked like a play. The last NFL tackle for a HOF safety that will never make the Hall.

He was really fun to watch. And it's sad that not only was his HOF career cut short, but we were "robbed" of the joy of watching such a talented player on OUR team.

[woodbuck27]

Gee, I thought this was the GM who assembled the roster that won a SB just a couple of years ago. Man, we lose a few games because the best player in the game - who was drafted by said GM - goes out and now nobody at 1265 has a clue what they are doing?

I'm saying in my observation he appears 'stubborn'.

Just stubborn Pugger... NOT brain dead.

[Rutnstrut]

I think Thompson deserves to be thought of as one of the best GM's of the last decade. I'm glad we have him.

As far as criticizing this season, sometimes I think people are trigger-quick to point fingers and blame before it's really necessary. It's the NFL. It's not always going to be rosy, but we're a team with a front office (personnel and coaching) that has us in position to compete for a SB victory year after year after year.

All is good in Green Bay. Nothing to see here, not yet anyway.

The thing is, defensively speaking it's not just one bad season. This train wreck has been in the making for years, and it's on TT for not heading it off.

[bobblehead]

I thought Wallace pulled his groin...?

yep, i was using the achilles as an example that I actually knew something about.

[bobblehead]

The thing is, defensively speaking it's not just one bad season. This train wreck has been in the making for years, and it's on TT for not heading it off.

True enough. Generally you are a hysterical over reactor, but you are correct here. This has been coming on slowly. We need to find the root cause. I personally believe its a symptom of MM and the way he practices and his general game philosophy. You say its on TT, does that mean you don't think we have enough talent on D?

[KYPack]

He was really fun to watch. And it's sad that not only was his HOF career cut short, but we were "robbed" of the joy of watching such a talented player on OUR team.

Great ballplayer. Once he hit his stride only Ed Reed was better and he may have even surpassed Ed in time.

It's almost painful now to watch his killer pick in the SB, knowing we would lose him forever the next season.

[woodbuck27]

True enough. Generally you are a hysterical over reactor, but you are correct here. This has been coming on slowly. We need to find the root cause. I personally believe its a symptom of MM and the way he practices and his general game philosophy. You say its on TT, does that mean you don't think we have enough talent on D?

Ask yourself why does a respected member of Packerats like B. start this thread? Why do some of us welcome an examination of Ted Thompson? There are very intelligent people here at Packerrats and I also believe fair and reasonable minded as well.

The objective of this thread should concern all of us in terms of what's right and not who's right. We expend tremendous energy sometimes examining things Packers. I believe this thread will survive long and in time be exceeded 'only' by the Favre thread in terms of it's prominence on Packerrats.

If we arrive at a consensus that the team is flawed in any way and let's simply start with what we see on ST's. If nothing is done by MM >>> TT to secure a change.

Of course TT will be then to blame as it's a case of shit flowing >>> from uphill.

I realize this is a shock to some of you Packer fans (many Packerrats) that have literally stood Ted Thompson on a pedestal. I view Ted Thompson otherwise. I try hard to overall be objective in my views and examination of Ted Thompson.

Hey ... I was once there and Brett Favre and now see it all in a different light. Mind you I see Favre for all the good he did do too, as what will usher him into the HOF.

I'm very concerned and dedicating some serious time to studying this now bobblehead.

Our beloved Packers has been in some general decline since we won the Super Bowl; more specifically after we went 15-1 in the 2011 season when all seemed so very good. I believe as Packer fans we need to focus on everything since the end of the 2011 season to discover what's been, and is happening..

It's not enough as fans to merely slam Ted Thompson. Rather best to look at his moves, 'no moves' and critique the Packers GM not call for his head or dump all over him. I mean I'm one of the first here to poke fun at Ted Thompson because frankly he seems weird to me. It's a personality thing ... he's just not my type of MAN. He's not the Man's Man I wish he could be. I was groomed in a tough environment. Raised to stand up straight and do all I can/could to get the plan right. Do all I could every single day to keep it there or better it.

Thus my worst hair pull and TT and his invisibility. Sometimes that man seems to literally disappear.

Also ... as I've posted lately. Maybe it's just my observation and I'm totally misled but Ted Thompson seems simply stubborn to who he is and doesn't demonstrate someone who grows.

I don't give a damn for what he supposedly did and gets credit for in the past in terms of the now. Drafting Aaron Rodgers was by far his crowning achievement as Packer GM.He's made other drasft picks on the offensive side of the ball that proved impressive.

On the defensive side. Take away Nick Collins and CM III and who really has excited you to date?

It's for me the fan. What have you done for me lately?

I'm positive that the Green Bay Packers are more challenged defensively than two seasons ago and that challenge is growing because the product doesn't meet the demand. We lost Nick Collins and Charles Woodson is playing in Oakland. I recognize these loss's and why we suffered them. I understand their impact on our 'D'.

I am paying attention. Overall it's more that those loss's and a deteriorating 'D'. Ted Thompson must share the blame here along with the Packer coaching staff.

If I could address TT in his office the focus of my visit as a concerned Green Bay packer fan:

Ted Thompson must do more to provide better talent on defense and STOP awarding players that don't deserve such.

GO PACK GO !

[Fritz]

I'm very concerned and dedicating some serious time to studying this now bobblehead.

We've been in some general decline since we won the Super Bowl and more specifically after we went 15-1 in the 2011 season and all seemed so awesome. I believe as Packer fans we need to focus on everything since the end of the 2011 season.

It's not enough as fans to merely slam Ted Thompson but to look at his moves and no moves and critique the Packers GM not call for his head 'just now' or dump all over him. I mean I'm one of the first here to poke fun at Ted Thompson because frankly he seems weird to me. It's a personality thing ...he's just not my type of MAN. He's not the Man's Man I wish he could be. I was groomed in a tough environment. Raised to stnd up straight and do all I can to get the plan right and do all I could every single day to keep it there or better it.

Ted Thompson seems simply stubborn to who he is and doesn't demonstrate someone who grows.

I don't give a damn for what he supposedly did and gets credit for in the past in terms of the now.

It's for me the fan. What have you done for me lately?

I'm positive that the Green Bay Packers are more challenged defensively than two seasons ago and that challenge is growing because the product doesn't meet the demand.

Ted Thompson must share the blame here along with the Packer coaching staff.

Ted Thompson must do more to provide better talent on defense and STOP awarding players that don't deserve such.

GO PACK GO !


What people seem to forget is that after losing back-to-back games to the Lions and Patriots in 2010, the team was perilously close to missing the playoffs and lots of fans - on this site - wanted MM and TT gone. Then, well, we know what happened.

It's easy for us to note some kind of long term decline, but it was only five games ago a lot of us - a lot - were starting to think this season, this team, had the feel of 2010. They'd already had a boatload of injuries, but they hung in, the D seemed to be starting to jell (at least against the run), and the offense looked more balanced than it had since Ahman Green was in his prime.

But the injuries cascaded, and did not stop even with Rodgers' injury. It's been a clusterfuck of an injury-filled season, moreso in terms of key players than even in 2010, given that Rodgers has been out so long.

While I am deeply disappointed with the defense, and I am hoping MM and company will take a deep look at the causes of the many defensive breakdowns, and while I'd probably be glad if they ditched Capers at season's end, I also would be okay if they kept the guy.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, as they used to say.

[woodbuck27]

What people seem to forget is that after losing back-to-back games to the Lions and Patriots in 2010, the team was perilously close to missing the playoffs and lots of fans - on this site - wanted MM and TT gone. Then, well, we know what happened.

It's easy for us to note some kind of long term decline, but it was only five games ago a lot of us - a lot - were starting to think this season, this team, had the feel of 2010. They'd already had a boatload of injuries, but they hung in, the D seemed to be starting to jell (at least against the run), and the offense looked more balanced than it had since Ahman Green was in his prime.

But the injuries cascaded, and did not stop even with Rodgers' injury. It's been a clusterfuck of an injury-filled season, moreso in terms of key players than even in 2010, given that Rodgers has been out so long.

While I am deeply disappointed with the defense, and I am hoping MM and company will take a deep look at the causes of the many defensive breakdowns, and while I'd probably be glad if they ditched Capers at season's end, I also would be okay if they kept the guy.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, as they used to say.

Yes Fritz:

We have enough here to determine the why's and how's to keep moving forward.

The bottom line...TT and MM have to be on point with or ahead of us and always on TARGET >>> SUPER BOWL !

[Fritz]

I certainly hope that they are ahead of the fans. Most GM's - the vast majority - probably are. Well, except maybe Matt Millen.

[woodbuck27]

I certainly hope that they are ahead of the fans. Most GM's - the vast majority - probably are. Well, except maybe Matt Millen.

There are a lot of very observant and intelligent fans associated with any Pro Sports team.

They have reasons to complain or know what those in charge of their teams must do to head in any proper direction.

[Rutnstrut]

True enough. Generally you are a hysterical over reactor, but you are correct here. This has been coming on slowly. We need to find the root cause. I personally believe its a symptom of MM and the way he practices and his general game philosophy. You say its on TT, does that mean you don't think we have enough talent on D?

I actually think the talent on the D isn't terrible, I just don't think Capers knows how to maximize the talent that's there. IMO he seems to have in his mind how things should go, if they don't go that way he is useless. But I also think MM is the same way, if things don't fall the way he thinks they should, he is terrible at making adjustments.

[Patler]

I actually think the talent on the D isn't terrible, I just don't think Capers knows how to maximize the talent that's there. IMO he seems to have in his mind how things should go, if they don't go that way he is useless. But I also think MM is the same way, if things don't fall the way he thinks they should, he is terrible at making adjustments.

Trying to force the players into the system, rather than adapting the system to fit the players?
I have had that feeling with both from time to time. When they have the right players, their systems work very well. If not, well....

[Rutnstrut]

Trying to force the players into the system, rather than adapting the system to fit the players?
I have had that feeling with both from time to time. When they have the right players, their systems work very well. If not, well....

Exactly, which to me makes the team's latest woes mostly brought on by coaching inadequacies, and in a way by keeping those inadequate coaches around it's also TT's fault.

[Smidgeon]

I actually think the talent on the D isn't terrible, I just don't think Capers knows how to maximize the talent that's there. IMO he seems to have in his mind how things should go, if they don't go that way he is useless. But I also think MM is the same way, if things don't fall the way he thinks they should, he is terrible at making adjustments.

That adaptability was one of the things I was initially sold on regarding both M3 and Capers. I expected to see scheme to take advantage of mismatches, to see everything from the 4-3 to the 46 to the 3-4 depending on the players he had, the matchups, and the team they were playing against. In fact, I remember that being one of the selling points, that Capers could run both the 4-3 and the 3-4. Instead, we're seeing what you see: inflexibility.

But I submit that it might not be Capers (not that I'm defending this defensive debacle). Considering the secondary communication issues, I wonder if the ability to know and master multiples defense is too much for the average player. Conversely, I wonder if the types of athletes they have don't translate to multiples. I don't know, but I expected a lot more besides varied blitzes and the occasional psycho. Although, to be completely fair, Capers nickel defense in 2010 with Collins and Woodson was exactly that: a defense tailored to the skills of the players that did an excellent job shutting down opposing offenses.

I think M3 does some of the multiples stuff, but not game-in and game-out like I was expecting. It seems to be more season in and season out. One year it was all inverted wishbone, another year it was 5 wide. So there's some evidence there, but I guess it follows M3's desire to stay the course and only make deliberate changes. Thus why they occur only on a yearly basis.

I do wish both would be more flexible in season though. I think JH was extrapolating about the way this team's multiple offense could work, and I got dreamy thinking about splitting Starks out wide or bringing him in to run with good varied success, seeing DJ Williams in a varied role as well (and now he's gone, so maybe the light never went on), and seeing Cobb used all over.

In both M3 and Caper's cases though, it seems that they both believe in tried and true bases from which to variate but not stray too far. Maybe straying too far has been proven to be highly unsuccessful, but I still wanted to see more of it.

P.S. I apologize for the rambling. We took our one-year-old daughter to the ER last night due to potential concussion symptoms, and I'm really tired (so far, she's okay).

[woodbuck27]

That adaptability was one of the things I was initially sold on regarding both M3 and Capers. I expected to see scheme to take advantage of mismatches, to see everything from the 4-3 to the 46 to the 3-4 depending on the players he had, the matchups, and the team they were playing against. In fact, I remember that being one of the selling points, that Capers could run both the 4-3 and the 3-4. Instead, we're seeing what you see: inflexibility.

But I submit that it might not be Capers (not that I'm defending this defensive debacle). Considering the secondary communication issues, I wonder if the ability to know and master multiples defense is too much for the average player. Conversely, I wonder if the types of athletes they have don't translate to multiples. I don't know, but I expected a lot more besides varied blitzes and the occasional psycho. Although, to be completely fair, Capers nickel defense in 2010 with Collins and Woodson was exactly that: a defense tailored to the skills of the players that did an excellent job shutting down opposing offenses.

I think M3 does some of the multiples stuff, but not game-in and game-out like I was expecting. It seems to be more season in and season out. One year it was all inverted wishbone, another year it was 5 wide. So there's some evidence there, but I guess it follows M3's desire to stay the course and only make deliberate changes. Thus why they occur only on a yearly basis.

I do wish both would be more flexible in season though. I think JH was extrapolating about the way this team's multiple offense could work, and I got dreamy thinking about splitting Starks out wide or bringing him in to run with good varied success, seeing DJ Williams in a varied role as well (and now he's gone, so maybe the light never went on), and seeing Cobb used all over.

In both M3 and Caper's cases though, it seems that they both believe in tried and true bases from which to variate but not stray too far. Maybe straying too far has been proven to be highly unsuccessful, but I still wanted to see more of it.

P.S. I apologize for the rambling. We took our one-year-old daughter to the ER last night due to potential concussion symptoms, and I'm really tired (so far, she's okay).

No your post offers a lot.

I hope your daughter is truly OK Man. You and your wife must somehow rest.

[Patler]

Exactly, which to me makes the team's latest woes mostly brought on by coaching inadequacies, and in a way by keeping those inadequate coaches around it's also TT's fault.

On the other hand, I just read an article mentioning that the Packers have the most consecutive playoff appearances in the NFC with 4, and are tied for the most playoff appearances over the last 10 seasons with 7. So, maybe we are all expecting too much???

[run pMc]

On the other hand, I just read an article mentioning that the Packers have the most consecutive playoff appearances in the NFC with 4, and are tied for the most playoff appearances over the last 10 seasons with 7. So, maybe we are all expecting too much???

Pretty incredible stat when you consider teams like Indy and the Patriots, who always seem to be in the playoffs.
I do think GB has been unbelievably fortunate with QB's over the last 20 years, and I thank my lucky stars for it. Rodgers' injury and the mess at backup QB have really shown how hard it is to win without a QB...especially if injuries hit other places as well (or the defense decides to collapse).

[red]

On the other hand, I just read an article mentioning that the Packers have the most consecutive playoff appearances in the NFC with 4, and are tied for the most playoff appearances over the last 10 seasons with 7. So, maybe we are all expecting too much???

Winning the nfc north and getting in the playoffs because of it is like winning the special olympics

[woodbuck27]

On the other hand, I just read an article mentioning that the Packers have the most consecutive playoff appearances in the NFC with 4, and are tied for the most playoff appearances over the last 10 seasons with 7. So, maybe we are all expecting too much???

I seldom drink wine.

I never water down a good beer.

[woodbuck27]

Winning the nfc north and getting in the playoffs because of it is like winning the special olympics

Maybe I'm dreaming but if Ted gets it right.

I can picture this talented CB, a 5th round prospect heading to our TC late July/Aug 2014. Yes he's from a small College; but as we all know. TT can never be associated with flash. TT certainly has a keen eye for any 'diamond in the rough' football GUY. He only selects such talent upon careful reading and analysis that all takes place after tireless hours in his solitary office. All that coming after a comprehensive examination beforehand by his crack scouting team.

Here's TT's new Guy:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQALwXBUkiSrkNWW5UObKwSFE8qCtDHv ENkZzN2SuPQokHErxTz

Great teeth as he shouts ...PACKERS !

He's 30 inchs tall and weighs in at 23 lbs. He's fast (a 4.3 - 40) and can leap like hell. Great hands, well very fast hands to snatch balls and break up pass's and go house.

I'm hopeful that TT's going to get it.

[Rodgers12]

Maybe I'm dreaming but if Ted gets it right.

I can picture this talented CB, a 5th round prospect heading to our TC late July/Aug 2014. Yes he's from a small College; but as we all know. TT can never be associated with flash. TT certainly has a keen eye for any 'diamond in the rough' football GUY. He only selects such talent upon careful reading and analysis that all takes place after tireless hours in his solitary office. All that coming after a comprehensive examination beforehand by his crack scouting team.

Here's TT's new Guy:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQALwXBUkiSrkNWW5UObKwSFE8qCtDHv ENkZzN2SuPQokHErxTz

Great teeth as he shouts ...PACKERS !

He's 30 inchs tall and weighs in at 23 lbs. He's fast (a 4.3 - 40) and can leap like hell. Great hands, well very fast hands to snatch balls and break up pass's and go house.

I'm hopeful that TT's going to get it.

lol

[woodbuck27]

lol

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQK2ZBYjnWQ-GobrvieqoabegOsMkDesPCzNeJHBACbypQ06x1_Rg

[bobblehead]

On the other hand, I just read an article mentioning that the Packers have the most consecutive playoff appearances in the NFC with 4, and are tied for the most playoff appearances over the last 10 seasons with 7. So, maybe we are all expecting too much???

You sure you didn't just read one of my posts responding to a select few posters?

[bobblehead]

Winning the nfc north and getting in the playoffs because of it is like winning the special olympics

You mean like that year the bears won it and lost in the NFCC game to the packers? Then we won the superbowl. I guess beating every team in the NFC and then the AFCC is now nothing more than special olympics. God I am glad you didn't grade my 98% test scores in High school:

YOU MISSED 2%....YOU SUCK...YOU FAIL!!!!

[red]

You mean like that year the bears won it and lost in the NFCC game to the packers? Then we won the superbowl. I guess beating every team in the NFC and then the AFCC is now nothing more than special olympics. God I am glad you didn't grade my 98% test scores in High school:

YOU MISSED 2%....YOU SUCK...YOU FAIL!!!!

Ah bobble, if i had to teach your know it all ass in school, i would have stuck your head in a plastic bag and wrapped some cinder blocks around your neck and tossed you in a pool

Smug little fuck

Just gotta suck all the last little bit of fun right out of the site dont you?

[woodbuck27]

Ah bobble, if i had to teach your know it all ass in school, i would have stuck your head in a plastic bag and wrapped some cinder blocks around your neck and tossed you in a pool

Smug little fuck

Just gotta suck all the last little bit of fun right out of the site dont you?

This Packer fan has found a way to cope:

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQbVUR_Fm4G6u8SJ4MtuYWI0nmJoehdy drcLigaV2fD3OXFBG8O

[bobblehead]

Ah bobble, if i had to teach your know it all ass in school, i would have stuck your head in a plastic bag and wrapped some cinder blocks around your neck and tossed you in a pool

Smug little fuck

Just gotta suck all the last little bit of fun right out of the site dont you?

Sorry red, I wrote that as tongue in cheek. I don't mean to suck the fun outta the site, but the NFC north has been a tough division. Now its an ebb and flow, the south and west are dominating this year and winning the north won't be a big deal, but its not like that every year. In any event I would love to sneak in and be healthy....there would be many a team not wanting to play us.

[Bretsky]

Here's a quote of yours that I find humorous and with which I at least partially agree: "We ovespend on our own, why cant we ovespend on others?"

The case in point is probably Brad Jones. He sucks! The team doesn't often seem to let itself get into a corner, but occasionally they do, then they overpay the guy that's there. That seemed to be the case with Jones.

.



It seems we have another member for the Wagon of the J.A.G. aka......J.A.J. ......Just a Guy/Jones Club.

started stepping off the wagon after erring in homerville earlier this year. Now we've upgraded to a Madden Cruiser because there seems to be more space needed and it's going to be a Long Ride !!!!!

[Bretsky]

True enough. Generally you are a hysterical over reactor, but you are correct here. This has been coming on slowly. We need to find the root cause. I personally believe its a symptom of MM and the way he practices and his general game philosophy. You say its on TT, does that mean you don't think we have enough talent on D?


Do you really think it's this simple ?

IMO it's way bigger than a symptom of MM and the way he practices

I think it's a combination of MM and definitely not having enough talent.

We've still failed misterably in finding a #2 pass rusher and a dude who is an even capable 2nd starting safety.

We've been asking and wondering when these two prieces will arrive for a while now. That part is on TT. Maybe...maybe we have the pass rusher..but the safety is not on our roster

[Bretsky]

How many 3rd and 4th string QBs are gonna be good enough to win in this league? Isn't that why they aren't the #1 backup? Not many teams prepare for losing both their starting QB and his backup. We just got incredibly unlucky in this regard. :-(


I don't think we had a #2 on our roster. Wallace, IMO.....Flynn....Tolzien....all the same caliber backup. As all you want out of your backup is to maybe go .500 while the starter is out if your GM has the teams surrounded with talent. At minimum, you have to beat the worst team in the NFL at home. IF w do that and win at home vs Atlanta we're still in the game.......as opposed to buried

[Bretsky]

For the record I"m not big to criticize TT about the backup QB; we've been spoiled forever there so he was playing the odds figuring we'd get 16 games. IMO he'll draft a QB next year in round 3 or 4 that he thinks can be a capaable backup.

I am against anybody using the injuries for Seneca Wallace or Tozien to argue we're on our #4 QB now and things would have been different. They are all equal Junk IMO and in reality if we had the Bears backup and many others in the NFL we'd have beat the bottom dweller Vikings and maybe another game as opposed to being on life support.

IMO that last point needs to be acknowledged; in the end I might have tried finding a bottom dwelling QB to back up AROD as well if we lacked cap space or were trying to cut a corner somewhere.

We just got busted for it this year

My bet is we'll have better next year now that it hurt us

[woodbuck27]

Sorry red, I wrote that as tongue in cheek. I don't mean to suck the fun outta the site, but the NFC north has been a tough division. Now its an ebb and flow, the south and west are dominating this year and winning the north won't be a big deal, but its not like that every year. In any event I would love to sneak in and be healthy....there would be many a team not wanting to play us.

I get what your saying in regards to divisional strength overall in the NFC.

Seattle, New Orleans, Carolina and San Francisco. One of these should 'most likely' go to the Super Bowl.

This weekend is very interesting in terms of inter-divisional matchups Seattle @ San Francisco and Carolina @ New Orleans.

Neglecting any point spread .... but rather 'Straight up' bobblehead:

Who wins this week in New Orleans and San Fran?

Looking at the entire NFL.

The NFCN is a lot like the *AFCS and interesting in that every team in the division is still alive to win the division. I'll post this confidently. The Vikings can still win the NFCN. The teams within these two divisions remain competitive with one another.

*I'll qualify that, as the Cleveland Browns are 4-8 and have a split with the division leading Cincinatti Bengals. I didn't check the Tie Break Rule there.

A lot of the experts look respectfully at the Detroit Lions. What is the dagger in the lions foot right now is their curious preoccupation with turning the ball overs and their TO differential. If the Lions overcome that now and get hot. The Lions with Calvin Johnson and a growing overall offense; an excellent 'D' versus the run can beat any NFL team.

The NFCN and the Green Bay Packers:

The experts, media and fans realize that without Aaron Rodgers the Packers can't get it done.

[woodbuck27]

For the record I"m not big to criticize TT about the backup QB; we've been spoiled forever there so he was playing the odds figuring we'd get 16 games. IMO he'll draft a QB next year in round 3 or 4 that he thinks can be a capaable backup.

I am against anybody using the injuries for Seneca Wallace or Tozien to argue we're on our #4 QB now and things would have been different. They are all equal Junk IMO and in reality if we had the Bears backup and many others in the NFL we'd have beat the bottom dweller Vikings and maybe another game as opposed to being on life support.

IMO that last point needs to be acknowledged; in the end I might have tried finding a bottom dwelling QB to back up AROD as well if we lacked cap space or were trying to cut a corner somewhere.

We just got busted for it this year

My bet is we'll have better next year now that it hurt us

Every strong NFL team is 'only' as strong as it's backup QB.

Ted Thompson cannot be excused for ignoring that fact.

Ted Thompson has had another season to see that his team is weak in the secondary on 'D'. He must address need there.

Ted Thompson has to look at the play of his inside LBers and be honestv about their capability in a 3-4 'D'.

Ted Thompson has to see what's going on with the teams BIG MEN in the 3-4 'D' and re-build there.

Overall Ted Thompson must realize that the Green Bay Packer 'D' is in decline since 2010-11. No more procrastination in terms of time in evaluation of his rosters capability there can be tolerated.

Ted Thompson must soon sign CB Sam Shields and WR James Jones or risk losing these valuable men. Let go of BJ Raji (yesterday) and ink Shields and Jones.

Ted Thompson has to carefully evaluate the Packer OL and solidify it for next season. This is vital to the overall health of our QB and RB.

Ted Thompson must talk to MM. TT must reach MM in terms of his play calling. I'll 'only' start right here.

MM has to stop crushing our RB into a wall of men. Is MM just plain stupid in that regard? Holy catfish I don't get MM and that. >>> <<< Ted Thompson !! Right now our OL can't defeat too many men in the box. We don't have the QB now that can trump opposition 'D's and using that against us.

So again I implore both of you. MM and Ted Thompson STOP crushing your RB into a wall.

I can go on but why belabor what Ted Thompson needs to obviously do.

Ted Thompson should see it all better than this Green Bay Packer fan.

Handle it then Ted !

[pbmax]

Exactly, which to me makes the team's latest woes mostly brought on by coaching inadequacies, and in a way by keeping those inadequate coaches around it's also TT's fault.

I think it runs deeper than that. This team has played mostly man to man outside but often turns to zone or off coverage in certain situations or matchups.

However, only Shields now has a track record of good outside man to man. Something in Tramontana's game has fallen off. Shields also looks very uncomfortable in zone or of coverage, though he seems to have gotten better. I don't think the personnel dept has given them ready made talent for starters in EITHER approach.

And the coaches, outside of maybe Shields, haven't been able to finish the job. Hayward was the best hope to solve that puzzle but he has had a lost season. Hyde was not able to do it. Second most disappointing guy is House, whose coverage outside has at times been as loose as Tramontana.

I don't think this problem is unique to the Packers. There will always be mismatches unless your team (Pittsburgh for most of its 3-4 run or Tampa 2) drafts ONLY certain kinds of players to match a single system. What is unique is that the team for three years running has combined this mismatch with a lack of consistent QB pressure. And for two years has added a turnover drought.

[woodbuck27]

I think it runs deeper than that. This team has played mostly man to man outside but often turns to zone or off coverage in certain situations or matchups.

However, only Shields now has a track record of good outside man to man. Something in Tramontana's game has fallen off. Shields also looks very uncomfortable in zone or of coverage, though he seems to have gotten better. I don't think the personnel dept has given them ready made talent for starters in EITHER approach.

And the coaches, outside of maybe Shields, haven't been able to finish the job. Hayward was the best hope to solve that puzzle but he has had a lost season. Hyde was not able to do it. Second most disappointing guy is House, whose coverage outside has at times been as loose as Tramontana.

I don't think this problem is unique to the Packers. There will always be mismatches unless your team (Pittsburgh for most of its 3-4 run or Tampa 2) drafts ONLY certain kinds of players to match a single system. What is unique is that the team for three years running has combined this mismatch with a lack of consistent QB pressure. And for two years has added a turnover drought.

Yes.

[pbmax]

I don't think we had a #2 on our roster. Wallace, IMO.....Flynn....Tolzien....all the same caliber backup. As all you want out of your backup is to maybe go .500 while the starter is out if your GM has the teams surrounded with talent. At minimum, you have to beat the worst team in the NFL at home. IF w do that and win at home vs Atlanta we're still in the game.......as opposed to buried

I think the methods of practice are down on the list. It would help if they would do live to the ground tackling, but 2/3 of the NFL don't do it either and somehow good defense still gets played. McGinn's article about this was at least honest in that there seemed to be no pattern of improvement on D for teams that engaged in live tackle versus those that don't.

[Pugger]

Pretty incredible stat when you consider teams like Indy and the Patriots, who always seem to be in the playoffs.
I do think GB has been unbelievably fortunate with QB's over the last 20 years, and I thank my lucky stars for it. Rodgers' injury and the mess at backup QB have really shown how hard it is to win without a QB...especially if injuries hit other places as well (or the defense decides to collapse).

You just can't win in this league without competent QB play. It is no coincidence that those teams without a franchise QB are habitually drafting in the top 10 every year.

[woodbuck27]

You just can't win in this league without competent QB play. It is no coincidence that those teams without a franchise QB are habitually drafting in the top 10 every year.

Competent QB play:

Does that include competency in a backup QB ?

[woodbuck27]

Packers Podcast: Ted Thompson Not Above Criticism

By Brian Carriveau on Dec 06, 2013 with 33 Comments

http://www.chatsports.com/green-bay-packers/a/Packers-Podcast-Playoffs-Looking-More-Likely-After-Green-Bay-Win-and-Detroit-Loss-2-8953521

[Pugger]

Competent QB play:

Does that include competency in a backup QB ?

Only when you have to play them. :wink:

[smuggler]

My 2cents, I prefer the roster to the coaches. Exception being Kevin Greene (but who doesn't like that guy)...

[Patler]

So, let's revisit the backup QB thing as it relates to Matt Flynn:

3 games played, record of 1-1-1

vs. Vikings - came in with less than a half to go, and trailing 7-23. Produced four consecutive scoring drives to tie in regulation and take the lead in OT. Finished the game 21/36 for 218 yards and 1 TD. QB rating 85.2.

vs. Lions - played horrible, as did all aspects of the team. This wasn't just a Flynn loss.

vs. Falcons - rallied the team in the second half from a 10-21 deficit. Had 3 consecutive second half scoring drives to take the lead. Finished the game 24/32 for 258 yards and 1 TD. QB rating 95.6.

Producing a record of 1-1-1 in three games when the defense continues to play poorly, can you expect more than that from a backup QB? Especially a backup QB who was there only 10 days before seeing his first game action?

[pbmax]

Everyone's shorts are in a bunch because either:

1) Flynn should have been signed earlier

2) A near-certain number 2 should have been in camp at the end of July, not Coleman and Harrell.

But really, the specifics reasons don't matter as most of the crowd who now want to know why Flynn wasn't signed earlier were calling for him to be replaced by Tolzien at halftime of the Falcons game. The only solution or reasoning that would satisfy them would either be Rodgers not getting hurt or spending more money on a backup QB.

They only see the risk, not the payoff of being young and cheap back there. Rest assured, if money was spent to bring in Hasselback, we would have wailing that there is no money to sign core Packer FAs.

[Zool]

Everyone's shorts are in a bunch because either:

1) Flynn should have been signed earlier

2) A near-certain number 2 should have been in camp at the end of July, not Coleman and Harrell.

But really, the specifics reasons don't matter as most of the crowd who now want to know why Flynn wasn't signed earlier were calling for him to be replaced by Tolzien at halftime of the Falcons game. The only solution or reasoning that would satisfy them would either be Rodgers not getting hurt or spending more money on a backup QB.

They only see the risk, not the payoff of being young and cheap back there. Rest assured, if money was spent to bring in Hasselback, we would have wailing that there is no money to sign core Packer FAs.

This doesn't sound so hard to do. Sign every free agent at every position, and then cut the ones who end up sucking. Leave about $50million in dead money every season and never draft again because clearly fans know way more about the NFL than the people who work there.

[denverYooper]

So, let's revisit the backup QB thing as it relates to Matt Flynn:

3 games played, record of 1-1-1

vs. Vikings - came in with less than a half to go, and trailing 7-23. Produced four consecutive scoring drives to tie in regulation and take the lead in OT. Finished the game 21/36 for 218 yards and 1 TD. QB rating 85.2.

vs. Lions - played horrible, as did all aspects of the team. This wasn't just a Flynn loss.

vs. Falcons - rallied the team in the second half from a 10-21 deficit. Had 3 consecutive second half scoring drives to take the lead. Finished the game 24/32 for 258 yards and 1 TD. QB rating 95.6.

Producing a record of 1-1-1 in three games when the defense continues to play poorly, can you expect more than that from a backup QB? Especially a backup QB who was there only 10 days before seeing his first game action?

I brought this up elsewhere in a slightly different form, but Flynn does seem to be the ideal backup for them. He's got his limitations, as any backup does, but he can run their offense (of which no huddle is a significant part) and doesn't make a lot of killer mistakes. Generally, the most you can ask a backup QB is to be able to get out of a game or keep your team afloat while their franchise QB recovers.

It'll be interesting to see if they keep Flynn as a longer-term backup or go with Tolzien. On the one hand, Tolzien has a better arm and quicker trigger. On the other, Flynn holds the ball longer but has generally made better decisions. Is that a function of his experience with McCarthy's system? Can Tolzien get there with time in the system? I can see it more likely that Flynn would be ok serving as a long-term backup in GB, whereas Tolzien might want a shot at the starter's apple after a couple of years under M3 (counting this year).

[bobblehead]

So, let's revisit the backup QB thing as it relates to Matt Flynn:

3 games played, record of 1-1-1

vs. Vikings - came in with less than a half to go, and trailing 7-23. Produced four consecutive scoring drives to tie in regulation and take the lead in OT. Finished the game 21/36 for 218 yards and 1 TD. QB rating 85.2.

vs. Lions - played horrible, as did all aspects of the team. This wasn't just a Flynn loss.

vs. Falcons - rallied the team in the second half from a 10-21 deficit. Had 3 consecutive second half scoring drives to take the lead. Finished the game 24/32 for 258 yards and 1 TD. QB rating 95.6.

Producing a record of 1-1-1 in three games when the defense continues to play poorly, can you expect more than that from a backup QB? Especially a backup QB who was there only 10 days before seeing his first game action?

The defense played well in Atlanta. Look, blaming TT for lack of an all pro back up QB is comical. Its reaching. Its desperate. Its sort of like the democrats blaming the GOP for not fixing THEIR healthcare law.

[woodbuck27]

So, let's revisit the backup QB thing as it relates to Matt Flynn:

3 games played, record of 1-1-1

vs. Vikings - came in with less than a half to go, and trailing 7-23. Produced four consecutive scoring drives to tie in regulation and take the lead in OT. Finished the game 21/36 for 218 yards and 1 TD. QB rating 85.2.

vs. Lions - played horrible, as did all aspects of the team. This wasn't just a Flynn loss.

vs. Falcons - rallied the team in the second half from a 10-21 deficit. Had 3 consecutive second half scoring drives to take the lead. Finished the game 24/32 for 258 yards and 1 TD. QB rating 95.6.

Producing a record of 1-1-1 in three games when the defense continues to play poorly, can you expect more than that from a backup QB? Especially a backup QB who was there only 10 days before seeing his first game action?

I have to say....surprizing.

I believe that Flynn has respect or is well liked and a bonus for the team in the locker room and that rallies (inspires)the team to play better. Looking at his body of work and as limited as it is...doesn't reveal that he's a bad QB. He does get the job done.

Matt Flynn showed more arm strength Vs Atlanta. Up next... Dallas looked terrible Vs the Bears on MNF.

We get them in Dallas but on a short week? Matt Flynn again in week 15!? MM may well be thinking that's best.

I'll give MM credit too for sticking with Flynn when Lambeau Field had turned loud/ugly at half time of that Atlanta game. There had to be pressure on MM to make a switch but really...to what? Tolzien is terrific or bust!

What was MM thinking just after half time Vs Atlanta?

Maybe....MM will think twice about using his RB late in a half and possibly seeing him banged up when the gain and very limited chance of that (points up on a score board) wasn't worth the longer term risk. As it went Lacy was hobbled with a senseless play call. Take the knee MM !!

The Packer fans let MM know he was acting like a bone head at the end of that first half. How Mike could have been in some shock/surprize at the fans response is a concern to me. Wake up Mike ! There's a lot of Packer fan eyes onn you now. I've seen fan reactions get coach's fired and maybe that can happen even in Green Bay.

Fans are funny creations. Everything is calm when your winning but lose a few and POW! Off like a cannon. Fans really only want one thing... WINS!!!

Back to Matt Flynn.

He's continuing to prove that he's paying attention and could be called 'clutch'. Behind the Packers OL the QB position can implode anytime. It can mean a very bad day for Matt Flynn and ...it can mean surgery for Aaron Rodgers.

MM has to be hoping that Aaron is ruled medically unsound to go Vs Dallas. Aaron isn't thinking that way and neither is Matt Flynn. I like Flynn's attitude and brains.

Matt Flynn knows that Aaron Rodgers gives the Packers the very best chance of a 2013 season playoff appearance as the NFCN Champion.

In Dallas this coming Sunday... take em Packers !

GO PACK GO !

[Pugger]

Everyone's shorts are in a bunch because either:

1) Flynn should have been signed earlier

2) A near-certain number 2 should have been in camp at the end of July, not Coleman and Harrell.

But really, the specifics reasons don't matter as most of the crowd who now want to know why Flynn wasn't signed earlier were calling for him to be replaced by Tolzien at halftime of the Falcons game. The only solution or reasoning that would satisfy them would either be Rodgers not getting hurt or spending more money on a backup QB.

They only see the risk, not the payoff of being young and cheap back there. Rest assured, if money was spent to bring in Hasselback, we would have wailing that there is no money to sign core Packer FAs.

How long was Flynn umemployed before we signed him after Wallace got hurt? 2/3 days? We had a healthy Wallace and Tolzien on the PS when Flynn was cut by Buffalo if memory serves.

[woodbuck27]

The defense played well in Atlanta. Look, blaming TT for lack of an all pro back up QB is comical. Its reaching. Its desperate. Its sort of like the democrats blaming the GOP for not fixing THEIR healthcare law.

Ohh Ohh Honk !! :wink:

! An improper use of a simile.

Green Bay Packers <<< >>> Democrats ~ GOP ~ Healthcare Law

[Smidgeon]

I brought this up elsewhere in a slightly different form, but Flynn does seem to be the ideal backup for them. He's got his limitations, as any backup does, but he can run their offense (of which no huddle is a significant part) and doesn't make a lot of killer mistakes. Generally, the most you can ask a backup QB is to be able to get out of a game or keep your team afloat while their franchise QB recovers.

It'll be interesting to see if they keep Flynn as a longer-term backup or go with Tolzien. On the one hand, Tolzien has a better arm and quicker trigger. On the other, Flynn holds the ball longer but has generally made better decisions. Is that a function of his experience with McCarthy's system? Can Tolzien get there with time in the system? I can see it more likely that Flynn would be ok serving as a long-term backup in GB, whereas Tolzien might want a shot at the starter's apple after a couple of years under M3 (counting this year).

I think the hope when they let Flynn walk in Free Agency was that they'd find somebody with a better arm (Coleman) who would learn the system and become a competent backup. The guess here is that they don't like Flynn's arm and wanted a stronger QB back there. When Seneca dropped to injury, their development was Tolzein, a guy with a stronger arm. When they realized he didn't know the system enough, they put Flynn into the game.

So with that as a backdrop, I think they keep them both through the offseason, gauge Tolzein's development, understanding of the system, and decision making, then jettison Flynn in cut downs if those are all up to par.

[pbmax]

I have to say....surprizing.

I believe that Flynn has respect or is well liked and a bonus for the team in the locker room and that rallies (inspires)the team to play better. Looking at his body of work and as limited as it is...doesn't reveal that he's a bad QB. He does get the job done.

He is a bad QB, a bad starting QB. He is fine for a backup. I don't think his arm got stronger in a week. He was playing a lesser defense than on Thanksgiving and he was at home.


Maybe....MM will think twice about using his RB late in a half and possibly seeing him banged up when the gain and very limited chance of that (points up on a score board) wasn't worth the longer term risk. As it went Lacy was hobbled with a senseless play call. Take the knee MM !!

The Packer fans let MM know he was acting like a bone head at the end of that first half. How Mike could have been in some shock/surprize at the fans response is a concern to me. Wake up Mike ! There's a lot of Packer fan eyes onn you now. I've seen fan reactions get coach's fired and maybe that can happen even in Green Bay.

Fans weren't booing the Lacy run because of the injury risk. The Packers were down big with an anemic offense and they wanted to see a scoring attempt. The only thing that would have made them boo louder would be if M3 took a knee. He could not pass again unless he wanted to risk punting to the Falcons.

[woodbuck27]

He is a bad QB, a bad starting QB. He is fine for a backup. I don't think his arm got stronger in a week. He was playing a lesser defense than on Thanksgiving and he was at home.



Fans weren't booing the Lacy run because of the injury risk. The Packers were down big with an anemic offense and they wanted to see a scoring attempt. The only thing that would have made them boo louder would be if M3 took a knee. He could not pass again unless he wanted to risk punting to the Falcons.

I cannot with the evidence I gleen post that Matt Flynn is >>> a BAD NFL QB. He 'in fact' hasn't looked really bad overall in his NFL appearances. Look at his record pbmax. That record could be far worse. We could certainly agree that he's bad as a starting QB. I'm not sure of his endurance or toughness. I'm certainly questioning his arm strength after three - four consecutive NFL starts. There is no way to examine that from his past experience in the NFL. The fan cannot examine that.

Ted Thompson and his scouting staff sure can...did...and could. Us the fans need to take 'a wait and see'.

RE: MM and his final play call at the end of the first half Vs Atlanta:

The media reports that the fans booing was the result of the Packers 'O' stinking out the joint in the first half of the Atlanta game. It looks like the icing on the cake for the boo's was MM and not calling a knee at the end of that half and seeing Lacy limp off the field as the half ended. Is it simply a media driven criticism of Mike McCarthy.

I'm a football fan. If I was right next to MM in the stands and witnessed that call and results. Frankly I'd have boo's for MM if I could muster that up after some shock over his last play call. Look at my reaction after that call in the game thread. I'm not even watching that game on TV. All I have is NFL.Com for that game.

My reaction was immediate and not at all expressing 'pleased'. If I'm seeing it on TV and moreso LIVE...MM gets it !

[pbmax]

I cannot with the evidence I gleen post that Matt Flynn is >>> a BAD NFL QB. He 'in fact' hasn't looked really bad overall in his NFL appearances. Look at his record pbmax. That record could be far worse. We could certainly agree that he's bad as a starting QB. I'm not sure of his endurance or toughness. I'm certainly questioning his arm strength after three - four consecutive NFL starts. There is no way to examine that from his past experience in the NFL. The fan cannot examine that.

Ted Thompson and his scouting staff sure can...did...and could. Us the fans need to take 'a wait and see'.

He has failed to secure a starting job with the Packers, the Seahawks, the Raiders and the Bills. He has started so few games that his record doesn't make much of a dent in that fact, but he is 2-3 in his starts. His career passer rating is 87.4. Its 81.4 this year in Green Bay.

He is so well thought of by the Packer staff that they avoided signing him twice before bringing him in when Wallace was hurt and they were down to one healthy QB.

It is sometimes said that there are not really 32 starting quality QBs in the League. He is 33rd or perhaps lower.

As I said he is a bad starter, but OK for a backup.

[bobblehead]

He has failed to secure a starting job with the Packers, the Seahawks, the Raiders and the Bills. He has started so few games that his record doesn't make much of a dent in that fact, but he is 2-3 in his starts. His career passer rating is 87.4. Its 81.4 this year in Green Bay.

He is so well thought of by the Packer staff that they avoided signing him twice before bringing him in when Wallace was hurt and they were down to one healthy QB.

It is sometimes said that there are not really 32 starting quality QBs in the League. He is 33rd or perhaps lower.

As I said he is a bad starter, but OK for a backup.

I can't say how he is as a starter. He hasn't had enough sample size to be sure. I think he could be a bottom 1/3 starter in this league. Lead a solid team to 10-6. I think he would lead a team to a record that resembled the talent. If he were to be starter in GB for an entire season I think 10-6 or 11-5 would be likely. I don't think they avoided bringing him in because of him, as much as 1) his salary and 2) not changing from tolzien too fast. When he cleared waivers and wallace was hurt we brought him in.

If he had been available at the beginning of the season at league minimum I think he would have been the backup then.

[Bretsky]

Everyone's shorts are in a bunch because either:

1) Flynn should have been signed earlier

2) A near-certain number 2 should have been in camp at the end of July, not Coleman and Harrell.

But really, the specifics reasons don't matter as most of the crowd who now want to know why Flynn wasn't signed earlier were calling for him to be replaced by Tolzien at halftime of the Falcons game. The only solution or reasoning that would satisfy them would either be Rodgers not getting hurt or spending more money on a backup QB.

They only see the risk, not the payoff of being young and cheap back there. Rest assured, if money was spent to bring in Hasselback, we would have wailing that there is no money to sign core Packer FAs.



I'm on record...multiple times, in saying in was a HUGE error by MM to start Tolzien over Flynn against Minnesota. Started a thread the week before suggesting that.

That cost us IMO the game and that is on the Packers staff.

Didn't call for Hasselbeck; in fact if I was polled earlier this year I would have been in the who really cares who are backup is because odds are Rodgers won't get hurt again.

But IMO MM reacted poorly after it happened. Tolzien to me never stood out in College. He ws smart and he needed several years to absolutely master the offense before being above average. The same IMO would hold true in Green Bay.

I didn't want to see him on Game Day until next year. He needs that mastery to have a chance. He was never the guy.....ever.

[Bretsky]

He has failed to secure a starting job with the Packers, the Seahawks, the Raiders and the Bills. He has started so few games that his record doesn't make much of a dent in that fact, but he is 2-3 in his starts. His career passer rating is 87.4. Its 81.4 this year in Green Bay.

He is so well thought of by the Packer staff that they avoided signing him twice before bringing him in when Wallace was hurt and they were down to one healthy QB.

It is sometimes said that there are not really 32 starting quality QBs in the League. He is 33rd or perhaps lower.

As I said he is a bad starter, but OK for a backup.


Agree with you here; call a spade a spade. Matt Flynn is an avergage backup. He'd probably win 40% of our games with this team. It's hard for me to say he failed to be a starter in Green Bay or Seattle though. He had no chance to beat our studs like AROD or Russell. Then in Oakland their OL was absolute junk, and he never had a lenghty shot in Buffalo as they have their guy.

With that being said, he's a middle of the road backup QB who may have a roached shoulder. We need AROD back or our playaoff dreams....and yes this year might be a dream....will be done in a hurry

[pbmax]

I'm on record...multiple times, in saying in was a HUGE error by MM to start Tolzien over Flynn against Minnesota. Started a thread the week before suggesting that.

That cost us IMO the game and that is on the Packers staff.

Didn't call for Hasselbeck; in fact if I was polled earlier this year I would have been in the who really cares who are backup is because odds are Rodgers won't get hurt again.

But IMO MM reacted poorly after it happened. Tolzien to me never stood out in College. He ws smart and he needed several years to absolutely master the offense before being above average. The same IMO would hold true in Green Bay.

I didn't want to see him on Game Day until next year. He needs that mastery to have a chance. He was never the guy.....ever.

I think part of his success is the fact that he was unscouted versus Minny. In fact, both Tolzien's appearance and Flynn's (not so much Wallace's relief appearance) were testaments to surprising the opponents.

I do agree that starting Flynn with no prep might have produced a better effort the following week. He gets the practice reps and moves his acclimation ahead a week.

Cowboys aren't going to be a great test of Flynn, though it will be on the road. Flynn will not meet the equivalent of Detroit's defense on the road until Chicago and that defense would need to be playing better to match the effectiveness of the Lions T-Day effort.

[run pMc]

I can't say how he is as a starter. He hasn't had enough sample size to be sure. I think he could be a bottom 1/3 starter in this league. Lead a solid team to 10-6. I think he would lead a team to a record that resembled the talent. If he were to be starter in GB for an entire season I think 10-6 or 11-5 would be likely. I don't think they avoided bringing him in because of him, as much as 1) his salary and 2) not changing from tolzien too fast. When he cleared waivers and wallace was hurt we brought him in.

If he had been available at the beginning of the season at league minimum I think he would have been the backup then.

Flynn is a decent backup QB, but not a good starter QB. If everyone one O and D were healthy and he was the starting QB, I think this team would struggle to do better than 8-8. IMO he'd need a top 5 defense and solid ST (or a LOT of luck) to make noise the playoffs. A step up from Ponder, but he's no Russell Wilson. Maybe on par with Josh McCown, but without the benefit of a full offseason with the team.

Agree they didn't sign him earlier because he needed to clear waivers or else GB would've been on the hook for his salary. I don't have issues with TT waiting for him to clear, especially if that cap money goes to sign Shields or JJ.

[run pMc]

Cowboys aren't going to be a great test of Flynn, though it will be on the road. Flynn will not meet the equivalent of Detroit's defense on the road until Chicago and that defense would need to be playing better to match the effectiveness of the Lions T-Day effort.

Cowboys are a much better team at home, and they are playing to catch up with PHI. Is Flynn a Texas kid? I think it's a toss-up...Dallas' D didn't look very good. Will Lacy play? This would be a good game for Starks and one of the WR's to step up and the defense to play like they did vs. ATL 2nd half.

[ThunderDan]

Agree with you here; call a spade a spade. Matt Flynn is an avergage backup. He'd probably win 40% of our games with this team. It's hard for me to say he failed to be a starter in Green Bay or Seattle though. He had no chance to beat our studs like AROD or Russell. Then in Oakland their OL was absolute junk, and he never had a lenghty shot in Buffalo as they have their guy.

With that being said, he's a middle of the road backup QB who may have a roached shoulder. We need AROD back or our playaoff dreams....and yes this year might be a dream....will be done in a hurry

Go to call you out on the SEA comment.

Flynn was paid "good" starter money to go to SEA and be their starting QB. Wilson wasn't on the team when Flynn signed. Wilson "fell" to SEA and Wilson beat Flynn out in camp. Flynn was given every opportunity to win the starting position.

[ThunderDan]

The defense played well in Atlanta. Look, blaming TT for lack of an all pro back up QB is comical. Its reaching. Its desperate. Its sort of like the democrats blaming the GOP for not fixing THEIR healthcare law.

COME ON, KEEP THE POLITICAL SHIT IN FYI!!!!

THAT'S IS WHAT IT IS FOR!!!

[Cleft Crusty]

. Flynn will not meet the equivalent of Detroit's defense on the road until Chicago and that defense would need to be playing better to match the effectiveness of the Lions T-Day effort.


Have you been sniffing glue? Chicago's defense is nowhere near as good as Detroit's. Although, there is some truth in what you suggest in that Detroit's effectiveness depends a lot on whether they decide to actually play or not. Chicago has virtually nothing on Defense. Peppers takes off 2 of every three plays, McGuffin is a horrible as an end, and their secondary is awful. LBs are marginal without Briggs, and are only average with him.

Packers defense will get eaten alive by the current Chicago offense that is on an absolute roll, unless of course Cutler comes back and ruins the whole thing.

[pbmax]

Have you been sniffing glue? Chicago's defense is nowhere near as good as Detroit's. Although, there is some truth in what you suggest in that Detroit's effectiveness depends a lot on whether they decide to actually play or not. Chicago has virtually nothing on Defense. Peppers takes off 2 of every three plays, McGuffin is a horrible as an end, and their secondary is awful. LBs are marginal without Briggs, and are only average with him.

Packers defense will get eaten alive by the current Chicago offense that is on an absolute roll, unless of course Cutler comes back and ruins the whole thing.

Hey let's leave my personal life out of this.

I meant only to suggest that the Bears D is less than the Lions NOW. I know Briggs is not back yet but am unsure about Tillman or others so I feel unqualified to say for certain. Peppers always seems to get up for the Packers.

And the Bears are the only capable D left on the road schedule. Pittsburgh is both a shell of itself and at Lambeau.

[Cleft Crusty]

Hey let's leave my personal life out of this.

I meant only to suggest that the Bears D is less than the Lions NOW. I know Briggs is not back yet but am unsure about Tillman or others so I feel unqualified to say for certain. Peppers always seems to get up for the Packers.

And the Bears are the only capable D left on the road schedule. Pittsburgh is both a shell of itself and at Lambeau.

OK, OK, so maybe it was only Elmer's School Glue.

[woodbuck27]

When TT came he drafted football players until he rebuilt the roster mostly. Now he is gambling more on hitting a homerun on a talent. I prefer the first method as you can improve ones physical skills easier than attitude/instinct. I wish he would get back to drafting football players.

Wow..this is a long post...make a sandwich. Grab a beer. :grin:

I'm just now reviewing this thread and will respond to this and maybe? I already have... yet here goes:

TT has as a main approach to draft the life blood for the team and develop that over 2-4 years time.

It's clear the Green Bay Packers as a team isn't as strong as we may have imagined RE:

(a) The loss of Aaron Rodgers to injury as one very heavily weighted factor (see backup QB's >>> see backup @ Center and disruption to the OL in terms of OL depth. IMO the OL was thin in terms of both roster spots and talent/depth (See Marshall Newhouse) from the outset of this season.

and/or

(b) the accumulative effect of the adversity we've seen the team have to try to absorb this season or the loss of AR, Bryan Bulaga, Randall Cobb, Casey Hayward, and the cumulative effect added to that in terms of all the games lost to injury and others like CM III and Sam Shields, Nick Perry and James Jones etc.

You prefer that TT draft pure football players. ie ?? Lunch pail style Pro's that just get it done week in and out. ??

I agree with you as there are so few CM III's available on a 'We sure hit that one right and believed we would'. That's far from the anology in retrospect of 'the Draft is simply a crap shoot'.

I've studied Ted Thompson and Mike McCarthy fairly closely. I've had to decide to give both of then all the respect they deserve and not simply exercise an option of being 'a constant boo bird' and those guys. I know that 'the TRUTH' is always reached. I believe first in the health of the team in terms of any real chance to be competitive with the best in the NFL.

My concerns are real:

a) The team 'only' has so much of an open window to win another Super Bowl with a GREAT QB or Aaron Rodgers.

b) With a 100% Aaron Rodgers the Packers won't win that Super Bowl with the team's defense we see now or with a DEFENSIVE EFFICIENCY RATING of YES GET THIS: 31st

C) If the teams defense is ranked where it is at present and that's shockingly bad. The ST's effort better rank right up there and 'in fact' the Packers are a worst in the NFCN division 21st Ranking on ST's.

The question we must then ask ourselves is why is it that way? Why?:

I) If it's coaching and scheme? Then TT and MM must make a big change in the team's coaching in this off season. That decision must be made one to three weeks ago. Certainly not the day after the season ends. Why? The loss of Aaron Rodgers has certainly exposed the quality of the team and the success of TT and MM and his coaching staff to work with what TT supplies them.

Clearly the Packers roster needs a lot more and at most positions. That doesn't get done on any basis of .... soon.

II ) If it's roster personnel then TT and MM must cut a load of deadwood this off season and re-build where necessary with an objective to building back momentum in maybe two more years's time.

I believe that the Green Bay Packers have realistically shifted into a new gear. Their in the time to weigh it all mode... and everyone is playing for their job. If I'm wrong I shouldn't be.

Last weekend the Green Bay Packers and Packer Coach's and (even Ted Thompson) received *** BOO's from Packer fans at Lambeau Field.

Mike McCarthy ( the Ohh so naïve one !?) acted as if he was surprized. He was surprized !?? *** Why was Mike McCarthy surprized?

Is MM really that out of touch or has he that big of ego to not realize where his team was at the end of the first half Vs Atlanta?

It was certainly hit the 'all systems go' button... Mike.

The Packer team and MM and TT all certainly deserved those BOO's. I'm not a fan that could possibly BOO my team. Normally that is boorish and makes little sense but not last Sunday. If the Packer team and MM and TT ever received a wake up call it came in the form of those BOO's.

Fans are not going to HOO HUM a 1-3-1 record and in the next game be able to suck up the stinking performance from the Packers in the first half of that Atlanta game. The BOO's said clearly:

The Fans have had enough. The Packer fan wants to win...again...now and isn't going to excuse the 'no Aaron Rodgers excuse'. Especially against a team ranked as low as the Atlanta Falcons. Enough was in effect and ... just that ....or enough. The Green Bay Packer fans were at Lambeau Field to cheer the Aaron Rodgers deprived Green Bay Packers Vs the Atlanta Falcons (a warm weather team) that came within a wisker of driving a steak into the Packers collective ass's.

Did that team or MM and his coach's understand all that was in stake in that game? Down what? 21-10 at the half and having just made an (arguably) senseless offensive call that hobbled his RB. MM cannot understand or is surprized at the BOO"s.

That takes the cake and that HC.

Does he understand that the window for the Green Bay Packers and Aaron Rodgers to win their next Super Bowl is closing? if so has he discussed that with >>> TT or TT >>> MM?

I say they have a mess on their hands. I say they have a bad defense and maybe the worst I've seen in 30 yrs. It's clearly in the chalk and over there >>> the chalk board. These are far smarter football people than I am. I see it and I 'll keep paying attention to see if they see it. I'll do all in my power to help with any discussion aimed at a consensus of Packerrats arriving at >>> seeing it.

So onwards we go with all manners of hope or not after a slim one point come from behind performance from the Matt Flynn led offense and the Packers. The Green bay Packers defeated the lowly Atlanta Falcons by one lousy point. Isn't that great ! :whist: No it wasn't great and it was very much luck that gave the Packers that win. Do you recall all the Falcon dropped pass's?

If that secondary doesn't clue in @ Dallas that Packer secondary gets eaten alive by a very desperate for a BIG WIN QB...Tony Romo. There's no way that Tony Romo must lose that game. It will take an entire team effort on behalf of the Green Bay Packers to deny Tony Romo in his house.

Yes it sure is. I believed we would see a Packer win in Week 14. Not a tremendous faith, yet, real faith.

This week we play the NFL team with the 30th ranked 'D'. The Packers have the 31st Ranked 'D'.

Dallas has the 8th Ranked 'O Vs the Packers 10th Ranked 'O'.

How do we measure Vs the Cowboys on ST's:

The Dallas Cowboys have the 8th ranked ST's and the Green Bay Packers the 21st Ranked ST's.

We play the Boys in their house.

It's a franchise QB or Tony Romo Vs a questionable backup quality QB in Matt Flynn.

If I could I'd ask MM and TT:

What are you doing about it all men? Do you understand the true gravity of it all men?

I want to see the team I love deliver on what TT and MM have tried to sell me the packer fan that team as being. Certainly not a bottom feeding team without Aaron Rodgers. Certainly not at best a 6-7 win team in the NFL.

If their team doesn't win more I want TT and MM to act accordingly this off season to make all necessary repairs and do the best they can to refit the team. I cannot simply stomach anymore lame excuses. Listen to Mike McCarthy use anymore worn out sound bites. Just do all necessary to win men...just win.

GO PACK GO !

[woodbuck27]

Have you been sniffing glue? Chicago's defense is nowhere near as good as Detroit's. Although, there is some truth in what you suggest in that Detroit's effectiveness depends a lot on whether they decide to actually play or not. Chicago has virtually nothing on Defense. Peppers takes off 2 of every three plays, McGuffin is a horrible as an end, and their secondary is awful. LBs are marginal without Briggs, and are only average with him.

Packers defense will get eaten alive by the current Chicago offense that is on an absolute roll, unless of course Cutler comes back and ruins the whole thing.

Detroits 'D' = 14th and da Bears have the 19th Ranked 'D'. Looking more at trhe NFCN Minny's 'D' is ranked 27th. Pulling up the rear in the NFCN

the Packers 'have'.... ahh are ranked the next to worst defense or 31st.

I do like the Bears offense with JM and agree that jay Cutler offers to them 'only' a liability. I'm a big Marc Trestman fan and for the life of me I know he's loyal and respectful to his players but Cutler in again over Josh Mac makes no sense to me.

It's not really enen there though.

We are going to get torched in Dallas as they rate higher than us across the board>>> On 'O' and 'D' and ST's the GREEN BAY PACKERS are ranked below the Dallas Cowboys. That's a lot to overcome in their house.

Tony Romo is a franchise QB and he'll be certainly ready to end our season come Sunday. Matt Flynn is at best a backup with moxy.

We do get them on a short week.

It's one week at a time Pack fans. I cannot look beyond the Boys.

MM certainly isn't looking beyond Dallas unless he's got an over abundance of energy and some to waste.

[Bretsky]

Go to call you out on the SEA comment.

Flynn was paid "good" starter money to go to SEA and be their starting QB. Wilson wasn't on the team when Flynn signed. Wilson "fell" to SEA and Wilson beat Flynn out in camp. Flynn was given every opportunity to win the starting position.



Not sure how much you are calling me out. My assertion is that Russell Wilson had far superior talent to Matt Flynn.....as a rookie and as a senior in college. This comes form a guy who admired Russell Wilson as well as any player....except for Ron Dayne...in College football (you know I bleed Badger). Talent wise, Flynn stood no chance to beat our Russell.

[pbmax]

Not sure how much you are calling me out. My assertion is that Russell Wilson had far superior talent to Matt Flynn.....as a rookie and as a senior in college. This comes form a guy who admired Russell Wilson as well as any player....except for Ron Dayne...in College football (you know I bleed Badger). Talent wise, Flynn stood no chance to beat our Russell.

Not sure about that level of surety at draft time. There is always a chance that the QB you hope drops to the third round is gone.

They had to be ready to start Flynn. I think he had a legit shot even if you believe subsequent events made it a longshot.

[bobblehead]

COME ON, KEEP THE POLITICAL SHIT IN FYI!!!!

THAT'S IS WHAT IT IS FOR!!!

I was merely using a real world analogy.

[bobblehead]

so I feel unqualified to say for certain..

This has never stopped anyone on packerrats, so no reason for you to hold back.

[esoxx]

I was merely using a real world analogy.

He lives in Madison. Give him a break.

[woodbuck27]

He lives in Madison. Give him a break.

This isn't aimed at you ThunderDan. Your a struggling Pro Pickem player. :mrgreen:

Living in Madison.

Is that as in...Maaa disss ouunnn?

Back home in Saint John, New Brunswick (once having the indistinction of the most $millionaires$ of any community in Canada per capita...) there's this sub where a lot of the more affluent resssiiide ...and a lot of 'old Money' ..'Youuu know' ... and it's named Rothesay.

Ohh there's some normal folks living there as well.

We normal folk call it ... Roouuthhh saayyy. . . . You know. With your chin in the air....and best 'English' accent.

http://www.rothesay.ca/

[woodbuck27]

Where is Ted Thompson ?

[Pugger]

Where is Ted Thompson ?

Probably on the road scouting college players in the upcoming bowl games.

[George Cumby]

Where is Ted Thompson ?

If he told you, he'd have to kill you.

[woodbuck27]

If he told you, he'd have to kill you.

I hate that. :whist:

[woodbuck27]

Probably on the road scouting college players in the upcoming bowl games.

If that's the case I hope he gets it better this draft **.

Do you think he knows that we need?:

On Defense:

DT; ILB ; ** S (where are they TT? Put that on your shopping list please ) and CB (Sam Shields an UFA and TW $expensive$ Vs Value)

On Offense:

C; TE and maybe a WR (UFA James Jones)

GO PACKERS !

[bobblehead]

He lives in Madison. Give him a break.

Huh?? I live in Las Vegas, though i was lost in Madison 2 days ago.

[woodbuck27]

Huh?? I live in Las Vegas, though i was lost in Madison 2 days ago.

Is Vegas as exciting as it seems?

RE: Madison, Wisconsin

Does it ever get that joke?:

Ala.... "I spend a week in Madison visiting for a doctors appointment one afternoon last summer."

It looks like a lovely place to me.