When did the Green Bay Packers Defense begin it's decline? Specifics and solutions?

[woodbuck27]

When did the Green Bay Packers Defense begin it's decline? Specifics and solutions?

I posted this on another thread today and then realized that this information might better serve us Packer fans if it's the origin of another thread:

Green Bay Packers Defensive Decline History and Reasons Unspecified:

The best performance by any Packer 'D' in the Ted Thompson...Mike McCarthy

Era: * At the end of the 2008 season * when it was allowing just 284 Y/G[/COLOR.

How good was that defense? In comparison that Packer defense compared favorably to the top ranked defenses in the NFL today:

i) The Seattle Seahawks @ nearly 280 Y/G

ii) The Carolina Panthers @ 296 Y/G.

It's not been the same since the beginning of the 2009 season and frankly the Green Bay Packer defense has been suffering severe fallout. In a state of severe decline recovering to something better only to regress again.

Specifically:

That increasing decline in the Packer defense reached a peak (maybe? surprisingly) of almost *** 412 Y/G at the end of the 2010 season. That ***decline compared to * is [COLOR="#FF0000"]a
decline of a whopping .

Yes ! A decline of nearly 45%.

That clearly places exclamation mark (s) after the name

Aaron Rodgers !!!

Where does that decline from when the TT & MM Era 'D' measured best, measure today?

Today the Packer 'D' is measured as allowing 376 Y/G

or positioned in that decline I refer to at 32 %.

As a member here I cannot offer any consolation to those of you who are possibly confused about the reason (s) for the recurring decline in the Packer defense. I simply realize the immensity of the problem. I will participate in trying
to offer some strategy that Ted Thompson and Mike McCarthy and his coaching staff may well employ. Of course as the fan (s) frustration isn't out of the question. Neither is a state of consolation to or absolute contentment.

It's clear that the Packer defense has declined to such a proportion that many here at Packerats are at a loss to know where to begin in terms of some solution. A severe decline to where the yards allowed on defense has contributed to the Packer points for being <<< less than >>> the points against or points allowed by the Packer defense.

A study of Toxic Differential reveals that at present the Green Bay Packers measure at -3 and all of that on the Turn Over Differential. The Team... scores a zero in terms of the Big Play Differential. That places the team in the 15th slot or 'just' OK.

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/toxic-differential/2013/

What have we seen of late in terms of any success?

We have watched the Green Bay Packers mount amazing to increasingly amazing comeback's. Amazing comebacks that gave the team 2 wins by a single point margin of victory and a tie. With the state of our defense overall; I'm
concerned that those amazing comebacks won't hold any water in terms of the teams future success.

The Packer defense RANKS 26th Overall.

The Packer defense RANKS 22nd Vs the Pass.

The Packer defense RANKS 25th against the run.

The Packer defense surrenders more points that it's offense scores;

giving up a 21st Ranked 25.9 Points/Game.


a) What is the reason for this serious dilemma we as Packer

fans see clearly with the teams defense?

b) Why has the Packer defense continued in decline (yes);

but moreso concerning. - To severely decline over the past now FIVE (5) seasons?

i) Is it as easy as pointing to 'an impossible to overcome', state of adversity?

ii) Is it the quality of player talent /competency on the teams roster, moreso measured in terms of depth?

III) Is it an outright overall failure in Ted Thompson and his Scouting teams ability to locate talent on 'D' for the draft?

iv) Does any strategy of drafting that dilutes the overall quality of the draft ( ie trading down) translate to poorer Roster depth?

V) May we associate TT's selection of high draft pics on the defensive side of the ball with misfortune thus added adversity?

vi) Does blame fall on Mike McCarthy? Does Mike McCarthy have the parts it really takes to be deemed a truly great NFL Head Coach?

VII) Again in reference to the Packers HC. Is it a specific failure in ways and manners to prepare and motivate the defensive players. To get those players 'FIRED UP' before games and to maintain that tempo or positive attitude; that otherwise may be pointed to as some degree of blame?

I feel sure of this and I'll sum it up here:

With the task the Green Bay Packers have had to deal with. Doing their best to deal with, since the injury to Aaron Rodgers. Much has been revealed. I believe that we should examine this in terms related to offering a sensible solution if such may be determined.

The blinds are now off the windows and we have a clear view inside the house.

As Packer fans here at Packerrats we owe it to the great tradition of the Green Bay Packers to try our level and sure best to determine the answers. To do so calmly and objectively as that challenge will serve us. :!:


GO PACK GO !

[Cleft Crusty]

Cumulative effect of injuries. Perry, Pickett and Jolly were a really nice run-stopping defensive front. All have been severely compromised. Matthew's injury (as well as other LBs) is obvious, so is Caper's refusal to move Matthews around (until second half of Dallas game) and take advantage of his skills, instead of running him into the best Tackle on every team, even though he can't fully use his hands to disengage.

[pittstang5]

When did the Green Bay Packers Defense begin it's decline?

When Nick Collins was lost - plain and simple.

[Cleft Crusty]

When did the Green Bay Packers Defense begin it's decline?

When Nick Collins was lost - plain and simple.

Well, if you're talking about their peak at the end of 2010, then the end began when Woodson broke his collar bone. I thought he was pretty much done after 2010 anyway, that just made it official. Losing Collins shortly into the next season quickly resulted in losing two huge playmakers in the defense, who have yet to be replaced. If Capers had any sense, he would have Neal, Perry and other backups man the OLB position and start moving Matthews all over the place in the "W" role. Still need to fill the Collins position; Burnett is not the answer.

[woodbuck27]

The Green Bay Packers - 2007 - Present... RE. Pts. For Vs. Pts. Allowed


Year..............Points For...............Points Allowed...........................Differential

2007.................27.2......................... 18.2................................+ 9.0

2008.................26.2......................... 23.8................................+ 2.4

2009.................28.8......................... 18.6................................+ 10.2

2010..................24.3........................ 15.0................................+ 9.3

2011.................35.0......................... 22.4................................+ 12.6

2012.................27.1......................... .21.0...............................+ 6.1

2013 ...............25.2...........................25.9 ..............................Neg. 0.7



PACKERS !

[MadScientist]

1) Loss of big time play makers (Woodson and Collins)
2) Decline of other players (Raji, Pickett, even Mathews to some extent)
3) No new top talent added (Peri, D Jones, Daniels, etc. have at best shown flashes, but no consistent great play)
4) Defense has been figured out. There have been times where other teams said things like 'We got the look we were expecting in that situation.'

Now #4 sounds like an indictment of Dom, but it might be a symptom caused by 1-3. Meaning Dom is not doing more creative play calling because he doesn't trust the players to make the plays needed. He's putting the defense in the position where it is less likely to screw up badly, but it increases the offenses chance to be moderately successful. We talk about coaches loosing their players, but here maybe a case of the players loosing their coach.

Keys to fixing this:
1) Draft better
2) Sign some mid-level FA's to cover some holes and give better flexibility for the draft (the Packers don't have the cap to go big, and should not worry about comp picks, at least this year).
3) New DC. Even if it is the players more than Dom, a new DC may have different schemes that better fit the Packers players. Also this would lead to new unscouted looks that may give them a boost for the next season, as long as the DC is competent.

[woodbuck27]

1) Loss of big time play makers (Woodson and Collins)
2) Decline of other players (Raji, Pickett, even Mathews to some extent)
3) No new top talent added (Peri, D Jones, Daniels, etc. have at best shown flashes, but no consistent great play)
4) Defense has been figured out. There have been times where other teams said things like 'We got the look we were expecting in that situation.'

Now #4 sounds like an indictment of Dom, but it might be a symptom caused by 1-3. Meaning Dom is not doing more creative play calling because he doesn't trust the players to make the plays needed. He's putting the defense in the position where it is less likely to screw up badly, but it increases the offenses chance to be moderately successful. We talk about coaches loosing their players, but here maybe a case of the players loosing their coach.

Keys to fixing this:
1) Draft better
2) Sign some mid-level FA's to cover some holes and give better flexibility for the draft (the Packers don't have the cap to go big, and should not worry about comp picks, at least this year).
3) New DC. Even if it is the players more than Dom, a new DC may have different schemes that better fit the Packers players. Also this would lead to new unscouted looks that may give them a boost for the next season, as long as the DC is competent.

Excellent post.

Repped

[mission]

As far as this season goes -- when Brad Jones came back from his injury and Lattimore went to the bench.

It's a pretty clear cutoff that I just have no idea how none of the staff has done anything about.

[run pMc]

Well, if you're talking about their peak at the end of 2010, then the end began when Woodson broke his collar bone. I thought he was pretty much done after 2010 anyway, that just made it official. Losing Collins shortly into the next season quickly resulted in losing two huge playmakers in the defense, who have yet to be replaced. If Capers had any sense, he would have Neal, Perry and other backups man the OLB position and start moving Matthews all over the place in the "W" role. Still need to fill the Collins position; Burnett is not the answer.

+1

Woodbuck's chart provides some support of this. The 2009 and 2010 defenses were pretty good. Losing Collins and Woodson hurt, as did losing Cullen Jenkins on the DL. Despite this year's sack numbers, the pass rush has been inconsistent. Agree Burnett is not the answer.

Injuries have decimated the roster, especially on the offense. If the defense was giving up 21 ppg this year (same as last) they'd likely have 9 wins.

There will be changes on the defensive side of the ball this offseason. Hopefully those changes are improvements.

[red]

you can only use the injury excuse for so long imo

last year we talked about how that was a horrible year injury wise

the year before that we talked about how we were destroyed by injuries

even the super bowl year we were "bitten by the injury bug"

maybe at some point we need to start saying "shit happens" and we have problems adapting when it does

[Joemailman]

you can only use the injury excuse for so long imo

last year we talked about how that was a horrible year injury wise

the year before that we talked about how we were destroyed by injuries

even the super bowl year we were "bitten by the injury bug"

maybe at some point we need to start saying "shit happens" and we have problems adapting when it does

If you're talking just about the defense, I agree. The defense is fairly healthy and has still seen its performance decline in the 2nd half of the season. It would be hard to argue though that losing their starting QB, arguably top WR, and starting TE hasn't prevented the offense from playing up to their normal standards. It has. That's what makes the play of the defense so frustrating. When Rodgers went down and the team needed the defense to step up, their level of play declined.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The Packers have never recovered from Tim Harris bolting to San Fran

[woodbuck27]

The Packers have never recovered from Tim Harris bolting to San Fran

Holy Cow...who would ever claim your not the sharpest knife in the rack !?

I've been looking back also for something anywhere significant that was a catalyst for future Green Bay Packer teams and bad to mediocre defenses.

Your going with The departure of 4th Round draft pick LB Tim Harris Green Bay Packers 1986-90 >>> San Francisco.

I'm looking for something significant that happened after the 2004 Season.

Something that happened in 'the off season' ... 2004 - 2005 seasons....on into the 2005 season.

PACKERS !

[woodbuck27]

you can only use the injury excuse for so long imo

last year we talked about how that was a horrible year injury wise

the year before that we talked about how we were destroyed by injuries

even the super bowl year we were "bitten by the injury bug"

maybe at some point we need to start saying "shit happens" and we have problems adapting when it does

Maybe the Packer Scouting team might place some emphasis on draft candidates/prospects that have something called grit or toughness inside of them. We used to call these fellas 'Real Men'.

That GM and Scouting team might come up with a measurement chart called something like.... The Whuss Factor Chart.

Doesn't sensibility point to drafting a MAN who would be a proper fit for a Pro level 'football team'.

Ohh scrap that idea. Ted Thompson 'always drafts'..... BPA.

Well ..... I'll keep trying.

[ThunderDan]

I'm looking for something significant that happened after the 2004 Season.

Something that happened in 'the off season' ... 2004 - 2005 seasons....on into the 2005 season.

PACKERS !

BF said he might retire and didn't show up at training camp for the first time?

[woodbuck27]

Holy Cow...who would ever claim your not the sharpest knife in the rack !?

I've been looking back also for something anywhere significant that was a catalyst for future Green Bay Packer teams and bad to mediocre defenses.

Your going with The departure of 4th Round draft pick LB Tim Harris Green Bay Packers 1986-90 >>> San Francisco.

I'm looking for something significant that happened after the 2004 Season.

Something that happened in 'the off season' ... 2004 - 2005 seasons....on into the 2005 season.

PACKERS !

The Green Bay Packers 2004 Season:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Green_Bay_Packers_season

** A weak Draft. Remember that one?

" With the 25th pick of the 2004 NFL Draft, the Packers select cornerback Ahmad Carroll from the University of Arkansas."

and did that draft ever recover?

The season began badly with loss's in four of their first five games. The Packers won their next six games (7-4) and finishing at 10-6. First in the NFCN.

The Packers defeated the Minnesota Vikings twice by identical 34-31 scores in the regular season. They squared off in 'a Wild Card playoff game' the Packers lost to the Vikings 31-17 @ Lambeau Field.

The Vikings were fast out of the gate and IMO Brett Favre played poorly in that game. That was a bad day for the Packers et moi.

The PACKER DEFENSE:

** The defense allowed 21 or less points in nine (9) of the regular scheduled games averaging 14.44 Points against in those games.

** In the 16 game schedule the Packers 'D' gave up *** an avg. of 23.75 P/G. Five times teams scored over 30 points against that Packer 'D' in the regular season.

** The team was blown out in two games by scores of 48-27 Tennessee and 47-17 Philadelphia. They lost 45-31 to Indy.

So that was the 2004 Season as it appears from the outside.

*** That Avg of 23.8 PA/G would drop over the course of the next three seasons but that same number of 23.8 PA/G was back in 2008.

That number of 23.8 PA/G was exceeded 'only' this season and presently sits at 25.9 PA/G.

GO PACKERS !

[run pMc]

The Packers have never recovered from Tim Harris bolting to San Fran

And here I thought it was because they let Bryce Paup sign with the Bills.

[TravisWilliams23]

I'd say 2011. That off season they lost Cullen Jenkins to FA, Tramon Williams hurt his arm/shoulder the 1st game in 2011 and Nick Collins was lost forever after the neck injury. They never really replaced Jenkins pass rushing ability, Tramon has been mostly horse shit since his monstrous contract and injury and they haven't come close to anyone resembling Nick. Woodson was also near the end of his stellar career. That's 4 pretty damn good players to not count on and I don't think many teams, if any, could expect to overcome a loss as great as that.

[woodbuck27]

I got side tracked RE: my study and this today.

Hopefully I'll get back to this or focus on this question again soon.

GO PACK GO !

[Pugger]

And here I thought it was because they let Bryce Paup sign with the Bills.

Letting him go was a big mistake. :-( Isn't he an assistant coach in the league somewhere today?

[CaptainKickass]

Letting him go was a big mistake. :-( Isn't he an assistant coach in the league somewhere today?

I thought so. I heard his name on a telecast recently but can't recall what it was exactly. Wiki says this:


On March 5, 2013, Paup resigned at Green Bay Southwest and is entering his first season as the defensive line coach at the University of Northern Iowa.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryce_Paup

[Joemailman]

As far as this season goes -- when Brad Jones came back from his injury and Lattimore went to the bench.

It's a pretty clear cutoff that I just have no idea how none of the staff has done anything about.

So is Lattimore the new Desmond Bishop? Bishop didn't really get his chance until Nick Barnett went down with a serious injury. He then played better than Barnett had been. Not that I'd wish for Jones to get hurt or anything...

[Rodgers12]

Wrote this rant at the start of the 2nd half of the Packer-Cowboy game. Almost post it then but the D started playing inspired football. If the D plays like it did in the 2nd half of that game the rest of the way, it's gonna be, well, inspiring.

Anyway, here is the rant if anyone wants to read it. Keep in mind that this is a rant.

The 2013 Green Bay Packers defense is a disgrace to defenses all over the world, in the present, in the past, in the future, in 2-D, in 3-D and in 4-D.

The players are mediocre and milksops. The coaches have no clue how to coach. And Ted Thompson, well, he's incompetent.

The Claymaker is the only dido on the team worth an inspiration. And even The Claymaker can be neutralized. There's no shutdown corner, hotshot inside linebacker, mofo safety, bona fide playmate opposite the Claymaker or J.J Watt on the team.

This defense is so bad, it would get run over and eaten out alive by an army of turkeys - literally.

If all the merry fat men that call themselves defensive linemen were excreting together in one tiny toilet bowl, they would fail on a grand scale to clog that tiny toilet. They can't stop the run, much less clog a toilet.

A.J. Hawk and Brad Jones are the worst starting inside linebackers in a 3-4 in football at any level. Hawk's secret to avoiding the injury bug is avoiding contact whenever possible. When he actually hits someone, it's usually 7-10 yards down the field. They said that about Nick Barnett, but in truth, it's all about Hawk. Hawk also can't cover and blitz worth a lick. What's up with zigzaging through a blitz? Just dash through a gap and attack the QB like a wracking ball!!!

(Why can't I stop listening to Miley Cyrus' Wrecking Ball? Maybe it's the vid.)

Jones is a poor-man Hawk. The coaches decision to keep playing Jones over a physical samurai in Jamari Lattimore indicates that they should all be canned.

Morgan Burnett and M.D. Jennings are frauds. They can't cover and they miss more tackles than the bits on Tecmo Bowl vs. Bo Jackson. Their backups aren't any better. Banjo looks like a Peprah clone. Richardson has got to be the slowest safety to ever play the game. McMillan? Even with his 93 speed, he sucks on Madden.

Sam Shields and Tramon Williams have shown flashes of greatness, but they are the mothers of inconsistency. Neither one of them is a shutdown corner. Micah Hyde would be stuck on someone's practice squad if he weren't playing for the Packers. Hyde lacks coverage skill. How long must Thompson wait for House? How long must Thompson pay for House? The rest of the CBs on the roster are milksops.

Anything less than a Super Bowl victory, someone's head needs to roll. The layman will blame Thompson and Thompson deserves the blame. But the Polar Bear has a 'get-out-of-jail-free' card with his lone Super Bowl victory, which is starting to look fluky nowadays. My guess is Capers will be the scapegoat: sacrificed so that the moon will shine again and the sun will rise again in this land of melancholia.

[KYPack]

Wrote this rant at the start of the 2nd half of the Packer-Cowboy game. Almost post it then but the D started playing inspired football. If the D plays like it did in the 2nd half of that game the rest of the way, it's gonna be, well, inspiring.

Anyway, here is the rant if anyone wants to read it. Keep in mind that this is a rant.

The 2013 Green Bay Packers defense is a disgrace to defenses all over the world, in the present, in the past, in the future, in 2-D, in 3-D and in 4-D.

The players are mediocre and milksops. The coaches have no clue how to coach. And Ted Thompson, well, he's incompetent.

The Claymaker is the only dido on the team worth an inspiration. And even The Claymaker can be neutralized. There's no shutdown corner, hotshot inside linebacker, mofo safety, bona fide playmate opposite the Claymaker or J.J Watt on the team.

This defense is so bad, it would get run over and eaten out alive by an army of turkeys - literally.

If all the merry fat men that call themselves defensive linemen were excreting together in one tiny toilet bowl, they would fail on a grand scale to clog that tiny toilet. They can't stop the run, much less clog a toilet.

A.J. Hawk and Brad Jones are the worst starting inside linebackers in a 3-4 in football at any level. Hawk's secret to avoiding the injury bug is avoiding contact whenever possible. When he actually hits someone, it's usually 7-10 yards down the field. They said that about Nick Barnett, but in truth, it's all about Hawk. Hawk also can't cover and blitz worth a lick. What's up with zigzaging through a blitz? Just dash through a gap and attack the QB like a wracking ball!!!

(Why can't I stop listening to Miley Cyrus' Wrecking Ball? Maybe it's the vid.)

Jones is a poor-man Hawk. The coaches decision to keep playing Jones over a physical samurai in Jamari Lattimore indicates that they should all be canned.

Morgan Burnett and M.D. Jennings are frauds. They can't cover and they miss more tackles than the bits on Tecmo Bowl vs. Bo Jackson. Their backups aren't any better. Banjo looks like a Peprah clone. Richardson has got to be the slowest safety to ever play the game. McMillan? Even with his 93 speed, he sucks on Madden.

Sam Shields and Tramon Williams have shown flashes of greatness, but they are the mothers of inconsistency. Neither one of them is a shutdown corner. Micah Hyde would be stuck on someone's practice squad if he weren't playing for the Packers. Hyde lacks coverage skill. How long must Thompson wait for House? How long must Thompson pay for House? The rest of the CBs on the roster are milksops.

Anything less than a Super Bowl victory, someone's head needs to roll. The layman will blame Thompson and Thompson deserves the blame. But the Polar Bear has a 'get-out-of-jail-free' card with his lone Super Bowl victory, which is starting to look fluky nowadays. My guess is Capers will be the scapegoat: sacrificed so that the moon will shine again and the sun will rise again in this land of melancholia.

This.

This happy horseshit is your schtick.

I'll discuss this point further in your execution thead.

You want a blindfold or can you take it like a man?

[woodbuck27]

Hey Rodgers12:

A Colorful observation.

I'm guessing that Mike Daniels may have received a passing grade?

Questions:

a) Was that too great an assumption?

b) So what short of any move RE: Ted Thompson and Mike McCarthy do you assess as necessary to help start a clean up of the defense?

GO PACK GO !

[Rodgers12]

Hey Rodgers12:

A Colorful observation.

I'm guessing that Mike Daniels may have received a passing grade?

Questions:

a) Was that too great an assumption?

b) So what short of any move RE: Ted Thompson and Mike McCarthy do you assess as necessary to help start a clean up of the defense?

GO PACK GO !

Daniels is a good player but he's not J.J. Watt. Imagine Matthrews and Watt on the same defense.

Not sure if this has been discussed previously, but lets talk about what Thompson and McCarthy did not do prior to the season.

They let Woodson walk without a capable replacement. Wood was open to restructuring his contract or taking a paycut.

They did not sign a veteran safety in free agency. There were plenty of seasoned fish in the pond who were/are better options than Jennings and McMillan. Goldson would've cost a lot of Benjamins, but the NFL salary cap can be cooked by any accounting major. Green Bay would've been a good place for Kerry Rhodes to play in and maybe to come out.

Thompson and McCarthy than compounded their failures in free agency by not drafting a safety. Young un, Matt Elam, was available when the Packers took Jones. Jones is playing, what, 10% of the defensive snaps? The universe might balance itself out, but I doubt Elam would've injured Cobb if he was wearing a Packer uniform.

They choose Brad Jones over Bishop. Jones has succeeded Hawk as the worst starting ILB in a 3-4 in the league. Even after the season started, Thompson had a chance to correct his error. Jon Beason was on the trade block.

Thompson did not address depth at the OLB position. It got so bad, an DE started playing OLB.

In sum, the defense lacks playmakers outside of The Claymaker. It is Thompson's job to find playmakers.

[pbmax]

They let Woodson walk without a capable replacement. Wood was open to restructuring his contract or taking a paycut.


Unless he is willing to coach, I don't think his paycut would be enough to justify bringing him back.

Wood was willing but if you can't catch anyone, all the willingness in the world goes out the window.

Its a fair point about not yet having a safety since Collins was hurt.

[Rodgers12]

Unless he is willing to coach, I don't think his paycut would be enough to justify bringing him back.

Wood was willing but if you can't catch anyone, all the willingness in the world goes out the window.

Its a fair point about not yet having a safety since Collins was hurt.

Yes, Wood is past his prime. Still would've been a better option than Jennings and McMillan. Plenty of other options better than Jennings and McMillan.

[woodbuck27]

Daniels is a good player but he's not J.J. Watt. Imagine Matthrews and Watt on the same defense.

Not sure if this has been discussed previously, but lets talk about what Thompson and McCarthy did not do prior to the season.

They let Woodson walk without a capable replacement. Wood was open to restructuring his contract or taking a paycut.

They did not sign a veteran safety in free agency. There were plenty of seasoned fish in the pond who were/are better options than Jennings and McMillan. Goldson would've cost a lot of Benjamins, but the NFL salary cap can be cooked by any accounting major. Green Bay would've been a good place for Kerry Rhodes to play in and maybe to come out.

Thompson and McCarthy than compounded their failures in free agency by not drafting a safety. Young un, Matt Elam, was available when the Packers took Jones. Jones is playing, what, 10% of the defensive snaps? The universe might balance itself out, but I doubt Elam would've injured Cobb if he was wearing a Packer uniform.

They choose Brad Jones over Bishop. Jones has succeeded Hawk as the worst starting ILB in a 3-4 in the league. Even after the season started, Thompson had a chance to correct his error. Jon Beason was on the trade block.

Thompson did not address depth at the OLB position. It got so bad, an DE started playing OLB.

In sum, the defense lacks playmakers outside of The Claymaker. It is Thompson's job to find playmakers.

I just read this and for the most part do agree with your thoughts. I was surprized that the safety spot wasn't addressed last off Season but we must assume that Packer Management needed one more season for a fair assessment of the youth at the FS/SS positions.

I posted a thread just recently I believe on the best Safeties in the NFL and those in the next tier and must follow up on that soon. Look for that for any input you see a need for there...THANKS.

An interesting view...on bringing in Kerry Rhodes. To say he could come out ...is to make an assumption/presumption of him being GAY.

After that I don't care how a man :jig: as long as he's lights out very decent at football. We need see some toughness back on the defense.

A Brad over a Bishop..really. I'm not in the Brad Jones fan club.

Matt Elam is ....looking pretty good in his Rookie season from the little I've been able to see of him. He's full of game or shall I write ..yea Cocky ! I feel that the the Packers need a new identity. That based or focused on TOUGHNESS ! Bringing FEAR to the opponent. Where did that go !?

The nice man image maybe is passé in the NFL. Get some 'almost Port Workers' on our side...tough men. Really tough men again. A little less swagger and a lot more hammer.

AJ Hawk.. I can give a mixed review of him. I like his Packer loyalty and well as it is he's the leading tackler (isn't he) and soon will become the leading tackler ALL TIME for the Green Bay Packer franchise.

We certainly have need on the 'o' too...ie C, TE, WR...but In feel that TT and his Scouting Dept. must assess really tough hard nosed defensive prospects. I want the best that TT can muster without trading down in the 2014 draft. It's for me... STOP watering the beer.

Later... and Thanks.

GO PACKERS !

[Zool]

Yes, Wood is past his prime. Still would've been a better option than Jennings and McMillan. Plenty of other options better than Jennings and McMillan.

2 words sum up your player evaluating skills.

Michael Huff. The sooner you figure out that you know nothing, the sooner you can start learning something.

[woodbuck27]

2 words sum up your player evaluating skills.

Michael Huff. The sooner you figure out that you know nothing, the sooner you can start learning something.

Zool ... with all respect:

** Can't we try harder to keep the personal feelings towords other posters out of this thread?

Maybe your just having a little fun but can't Rodgers12 ever live that 'Michael Huff' shot down? I'm simply trying to understand you man.

Your a Mod...isn't that ** what a Mod is supposed to do Zool? Maybe that's not the case @ Packerrats. If that's the case ignore this post. I'm about .... POSITIVE.

I'm hoping that this thread will give us a positive response.

A clear focus on what the Packers leadership 'might do' towards greatly improving the Green Bay Packers defense.

I hope all members will jump on board positively in this pursuit.

GO PACK....GO PACK GO !

[Pugger]

Daniels is a good player but he's not J.J. Watt. Imagine Matthrews and Watt on the same defense.

Not sure if this has been discussed previously, but lets talk about what Thompson and McCarthy did not do prior to the season.

They let Woodson walk without a capable replacement. Wood was open to restructuring his contract or taking a paycut.

They did not sign a veteran safety in free agency. There were plenty of seasoned fish in the pond who were/are better options than Jennings and McMillan. Goldson would've cost a lot of Benjamins, but the NFL salary cap can be cooked by any accounting major. Green Bay would've been a good place for Kerry Rhodes to play in and maybe to come out.

Thompson and McCarthy than compounded their failures in free agency by not drafting a safety. Young un, Matt Elam, was available when the Packers took Jones. Jones is playing, what, 10% of the defensive snaps? The universe might balance itself out, but I doubt Elam would've injured Cobb if he was wearing a Packer uniform.

They choose Brad Jones over Bishop. Jones has succeeded Hawk as the worst starting ILB in a 3-4 in the league. Even after the season started, Thompson had a chance to correct his error. Jon Beason was on the trade block.

Thompson did not address depth at the OLB position. It got so bad, an DE started playing OLB.

In sum, the defense lacks playmakers outside of The Claymaker. It is Thompson's job to find playmakers.

Sure, Watt is a wonderful player. Quite possibly the best defensive player in the league. But when you have the success we've had you don't draft high enough to be able to get players like this.

[Pugger]

Yes, Wood is past his prime. Still would've been a better option than Jennings and McMillan. Plenty of other options better than Jennings and McMillan.

What other players were available for us to actually sign or draft - besides maybe Elam - that were better than Jennings? McMillan was so awful he's no longer on the team.

[Cleft Crusty]

I doubt Elam would've injured Cobb if he was wearing a Packer uniform.

You forgot about training camp and family night. Have to have at least one season-ending injury in front of horrified families just trying to have fun on a sweltering August evening.

[Cleft Crusty]

2 words sum up your player evaluating skills.

Michael Huff. The sooner you figure out that you know nothing, the sooner you can start learning something.

I agree with Mr. Tank that Woodson would be a better option than Jeron McMillian. He certainly was last year. That being said, neither really belongs on an NFL roster. Woodson might have served well in the Donald Driver role this year as the senior guy keeping the locker room together, but he wanted to play.

[Cleft Crusty]

The sooner you figure out that you know nothing, the sooner you can start learning something.

that's a nice epigram/tweet. Clefty does puzzle over the internal contradiction however.

[ThunderDan]

The universe might balance itself out, but I doubt Elam would've injured Cobb if he was wearing a Packer uniform.



I think you are on to something here. If only TT had drafted Tashaun Gipson of the CLE Browns we would still have Finley.

I think GM all across the NFL are now going to think of players who might potentially hurt players on their team and draft said player to make sure his team is healthy.

That is so dumb my head hurts.

[pbmax]

I agree with Mr. Tank that Woodson would be a better option than Jeron McMillian. He certainly was last year. That being said, neither really belongs on an NFL roster. Woodson might have served well in the Donald Driver role this year as the senior guy keeping the locker room together, but he wanted to play.

Perhaps, but the cost would still have been prohibitive if you skill set is one step above McMillan-level.

[Cleft Crusty]

Perhaps, but the cost would still have been prohibitive if you skill set is one step above McMillan-level.

Indeed - he would have been a very expensive baby-sitter.

[woodbuck27]

Perhaps, but the cost would still have been prohibitive if you skill set is one step above McMillan-level.

Yes Charles Woodson is still making a good $chunk$ with Oakland:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9299967/charles-woodson-signs-oakland-raiders

:... Woodson's deal is worth a maximum of $4.3 million and includes a $700,000 signing bonus, ESPN's Josina Anderson reported.... "

[Zool]

Zool ... with all respect:

** Can't we try harder to keep the personal feelings towords other posters out of this thread?

Maybe your just having a little fun but can't Rodgers12 ever live that 'Michael Huff' shot down? I'm simply trying to understand you man.

Your a Mod...isn't that ** what a Mod is supposed to do Zool? Maybe that's not the case @ Packerrats. If that's the case ignore this post. I'm about .... POSITIVE.

I'm hoping that this thread will give us a positive response.

A clear focus on what the Packers leadership 'might do' towards greatly improving the Green Bay Packers defense.

I hope all members will jump on board positively in this pursuit.

GO PACK....GO PACK GO !

Woody, Tank is forever a troll. I can either choose to ignore him or not. Today I have chosen not. He's a constant problem for the reasons that many have stated. He fancies himself an expert on all things Mike Sherman and constantly trolls against TT, MM, and Rodgers. I have no interest in welcoming him back to the fold so that he can once again get himself banned for being an asshole.

[woodbuck27]

http://www.packersnews.com/article/20131205/PKR01/312050450/

Defense could be playing for Capers' job during season's final month

Dec. 5, 2013 | 14 Comments

PACKERS !

[woodbuck27]

Woody, Tank is forever a troll. I can either choose to ignore him or not. Today I have chosen not. He's a constant problem for the reasons that many have stated. He fancies himself an expert on all things Mike Sherman and constantly trolls against TT, MM, and Rodgers. I have no interest in welcoming him back to the fold so that he can once again get himself banned for being an asshole.

OK...That's your prerogative Zool.

I get there sometimes Packer fan. It's often in the best interests of the forum to take that action.

THE IGNORE OPTION:

Better than this.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT5MphieocriDYS2Kyv78WxrsDERINPu hdVHceIGtauVWbAvM4i8w

Much better than this.


https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTd5xjRlRK4KKkyDbTQA-mI-opP4ct3pIcPa6_o6ZOhB9bAl11hAg

[KYPack]

Nah Woody.

Zool is pissed because Tank jacked the thread.

The thread title is "When did the Green Bay Packers Defense begin it's decline? Specifics and solutions?"

It's not "Tank hates TT".

You want to like , give Tank a chance.

He's banned.

Like Mission says, when yer banned, yer banned

Enforce that ban or it doesn't mean anything.

Woody, the guy you are trying to help is killing you with his bullshit.

[woodbuck27]

If you read below you'll see how this opening connects to the Packers and football.

Maybe there are other Packerrats that share this passion.

I'm a big fan of 'Best Selling' author Michael Connelly. His Homicide Detective character Harry 'Hieronymus' Bosch is my all time favourite fictional character. I recommend the short story 'Switchblade', if you choose to get your feet wet... RE: Discovering Harry Bosch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Bosch

http://www.michaelconnelly.com/

Michael Connelly's fascinating character...Harry Bosch always says that the solution to the investigation is always discovered by carefully reading the 'Murder Book'. That's all gathered information of the specifics of the crime (murder) and all follow-up investigative work. No stones left unturned 'of course'.

Adapting that to the issues with the current Packer defense I offer you this Article written in the early off season for some NFL teams. I'll add this for your consideration. I believe that the secret to a successful future is often discovered by doing a proper inspection of the past.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/571459-dallas-cowboys-2011-defensive-coordinator-options-dom-capers

This article investigates the success of Packers DC Dom Capers and that of his disciples at that time.

Dom Capers disciples:

Vic Fangio ( Currently the DC of San Fran 49ers );

Greg Manusky (Currently the DC of the Indy Colts )

Paul Pasqualoni ( Recently... On Sept. 30, 2013 FIRED! HC of the University of Connecticut football team, )

All of the above promote and have chosen the 3-4 base for their defensive schemes.

Notes:

** Ideally front-seven players in the 3–4 are bigger as they need to defeat blocks more often in the running game.

** There are two major variations of the 3–4 defense related to coverage schemes on passing downs.

Seem simple? It's not simple. :smile:

Here's that article from back in early 2011. It's from bleacher Report but it's OK. I scanned it for any weapons and other potential hazards/threats.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/571459-dallas-cowboys-2011-defensive-coordinator-options-dom-capers

Dallas Cowboys 2011 Defensive Coordinator Options: Dom Capers?

By Jonathan Bales (Featured Columnist) on January 13, 2011

Comment woodbuck27:

Obviously that didn't shake down as the author suggested. Dom is still MM's man on 'D'.

I) Is Packer DC Dom Capers the problem? Maybe a communication issue between the DC and his coaching staff?

ii) Is it a case of the players not fitting the scheme ie in terms of talent/size.

iii) Maybe it's a case of not enough strength of leadership in the locker Rm. on the field, in games?

iV) Is it really simply and primarily an injury issue?

What else should we look at?

What I'm reading on this thread so far:

It's a lot on the loss, loss/decline of certain once strong contributors on the 'D' ie Nick Collins and Charles Woodson and did I see mention of losing DE Cullen Jenkins and all that after the end of Season 2010 Super Bowl win.

We will... get it all.

GO PACK ...GO PACKERS GO !

[woodbuck27]

Nah Woody.

Zool is pissed because Tank jacked the thread.

The thread title is "When did the Green Bay Packers Defense begin it's decline? Specifics and solutions?"

It's not "Tank hates TT".

You want to like , give Tank a chance.

He's banned.

Like Mission says, when yer banned, yer banned

Enforce that ban or it doesn't mean anything.

Woody, the guy you are trying to help is killing you with his bullshit.

That issue after my support for both sides is no longer my business KY.

I've simply decided that's best.

Have a nice day and weekend.

[Rodgers12]

I agree with Mr. Tank that Woodson would be a better option than Jeron McMillian. He certainly was last year. That being said, neither really belongs on an NFL roster. Woodson might have served well in the Donald Driver role this year as the senior guy keeping the locker room together, but he wanted to play.

Rand, Not sure many folks outside of Oakland have seen a full Raiders game but in Woodbuck's safety thread, Chris Wesseling, NFL expert, states that "Woodson has played better than expected after attracting little interest on the open market."

Not sure what that really means but that doesn't sound like a guy who should be riding the bench.

[Cleft Crusty]

Rand, Not sure many folks outside of Oakland have seen a full Raiders game but in Woodbuck's safety thread, Chris Wesseling, NFL expert, states that "Woodson has played better than expected after attracting little interest on the open market."

Not sure what that really means but that doesn't sound like a guy who should be riding the bench.

I once worked for the Rand Corporation, but otherwise I think you have the wrong guy.

[mraynrand]

Rand....

BRING BLACK DR. JOHN HOLMES, PH.D.!!!

[KYPack]

I once worked for the Rand Corporation, but otherwise I think you have the wrong guy.

I couldn't figure that shit out, either.

[woodbuck27]

Quote Originally Posted by Cleft Crusty View Post

I once worked for the Rand Corporation, but otherwise I think you have the wrong guy.

It's so complicated.

So so ... so complicated. No .... wait !

At times like this we can resort to ....... Boolean Algebra:

Identity Law:

(a) A + A = A

(b) A A = A

Eh!

[mraynrand]

Identity Law:

(a) A + A = A

(b) A A = A

Eh!

This really explains quite a lot.


I couldn't figure that shit out, either.


A is A. A is not B

Perhaps there could be a new law in logic named after wood buck: The law of contradiction.

[woodbuck27]

Profile on San Fran 49ers DC Vic Fangio.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vic_Fangio


Breaking Down The San Francisco 49ers (2011) Defense

By: Latif Masud  @THouseOfSpears on Oct 14 2011, 8:12 PM

http://www.prideofdetroit.com/2011/10/14/2490879/breaking-down-the-san-francisco-49ers-defense


Vic Fangio Profile and The Present as the San Fran 49ers DC:

http://www.49ers.com/team/coaches/Vic-Fangio/4d4f63d7-8abb-4cc0-8efd-0184e6796eb4

Comment woodbuck27:

Video : See 49ers DC Viv Fangio and schemes Vs various opponents . Located on the RHS paging down on the LINK just above.


San Francisco 49ers' Vic Fangio a straight shooter

By: Tim Kawakami ... Mercury News Columnist

Posted: 08/03/2013 04:10:37 PM PDT ... Updated: 08/03/2013 09:50:26 PM PDT

http://www.mercurynews.com/tim-kawakami/ci_23790881/kawakami-san-francisco-49ers-vic-fangio-straight-shooter

GO PACKERS !

[woodbuck27]

This really explains quite a lot.


mraynrand:

For a brief moment there I thought I was reading one of my 'Hells Angels Colllection' books.

Packerrats is an interesting village.

Identity Law:

(a) A + A = A

(b) A A = A


Well 'of course ' it does if applied correctly.

That plus some simple analysis based in observation and some basic intuition.

Do I need to discuss this with you? I don't believe so.

mraynrand...Please don't de-rail this thread.

If you have something of value and clearly focused on the Green Bay Packers defensive issue (s). Anything to add to any attempt we might take to see a solution. Anything 'clearly focused' on the topic of this thread.

We would welcome that.

Otherwise, and specifically anything personal and offensive, isn't welcome here.

Thanks.

[denverYooper]

Quote Originally Posted by Cleft Crusty View Post

I once worked for the Rand Corporation, but otherwise I think you have the wrong guy.

It's so complicated.

So so ... so complicated. No .... wait !

At times like this we can resort to ....... Boolean Algebra:

Identity Law:

(a) A + A = A

(b) A A = A

Eh!

Pretty sure that's Idempotence.

[Rodgers12]

I once worked for the Rand Corporation, but otherwise I think you have the wrong guy.

If you're not Rand, are you Scott Campbell? Campbell seems to have an awful obsession for my internet pal, Woodbuck.

Don't mess with Woody. WB doesn't back down from anything, unlike myself. Me? I don't wanna get into a chick fight with Kentucky.

[KYPack]

If you're not Rand, are you Scott Campbell? Campbell seems to have an awful obsession for my internet pal, Woodbuck.

Don't mess with Woody. WB doesn't back down from anything, unlike myself. Me? I don't wanna get into a chick fight with Kentucky.

What happened to this bullshit?

" I don't make personal attacks b/c I don't get into personal relationships with humble internet posters the world wide web over"

Another lie from the Baby Tanky.

Yeah sure, let's go.

I'd wear your bony ass out.

[Rodgers12]

BRING BLACK DR. JOHN HOLMES, PH.D.!!!

Dr. John Holmes, Ph.D and M.D., is the noted psychiatrist and psychologist at Southern Cal.

According to Dr. Holmes, the infamous poster formerly known as "Tank" was not "trolling" when he posted his rant about the Packers defense in this thread. Instead, Tank was trying to be like his favorite sportswriter of all time, Norman Chad. Psychically and psychologically, Tank's desire to be a poor-man Norman Chad on an internet forum indicates that he regrets going all in with 7-2 off-suits.

Sadly, hockey fans as well as soccer fans, women and men without humor got Norman Chad banned at JSO. His sumptuous articles no longer appear there. :mad:

[woodbuck27]

If you're not Rand, are you Scott Campbell? Campbell seems to have an awful obsession for my internet pal, Woodbuck.

Don't mess with Woody. WB doesn't back down from anything, unlike myself. Me? I don't wanna get into a chick fight with Kentucky.

Scott Campbell couldn't imagine posing as Biker Boy in Packer drag.

Scott's more into this style:

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRpAhtaRzbsNI7w4HGSIe9YwnhOJuyrs 6074sHYRtR7Mngs6--1nQ

I miss that member...and he'll usually pop around when the Packerrats frustration meter gets pumped to the exhaust level.

That's besides the point of this thread.

Please IGNORE any poster that is obviously 'off topic'.

I don't want this thread 'jacked'.

OK !

Thanks.

[Rodgers12]

Please IGNORE any poster that is obviously 'off topic'.

I don't want this thread 'jacked'.

OK !

Thanks.

Yes, lets get back to talking about the Packers' D.

[Rodgers12]

What other players were available for us to actually sign or draft - besides maybe Elam - that were better than Jennings? McMillan was so awful he's no longer on the team.

Considering how bad Jennings, McMillan and even Burnett are, there has got to be plenty of unnamed players better than the aforementioned three. It's the laws of average, I think.

[George Cumby]

Let's see:

Rand is back (welcome back!).

Woody is misguidedly defending Tank.

Tank is triangulating Woody against those of us who see Tank for what he is.

Tank has derailed this thread and has tried to derail the others he has posted on.

Mad, has the social experiment reached critical mass, yet, or are you going to let this ride a bit longer?

[woodbuck27]

Considering how bad Jennings, McMillan and even Burnett are, there has got to be plenty of unnamed players better than the aforementioned three. It's the laws of average, I think.

That's what this discussion must focus on.

Forget any 'clown parade' .... on this thread.

WE don't want this thread resembling something out of Stephen King.

Thanks Rodgers12.

[woodbuck27]

Let's see:

Rand is back (welcome back!).

Woody is misguidedly defending Tank.

Tank is triangulating Woody against those of us who see Tank for what he is.

Tank has derailed this thread and has tried to derail the others he has posted on.

Mad, has the social experiment reached critical mass, yet, or are you going to let this ride a bit longer?

George TRUST Ole woodbuck27:

Your analysis needs new grease. Change the oil.

Some different mustard on your hot dog.

Your not there.

[George Cumby]

No, Woody. My anal lysis is just fine, thanks.

I got no beef with you, mate.

[woodbuck27]

This really explains quite a lot.





Perhaps there could be a new law in logic named after wood buck: The law of contradiction.

Do I deserve some (any) credit for you finally changing your avatar from something political (as Mad requested of you over and over and over again) ? You place new meaning on the word procrastination.

Big TT supporter...OK...I get it.

All the same please exercise your narcissistic needs on some other members thread.

This thread has potential to be something very good for the forum.

As always, Thanks.

[woodbuck27]

No, Woody. My anal lysis is just fine, thanks.

I got no beef with you, mate.

George Cumby:

a)I have clearly claimed that Cleft Crusty and mraynrand are one and the same in terms of the flesh that sits at the keyboard as either.

I'm seldom wrong when I go so far as to make such an accusation.

Wrong or not is moot as I know how to handle that.

b) I'm entirely neutral as all members should be in terms of any issue KYPack has with member Rodgers12. I don't see any issue in the reverse. That's NOT my business 'only' Mad's business.

c) I do not believe that Rodgers12 can manipulate me. Nor do I see him 'Jacking this thread' that I have real hopes for. I see that possible threat from another member. It should be clear to you who that membe (s) is.

I know if it's not already confusing enough to be a Packer fan these days. :whaa:

d) I have always been a grateful peer of KYPack on this forum ... others and found him a sound/worthy opponent on the Pro Pickem. I especially respect the deeper knowledge he has for the finer points of the game of football.

e) In my book ... RE: Any member here. If that member respects all other members in terms of some decency. The member gets my respect. I realize that we all suffer bad days and times and such deserves it's proper due in terms of patience.

f) When I place any member on IGNORE I do so for the good of my Packer home...Packerrats. I carefully consider and positively know when such action is necessary in terms of good sense.

I felt it was necessary to elaborate on my positions for you and any member of Packerrats to be clear about.

Speculation isn't good Math.

[denverYooper]

BOMNF!

[Rodgers12]

BOMNF!

What's so funny?

[woodbuck27]

BOMNF!

Yea I know. Enduring 2-4-6 quarters when our defense is so fricken' bad the only thing a fan can do is laugh your tits off.

It's better to be drinking a nice herbel tee at such times. Beer sprayed all over the living room piss's off the Lady.

[KYPack]

What's so funny?

You.

You funny.

Ban this sumbitch, Mad.

or enforce his ban, I should say.