Defensive Overhaul

[call_me_ishmael]

Is it the players? Is it dom?

Is Pickett done? Is he not as good as I think? Reporters always put him at near pro-bowl level. Really steady and solid.

Is Raji done? I thought this guy was a pro-bowl type talent (allegedly). Where are the plays?

Datone Jones at least shows some potential but he certainly had minimal impact during his rookie season.

What player on the line makes any impact plays? I get that it's a 3-4 and they aren't going to be getting after the passer, but the DL is a bunch of fatties which should be able to stop the run.

How are AJ Hawk and Brad Jones still the starters? Does anyone think these guys would start for any other team?

Is Nick Perry ever going to play consistently?

Is Mike Neal anything more than a JAG?

The safeties are trash.

Is it really Dom's fault? The players up the middle of the D are absolute trash.

If I could, I would probably get rid of every body but Datone Jones are start fresh.

[Rodgers12]

If I could, I would probably get rid of every body but Datone Jones are start fresh.

Even The Claymaker?

I know, The Claymaker is made of glass, but Jones over the Claymaker?

[Freak Out]

Guys need to stay healthy....and they need a monster in the middle (LB) along with a safety or two.

[call_me_ishmael]

Even The Claymaker?

I know, The Claymaker is made of glass, but Jones over the Claymaker?

I meant up the middle. I suppose that wasn't clear as Jones could be considered an outside-the-tackle guy as well. I like our corners and Clay. I do think the kid from Iowa is overrated though. It seems like he holds an awful lot.

[packrulz]

Now that I've calmed down I don't really blame Dom for a lack of talent, I like Hawk, but he is too slow in pass coverage. Since Woodson left, safety is a gaping hole. Clay is our only decent pass rusher. Until TT can find better talent on defense, it doesn't matter who the DC is. On a positive note, Bakhtiari, Lacy, Boykin, Hyde, & Daniels all were nice picks.

[PA Pack Fan]

I have yet to see or remember a play made with any significance by Nick Perry. Add him to the list.

[oldbutnotdeadyet]

One side of me says relax old guy, it takes time to rebuild a defense as bad as the Packers. The other side says we are not improving, and many of the players there now appear to be leaving via free agency or retirement. The last, more emotional side, says BLOW THE FUCKER UP! Consequently, I have no clue what to do...but would at least like to see some improvement from year to year. Isn't that TT's and MM's responsibility?

[woodbuck27]

Now that I've calmed down I don't really blame Dom for a lack of talent, I like Hawk, but he is too slow in pass coverage. Since Woodson left, safety is a gaping hole. Clay is our only decent pass rusher. Until TT can find better talent on defense, it doesn't matter who the DC is. On a positive note, Bakhtiari, Lacy, Boykin, Hyde, & Daniels all were nice picks.

Yes. I believe the blinds have been lifted from the window.

The view outside is somewhat welcome but after looking at it for awhile.

Don't you want to draw those blinds again?

The thing is we can't do that. That isn't an option.

We can't run away and hide as Packer fans.

We need to know more than the score and the teams position in the standings.

Playoffs or not isn't the focus of your Packer fan dedication.

PACKERS!

[Fritz]

Yes. I believe the blinds have been lifted from the window.

The view outside is somewhat welcome but after looking at it for awhile.

Don't you want to draw those blinds again?

The thing is we can't do that. That isn't an option.

We can't run away and hide as Packer fans.

We need to know more than the score and the teams position in the standings.

Playoffs or not isn't the focus of your Packer fan dedication.

PACKERS!

Seems like the defensive line doesn't hold point and the inside linebackers are too slow. Plus the safety spot is weak.

[denverYooper]

I have yet to see or remember a play made with any significance by Nick Perry. Add him to the list.

He leads the team in forced fumbles, tied with Clay at 3.

[bobblehead]

Impactful players: Clay, Shields, Daniels, Hayward (this is a good core of a defense if healthy)

Serviceable players: Jolly, Perry, Neal, Burnett, Hyde, Pickett

Guys who need to be replaced: BJones, Safety de jour, Hawk, Pickett (age and health), Raji

If you draft/aquire one thumper at LB and one serviceable safety the D looks a lot better (when healthy). Also we need some of the young DL that I can't categorize to step up. I also want a coordinator with attitude. A Kevin Greene type. Nearly every team has holes on D, but we can't seem to cover ours up. 400 points....seriously?

[pbmax]

I have yet to see or remember a play made with any significance by Nick Perry. Add him to the list.

His story is the same old story of the defense. He had a 3 sack game (or 3 sacks over the course of 2 perhaps) and looked like he had arrived. Then he got hurt and was never the same.

[pbmax]

I think Hawk and Burnett can play, but are fully formed and are not going to change a D by themselves. Burnett has stood out especially when he had talent next to him.

I think Hawk is much the same. Since the odds of landing two Pro Bowlers at these spots is low enough, I would be happy to keep both and get someone who can play next to them. The problem with each, as it always is, is cost. Both are on their second contracts.

[run pMc]

I'm often torn: do we need thumpers at ILB, or do we need a thumper and a cover ILB? Seems like Hawk or Jones covering RBs like Sproles, Bush, McCoy is often a mismatch, and same thing with TE's.
If you believe McGinn, the D can't be small, soft, or slow. Wow - great analysis. So we need a 6-4 260 ILB with great football IQ who can bench 35 reps and run a 4.5 40...where do we find a couple of those?

[denverYooper]

I'm often torn: do we need thumpers at ILB, or do we need a thumper and a cover ILB? Seems like Hawk or Jones covering RBs like Sproles, Bush, McCoy is often a mismatch, and same thing with TE's.
If you believe McGinn, the D can't be small, soft, or slow. Wow - great analysis. So we need a 6-4 260 ILB with great football IQ who can bench 35 reps and run a 4.5 40...where do we find a couple of those?

They need this guy's grandmother:

http://damox.com/entertainment/dazed_and_confused/assistant_coach.JPG

"Hell man, my grandma's quicker 'n tougher than you pansies... 'course she's 6-3 250!"

(Randy Floyd: "runs a 4.5 40")

[Pugger]

I have yet to see or remember a play made with any significance by Nick Perry. Add him to the list.

He's made some plays but I don't think that ankle of his is 100%. It can't be easy to rush the passer and get off blocks with a bum foot. We saw flashes of what we could have if both he and Clay were in there healthy but this has been THE worst year for injuries that I can recall. This year makes 2010 seem like a cakewalk. :sad:

[run pMc]

Perry's shown flashes so I wouldn't call him a bust. Both he and Clay have had some issues staying healthy though.
Perry and Neal have done a decent job of switching into an OLB role. I'd say both flash but still make mistakes. More upside than Walden.

Agree Safety is also a big problem but doesn't sound like the draft has a lot to offer.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Walden is better tham Perry. but I suppose Perry does have that upside thing.

[woodbuck27]

I'm often torn: do we need thumpers at ILB, or do we need a thumper and a cover ILB? Seems like Hawk or Jones covering RBs like Sproles, Bush, McCoy is often a mismatch, and same thing with TE's.
If you believe McGinn, the D can't be small, soft, or slow. Wow - great analysis. So we need a 6-4 260 ILB with great football IQ who can bench 35 reps and run a 4.5 40...where do we find a couple of those?

China.

[woodbuck27]

He's made some plays but I don't think that ankle of his is 100%. It can't be easy to rush the passer and get off blocks with a bum foot. We saw flashes of what we could have if both he and Clay were in there healthy but this has been THE worst year for injuries that I can recall. This year makes 2010 seem like a cakewalk. :sad:

http://i.brainyquote.com/pm/b/baltasargracian379622_m.jpg

Just do it...Stop the excuses and simply clean house !

START FRESH ! FIRE Em ALL !! NO MERCY !!

[George Cumby]

Impactful players: Clay, Shields, Daniels, Hayward (this is a good core of a defense if healthy)

Serviceable players: Jolly, Perry, Neal, Burnett, Hyde, Pickett

Guys who need to be replaced: BJones, Safety de jour, Hawk, Pickett (age and health), Raji

If you draft/aquire one thumper at LB and one serviceable safety the D looks a lot better (when healthy). Also we need some of the young DL that I can't categorize to step up. I also want a coordinator with attitude. A Kevin Greene type. Nearly every team has holes on D, but we can't seem to cover ours up. 400 points....seriously?

I generally agree with your assessment, I think Hawk isn't as bad as you think and Jolly and Perry are better than serviceable.

So the D isn't without talent but the coaching staff is not maximizing the talent available and certainly isn't getting them to play at a high level on a consistent basis.

Capers needs to go and probably some of the assistants as well.

CMIII's position as bell-cow is suspect. Every year he's lost time to injury. I don't know if staying married to a 3-4 because of him is the right thing to do. I'm not advocating for that change, I just think the option for a change should be contemplated.

[Bretsky]

I think Hawk and Burnett can play, but are fully formed and are not going to change a D by themselves. Burnett has stood out especially when he had talent next to him.

I think Hawk is much the same. Since the odds of landing two Pro Bowlers at these spots is low enough, I would be happy to keep both and get someone who can play next to them. The problem with each, as it always is, is cost. Both are on their second contracts.


I think you are spot on. I overestimated Burnett but still think he's serviceable and a dam good #2 safety. The problem is we've been stocking college level talent next to him for the past several years. I pound the table year after year and I'll do it again; it's about time we get another f'kin safety. Both the Niners and Ravens did a dam nice job drafting the two guys we should have been considering.

I also think Hawk is a nice piece to the puzzle. He just won't carry any defense. He's not a #5 draft pick....and we all realize that he never will be a star talent....but he's alright...which is far more than we can say for some of the others on defense.

[Bretsky]

I generally agree with your assessment, I think Hawk isn't as bad as you think and Jolly and Perry are better than serviceable.

So the D isn't without talent but the coaching staff is not maximizing the talent available and certainly isn't getting them to play at a high level on a consistent basis.

Capers needs to go and probably some of the assistants as well.

CMIII's position as bell-cow is suspect. Every year he's lost time to injury. I don't know if staying married to a 3-4 because of him is the right thing to do. I'm not advocating for that change, I just think the option for a change should be contemplated.


Agree on Jolly but I'm starting to think Perry is a fraud

[Harlan Huckleby]

Perry has shown no more than serviceable.

I'm more encouraged by Neal's development.

Hawk is a good player.

Maybe the fans were smarter than the coaches in suggesting Hyde play safety THIS year. Although he is a little light.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I'm starting to think Perry is a fraud

You beat me to the punch, and you threw a right upper cut while I was composing my little jab.

[pbmax]

I think Perry showed what he can do this year but his foot is bothering him. Even with out a pass rush, he is better against the run than Walden.

[denverYooper]

I think Perry showed what he can do this year but his foot is bothering him. Even with out a pass rush, he is better against the run than Walden.

This. Perry will be fine if he invests in a hyperbaric chamber. Maybe he needs to stop by Hawk's house and browse through the new catalog.

[Bretsky]

I think Perry showed what he can do this year but his foot is bothering him. Even with out a pass rush, he is better against the run than Walden.


We drafted him based on his strenght as a pass rusher. Without the pass rush..it was a bad pick

[red]

to me, perry is looking like a bust. like B said, he was drafted for his pass rush, which is almost non existent

neal is more boom or bust, a lot like walden IMO. he makes a couple nice plays here and there, and you don't even know if he's on or off the field the rest of the time. and again, he gives us no pass rush

[pbmax]

A busted first rounder is costly, but not as costly as some of Walden's misplays.

[Rutnstrut]

Get rid of Capers, and if the new guy is a 4-3 guy so be it. If clay bitches or can't make the transition, trade his often injured ass. IMO, the defense needs more solid, tough, dependable guys like Hawk, fewer brittle superstars like Mathews.

[red]

A busted first rounder is costly, but not as costly as some of Walden's misplays.

busts anywhere in the draft is bad for us

because of the fact that we completely neglect turnover, if you try and factor in turnover, we're looking at needing 4 to 5 starters out of every draft

people have looked at out past drafts and seen 2 or 3 starters and a couple of backups and say that it was a very good draft because thats all you can really ask for in a draft. i disagree. by not trading for players or signing free agents, we have to hit on almost all of our draft picks, we just cannot afford second year mid round picks to be off our roster.

TT is the one that forces that much pressure on him and his drafts, and he is the one failing to live up to is own expectations

if you start missing on as many draft picks as TT has lately, then you have to go out and get us real talent. if te saftey you drafted in the third round the year before doesn't pan out, you don't just replace him with an undrafted street FA . sign a vet for 2 or 3 million a year, trade for a guy. do something to improve your team and actually fix your mistakes.

[woodbuck27]

busts anywhere in the draft is bad for us

because of the fact that we completely neglect turnover, if you try and factor in turnover, we're looking at needing 4 to 5 starters out of every draft

people have looked at out past drafts and seen 2 or 3 starters and a couple of backups and say that it was a very good draft because thats all you can really ask for in a draft. i disagree. by not trading for players or signing free agents, we have to hit on almost all of our draft picks, we just cannot afford second year mid round picks to be off our roster.

TT is the one that forces that much pressure on him and his drafts, and he is the one failing to live up to is own expectations

if you start missing on as many draft picks as TT has lately, then you have to go out and get us real talent. if te saftey you drafted in the third round the year before doesn't pan out, you don't just replace him with an undrafted street FA . sign a vet for 2 or 3 million a year, trade for a guy. do something to improve your team and actually fix your mistakes.

In believe your correct red. TT has to use all of the tools that are afforded him in his toolbox.

It appears to me that he's running in circles to bite his tail off. He's had atrocious luck picking on defense.

Overall he hit on picks extremely well early as the Packer GM. He nailed it with Nick Collins and Aaron Rodgers is arguably the most valuable of MVP's in the NFL. To focus on position and an NFL team. iIagine New Orleans without Drew Brees.

TT has had terrible misfortune and Round One picks overall. He likes the Big bodied men. They do take time to mature in the NFL but his success there hasn't been good.

I think about this stuff a lot and want to come up with a great suggestion but it's not easy and TT"s running out of time with Aaron Rodgers talent if he doesn't soon get it right. I see it slipping away from him more and more.

I see so much that bothers me.

GO PACK GO !

[bobblehead]

Get rid of Capers, and if the new guy is a 4-3 guy so be it. If clay bitches or can't make the transition, trade his often injured ass. IMO, the defense needs more solid, tough, dependable guys like Hawk, fewer brittle superstars like Mathews.

a) Clay won't bitch
b) Clay can play in any defensive system invented. He is a football player, a complete player, and most importantly and instinctive player.

[bobblehead]

busts anywhere in the draft is bad for us

because of the fact that we completely neglect turnover, if you try and factor in turnover, we're looking at needing 4 to 5 starters out of every draft

people have looked at out past drafts and seen 2 or 3 starters and a couple of backups and say that it was a very good draft because thats all you can really ask for in a draft. i disagree. by not trading for players or signing free agents, we have to hit on almost all of our draft picks, we just cannot afford second year mid round picks to be off our roster.

TT is the one that forces that much pressure on him and his drafts, and he is the one failing to live up to is own expectations

if you start missing on as many draft picks as TT has lately, then you have to go out and get us real talent. if te saftey you drafted in the third round the year before doesn't pan out, you don't just replace him with an undrafted street FA . sign a vet for 2 or 3 million a year, trade for a guy. do something to improve your team and actually fix your mistakes.

Isn't FA a net sum game? I mean, if you sign anothers FA instead of your own, it means that guy drafted better than you...or he doesn't value that player as much. If you are drafting better than the other GM's and you resign your own, there is very little benefit to resigning someone elses castoff.

[wist43]

I admit I haven't watched much football this year, but I did watch some of the Pittsburgh game, and a little bit here and there over the past few games.

It seems like more of everything I was seeing in previous years from Dom, i.e. a lot of 2-4, 6 man fronts against either/or down and distance situations - and of course they had the ball run down their throats. More of the same with everything else too... everyone in the front seven (6 really, b/c he ran a 2-4 on just about every down) was misused.

I really can't offer up any real analysis for what's been happening this season b/c I haven't watched enough football, but what I have watched has been just more of what I've come to expect from Dom.

The problem is Dom. A lot of the players might not be an ideal fit for a straight up 3-4, but then it's Dom's responsibility to put them in positions to be successful - and he is clearly not doing that. Dom has to go... he needed to go 2 years ago.

[George Cumby]

I admit I haven't watched much football this year, but I did watch some of the Pittsburgh game, and a little bit here and there over the past few games.

It seems like more of everything I was seeing in previous years from Dom, i.e. a lot of 2-4, 6 man fronts against either/or down and distance situations - and of course they had the ball run down their throats. More of the same with everything else too... everyone in the front seven (6 really, b/c he ran a 2-4 on just about every down) was misused.

I really can't offer up any real analysis for what's been happening this season b/c I haven't watched enough football, but what I have watched has been just more of what I've come to expect from Dom.

The problem is Dom. A lot of the players might not be an ideal fit for a straight up 3-4, but then it's Dom's responsibility to put them in positions to be successful - and he is clearly not doing that. Dom has to go... he needed to go 2 years ago.

It's good to see you back. I hope you are well.

I have come around to your way of thinking. Capers must go.

[Bretsky]

busts anywhere in the draft is bad for us

because of the fact that we completely neglect turnover, if you try and factor in turnover, we're looking at needing 4 to 5 starters out of every draft

people have looked at out past drafts and seen 2 or 3 starters and a couple of backups and say that it was a very good draft because thats all you can really ask for in a draft. i disagree. by not trading for players or signing free agents, we have to hit on almost all of our draft picks, we just cannot afford second year mid round picks to be off our roster.

TT is the one that forces that much pressure on him and his drafts, and he is the one failing to live up to is own expectations

if you start missing on as many draft picks as TT has lately, then you have to go out and get us real talent. if te saftey you drafted in the third round the year before doesn't pan out, you don't just replace him with an undrafted street FA . sign a vet for 2 or 3 million a year, trade for a guy. do something to improve your team and actually fix your mistakes.


Many of us campaign every year to trade down and try to maneuver the draft to maximize 2nd/3rd round picks. Based on our recent 1st round draft history this still looks like a great idea.

The wanna be draft guys in here before the draft spatted out all of the talking head reports we heard....that NickPerry was a bad fit in a 3-4. Then we took him and amnesia kicked in
From the get go everybody noted he has to develop that 2nd move to rush the passer. He has not yet.

We don't have much to show for our first round draft picks since Clay Matthews....do we ??

[Bretsky]

Isn't FA a net sum game? I mean, if you sign anothers FA instead of your own, it means that guy drafted better than you...or he doesn't value that player as much. If you are drafting better than the other GM's and you resign your own, there is very little benefit to resigning someone elses castoff.


It's no better or worse to overpay somebody else's player than grossly overpaying our own.....case in point...Brad Jones

[Bretsky]

a) Clay won't bitch
b) Clay can play in any defensive system invented. He is a football player, a complete player, and most importantly and instinctive player.


I agree...and I think Clay would be fine in a 4-3 as well

[mraynrand]

I admit I haven't watched much football this year, but I did watch some of the Pittsburgh game, and a little bit here and there over the past few games.

It seems like more of everything I was seeing in previous years from Dom, i.e. a lot of 2-4, 6 man fronts against either/or down and distance situations - and of course they had the ball run down their throats. More of the same with everything else too... everyone in the front seven (6 really, b/c he ran a 2-4 on just about every down) was misused.

I really can't offer up any real analysis for what's been happening this season b/c I haven't watched enough football, but what I have watched has been just more of what I've come to expect from Dom.

The problem is Dom. A lot of the players might not be an ideal fit for a straight up 3-4, but then it's Dom's responsibility to put them in positions to be successful - and he is clearly not doing that. Dom has to go... he needed to go 2 years ago.

Nice to see you posting. You could be right about Dom, but with the decimation of the defense, it's hard to tell. Jolly, Pickett, Matthews and Perry seemed to be the key the run defense and they are all severely compromised or gone due to injury, so who can really tell? Jones is marginal at best and Hawk is just better than JAG. Safeties are marginal, so the entire middle of the defense is suspect, talent-wise. Need to get better right up the middle in the off season. Hope Rex Ryan is available, but some other team will probably hire him as head coach - maybe even Minnesota, since Minnesota is famous for it's foot fetishes - and tall, blonde Skindinavian women.

[woodbuck27]

I admit I haven't watched much football this year, but I did watch some of the Pittsburgh game, and a little bit here and there over the past few games.

It seems like more of everything I was seeing in previous years from Dom, i.e. a lot of 2-4, 6 man fronts against either/or down and distance situations - and of course they had the ball run down their throats. More of the same with everything else too... everyone in the front seven (6 really, b/c he ran a 2-4 on just about every down) was misused.

I really can't offer up any real analysis for what's been happening this season b/c I haven't watched enough football, but what I have watched has been just more of what I've come to expect from Dom.

The problem is Dom. A lot of the players might not be an ideal fit for a straight up 3-4, but then it's Dom's responsibility to put them in positions to be successful - and he is clearly not doing that. Dom has to go... he needed to go 2 years ago.

Yes your certainly bang on 'again' Packer fan'

I hope your feeling somewhat better and Merry Christmas to you Wist43 and to those you care for...love.

GO PACKERS...GO PACK GO !

[denverYooper]

I admit I haven't watched much football this year, but I did watch some of the Pittsburgh game, and a little bit here and there over the past few games.

It seems like more of everything I was seeing in previous years from Dom, i.e. a lot of 2-4, 6 man fronts against either/or down and distance situations - and of course they had the ball run down their throats. More of the same with everything else too... everyone in the front seven (6 really, b/c he ran a 2-4 on just about every down) was misused.

I really can't offer up any real analysis for what's been happening this season b/c I haven't watched enough football, but what I have watched has been just more of what I've come to expect from Dom.

The problem is Dom. A lot of the players might not be an ideal fit for a straight up 3-4, but then it's Dom's responsibility to put them in positions to be successful - and he is clearly not doing that. Dom has to go... he needed to go 2 years ago.

Good to see you Wist. You've been missed. George even had to start a "Fire Spray Paint Hare!" (sic) thread in your honor with all of the defensive meltdowns happening early in Rodgers' absence.

[bobblehead]

It's no better or worse to overpay somebody else's player than grossly overpaying our own.....case in point...Brad Jones

YOu give me one example of a guy who is slightly overpaid. At the end of last season he emerged as a reasonable cover guy. His contract was not back loaded or dangerous. He hasn't lived up to it, we can cut him anytime. I am pretty sure when most here talk FA, they aren't talking about a guy signing for $4 million a year, they want TT to sign Albert Haynsworth for $15 million a year, with 60 million in dead money.

[Bretsky]

YOu give me one example of a guy who is slightly overpaid. At the end of last season he emerged as a reasonable cover guy. His contract was not back loaded or dangerous. He hasn't lived up to it, we can cut him anytime. I am pretty sure when most here talk FA, they aren't talking about a guy signing for $4 million a year, they want TT to sign Albert Haynsworth for $15 million a year, with 60 million in dead money.


I don't think your last assumption is fair at all; we aren't calling for a Haynesworth. I thnk that mentality has been gone for a long time. Brad Jones, was an is ridiculously overpaid. He had some nice stints last year but he's a backup and his body of work shows that. He's an obvious example. Tyrone Williams is overpaid. You asked for examples. FWIW I was on board with the Tramon Williams signing from the start so I only bring this up because some others thought we overpaid him from the start. Brad Jones....I was never on board with him. We all thoght Eric Walden was ridiculously overpaid...but some used that to try to justify paying Brad Jones. Never bought into that.

[Bretsky]

YOu give me one example of a guy who is slightly overpaid. At the end of last season he emerged as a reasonable cover guy. His contract was not back loaded or dangerous. He hasn't lived up to it, we can cut him anytime. I am pretty sure when most here talk FA, they aren't talking about a guy signing for $4 million a year, they want TT to sign Albert Haynsworth for $15 million a year, with 60 million in dead money.


Jermichael Finley was overpaid. I was fine with the deal but in retrospect would we have been better off letting him go and investing elsewhere ?
Those are off the top of my head; if you dig into deals it would not be hard to find others

[bobblehead]

I don't think your last assumption is fair at all; we aren't calling for a Haynesworth. I thnk that mentality has been gone for a long time. Brad Jones, was an is ridiculously overpaid. He had some nice stints last year but he's a backup and his body of work shows that. He's an obvious example. Tyrone Williams is overpaid. You asked for examples. FWIW I was on board with the Tramon Williams signing from the start so I only bring this up because some others thought we overpaid him from the start. Brad Jones....I was never on board with him. We all thoght Eric Walden was ridiculously overpaid...but some used that to try to justify paying Brad Jones. Never bought into that.

You say Brad Jones is overpaid, I say he is paid on the low end of starting ILB...which is what his talent dictates. Tramon? NOt even a comparison. The man was an absolute monster and key to us winning the superbowl. He hasn't quite been the same since the shoulder injury, but he absolutely earned that contract. If we had let him walk, TT would be getting crucified for it. TT agreed with you re: Walden...that is why he is gone. And for Finley, we 2 year franchised him with the option to cut him after one. That wasn't a bad deal at all. Show me ANY GM that gets an up and comer to sign a 2 year deal with very little up front. We got a chance to see if he developed or not. That too was a good deal.

I would love to see the armchair GM's run a team. Well, I would sign Jared Allen and Julius Peppers to be my bookends for 3 mill a year each and then I would trade a 6th for Calvin Johnson...I might have to throw in James Jones to make the deal. Sadly TT has to live in the real world, and in the real world we have a superbowl, a 15-1 season, and a hell of a playoff streak going...going...we'll see if its gone.

[wist43]

Good to see you Wist. You've been missed. George even had to start a "Fire Spray Paint Hare!" (sic) thread in your honor with all of the defensive meltdowns happening early in Rodgers' absence.

lol... good to see you guys.

I'm still not full speed - but feeling a bit better. Having to make a lot of life changes, but hopefully will be in better shape in the coming year.

Haven't watched much of our Packers this year, but looked at the box scores and highlights (lowlights) - yes, still want a new DC :)

[Bretsky]

You say Brad Jones is overpaid, I say he is paid on the low end of starting ILB...which is what his talent dictates. Tramon? NOt even a comparison. The man was an absolute monster and key to us winning the superbowl. He hasn't quite been the same since the shoulder injury, but he absolutely earned that contract. If we had let him walk, TT would be getting crucified for it. TT agreed with you re: Walden...that is why he is gone. And for Finley, we 2 year franchised him with the option to cut him after one. That wasn't a bad deal at all. Show me ANY GM that gets an up and comer to sign a 2 year deal with very little up front. We got a chance to see if he developed or not. That too was a good deal.

I would love to see the armchair GM's run a team. Well, I would sign Jared Allen and Julius Peppers to be my bookends for 3 mill a year each and then I would trade a 6th for Calvin Johnson...I might have to throw in James Jones to make the deal. Sadly TT has to live in the real world, and in the real world we have a superbowl, a 15-1 season, and a hell of a playoff streak going...going...we'll see if its gone.


Brad Jones was not a strating calibur ILB. He's a backup and his body of work supports that.
As I noted I suported Tramon Williams signing but you asked me for who was overpaid and I gave it to you. You can choose to nitpick every name I throw out there if you want to based on your bias. I can come up with several more guys that are overpaid based on my bias and their production. Every team has some guys who are overpaid. I also noted I was fine with the Finley deal....but he was overpaid based on his production.

And as I had noted we can make the same decisions with other free agents as we can our own. Not signing free agents is not the Holy Grail of all solutions to run a team. There are different ways to get to the end goal. I don't think I'm an extremist either way but I can acknowledge that point.

[bobblehead]

Brad Jones was not a strating calibur ILB. He's a backup and his body of work supports that.
As I noted I suported Tramon Williams signing but you asked me for who was overpaid and I gave it to you.

I should have been more clear. I meant who was given a contract that was not deserved. I guess you could argue Clay is overpaid too since he isn't playing. And Rodgers. Certainly Morgan Burnett is overpaid.

FA has exactly one purpose. To fill a hole that you will not be able to fill in house or through the draft. If there are no safeties available in the draft this year worth a shit, we should sign one. Our other plans have not worked out. However I am a firm believer in the chemistry theory. You could sign a guy who is available that suddenly isn't so good in your system. Maybe he doesn't have very good study habits. By signing your own, you largely know what you are getting. Signing someone for more money than his previous team was willing to give him...well, you might take a hint.

[Bossman641]

Way too early to give up on Perry IMO. He had 3 sacks through the Baltimore game (5 games) and was part of a stout run defense. Of course, the injuries to himself and others have killed the run D since then.

[woodbuck27]

I should have been more clear. I meant who was given a contract that was not deserved. I guess you could argue Clay is overpaid too since he isn't playing. And Rodgers. Certainly Morgan Burnett is overpaid.

FA has exactly one purpose. To fill a hole that you will not be able to fill in house or through the draft. If there are no safeties available in the draft this year worth a shit, we should sign one. Our other plans have not worked out. However I am a firm believer in the chemistry theory. You could sign a guy who is available that suddenly isn't so good in your system. Maybe he doesn't have very good study habits. By signing your own, you largely know what you are getting. Signing someone for more money than his previous team was willing to give him...well, you might take a hint.

It's time we take stock of who is/isn't on the roster for the 2014 season. This question of the Packer Defense and is it coaching or roster talent or part both? Good question but isn't it moot or doesn't it have to be weighed looking at the first picture?

Don't we have to count the chickens in the barnyard first?

Which upcoming UFA'a and RFA'a have been signed by GM Ted Thompson is a BIG NOT. That man is very generous with Green Bay Packer CAP money and it's a blessing in disguise that to date and looking into this off season no one has yet to bite on TT's generosity.

What's up with that?

We're aware of the fair offer to BJ Raji and possibly your aware of some rather nice $multi Million dollar package$ offered to CB Sam Shields. I'm getting that at around $40 Milllion$ The latest I read on that. Don't expect that to happen.

My interpretation from this is that RCB Sam Shields will be leaving Green Bay when he finds work elsewhere.

Isn't that the same and BJ Raji !? There both out of here! Green Bay isn't their idea of a good cup of tea.

Don't even imagine who you would cut /keep. Who in blue blazes wants to remain a Green Bay Packer?

Is there any one member on this board that has a real clue RE: TT signing "First Team members" ... NT Ryan Pickett, DE Johnny Jolly, DE BJ Raji and CB Sam Shields. Others DE CJ Wilson and OLB/DE "hybride" Mike Neal, ILB Jamari Lattimore and LB Rob Francois and FS's MD Jennings and Chris Banjo?

No you don't !

While I'm here. On the offense side of the ball: First Team members... WR James Jones; RB James Starks; C Evan Dietrich-Smith; TE's Jermichael Finley and Andrew Quarless; OT Marshall Newhouse and FB John Kuhn.

That's a lot of chickens set to try and fly the coop.

Any concerns there Packer fans? Does Packer GM Ted Thompson have any concerns?

Maybe all your trust is in Ted Thompson?


PACKERS !

[denverYooper]

Shields isn't going anywhere.

[ThunderDan]

Just looked at the SEA team. If I counted correctly they will have 14 free agent or restricted free agent players after this season. That's 26% of their 2013 roster.

Every team faces turnover. There are only so many players you can sign for $8,000,000+ per year as NFL studs before you can't afford anyone else to play with them.

The Packers will have the same issues as every other team. Who on the team is worth keeping and for how much money?

[mraynrand]

Way too early to give up on Perry IMO. He had 3 sacks through the Baltimore game (5 games) and was part of a stout run defense. Of course, the injuries to himself and others have killed the run D since then.


Some of these guys you just have no idea what they'd be like playing at 100% - and playing along side other defenders also at 100%. It's a solid defense that really makes playmakers stand out, because teams can't gang up on them.

[woodbuck27]

Shields isn't going anywhere.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2013/11/29/nfl-packers-sam-shields-in-talks-for-contract-extension/3786259/

* As Packers collapse, Sam Shields could cash in

Tom Pelissero, USA TODAY 5:37 p.m. EST November 29, 2013

That says that negotiations are ongoing on a multi-year contract extension with CB Sam Shields. That was 4 weeks ago. Sure so what that's just 4 weeks ago but....

Before that *, we had this **:

http://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/for-packers-price-tag-on-sam-shields-extension-keeps-growing

** For Packers, Price Tag on Sam Shields Extension Keeps Growing

By: Zach Kruse on Oct 21, 2013

Before that **, we had this ***:

*** Sam Shields signs Sam Shields signs RFA tender with Green Bay Packers - NFL.com

www.nfl.com/.../sam-shields-signs-rfa-tender-with-g...‎

Jun 3, 2013

Before that *** we had this ****.

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2013/4/16/4230496/packers-sam-shields-extension-talks

**** Packers explore long-term extension with Sam Shields

By Adam Stites  @AdamBCC on Apr 16 2013, 10:50 AM

I read somewhere in my internet 'all things Green Bay Packers) travels just last week. That the rumor is that things appear to have gone south regarding further Packers negotiations with Sam Shields. To NOT expect Sam Shields back in 2014.

We'll see and I'm simply the messenger and such news doesn't seem good to me. I see Sam Shields now as our teams best overall and most consistent defender in the secondary. I hope that Ted Thompson can sign him. :smile:

Those truly in the know are 'Packers contract negotiator' Russ Ball Vice President of Football Administration/ Player Finance, Ted Thompson and Sam Shields and his agent. Things there seem slow but 'in fact' may be right on course.

Just like the news we're waiting for today on Aaron Rodgers. We must be patient and take "a whatever will be will be" position.

GO PACK GO ! ... PACKERS !!

[Bossman641]

If worst comes to worst with Shields we can franchise him. Is he worth that kind of money? I don't know, but it's not as though we have no options.

I still think he signs a long term deal.

[call_me_ishmael]

I think there are a lot of reasons the D sucks.

1. Sustained success = less talent on roster due to drafting lower

The Colts went through this too. When you are picking at the bottom year after year, it is tough to keep talent when you don't sign FA. The Patriots have gone through it, too, but they keep the cabinet stocked by utilizing trades and strategic free agency. Another reason they are significantly ahead of everyone else in terms of consistent success. Best franchise in the league by a mile.

2. Injury prone draft picks

Mike Neal can't stay healthy. Even this year he never practices. Clay is hurt annually and misses a few games. Perry is consistently hurt. Brad Jones is always hurt. The linebackers consistently yet - not surprising given the injury epidemic there. At least Hawk is available. That's more than we can say for the rest.

3. Poor drafting

I think TT is a little overrated and a lot of his success can be attributed to Rodgers and Favre. Having said that, have to credit him with Rodgers. It seems to me that the quality of drafts have really dropped over the past 3-4 years when McKenzie, Schneider, the dude in KC, etc departing.

He hasn't drafted a star since 2009. We can give him epic credit for Clay, but Raji is a pretty big bust in my opinion for his draft position. Bulaga (can't stay on the field), Sherrod (Can't get on the field), Perry (Can't stay on the field) and Jones (Can't get on the field) have not been impressive at all for #1 picks. The #2 picks haven't been great, either.

I'm not suggesting TT has to go or anything like that, but it is clear that he is responsible for the quality of the roster and it is significantly less talented than the 2010 super bowl team.

[run pMc]

I think the futures of Shields and Tramon are tied together, thanks to the salary cap.
Was curious about SEA...found a couple of links.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1860605-an-in-depth-look-into-whats-ahead-for-the-seattle-seahawks-2014-offseason


Part of the problem is that the Seahawks "overspent" this season. The Seahawks rolled over approximately $13 million on cap space from 2012 and used that extra cap space to spend $10.5 million more than the league salary cap for this season.

By rolling over just $2.5 million from this season into 2014, the Seahawks have set up a scenario for the team's total budget for 2014 that will actually be less than what they have spent in 2013.


http://overthecap.com/futurefreeagents.php?Team=Seahawks

If this is correct, 2014 will be a cakewalk compared to 2015 (Earl Thomas, Richard Sherman) and 2016 (R. Okung, R. Wilson, several other major contributors).

[run pMc]

Agree that draft position matters, as do injuries. I think TT has drafted pretty well, but he whiffed on the 2012 all-D draft. We can say this team goes nowhere without Rodgers, but it's a QB-centric league, and TT drafted Rodgers too. I'm glad he didn't swap with WAS and take Jason Campbell.

I've always thought his R2 picks seemed to work out better than his R1 picks --
Collins, Jennings, Jordy, Cobb, Hayward, and a few that were so-so but at least contributed (Daryn Colledge, Brandon Jackson) to a SB win.

[bobblehead]

I think there are a lot of reasons the D sucks.

1. Sustained success = less talent on roster due to drafting lower

The Colts went through this too. When you are picking at the bottom year after year, it is tough to keep talent when you don't sign FA. The Patriots have gone through it, too, but they keep the cabinet stocked by utilizing trades and strategic free agency. Another reason they are significantly ahead of everyone else in terms of consistent success. Best franchise in the league by a mile.

2. Injury prone draft picks

Mike Neal can't stay healthy. Even this year he never practices. Clay is hurt annually and misses a few games. Perry is consistently hurt. Brad Jones is always hurt. The linebackers consistently yet - not surprising given the injury epidemic there. At least Hawk is available. That's more than we can say for the rest.

3. Poor drafting

I think TT is a little overrated and a lot of his success can be attributed to Rodgers and Favre. Having said that, have to credit him with Rodgers. It seems to me that the quality of drafts have really dropped over the past 3-4 years when McKenzie, Schneider, the dude in KC, etc departing.

He hasn't drafted a star since 2009. We can give him epic credit for Clay, but Raji is a pretty big bust in my opinion for his draft position. Bulaga (can't stay on the field), Sherrod (Can't get on the field), Perry (Can't stay on the field) and Jones (Can't get on the field) have not been impressive at all for #1 picks. The #2 picks haven't been great, either.

I'm not suggesting TT has to go or anything like that, but it is clear that he is responsible for the quality of the roster and it is significantly less talented than the 2010 super bowl team.

Except that some had suggested that this was the most talented team yet.

[call_me_ishmael]

2011 Draft:
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/119365564.html

Starters: Cobb

Sherrod, Cobb, House and Taylor are the only players left on the roster. None are key contributors beyond Cobb.



2010 Draft:
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/91770084.html

Starters:
Morgan Burnett
Mike Neal

Every pick is still on the roster.


2009 Draft:
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/43604117.html

Starters:
Raji, Matthews, Lang, Jones

The rest aren't on the roster anymore

2008 Draft:
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/43604092.html

Starters:
Nelson, Finley, Sitton

Flynn was a #7. The rest are gone.


In general, poor drafting.

Out of the starters, here's how I rate them:

Cobb - Good starter
Burnett - Bad to Average starter
Neal - Average when healthy, rarely healthy
Raji - Average to below average starter
Matthew - All-star
Lang - Very good
Jones - Below average
Nelson - Very good
Finley - Below average, rarely healthy
Sitton - All-star

I think a lot of the problems can be based on 2010 and 2011. Too soon to evaluate 2012 but it's not looking good. We should have 6 starters from 2010 and 2011 combined to declare it a "good" draft by the Ron Wolf theory. We have 3. Two bad drafts in my opinion.

[red]

2011 Draft:
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/119365564.html

Starters: Cobb

Sherrod, Cobb, House and Taylor are the only players left on the roster. None are key contributors beyond Cobb.



2010 Draft:
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/91770084.html

Starters:
Morgan Burnett
Mike Neal

Every pick is still on the roster.


2009 Draft:
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/43604117.html

Starters:
Raji, Matthews, Lang, Jones

The rest aren't on the roster anymore

2008 Draft:
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/43604092.html

Starters:
Nelson, Finley, Sitton

Flynn was a #7. The rest are gone.


In general, poor drafting.

Out of the starters, here's how I rate them:

Cobb - Good starter
Burnett - Bad to Average starter
Neal - Average when healthy, rarely healthy
Raji - Average to below average starter
Matthew - All-star
Lang - Very good
Jones - Below average
Nelson - Very good
Finley - Below average, rarely healthy
Sitton - All-star

I think a lot of the problems can be based on 2010 and 2011. Too soon to evaluate 2012 but it's not looking good. We should have 6 starters from 2010 and 2011 combined to declare it a "good" draft by the Ron Wolf theory. We have 3. Two bad drafts in my opinion.

and like i said in this thread on somewhere else on here

when you have the turnover we have, and when you only try and use one sourse to build your team (the draft), you HAVE to fine 4 or 5 starters in each draft.

thats tough as shit to do, and TT's not getting it done by just drafting.

we gotta start looking for some help in other sources. it shouldn't come down to finding the best undrafted free agent on the market, when you need a quality starter

[mraynrand]

"I think a lot of the problems can be based on 2010 and 2011. Too soon to evaluate 2012 but it's not looking good. We should have 6 starters from 2010 and 2011 combined to declare it a "good" draft by the Ron Wolf theory. We have 3. Two bad drafts in my opinion."

It just seems weird to focus on the current starters. 2010 netted Bulaga, Quarless, and Starks - all who have started and been very effective at times - and all who have missed extensive time due to injury. Wilson and Outhouse provided some depth, though in the case of Outhouse, it was pretty lousy. Perhaps Thompson should be able to better draft guys who won't get injured, but I don't know how that evaluation works.

Anyway, if you're calling 2010 a bad draft, I disagree - especially considering how low they start in each round.

[pbmax]

I don't think you can get 4-5 starters out of each draft. That's an entire starting lineup in 4-5 years. Unless you are drafting in the top of each round, there just aren't good odds on that.

You have to get 3-4, have a few play into their 30s. The real difficulty is finding Rodgers and Matthews without picking in the top of each round.

[Rutnstrut]

a) Clay won't bitch
b) Clay can play in any defensive system invented. He is a football player, a complete player, and most importantly and instinctive player.

Now if we could only add C) Clay is a very durable player.

[red]

I don't think you can get 4-5 starters out of each draft. That's an entire starting lineup in 4-5 years. Unless you are drafting in the top of each round, there just aren't good odds on that.

You have to get 3-4, have a few play into their 30s. The real difficulty is finding Rodgers and Matthews without picking in the top of each round.

except we really don't like guys who play into their 30's. a-rod is probably the exception

of the 4 or 5 guys over 30 on the roster, all of them but a-rod have a really good chance of playing for another team next season

[woodbuck27]

"I think a lot of the problems can be based on 2010 and 2011. Too soon to evaluate 2012 but it's not looking good. We should have 6 starters from 2010 and 2011 combined to declare it a "good" draft by the Ron Wolf theory. We have 3. Two bad drafts in my opinion."

It just seems weird to focus on the current starters. 2010 netted Bulaga, Quarless, and Starks - all who have started and been very effective at times - and all who have missed extensive time due to injury. Wilson and Outhouse provided some depth, though in the case of Outhouse, it was pretty lousy. Perhaps Thompson should be able to better draft guys who won't get injured, but I don't know how that evaluation works.

Anyway, if you're calling 2010 a bad draft, I disagree - especially considering how low they start in each round.

Come on 'M' that excuse or draft position won't sell.

When TT calls in his first Round one selection he's picking at NO. 1.

The 2010 TT draft will go down in history as Pick one:

a) a good draft?

b) a bad draft?

Well all of the picks are still around and still being assessed. A huge loss for us in TC with Bryan Bulaga ending his season on Aug. 4, 2013 being placed on season ending IR.

Next best from that draft..a not consistent or disappointing now S Morgan Burnett.

Place Mike Neal, CJ Wilson, Andrew Quarless and James Starks in the ... ' Where are they going? ' FILE.

Place Marshal Newhouse in the ... 'Will TT have mercy on him, because of need on the OL ' FILE.

I'll be so bold as to predict that the future will yawn at that draft.

[bobblehead]

except we really don't like guys who play into their 30's. a-rod is probably the exception

of the 4 or 5 guys over 30 on the roster, all of them but a-rod have a really good chance of playing for another team next season

4 or 5 starters per draft? Great Googly Moogly. Do you also get 7 backups to be proportional to the roster? Thats 11-12 players a year in a 7 round draft...then you bitch at TT for trading down to aquire picks.

[red]

4 or 5 starters per draft? Great Googly Moogly. Do you also get 7 backups to be proportional to the roster? Thats 11-12 players a year in a 7 round draft...then you bitch at TT for trading down to aquire picks.

do the math

we need 22 starters

rookie contracts are 3 years for first rounders and 4 years for second rounders. if guys cost too much (jennings) or aren't that great (raji) we'll let them go after their rookie deal is up

a few fall through the cracks like tramon, a-rod and jolly that they keep until 30 or beyond, but most won't make it here until 30

i'd say about 6 years is the average lifespan of a green bay player draftee. so 22 starters divided by 6 years and you get just shy of 4 starters per year

throw in the fact that you need good backups that can step up if you're starters go down, and you have to hit on almost all your picks

which i think we can all agree is pretty impossible

which brings me to my conclusion. USE FREE AGENCY

i'm open to other math if you can come up with some, but this is the way i look at it

[bobblehead]

do the math

we need 22 starters

rookie contracts are 3 years for first rounders and 4 years for second rounders. if guys cost too much (jennings) or aren't that great (raji) we'll let them go after their rookie deal is up

a few fall through the cracks like tramon, a-rod and jolly that they keep until 30 or beyond, but most won't make it here until 30

i'd say about 6 years is the average lifespan of a green bay player draftee. so 22 starters divided by 6 years and you get just shy of 4 starters per year

throw in the fact that you need good backups that can step up if you're starters go down, and you have to hit on almost all your picks

which i think we can all agree is pretty impossible

which brings me to my conclusion. USE FREE AGENCY

i'm open to other math if you can come up with some, but this is the way i look at it

I think upon further analysis you will find that your numbers are off. I can't swear, but I think all rookie contracts are 4 years (Raji is in his 4th year, clay got upped early). I would say 6 years might be fair, but there are undrafted guys that pan out as well. They also factor into the math. That would bring your number a lot closer to 3 than 4.

Lets bring salary cap into the mix. You can only sign so many guys who are past their 4th year, and those guys always cost more. Now you must choose, do you resign your own, or do you shop? If you think TT drafts inferior and his players aren't worth as much as others, then you shop. Its a zero sum game. 53 man rosters, and salary cap. Any FA you grab is someone another GM didn't resign, now he has money to take Cobb or Shields off your hands.

On offense we have done very well playing this game. On defense, not so much. Tramon getting hurt messed a few things up. So did Woodson getting old. I think we may see another Pickett type signing this year. If there is a safety or MLB worth the coin, TT may delve into it. If Raji won't sign for a reasonable number and there is some talent to get, he might go after it. On the flip side, if there is a bunch of ho hum out there, and some guys who will cost us shields or cobb, then he might decide to sit tight and resign his own...again, its a zero sum game.

[bobblehead]

One other point. I think with the salary cap being static with the new CBA, TT has primed himself to be in position to take advantage of the fire sale some teams are going to be forced into. While we were signing guys like JJones and Finley to 2 and 3 year deals other teams were still acting like the cap was going up 15% a year.

I could be wrong, and TT sits on his hands again, but I think we might see him snag a few bargains in the next 2 years.

[red]

and pickett type signings is all i'm asking for, not woodson signings

2 or 3 guys in that pickett range would make me very happy

[woodbuck27]

Fr. post #61 ... call - me - Ishmael poster

Cobb - Good starter

Burnett - Bad to Average starter

Neal - Average when healthy, rarely healthy (an UFA that should be considered but his oft injured status is a concern)

X Raji X- Average to below average starter (ohh don't get me started... blow him up)

Matthew - All-star (injury prone and a little jacked up)

Lang - Very good

?Jones? - Below average ... an UFA and extend if not to costly.

Nelson - Very good

Finley - Below average, rarely healthy ...Good as gone !

Sitton - All-star

[Fritz]

Now that they don't need to think about cap space for Finley, and now that Raji looks like he's played himself out of an 8 mill per year contract, I'd like to see this team devote its attention to re-signing Sam Shields and James Jones.

If there's a free agent defensive lineman or inside linebacker or safety who really can play and is not going to gut the sal cap, go for it. But it doesn't seem that player is out there.

[pbmax]

Drafted Rookie contracts are for four years and the top of the first round gets a fifth year option. There can be no re-negotiation of any rookie deal until AFTER the 3rd year.

[Rutnstrut]

One other point. I think with the salary cap being static with the new CBA, TT has primed himself to be in position to take advantage of the fire sale some teams are going to be forced into. While we were signing guys like JJones and Finley to 2 and 3 year deals other teams were still acting like the cap was going up 15% a year.

I could be wrong, and TT sits on his hands again, but I think we might see him snag a few bargains in the next 2 years.

That would be great, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

[bobblehead]

and pickett type signings is all i'm asking for, not woodson signings

2 or 3 guys in that pickett range would make me very happy

Especially if one was a safety and one was an ILB

[bobblehead]

That would be great, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

Fans tend to be emotional without looking at the whole picture. I have made my living out of looking at entire pictures. In the beginning TT was very active overturning this roster using every venue. After the new CBA he all but abandoned FA because teams were acting like they had under the old deal. Now that things have panned out I think he may delve back into it, but not at the expense of losing his own guys he wants to resign.

Lets look at things objectively. Since we won a superbowl and then went 15-1, how many FA's of our own have we lost that we wanted to keep? Mind you we even ate all the dead money on Collins in the process. We have lost talent to age and injury, but I would say the only guy I wanted that we lost was Jenkins and I still think we offered him at least what he ended up signing for in Philly. You could argue that we overpaid Finley, but it was a 2 year deal...unheard of. And that deal has us right where we want to be at the moment. Able to resign Clay, Rodgers, and most others that we actually want to keep. Nah, I won't hold my breath, but I just might exhale an "I told you so."

[mraynrand]

The beauty of being on the "We shoulda signed a great FA at position X for a favorable price" argument is that you don't really have to back up your argument. Since TT didn't 'pull the trigger' on that mythical team and season-saving guy, there's no way to prove your argument wrong. And if your preferred FA signed with another team and flopped, well, that's because the other team didn't use him properly.

[woodbuck27]

The beauty of being on the "We shoulda signed a great FA at position X for a favorable price" argument is that you don't really have to back up your argument. Since TT didn't 'pull the trigger' on that mythical team and season-saving guy, there's no way to prove your argument wrong. And if your preferred FA signed with another team and flopped, well, that's because the other team didn't use him properly.

http://packerrats.com/image.php?u=130&dateline=1388159099

The Abominable Snowman is here !

Who knew he's a Packer fan?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Abominable_Snowmen

[woodbuck27]

TT: What's out there that we can afford to bring in? We need help with all those 'just a guys' leaving my ship.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ2wruOZl6op-RbnnUsGdHj1gSMqO5w1SU82j2R4yDBfcBytoSO

Well Ted !