FOR THOSE WHO HATE CAPERS.....

[Bretsky]

I'd like an analysis that breaks down the talent on this defense and argues he has enough to work with.

Call me still on the fence. I bless the idea of letting DOM go and finding another DC. It just might be time to make a change for change sade

But I keep wrestling with the idea...simply put...is it really DOM or has the Packers organization failed DOM in not giving him the cards to play with.

Has the Blackjack dealer deals DOM a 6 and then turned over an ace ? Are the odds stacked against him week in and week out ????

McGinn has sources through the NFL and he always notes DOM is very well thoghts of in the NFL Circle.


With some breakdown of what he has to work with, has GB failed Dom Capers or has Dom failed us ????

[bobblehead]

I think the D is somewhat weak up the middle. I have said so many times. I also think they specialize too much. As Pb said in another post, we can't stop the run in nickel and we can't stop the pass in base. Its time to work some of these guys to death in both, not specialize so much, and be effective across the board (and not worry about being dominant at anything).

[Bretsky]

agree completely with you bobblehead. My gut tells me when we take a step back and look at all of the players individually......we just don't have the talent to succeed.
I just want to be average again there.

[mraynrand]

Capers' schemes put Francois, Jolly, Matthews, Perry, Neal, Pickett, Jones, Burnett, Hayward, and everyone else who was injured in a position to be injured and therefore ruin the defense. Same goes for Stubby and Slocum. And Thompson for drafting an injury prone team. Time to start over. Bring in Dwight Clark and Carmen Policy.

[bobblehead]

I don't completely buy the argument of guys who are playing hurt. The entire NFL plays hurt. I think Capers biggest problem is that his guys don't play with heart. That is also on MM. MM and Dom are even keeled guys. That bodes well much of the time, but I think you must have fire on D. We need more guys like Daniels and Jolly who are animated and psychotic.

Hawk is the epitome of this. Very assignment sure, never losing his cool. I think one good destructive safety would do wonders for us...unfortunately John Lynch is old and retired. BRING BACK BIGBY!!!

[HarveyWallbangers]

The Packers defense played better in 2009 and 2010 than the last few years with comparable talent. That's continued a disturbing trend in Capers' career. He turns defenses around and starts off well in places but his defenses trend to regress after the first two years.

[Tony Oday]

Capers sucks, proof is his hair even doesn't listen to him.

[pbmax]

There are a lot of mismatched parts on this Defense.

Raji has been asked to stay home and keep the LBs clean. Worked for three weeks but then Pickett got hurt. Raji in stay at home and read mode is not effective at shedding blocks (when you are as fast as Raji off the snap, you may never have needed to bump bellies and hand fight in tight quarters).

Remember all of Adrian Peterson's jogs along the LOS, finding no hole only to cut back and get around the end? Same this happens this year despite three OLBs who can set an edge (Matthews, Perry and Neal). What is missing? A ILB who can force that edge by recovering OR a safety to close off the wide outside. A healthy Perry or experienced Neal would not be a bad thing here either. Bigger corners might help.

If my theory about Burnett and Hawk is correct (they are good and will improve no more) then the Packers need better complements than Doc Jennings, Brad Jones and Jamari Lattimore.

Pass rush; I have not seen pressure stats in a while, but its feast or famine with pressure. Seems like its sack or bust with the Packers pass rush. This has been a problem with 2007 with Matthews, Jenkins, Raji and Woodson providing only temporary relief. There is still not a pass rush standout on this team.

The talent on the D is not comparable to 2009-10 (Woodson, Collins) and I bet virtually every D coordinator hired improves his D for two years (unless you are Monte Kiffin and asked to install a D you don't have the played for) before people figure it out on film. After that you need players. What players the Packers have are mismatched and they have several holes. The open question is whether these holes should have been filled by existing talent.

Right now, I think Whitt is the only one with a clear cut case for staying employed among position coaches. Moss has not developed much next to Hawk. Trgo has not gotten through to Raji and still has no natural 3-4 Des (Jones isn't ready). Green has Matthews but both Perry and Neal are works in progress. The best rep among assistant coaches was Darren Perry, but he hasn't found a second safety since Burnett.

[woodbuck27]

Capers' schemes put Francois, Jolly, Matthews, Perry, Neal, Pickett, Jones, Burnett, Hayward, and everyone else who was injured in a position to be injured and therefore ruin the defense. Same goes for Stubby and Slocum. And Thompson for drafting an injury prone team. Time to start over. Bring in Dwight Clark and Carmen Policy.

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSn9A_0Y5R3bZygRWdeJ86YG64FHY0Fk nXDy7QiiwJXJ7VLS3PA

Heck... let's go for the juggler. There goes Ted Thompson ! See Yaa Teddy !!

[Bretsky]

There are a lot of mismatched parts on this Defense.

Raji has been asked to stay home and keep the LBs clean. Worked for three weeks but then Pickett got hurt. Raji in stay at home and read mode is not effective at shedding blocks (when you are as fast as Raji off the snap, you may never have needed to bump bellies and hand fight in tight quarters).

Remember all of Adrian Peterson's jogs along the LOS, finding no hole only to cut back and get around the end? Same this happens this year despite three OLBs who can set an edge (Matthews, Perry and Neal). What is missing? A ILB who can force that edge by recovering OR a safety to close off the wide outside. A healthy Perry or experienced Neal would not be a bad thing here either. Bigger corners might help.

If my theory about Burnett and Hawk is correct (they are good and will improve no more) then the Packers need better complements than Doc Jennings, Brad Jones and Jamari Lattimore.

Pass rush; I have not seen pressure stats in a while, but its feast or famine with pressure. Seems like its sack or bust with the Packers pass rush. This has been a problem with 2007 with Matthews, Jenkins, Raji and Woodson providing only temporary relief. There is still not a pass rush standout on this team.

The talent on the D is not comparable to 2009-10 (Woodson, Collins) and I bet virtually every D coordinator hired improves his D for two years (unless you are Monte Kiffin and asked to install a D you don't have the played for) before people figure it out on film. After that you need players. What players the Packers have are mismatched and they have several holes. The open question is whether these holes should have been filled by existing talent.

Right now, I think Whitt is the only one with a clear cut case for staying employed among position coaches. Moss has not developed much next to Hawk. Trgo has not gotten through to Raji and still has no natural 3-4 Des (Jones isn't ready). Green has Matthews but both Perry and Neal are works in progress. The best rep among assistant coaches was Darren Perry, but he hasn't found a second safety since Burnett.


All good points; we need to draft better on the defensive side of the ball.

Regarding the second safety...it's hard for me to blame Perry. We can't change junk into gold. TT needs to be held accountable for finding the second safety IMO. Hyde might be the shit that sticks there. Otherwise he isn't on our roster.

[Pugger]

I don't completely buy the argument of guys who are playing hurt. The entire NFL plays hurt. I think Capers biggest problem is that his guys don't play with heart. That is also on MM. MM and Dom are even keeled guys. That bodes well much of the time, but I think you must have fire on D. We need more guys like Daniels and Jolly who are animated and psychotic.

Hawk is the epitome of this. Very assignment sure, never losing his cool. I think one good destructive safety would do wonders for us...unfortunately John Lynch is old and retired. BRING BACK BIGBY!!!

I don't know if I'd say that. The guys - save the Turkey day game - have hung in there while teammates were dropping like flies and by some miracle are now in a position to get into the playoffs. I'd like to know how many other teams without their HOF QB and 16 guys on IR would still be scratching and clawing and trying to win games with one hand tied behind their backs. I truly wonder if we have the talent right now - especially up the middle and at safety - or is our depth all that hot when we lost all these guys?

[Bretsky]

I don't know if I'd say that. The guys - save the Turkey day game - have hung in there while teammates were dropping like flies and by some miracle are now in a position to get into the playoffs. I'd like to know how many other teams without their HOF QB and 16 guys on IR would still be scratching and clawing and trying to win games with one hand tied behind their backs. I truly wonder if we have the talent right now - especially up the middle and at safety - or is our depth all that hot when we lost all these guys?


When everybody is healthy IMO our offensive cup is pretty dang full

I think it's a lot more empty on defense and we have some glaring holes that needed to be addressed....like...yesterday

[pbmax]

Wilde's article summing up Matt Flynn's year makes a good point about the Thanksgiving Day game. He went in there without a full practice. Doesn't explain the defensive meltdown in the 2nd half, but it does explain why the offense was NO help.

http://www.espnwisconsin.com/common/page.php?feed=2&id=12411&is_corp=1

[red]

capers is following the exact same pattern that has followed him his whole career

he gets a new job and within a couiple years turns that defense into one of the best in football, then it declines until it is near the bottom and he gets fired

he then moves on to a new team and the process starts all over again

someone on this site posted his ups and downs a few years back that showed this progression very clearly

i don't know why it happens, but it does, and i don't think he's ever brought a team back up after he's taken it to a valley

its time for him to go, his history shows that its time for him to move on to a new team and for us to find a new DC

i also think we have a good amount of talent on d, but like the offensive line, i don't think the sum of all the parts adds up quite right.

say you grade every guy on a 1-5 scale. you go through our starters on D and you might come up with a number around 35 or 40 or so. yet the defense as a whole plays at about a 25 or 30 at best

i do think we need more talent on D at safety and MLB (maybe just one guy at each) but the guys aren't playing as a unit or something. too many guys look confused, too many errors

something needs to change imo

[th87]

I wouldn't know how many more records our defense would need to give up (Kaepernick, Warner, the 2011 defense, etc.) before it would be justified to let Capers go.

It's one thing to be average, or even below average. Quite another to give up *records* at the most inopportune times.

[Bretsky]

capers is following the exact same pattern that has followed him his whole career

he gets a new job and within a couiple years turns that defense into one of the best in football, then it declines until it is near the bottom and he gets fired

he then moves on to a new team and the process starts all over again

someone on this site posted his ups and downs a few years back that showed this progression very clearly

i don't know why it happens, but it does, and i don't think he's ever brought a team back up after he's taken it to a valley

its time for him to go, his history shows that its time for him to move on to a new team and for us to find a new DC

i also think we have a good amount of talent on d, but like the offensive line, i don't think the sum of all the parts adds up quite right.

say you grade every guy on a 1-5 scale. you go through our starters on D and you might come up with a number around 35 or 40 or so. yet the defense as a whole plays at about a 25 or 30 at best

i do think we need more talent on D at safety and MLB (maybe just one guy at each) but the guys aren't playing as a unit or something. too many guys look confused, too many errors

something needs to change imo


I woud put the desperate needs at LB, S, and another CB. At this point I might have been worng about Datone Jones (have not given up) and maybe Matt Elam was our pick
And we also have more needs on the DL after either Pickett and/or Raji bolt.

[Bretsky]

I wouldn't know how many more records our defense would need to give up (Kaepernick, Warner, the 2011 defense, etc.) before it would be justified to let Capers go.

It's one thing to be average, or even below average. Quite another to give up *records* at the most inopportune times.


Nice to see ya posting th.....Hope you are having a wonderful Holiday season !

[red]

I woud put the desperate needs at LB, S, and another CB. At this point I might have been worng about Datone Jones (have not given up) and maybe Matt Elam was our pick
And we also have more needs on the DL after either Pickett and/or Raji bolt.

i don't know about CB

unless shields leaves and tramon is let go

hayward might be back next year i hope, house has showed a lot of potential, but not lately, and hyde is pretty damn good

is hyde moves from CB to S then safety might not be such a big need

and i would like to think the team lets tramon go and resigns shields. so shields, hayward, house and/or hyde doesn't seem so bad

in that case, maybe draft a guy later, but i wouldn't put a real high priority on it

of course, if we let tramon and shields go, then move hyde to S, then CB becomes a massive area of need

[th87]

Nice to see ya posting th.....Hope you are having a wonderful Holiday season !

Thanks buddy! You too. A lot of my posting time is used on the "Save Our Bucks" campaign!

[pbmax]

Article on the ups and downs of the D line: also, it was a good run D through Week 7, statistically speaking. First Bears game was the turning point though I think there were signs earlier.

http://www.packersnews.com/article/20131228/PKR07/312280288/Pete-Dougherty-analysis-Less-certainty-D-line-after-late-season-decline

[Pugger]

Wilde's article summing up Matt Flynn's year makes a good point about the Thanksgiving Day game. He went in there without a full practice. Doesn't explain the defensive meltdown in the 2nd half, but it does explain why the offense was NO help.

http://www.espnwisconsin.com/common/page.php?feed=2&id=12411&is_corp=1

Even in that terrible game our less than stellar D was getting turnovers in the first half but our offense never could take advantage of those. If we had better QB play in that game I wonder if the outcome would have been different...?

[bobblehead]

Wilde's article summing up Matt Flynn's year makes a good point about the Thanksgiving Day game. He went in there without a full practice. Doesn't explain the defensive meltdown in the 2nd half, but it does explain why the offense was NO help.

http://www.espnwisconsin.com/common/page.php?feed=2&id=12411&is_corp=1

I said that not long after I sobered up. That game was set up for disaster. Flynn hadn't had a full practice, short week, off an OT game. Detroit got all psyched up to kick our Rodgerless asses, didn't have to travel, didn't play OT, and was healthy. Recipe for disaster.

[bobblehead]

I woud put the desperate needs at LB, S, and another CB. At this point I might have been worng about Datone Jones (have not given up) and maybe Matt Elam was our pick
And we also have more needs on the DL after either Pickett and/or Raji bolt.

I think Datone and Sherrod (if both are healthy) will be a huge boost to this team.

[bobblehead]

Article on the ups and downs of the D line: also, it was a good run D through Week 7, statistically speaking. First Bears game was the turning point though I think there were signs earlier.

http://www.packersnews.com/article/20131228/PKR07/312280288/Pete-Dougherty-analysis-Less-certainty-D-line-after-late-season-decline

Again, tackling and D in general is about heart and pride. We started the year determined to not suck vs. the run. As we proved we don't, the pride and effort slacked off. Just my 2 cents worth.

[woodbuck27]

Thanks buddy! You too. A lot of my posting time is used on the "Save Our Bucks" campaign!

Hi th87:

Good Luck with that "Save Our Bucks Campaign", Packer fan

WIH is wrong with those in charge of Whitetail Deer Management? You cannot have season after season of taking the good male genes out of a herd and imagine that's anything good.

I'm seeing some concern there as well back home in Sunbury County, New Brunswick, Canada.

It's rare to see a Big Buck of late where my country home is.

That sickens me.

[Rodgers12]

TT needs to be held accountable for finding the second safety IMO.

There's not even a bona fide #1 safety on the roster.

Burnett looks good when he was playing alongside Nick Collins. Now he's trying to fill Collins' shoes; has been average at best.

[Rodgers12]

Hi th87:

Good Luck with that "Save Our Bucks Campaign", Packer fan

WIH is wrong with those in charge of Whitetail Deer Management? You cannot have season after season of taking the good male genes out of a herd and imagine that's anything good.

I'm seeing some concern there as well back home in Sunbury County, New Brunswick, Canada.

It's rare to see a Big Buck of late where my country home is.

That sickens me.

I could be wrong, but I think "Save Our Bucks" is about saving the Milwaukee Bucks, and not Bambi. :)

On a second thought, you do have a good point about bucks and the Bucks: You cannot have season after season of taking the good male genes out of a herd and imagine that's anything good.

The Bucks have been good at getting rid of their good male genes since they traded away Ferdinand Lewis Alcindor, Jr. See Ray Allen, Dirk Nowitski, etc., for more examples.

[woodbuck27]

I could be wrong, but I think "Save Our Bucks" is about saving the Milwaukee Bucks, and not Bambi. :)

OK ... I'm thinking Canadian.

Still when it comes to $bucks$; The Bucks or Whitetail Bucks I say:

Save em all. :whist:

[th87]

I could be wrong, but I think "Save Our Bucks" is about saving the Milwaukee Bucks, and not Bambi. :)

On a second thought, you do have a good point about bucks and the Bucks: You cannot have season after season of taking the good male genes out of a herd and imagine that's anything good.

The Bucks have been good at getting rid of their good male genes since they traded away Ferdinand Lewis Alcindor, Jr. See Ray Allen, Dirk Nowitski, etc., for more examples.

Ha correct you are (http://saveourbucks.com). I was thinking Woodbuck was saying the same thing. But it isn't trades that screw the Milwaukee Bucks - it's the haphazard chase for mediocrity and a refusal to rebuild. Think Selig Brewers or 80s Packers.

Sorry to derail the discussion.

[packrulz]

Any D will suffer if they are on the field too long, I don't blame Capers for that. Too many 3 and outs. It's remarkable the Packers are still in contention since they lost their starting QB, LT, WR, TE, and many defensive players to injury. Losing Woodson hurt, Jennings has been getting burned, Burnett is trying but needs help. Jury is still out on Richardson. Hyde can play safety but he's not ideal size. TWill may never be back to what he was. House needs more time. ILB could be better. Brad Jones is failing, Hawk is steady but doesn't have coverage skills. Pick is getting old, Raji is trying but needs help. I do blame Capers for the awful tackling, too often the players are in correct position to make the play, yet can't tackle the guy. Grab, grab, grab! Lombardi would be pissed. Another poster remarked that the D is not inspired, I agree. Good defenses love to tackle, inflict pain. Anyway, they need more talent at DL, LB, FS, & CB. Firing Capers would be a mistake.

[Rodgers12]

OK ... I'm thinking Canadian.

Still when it comes to $bucks$; The Bucks or Whitetail Bucks I say:

Save em all. :whist:

As a non-hunter, I agree. :)

[Rodgers12]

Ha correct you are (http://saveourbucks.com). I was thinking Woodbuck was saying the same thing. But it isn't trades that screw the Milwaukee Bucks - it's the haphazard chase for mediocrity and a refusal to rebuild. Think Selig Brewers or 80s Packers.

Sorry to derail the discussion.

Ah, I see. Don't follow the Bucks much so not sure what's up with them lately.

IMHO, public funds to should not be used to fund sports teams owned by billionaire "entrepreneurs," but lets just leave it at that before Red starts complaining. :)

[denverYooper]

Any D will suffer if they are on the field too long, I don't blame Capers for that. Too many 3 and outs. It's remarkable the Packers are still in contention since they lost their starting QB, LT, WR, TE, and many defensive players to injury. Losing Woodson hurt, Jennings has been getting burned, Burnett is trying but needs help. Jury is still out on Richardson. Hyde can play safety but he's not ideal size. TWill may never be back to what he was. House needs more time. ILB could be better. Brad Jones is failing, Hawk is steady but doesn't have coverage skills. Pick is getting old, Raji is trying but needs help. I do blame Capers for the awful tackling, too often the players are in correct position to make the play, yet can't tackle the guy. Grab, grab, grab! Lombardi would be pissed. Another poster remarked that the D is not inspired, I agree. Good defenses love to tackle, inflict pain. Anyway, they need more talent at DL, LB, FS, & CB. Firing Capers would be a mistake.

The other added problem with non-Rodgers QBs is that they turned the ball over a lot more than Rodgers did, often killing points or giving points (Tolzien's INT in the EZ in Philly, deep in Giants' territory, Flynn's pick 6, fumble deep in Steelers territory). The Packers backups threw 10 INTs in 8 games (counting 1st Chicago game). Since 2009, Rodgers's only season with >10 INTs was 2009, with 11. Now, most of the INTs were on Tolzien, who threw 5 in 2 games, but Flynn was good for 1 per game and some fumbles that hurt the team. Rodgers has been one of the best QBs in terms of fumbles.

This in no way absolves the defense for some horrid stretches of play, but it exacerbated their floundering mediocrity as a unit.

[denverYooper]

The interesting thing to me right now is that they have been a little better since they sat House and gave Richardson more snaps. They're still prone to leaking yards and plays, but since the stand at the end of the Atlanta game they've been better on 3rd downs (Dal 22%, Pit 20%) where they've been pretty bad all year, and they have been holding some decent QBs (Ryan, Romo, Roethlisburger) to ~80 ratings. They'd been allowing middle- and bottom-tier QBs to light them up to the tune of 100+ pretty regularly all year.

Also, this team feels better in cold weather. Guys like Hyde, Richardson, Boykin, and Lacy get a boost when the track slows down and their abilities as football players can shine because they don't give up as much speed.

This isn't a case for Dom to be retained because I would be fine with new blood. What it is, for me, is a case against the whole staff's willingness to stick with underperforming guys for too long. Of course, they didn't have the option to play Richardson until lately.

[bobblehead]

There's not even a bona fide #1 safety on the roster.

Burnett looks good when he was playing alongside Nick Collins. Now he's trying to fill Collins' shoes; has been average at best.

He looked like shit next to collins, what games were you watching. He has developed to average.

[bobblehead]

Ah, I see. Don't follow the Bucks much so not sure what's up with them lately.

IMHO, public funds to should not be used to fund sports teams owned by billionaire "entrepreneurs," but lets just leave it at that before Red starts complaining. :)

Hey, we found a point of agreement...lets continue this bipartisanship in FYI

[pbmax]

Again, tackling and D in general is about heart and pride. We started the year determined to not suck vs. the run. As we proved we don't, the pride and effort slacked off. Just my 2 cents worth.

It is about heart and pride from the point of view of being willing to hit, pursue and bring someone down.

However, there is a technique aspect as well, knowing your leverage, knowing where help is, taking correct angles and eating grass (just heard that one this year) to close space between you and the ball carrier if its one v one.

There are improvements to be had in both fields, let's put it that way.

[pbmax]

Bad news everyone.

Rumors have it that IF the Lions dump Schwartz they would want to sire Bill O'Brien from Penn State.

That is far too sensible a move for the Lions. It also might mean competent coaching in 3 of 4 NFC North cities.

Ian Rapoport ‏@RapSheet 20m
If there is a Lions opening, Bill O’Brien will be candidate RT @dmoran137: @RapSheet why wouldn't he wait for the lions job in a few days

[woodbuck27]

The other added problem with non-Rodgers QBs is that they turned the ball over a lot more than Rodgers did, often killing points or giving points (Tolzien's INT in the EZ in Philly, deep in Giants' territory, Flynn's pick 6, fumble deep in Steelers territory). The Packers backups threw 10 INTs in 8 games (counting 1st Chicago game). Since 2009, Rodgers's only season with >10 INTs was 2009, with 11. Now, most of the INTs were on Tolzien, who threw 5 in 2 games, but Flynn was good for 1 per game and some fumbles that hurt the team. Rodgers has been one of the best QBs in terms of fumbles.

This in no way absolves the defense for some horrid stretches of play, but it exacerbated their floundering mediocrity as a unit.

We'll see if AR can pull a sheet over that dumpy chair today.

[woodbuck27]

Bad news everyone.

Rumors have it that IF the Lions dump Schwartz they would want to sire Bill O'Brien from Penn State.

That is far too sensible a move for the Lions. It also might mean competent coaching in 3 of 4 NFC North cities.

Ian Rapoport ‏@RapSheet 20m
If there is a Lions opening, Bill O’Brien will be candidate RT @dmoran137: @RapSheet why wouldn't he wait for the lions job in a few days

I'm getting Bill O'Brian in Houston.

He's ( Bill O'Brian's) the hot talk now and things seem to be cooling off and Lovie Smith as the next Houston Texans HC.

[pbmax]

I'm getting Bill O'Brian in Houston.

He's ( Bill O'Brian's) the hot talk now and things seem to be cooling off and Lovie Smith as the next Houston Texans HC.

According to Rappaport at NFLN, he interviewed with 4 teams last year. So it seems his rescue mission in Happy Valley (Penn State) was a short term assist.

[Fritz]

Sounds like he wants back into the NFL. If he waits a few days, he'll have a few more openings to interview for.

[wist43]

As I've said, I haven't watched much football this year - so this year notwithstanding, I did watch the Pitt game, so my same arguments against Capers still stand.

I do not blame the players. I think we have enough talent on def to win. It is Capers job to take that talent, and get max production out of what he has to work with.

In our front seven (six by Capers' way of thinking) we have far more talent invested in the DL; yet Capers insists on playing a 2-4 the majority of the time, or at least a far greater percentage of the time than is warranted. Injuries seem to have made things a mess, but I think the analysis would still stand regardless of the injuries. We're simply not very talented on the 2nd level, i.e. the linebackers.

If Capers is determined to play pass on virtually every down, I would prefer he do it with pressure, crowding the line and showing multiple fronts. He lines up in that static 2-4, and may occassionally bring an exotic blitz, but then he reverts right back to vanilla. Combine that with miscommunications in the back end, and you have a recipe for disaster down in and down out.

Capers has to go. Injuries might be a valid reason to point to for not putting up stellar numbers, but a good DC would find a way to stop the bleeding, and find an identity that is at least somewhat effective with the troops he does have available. In no way has Capers done that. He needs to go.

[beveaux1]

In the Bears game, I didn't notice as many 2 man fronts, but what I did notice was our 3rd string LBs aggressively moving to the middle and leaving their gap wide open. Forte and Bush were consistently taking advantage of this aggressiveness. This might have been something that they were asked to do to cover for the weakness of their 3rd string MLB or it may have been poor gap integrity.

It seems highly unusual that the run defense completely fell apart after Rodgers went down. More likely, it was a combination of the run-stopping DL playing at 60 to 80 percent because of injury, not able to handle blockers to keep them off the 2nd level LBs, and the LBs either playing with injuries and being a step slow or being 3rd string and not ready to play at the level of the starters

Even when our starting LBs (minus Hawk) have been on the field in the last half of the season they've been playing with leg, foot, and hand problems. Without a doubt, this has limited their effectiveness. What does this tell you about our back ups and 3rd stringers if we continue to try to play them at 70%.

I expect that the playoffs will continue to expose our many weaknesses on defense. I'm not sure any of our coordinators or position coaches are to blame. They've dealt with an incredible amount of injuries and kept our heads above water....barely.

With star players taking up such a high percentage of our cap, this is a fact of life in the NFL. Back ups will be brought in on the cheap and their level of play will be far below the starters. Look at how we played in the preseason both offensively and defensively and you can see what this level of play is. The beginning of next season will show the true potential of the defense as the beginning of this season did.

[gbgary]

FOR THOSE WHO HATE CAPERS.....

nothing's changed.

i wish we'd get back to bump and run no matter who the dc is. al and chuck did it right.

[pbmax]

nothing's changed.

i wish we'd get back to bump and run no matter who the dc is. al and chuck did it right.

They played a lot of man versus the Bears, didn't they? Everytime I looked at it, it was man outside.

I really think the D is caught, especially in nickel, trying to cover for the 2 man line. Everyone is crashing inside and there is only one guy, the OLB with outside contain. That play the Bears ran with the one RB headed wide for a pitch or something and another getting an inside handoff for an off tackle run is something they will see again. Lattimore got sucked right up into the fake.

[gbgary]

They played a lot of man versus the Bears, didn't they? Everytime I looked at it, it was man outside.



man is one thing but jamming at the line is another. we stopped that few years ago.

[pbmax]

man is one thing but jamming at the line is another. we stopped that few years ago.

That's true, Shields plays press and doesn't jam. TWill occasionally jams but he is no Al Harris.

[call_me_ishmael]

Did Morgan Burnett even ever play next to Collins? Rookie in 2010 w/ torn ACL, Collins career ended game 2 of 2011 against the Panthers. Am I missing something? He played, what, 3 weeks, next to Nick?

[Joemailman]

Did Morgan Burnett even ever play next to Collins? Rookie in 2010 w/ torn ACL, Collins career ended game 2 of 2011 against the Panthers. Am I missing something? He played, what, 3 weeks, next to Nick?

You are close. Burnett got hurt in the 4th game of 2010, and Collins got hurt in the 2nd game of 2011.

[BZnDallas]

As I've said, I haven't watched much football this year - so this year notwithstanding, I did watch the Pitt game, so my same arguments against Capers still stand.

I do not blame the players. I think we have enough talent on def to win. It is Capers job to take that talent, and get max production out of what he has to work with.

In our front seven (six by Capers' way of thinking) we have far more talent invested in the DL; yet Capers insists on playing a 2-4 the majority of the time, or at least a far greater percentage of the time than is warranted. Injuries seem to have made things a mess, but I think the analysis would still stand regardless of the injuries. We're simply not very talented on the 2nd level, i.e. the linebackers.

If Capers is determined to play pass on virtually every down, I would prefer he do it with pressure, crowding the line and showing multiple fronts. He lines up in that static 2-4, and may occassionally bring an exotic blitz, but then he reverts right back to vanilla. Combine that with miscommunications in the back end, and you have a recipe for disaster down in and down out.

Capers has to go. Injuries might be a valid reason to point to for not putting up stellar numbers, but a good DC would find a way to stop the bleeding, and find an identity that is at least somewhat effective with the troops he does have available. In no way has Capers done that. He needs to go.



I agree with all of this Wist... i believe the talent is there... that 2 down lineman defense has to go...

[MJZiggy]

That's true, Shields plays press and doesn't jam. TWill occasionally jams but he is no Al Harris.Yes, but Al Harris is Al Harris and he's Al Harris for a reason, and part of the reason he's Al Harris is because he was great at knocking receivers off in the first 5 yards...

[woodbuck27]

Yes, but Al Harris is Al Harris and he's Al Harris for a reason, and part of the reason he's Al Harris is because he was great at knocking receivers off in the first 5 yards...

Let me see if I can understand that post:

OK Let A = Al Harris:

So .... A = A = A = A

:?: Eh

[pbmax]

I agree with all of this Wist... i believe the talent is there... that 2 down lineman defense has to go...

Its the standard nickel for all 3-4 teams. The question isn't why does he use it, the question is why is it leaking run yards like never before?

No one expected the success of 2010 to last forever esp. without Howard Green taking up two gaps himself. But its gone too far the other way.

The obvious answer is to scale back its use which has happened the last two years I believe, though only marginally. But its mainly a tool to matchup to 3 WR sets. If you stay base, then a LB or safety is going to be in a mismatch. And given the pass defense in the Packers backend, that is not a good thing. Leaking running plays is bad, but a 30 yard pass play to the nickel receiver against your LB is worse.

[pbmax]

Yes, but Al Harris is Al Harris and he's Al Harris for a reason, and part of the reason he's Al Harris is because he was great at knocking receivers off in the first 5 yards...

And there are very few true bump and run corners left.

[Carolina_Packer]

I wonder if they do tailor what they try and do based on the strength and availability of what they have on the roster, or does he try and do the same things no matter who he has available.

Where is Datone Jones? I didn't expect highlight reel stuff every week, but did expect him to show out a bit more than he did this year. Did Green Bay not know how to use him? Was he ineffective with the chances he had? He looked like a very sudden player at UCLA, and they talked about him play 5 tech (I had visions of Cullen Jenkins), but somehow he seemed invisible. Did he to you guys? Perhaps now that they are starving for creating pressure, they will turn him loose. I just expected some kind of visual proof of why he was drafted in the first round.

[bobblehead]

They played a lot of man versus the Bears, didn't they? Everytime I looked at it, it was man outside.

I really think the D is caught, especially in nickel, trying to cover for the 2 man line. Everyone is crashing inside and there is only one guy, the OLB with outside contain. That play the Bears ran with the one RB headed wide for a pitch or something and another getting an inside handoff for an off tackle run is something they will see again. Lattimore got sucked right up into the fake.

Yep, lot of man today. Also, what wist said is true though. We had 2nd and 3, 2nd and 4, and we lined up in 2-4. Why in earth if you really want to put an extra DB on the field can't we go 3-3 so we have some fatties to stop the fricking run. Early in the season we ran true 3-4 a bit more and we were effective, then we miraculously abandoned it.

[bobblehead]

Yes, but Al Harris is Al Harris and he's Al Harris for a reason, and part of the reason he's Al Harris is because he was great at knocking receivers off in the first 5 yards...

To quote Roy Williams "He is like a gorilla. He latches onto you with those long arms and you are done. You aren't going to run your route properly"

[wist43]

Its the standard nickel for all 3-4 teams. The question isn't why does he use it, the question is why is it leaking run yards like never before?

No one expected the success of 2010 to last forever esp. without Howard Green taking up two gaps himself. But its gone too far the other way.

The obvious answer is to scale back its use which has happened the last two years I believe, though only marginally. But its mainly a tool to matchup to 3 WR sets. If you stay base, then a LB or safety is going to be in a mismatch. And given the pass defense in the Packers backend, that is not a good thing. Leaking running plays is bad, but a 30 yard pass play to the nickel receiver against your LB is worse.

Max, Capers had the 2-4 alignment on the field when Forte ran it in from 1st and goal at the 1!!!

I don't care what personnel the Bears have on the field - they had 3 wides, 2 RB's - you can't play small in goal line defense. As it was, the Bears lined up in the I, and Forte simply walked up the middle for the TD.

More teams may be running a 2-4 in nickel situations, and to be sure it is more of a 4-2 with the outside rushers just being LB's, but you simply can't run that as your base defense - which is what Capers does more often than not. I didn't watch the whole game, but the majority of what I did watch, Capers was in a 2-4 regardless of down and distance - and to only have 2 DL on the field with 1st and goal from the 1?? There's no excuse for that.

[Carolina_Packer]

Dom probably could have run 2-4 on most any down in 1994 with these guys:

Chad Brown RILB, Levon Kirkland LILB, Greg Lloyd ROLB, Kevin Greene LOLB, Rod Woodson LCB, Deon Figures RCB, Carnell Lake SS, Darren Perry FS, Joel Steed NT, Ray Seals RDE, Gerald Williams LDE, Brentson Buckner (rotational) RDE

but in 1994 he wouldn't have had to because it was much more of a running league. You can make hay with the guys above, no matter what scheme you are running because real players can play any scheme because they confront and tackle better, they communicate together better, they maintain their responsibility better and if the play breaks down, they make plays

The 2013 Packers have had injuries for sure, and I won't bother listing the players as you know who they are. The point is that coaches look like a genius when they have the guys I listed above. They look very average to below average when they have what is collectively stocking our defensive roster. It's players; it's always the players. They are the ones good enough or not good enough to make plays, run to the ball, recognize coverages, communicate with teammates, stay in their gap, hustle to make tackes, etc. This defense is not the 1994 Steelers, no doubt. But through a combination of player injuries, being forced to play younger players because of injuries, plus some lack of development of recent draft picks, our defensive fire power is not where it needs to be.

That said, hopefully Capers did try and tailor, perhaps even simplify some of what he did to match the ability/strengths of his available personnel. What he can't do is be in their heads when they are on the field and say, OK, it's time to be tough and tackle properly, this is how you need to react when XYZ happens. Don't get me wrong, I'm willing to let Capers go because we need to do something to try and improve the defense, but I lay blame on our players as much as Capers, but understand that it's easier to change the DC and get a different voice in there. I think we can all agree that we need some better luck with injuries and that we all want to see a Rob Ryan type turn-around with the next DC (assuming M3 changes no matter what happens the rest of the way).

[bobblehead]

I agree with Wists point for 2 reasons. It simply makes sense that on 2nd and 3, first and goal at the 1 you need 3 fatties up front. Second, early in the season we ran a lot more 3 man fronts and we were much better on D overall. We don't get to the QB with 4 LB's, so that can't be the good argument for pulling a fatty for a CB when you go nickel.

If we run 2-4 all day vs. SF, they will eat our lunch. We need the fatties up front, collapsing the pocket on kapernick, 1 spy at LB, and flood the secondary.

[pbmax]

More teams may be running a 2-4 in nickel situations, and to be sure it is more of a 4-2 with the outside rushers just being LB's, but you simply can't run that as your base defense - which is what Capers does more often than not. I didn't watch the whole game, but the majority of what I did watch, Capers was in a 2-4 regardless of down and distance - and to only have 2 DL on the field with 1st and goal from the 1?? There's no excuse for that.

You are right, he is not going to nickel based on down and distance, he is doing it to match personnel. Like I said somewhere, he would rather leak yardage in a run than have a longer pass blow up. I am not sure at all why he is in it at the goal line though.

[denverYooper]

I agree with Wists point for 2 reasons. It simply makes sense that on 2nd and 3, first and goal at the 1 you need 3 fatties up front. Second, early in the season we ran a lot more 3 man fronts and we were much better on D overall. We don't get to the QB with 4 LB's, so that can't be the good argument for pulling a fatty for a CB when you go nickel.

If we run 2-4 all day vs. SF, they will eat our lunch. We need the fatties up front, collapsing the pocket on kapernick, 1 spy at LB, and flood the secondary.

They used Jones a lot as a spy this year on QBs who could possibly run.

[woodbuck27]

I agree with Wists point for 2 reasons. It simply makes sense that on 2nd and 3, first and goal at the 1 you need 3 fatties up front. Second, early in the season we ran a lot more 3 man fronts and we were much better on D overall. We don't get to the QB with 4 LB's, so that can't be the good argument for pulling a fatty for a CB when you go nickel.

If we run 2-4 all day vs. SF, they will eat our lunch. We need the fatties up front, collapsing the pocket on kapernick, 1 spy at LB, and flood the secondary.

That 49ers OL:

Carry dy no mite !

Failing that stink bombs may be effective.

PACKERS !

[Smeefers]

I wouldn't know how many more records our defense would need to give up (Kaepernick, Warner, the 2011 defense, etc.) before it would be justified to let Capers go.

It's one thing to be average, or even below average. Quite another to give up *records* at the most inopportune times.

I'm a fence sitter with Dom Capers, and I think this is the best argument I've heard for getting rid of him. There's a lot of teams who have stinky defenses and they have players who get hurt - but how many of them give up records? Multiple times? Yikes.

[Smeefers]

And there are very few true bump and run corners left.

Seattle has a beautiful pair of them. I'm not saying that's what we need, but I don't think they've disappeared. Bump and run Corners tended to be stockier and slower and the giant receivers would have a field day with them. With refs calling pass interference so much more often now, the hands on approach of a bump and run corner has severely diminished in its returns. T Will used to play a pretty good bump and run - one of the reasons he got paid - but now the refs are all over him and his flags have gone way up. He's talented enough to make the adjustments, but he's not playing at the top of his game. Remember, he was trained by Harris and Woodson, both excellent bump and run corners. The reason seattle's duo is so dominant is because they're athletic enough and tall enough to seperate from the reciever after the initial 5 yards. Tramon simply doesn't have the catch up speed.

[Smeefers]

I wonder if they do tailor what they try and do based on the strength and availability of what they have on the roster, or does he try and do the same things no matter who he has available.

Where is Datone Jones? I didn't expect highlight reel stuff every week, but did expect him to show out a bit more than he did this year. Did Green Bay not know how to use him? Was he ineffective with the chances he had? He looked like a very sudden player at UCLA, and they talked about him play 5 tech (I had visions of Cullen Jenkins), but somehow he seemed invisible. Did he to you guys? Perhaps now that they are starving for creating pressure, they will turn him loose. I just expected some kind of visual proof of why he was drafted in the first round.

Datone Jones and Nick Perry are both outside 4-3 DL rushers. Just like Raji is a 4-3 interior guy. That may be the reason for they're lack of play making ability. It walks like a duck and talks like a duck, but they're trying to turn them into ... err... non ducks? I don't know. Lost it.

[denverYooper]

I think Seattle's CBs take "bump and run" to a whole new level, if you get my drift.

http://www.clutchmagonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/al-pacino-as-tony-montana.jpg

[pbmax]

Datone Jones and Nick Perry are both outside 4-3 DL rushers. Just like Raji is a 4-3 interior guy. That may be the reason for they're lack of play making ability. It walks like a duck and talks like a duck, but they're trying to turn them into ... err... non ducks? I don't know. Lost it.

Jones might fit in a 4-3 but its inside. He played in a 3-4 under Mora and played inside and out on the line.

[woodbuck27]

Datone Jones and Nick Perry are both outside 4-3 DL rushers. Just like Raji is a 4-3 interior guy. That may be the reason for they're lack of play making ability. It walks like a duck and talks like a duck, but they're trying to turn them into ... err... non ducks? I don't know. Lost it.

!!!!

Your right on there.

So something must give like ...... yesterday !

When will they clue in !??

[pbmax]

Seattle has a beautiful pair of them. I'm not saying that's what we need, but I don't think they've disappeared. Bump and run Corners tended to be stockier and slower and the giant receivers would have a field day with them. With refs calling pass interference so much more often now, the hands on approach of a bump and run corner has severely diminished in its returns. T Will used to play a pretty good bump and run - one of the reasons he got paid - but now the refs are all over him and his flags have gone way up. He's talented enough to make the adjustments, but he's not playing at the top of his game. Remember, he was trained by Harris and Woodson, both excellent bump and run corners. The reason seattle's duo is so dominant is because they're athletic enough and tall enough to seperate from the reciever after the initial 5 yards. Tramon simply doesn't have the catch up speed.

Pete's CBs are bigger, but historically, bump and run was a fast CBs game. Disrupt the takeoff and then shadow. Dixon and Minnifield, Lester Hayes and Mike Haynes were guys perhaps without the top gear of a wideout but they were quick and angle.

Bigger bump and run CBs are just trying to delay the route long enough for the pass rush to extinguish the throw.

[Fritz]

I think the Packers' defensive talent might be more suited to a 4-3. I would imagine Matthews would be able to become an OLB in a 4-3; you could still rush him a lot. You've got Datone Jones and Raji inside, Josh Boyd in there, too. Mike Neal could play end, as could Perry. Let Raji use his quickness to get up the field, turn this defense loose a little bit.

[gbgary]

Seattle has a beautiful pair of them.

that's what I was gonna say...those fuckers in sea play that way. our guys might be able to too but we'll never know. that initial jam gets the pass rush a tick closer to the qb too.

[pbmax]

Possible source of some of the problem on D; players to fit scheme. Its not a great explanation, because Thompson has played in a 3-4. But between this and injuries might be on target. Smart Football and Doug Farrar are discussing the comparisons of Pete Carroll's D plus John Schneider to Jimmy Johnson/Wannestadt in Dallas.

(discussing SeattleD)Smart Football ‏@smartfootball 55m
@SI_DougFarrar Great points. And they know what they want and what they want to do, so they pick guys that fit. Big rangy DBs, etc

SI_DougFarrar ‏@SI_DougFarrar 51m
@smartfootball Going back to Jimmy Johnson's tenures with Dallas and Miami -- I think his exp. in college was the difference in big D.

Smart Football ‏@smartfootball 49m
@SI_DougFarrar I agree, plus commitment to their system. Wanndstadt and others tell stories how there was pressure to scrap Miami 4-3 Over

Smart Football ‏@smartfootball 49m
@SI_DougFarrar which is what they had been drafting to also. Then suddenly was most popular defense in football

SI_DougFarrar ‏@SI_DougFarrar 48m
@smartfootball This all sounds so simple, right? But the straight line from front office to coaches to players ... boy, is it rare.

Smart Football ‏@smartfootball 47m
@SI_DougFarrar Right, plus having to relate to a totally different kind of player.

[Smeefers]

Pete's CBs are bigger, but historically, bump and run was a fast CBs game. Disrupt the takeoff and then shadow. Dixon and Minnifield, Lester Hayes and Mike Haynes were guys perhaps without the top gear of a wideout but they were quick and angle.

Bigger bump and run CBs are just trying to delay the route long enough for the pass rush to extinguish the throw.

Huh. I always thought that typical zone guys were smaller, faster backs who could cover a lot of ground in a blink like deangelo hall and that the bump and run guys were more physical. I shall bow to your superior name list and your wealth of knowledge.

[Cleft Crusty]

Jones might fit in a 4-3 but its inside. He played in a 3-4 under Mora and played inside and out on the line.

He has a Santana Dotson kind of build.

[Cleft Crusty]

There are corners who beat the hell out of receivers to knock the receiver off the route, disrupt timing, and hope for the pass rush (as Mr. Max indicated) and there are corners who run with receivers and defense the pass. Seattle and SF have mostly the former, and the Packers have the latter. Mike Holmgren probably would have shifted receivers all over the place to get away from the kind of beatdown Seattle likes to dish out, but the best solution is to have strong receivers who can push right back. Jones and Nelson can do that, but the play selection may not allow for that. Cobb can kill those techniques from the slot, if he's quick enough after the lay off.

[woodbuck27]

There are corners who beat the hell out of receivers to knock the receiver off the route, disrupt timing, and hope for the pass rush (as Mr. Max indicated) and there are corners who run with receivers and defense the pass. Seattle and SF have mostly the former, and the Packers have the latter. Mike Holmgren probably would have shifted receivers all over the place to get away from the kind of beatdown Seattle likes to dish out, but the best solution is to have strong receivers who can push right back. Jones and Nelson can do that, but the play selection may not allow for that. Cobb can kill those techniques from the slot, if he's quick enough after the lay off.

Yes.

[pbmax]

Huh. I always thought that typical zone guys were smaller, faster backs who could cover a lot of ground in a blink like deangelo hall and that the bump and run guys were more physical. I shall bow to your superior name list and your wealth of knowledge.

I think the trend is bigger, with the thought to mainly disrupt the route rather than cover like blanket all over the field. Mostly a response to Moss, Owens, Johnson, Marshall, Jeffrey types. Size to disrupt route and contest for the ball.

Zone guys have to have short area quickness to change direction to find the ball and recover to the receiver. They also need to be able to tackle. Tall here might be a detriment with change of direction.

[pbmax]

Best bet against bump and run (beside a deceptive first step and clean release which renders it ineffective) is the slot guy who is off the LOS and harder to bump and motion for the outside guys. Terry Bradshaw will also tell you crossing routes. But Terry won't remember telling you that from the concussions he has suffered waiting for those routes to uncover versus the Raiders and Cowboys.

[Smeefers]

!!!!

Your right on there.

So something must give like ...... yesterday !

When will they clue in !??

Well, I think that the pack us currently built to play a whole lot bigger than they're playing. As its been said here, they tend to go small even when I think a lot of their best players are big. I'm kind of surprised that they stick with the 34 nickel when they have fantastic personnel for a 43 nickel. Of course, when mathews is healthy, the whole dynamic changes. I don't see him putting a hand in the dirt. The mad scientist should be able to figure out a way to continue to use mathews while still keeping his best players on the field. I'd rather have just about any of our DL on the turf rather than mulumba for a majority of the game.

What I don't understand is that dc found great ways to utilize woodson and his talents. There are plenty of play makers on our D who don't seem to be put in a position to excel. Raji is a beast but they use him as a plug. Neal was born to play on the line but he's wandering around in coverage. Hawk has fantastic swarming ability, but on rush plays, he's always sent in first to absorb a block so someone else can get the pressure. Perry would benifit from a hand in the dirt as well.

Right now our D isn't doing well in any aspect of the game. They can't set the edge, their secondary can't communicate. No one is on the same page. Guys don't have opportunities - and that is what the 34 is all about. Opportunities. If it was just one thing, I would happily give capers a pass. Hell, I was happy with his D as long as they were causing turn overs. I don't mind a high risk/reward when you have Rogers there to bring you back if a mistake is made. Without anything though, its hard to point blame anywhere but at the DC. This year has been a total systemic failure.

[pbmax]

I think the 4-3 nickel is a great point. At one point, Jones was playing outside at essentially DE while Neal went inside to DT. Daniels or Raji at other DT and Matthews would be a nice front four.

You then have to keep Hawk and another LB on the field. Do you move Perry back there or keep BJones?

[Smeefers]

For nickel? Jones for coverage, perry for blitzing. Nothing has to be set in stone there. You could move guys all over. Switch perry in mathews place and then you have all your best guys on the field.

[pbmax]

For nickel? Jones for coverage, perry for blitzing. Nothing has to be set in stone there. You could move guys all over. Switch perry in mathews place and then you have all your best guys on the field.

I agree with Perry at DE and Matthews and Hawk back at LB, but the Packer seem very reluctant to move Matthews again.

[Cleft Crusty]

Well, I think that the pack us currently built to play a whole lot bigger than they're playing. As its been said here, they tend to go small even when I think a lot of their best players are big. I'm kind of surprised that they stick with the 34 nickel when they have fantastic personnel for a 43 nickel. Of course, when mathews is healthy, the whole dynamic changes. I don't see him putting a hand in the dirt. The mad scientist should be able to figure out a way to continue to use mathews while still keeping his best players on the field. I'd rather have just about any of our DL on the turf rather than mulumba for a majority of the game.

What I don't understand is that dc found great ways to utilize woodson and his talents. There are plenty of play makers on our D who don't seem to be put in a position to excel. Raji is a beast but they use him as a plug. Neal was born to play on the line but he's wandering around in coverage. Hawk has fantastic swarming ability, but on rush plays, he's always sent in first to absorb a block so someone else can get the pressure. Perry would benifit from a hand in the dirt as well.

Right now our D isn't doing well in any aspect of the game. They can't set the edge, their secondary can't communicate. No one is on the same page. Guys don't have opportunities - and that is what the 34 is all about. Opportunities. If it was just one thing, I would happily give capers a pass. Hell, I was happy with his D as long as they were causing turn overs. I don't mind a high risk/reward when you have Rogers there to bring you back if a mistake is made. Without anything though, its hard to point blame anywhere but at the DC. This year has been a total systemic failure.

This is a fantastic post. Clefty is still shocked that Capers would throw Matthews at the other teams' best O lineman play after play after play, when, with his quickness, he could be used all over the place, like Woodson. (that's not to say he wasn't sometimes, but there are games where it was rare to see this). The point about Raji is true. Plus, Raji is an emotional fellow. Force him to play two-gap dancing bear all game and he just gets plain bored and listless. You have to know your people.

That second LB next to Hawk, like the second Safety next to Burnett are two tire fires on the defense.

[Guiness]

Max, Capers had the 2-4 alignment on the field when Forte ran it in from 1st and goal at the 1!!!


I don't want to believe you but I'm afraid to look. Losing Boyd hurt, but he still could've trotted out Raji, Pickett and Daniels and had Neale put his hand in the dirt.

[Cleft Crusty]

I don't want to believe you but I'm afraid to look. Losing Boyd hurt, but he still could've trotted out Raji, Pickett and Daniels and had Neale put his hand in the dirt.

Then they would have thrown the ball, probably to M. Bennett.

[pbmax]

I agree with Perry at DE and Matthews and Hawk back at LB, but the Packer seem very reluctant to move Matthews again.

Actually, now that I think about it, when the OLBs were healthy, we say this alignment a few times. It was Neal and Perry at DE/OLB, but Matthews was in the middle threatening blitz.

[Cleft Crusty]

Actually, now that I think about it, when the OLBs were healthy, we say this alignment a few times. It was Neal and Perry at DE/OLB, but Matthews was in the middle threatening blitz.

But probably not enough. They didn't use it in the Dallas game until they were down three scores and desperate. Then they had Jones on the Right side of the line and got a sack on Romo. It will be interesting to see if they come beck next year with the same alignment or keep Perry at ROLB and move Matthews. Matthews is decent in coverage and is more disruptive from locations not across from the LT.

[pbmax]

Perry not being healthy is not helping at all. They could survive Matthews being out if Neal and Perry were at full speed.

[Guiness]

Then they would have thrown the ball, probably to M. Bennett.

Quite likely, and through your prescription med drug addled brain you might recall we saw that on the Bears 4th quarter TD, throwing the ball the Marshall after 5 consecutive Matt Forte touches. Still, with Forte at 100 yards for the day, I think the pessimistic rat is correct that a 2-4 alignment is not the way to roll on goal to go from the 1.

[Cleft Crusty]

Quite likely, and through your prescription med drug addled brain you might recall we saw that on the Bears 4th quarter TD, throwing the ball the Marshall after 5 consecutive Matt Forte touches. Still, with Forte at 100 yards for the day, I think the pessimistic rat is correct that a 2-4 alignment is not the way to roll on goal to go from the 1.

If the 4 are Perry, Hawk, Lattimore and Mulumba, you are going to get run over. I see your point, even through my cataracts.

[pbmax]

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/paisans_2006/ScreenShot2013-12-30at123034PM.png (http://s85.photobucket.com/user/paisans_2006/media/ScreenShot2013-12-30at123034PM.png.html)

[Rutnstrut]

Everyone is making great points, but they all say the same thing essentially. Which is, fire Capers, he obviously can't change or won't.

[pbmax]

Hard to argue that one. Personnel be damned, there isn't enough space to be worried about LB coverage versus an extra DB.

However, it would help if the line and OLBs would play it straight and no all immediately head for the ball. That is why he had a cutback lane.

[pbmax]

Mulumba has allowed Bennet to dive at his feet but instead of redirecting him or shedding him, he retreats into Burnett's gap. Burnett jumps up into his gap. Everyone else is headed into the backfield.

Its not a failure of 2-4 versus 3-3, its a failure to understand your assignment. You play this way in 3-3 the result is the same.

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/paisans_2006/ScreenShot2013-12-30at123647PM.png (http://s85.photobucket.com/user/paisans_2006/media/ScreenShot2013-12-30at123647PM.png.html)


That same scenario has repeated itself endlessly, especially against Adrian Peterson. The problem here is not stoutness in the interior (which has been problematic). Its that the run defenders don't understand the importance of their gap responsibilities.

[Cleft Crusty]

Hard to argue that one. Personnel be damned, there isn't enough space to be worried about LB coverage versus an extra DB.

However, it would help if the line and OLBs would play it straight and no all immediately head for the ball. That is why he had a cutback lane.

Sort of reminds you of the Lacy TD, doesn't it?

[Cleft Crusty]

Its not a failure of 2-4 versus 3-3, its a failure to understand your assignment. You play this way in 3-3 the result is the same. That same scenario has repeated itself endlessly, especially against Adrian Peterson. The problem here is not stoutness in the interior (which has been problematic). Its that the run defenders don't understand the importance of their gap responsibilities.

Block and Tackle, Block and Tackle. Gentlemen, most games are won or lost on the proper/improper application of these two basic principles.

http://motivationgrid.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/1_Vince_Lombardi.jpg

[Cleft Crusty]

Clefty watched the NFL Network "life of Lombardi" program (part1). John Madden described going to an all-day conference where Lombardi was to teach offense. Madden thought he knew it all, but Lombardi spent an entire 8 hours just on the sweep. Madden afterwards: "I realized I knew nothing about football." Lombardi taught that play and his players practiced it until they couldn't stand it anymore.

Football, like all disciplines depends on the effective conveyance of knowledge, through that most ancient of professions, teaching. Packers need to teach gap assignment like Lombardi.

[Guiness]

If the 4 are Perry, Hawk, Lattimore and Mulumba, you are going to get run over. I see your point, even through my cataracts.

I'd recommend laser surgery but I suspect the fear is that the proximity to the power source may cause other non-original body parts to malfunction.

[Cleft Crusty]

I'd recommend laser surgery but I suspect the fear is that the proximity to the power source may cause other non-original body parts to malfunction.

More likely, it will re-vitalize them. Clefty's body is like the Packer roster - much of it is on IR.

[pbmax]

Sort of reminds you of the Lacy TD, doesn't it?

Absolutely. Its an art form to know when to abandon your primary responsibility, but that is why you study tape. Mulumba is too young perhaps to know this. But the rest of the D does it too. That's the part that worries me about coaching.

[pbmax]

Capers is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Here is the 3-4 base giving up Forte's long reception because of a breakdown in coverage. Hawk and Lattimore retreat deep into middle and Perry follows the TE. My guess is that Perry has played it wrong or missed an adjustment. There is no one else anywhere near the flat on a 1st and 10 play.

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/paisans_2006/ScreenShot2013-12-30at10749PM.png (http://s85.photobucket.com/user/paisans_2006/media/ScreenShot2013-12-30at10749PM.png.html)

[Cleft Crusty]

Absolutely. Its an art form to know when to abandon your primary responsibility, but that is why you study tape. Mulumba is too young perhaps to know this. But the rest of the D does it too. That's the part that worries me about coaching.

In part it could be the inevitable consequence of a youthful roster.

[Cleft Crusty]

Capers is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Here is the 3-4 base giving up Forte's long reception because of a breakdown in coverage. Hawk and Lattimore retreat deep into middle and Perry follows the TE. My guess is that Perry has played it wrong or missed an adjustment. There is no one else anywhere near the flat on a 1st and 10 play.

I recall that play, and thinking that the 2010 version would have defended it better 1) because they were more veteran with Woodson and Collins and 2) This Bears team has four legitimate offensive weapons and it's hard to account for them on every play.

[pbmax]

Its also possible Hawk blows this. Perry is manned up on the TE, Shields is off and Burnett I think has come up from 2 deep to cover the third receiver to this side. Hawk might have to adjust the call in this formation 3x1 to take the flat himself. Forte will cross in front of both ILBs position near the LOS. Hawk is clearly expecting a receiver coming into his area. I probably side on Hawk knowing the call both as a vet, the signal caller and the fact that Perry is the first to peel off and head toward Forte.

Its also possible Lattimore has some responsibility as no receiver is in his area.

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/paisans_2006/ScreenShot2013-12-30at11532PM.png (http://s85.photobucket.com/user/paisans_2006/media/ScreenShot2013-12-30at11532PM.png.html)

[pbmax]

Here is the other Forte TD, perhaps the one wist was referring to as the ball is on the 1. Bear are 3 WR-1 TE- 1 RB, but this close to the end zone seems an odd place to worry about LB coverage or being beaten deep. Raji penetrates and takes himself out of the play, easily blocked, Pickett beats the first block and falls down. Perry almost gets there in time from the left.

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/paisans_2006/ScreenShot2013-12-30at12050PM.png (http://s85.photobucket.com/user/paisans_2006/media/ScreenShot2013-12-30at12050PM.png.html)

[Smeefers]

Clefty watched the NFL Network "life of Lombardi" program (part1). John Madden described going to an all-day conference where Lombardi was to teach offense. Madden thought he knew it all, but Lombardi spent an entire 8 hours just on the sweep. Madden afterwards: "I realized I knew nothing about football." Lombardi taught that play and his players practiced it until they couldn't stand it anymore.

Football, like all disciplines depends on the effective conveyance of knowledge, through that most ancient of professions, teaching. Packers need to teach gap assignment like Lombardi.


Well, if you have a couple of coaches like lombardi laying around, I'm sure MM could find a place for them somewhere on the team. Maybe assistant offensive line coach or something.... :)

[Smeefers]

In part it could be the inevitable consequence of a youthful roster.

3 years in, you're a vet. You've been there and done that and there shouldn't be any real surprises. I'm not saying guys are perfect, but you should be putting yourself in positions to make plays on a more consistent basis. We have a whole lot of 3+ year guys who just look lost. They should be the ones covering for the rooks who stumble around out there like they've never played a down before. Some of these guys are looking wide eyed stupid way more often than they should be.

[pbmax]

The other thing we are forgetting is tendency. How much do the Bears run out of 1 TE, 1 RB near the goal line?

[KYPack]

Well, if you have a couple of coaches like lombardi laying around, I'm sure MM could find a place for them somewhere on the team. Maybe assistant offensive line coach or something.... :)

Part 2 is on NFL channel tonite.

The 50's Giants had Lombardi coaching the offense and Tom Landry coaching the defense. Somebody asked the HC (Jim Lee Howell) what he did. Howell said he just kept the balls inflated and took attendance. Old Giants will tell you, he wasn't joking.

[woodbuck27]

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQz1neR5MJFZyQQkxoaIz_upY0Jkj9vy jIMPlpRFH26EPUuS_kb

I'll be...back !

[Rutnstrut]

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQz1neR5MJFZyQQkxoaIz_upY0Jkj9vy jIMPlpRFH26EPUuS_kb

I'll be...back !

He better not be, mark my words. A pathetic defensive showing, will kill us in the play offs.

[wist43]

Not a big La Canfora fan, but he's got Capers as being on the "hot seat".

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jason-la-canfora/24391752/monday-observations-stagnant-offenses-could-use-coordinator-changes

"Packers defensive coordinator: Yes they made the playoffs and yes they have some injuries and yes they have had some top players not performing at a top level. But for a team with annual Super Bowl hopes, Green Bay has allowed a ton of yards and points and Dom Capers has been under fire for a few years now.

"Do they turn it over to someone on staff? Find a young coordinator elsewhere? It would not be a surprise if they do, especially if the 49ers find a way to tear through that Packers defense as they did a year ago."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Personally I don't think they will dump Capers - it's mind numbing, but they seem to be content with the result they're getting.

To me, the 2-4 is such an obvious disaster, and the misuse of players relative to their strengths and weaknesses is just as obvious - yet MM doesn't step in and force changes. If MM isn't concerned enough to get involved with the defense, then he must be content to simply let Dom keep on keepin' on.

[woodbuck27]

Not a big La Canfora fan, but he's got Capers as being on the "hot seat".

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jason-la-canfora/24391752/monday-observations-stagnant-offenses-could-use-coordinator-changes

"Packers defensive coordinator: Yes they made the playoffs and yes they have some injuries and yes they have had some top players not performing at a top level. But for a team with annual Super Bowl hopes, Green Bay has allowed a ton of yards and points and Dom Capers has been under fire for a few years now.

"Do they turn it over to someone on staff? Find a young coordinator elsewhere? It would not be a surprise if they do, especially if the 49ers find a way to tear through that Packers defense as they did a year ago."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Personally I don't think they will dump Capers - it's mind numbing, but they seem to be content with the result they're getting.

To me, the 2-4 is such an obvious disaster, and the misuse of players relative to their strengths and weaknesses is just as obvious - yet MM doesn't step in and force changes. If MM isn't concerned enough to get involved with the defense, then he must be content to simply let Dom keep on keepin' on.

Then MM is the one indeed ultimately responsible if the Packer defense fails again next season and should be FIRED before the 2015 season!

If that's not done and the defensive failure continues into next season (2014). How long does any die hard TT/MM fan believe it will be before Packer Nation is screaming for a change at the top? Green Bay Packer fans must demand clear success in the form of Super Bowls not simply NFCN championships and 'zippo nothing in the playoffs'.

TT and MM have to act right after this season to improve the team overall and should certainly know if the defective defense is on the coach's scheme (Dom Capers) and the defensive coaching staff or players and talent (Ted Thompson). We're now very aware from recent Mike McCarthy reactions to what Dom Capers does in terms of preparation and the 'D'. To clearly realize that Mike McCarthy loves Dom Capers. You can't critique DC Dom Capers harshly; nor do the same in regards to ST Coach Shawn Slocum. See them returned and continued failure and not justifiably demand the axe fal lon Mike McCarthy's head.

If the team continues to fail in these playoffs do we simply pass it off with a shrug? I expect nothing less that a win Sunday and we will get that. Anything less than that is utter bullshit.

This isn't Rocket Science Packerrats.

Something must give sooner than later or pack the bunch of them out of Green Bay. Yes isn't that shocking. How could I possibly write such heresy? Why? because I'm 'a Green Bay Packer to win fan' and nothing less than that with Aaron Rodgers is acceptable to me. If the Packers lose Sunday something must be done in this off season.

Ted Thompson and Mike McCarthy have to act in full accordance with need for the team. The status quo isn't at all the order of the day. I'm centering this criticism on the Packer defense and that defense is clearly sick.

I so very much want the Green Bay Packer to succeed against the San Fran 49ers this Sunday. I expect not hope for a win over that team this time around. If that fails to happen!? I want mike McCarthy and Ted Thompson to show me some balls. Show me that they are competent enough to demonstrate a clear need for change. Stay on point for another Super Bowl in the Aaron Rodgers era.

I do not expect, nor will I excuse any Packer loss to the San Fran 49ers; based in any lame excuse of injuries or too much adversity. All that comes with the game and clearly now we're all aware of just how much Aaron Rodgers pulls a sheet over an incompetent Packer NO DEFENSE. A defense that is at the top of the bottom one third of the NFL, isn't helping the Green Bay Packers high powered Aaron Rodgers led offense to a deep run in the playoffs. An NFC Championship and a Super Bowl victory.

Y'all joke about the rag tag teams we have to defeat to win the NFCN. If Y'all are correct then what has an NFCN win over these easy to defeat teams in the NFCN stood for in terms of playoff victories? How well are we doing Packerrats and we have arguably the very best NFL player today as our QB (Aaron Rodgers) in a QB driven league.

NFCN Championships (3 straight now) don't men diddly squat, if the Green Bay Packers continue to face the very best of NFL teams and fail to compete in the playoffs. As that may continue. Who's to blame for that continued failure?

Ted Thompson and Mike McCarthy. Any such failure is straight in their faces.

A failure this time around and it's too clear what we all must demand as Packer fans.

It's all on MM and his coaching staff right now to prepare what Packer GM Ted Thompson has managed to supply them. Any failure after that and we need a lot more. We need a definite change or face the consequences. The free ride is over.

What we have today as a team. That has to be enough. I expect that it will be enough or there must bloody well be changes. This friendly little back slapping act in Green Bay is getting old. I want more.


GO PACKERS...GO PACK GO !

[wist43]

Here is the other Forte TD, perhaps the one wist was referring to as the ball is on the 1. Bear are 3 WR-1 TE- 1 RB, but this close to the end zone seems an odd place to worry about LB coverage or being beaten deep. Raji penetrates and takes himself out of the play, easily blocked, Pickett beats the first block and falls down. Perry almost gets there in time from the left.

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/paisans_2006/ScreenShot2013-12-30at12050PM.png (http://s85.photobucket.com/user/paisans_2006/media/ScreenShot2013-12-30at12050PM.png.html)

I think maybe I was conflating this play with Forte's 5 yd TD run?? Because Bennett is in-line as a blocker on this play. I'll have to go back and look and see if they were in an I on Forte's 5 yd run.

If you follow this play thru though, look at the RT. He fires off the line and has absolutely no one to hit!! First and goal from the 1, and Capers only has 2 DL on the field?? What's wrong with that picture??

I did go back and look at Forte's 5 yd TD run... same thing. Lined up in the 2-4, and Forte bouces off LT untouched.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With most of our talent in the front seven stockpiled on the DL, Capers should be using more 3 and 4 man lines; but he hasn't, and he won't. He misuses everyone in that front seven, and negates their strengths as a result.

McGinn wrote that Capers used 3 DL on only 4 of 50 snaps.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/rating-the-packers-vs-bears-b99174226z1-238200141.html

B.J. Raji (32) was more active. He was getting off the ball, attacking blocks better and hustling in pursuit. He was moved out too easily by LT Jermon Bushrod on Matt Forte's 5-yard TD. This didn't qualify as one of the many superb performances Raji has had against Chicago, but it was a step in the right direction. Ryan Pickett (25) gave as good as he got against RG Kyle Long, the strapping rookie. It was another sub game against the Bears; just four of the 50 snaps came in the 3-4 base front. Thus, Josh Boyd (nine) didn't play much and C.J. Wilson was inactive in favor of Jerel Worthy, whose two snaps came on third-and-double digits. Boyd blew up a trap with penetration, leading to a 5-yard loss for Forte at the Green Bay 40 and a punt. Energetic Mike Daniels (26) could muster just one pressure. Datone Jones had five snaps.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

With our LB's being both pedestrian and inexperienced, it only makes sense to play to your stronger position. CJ Wilson was inactive, Pickett and Daniels played half the snaps, Jones only played 5 snaps (is he still injured??).

Bottom line is, I hate this style of small ball. It is a misuse of talent, and the results have been dismal more often than not for 3 years now. I would hope TT has seen enough, but I doubt it. I think we're stuck with Capers forever :(

[woodbuck27]

I think maybe I was conflating this play with Forte's 5 yd TD run?? Because Bennett is in-line as a blocker on this play. I'll have to go back and look and see if they were in an I on Forte's 5 yd run.

If you follow this play thru though, look at the RT. He fires off the line and has absolutely no one to hit!! First and goal from the 1, and Capers only has 2 DL on the field?? What's wrong with that picture??

I did go back and look at Forte's 5 yd TD run... same thing. Lined up in the 2-4, and Forte bouces off LT untouched.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With most of our talent in the front seven stockpiled on the DL, Capers should be using more 3 and 4 man lines; but he hasn't, and he won't. He misuses everyone in that front seven, and negates their strengths as a result.

McGinn wrote that Capers used 3 DL on only 4 of 50 snaps.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/rating-the-packers-vs-bears-b99174226z1-238200141.html

B.J. Raji (32) was more active. He was getting off the ball, attacking blocks better and hustling in pursuit. He was moved out too easily by LT Jermon Bushrod on Matt Forte's 5-yard TD. This didn't qualify as one of the many superb performances Raji has had against Chicago, but it was a step in the right direction. Ryan Pickett (25) gave as good as he got against RG Kyle Long, the strapping rookie. It was another sub game against the Bears; just four of the 50 snaps came in the 3-4 base front. Thus, Josh Boyd (nine) didn't play much and C.J. Wilson was inactive in favor of Jerel Worthy, whose two snaps came on third-and-double digits. Boyd blew up a trap with penetration, leading to a 5-yard loss for Forte at the Green Bay 40 and a punt. Energetic Mike Daniels (26) could muster just one pressure. Datone Jones had five snaps.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

With our LB's being both pedestrian and inexperienced, it only makes sense to play to your stronger position. CJ Wilson was inactive, Pickett and Daniels played half the snaps, Jones only played 5 snaps (is he still injured??).

Bottom line is, I hate this style of small ball. It is a misuse of talent, and the results have been dismal more often than not for 3 years now. I would hope TT has seen enough, but I doubt it. I think we're stuck with Capers forever :(

I believe again that your right.

DOM CAPERS Is like the Queen.

She isn't going anywhere. She will remain...'the Queen'.

Dom CAPERS will remain " 'the QUEEN' Of THE GREEN BAY PACKERS ... NONDEFENSE ".

LONG LIVE QUEENS !!

[Fritz]

Not a big La Canfora fan, but he's got Capers as being on the "hot seat".

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jason-la-canfora/24391752/monday-observations-stagnant-offenses-could-use-coordinator-changes

"Packers defensive coordinator: Yes they made the playoffs and yes they have some injuries and yes they have had some top players not performing at a top level. But for a team with annual Super Bowl hopes, Green Bay has allowed a ton of yards and points and Dom Capers has been under fire for a few years now.

"Do they turn it over to someone on staff? Find a young coordinator elsewhere? It would not be a surprise if they do, especially if the 49ers find a way to tear through that Packers defense as they did a year ago."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Personally I don't think they will dump Capers - it's mind numbing, but they seem to be content with the result they're getting.

To me, the 2-4 is such an obvious disaster, and the misuse of players relative to their strengths and weaknesses is just as obvious - yet MM doesn't step in and force changes. If MM isn't concerned enough to get involved with the defense, then he must be content to simply let Dom keep on keepin' on.

Sadly, the stuff from La Canfora is what passes for reporting these days. Look at it - 'Dom Capers has been under fire" and "it would not be a surprise if..." ? That's just speculation. I could write that here in Packerrats. That's just words. Because the guy gets interviewed he's to be believed?

As for the possibility, I've made it clear I'm just not a big 3-4, two gap person. I think it handcuffs your best talent (Raji, most especially, and Daniels to some extent, and Worthy, too, if he's any good).

But Woody, when you wrote this..."If the team continues to fail in these playoffs do we simply pass it off with a shrug? I expect nothing less that a win Sunday and we will get that. Anything less than that is utter bullshit." Well, that's just crazy. I thought we were all basking in the glow of this unexpected NFC North title, and now you've moved on to "if we don't win I'm going to take my ball and go home"? What happened, Woodrow? Did the meds wear off, or kick in?

[mraynrand]

I think maybe I was conflating this play with Forte's 5 yd TD run?? Because Bennett is in-line as a blocker on this play. I'll have to go back and look and see if they were in an I on Forte's 5 yd run.

If you follow this play thru though, look at the RT. He fires off the line and has absolutely no one to hit!! First and goal from the 1, and Capers only has 2 DL on the field?? What's wrong with that picture??

I did go back and look at Forte's 5 yd TD run... same thing. Lined up in the 2-4, and Forte bouces off LT untouched.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With most of our talent in the front seven stockpiled on the DL, Capers should be using more 3 and 4 man lines; but he hasn't, and he won't. He misuses everyone in that front seven, and negates their strengths as a result.

McGinn wrote that Capers used 3 DL on only 4 of 50 snaps.

B.J. Raji (32) was more active. He was getting off the ball, attacking blocks better and hustling in pursuit. He was moved out too easily by LT Jermon Bushrod on Matt Forte's 5-yard TD. This didn't qualify as one of the many superb performances Raji has had against Chicago, but it was a step in the right direction. Ryan Pickett (25) gave as good as he got against RG Kyle Long, the strapping rookie. It was another sub game against the Bears; just four of the 50 snaps came in the 3-4 base front. Thus, Josh Boyd (nine) didn't play much and C.J. Wilson was inactive in favor of Jerel Worthy, whose two snaps came on third-and-double digits. Boyd blew up a trap with penetration, leading to a 5-yard loss for Forte at the Green Bay 40 and a punt. Energetic Mike Daniels (26) could muster just one pressure. Datone Jones had five snaps.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

With our LB's being both pedestrian and inexperienced, it only makes sense to play to your stronger position. CJ Wilson was inactive, Pickett and Daniels played half the snaps, Jones only played 5 snaps (is he still injured??).

Bottom line is, I hate this style of small ball. It is a misuse of talent, and the results have been dismal more often than not for 3 years now. I would hope TT has seen enough, but I doubt it. I think we're stuck with Capers forever :(

Packers D is lined up against an offense with four receivers over 6'4" and a running back who can catch as well as any WR. You want them to defend the Bears as though they are a run first team, when they have to defense 5 pretty talented receivers. Packer need pass rushers who can disrupt plays, get penetration, get hands up, etc., not pretend it's the 70s with Walter Payton on the other side of the LOS.

[woodbuck27]

Packers D is lined up against an offense with four receivers over 6'4" and a running back who can catch as well as any WR. You want them to defend the Bears as though they are a run first team, when they have to defense 5 pretty talented receivers. Packer need pass rushers who can disrupt plays, get penetration, get hands up, etc., not pretend it's the 70s with Walter Payton on the other side of the LOS.

mmmm.... Good point ... mmmm.

Packers and penetration, disruption, hurries and SACKS of the opposition QB is invalid in any conversation and our lousy overall defense.

Just let them score and get on with the game.

[mraynrand]

Bears were 13 points away from setting a franchise record for points scored - would have surpassed '85 Bears. They have some serious talent, and the Packers are defending it with.... Mulumba, Lattimore, Richardson, Boyd, etc. 4-3, 3-4 - the debate is how guys are used or misused. There's some logic in these debates, but when you're dealing with guys that screw up gap assignment, you can play box-and-one and it doesn't make any difference. Is that a coaching problem? Sure, but it's also an experience problem. Packers are flooded with young guys, even some guys playing their third year have barely played a years' worth due to injury. That's just reality. The other extreme is to pull a George Allen and collect veterans who are trustworthy, but then you get the problems at that end of tired bodies just when you need vigor most, in the playoffs. It would be nice to add some veteran experience, but that might require two words that begin with F and A, with all it's potential pitfalls.

My bottom line is that I think even a reasonably healthy Packer defense isn't good enough, but the problem is more than scheme, it's personnel too, and I don't think draft only is going to be enough to improve it.

[woodbuck27]

Bears were 13 points away from setting a franchise record for points scored - would have surpassed '85 Bears. They have some serious talent, and the Packers are defending it with.... Mulumba, Lattimore, Richardson, Boyd, etc. 4-3, 3-4 - the debate is how guys are used or misused. There's some logic in these debates, but when you're dealing with guys that screw up gap assignment, you can play box-and-one and it doesn't make any difference. Is that a coaching problem? Sure, but it's also an experience problem. Packers are flooded with young guys, even some guys playing their third year have barely played a years' worth due to injury. That's just reality. The other extreme is to pull a George Allen and collect veterans who are trustworthy, but then you get the problems at that end of tired bodies just when you need vigor most, in the playoffs. It would be nice to add some veteran experience, but that might require two words that begin with F and A, with all it's potential pitfalls.

My bottom line is that I think even a reasonably healthy Packer defense isn't good enough, but the problem is more than scheme, it's personnel too, and I don't think draft only is going to be enough to improve it.

In two words:

Nailed it.

More:

That's a problem for Mike McCarthy and Ted Thompson to correct in this Off Season. That must be ... corrected.

[ThunderDan]

In two words:

Nailed it.

More:

That's a problem for Mike McCarthy and Ted Thompson to correct in this Off Season. That must be ... corrected.

Woody, what do you think MM and TT do?

They are in the building 110+ hours a week during the season and 80+ hours per week during the offseason.

Do you actually think that TT and MM don't see that the ST and D has been poor this year? Are they really that dumb that the Packers pay both of them millions of dollars a year but they can't see what is actually happening on the field?

If it was that easy to correct the problem wouldn't every other team in the NFL correct their problems too every year?

I would guess that TT and MM have forgotten more about football than anyone on this site has ever known! (Complete over the top exaggeration to make a point!)

[woodbuck27]

Woody, what do you think MM and TT do?

They are in the building 110+ hours a week during the season and 80+ hours per week during the offseason.

Do you actually think that TT and MM don't see that the ST and D has been poor this year? Are they really that dumb that the Packers pay both of them millions of dollars a year but they can't see what is actually happening on the field?

If it was that easy to correct the problem wouldn't every other team in the NFL correct their problems too every year?

I would guess that TT and MM have forgotten more about football than anyone on this site has ever known! (Complete over the top exaggeration to make a point!)

Sorry sonny but you idealize Ted Thompson and Mike McCarthy.

There are certainly smarter Packer fans than those two. That's the bona fide TRUTH.

[pbmax]

I think the Forte catch and run demonstrates why he prefers the 2-4 to be the nickel. That doesn't explain the goal line formation, however.

But the Bears had 12 TDs rushing (did not count QB) and 32 receiving TDs. No idea how many came from goal line.

In the play from the 1, they have double Marshall, do you want to double Marshall with Perry or Hawk?

The one thing the Bears tend to do is forget about Forte. I think Capers is playing tendency here.

I do completely agree that being undermanned at OLB contributes to the problem. However, with Jolly out the next two lineman for run D are Boyd and Worthy (Wilson was inactive). That doesn't inspire much more confidence than Mulumba.

[Pugger]

I think ST play is hurting this year because of injuries to starters. The best thing about ST this year is the resurgence of Crosby.

Our D has had issues keeping contain and tackling for a while. I'm sure the coaches harp on it every day but it isn't sinking in. Will a new voice (DC) make a difference or do we need players who are more disciplined?

[Pugger]

Sorry sonny but you idealize Ted Thompson and Mike McCarthy.

There are certainly smarter Packer fans than those two. That's the bona fide TRUTH.

Are you calling MM and TT fans? ;-)

Our HC and GM aren't perfect but I think you are more severe in your criticism than most. There are only a handful of other guys I'd rather have running this ball club. I can't think of many other coaching staffs that could overcome the adversity we endured this year - especially losing their MVP QB - and still get this team into the post season. If we never lost Rodgers for 2 months I submit we would have been the #2 seed instead of the #4.

[ThunderDan]

Sorry sonny but you idealize Ted Thompson and Mike McCarthy.

There are certainly smarter Packer fans than those two. That's the bona fide TRUTH.

Woody, you are funny!

[woodbuck27]

Are you calling MM and TT fans? ;-)

Our HC and GM aren't perfect but I think you are more severe in your criticism than most. There are only a handful of other guys I'd rather have running this ball club. I can't think of many other coaching staffs that could overcome the adversity we endured this year - especially losing their MVP QB - and still get this team into the post season. If we never lost Rodgers for 2 months I submit we would have been the #2 seed instead of the #4.

With me it's always about what have you done for me today to win tomorrow Pugger.

Anything less than what I admire in Bill Belichick isn't enough.

That man is clearly the ultimate in managing and coaching his team.

He'll not ever write a book on 'The Belichick Way' until maybe? ..... after he retires. That man lives Pat's every minute he breaths.

I like Bill Belichick's in your face visability and focus on always maximizing the best chance for the Pat's to win.

I simply wish for more of Belichick in Ted Thompson and Mike McCarthy and all they have that's better ....maintained.

[ThunderDan]

With me it's always about what have you done for me today to win tomorrow Pugger.

Anything less than what I admire in Bill Belichick isn't enough.

That man is clearly the ultimate in managing and coaching his team.

He'll not ever write a book on 'The Belichick Way' until maybe? ..... after he retires. That man lives Pat's every minute he breaths.

I like Bill Belichick's in your face visability and focus on always maximizing the best chance for the Pat's to win.

I simply wish for more of Belichick in Ted Thompson and Mike McCarthy and all they have that's better ....maintained.

Are you complaining about Belichick this year? Their D has given up more yards per game than ours! By a yard per game.

Funny how perception blinds the results.

[bobblehead]

I think maybe I was conflating this play with Forte's 5 yd TD run?? Because Bennett is in-line as a blocker on this play. I'll have to go back and look and see if they were in an I on Forte's 5 yd run.

If you follow this play thru though, look at the RT. He fires off the line and has absolutely no one to hit!! First and goal from the 1, and Capers only has 2 DL on the field?? What's wrong with that picture??

I did go back and look at Forte's 5 yd TD run... same thing. Lined up in the 2-4, and Forte bouces off LT untouched.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With most of our talent in the front seven stockpiled on the DL, Capers should be using more 3 and 4 man lines; but he hasn't, and he won't. He misuses everyone in that front seven, and negates their strengths as a result.

McGinn wrote that Capers used 3 DL on only 4 of 50 snaps.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/rating-the-packers-vs-bears-b99174226z1-238200141.html

B.J. Raji (32) was more active. He was getting off the ball, attacking blocks better and hustling in pursuit. He was moved out too easily by LT Jermon Bushrod on Matt Forte's 5-yard TD. This didn't qualify as one of the many superb performances Raji has had against Chicago, but it was a step in the right direction. Ryan Pickett (25) gave as good as he got against RG Kyle Long, the strapping rookie. It was another sub game against the Bears; just four of the 50 snaps came in the 3-4 base front. Thus, Josh Boyd (nine) didn't play much and C.J. Wilson was inactive in favor of Jerel Worthy, whose two snaps came on third-and-double digits. Boyd blew up a trap with penetration, leading to a 5-yard loss for Forte at the Green Bay 40 and a punt. Energetic Mike Daniels (26) could muster just one pressure. Datone Jones had five snaps.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

With our LB's being both pedestrian and inexperienced, it only makes sense to play to your stronger position. CJ Wilson was inactive, Pickett and Daniels played half the snaps, Jones only played 5 snaps (is he still injured??).

Bottom line is, I hate this style of small ball. It is a misuse of talent, and the results have been dismal more often than not for 3 years now. I would hope TT has seen enough, but I doubt it. I think we're stuck with Capers forever :(

One thing I often say is that you have to attack what the D gives you. We give up rushing yards. So extensively that 2nd and 8 is becoming a running down against us. Its also why I say a TE who can't block is a slow receiver. I would love to see them lineup next year (or next week) with 4WR and Quarless. When the D goes into the dime, shift Quarless tight, Cobb into the backfield and run all day. Sign Danny Woodhead or Reggie Bush types and exemplify the problem for defenses. In todays specialized age, we will see this happen more. NFL adjusts often. 3 years ago I predicted that teams would start running more against the constant nickel defenses, and D's that put pass rushers across the front who can't play the run (see eagles dream team). Next up is teams that have offenses that are designed to attack whichever specialized D you put in front of them.

[pbmax]

One thing I often say is that you have to attack what the D gives you. We give up rushing yards. So extensively that 2nd and 8 is becoming a running down against us. Its also why I say a TE who can't block is a slow receiver. I would love to see them lineup next year (or next week) with 4WR and Quarless. When the D goes into the dime, shift Quarless tight, Cobb into the backfield and run all day. Sign Danny Woodhead or Reggie Bush types and exemplify the problem for defenses. In todays specialized age, we will see this happen more. NFL adjusts often. 3 years ago I predicted that teams would start running more against the constant nickel defenses, and D's that put pass rushers across the front who can't play the run (see eagles dream team). Next up is teams that have offenses that are designed to attack whichever specialized D you put in front of them.

That is the essence of the problem with the Packers D now. They aren't stopping either run or pass. Short yardage and turnovers suddenly, seem to the be bright spots.

[bobblehead]

Sorry sonny but you idealize Ted Thompson and Mike McCarthy.

There are certainly smarter Packer fans than those two. That's the bona fide TRUTH.

Woody, I will put my IQ up against MM and/or TT and most of the population, but in terms of football IQ...Sorry, they have more collective knowledge than this entire board put together.

[bobblehead]

I think the Forte catch and run demonstrates why he prefers the 2-4 to be the nickel. That doesn't explain the goal line formation, however.

But the Bears had 12 TDs rushing (did not count QB) and 32 receiving TDs. No idea how many came from goal line.

In the play from the 1, they have double Marshall, do you want to double Marshall with Perry or Hawk?

The one thing the Bears tend to do is forget about Forte. I think Capers is playing tendency here.

I do completely agree that being undermanned at OLB contributes to the problem. However, with Jolly out the next two lineman for run D are Boyd and Worthy (Wilson was inactive). That doesn't inspire much more confidence than Mulumba.

Which begs the question, why was tolzien active, and Wilson inactive. Must be hurt still?

[woodbuck27]

Woody, I will put my IQ up against MM and/or TT and most of the population, but in terms of football IQ...Sorry, they have more collective knowledge than this entire board put together.

I would do the same. I'm positive that if I had to bet on it I'd back myself. I'd bet that neither of them has an IQ as high as mine is. Their IQ is inferior to mine. Their emotional IQ is most clearly lower than mine. I've dealt with difficult situations in my life and came through over the top more than I've failed.

Football IQ. mmmm

I've seen plenty of evidence that your mistaken. WE DO... have members on this board that have considerable ability to do as good or a better job that those two men. I'm positive if we had their resources we'd trump both of them.

I'm totally sincere in my position and this. We have some very bright minds on this board.

TT and MM make some real bonehead moves; worse, and too often their paralyzed to do anything.

The paint on TT's wall... too often never dries. ;-)

[bobblehead]

I would do the same. I'm positive that id I had to bet on it. Their IQ is inferior to mine.

Football IQ. mmmm

I've seen plenty of evidence that your mistaken. WE DO have members on this board that have considerable ability to do as good or a better job that those two men. I'm positive if we had their resources we'd trump both of them.

I'm totally sincere in my position and this. We have some very bright minds on this board.

Then you are intelligent, but naive.

[woodbuck27]

Woody, you are funny!

Humor comes naturally with my Parents and siblings. We were taught to treat a lot of things with some humor. It sure beats frustration driven anger. It's a giant step away from disillusion.

Ted Thompson and Mike McCarthy are a hoot. I observe them and sometimes scream with laughter. I have to go there or blow sky high.

They represent everything I resent in what should describe manhood.

[woodbuck27]

Then you are intelligent, but naive.

No...I'm convinced I'm correct based in too much evidence.

Hang on to all that convidence in them and watch them lose their jobs.

It's coming 'only' because of what they should be; what they aren't.

I'm certain of this. Convinced of my rightness. :smile:

[mraynrand]

The one thing the Bears tend to do is forget about Forte. I think Capers is playing tendency here.

You are right on the money and wrong too. Bobble would like a word with you about your continued posting. Nevertheless, I agree with you about forgetting Forte - but that was mostly McCown. Cutler loves him and uses him more. Same with Marshall - thus, your tendency argument is totally valid, and why they doubled Marshall on the goal - cuz that is where Cutler likes to go. Leaving the dump off guy - Forte - alone is insane, but did Hawk correct that later on, or what??

Bad and good, Packers got more right than wrong in that game, against what I think was a tremendous - but flaky - offense.

[mraynrand]

Then you are intelligent, but naive.

Conversely, you are naive, but intelligent.

[wist43]

Packers D is lined up against an offense with four receivers over 6'4" and a running back who can catch as well as any WR. You want them to defend the Bears as though they are a run first team, when they have to defense 5 pretty talented receivers. Packer need pass rushers who can disrupt plays, get penetration, get hands up, etc., not pretend it's the 70s with Walter Payton on the other side of the LOS.

Just b/c you have 2 DL on the field does not mean you are only committing 2 to rushing the passer, or stopping the run - you are committing 6 guys to gap/rush/run responsibilities at the LOS of scrimmage regardless.

By going with only 2 DL however, you are essentially inviting the opponent to run - and run effectively. Capers might have a case if giving up gobs of rushing yds, easy 1st downs on 3rd and 4, etc, were offset by playing stellar pass defense, but that isn't happening either.

By having at least the 3rd DL, and in obvious passing situations, the occasional 4 man line - with your more talented players on the field, he would be better addressing the hemorrhaging this our run defense, and mixing in the blitz would be more effective at getting pressure. If you're not getting consistent pressure, which they are not, and you're giving the QB a clean and comfortable pocket, then you are very much at the mercy of those 6'4" WR's. As it happens, I thought the DB's played fairly well against the Bears, but that is the exception to the rule the past few years.

[mraynrand]

As it happens, I thought the DB's played fairly well against the Bears, but that is the exception to the rule the past few years.

I liked your post, but I think this is inaccurate.

[woodbuck27]

I liked your post, but I think this is inaccurate.

Your going to claim that the Packer DB's played very well against the Bears tall WR's (Marshall and Jeffrey) and Matt Forte!?

[woodbuck27]

Just b/c you have 2 DL on the field does not mean you are only committing 2 to rushing the passer, or stopping the run - you are committing 6 guys to gap/rush/run responsibilities at the LOS of scrimmage regardless.

By going with only 2 DL however, you are essentially inviting the opponent to run - and run effectively. Capers might have a case if giving up gobs of rushing yds, easy 1st downs on 3rd and 4, etc, were offset by playing stellar pass defense, but that isn't happening either.

By having at least the 3rd DL, and in obvious passing situations, the occasional 4 man line - with your more talented players on the field, he would be better addressing the hemorrhaging this our run defense, and mixing in the blitz would be more effective at getting pressure. If you're not getting consistent pressure, which they are not, and you're giving the QB a clean and comfortable pocket, then you are very much at the mercy of those 6'4" WR's. As it happens, I thought the DB's played fairly well against the Bears, but that is the exception to the rule the past few years.

This statement is accurate and never over stated.

[mraynrand]

Your going to claim that the Packer DB's played very well against the Bears tall WR's (Marshall and Jeffrey)

The past few seasons? Yes.

[woodbuck27]

The past few seasons? Yes.

Your easy to stay a step ahead of 'M' a simple analysis. :-)

[mraynrand]

Your easy to stay a step ahead of 'M' a simple analysis. :-)

Instead of spouting nonsense, go look up the stats for yourself. Secondary has played well against Bears receivers in recent history.

[wist43]

Instead of spouting nonsense, go look up the stats for yourself. Secondary has played well against Bears receivers in recent history.

My comment was a bit out of context in that I intended it in general. The Bears are one of the few teams we've matched up fairly well with over the past few years - for whatever reason. Familiarity more than anything I suppose.

In general, post superbowl, our defense has been a sieve everywhere - especially in 2011 when we set a record for pass defense futility. We were a bit better last year, but certainly nothing to write home about; and then of course the complete blowout embarrassment at the hands of the Niners further exposed Capers.

Earlier this year someone posted a stat which showed that Capers plays more 2-4 nickel than any team in the league. TT went out and invested in the DL; he invested in LB's too, but hit on only 1 (Matthews), Perry never wanted to play LB, and Hawk is "just a guy" - put it all together, and the talent is weighted to the DL. Capers should scheme accordingly, but he doesn't. He sticks to his 2-4 as much as he possibly can... it seems going to a 3 man line is actually a concession for him.

No matter how you slice it, he is not getting results, and hasn't been for quite some time. He needs to go.

[Bretsky]

WIST.....this thread was made for you.....:)
You should be lighting it up.

So clearly IMO TT has let his defensive staff down and the defensive staff has let the organization down as well.

So in your world...give a percentage to TT and DOM. Is is 50% bad personnell...and 50% bad coaching...or weighted more one way ??

[woodbuck27]

Instead of spouting nonsense, go look up the stats for yourself. Secondary has played well against Bears receivers in recent history.

No.

Happy New Year. :smile:

That's better.

[bobblehead]

Conversely, you are naive, but intelligent.

My grandfather told me that when someone starts a sentence and the says "but" ignore everything before that...so thank you :)

[bobblehead]

Your going to claim that the Packer DB's played very well against the Bears tall WR's (Marshall and Jeffrey) and Matt Forte!?

Quite sure we didn't have DB's covering Forte.

[woodbuck27]

Quite sure we didn't have DB's covering Forte.

Sometimes that was too obvious...but it wasn't once he got past the DLmen and burned our LBers.

I checked and Matt Forte had 22 carries and scored 3 TD's.

He was stopped 6-7 times by Packer DB's. Most of those stops were by Tramon Williams. MD Jennings and Sam Shields chipped in.

A DL stopped him another half dozen times and the rest of the stops were picked up by a LB.

Here bobblehead for your convenience:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=331229003&period=1

[bobblehead]

Sometimes that was too obvious...but it wasn't once he got past the DLmen and burned our LBers.

I checked and Matt Forte had 22 carries and scored 3 TD's.

He was stopped 6-7 times by Packer DB's. Most of those stops were by Tramon Williams. MD Jennings and Sam Shields chipped in.

A DL stopped him another half dozen times and the rest of the stops were picked up by a LB.

Here bobblehead for your convenience:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=331229003&period=1

My bad woody. I read it as they had him in coverage, not that they had to tackle him many times. It is true that our LB's tackle so badly that our DB's had to tackle him many times.

[mraynrand]

My comment was a bit out of context in that I intended it in general. The Bears are one of the few teams we've matched up fairly well with over the past few years - for whatever reason. Familiarity more than anything I suppose.

In general, post superbowl, our defense has been a sieve everywhere - especially in 2011 when we set a record for pass defense futility. We were a bit better last year, but certainly nothing to write home about; and then of course the complete blowout embarrassment at the hands of the Niners further exposed Capers.

Earlier this year someone posted a stat which showed that Capers plays more 2-4 nickel than any team in the league. TT went out and invested in the DL; he invested in LB's too, but hit on only 1 (Matthews), Perry never wanted to play LB, and Hawk is "just a guy" - put it all together, and the talent is weighted to the DL. Capers should scheme accordingly, but he doesn't. He sticks to his 2-4 as much as he possibly can... it seems going to a 3 man line is actually a concession for him.

No matter how you slice it, he is not getting results, and hasn't been for quite some time. He needs to go.

I just wanted to correct a point of fact, and the "spouting nonsense" was not directed at you, but at Woody. As someone who spouts nonsense, I can identify it pretty quickly.

Anyway, I think the Packer have pretty decent corners and they play well. They get exposed when the entire secondary is not on the same page, which seems to happen too often. I think some of that results from what you generally comment about, and that is that players are often forced to play away from their strengths - they are 'out of position.' If nothing else, even with these fish out of water (man corners playing zone, DL playing OLB) it would be nice to see one game with everyone assignment-sure, even if they are marginal in that assignment. (For example, it would be nice to have Perry play zone when everyone else is playing zone and not screw the whole defense by playing man).

[ThunderDan]

Are you complaining about Belichick this year? Their D has given up more yards per game than ours! By a yard per game.

Funny how perception blinds the results.

Woody, any answer to this?

[Bretsky]

I think ST play is hurting this year because of injuries to starters. The best thing about ST this year is the resurgence of Crosby.

Our D has had issues keeping contain and tackling for a while. I'm sure the coaches harp on it every day but it isn't sinking in. Will a new voice (DC) make a difference or do we need players who are more disciplined?



When was the last time you thoght the coverage and return units on Special Teams was a strength ? Take the punter and kicker out.
I think we've been poor for way too long now

[Rutnstrut]

Why does this have to be analyzed and over analyzed, bottom line. The defense sucks donkey balls, it has for quite some time, it's Dom's fault. Fire his ass!!!

[Smeefers]

It's strange watching everyone agree and still argue. Well, I might as well jump in as well. I'm fairly confident that our corners are the only highlight of our D as a unit. I'm comfortable with williams, shields, house and hayward. I think they are all talented corners. Any complaints are generally salary driven. I don't expect them to play perfect, but I do expect them to play well and overall, I think they do that - generally speaking. I will admit that INT's are down this year, but I believe that is due to a systemic break down of the defense as a whole, not the players on the field.

I agree that Dom has lost whatever edge he had. For what ever reason, he's not seeing the game like he has in the past. To many mistakes, blown calls and poor personnel groupings along with not playing to our strengths. Be that as it may, focusing on a failed goal line stand as a rallying cry to his downfall is just ridiculous. A goal line stand by a defense is a rarity, not the norm. We lost those stands because we lost our man to man battles. They lined up small and so we matched it. If we would of came out in our goal line defense to stop the run, they would have had an easy pitch and catch over us. Lets face it, the bears did to us what we always do to other teams. They spread us out and took advantage of our weaknesses. Lets not act like a different play call there would of changed anything. Now, if you want to talk about our third down efficiency or our complete lack of communication or our misuse of personnel, then I'm all ears.

Oh, and Hawk has been, by far, our best LB this year. He's played great, he's paid appropriately, its time to put that gripe to bed. When he starts playing like garbage, then by all means call for his head.

[bobblehead]

It's strange watching everyone agree and still argue. Well, I might as well jump in as well. I'm fairly confident that our corners are the only highlight of our D as a unit. I'm comfortable with williams, shields, house and hayward. I think they are all talented corners. Any complaints are generally salary driven. I don't expect them to play perfect, but I do expect them to play well and overall, I think they do that - generally speaking. I will admit that INT's are down this year, but I believe that is due to a systemic break down of the defense as a whole, not the players on the field.

I agree that Dom has lost whatever edge he had. For what ever reason, he's not seeing the game like he has in the past. To many mistakes, blown calls and poor personnel groupings along with not playing to our strengths. Be that as it may, focusing on a failed goal line stand as a rallying cry to his downfall is just ridiculous. A goal line stand by a defense is a rarity, not the norm. We lost those stands because we lost our man to man battles. They lined up small and so we matched it. If we would of came out in our goal line defense to stop the run, they would have had an easy pitch and catch over us. Lets face it, the bears did to us what we always do to other teams. They spread us out and took advantage of our weaknesses. Lets not act like a different play call there would of changed anything. Now, if you want to talk about our third down efficiency or our complete lack of communication or our misuse of personnel, then I'm all ears.

Oh, and Hawk has been, by far, our best LB this year. He's played great, he's paid appropriately, its time to put that gripe to bed. When he starts playing like garbage, then by all means call for his head.

NOt a bad post. Agree with most. Our DL actually hasn't been bad, they just have to play with 2 on the field most of the time.

[woodbuck27]

Woody, any answer to this?

Me complain about Bill Belichick?

If I ever did I was possibly wrong to do so, based on his track record.

Check that out when you can spare time from chasing me around the forum.

[pbmax]

NOt a bad post. Agree with most. Our DL actually hasn't been bad, they just have to play with 2 on the field most of the time.

Don't agree this year. Raji is actually two gapping but he is not making any plays. When he freelances, he has been having the usual problems, though he has cut down on it from the last two years. His doesn't have much shed in him when head up on a Guard and cannot utilize his quickness.

Pickett has been hurt and double teams are moving him. What was at one time a promising run D has collapsed. The 3 man front has not been much better. They still get into way to many 2 and 6 and worse.

Jolly was also wearing down a bit, which had to be expected.

[Bossman641]

Don't agree this year. Raji is actually two gapping but he is not making any plays. When he freelances, he has been having the usual problems, though he has cut down on it from the last two years. His doesn't have much shed in him when head up on a Guard and cannot utilize his quickness.

Pickett has been hurt and double teams are moving him. What was at one time a promising run D has collapsed. The 3 man front has not been much better. They still get into way to many 2 and 6 and worse.

Jolly was also wearing down a bit, which had to be expected.

This

Capers whole defense is based on stopping the run to trot out the exotic stuff on third and long. Teams have been in manageable 2nd and 3rd downs since about week 6 when the run D fell off a cliff.

[Pugger]

What is Raji's problem this year? Even if he's unhappy with his role on the team this is a contract year and one would think he'd be playing lights out for his next big contract but he has been mostly invisible this year. If he won't show any desire now why would anybody think he'd be any better after he gets paid? :?

[red]

i think we should all be a little worried and pissed off that m3 came out in an interview yesterday and said he "was in love with our defense"

really?

what is there to love about this d? the inability to stop the run? the inability to stop the pass?

concerned would be the nicest way i could describe how i feel about our D

and this shows m3's major flaw, he can't smell the shit from the shit pile, if we get a new d=cord or special teams coach it will only be after TT or mark murphy forces M3 to get rid of them. just like TT had to do with the bob sanders mess

[Pugger]

i think we should all be a little worried and pissed off that m3 came out in an interview yesterday and said he "was in love with our defense"

really?

what is there to love about this d? the inability to stop the run? the inability to stop the pass?

concerned would be the nicest way i could describe how i feel about our D

and this shows m3's major flaw, he can't smell the shit from the shit pile, if we get a new d=cord or special teams coach it will only be after TT or mark murphy forces M3 to get rid of them. just like TT had to do with the bob sanders mess

Of course Mike isn't going to step up to the podium and tell everyone his defense sucks eggs even if its true. Do you believe TT had to get Mike to can Sanders?

[mraynrand]

What is Raji's problem this year? Even if he's unhappy with his role on the team this is a contract year and one would think he'd be playing lights out for his next big contract but he has been mostly invisible this year. If he won't show any desire now why would anybody think he'd be any better after he gets paid? :?

I don't think it's a desire thing. I'm guessing he just isn't all that good at what they're making him do. He's in rock-hardplace territory - if he rebels against the coaches for putting him in a spot where he can't shine, he looks like a malcontent, but then he doesn't look like that disruptive force from 2010. Still, scouts will know this, he knows this, and he'll be looking for that team that wants to overpay for a big body that can rush the passer from the tackle position.

[woodbuck27]

Of course Mike isn't going to step up to the podium and tell everyone his defense sucks eggs even if its true. Do you believe TT had to get Mike to can Sanders?

:huh:

[mraynrand]

i think we should all be a little worried and pissed off that m3 came out in an interview yesterday and said he "was in love with our defense"

Not worried. Some of it's necessary coach-speak. But I also think he believes it. He knows that a lot of the problems are coming from guys being dinged up or missing, so I'm certain he's talking about all the guys that remain who are giving everything they've got - which if you think about it is most of the defense. The effort is great; the ability, average. MM loves the effort.

[pbmax]

I don't think it's a desire thing. I'm guessing he just isn't all that good at what they're making him do. He's in rock-hardplace territory - if he rebels against the coaches for putting him in a spot where he can't shine, he looks like a malcontent, but then he doesn't look like that disruptive force from 2010. Still, scouts will know this, he knows this, and he'll be looking for that team that wants to overpay for a big body that can rush the passer from the tackle position.

I agree with this. From Raji's perspective, in a contract year, he has swallowed his desire for a monster payday and subsumed his personal agenda to the team's.

Could he be better at this? I have no idea. His game is built on quickness and the development of technique is something I have very little info on.

But it does get to the question that others have raised: are there too many round holes for this square hole defense? And will Capers continue to adjust or does Thompson?

[Pugger]

Not worried. Some of it's necessary coach-speak. But I also think he believes it. He knows that a lot of the problems are coming from guys being dinged up or missing, so I'm certain he's talking about all the guys that remain who are giving everything they've got - which if you think about it is most of the defense. The effort is great; the ability, average. MM loves the effort.

Yes, we must say the guys we are trotting out there are trying but IMO they don't have the ability. Most of them are better off as backups and/or ST players.

[woodbuck27]

Not worried. Some of it's necessary coach-speak. But I also think he believes it. He knows that a lot of the problems are coming from guys being dinged up or missing, so I'm certain he's talking about all the guys that remain who are giving everything they've got - which if you think about it is most of the defense. The effort is great; the ability, average. MM loves the effort.

Your point is certainly worth more thought.

[denverYooper]

Not worried. Some of it's necessary coach-speak. But I also think he believes it. He knows that a lot of the problems are coming from guys being dinged up or missing, so I'm certain he's talking about all the guys that remain who are giving everything they've got - which if you think about it is most of the defense. The effort is great; the ability, average. MM loves the effort.

This. McCarthy believes not only in dancing with who he brung, he's going to be a consummate gentleman until the end of the night.

The other thing is that the problems on Green Bay's defense are very well known at this point and they've learned to cope with those to some extent. Their flaws are known knowns, so it will be a surprise to no one if Kaep runs for 20+ yards here or there. The trick for the Packers is to limit that to 1-2. I don't even think they're going to approach this game with the idea that the defense is going to lock down the 49ers -- they're going to try to avoid getting gashed and try to control the ball on offense.

In a weird way, I feel better about it than a 12-4 Packers team that comes in with an overestimated defense and gets planted like last year because their offense struggles and their game plan breaks down. This year they have no such illusions. They're going to prepare to play the whole game differently on both sides of the ball.

[mraynrand]

The other thing is that the problems on Green Bay's defense are very well known at this point and they've learned to cope with those to some extent. Their flaws are known knowns, so it will be a surprise to no one if Kaep runs for 20+ yards here or there. The trick for the Packers is to limit that to 1-2. I don't even think they're going to approach this game with the idea that the defense is going to lock down the 49ers -- they're going to try to avoid getting gashed and try to control the ball on offense.

I agree. I think their defensive strategy is going to be to try and keep everything in front of them, reduce the absolutely killer 20+ plays and hope someone can make a play if a ball is thrown a little off or maybe recover a loose ball. Ball control, no mistakes, efficient red-zone offense will hopefully help them put the pressure on SF.

[woodbuck27]

Offense Grade A ... Defense Grade B -... ST's Grade B ... Fair Officiating ... Alert Coaching !

GET's IT DONE.

[pbmax]

I agree. I think their defensive strategy is going to be to try and keep everything in front of them, reduce the absolutely killer 20+ plays and hope someone can make a play if a ball is thrown a little off or maybe recover a loose ball. Ball control, no mistakes, efficient red-zone offense will hopefully help them put the pressure on SF.

Given M3's comments, I expect much the same on early downs to control the run and read option game and then something different on 3rd down when they expect pass.

[Rutnstrut]

Stubby is either with the fire Capers movement or against it, since he seems against it, fire his ass also;)

[bobblehead]

Stubby is either with the fire Capers movement or against it, since he seems against it, fire his ass also;)

You nor I have any idea what he is thinking regarding firing Capers. There is simply no reliable information out there to draw a conclusion.

[red]

yeah, but you don't come out and say you love the defense.

you say you're confident in the defense, or they better play their asses off or they're gone of something

saying you love the defense makes him look delusional because there hasn't been a damn think to "love" about our d in awhile

[mraynrand]

yeah, but you don't come out and say you love the defense.

you say you're confident in the defense, or they better play their asses off or they're gone of something

saying you love the defense makes him look delusional because there hasn't been a damn think to "love" about our d in awhile

Every coach will handle it differently, depending on his sense of his players. Some players respond well to a public calling out while others will get disgruntled. Stubby has to know his players and not alienate them. He was pretty vocal about the defense collapsing late in games following Rodgers' injury and McMillian (cut) House (benched) and Banjo (benched) paid a price. But if you are riding an old mule, you can only whip it so much before it quits.

[gbgary]

I don't feel he's going anywhere. I think he/they (the d) would be just fine if we'd play a more physical style...the way we used to. I guess they feel our guys just can't play like that. draft some that can.

[pbmax]

Jersey Al - ALLGBP ‏@JerseyAlGBP 25m
Wow. I just saw the official scouting report on BJ Raji before he was drafted. "Laziest player on the team...Can dominate or get a GM fired"

Jersey Al - ALLGBP ‏@JerseyAlGBP 22m
"He relies too much on his speed to break free of the offensive linemen and will lose battles once he lets the blocker lock on."

Only took me five year to catch on to half of this. I am not sure that he is the laziest though.

[denverYooper]

Jersey Al - ALLGBP ‏@JerseyAlGBP 25m
Wow. I just saw the official scouting report on BJ Raji before he was drafted. "Laziest player on the team...Can dominate or get a GM fired"

Jersey Al - ALLGBP ‏@JerseyAlGBP 22m
"He relies too much on his speed to break free of the offensive linemen and will lose battles once he lets the blocker lock on."

Only took me five year to catch on to half of this. I am not sure that he is the laziest though.

The OFFICIAL scouting report? From the Packers?

[mraynrand]

The OFFICIAL scouting report? From the Packers?

Probably leaked by Capers. Trying to save his job.

[pbmax]

The OFFICIAL scouting report? From the Packers?

Yeah, he is a little goofy and I sent a Tweet about that exact question. No response.

I suggest sending him a message as well.

ANSWER: he has no comment

[pbmax]

Jersey Al - ALLGBP ‏@JerseyAlGBP 2h
"He relies too much on his speed to break free of the offensive linemen and will lose battles once he lets the blocker lock on."

PackerRats.com ‏@PackerRats 1h
@jerseyalgbp So where does one get an "official scouting report" from?

Jersey Al - ALLGBP ‏@JerseyAlGBP 1h
@PackerRats no comment on that...

PackerRats.com ‏@PackerRats 40m
@jerseyalgbp Is there such a thing as _the_ "Official Scouting Report" or does that simply mean from reliable source?

Jersey Al - ALLGBP ‏@JerseyAlGBP 22m
@PackerRats There is - on every player. That's not what it's called - those are my terms for it. And that's all I'm going to say...

[Smeefers]

i think we should all be a little worried and pissed off that m3 came out in an interview yesterday and said he "was in love with our defense"

really?

what is there to love about this d? the inability to stop the run? the inability to stop the pass?

concerned would be the nicest way i could describe how i feel about our D

and this shows m3's major flaw, he can't smell the shit from the shit pile, if we get a new d=cord or special teams coach it will only be after TT or mark murphy forces M3 to get rid of them. just like TT had to do with the bob sanders mess

I consider this a non news item. It's just like the mike tomlan bell better than lacy comment. It would of been a story if he would of came out and said "man, I really missed the boat there, didn't I?" Same thing here. MM is not going to put his D coord on notice a week before a play off game.

[denverYooper]

So, the internet then?

I'll occasionally browse Al's site if I'm just bored and grazing content, but I don't really pick up anything novel there. He's part of the Packers blogosphere that just kind of recycles the same Packers information and opinion built on whatever quotes are released from the official spigot. He does add a bit more perspective around draft time, because he apparently spends a lot of time caring about potential NFL players, so maybe there's some mystical Necronomicon that only initiates may peer into after reciting an incantation. I doubt it, though. This one feels akin to the nameless"sources" who come around.

[Smeefers]

Yes, we must say the guys we are trotting out there are trying but IMO they don't have the ability. Most of them are better off as backups and/or ST players.

I think if you brushed across a wide range of team's fans, you'd find most of them find most of their player's just aren't starting quality. I think the expectations just have to be lowered. Getting a team like the 96 pack is unheard of these days because slightly above average talent is going at a premium nowadays. When you overpay for that talent, your back ups suffer, and generally it spells doom for the team. So, you can either have a whole bunch of average guys, or a handfull of better players with garbage or untested talent around them. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Actually, that's one of the bonus' to draft and develop. You underpay your hopefully good drafted players.

[mraynrand]

Jersey Al - ALLGBP ‏@JerseyAlGBP 2h
"He relies too much on his speed to break free of the offensive linemen and will lose battles once he lets the blocker lock on."

PackerRats.com ‏@PackerRats 1h
@jerseyalgbp So where does one get an "official scouting report" from?

Jersey Al - ALLGBP ‏@JerseyAlGBP 1h
@PackerRats no comment on that...

PackerRats.com ‏@PackerRats 40m
@jerseyalgbp Is there such a thing as _the_ "Official Scouting Report" or does that simply mean from reliable source?

Jersey Al - ALLGBP ‏@JerseyAlGBP 22m
@PackerRats There is - on every player. That's not what it's called - those are my terms for it. And that's all I'm going to say...

Jersey Al = fraud = Robert Ferguson

[woodbuck27]

Jersey Al - ALLGBP ‏@JerseyAlGBP 25m
Wow. I just saw the official scouting report on BJ Raji before he was drafted. "Laziest player on the team...Can dominate or get a GM fired"

Jersey Al - ALLGBP ‏@JerseyAlGBP 22m
"He relies too much on his speed to break free of the offensive linemen and will lose battles once he lets the blocker lock on."

Only took me five year to catch on to half of this. I am not sure that he is the laziest though.

If lazy implies 'not grunting' ?

No.

[woodbuck27]

Jersey Al = fraud = Robert Ferguson

Jersey Al turned to *a 'Coy' stance.

* Coy as in... showing reluctance, especially when becoming insincere or affected (or trapped); to reveal one's opinions as in a firm commitment of a particular stance.

[pbmax]

Silverstein writes about the difference between the Steelers D and the Packers D: Youth

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/dom-capers-recipe-for-defensive-success-gets-tweaked-b99175935z1-238548621.html

[woodbuck27]

Silverstein writes about the difference between the Steelers D and the Packers D: Youth

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/dom-capers-recipe-for-defensive-success-gets-tweaked-b99175935z1-238548621.html

Thank you pbmax.

[pbmax]

Packers should consider this Alabama Mom for the 2nd safety position.

http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/19bfi1snaugcggif/ku-medium.gif

[red]

Silverstein writes about the difference between the Steelers D and the Packers D: Youth

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/dom-capers-recipe-for-defensive-success-gets-tweaked-b99175935z1-238548621.html

so, we're back to it being tt's fault

it is kind of stupid that we've been the youngest team in the nfl for about 7 or 8 years running now

[wist43]

i think we should all be a little worried and pissed off that m3 came out in an interview yesterday and said he "was in love with our defense"

really?

what is there to love about this d? the inability to stop the run? the inability to stop the pass?

concerned would be the nicest way i could describe how i feel about our D

and this shows m3's major flaw, he can't smell the shit from the shit pile, if we get a new d=cord or special teams coach it will only be after TT or mark murphy forces M3 to get rid of them. just like TT had to do with the bob sanders mess

Seriously, I don't think MM gets it... he won't fire Capers, hasn't even crossed his mind.

[red]

Seriously, I don't think MM gets it... he won't fire Capers, hasn't even crossed his mind.

exactly. m3 is too loyal to his coaches

look at slocum, his special teams have been horrible for years, yet the clown still has a job

and, since i think its related. our last head coach, who a lot of packer fans didn't want fired because "well just look at his winning record, he's a winner, he's one of the greatest coaches ever", is about to get canned for the 3rd or 4th time since we canned him because he's never been able to win without a HOF QB. his own players think he should be fired for crying out loud

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/01/03/some-dolphins-players-want-sherman-out/

i'm just sick of seeing the same fucking mistakes year after year with nothing ever being fixed even though the coach always says "we'll get that fixed"

[Bretsky]

so, we're back to it being tt's fault

it is kind of stupid that we've been the youngest team in the nfl for about 7 or 8 years running now



Do you think we have above average talent on Defense ? I don't. Capers is dealt a 5 in blackjack and the dealer is showing an ace.

[Bretsky]

i think we should all be a little worried and pissed off that m3 came out in an interview yesterday and said he "was in love with our defense"

really?

what is there to love about this d? the inability to stop the run? the inability to stop the pass?

concerned would be the nicest way i could describe how i feel about our D

and this shows m3's major flaw, he can't smell the shit from the shit pile, if we get a new d=cord or special teams coach it will only be after TT or mark murphy forces M3 to get rid of them. just like TT had to do with the bob sanders mess



GOTTA AGREE
At minimal he should be noting our defense has to imporove soon...........inexcusable is the world that comes to mind

And Dom is NOT our worst coach

FIRE SLOCUM !

[red]

Do you think we have above average talent on Defense ? I don't. Capers is dealt a 5 in blackjack and the dealer is showing an ace.
well, the GM keeps drafting defensive players, if those are the wrong players for the system you either need to change the system, or get a GM that drafts the right guys for the system you have

what we do know, is capers is not able to use the current talent he's given

and i do think we have some nice talent on that D, like i've said somewhere else (or to myself), the sum of our parts just don't add up to match the final product

[Bretsky]

well, the GM keeps drafting defensive players, if those are the wrong players for the system you either need to change the system, or get a GM that drafts the right guys for the system you have

what we do know, is capers is not able to use the current talent he's given


Honestly I'm not sure which it is. I don't think TT gives Dom enough talent and I don't think Dom uses it the best either. At this point we seems to have pissed away a few 1st rounders lately though

[red]

Honestly I'm not sure which it is. I don't think TT gives Dom enough talent and I don't think Dom uses it the best either. At this point we seems to have pissed away a few 1st rounders lately though

seems like we've pissed away some whole drafts

[Smeefers]

exactly. m3 is too loyal to his coaches

look at slocum, his special teams have been horrible for years, yet the clown still has a job

and, since i think its related. our last head coach, who a lot of packer fans didn't want fired because "well just look at his winning record, he's a winner, he's one of the greatest coaches ever", is about to get canned for the 3rd or 4th time since we canned him because he's never been able to win without a HOF QB. his own players think he should be fired for crying out loud

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/01/03/some-dolphins-players-want-sherman-out/

i'm just sick of seeing the same fucking mistakes year after year with nothing ever being fixed even though the coach always says "we'll get that fixed"

Wait, people really liked the sherminator?

[red]

Wait, people really liked the sherminator?


the sherman debate was almost exactly the same as the mccarthy debate

you mention firing sherman and people would flip out bringing up winning %, and blaming the players and injuries and other coaches and everything under the sun

those were the ones known as the kool aide drinkers. they are some of the same people that say "why would you fire capers? we're winning with him"

there were a lot of people that thought it was just a horrible idea to fire sherman

[mraynrand]

there were a lot of people that thought it was just a horrible idea to fire sherman

There was a pretty reasonable separation between evaluating Sherman the Coach and Sherman the GM. Most everyone wanted Sherman the GM gone.

[pbmax]

I think the article makes a fair point. If Capers current system is anything like LeBeau's, the he might the the wrong coach for the Packers.

Its clear he has dialed some of it back, but redesigning your defense is not always successful. Needing to be simple for your players and complex for the offense to read takes time to work out. His D plan might not fit. And he might not have the assistant coach to help that along.

[Smeefers]

Well, this kind of sucks, you know why? The "fire em" crowd is always going to be right... eventually.

I guess what gets me is that there's a lot of "can his ass" without any idea what to do after that. It smacks me like the Jay Cutler thing in Chicago. He's serviceable, but who's better on the market? No one.

Now, there's a hand full of HC's that might be better than MM, but you're wandering around in the Bill Cower, Tony Dungy area. Unless you can coax them out of a very comfortable retirement, I don't think there's anyone on the market who's got any better of a shot of taking our team all the way. Especially when you consider that if all things are equal, stability trumps and trumps high.

As for Dom Capers and Slocum, there really isn't that much of a ground swell to get rid of em. If there is, I think TT and MM are completely immune to the talk. Would you really want your GM and Head Coach to be influenced by a majority of the fans? My only hope is that the Pack can attract a coach like Wade Phillips (Texans) or Ray Horton (Browns). Without someone clearly better waiting in the shadows, I don't think Dom is going anywhere.

[red]

Well, this kind of sucks, you know why? The "fire em" crowd is always going to be right... eventually.

I guess what gets me is that there's a lot of "can his ass" without any idea what to do after that. It smacks me like the Jay Cutler thing in Chicago. He's serviceable, but who's better on the market? No one.

Now, there's a hand full of HC's that might be better than MM, but you're wandering around in the Bill Cower, Tony Dungy area. Unless you can coax them out of a very comfortable retirement, I don't think there's anyone on the market who's got any better of a shot of taking our team all the way. Especially when you consider that if all things are equal, stability trumps and trumps high.

As for Dom Capers and Slocum, there really isn't that much of a ground swell to get rid of em. If there is, I think TT and MM are completely immune to the talk. Would you really want your GM and Head Coach to be influenced by a majority of the fans? My only hope is that the Pack can attract a coach like Wade Phillips (Texans) or Ray Horton (Browns). Without someone clearly better waiting in the shadows, I don't think Dom is going anywhere.

that assuming that m3 is in the upper tier of head coaches. i'm not convinced that m3 is that much better then the round of head coaches that just got canned. and IMO, m3 is almost the exact same tier of coach that sherman was

the fact that you think only a coach like cower would be an improvement over m3 leads me to believe you are drinking the cool aide by the gallons

and no ground swell to get rid of capers and slocum? do you live with your head in the sand? pre and post game call in shows are dominated by callers demanding we get rid of both of them. all packer forums are filled with threads dedicated to getting rid of those two. during the games the announcers talk about how fans want them gone

thinking that there is a very limited amount of guys that could replace the clowns we have, means that you rate our coaches way higher then you should be.

i suppose rodgers is the best QB of all time?
jordy is the best WR in the NFL?
lacy is the best RB?
tramon is the best CB?
EDS is the best center?
raji is the best d-lineman?
hawk is the best MLB?
clay is the best defensive player in the nfl?

[sooner6600]

This just in.

Maybe the players win inspite of poor coaching.

Why can't our defence turn around and intercept some of the ducks that come thier way?
With 6 minutes in 4th qtr they almost turn the balls way.

Are they looking for the game clock so they can go home and choom?


There it is done it; an actual Post.

Go Packers Freeze the mighty 49'ers.

Please beat -20; so I don't have to talke about it to the Sooner Nation.
There was only 50,000 souls at the Ice Bowl. One can look it up.

Now we have over 80,000 which is the population of Green Bay.:oops:

[Joemailman]

Well, this kind of sucks, you know why? The "fire em" crowd is always going to be right... eventually.

I guess what gets me is that there's a lot of "can his ass" without any idea what to do after that. It smacks me like the Jay Cutler thing in Chicago. He's serviceable, but who's better on the market? No one.

Now, there's a hand full of HC's that might be better than MM, but you're wandering around in the Bill Cower, Tony Dungy area. Unless you can coax them out of a very comfortable retirement, I don't think there's anyone on the market who's got any better of a shot of taking our team all the way. Especially when you consider that if all things are equal, stability trumps and trumps high.

As for Dom Capers and Slocum, there really isn't that much of a ground swell to get rid of em. If there is, I think TT and MM are completely immune to the talk. Would you really want your GM and Head Coach to be influenced by a majority of the fans? My only hope is that the Pack can attract a coach like Wade Phillips (Texans) or Ray Horton (Browns). Without someone clearly better waiting in the shadows, I don't think Dom is going anywhere.

Looks like Wade Phillips and the rest of the assistants are out in Houston. Romeo Crennel to be the new DC. Phillips and TT are good friends...

[Pugger]

the sherman debate was almost exactly the same as the mccarthy debate

you mention firing sherman and people would flip out bringing up winning %, and blaming the players and injuries and other coaches and everything under the sun

those were the ones known as the kool aide drinkers. they are some of the same people that say "why would you fire capers? we're winning with him"

there were a lot of people that thought it was just a horrible idea to fire sherman

Sherman wasn't a bad coach but he was lousy GM.

[Pugger]

Well, this kind of sucks, you know why? The "fire em" crowd is always going to be right... eventually.

I guess what gets me is that there's a lot of "can his ass" without any idea what to do after that. It smacks me like the Jay Cutler thing in Chicago. He's serviceable, but who's better on the market? No one.

Now, there's a hand full of HC's that might be better than MM, but you're wandering around in the Bill Cower, Tony Dungy area. Unless you can coax them out of a very comfortable retirement, I don't think there's anyone on the market who's got any better of a shot of taking our team all the way. Especially when you consider that if all things are equal, stability trumps and trumps high.

As for Dom Capers and Slocum, there really isn't that much of a ground swell to get rid of em. If there is, I think TT and MM are completely immune to the talk. Would you really want your GM and Head Coach to be influenced by a majority of the fans? My only hope is that the Pack can attract a coach like Wade Phillips (Texans) or Ray Horton (Browns). Without someone clearly better waiting in the shadows, I don't think Dom is going anywhere.

What's that saying? If you listen to the fans you'll eventually be one of them? I don't think Capers system sucks but we just don't have the horses to run it - especially in the middle and the back end/secondary. The D wasn't all that terrible earlier this season. What is the reason it collapsed? Injuries? Bad offensive play after AR got hurt? Both?

[denverYooper]

Looks like Wade Phillips and the rest of the assistants are out in Houston. Romeo Crennel to be the new DC. Phillips and TT are good friends...

I don't know if Wade would be an upgrade over Capers, it seems like his defenses are prone to getting picked apart by able QBs. I'm still holding out hope for Horton (who is interviewing with the Vikes this week).

Singletary might also be available. For his flaws at HC, I still believe he is the reason that SF became a linebacker school. Green Bay could use some of that.

[red]

Sherman wasn't a bad coach but he was lousy GM.

see, people still think sherman was a good coach

after GB no one wanted him as a head coach so he became the OC of the texans, who were mediocre at best

he then went to the college ranks and became the head coach of texas a&m. he signed a big 7 year deal. he was canned

now he's the OC of the miami dolphins because no one wants him as a head coach at any level. and he's failed so badly there that his own players want him fired

so

is/was he really a good head coach. or did we just think he was because he was our coach and the packers would only hire the best and brightest?

[Pugger]

see, people still think sherman was a good coach

after GB no one wanted him as a head coach so he became the OC of the texans, who were mediocre at best

he then went to the college ranks and became the head coach of texas a&m. he signed a big 7 year deal. he lasted for two lossing seasons before he was canned

now he's the OC of the miami dolphins because no one wants him as a head coach at any level. and he's failed so badly there that his own players want him fired

so

is/was he really a good head coach. or did we just think he was because he was our coach and the packers would only hire the best and brightest?

You are right, he prob is a better position/coordinator coach than HC. But would he have had better success in GB if his GM was better?

[red]

You are right, he prob is a better position/coordinator coach than HC. But would he have had better success in GB if his GM was better?

IMO, no

[Bretsky]

Well, this kind of sucks, you know why? The "fire em" crowd is always going to be right... eventually.

I guess what gets me is that there's a lot of "can his ass" without any idea what to do after that. It smacks me like the Jay Cutler thing in Chicago. He's serviceable, but who's better on the market? No one.

Now, there's a hand full of HC's that might be better than MM, but you're wandering around in the Bill Cower, Tony Dungy area. Unless you can coax them out of a very comfortable retirement, I don't think there's anyone on the market who's got any better of a shot of taking our team all the way. Especially when you consider that if all things are equal, stability trumps and trumps high.

As for Dom Capers and Slocum, there really isn't that much of a ground swell to get rid of em. If there is, I think TT and MM are completely immune to the talk. Would you really want your GM and Head Coach to be influenced by a majority of the fans? My only hope is that the Pack can attract a coach like Wade Phillips (Texans) or Ray Horton (Browns). Without someone clearly better waiting in the shadows, I don't think Dom is going anywhere.



I get your points on DOM
but
I've got a dog turd in the back yard I'd hire over the other guy

FIRE SLOCUM !

[Bretsky]

What's that saying? If you listen to the fans you'll eventually be one of them? I don't think Capers system sucks but we just don't have the horses to run it - especially in the middle and the back end/secondary. The D wasn't all that terrible earlier this season. What is the reason it collapsed? Injuries? Bad offensive play after AR got hurt? Both?



are you saying TT let us down then ? I don't buy that the defense was every above average and it's hard to argue we have the personnell to be above average. "wasn't that terrible".....that doesn't sound remotely good to me. It has been bad the last couple years. Do you see it turning around ? If not it's time to start throwing darts :)

[Bretsky]

I don't know if Wade would be an upgrade over Capers, it seems like his defenses are prone to getting picked apart by able QBs. I'm still holding out hope for Horton (who is interviewing with the Vikes this week).

Singletary might also be available. For his flaws at HC, I still believe he is the reason that SF became a linebacker school. Green Bay could use some of that.


Horton is the Captain Obvious Choice that EVERYBODY in here wants I think. Odds are he'll be gone

[Bretsky]

You are right, he prob is a better position/coordinator coach than HC. But would he have had better success in GB if his GM was better?


I'd say yes. His drafts were terrible. He'd have at least a shot to succeed with more talent. I didn't hate Sherman the coach but it was time to move on. TT and Sherman were not going to exist well and a GM wants to bring in his own guy.

[Rodgers12]

Seriously, I don't think MM gets it... he won't fire Capers, hasn't even crossed his mind.

It's not as easy to fire a coordinator as say, a position coach like Slocum (well, technically, Slocum is a coordinator). Folks think fire Capers and be done with it. But firing Capers usually means most, if not all, of the defensive assistants are also fired.

[Joemailman]

It's not as easy to fire a coordinator as say, a position coach like Slocum (well, technically, Slocum is a coordinator). Folks think fire Capers and be done with it. But firing Capers usually means most, if not all, of the defensive assistants are also fired.

Given the fact that young and (I believe) talented players like House, McMillian and Burnett don't seem to have progressed, I sometimes wonder if the position coaches are as much of the problem as Capers.

[red]

Given the fact that young and (I believe) talented players like House, McMillian and Burnett don't seem to have progressed, I sometimes wonder if the position coaches are as much of the problem as Capers.

right there with you joe

[Rodgers12]

Given the fact that young and (I believe) talented players like House, McMillian and Burnett don't seem to have progressed, I sometimes wonder if the position coaches are as much of the problem as Capers.

You could be right.

I still think House, McMillian and Burnett, et al. are average at best. That's on Mr. Polar Bear.

Under Capers, Collins, inconsistent in past years, did blossomed into an All-Pro. Undrafted FAs like T-Will and Shields, while not shutdown corners, developed into solid contributors. Bishop progressed the short time he was here. The Claymaker became The Claymaker.

I feel the urge to blame Ted Thompson. :)

[Bretsky]

right there with you joe


Me too I think; I'm not sure there is any defensive coach I'd care about that much if he left. I love the intensity of Kevin Greene.....but the development at LB....not sure

With that being said, I continue to like all of our offensive coaches.

I know some have blasted our OL coach; I continue to be luke warm on Campen and would not consider letting him go. I think he's average and truth be told Campen should be given CREDIT this year

Edgar Bennett deserves kudos and our RB's have developed nicely.

Tom Clements...solid OC who many have tried stealing from us...and he's always been a stellar QB coach. Keep him as well

I'm not sure if I care about any of the defensive staff

[pbmax]

I don't think Capers and his guys do as good a job as the offensive side in taking the talent that is there and forming a cohesive whole.

McCarthy has had two to three completely different O lines and made it work, usually ugly but functional. He has had very different WRs (Driver and Jennings) and widely divergent talents at TE and RB.

His offense has changed with all of them. Rodgers might be the lynchpin that allows that to happen in the pass game and checking out of bad plays.

Capers D hasn't had that since Collins but there were communication issues then too. The rest of the D keeps getting fit into the same holes and there are some odd fits. He has adjusted his D line for Raji, but there has not been payoff on that except for certain games since 2010.

[pbmax]

that assuming that m3 is in the upper tier of head coaches. i'm not convinced that m3 is that much better then the round of head coaches that just got canned. and IMO, m3 is almost the exact same tier of coach that sherman was


Schwartz, Wiz, Kubiak, Chud, Munchak, Shanny, Frazier, Schiano

Schwantz, Schiano, Chud and Munchak will not be head coaches in the NFL again anytime soon. There is your Sherman group.

Kubiak and Frazier might have been done in by team's pretending to have front level QB talent when it didn't (Vikes) and when it had ceased being close (Texans). But did their coaching frighten you in a game? McCarthy has 2010's playoffs to point to plus that game versus the Vikings where he constructed a run game against the Williams Wall out of cardboard and duct tape. He regularly took apart the Vikes (minus Adrian Peterson) and might have begun the detonation of Kubiak's career.

Shanny might have had it once, but it hasn't been apparent since he tried to stuff Plummer into an Elway box.

I think only the Wiz is at McCathy's level as he was done in by organization blundering with Warner and his backups.

I would be happy to hire Schiano's D coordinator. They could be fearsome.

[Smeefers]

that assuming that m3 is in the upper tier of head coaches. i'm not convinced that m3 is that much better then the round of head coaches that just got canned. and IMO, m3 is almost the exact same tier of coach that sherman was

the fact that you think only a coach like cower would be an improvement over m3 leads me to believe you are drinking the cool aide by the gallons

and no ground swell to get rid of capers and slocum? do you live with your head in the sand? pre and post game call in shows are dominated by callers demanding we get rid of both of them. all packer forums are filled with threads dedicated to getting rid of those two. during the games the announcers talk about how fans want them gone

thinking that there is a very limited amount of guys that could replace the clowns we have, means that you rate our coaches way higher then you should be.

i suppose rodgers is the best QB of all time?
jordy is the best WR in the NFL?
lacy is the best RB?
tramon is the best CB?
EDS is the best center?
raji is the best d-lineman?
hawk is the best MLB?
clay is the best defensive player in the nfl?

Its always fun trying to make what someone else said extreme when it wasn't. You're not that good at it. I in no way said we have the bestest anything. Look before you leap.

I didn't say there weren't guys who couldn't coach at the same level as our current coaching staff, i said that there's not a lot that could do it better. Im not putting him in a HOF coach catagory, I'm saying he's under it, but I still think he's good. You just compared MM with Kubiak, Munchik, fraizer, schwartz and schiano with a straight face. That sir, is a bold statement. The only coach recently let go who's on the same level as MM is shanahan.

Who gives two shits what some hack calling into a radio show or what some blogger says? You know what I hear from reporters and analysts who get paid to cover the sport? Mostly positive things. There's a hush every once in a while about Dom fighting for his job, but thats it.

[Smeefers]

What's that saying? If you listen to the fans you'll eventually be one of them? I don't think Capers system sucks but we just don't have the horses to run it - especially in the middle and the back end/secondary. The D wasn't all that terrible earlier this season. What is the reason it collapsed? Injuries? Bad offensive play after AR got hurt? Both?

If I could answer that, I'd be a very rich man.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Anybody want Wade Phillips?

[Smeefers]

Anybody want Wade Phillips?

Kinda. Not sure. It wouldn't hurt my feelings, bit I don't want change just for the sake of change.

[Bretsky]

Anybody want Wade Phillips?


I'm not sure; I'd be fine with it. I want Ray Horton.

If you make me choose at this point I do think a change would be beneficial so I'd take Phillips over Capers. But he would not be a guy I'd jump at hiring without interviwing a list of candidates.

I have a feelling Dom is staying

[Bossman641]

I'd love to have Horton but I think he is way too coveted and will end up as a head coach somewhere.

[smuggler]

Mike Munchak is available and he would definitely be an upgrade over Campen, imo.

[Bretsky]

Mike Munchak is available and he would definitely be an upgrade over Campen, imo.


Not arguing, but if we grabbed every upgrade we'd have constant turnover and Campen did a good job this year IMO

[Joemailman]

Not arguing, but if we grabbed every upgrade we'd have constant turnover and Campen did a good job this year IMO

I agree about Campen. A 4th round pick rookie at LT, and an UDFA at RT and he made it work pretty well. They could be better next year with Bulaga, Sherrod and Tretter to add to the mix.

[woodbuck27]

the sherman debate was almost exactly the same as the mccarthy debate

you mention firing sherman and people would flip out bringing up winning %, and blaming the players and injuries and other coaches and everything under the sun

those were the ones known as the kool aide drinkers. they are some of the same people that say "why would you fire capers? we're winning with him"

there were a lot of people that thought it was just a horrible idea to fire sherman

Let's get right down to brass tacks 'real' here and now:

Going into todays playoff game and the Mike McCarthy Era !:

The Green Bay Packers are six wins and four loss's (6-4) or a .600 winning percentage (60%) and 1 World Championship.

Vince Lombardi did much better (9-1 in the playoffs) and 5 World Championships.

Mike Holmgren did better with back to back Super Bowl appearances, one World Championship and a 9-5 record (.643) in the playoffs.

It's a good thing for MM not to lose today and see his playoff record rise to 7-4 ( .636). Then Mike McCarthy would be closer to the same status level as Mike Holmgren. He'll never be in the same conversation and greatness as Vince 'the Saint' Lombardi. No HC will ever gain HIS STATUS. Such greatness in Pro Sports has seldom been approached.

What's going on!?

** Mike McCarthy has by the estimation of some Packerrats (some Packer fans). The incomparable Ted Thompson 'the Draft Genius' :whist: as his GM.

** Mike McCarthy has arguably the finest player in the NFL as his teams QB, in Aaron Rodgers.

** Mike McCarthy has such an array of weapons on offense for Aaron Rodgers to target.

** Mike McCarthy has often been touted as offensive expert to genius.

If we actually lost today and shouldn't at home ...so won't. :grin:

Yet 'just hypothetically', if the San Fran 49ers actually did turn up and defeat the Green Bay Packers!? Note: I even hate to imagine this happening...and this is a simple exercise.

Yet... in that negative result, wouldn't this then be a pertinent and fair question?

What 'then' is going on?

GO PACKERS...GO PACK GO !

[bobblehead]

Anybody want Wade Phillips?

He is a good DC...but a god awful HC. I would take him if we unleash Capers.

[bobblehead]

I agree about Campen. A 4th round pick rookie at LT, and an UDFA at RT and he made it work pretty well. They could be better next year with Bulaga, Sherrod and Tretter to add to the mix.

I am beginning to believe that Campen's biggest problem is that they kept trying to force him to run zone blocking without actually letting his guys practice it. Makes his job real tough.

[Pugger]

Given the fact that young and (I believe) talented players like House, McMillian and Burnett don't seem to have progressed, I sometimes wonder if the position coaches are as much of the problem as Capers.

I've been wondering about our secondary coaches for a while and was always surprised when some folks touted one of them as a future DC.

[mraynrand]

I'm not sure; I'd be fine with it. I want Ray Horton.


Ya know, Horton's defense In Cleveland sucked pretty bad when it mattered most - holding fourth quarter leads.

[red]

I am beginning to believe that Campen's biggest problem is that they kept trying to force him to run zone blocking without actually letting his guys practice it. Makes his job real tough.

i've been thinking about how our o-line plays and i've been trying to figure out how to ask the question i want to ask the right way

when i watch a lot of teams, and from everything i've ever need taught or told, the battle on the lines is an all out war. the lines engage and is a grapple fight.

when i see our line play, the first thing all the guys do is step backwards, sometimes more then one step. they don't engage. its almost like they are trying to play defense in basketball, they're just trying to keep their assignments in front of them for as long as possible before they engage

i don't really want to use the term dancing bears, but to me its a lot like that

by the time they do stop retreating and engage, they are in the QB's lap, there is no pocket, and the qb needs to run for his life. i notice this most with the tackles, they seem to almost use a pincer type motion where they both almost meet up behind the QB (if that makes any sense), this allows the DE's to get into wide open space and in a nice 1 v 1 battle against bigger slower O-tackles

i see multiple problems with this. one being, instead of staying tight, your o-line spreads way the hell out allowing all kinds of holes for guys to come blitzing through. if one guy gets beat, there is no one right there to help out. and if you don't engage the defenders, you allow them to get their hands up and knock down throws, like we see against us quite a bit

now i'm no O-line guru. and i wanted to post this as more of a question to the guys who do know about o-lines.

and i seeing it right, are we doing this? should we be doing this?

it just seems like our goal is to just delay the attack, not neutralize it

[red]

one thing i do know about our d is that we're ranked way down around dead last right now. and we started the year very strong

we pretty much had to be the worse defense in the whole nfl over the last half of the season for us to fall as far as we have

and no, injuries is not the only reason why we are so bad on that side of the ball

[bobblehead]

i've been thinking about how our o-line plays and i've been trying to figure out how to ask the question i want to ask the right way

when i watch a lot of teams, and from everything i've ever need taught or told, the battle on the lines is an all out war. the lines engage and is a grapple fight.

when i see our line play, the first thing all the guys do is step backwards, sometimes more then one step. they don't engage. its almost like they are trying to play defense in basketball, they're just trying to keep their assignments in front of them for as long as possible before they engage

i don't really want to use the term dancing bears, but to me its a lot like that

by the time they do stop retreating and engage, they are in the QB's lap, there is no pocket, and the qb needs to run for his life. i notice this most with the tackles, they seem to almost use a pincer type motion where they both almost meet up behind the QB (if that makes any sense), this allows the DE's to get into wide open space and in a nice 1 v 1 battle against bigger slower O-tackles

i see multiple problems with this. one being, instead of staying tight, your o-line spreads way the hell out allowing all kinds of holes for guys to come blitzing through. if one guy gets beat, there is no one right there to help out. and if you don't engage the defenders, you allow them to get their hands up and knock down throws, like we see against us quite a bit

now i'm no O-line guru. and i wanted to post this as more of a question to the guys who do know about o-lines.

and i seeing it right, are we doing this? should we be doing this?

it just seems like our goal is to just delay the attack, not neutralize it

Answering this is a really long post, and I'm watching the game atm, BUT, when pass blocking you do take a step back for a couple reasons. One is you have the room, 2 is that you can't go forward (illegal man downfield), 3 is that you need to look over what is coming to know your assignment, 4 is that you need room to react to any move the DL puts on you, and to adjust your assignment if a blitzer comes inside (depending on the call, OL usually block inside, but at the pro level I imagine its not that black and white).

In run blocking you fire out hard and engage your assignment which you should know by the time the ball is snapped. You lock onto that guy and drive. Should virtually never step back.

[woodbuck27]

He is a good DC...but a god awful HC. I would take him if we unleash Capers.

Yea he looks like a decent fit in Green Bay.

Problem is this:

Dom Capers would have to retire.

[Iron Mike]

I don't care. All I saw all weekend was a defense that could get pressure and OL that could keep pressure off. Could you imagine if we had that??? We'd be sooooo awesome.

[red]

I don't care. All I saw all weekend was a defense that could get pressure and OL that could keep pressure off. Could you imagine if we had that??? We'd be sooooo awesome.

exactly

you just have to watch other teams play to see just how bad our defense, special teams and o-line really are

[Bossman641]

Answering this is a really long post, and I'm watching the game atm, BUT, when pass blocking you do take a step back for a couple reasons. One is you have the room, 2 is that you can't go forward (illegal man downfield), 3 is that you need to look over what is coming to know your assignment, 4 is that you need room to react to any move the DL puts on you, and to adjust your assignment if a blitzer comes inside (depending on the call, OL usually block inside, but at the pro level I imagine its not that black and white).

In run blocking you fire out hard and engage your assignment which you should know by the time the ball is snapped. You lock onto that guy and drive. Should virtually never step back.

This, the first step in pass blocking is always backwards...unless you are doing a cut block.

I am tired of seeing our OL walked back though. Bakh is too weak and needs a year of strength training. Barclay might just not be good enough.

[Iron Mike]

This, the first step in pass blocking is always backwards...unless you are doing a cut block.

I am tired of seeing our OL walked back though. Bakh is too weak and needs a year of strength training. Barclay might just not be good enough.

It is what is it, though......how many years do we need to whine before we get coaching in the trenches???