Wholesale Changes

[call_me_ishmael]

First of all... let's get it out of the way. The Niners are a uniquely talented team. They have been bad for so long and have the most #1 picks on their roster of any team in the league. They needed a culture change that Baalke and Harbaugh brought. They will soon run into money issues so it is what it is.

The Packers need to make some significant changes to continue being competitive and being in a position to compete for the super bowl.

1. Figure out why we are always near the top of the league in injuries. Somebody, probably PB, posted a chart a few weeks back detailing injuries over the past several seasons. The Packers were at or near the top. This has to stop. Whether it is a matter of Ted picking athletes with injury history, or what, I don't know, but something needs to change here.

2. The dreaded 2-4 defense needs to go away. I'm damn sick of being in this micro-nickel all of the time. NFL teams are keeping three WRs out most plays now. It's time to adjust and be able to control the line of scrimmage. I would like to see the Packers use 3 down linemen every play. Period.

3. Stronger up the middle. The Packers inside linebackers suck. The Packers safeties suck. The rest of the D is serviceable. They need sweeping, radical changes here.

4. Significant Improvement in scouting. It's no surprise to see a draft-and-develop organization begin to fall off when their past 2-3 drafts have yielded little to no depth or talent. It isn't a shock to me that these drafts have taken a step down in quality after the departure of Reggie McKenzie, John Dorsey and John Schneider. It is unreasonable to expect a back-up to play as well as a pro-bowler, so it isn't too surprising that Alonzo Highsmith and Elliot Wolf aren't superstars yet. These guys need to be better, and the Packers need to draft better, or they need to make some changes in how they build their team. They will not be successful if they do not acquire more quality players.

That's all for right now.

[denverYooper]

The 49ers played 2-4 most of the night.

[beveaux1]

Sometimes, the answer is pretty simple. We had too many injuries to go to the Super Bowl. A lot of the players starting on defense today were way below 100%. Rodgers is below 100%. Not time to make wholesale changes. I think we have a great deal of talent on our roster. Unfortunately, those guys were not out there today. Hopefully, the great majority of them will be out there in September.

[digitaldean]

First of all... let's get it out of the way. The Niners are a uniquely talented team. They have been bad for so long and have the most #1 picks on their roster of any team in the league. They needed a culture change that Baalke and Harbaugh brought. They will soon run into money issues so it is what it is.

The Packers need to make some significant changes to continue being competitive and being in a position to compete for the super bowl.

1. Figure out why we are always near the top of the league in injuries. Somebody, probably PB, posted a chart a few weeks back detailing injuries over the past several seasons. The Packers were at or near the top. This has to stop. Whether it is a matter of Ted picking athletes with injury history, or what, I don't know, but something needs to change here.

2. The dreaded 2-4 defense needs to go away. I'm damn sick of being in this micro-nickel all of the time. NFL teams are keeping three WRs out most plays now. It's time to adjust and be able to control the line of scrimmage. I would like to see the Packers use 3 down linemen every play. Period.

3. Stronger up the middle. The Packers inside linebackers suck. The Packers safeties suck. The rest of the D is serviceable. They need sweeping, radical changes here.

4. Significant Improvement in scouting. It's no surprise to see a draft-and-develop organization begin to fall off when their past 2-3 drafts have yielded little to no depth or talent. It isn't a shock to me that these drafts have taken a step down in quality after the departure of Reggie McKenzie, John Dorsey and John Schneider. It is unreasonable to expect a back-up to play as well as a pro-bowler, so it isn't too surprising that Alonzo Highsmith and Elliot Wolf aren't superstars yet. These guys need to be better, and the Packers need to draft better, or they need to make some changes in how they build their team. They will not be successful if they do not acquire more quality players.

That's all for right now.

Agree on 1 and 4. 3 I disagree vehemently. Did we EVER get a consistent pass rush from our front D line? NO. We had to either blitz or Matthews had to make a play (when he was healthy).

We need help at D-Line, Safety, ILB and O-Line. In Free Agency, Jones, Raji and Finley can go bye-bye. Finley, IMO is Nick Collins, part 2, plus he wants too much money. We need to find a way to get some better safety play. Burnett was pathetic this year. Brad Jones at ILB isn't the answer. Though AJ Hawk had one of his better seasons, he isn't a steller ILB.

[denverYooper]

It's simple: the Packers need to stink for 5-6 years, I mean really stink. Like to where they can acquire top 5 picks for several years. Pick a bunch of defensive players. Get rid of Rodgers because he's keeping the defense from "learning" enough. Hell, trade him to the Texans for JJ Watt and a pick. Hire a defensive minded coach, Then fire him after several years of getting trampled. Hire an offensive minded coach to work with their draft pick QB and play ball control football with their defense that has learned and jelled over several seasons. Simple, right?

[call_me_ishmael]

It's simple: the Packers need to stink for 5-6 years, I mean really stink. Like to where they can acquire top 5 picks for several years. Pick a bunch of defensive players. Get rid of Rodgers because he's keeping the defense from "learning" enough. Hell, trade him to the Texans for JJ Watt and a pick. Hire a defensive minded coach, Then fire him after several years of getting trampled. Hire an offensive minded coach to work with their draft pick QB and play ball control football with their defense that has learned and jelled over several seasons. Simple, right?

Bullshit. Teams have to suck ass for a few years to get a superstar QB and a superstar defender. We have both already. Why blow it up and suck so you can get a guy as good as Rodgers or Matthews when you already have them?

The issue isn't the top-of-the-line talent. It's the average talent of the team as a whole. They went from a super deep team in 2010 to one with practically no depth at all. Too many rookie FAs.

[oldbutnotdeadyet]

I would be happy with some changes, especially on D.

[bobblehead]

The 49ers played 2-4 most of the night.

And we played a healthy amount of 3-4

[bobblehead]

Bullshit. Teams have to suck ass for a few years to get a superstar QB and a superstar defender. We have both already. Why blow it up and suck so you can get a guy as good as Rodgers or Matthews when you already have them?

The issue isn't the top-of-the-line talent. It's the average talent of the team as a whole. They went from a super deep team in 2010 to one with practically no depth at all. Too many rookie FAs.

By early in this game we were out: Bulaga, Hayward, Jolly, Mathews, Shields, Neal...2 impact players and 3 very good players and 1 guy who has been coming on. Who are the 49ers missing? Yet they had to kick a last second FG to win.

[call_me_ishmael]

By early in this game we were out: Bulaga, Hayward, Jolly, Mathews, Shields, Neal...2 impact players and 3 very good players and 1 guy who has been coming on. Who are the 49ers missing? Yet they had to kick a last second FG to win.

You are overstating the value of those players. Matthews is a stud but the rest are very unproven over time. Hayward is the most overrated guy on the Packers imo. I hope I'm wrong.

Jolly and Shields are solid. The rest are meh.

[esoxx]

Need to open up player procurement to all sources this offseason. They need to plug some holes and quit relying on only draft picks and street free agents to build the roster. AR's in his prime, use all resources in a weak NFC North Division to make it happen.

[Bossman641]

You are overstating the value of those players. Matthews is a stud but the rest are very unproven over time. Hayward is the most overrated guy on the Packers imo. I hope I'm wrong.

Jolly and Shields are solid. The rest are meh.

Hayward was rated as a top 3 cb last year by numerous metrics. His loss cannot be overstated

[call_me_ishmael]

Hayward was rated as a top 3 cb last year by numerous metrics. His loss cannot be overstated

As a #3 corner, though. The rest of the D was so bad it is hard to tell. I don't see an elite player there. I hope I'm wrong. Do we really think he's that much better than Micah Hyde?

[Bossman641]

Hyde is better blitzer and run defender but nowhere near Hayward coverage skills

[denverYooper]

Hyde is better blitzer and run defender but nowhere near Hayward coverage skills

His passer rating against was somewhere around 40 as a rookie. Just ridiculous. For comparison, Shields was around 70 this year.

[call_me_ishmael]

This team will not be a super bowl team again until they can suffocate the run and get after the QB. They are just so awful in the front 7 despite a lot of high picks.

[HarveyWallbangers]

The only major piece I'd like to see us add on offense is a #1 TE. On defense I'd like to see us get a difference maker at DL, LB, and S. It might be tough, but that should be the goal. We're losing a lot at DL, so it will need to be rebuilt. Safety is a huge need. I think Richardson has some potential, but not somebody to count on. Jennings should be gone. This is very doable. We need good health as much as anything. And I wouldn't mind if Capers retired.

[bobblehead]

You are overstating the value of those players. Matthews is a stud but the rest are very unproven over time. Hayward is the most overrated guy on the Packers imo. I hope I'm wrong.

Jolly and Shields are solid. The rest are meh.

My god, how were we even in this game til the end? We should have lost 55-0. We have no talent, they have tons, and we were playing with 5 backups on defense.

[woodbuck27]

First of all... let's get it out of the way. The Niners are a uniquely talented team. They have been bad for so long and have the most #1 picks on their roster of any team in the league. They needed a culture change that Baalke and Harbaugh brought. They will soon run into money issues so it is what it is.

The Packers need to make some significant changes to continue being competitive and being in a position to compete for the super bowl.

1. Figure out why we are always near the top of the league in injuries. Somebody, probably PB, posted a chart a few weeks back detailing injuries over the past several seasons. The Packers were at or near the top. This has to stop. Whether it is a matter of Ted picking athletes with injury history, or what, I don't know, but something needs to change here.

2. The dreaded 2-4 defense needs to go away. I'm damn sick of being in this micro-nickel all of the time. NFL teams are keeping three WRs out most plays now. It's time to adjust and be able to control the line of scrimmage. I would like to see the Packers use 3 down linemen every play. Period.

3. Stronger up the middle. The Packers inside linebackers suck. The Packers safeties suck. The rest of the D is serviceable. They need sweeping, radical changes here.

4. Significant Improvement in scouting. It's no surprise to see a draft-and-develop organization begin to fall off when their past 2-3 drafts have yielded little to no depth or talent. It isn't a shock to me that these drafts have taken a step down in quality after the departure of Reggie McKenzie, John Dorsey and John Schneider. It is unreasonable to expect a back-up to play as well as a pro-bowler, so it isn't too surprising that Alonzo Highsmith and Elliot Wolf aren't superstars yet. These guys need to be better, and the Packers need to draft better, or they need to make some changes in how they build their team. They will not be successful if they do not acquire more quality players.

That's all for right now.

Excellent and all are solid points for focus.

Great job.

GO PACK GO !

[woodbuck27]

Agree on 1 and 4. 3 I disagree vehemently. Did we EVER get a consistent pass rush from our front D line? NO. We had to either blitz or Matthews had to make a play (when he was healthy).

We need help at D-Line, Safety, ILB and O-Line. In Free Agency, Jones, Raji and Finley can go bye-bye. Finley, IMO is Nick Collins, part 2, plus he wants too much money. We need to find a way to get some better safety play. Burnett was pathetic this year. Brad Jones at ILB isn't the answer. Though AJ Hawk had one of his better seasons, he isn't a steller ILB.

** a) 3 I disagree vehemently.

** b) We need help at D-Line, Safety, ILB

Don't a) and b) support one another digitaldean?

GO PACK GO !

[woodbuck27]

Bullshit. Teams have to suck ass for a few years to get a superstar QB and a superstar defender. We have both already. Why blow it up and suck so you can get a guy as good as Rodgers or Matthews when you already have them?

The issue isn't the top-of-the-line talent. It's the average talent of the team as a whole. They went from a super deep team in 2010 to one with practically no depth at all. Too many rookie FAs.

Nailed it.

[woodbuck27]

My god, how were we even in this game til the end? We should have lost 55-0. We have no talent, they have tons, and we were playing with 5 backups on defense.

Yes the reason we lost is simple.

The team that went out there today and especially on offense wasn't hungry enough to get it done.

I need to study the game tomorrow or sometime when I get the stomach for that. I'm so washed out after that game right now. I need some new perspective and strength.

Right after that game there was one poster in the thread that I wanted to drift right down on he had me so pissed off. That's not cool.

Where did that creep land in from?

HELL !?

Read the thread and you'll see the poster I refer to.

GO PACK GO !

[run pMc]

** a) 3 I disagree vehemently.

** b) We need help at D-Line, Safety, ILB

Don't a) and b) support one another digitaldean?

GO PACK GO !

Original quote was:

3. Stronger up the middle. The Packers inside linebackers suck. The Packers safeties suck. The rest of the D is serviceable. They need sweeping, radical changes here.


I think DD was disagreeing with the notion that the rest of the D is serviceable.

Bottom line: the defense needs to play better. The Safeties were bad IMO, the run D regressed as injuries piled up and the pass rush was inconsistent at best. I'd like to see a playmaker at ILB and a solid S at minimum, but they will need help on the DL too. Jolly, Pickett and Raji could all be gone.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

The biggest issue of the off season should be why is the whole team always hurt? Is it just bad luck? We beat San fran yesterday if we were as healthy as they have been. After that we need to figure out which players to keep. Capers and MM aren't going anywhere no matter how much I or anyone else might want them to go. So I'm not going to waste my time even discussing something that is not going to happen. Our only hope to get back to the superbowl is to upgrade the personal, keep our core players, and stay healthy for a complete season.

Raji:
With all the talk about how Raji has regressed, and I agree he somewhat regressed, he would still be a big loss. The problem with keeping him is he wants to get paid around 10 million a year (not going to happen). Pickett looks to have slowed down and Jolly might never paly again so losing Raji would be big. Hoping that if we keep Raji in year two Datone Jones, Boyd, and Worthy develop (basically year two for Worthy). Next order of business imo should be to move Perry to DE. Mike Neal looks surprisingly natural standing up and just seems to be a much better fit then Perry at OLB. Perry should have his hand on the ground plain and simple. His bull rush from the middle of the line would make it a lot easier of Clay and Neal to get to the QB. This is a big change I would love to see this offseason.

Flynn:
I think we all saw this year that having a good back up QB is important. This is just a prefect fit for both sides and it allows you to slowly develop ST.

Neal:
Without a doubt we should bring him back. In year two at OLB I believe he can get 6-8 sacks. At the very least he would be good rotational guy with Clay and maybe someone they draft.

Finley:
Bring him back only if its a good deal for the team. The guy is getting paid way to much for his production, availability, and level of consistency. Not only that, but the guy always runs his mouth. But given his age and ability to stretch the field when healthy I would bring him back if he signs something around 3 years/15mil.

James Jones:
Solid player even though he dropped a bomb yesterday. Given his age and speed limitations I would offer him nothing more than the last time we signed him 3years/10mil

Kuhn:
Bring him back. Good player and a leader on the team.

Shields:
One of the best players on defense imo. Need to re-sign. If he continues to improve his tackling he would be a complete player.

Quarless:
Depends on how much he wants and what happens to Finley. If we keep Finely and he wants a decent pay raise they should let him walk. Decent player though.

Newhouse:
Gone

EDS:
If cheap then yes. Otherwise role with the young guys. The oline might be the most interesting group on the team next year. If Sherrod and Bulaga win starting jobs, then what happens to Barclay and Bahk? Do they move to guard? Does Lang move to center? Is Tretter our next center? A lot of unknowns. Sherrod's play is the biggest wild card on the oline next year.

Francois:
Good Sp. teamer so yeah bring him back.

Starks:
Great change of pace back with Lacey. Would love him back.

Wilson:
Gone

Lattimore:
Decent depth.

Jennings:
GOOONE

Wallace:
Gone

Bell:
Gone

[denverYooper]

The only major piece I'd like to see us add on offense is a #1 TE. On defense I'd like to see us get a difference maker at DL, LB, and S. It might be tough, but that should be the goal. We're losing a lot at DL, so it will need to be rebuilt. Safety is a huge need. I think Richardson has some potential, but not somebody to count on. Jennings should be gone. This is very doable. We need good health as much as anything. And I wouldn't mind if Capers retired.

This seems sensible. I do think Jones will be a nice player on the DL next year, though. That group is going to be an interesting situation in the offseason/TC/next season. Jones, Daniels, Worthy, and Boyd could be a pretty active DL group. They probably need to get Pick or Raji done for a year or two until Boyd fills out, but I think they might be ok there.

I'm heavily in the camp that they *need* a very good ILB, S, or both. At least one. Who can stay healthy.

As far as Capers goes, his contract is up this year, isn't it? Information on coaches' contracts is a lot tighter, but that seems to be the speculation.

[SkinBasket]

I love the "figure out why guys are getting injured" goal. Answer: They play football. I can see targeting a specific issue, like the hamstring one, and bringing in specialists to change our training regimen accordingly. But stopping injuries? Maybe drinking unicorn blood? If Ted really cared about this team, he would send off to Hogwarts for one.

Raji can go fuck hisself. He's brought very little that another marginally talented fat man can't bring for the past couple seasons. Neal, Starks and Shields should be priority. Finley looks like a perfect candidate for a one year deal to prove he won't die on the field. Q, Flynn, Jones (even after dropping 100 yards worth of passing yards yesterday - he's got a great smile), and Lattimore are worth negotiating with. The rest can stay or go.

[pbmax]

You are overstating the value of those players. Matthews is a stud but the rest are very unproven over time. Hayward is the most overrated guy on the Packers imo. I hope I'm wrong.

Jolly and Shields are solid. The rest are meh.

Shields is their best corner, he would have gotten Crabtree. Crab doesn't average 17 yards per catch on Shields without another INT.

But the wholesale change needed is pass rush. Yes an ILB or Safety are called for. But without a pass rush, its not going to matter. Without drafting in the top 15 or signing a free agent, the Packers are not going to have a Justin Smith on the field soon. But they need to discover an Aldon Smith somewhere, keep Daniels and keep Matthews healthy.

Without a pass rush the Packer nearly took away four balls from Kapernick. Think what a pass rush could add to that.

[red]

I love the "figure out why guys are getting injured" goal. Answer: They play football. I can see targeting a specific issue, like the hamstring one, and bringing in specialists to change our training regimen accordingly. But stopping injuries? Maybe drinking unicorn blood? If Ted really cared about this team, he would send off to Hogwarts for one.

Raji can go fuck hisself. He's brought very little that another marginally talented fat man can't bring for the past couple seasons. Neal, Starks and Shields should be priority. Finley looks like a perfect candidate for a one year deal to prove he won't die on the field. Q, Flynn, Jones (even after dropping 100 yards worth of passing yards yesterday - he's got a great smile), and Lattimore are worth negotiating with. The rest can stay or go.

there has to be something going on. it can't just be dumb luck that we're the most injury plagued team every single season

[Rutnstrut]

there has to be something going on. it can't just be dumb luck that we're the most injury plagued team every single season

Yup, something is wrong there, it can't be that they are juicing, Clay get's hurt when the wind blows.

[mraynrand]

there has to be something going on. it can't just be dumb luck that we're the most injury plagued team every single season

UNBALANCED!!

[denverYooper]

Tyler Dunne ‏@TyDunne 8m
Back from #Packers locker room. A lot of uncertainty. FA's to-be James Jones and Evan Dietrich-Smith both unsure. Will test the market.

[mraynrand]

Tyler Dunne ‏@TyDunne 8m
Back from #Packers locker room. A lot of uncertainty. FA's to-be James Jones and Evan Dietrich-Smith both unsure. Will test the market.

Losing Jones or EDS does not bother me in the least.

[hoosier]

Yup, something is wrong there, it can't be that they are juicing, Clay get's hurt when the wind blows.

You think there is an association between PEDs and broken thumb bones?

[mraynrand]

Osteogenesis Imperfecta! (Brittle bone disease) It's probably some new variety of adult onset disease resulting from some paper mill runoff toxin in the local Green Bay waters.

[Carolina_Packer]

As a #3 corner, though. The rest of the D was so bad it is hard to tell. I don't see an elite player there. I hope I'm wrong. Do we really think he's that much better than Micah Hyde?

I think the discussion inside this point is that we as Packer fans know the MO of the club is to play young players, and see if they are worth a second contract and to become part of the core of the team and earn that spot instead of giving money to a free agent as a "quick fix". When said young player gets hurt and can't contribute, not only does that hurt his development (and anyone's real ability to rate him), but it also means you have to play a lesser player and hope that he can play well enough, although in truth he may be too inexperienced or more of a special teams player. Zoom out a bit. These are first and second year players, but the club asks a lot of them because of the way they choose to build the team. We didn't just rely on one inexperienced guy this year, we relied on a lot of them. You can't just say hurry up and get better. They get better when they get better, and they deserve as least some time to get seasoned and then I think we can fairly rate them.

[SkinBasket]

there has to be something going on. it can't just be dumb luck that we're the most injury plagued team every single season

What I was getting at is you need to separate the injuries resulting from contact (with other players or the field) from the conditioning/training type stuff like hamstrings and quads. That'll give you a much better idea whether we need changes to our training/medical staff. No matter the numbers, it's silly to blame the those folks for guys getting torn apart on the field. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and sometimes bad luck is just bad luck, no matter how tempting it is to find some tinfoil hat theory to blame it on.

[ThunderDan]

You think there is an association between PEDs and broken thumb bones?

My thoughts exactly. He tackles a QB reaching for a sack and his thumb just gets turned the wrong way or catches on a piece of Stafford's equipment and the thumb breaks. Bad luck.

[SMBASS]

The thing that concerns me most is that between Favre and Rodgers were going to have the incredible luxury or luck of having 25-30, (whatever it ends up being) straight years of elite, (by NFL standards) QB play and we might "only" end up with 2 Lombardi's to show for it. Everyone talks about it being a, "QB League" and how you can't win without great QB play, (Trent Dilfer, Rob Johnson exceptions aside) and I'm fearful that we're going to piss all those years away and not have much to show for it. Sure it's great to be competitive and be in the playoffs almost every year and I understand how hard that is to do but at some point you have to take chances and put some proven supporting players on the field along with that elite QB. We made the playoffs this year and I was happy about it and all but I had absolutely no expectations of us winning the Super Bowl. I didn't even think we really belonged in the playoffs except for the fact that our division sucked so bad.

These are just my personal feelings about it, but I don't believe in moral victories and getting into the playoffs just to go one and done year after year doesn't mean shit to me. Championships are all that I care about. If a team has to be put together to have a legitimate opportunity to win a trophy or two and then not be as competitive for a couple of years while you re-load and let younger players develop due to salary cap limitations, etc. I'm all for it. I don't even think that means you have to necessarily completely suck during those down years either.

Draft and develop is great and I agree that it should still be the basis for building your team but unless you hit on a high percentage of those draft choices and you get 4-5 decent future starters, (Starting by 3rd year.) and a couple of future studs out of each draft you just end up wasting a lot of time waiting for that, "development" to happen while your elite QB's career window continues to close. Ted has drafted a lot of D players over the past few years that just haven't panned out so far and in truth, his 2010, 2011, and 2012 drafts haven't proven to be anything to get too excited about overall. (Yes, there have been a few decent players taken over that time.) I realize that this is not a guarantee of success and that anything can happen if you're in the playoffs but I think this is just more along the lines of how I would personally approach it.

In my opinion I think it's time for Ted to go out and sign a couple of "proven" vet D players with a few good years left similar to what he did when he signed Pickett and Woodson because we've just had too many whiffs in the past 3 years or so on D players that aren't getting it done. For example, I thought Burnett had a lot of potential when he was drafted and that he would start to break out by now but I was really disappointed with his play this year. Especially since we just signed him to a fairly big contract during the past offseason. How in the hell long is it going to take us to draft someone who can compliment Matthews and actually generate a legitimate pass rush on a consistent basis? It's been several years and we still haven't found anyone close to filling that need.

Rodgers obviously has several good years left in his prime but those years can slip by quickly. As mentioned, I just think it would really suck to end up having so many years of elite QB play and only 2 trophy's to show for it. Who knows what will happen after Rodger's career. Maybe we get lucky again or maybe we end up being like the Bears or the 70's and 80's Packers and we have to suffer through years of dismal QB play trying to find the right guy.

(I also realize that regardless of being vets or rookies you need to keep your team relatively healthy and a little luck never hurts in trying to win trophies but that's an entirely different discussion.)

[bobblehead]

Shields is their best corner, he would have gotten Crabtree. Crab doesn't average 17 yards per catch on Shields without another INT.

But the wholesale change needed is pass rush. Yes an ILB or Safety are called for. But without a pass rush, its not going to matter. Without drafting in the top 15 or signing a free agent, the Packers are not going to have a Justin Smith on the field soon. But they need to discover an Aldon Smith somewhere, keep Daniels and keep Matthews healthy.

Without a pass rush the Packer nearly took away four balls from Kapernick. Think what a pass rush could add to that.

Can you ever get a pass rush if the only 2 linemen are 2 gapping?

[bobblehead]

You think there is an association between PEDs and broken thumb bones?

Clearly when you get so strong that you are benching 700 pounds it puts a lot of strain on the thumb :)

[bobblehead]

What I was getting at is you need to separate the injuries resulting from contact (with other players or the field) from the conditioning/training type stuff like hamstrings and quads. That'll give you a much better idea whether we need changes to our training/medical staff. No matter the numbers, it's silly to blame the those folks for guys getting torn apart on the field. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and sometimes bad luck is just bad luck, no matter how tempting it is to find some tinfoil hat theory to blame it on.

But as I have said, when your coach has a high priority on limiting your ability to PRACTICE contact, you don't execute it the same way. Example: If I took someone who hadn't done a deadlift in a year and asked him to go compete, he likely gets hurt. If however he practices his deadlift with say 80% max weight for a few weeks he likely doesn't get hurt. Same goes for hitting another 250+ pound man full speed. Best practice it at least at 80% speed a couple times a week.

[Carolina_Packer]

Can you ever get a pass rush if the only 2 linemen are 2 gapping?

This is a very interesting article about the 2-4-5 and 1-5-5 nickel alignments:

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2009/9/21/1047264/the-2-4-5-and-1-5-5-revealed

It's Steeler-centric and a little dated on some of the personnel mentioned, but gets the point across, especially since they are a 3-4.

When I read this article and I think about the Steeler defensive personnel referenced and then I think about Green Bay's defensive personnel, I think, no contest. If you had the defensive personnel mentioned, you'd probably run the 2-4-5 or 1-5-5 as well. They have enough good line-backers who know how to pass rush and get pressure on the QB who don't often miss when trying to get to the QB, or let him escape the pocket. Those kinds of line-backers in that alignment make all the difference.

Green Bay does not have nearly the collective group, and it's obviously not easy to assemble such a great group of line-backers, but that's how you make that alignment work. Wouldn't you agree?

So what type of nickel package alignment would be more "practical" given the Packers current defensive personnel?

[th87]

But as I have said, when your coach has a high priority on limiting your ability to PRACTICE contact, you don't execute it the same way. Example: If I took someone who hadn't done a deadlift in a year and asked him to go compete, he likely gets hurt. If however he practices his deadlift with say 80% max weight for a few weeks he likely doesn't get hurt. Same goes for hitting another 250+ pound man full speed. Best practice it at least at 80% speed a couple times a week.

Agreed here.

In addition, broken bones/ligament damage can also correlate to training methods. While contact is inevitable, maybe said contact doesn't need to result in breaks/tears.

[bobblehead]

Agreed here.

In addition, broken bones/ligament damage can also correlate to training methods. While contact is inevitable, maybe said contact doesn't need to result in breaks/tears.

From personal experience and what i have witnessed, the guys who practice 100mph (an piss off some teammates) don't get hurt as often. As a coach told me very young, if you aren't looking to lay a hit on someone, you will take one, and its more likely to get you hurt if you take it. I think MM has a priority on walk throughs. Making sure guys know their positioning/leverage.

Problem is this: If the other guy isn't resisting your walk through, you passively approach it in games as well. You don't do it instinctively. End result...you get hurt and/or beat.

Now I can't criticize MM's body of work, but in this area (and I'm going on all the early stuff he said and did) he lacks. I know he started practicing outdoors after it obviously cost them games in the past, I'm just hoping someone talks him into having guys go a little harder in practice. I'm not talking full boar, get hurt on wednesday stuff, simply asking that we hit and fight for position enough that they are ready for it in games.

[wist43]

This is a very interesting article about the 2-4-5 and 1-5-5 nickel alignments:

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2009/9/21/1047264/the-2-4-5-and-1-5-5-revealed

It's Steeler-centric and a little dated on some of the personnel mentioned, but gets the point across, especially since they are a 3-4.

When I read this article and I think about the Steeler defensive personnel referenced and then I think about Green Bay's defensive personnel, I think, no contest. If you had the defensive personnel mentioned, you'd probably run the 2-4-5 or 1-5-5 as well. They have enough good line-backers who know how to pass rush and get pressure on the QB who don't often miss when trying to get to the QB, or let him escape the pocket. Those kinds of line-backers in that alignment make all the difference.

Green Bay does not have nearly the collective group, and it's obviously not easy to assemble such a great group of line-backers, but that's how you make that alignment work. Wouldn't you agree?

So what type of nickel package alignment would be more "practical" given the Packers current defensive personnel?

I laid out this argument in some detail in one of the other threads - the 49er thread I think - and the answer is the 3-3.

Our front seven is more heavily invested in DL talent, and we are especially weak at LB - moreso with Matthews out. So instead of having Pickett and both Brad Jones and AJ Hawk on the field, you have 1 of those guys and D. Jones and Daniels. The biggest problem we have with the 2-4 is that we get run on in run/pass situations - couple that with the problems we have in the secondary, the lack of pressure that we generate from the 2-4 makes us vulnerable to the pass in that alignment as well.

You address both of those problems (even if not actually solving them, given the personnel shortcomings), by adding a more talented DL for a less talented LB. It gives you more size in your front to address the run, and it gives you more pass rush and push if the offense ends up passing.

[Bretsky]

Need to open up player procurement to all sources this offseason. They need to plug some holes and quit relying on only draft picks and street free agents to build the roster. AR's in his prime, use all resources in a weak NFC North Division to make it happen.


dude....are ya........saying......TT......should fill holes....with ........FREE AGENTS ??????????

[Bretsky]

The only major piece I'd like to see us add on offense is a #1 TE. On defense I'd like to see us get a difference maker at DL, LB, and S. It might be tough, but that should be the goal. We're losing a lot at DL, so it will need to be rebuilt. Safety is a huge need. I think Richardson has some potential, but not somebody to count on. Jennings should be gone. This is very doable. We need good health as much as anything. And I wouldn't mind if Capers retired.

this

[pbmax]

Can you ever get a pass rush if the only 2 linemen are 2 gapping?

In pass rush nickel, they aren't two gapping.

In jumbo nickel the pass rush is expected to come from elsewhere but one of the jumbos (Raji recently) should be able to collapse a pocket.

In base, yes someone needs to collapse the pocket so an OLB or blitzed can Jet up the field and attack the QB like he is in a phone booth.

[pbmax]

This is a very interesting article about the 2-4-5 and 1-5-5 nickel alignments:

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2009/9/21/1047264/the-2-4-5-and-1-5-5-revealed

It's Steeler-centric and a little dated on some of the personnel mentioned, but gets the point across, especially since they are a 3-4.

When I read this article and I think about the Steeler defensive personnel referenced and then I think about Green Bay's defensive personnel, I think, no contest. If you had the defensive personnel mentioned, you'd probably run the 2-4-5 or 1-5-5 as well. They have enough good line-backers who know how to pass rush and get pressure on the QB who don't often miss when trying to get to the QB, or let him escape the pocket. Those kinds of line-backers in that alignment make all the difference.

Green Bay does not have nearly the collective group, and it's obviously not easy to assemble such a great group of line-backers, but that's how you make that alignment work. Wouldn't you agree?

So what type of nickel package alignment would be more "practical" given the Packers current defensive personnel?

Those Steelers did not face many QB as mobile as Kap, Rodgers or Wilson. And there is probably one answer for them and another answer for Manning or Brady.

[woodbuck27]

Need to open up player procurement to all sources this offseason. They need to plug some holes and quit relying on only draft picks and street free agents to build the roster. AR's in his prime, use all resources in a weak NFC North Division to make it happen.

Yes.

[bobblehead]

In pass rush nickel, they aren't two gapping.

In jumbo nickel the pass rush is expected to come from elsewhere but one of the jumbos (Raji recently) should be able to collapse a pocket.

In base, yes someone needs to collapse the pocket so an OLB or blitzed can Jet up the field and attack the QB like he is in a phone booth.

I know, I was being sarcastic mostly. But I do think when you only have 2 DL on the field the way we do, it turns 3rd and 5 into a potential running down. Especially when the 2 aren't as good against the run and aren't playing for it.

[pbmax]

I know, I was being sarcastic mostly. But I do think when you only have 2 DL on the field the way we do, it turns 3rd and 5 into a potential running down. Especially when the 2 aren't as good against the run and aren't playing for it.

Its a personnel matchup because the offense has removed a TE or FB for a WR. The defense has to be able to still stop a single back run with six or seven (depending on TE alignment) in the box. Every other 3-4 runs that nickel if they expect pass. I agree the Packers invite run more often because of lack of success, but switching to 3-3 just invites more passing which the Packers have been equally vulnerable to.

If there is one thing underlying this its the lack of effective run defense. Harvey mentioned in his 2014 thread about rebuilding the D line. I think that is the way to go. but they need to do it run D first and then find a pass rush to boot. It would also be great for 1st and 10 not to be a great down to pass on versus base.