LEROY BUTLER....TOM SILVERSTEIN VIDEO ON FREE AGENCY PERIOD and WHO TO KEEP..etc

[Bretsky]

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/240006731.html

[Bretsky]

I'd like to see more of these; what I really take out of this is Silverstein's tone is that of a writer who doesnt' care much for TT....listen to him....when he talks of trading down and still getting Lacy........as luck........

[Bretsky]

And both suggest doing a sign and trade with Raji.............Patler.........is this possible ?

Wondering what the cost of franchising him would be; that is the only way to make this work IMO

[Bretsky]

Both suggest Burnett truly needs a mentor.......Butler notes how Eugene Robsinson served as one for him when he needed it

They think Burnett has the talent but he needs a savvy vet who can position the defense to just make plays...........AND

they say we need to start drafting guys for Dom Capers system instead of drafting guys and then trying to get them to fit

[Bretsky]

Didn't know this.........but........sounds like NICK COLLINS would like to return to playng in the NFL........

[pittstang5]

Didn't know this.........but........sounds like NICK COLLINS would like to return to playng in the NFL........

As much as I would love to have Collins back, that ship has sailed. He was released and free to sign anywhere. No team took the chance then, I doubt anyone would sign him now.

[Bretsky]

As much as I would love to have Collins back, that ship has sailed. He was released and free to sign anywhere. No team took the chance then, I doubt anyone would sign him now.


They also noted how Eric my man Reed has made such a huge impact with the 49ers.
Silverstein then stressed how SF really wanted him at that position so they traded up

Butler notes how TT has traded up twice since he's been here....Silverstein shows some sarcasm in his response.

It's not a criteria to judge GM's based on how the media likes them..........but they sure do take the opposite route when showing their tone between Ron Wolf and TT

[Joemailman]

And both suggest doing a sign and trade with Raji.............Patler.........is this possible ?

Wondering what the cost of franchising him would be; that is the only way to make this work IMO

Is Raji considered to be a DT or DE? The Packers have him listed as DT on their roster, but doesn't he usually line up at DE? The reason I ask is that there is a difference of more than 3 million on the franchise tag for the 2 positions. http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24249078/agents-take-ten-players-who-could-get-slapped-with-a-franchise-tag

[red]

And both suggest doing a sign and trade with Raji.............Patler.........is this possible ?

Wondering what the cost of franchising him would be; that is the only way to make this work IMO

yes its possible, i've been screaming for the packers to do this for years

most recently with jennings last year

[red]

boy, silverstein really has the perfect voice and face for newspaper

[Joemailman]

I'd like to see more of these; what I really take out of this is Silverstein's tone is that of a writer who doesnt' care much for TT....listen to him....when he talks of trading down and still getting Lacy........as luck........

I thought that was kind of pathetic by Silverstein. Nothing wrong with criticizing TT for bad moves, but give him credit for good moves. TT played that situation perfectly.

[digitaldean]

I thought that was kind of pathetic by Silverstein. Nothing wrong with criticizing TT for bad moves, but give him credit for good moves. TT played that situation perfectly.

A little surprised on their thoughts re: Pickett and Neal. I thought Neal actually played OK.

Agree about Silverstein. He's got a little McGinn in his system. Whack TT and MM for botching the backup QB spot and the safety mess, but give TT kudos for rolling the dice and still getting Lacy.

Silverstein, McGinn and Vandermause for GB Press Gazette are all over rated IMO.

[Joemailman]

A little surprised on their thoughts re: Pickett and Neal. I thought Neal actually played OK.

Agree about Silverstein. He's got a little McGinn in his system. Whack TT and MM for botching the backup QB spot and the safety mess, but give TT kudos for rolling the dice and still getting Lacy.

Silverstein, McGinn and Vandermause for GB Press Gazette are all over rated IMO.

I hope they sign Neal. For a guy who didn't know until May that he would be switching to OLB, I thought he played really well. Because of the injuries to Matthews and Perry, he probably ended up playing a lot more than they intended. He's also talking about losing another 5-10 pounds to improve his quickness.

[mraynrand]

They also noted how Eric my man Reed has made such a huge impact with the 49ers.
Silverstein then stressed how SF really wanted him at that position so they traded up

Butler notes how TT has traded up twice since he's been here....Silverstein shows some sarcasm in his response.

It's not a criteria to judge GM's based on how the media likes them..........but they sure do take the opposite route when showing their tone between Ron Wolf and TT

That was a great move. They absolutely needed Reid. But that kind of move can backfire if you pick the wrong guy, because of what you have to give away to move up. For example, Shermy blew a #2 to move up just a fews spots and get Walker and just a few years later, the guy is gone (let's not rehash those great move ups to get a punter)

But in today's NFL, you have to fill holes - SF did it with the draft, they did it with trades, and they did it with FA. Reggie McKenzie was great at Pro Personnel (Think Pickett, Woodson)- perhaps they still haven't recovered from losing him.

[mraynrand]

A little surprised on their thoughts re: Pickett and Neal. I thought Neal actually played OK.

Agree about Silverstein. He's got a little McGinn in his system. Whack TT and MM for botching the backup QB spot and the safety mess, but give TT kudos for rolling the dice and still getting Lacy.

Silverstein, McGinn and Vandermause for GB Press Gazette are all over rated IMO.

Neal was a nice surprise. Pickett was better before getting hurt. He's just going to wear down over a season. He may be done; at the very least if they bring him back next year (same for Jolly if his neck is OK) they have to limit snaps. And that limits roster spots. Go sign a fatty; draft a fatty.

[Rodgers12]

yes its possible, i've been screaming for the packers to do this for years

most recently with jennings last year

Thompson did it in 2008 with Corey Williams. Got a 2nd rounder, for which the Polar Bear managed to waste on, gasps, Brian Brohm.

Facts in hindsight, should've drafted Jamaal Charles (no relation to Darren).

[Rodgers12]

For example, Shermy blew a #2 to move up just a fews spots and get Walker and just a few years later, the guy is gone

I wouldn't call it a backfire. By his 3rd year, J-Walk progressed into a Pro Bowler for the Packers. Injuries coulda set him back a bit, but he wasn't a bust (for Denver and Oakland, perhaps, but not the Packers).

Great move by Sherman in trading up. Injuries, combined with the fact that he wasn't a Thompson pick, made J-Walk expendable. Teddy got back that 2nd rounder that Sherman sacrificed in the first place, so nothing backfired.

[woodbuck27]

And both suggest doing a sign and trade with Raji.............Patler.........is this possible ?

Wondering what the cost of franchising him would be; that is the only way to make this work IMO

No. BJ Raji's a known risk at best and clearly would be a waste of CAP as he's NOT played this season. He's generally failed since the 2010 season.

Besides, " he's in Big Time Pout Mode " with a thin veil of "Gee Look at me patting my teammates on the ass after a played down". BJ Raji looks worse than bad on the field now. He's at best burning rubber.

Cut his useless ass unless Dom Capers returns our defense where it belongs or "a Base 4-3 'D' .. ".

I'm so disappointed with of all the nonsence and failure we all should see with TT drafting players that are a better fit in a 4-3 defense. Ted Thompson's bending over to MM and Dom Capers and going with (moreso as Wist43 informs us )... a predominant 2-4-5 defense.

This is too easy to see and grasp in terms of the direction our Defense deserves to go. It's time to toss the three ply ass wipe and return to two ply. Get back to a 4-3 defense...PRONTO like for the 2014 season. Ted Thompson no longer has to be concerned over $$$ shelling out $$$ BIG TIME for STAR DT's as we have none.

That idea/plan is like a candle that unexpectedly extinguished.

A candle that TT shouldn't be stubborn to re-light. Let go of BJ Raji.

Don't go to "Magic Thinking".

[bobblehead]

I'd like to see more of these; what I really take out of this is Silverstein's tone is that of a writer who doesnt' care much for TT....listen to him....when he talks of trading down and still getting Lacy........as luck........

I presumed that TT had Lacy and Ball rated equal and decided to take a free pick later while still getting one.

[bobblehead]

Thompson did it in 2008 with Corey Williams. Got a 2nd rounder, for which the Polar Bear managed to waste on, gasps, Brian Brohm.

Facts in hindsight, should've drafted Jamaal Charles (no relation to Darren).

Facts in hindsight...every team in the NFL should have drafted Jamaal Charles.

[red]

leroy brought up another point i've mentioned quite a few times about resigning raji

he said something along the lines of 3-4 linemen aren't suppose to be high paid superstars, they're just suppose to be guys that take up blockers and let the LB's run free

thats exactly what i've always though our linemen should be, thats what i get confused when we draft smaller guys like datone,neal, and maybe worthy with higher picks. they're all smaller for a 3-4 DE and you've wasted high picks on what is in reality, cannon fodder

[pbmax]

Alright, first attempt was far too whiny.

Looking at other team's successes and Packer needs would make the Packer approach look bad in any season you have not won a Super Bowl.

Reid versus veteran safety is an interesting discussion, but mutually exclusive.

An Eric Reid could be drafted by Thompson at some point, he might even trade up. There is no mentoring with this approach.

But a FA safety is going to cost money. How much can you spend and who do you cashier in order to sign them?

[pbmax]

leroy brought up another point i've mentioned quite a few times about resigning raji

he said something along the lines of 3-4 linemen aren't suppose to be high paid superstars, they're just suppose to be guys that take up blockers and let the LB's run free

thats exactly what i've always though our linemen should be, thats what i get confused when we draft smaller guys like datone,neal, and maybe worthy with higher picks. they're all smaller for a 3-4 DE and you've wasted high picks on what is in reality, cannon fodder

Raji and Pickett are ideal ONLY for a NT, but somehow Packer fans have become convinced the rest of the lineman are too small for the 3-4.

Jones is 6' 5" and 285, Wilson is 6' 3" and 308 and Boyd is 6' 3" and 30-something. They are ideally sized for 3-4 DEs.

Why Capers doesn't use them in base is a big question.

[red]

Raji and Pickett are ideal ONLY for a NT, but somehow Packer fans have become convinced the rest of the lineman are too small for the 3-4.

Jones is 6' 5" and 285, Wilson is 6' 3" and 308 and Boyd is 6' 3" and 30-something. They are ideally sized for 3-4 DEs.

Why Capers doesn't use them in base is a big question.

oh i'm not saying wilson and boyd aren't perfect fits, i think they are.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Why Capers doesn't use them in base is a big question.

Question was answered earlier: Rookies don't do well in Capers system. Why Wilson doesn't suit up for more games is the question?

[pbmax]

Question was answered earlier: Rookies don't do well in Capers system. Why Wilson doesn't suit up for more games is the question?

Wilson aside, both played significant snaps. Its possible Jones played himself out of snaps by the end of the season. But each played quite a bit.

Rookies not fitting in sort of goes by the wayside after you get to the final roster, though it might explain errors in run fits or communication during the season.

The item on Belichick going to a 4-3 to reduce the amount of teaching necessary to switch between nickel 4-3 fronts and base 3-4 might come into play here. Boyd and Jones were nickel only with a few exceptions.

But I think the DE bodies for 3-4 are on the team. Thompson might need a NT but I would hope the DE position is covered.

[Bossman641]

I think TT has to make a play to keep Pickett. I hate to overvalue the whole veteran leadership thing, but the young DL need somebody to pick up tips/tricks from. I'd take Raji back but certainly not at 8M a year. Jolly and Wilson are probably gone. I'd like to see Pickett resigned and a third-fourth year player added in FA.

I really don't know what to make of Worthy. I'm giving him a pass this year but he didn't show much as a rookie. One other thing, people like to point to Worthy and Daniels as the whole round hole-square peg and TT not knowing what he's doing. I think those 2 were drafted pretty much exclusively for the nickel defense. We had Raji-Wilson-Pickett for the base run D but needed better pass rushers. Now that we are light on base D DL, TT moved to replace them with Jones and Boyd.

[red]

I think TT has to make a play to keep Pickett. I hate to overvalue the whole veteran leadership thing, but the young DL need somebody to pick up tips/tricks from. I'd take Raji back but certainly not at 8M a year. Jolly and Wilson are probably gone. I'd like to see Pickett resigned and a third-fourth year player added in FA.

I really don't know what to make of Worthy. I'm giving him a pass this year but he didn't show much as a rookie. One other thing, people like to point to Worthy and Daniels as the whole round hole-square peg and TT not knowing what he's doing. I think those 2 were drafted pretty much exclusively for the nickel defense. We had Raji-Wilson-Pickett for the base run D but needed better pass rushers. Now that we are light on base D DL, TT moved to replace them with Jones and Boyd.

agreed on picket, give him a small but fair deal, and rotate him more to keep him fresh. we can't afford to keep throwing out what little leadership we have

the think nwirh worthy and neal and jones, should you be spending high draft picks on situational players?

[Bossman641]

agreed on picket, give him a small but fair deal, and rotate him more to keep him fresh. we can't afford to keep throwing out what little leadership we have

the think nwirh worthy and neal and jones, should you be spending high draft picks on situational players?

Worthy isn't necessarily small (6'2" 305) but his game coming out was more of an aggressive penetrating type as opposed to your normal tie up blocks 3-4 end. I think the plan was for him and Daniels to spend their first 1-2 years as the rush guys in nickel and then see where they develop from there. Jones and Boyd have the ideal size/frame for 3-4 ends. Just have to hope they develop.

[mraynrand]

Worthy isn't necessarily small (6'2" 305) but his game coming out was more of an aggressive penetrating type as opposed to your normal tie up blocks 3-4 end. I think the plan was for him and Daniels to spend their first 1-2 years as the rush guys in nickel and then see where they develop from there. Jones and Boyd have the ideal size/frame for 3-4 ends. Just have to hope they develop.

Worthy still has a chance to shine with Daniels on passing downs. Just haven't seen enough yet to know. Packers will need a fatty or two (I say one FA, one draft pick) to take over for Pickett and Jolly inside, assuming both those guys are done or severely diminished.

[run pMc]

Have not been overly impressed with Worthy, maybe with health the light goes on for him next year.
Boyd looked bad to start but has improved. He has a shot to make a jump.
Datone has flashed good and bad, and I think he'll be better next year.

Pickett is a good plugger when healthy and needs to be on a snap count. You know what you're getting with him: no pass rush, ok run D, leadership and gap responsibility
Raji is talented but miscast and should not be resigned IMO. His contract will be too much for his production and his role. I'd take the 2015 compensatory pick and keep building.
Wilson is probably JAG but plays ok run D (was better last year) and his pass rush has regressed. No idea if he will get more than minimal interest from other teams in FA, but I'd bring him back on something close to vet minimum.
Daniels is a keeper for pass rush, but he's small for base, and will struggle against big OL. If TT drafted him as the Plan B to Worthy (or to pair him with Worthy) he's shown to be the better pick thus far.
Jolly wore out, but I'm not surprised. He was out of football for a few years and not in football shape. There were a couple of games where he went way over his snap count and I think fatigure contributed to injuries and a dropoff in production. I've heard various things about his injury, if it's serious they won't bring him back.

So 2 out of Worthy, Jones and Boyd need to improve. Raji walks (hopefully not to Minny), Pickett and Wilson re-up, and TT drafts somebody in middle rounds for Trgovac to develop.

[bobblehead]

Raji and Pickett are ideal ONLY for a NT, but somehow Packer fans have become convinced the rest of the lineman are too small for the 3-4.

Jones is 6' 5" and 285, Wilson is 6' 3" and 308 and Boyd is 6' 3" and 30-something. They are ideally sized for 3-4 DEs.

Why Capers doesn't use them in base is a big question.

Having a run stuffing CJ Wilson on the bench while be bled rushing yards is my #1 reason for wanting Dom fired (and MM is partly to blame).

[pbmax]

Having a run stuffing CJ Wilson on the bench while be bled rushing yards is my #1 reason for wanting Dom fired (and MM is partly to blame).

I get it but CJ Wilson's track record is not all rose petals. He was part of a horrendous run D on the Packer right with Walden. Now Walden added his own unique blend of suck to the problem and wasn't much help to Wilson, but his track record is modest compared to Jolly.

CJ could not defeat single blocking and never held a TE or Guard off a LB. He's stout, but ineffective. Come to think of it, he looked a lot like Raji this year.

[run pMc]

I thought Butler's comments about drafting players who fit and who have played in a 3-4 -- not project/converted players -- in both part I & II was interesting. He thinks Capers is good and runs a good scheme, but doesn't have the pieces he needs.

[pbmax]

I thought Butler's comments about drafting players who fit and who have played in a 3-4 -- not project/converted players -- in both part I & II was interesting. He thinks Capers is good and runs a good scheme, but doesn't have the pieces he needs.

It used to be colleges running a 3-4 were few and far between. All 3-4 guys for the Steelers were projections. Its not as bad now, but you are limiting yourself to a subset of players that way. You also would not have Clay Matthews or Raji.

[Maxie the Taxi]

I thought Butler's comments about drafting players who fit and who have played in a 3-4 -- not project/converted players -- in both part I & II was interesting. He thinks Capers is good and runs a good scheme, but doesn't have the pieces he needs.

I've got a great idea for an invention that will make me a million bucks...just don't have the pieces I need to put it into production.

This kind of thinking drives me nuts. If he doesn't have the players suited for it, Capers' scheme is worthless. Doesn't it make more sense to design a scheme to fit the players we have, or modify it? The alternative is waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting for another Charles Woodson to show up in Green Bay.

[pbmax]

I've got a great idea for an invention that will make me a million bucks...just don't have the pieces I need to put it into production.

This kind of thinking drives me nuts. If he doesn't have the players suited for it, Capers' scheme is worthless. Doesn't it make more sense to design a scheme to fit the players we have, or modify it? The alternative is waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting for another Charles Woodson to show up in Green Bay.

I am sure that is what Thompson is saying. But many other people are wondering why Thompson allows the hiring of a person who cannot execute his scheme without specific types of veteran players. That style of coach contradicts what he and McCarthy do with their team.

It might be incompatible.

However, Capers is not LeBeau. Capers has seen Belichick's hybrid 3-4 and run 4-3 for Coughlin in Jacksonville. So he is not completely unarmed here. The question is which of these factors dominates the explanation for the decline in the last three years. Here is a partial list:

1. Injuries
2. Talent at crucial spots (ILB, Safety, D Line)
3. Pass rush
4. Rotating corners and secondary confusion
5. Youth
6. Assistant Coaches
7. Scheme complexity
8. Skill fit in D Line, one OLB and one ILB

[Maxie the Taxi]

The question is which of these factors dominates the explanation for the decline in the last three years. Here is a partial list:

1. Injuries
2. Talent at crucial spots (ILB, Safety, D Line)
3. Pass rush
4. Rotating corners and secondary confusion
5. Youth
6. Assistant Coaches
7. Scheme complexity
8. Skill fit in D Line, one OLB and one ILB

All these play a factor. Injuries = Major obstacle, especially when they hit your major pass rusher and your best secondary guys. Now you have lesser skilled players trying to learn new positions in a very complex scheme. I'm tempted to say let's just go back to playground defense -- everybody take a man and stick with him. :lol:

[woodbuck27]

All these play a factor. Injuries = Major obstacle, especially when they hit your major pass rusher and your best secondary guys. Now you have lesser skilled players trying to learn new positions in a very complex scheme. I'm tempted to say let's just go back to playground defense -- everybody take a man and stick with him. :lol:

Then you'd have to have in a 3-4 base ...'8 really athletic players' (@ LB and in the secondary).

They would have the mental capacity to concentrate on their individual assignment. They all would have to be competent to defend the run and pass. They all would have to be in awesome condition and strong in combine drills. Two of the LBers would have to be able to drop back smoothly and support the secondary defending the pass.

Now all TT has to do after Sam Shields and CM III; maybe? Tramon Williams for another season (2 max) is:

Find five more legit players to fit that scheme. Hope like the blazes that the backups don't get thrown into the fire, due to starter injuries and, before they learn to get up to speed to fit the scheme.

That takes us to where... from today?

Realistically all that will take another two and maybe three seasons. :wink:

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Didn't know this.........but........sounds like NICK COLLINS would like to return to playng in the NFL........

Man would I love to see him out there one more time. Would make the offseason for me if they gave him another shot.

[smuggler]

I would never feel comfortable watching the defense, knowing that Collins could literally die on any play.