Who Should TT Pick In 1st Round? - Pre-Senior Bowl Edition

[Joemailman]

I'm figuring there are 15 players who in all likelihood will be gone before the Packers pick. They are:

Jake Matthews, Jadeveon Clowney, Terry Bridgewater, Greg Robinson, Sammy Watkins, Blake Bortles, Anthony Barr, Darqueze Dennard, Johnny Manziel, Khalil Mack, C. J. Moseley, Mike Evans, Cyrus Kouandijo, Eric Ebron, and Taylor Lewan. Of course, if you think I'm wrong, go with the guy you want.

Poll to follow.

[Joemailman]

I'm going with Nix, partly because I feel Raji, and possibly Pickett will be gone.

[red]

i'm going with calvin pryor right now

i absolutely do not want to waste any more first and second round picks on d-linemen for a system that doesn't require superstars or pass rushers

[oldbutnotdeadyet]

Prolly shouldn't vote for Vic Beasley as he is returning to school next year....

[red]

Prolly shouldn't vote for Vic Beasley as he is returning to school next year....

go ahead and pick him, chances of the packers picking him are probably just as good as the team picking any of the other guys on the list

this is TT we're talking about

famous for picking justin harrell, and trading out of the first round when a safety was available when we needed one, only to draft a WR we didn't need at the time (brandon flowers, jordy nelson)

[pittstang5]

A solid, contributing starter for the defense. Someone who doesn't get hurt all the time, can start and make the defense better from day one. That's who TT should pick in the 1st round.

[call_me_ishmael]

I don't typically like non-SEC DL players but the RaShese Hageman guy seems pretty prototypical in size. How is his motor?

[Joemailman]

I don't typically like non-SEC DL players but the RaShese Hageman guy seems pretty prototypical in size. How is his motor?

Maybe slight concerns about his motor.


Weaknesses: At times struggles to locate the football quickly, can appear a bit stiff changing directions and shows just average speed and determination in pursuit, despite being subbed often.


Hagemen is a classic boom-or-bust candidate. He has dominant stretches of play and long dry spells as well. His pad level needs to be lowered against both the run and pass.

[Fritz]

go ahead and pick him, chances of the packers picking him are probably just as good as the team picking any of the other guys on the list

this is TT we're talking about

famous for picking justin harrell, and trading out of the first round when a safety was available when we needed one, only to draft a WR we didn't need at the time (brandon flowers, jordy nelson)

Red, you've got some classic rips (like "Stubby's coaching shrub"), but it's not a good criticism you make here when the guy TT drafted instead of the one you wanted turns out to be the Packers' best wide receiver...and one of the best in the league.

[Bretsky]

Red was not wrong either; both of us were screaming for a Pro Bowl CB at the same time.
TT did well with Jordy Nelson but Flowers is an outstanding CB as well.

[Fritz]

You can hardly fault the pick, however. Now that Brian Brohm pick, now that one...

[mraynrand]

A solid, contributing starter for the defense. Someone who doesn't get hurt all the time, can start and make the defense better from day one. That's who TT should pick in the 1st round.

I didn't know AJ Hawk had a brother.

[run pMc]

i'm going with calvin pryor right now

i absolutely do not want to waste any more first and second round picks on d-linemen for a system that doesn't require superstars or pass rushers

So you'd take Pryor over Ha-Ha? I haven't seen either so I have no opinion. Nix would be ok, there will be a need on the DL, but I agree they can probably find someone in later rounds.

I have no issue with the Jordy pick. He's a borderline all-star. I had hoped the Brohm pick would pan out but he was clear pretty quickly that he was a bust. Tough way to waste a R2 pick. I think that was also the Patrick Lee draft as well -- TT went 1/3 in R2 that year. Ouch.

[Fritz]

Seems like the kind of player they need at the nose can be developed . And thus had in a middle round?

[pbmax]

Get Your Ha-Ha's Out was a great live album.

[red]

So you'd take Pryor over Ha-Ha? I haven't seen either so I have no opinion. Nix would be ok, there will be a need on the DL, but I agree they can probably find someone in later rounds.
.

you know, i'm not sure. the more i read and watch on pryor the more i like

i think i would be fine with either, but a lot of mocks have ha ha going before our pick. of course by draft time pryor could be looking like a top 10 pick

who knows

ranking and our opinions are gonna change about 30 more times by the time the draft comes around

then if your like rand, in 8 or 9 years from now, you can jump on the hall of famer that the packers passed on and talk about how you really wanted the team to pick him way back when

just like i think the packers should have drafter barry sanders

[red]

Red, you've got some classic rips (like "Stubby's coaching shrub"), but it's not a good criticism you make here when the guy TT drafted instead of the one you wanted turns out to be the Packers' best wide receiver...and one of the best in the league.

i was just trying to say that TT isn't above throwing us a complete curve ball when draft time gets here

glab you picked up on the coaching shrub. i was pretty proud of that and i thought it went unnoticed

[Brandon494]

Why are offensive players even on this poll?

[Bretsky]

GREAT.....RED and I are the only two for Prior
sorry Red

We're screwed; we might as well become fans of somebody else

[red]

GREAT.....RED and I are the only two for Prior
sorry Red

We're screwed; we might as well become fans of somebody else

that pretty much means we're going offense then

wr, rb, or qb?

[bobblehead]

TT finally trades up....and takes Jonny "football" Manziel.. He is not going to be criticized for not having an adequate backup again!!

[woodbuck27]

GREAT.....RED and I are the only two for Prior
sorry Red

We're screwed; we might as well become fans of somebody else

Yea it figures...my early favourite is this guy:

" ESPN's Mel Kiper projects the Green Bay Packers to select junior safety Calvin Pryor from Louisville. " Fr. LINK Immediately below.

http://www.acmepackingcompany.com/2014-nfl-draft-packers/2014/1/15/5312506/2014-nfl-draft-mock-packers-ha-ha-clinton-dix-calvin-pryor-louis-nix

http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20140115/SPORTS02/301150106/Louisville-s-Calvin-Pryor-climbing-NFL-draft-boards-ESPN-projects-Teddy-Bridgewater-eighth

If FS (could play SS) Calvin Pryor is there for TT? He's a solid fit for the Packers needs.

If TT has a shot at him and trades down and we just miss him. mmmm pffeeuuhh!

The trouble with this guy. He may out class everyone else in our secondary. :grin:

http://www.rantsports.com/nfl/files/2014/01/Calvin-Pryor-ANDREW-WEBER.jpg

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTCjTLhmfVFm25cnmQuVpKN19vwVIC3r Lu9s_t5_MvNvQbcNUkdtA

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRiqQhOITJoZTi48pNbd53rYXtXTFKzM V1UjMjpPz7wMTpfl5Gc

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcThb40V011dp4MGnYoKc8yLIDR-xS6kTNYCthH1WXoaIwnMj0EgqQ

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSZ729f2szWOxHhOOLAIKuTdhbbaNj2S NC5fsKYvqXsXqO_cAzT

[woodbuck27]

TT finally trades up....and takes Jonny "football" Manziel.. He is not going to be criticized for not having an adequate backup again!!

Hahaha... that's funny.

TT would, if that happened, simply head back to his suite and get ready to fly back to Green Bay because his draft would be nearly over. He might pick up an OG and a WR a so so TE and a hack LBer with his remaining picks; but that brain fart would cost a lot.

I'm picturing that happening:

TT might just say to his second... " Ahh shit ! Did I really do that? It's just that Manziel reminds me so damn much of Fran Tarkenton. I'll be damned if Minny reincarnates that bite in the arse. Ohh well...I'm outta here so handle it and for Lands Sakes Jethro... pick a ST's Coaching Prospect that'll excite Mike "


What would that cost say to move one slot ahead of Minny?

bobblehead we have to somehow determine which Trade Value Chart will be "the official 2014 TVC For Packerrats.

[smuggler]

The reason I don't want Pryor in the first is because I want him in the second. :mrgreen:

[Joemailman]

The reason I don't want Pryor in the first is because I want him in the second. :mrgreen:

Me too. Like lacy last year.

[woodbuck27]

The reason I don't want Pryor in the first is because I want him in the second. :mrgreen:

:? Ohh Yea and I want C.J. Mosley, ILB, ALABAMA in Round 1. Unless Ted Thompson moves up he'll be gone.

Yet to follow through and "magical thinking ... downgraded". I want to see added to the head of the newest Draft Class the name of a young man that will cover a Special Need for us and his name is FS/SS Calvin Pryor.

To play along with you...if I see just one of those "Football Players" names up on Packers.Com as the Round 1 Ted Thompson and Team Draft Pick.

I'll be elated and I'm a happy Green Bay Packer fan.

The watch I see intriguing is in terms of the Packer UFA's:

I'm concerned about four DLman being of that status NT/DT Ryan Pickett (age 34);

DT Johnny Jolly (serious upper spinal column injury/conditioning);

BJ Raji (attitude/conditioning/competence as a 3 tech Vs NT/He's flat out wanting to leave Green Bay Fed Up <<< ALL OF THE ABOVE and ...

DE CJ Wilson (good run support so sign him ASAP.

TT may have to appear as if he's paddy screwing around and this DL situation. It's just this in terms of how TT looks at the trio of Pickett, Jolly and Raji. One thing has to happen first and one thing leads to another. It's looking rather like a good chess match now in Green Bay and with this focus on 20 free Agents all told.

In that case (maybe?) DT's Louis Nix III, Notre Dame or RaShede Hageman, Minnesota come into play as pemium prospects for an NFL DL.

Then look at CB Sam Shields. He looks very close to saying bye bye to Green Bay. If Ted Thompson decides that his Salary CAP interests exceed Sam Shield needs, then TT is maybe? looking for a solid CB in the draft:

CB Darqueze Dennard, Michigan State will be long gone at TT's NO. 21 slot.

Maybe it'll be BPA or either of CB's Justin Gilbert, Oklahoma State; Marcus Roberson, Florida maybe? Jason Verrett, TCU.

It'll be according to what we're informed of...BPA. If it's BPA Defense we won't be disappointed will we because you could throw a dart at a board blind folded and with all positions on defense available as a potential hit and simply go there.

TT might simply decide if it's looking bad to take two three seasons to re-build a sucking defense by blowing it up. Really what are "YOU" seeing that is encouraging for nextseason?

???

Cont'd in another post....

GO PACK GO !

[red]

The reason I don't want Pryor in the first is because I want him in the second. :mrgreen:

you never know

i new mock on yahoo has pryor going #13, and ha ha going #19

however they also have mosley dropping right into our laps at #21

the way pryor has shot up boards since he declared that he was coming out early makes me think there is no way he lasts to the second round anymore

[smuggler]

Yeah. When you consider that the NFL is really safety starved... he might go in the 30ish range, but no later.

[pbmax]

GREAT.....RED and I are the only two for Prior
sorry Red

We're screwed; we might as well become fans of somebody else

What is the outcome for the player when you two geniuses agree?

Is it better than your individual records or does the jinx double? :D

[woodbuck27]

Cont'd From Post # 26:

Can you count the players on one hand NOT named Sam Shields, BJ Raji, Ryan Pickett, Johnny Jolly, Mike Neal and CJ Wilson? Because every one of them could be gone.

Look at WR James Jones. Jordy Nelson and Randall Cobb are UFA's in 2015. CB Tramon Williams has that same status in 2015.

Look at TE Andrew Quarless?

TT has to try to make something really positive happen in a bad situation or. For example... maybe and seriously relegate himself to acquiring help in Free Agency (ahh !?! :smile:) and / or in this draft. This isn't like any recent Off Season for Ted Thompson and his Scouting/Draft Team and Mike McCarthy and Company.

The NFL Draft begins Thurs. 8 May - ends Sat. 10 May, 2014. What's that ...90 days.

In the next ten weeks+. We'll see many changes and Mock Drafts enter several revisions; draft boards shift " like the sands of time on some exotic isle " .

That dynamic resembles what's going on in various NFL Organizations.

Here at Packerrats we keep up with most of that as we expose most of it and afford the time in any challenge to digest and understand and learn from it all. Thus a part of the overall beauty of submerging ourselves into football, on a deeper level as many do here at our Green Bay Packer HOME.

An interesting situation is developing in Packer Nation.

We see a dynamic in terms of how one change impacts something else and " the Mike McCarthy Coaching Tree" setting down new seed:

** QB's Coach Ben McAdoo promotes himself and moves to the OC position with the New York GIANTS.

** OLB Coach Kevin Greene resigns his position in Mike McCarthy's latest coaching tree for personal reasons he's informed us has to do with enhancing his personal contact with his family. End of that !

After that "surprize", and just look at that. Yesterday's reaction of some shock for some members and that certainly included this member. Simmers down a mere day later to a " simple surprize ". Thus an example of the flexibility of a seasoning Green Bay Packer and NFL Football fan.

It's a lot like HC Mike McCarthy advised us... RE: the constantly changing "culture" of the TEAM and/or dynamic in the TEAMS Locker Room. Something else MM informed us of in regards to the emotionally charged impact roster players and inside Packer people feel.

Thus Packerrats (Packer fans all over) feel.

Feel with a sudden loss or unexpected change. I know how I felt when in the same off season. Brett Favre's and Jon Ryan's lives changed as they were both dismissed as Green Bay Packers. All that challenged this Packer fan. :-D

It's a funny thing. I wrote above using certain words to describe Coach Kevin Greene; and I'm still typing this with a heaviness in my chest. Ahh screw it, "life and shit happens".

It really gets down to business and fixing things. MM may elect to add to the load of his personal assistant, Winston "Jack Of ALL" Moss? I wonder what Moss's job description looks like in terms of that little "Assistant to patch"? The added responsibility of anything " labeled as a Linebacker ".

Winston Moss can handle that.

GO PACKERS....GO PACK GO !

[woodbuck27]

you never know

i new mock on yahoo has pryor going #13, and ha ha going #19

however they also have mosley dropping right into our laps at #21

the way pryor has shot up boards since he declared that he was coming out early makes me think there is no way he lasts to the second round anymore

Yes... I'm thinking he will be around TT's NO. 21 slot.

it might be one of... and I omit a pick on offense as TT has so much need on 'D' or >>> GO BPA DEFENSE:

ILB: C.J. Mosley, AlABAMA


DL and: DT and RaShede Hageman, MINNESOTA; Louis Nix III, NOTRE DAME or DE Scott Crichton, OREGON State.


CB and: Justin Gilbert, OKLAHOMA State or Marcus Roberson, FLORIDA


I see ILB as "a higher priority"... but maybe? OLB and Ryan Shazier, OHIO ST. or Vic Beasley, CLEMSON

GO PACK GO !

[mraynrand]

Why are offensive players even on this poll?

I find both the top rated safeties offensive. TT will pick neither.

[Pugger]

So you'd take Pryor over Ha-Ha? I haven't seen either so I have no opinion. Nix would be ok, there will be a need on the DL, but I agree they can probably find someone in later rounds.

I have no issue with the Jordy pick. He's a borderline all-star. I had hoped the Brohm pick would pan out but he was clear pretty quickly that he was a bust. Tough way to waste a R2 pick. I think that was also the Patrick Lee draft as well -- TT went 1/3 in R2 that year. Ouch.

I went with Pryor over Ha-Ha because I doubt he'll be there when our turn comes.

[Pugger]

Why are offensive players even on this poll?

Really. We need a TE but this is a deep TE class and we can get one in later rounds.

[Joemailman]

Nobody picked Hageman, but if the Packers are looking to get more athletic with their DE's, he would make a lot of sense. Over at http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/mock-draft, 3 out of 4 have the Packers taking Hageman. All 4 have Calvin Prior going with the next pick.

[smuggler]

Hageman was electronically clocked running the 10 yard split a tenth of a second faster than Clay Matthews did during his combine. He supposedly runs the 40 yard dash in 4.7 seconds (some MLBs are jealous) and he's 315 lbs

[mraynrand]

Hageman was electronically clocked running the 10 yard split a tenth of a second faster than Clay Matthews. He supposedly runs the 40 yard dash in 4.7 seconds (some MLBs are jealous) and he's 315 lbs


He's in that category of "You can't teach size" I think this guy is boom or bust; depends on his internal motor, because he's just a terror physically - Julius Peppers big, fast, and strong. But is he a slouch??

[smuggler]

I have heard differing opinions on his motor. Some people say he's an animal who never stops. Some people say he's an underachiever. It may be that he disappeared in games and people pegged him as a slouch. If that's the case, it could be because the Gophers didnt really have anybody else of note playing on their Dline and he got gangbanged in a game or two by superior competition.

[wist43]

You know me, I always want to build defense, defense, defense... but I've given up any hope that the Packers can build a credible defense as long as Capers is calling the shots.

He did a fairly effective job the first 2 years he was here, but that was with personnel he inherited. Now that he has had a say in personnel for 5 years now, our defense is a dysfunctional, unproductive mess.

Anyone they draft on defense will be a square peg for a round hole, and be misused and wasted by Capers anyway.

Might as well go offense, offense, offense, lol... simply try to outscore everyone 48-47 ;)

[3irty1]

If you look at where Eric Reid went last year I think its pretty optimistic to expect Pryor to fall out of the first round. In fact with the Lions canning Delmas I wonder if them and Dallas will ruin our shot at a first round safety.

[smuggler]

A lot depends on the combine. If he runs a sub 4.5 40 yard dash, he's going to get scooped by someone as BPA. But, even if he makes it to the second round, he would not make it to our pick.

[Brandon494]

I voted for the DT RaShese Hageman from Minnesota. I like Nix but he is coming off an ACL tear and I like Hageman versatility a lot more. If he was taken off the board I would go with FS Ha Ha Clinton-Dix from ALABAMA!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U039-PWcE18

[smuggler]

Unfortunately, Nix's knee injury was a meniscus tear. He opted for thr repair instead of the partial removal, fwiw.

[Fritz]

Unfortunately, Nix's knee injury was a meniscus tear. He opted for thr repair instead of the partial removal, fwiw.

I don't follow the pre-draft stuff too much - would this meniscus tear drop Nix enough for the Pack to nab him in the first?

[smuggler]

Yes. I doubt that he will be fully prepared for the combine. He was considered a 10-20 kind of pick before he was hurt. It may be possible for a team trading up in the second to snag him, but it's nothing more than conjecture really because the combine could change things quite a bit.

[Fritz]

Yeah, that combine. I wonder how much stock TT puts into that, really. Or if he watches so damn much film he already has his mind pretty well set, outside of interviewing guys or having the docs check them.

[Joemailman]

Yeah, that combine. I wonder how much stock TT puts into that, really. Or if he watches so damn much film he already has his mind pretty well set, outside of interviewing guys or having the docs check them.

I don't think TT picks guys based on the combine, but he might eliminate or downgrade guys. A FS who times slow is not what he's looking for.

[pbmax]

I don't think TT picks guys based on the combine, but he might eliminate or downgrade guys. A FS who times slow is not what he's looking for.

However a FS who times slow at the combine but runs well on tape AND at a team workout might be ideal in dropping the guy you want down to you.

[3irty1]

I think Ted uses the combine more than most. He especially seems to place a big emphasis on measurables for offensive lineman and most positions on defense, especially defensive lineman.

[Joemailman]

I don't follow the pre-draft stuff too much - would this meniscus tear drop Nix enough for the Pack to nab him in the first?

If Nix had had the kind of year in 2013 that he had in 2012, he would be a top-10 pick. But he showed up overweight in 2013 and wasn't as dominant even before the meniscus tear. Most people have Nix rated somewhere between 15-25. I think the combine will be huge for him. he could move up if some teams think they're going to get the 2012 Nix. Rob Rang at CBSSports has him 20th in his big board and their 4 mock drafts have him going 15 (Pittsburgh), 21 (Packers), 15 (Pittsburgh), and 12 (Giants).

[smuggler]

Mostly, team physicians will actually be able to poke around at his knee and the coaches and scouts will get a chance to see him in his undies.

Sure, they run some events and physical tests, but unless something truly outlandish results from one of those, the film will tell you the kind of player a guy is.

[mraynrand]

Mostly, team physicians will actually be able to poke around and see him in his undies.

Harlan?

[wist43]

Just started looking at the draft... randomly looking at some guys at positions of need, not necessarily 1st round rated guys.

Here are some guys that I've liked at a glance -

Shane Skov, LB, Stanford
Craig Loston, S, LSU
Calvin Pryor, S, Louisville (potential 1st round guy)
Aaron Donald, DE, Pitt (reminds me a little of Cullen Jenkins; would be instant starter at DE - really like this guy)

Those are the first few I've looked at... long way to go before the draft.

Donald is a legit 1st round guy... might be gone by 21. Like him the most of the guys I've looked at so far.

[pittstang5]

Just started looking at the draft... randomly looking at some guys at positions of need, not necessarily 1st round rated guys.

Here are some guys that I've liked at a glance -

Shane Skov, LB, Stanford
Craig Loston, S, LSU
Calvin Pryor, S, Louisville (potential 1st round guy)
Aaron Donald, DE, Pitt (reminds me a little of Cullen Jenkins; would be instant starter at DE - really like this guy)

Those are the first few I've looked at... long way to go before the draft.

Donald is a legit 1st round guy... might be gone by 21. Like him the most of the guys I've looked at so far.

I like Donald too, been watching him since he came to Pitt, but I don't like him in Capers Defense. I don't think Capers would use him correctly. He's more of a 4-3, rush the passer DT. He's been compared to Geno Atkins, which I think is a fair comparison. He's alot like Mike Daniels - a little shorter, explosive, gives 110% every play.

If I had more faith in Capers actually designing a front to utilize Daniels and Donald at the same time, I'd be all for getting Donald...but I don't see that happening.

I hope he doesn't go to Chicago.

[run pMc]

I hope he doesn't go to Chicago.
Yeah, I'm hoping he goes to an AFC team. I had nightmares of him ending up in SEA until the Senior Bowl. I could see a 4-3 team (DAL?) grabbing him between picks 15-25.

[Joemailman]

Yeah, I'm hoping he goes to an AFC team. I had nightmares of him ending up in SEA until the Senior Bowl. I could see a 4-3 team (DAL?) grabbing him between picks 15-25.


The 4 mock drafts at http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/mock-draft have the Cowboys taking either Jernigan or Donald. Pat Kirwan had this to say:


After watching Donald at the Senior Bowl and knowing what Rod Marinelli and Monte Kiffin want, this guy is the perfect fit.

One mock has Seattle taking him, but I don't see that happening. Donald made a lot of money at the Senior Bowl.

[wist43]

I like Donald too, been watching him since he came to Pitt, but I don't like him in Capers Defense. I don't think Capers would use him correctly. He's more of a 4-3, rush the passer DT. He's been compared to Geno Atkins, which I think is a fair comparison. He's alot like Mike Daniels - a little shorter, explosive, gives 110% every play.

If I had more faith in Capers actually designing a front to utilize Daniels and Donald at the same time, I'd be all for getting Donald...but I don't see that happening.

I hope he doesn't go to Chicago.

Not trusting Capers is an issue with every defensive player... to be sure, he's misused every front seven player he's had for the past 3 years.

Go back to the SB year though, and Capers ran a lot more base 3-4, and the way he used Jenkins made a huge difference in the effectiveness of our defensive front. Supposedly MM is going to have more input on the defensive side of the ball - I think that can only mean he is going to address what I have been complaining about these past few years. A blind man can see that Capers version of the 2-4 is junk (ayn can't, but a blind man can ;) ) - assuming MM forces Capers to get his head out of his ass, I could see a guy like Donald being a nice piece to the puzzle.

As I've been saying - it's next to impossible to evaluate anyone in the front seven due to Capers misuse. The 2 guys I would give a grade to would Brad Jones and AJ Hawk - both get an F and need to be replaced.

The rest of the front seven guys have looked bad in the roles they've been cast, but that is Capers fault. Maybe the players aren't that good?? Perry hasn't looked very good - but again, I think he's being completely misused.

When it comes to our defense - a step backward, leading to Capers firing, would actually be 10 steps forward. As long as Capers is there, we're going to have problems.

[mraynrand]

A blind man can see that Capers version of the 2-4 is junk (ayn can't, but a blind man can ;) ) - assuming MM forces Capers to get his head out of his ass, I could see a guy like Donald being a nice piece to the puzzle.

What I've argued is that, if Neal and Perry are 'misplaced' DEs playing OLB, then having a 2-4 with those 2 at OLB, Matthews and Hawk as ILB should work both in run downs (with Pickett and Jolly as DT) and in passing downs (with Daniels and Jones as DL). In the run scenario though you need a better SS and in the passing down you need a better FS and maybe Hayward instead of Hyde.

There are player combinations and down and distance scenarios where I agree with you that the 2-4 is a terrible alignment, but a considerable number of those may have been made necessary because of injuries and/or because the Packers insist on playing Matthews at ROLB.

[pbmax]

He started his obsession with nickel as the primary defense in the Super Bowl year. It was a response to the terrible pass defense at the end of the previous year (see Cardinals playoff game).

Speaking of Jenkins in Psycho, that is exactly what the beat writers thought of when McCarthy mentioned some alignments they went away from due to injuries.

McCarthy said he sets the goals for the defense. He has not said he will take a greater role. I think we are reading too much into what he has said. Its possible he is tired of it and will change his approach up, but his press conference isn't confirmation yet.

[wist43]

What I've argued is that, if Neal and Perry are 'misplaced' DEs playing OLB, then having a 2-4 with those 2 at OLB, Matthews and Hawk as ILB should work both in run downs (with Pickett and Jolly as DT) and in passing downs (with Daniels and Jones as DL). In the run scenario though you need a better SS and in the passing down you need a better FS and maybe Hayward instead of Hyde.

There are player combinations and down and distance scenarios where I agree with you that the 2-4 is a terrible alignment, but a considerable number of those may have been made necessary because of injuries and/or because the Packers insist on playing Matthews at ROLB.

I know the rationale... and I have shot them down using the evidence - or rather, Capers himself proved that his 'solutions' to whatever personnel problems we may, or may not have had, were no solutions at all.

I think what Capers proved is that it is hard to imagine that things could be any worse doing anything other than what he's been doing. Breakdowns in the secondary, massive gashes in the run defense, a complete lack of pressure, loose coverage everywhere, on and on...

In the past 3 years, Dom Capers has captained one of the worst defenses in the league. Perhaps an excuse could be made for '11, but TT at least attempted to bring in some talent the past 2 years, and Dom has done nothing but try to fit round pegs into square holes.

[mraynrand]

I know the rationale... and I have shot them down using the evidence - or rather, Capers himself proved that his 'solutions' to whatever personnel problems we may, or may not have had, were no solutions at all.


What evidence have you provided? Break it down for me the running success other teams have had against Neal, Pickett, Jolly, Perry Matthews and Hawk.

[wist43]

He started his obsession with nickel as the primary defense in the Super Bowl year. It was a response to the terrible pass defense at the end of the previous year (see Cardinals playoff game).

Speaking of Jenkins in Psycho, that is exactly what the beat writers thought of when McCarthy mentioned some alignments they went away from due to injuries.

McCarthy said he sets the goals for the defense. He has not said he will take a greater role. I think we are reading too much into what he has said. Its possible he is tired of it and will change his approach up, but his press conference isn't confirmation yet.

If MM doesn't get more involved with the defense, then Capers will simply keep doing what he's been doing - Capers wants to run the 2-4 as much as he possible can. I think he's proven that. I also think he's proven that the 2-4, with the peronnel we have, and the way he runs it, is complete shit.

If MM doesn't get more involved, we're just going to see more of the same next year.

[mraynrand]

He started his obsession with nickel as the primary defense in the Super Bowl year. It was a response to the terrible pass defense at the end of the previous year (see Cardinals playoff game).

right, but that was with the "W" role for Woodson. With the loss of Woodson, and Collins on the back end, it kinda fell apart. Thus, I think you need to revise that role for Matthews at "ILB"

[3irty1]

Not trusting Capers is an issue with every defensive player... to be sure, he's misused every front seven player he's had for the past 3 years.

Go back to the SB year though, and Capers ran a lot more base 3-4, and the way he used Jenkins made a huge difference in the effectiveness of our defensive front. Supposedly MM is going to have more input on the defensive side of the ball - I think that can only mean he is going to address what I have been complaining about these past few years. A blind man can see that Capers version of the 2-4 is junk (ayn can't, but a blind man can ;) ) - assuming MM forces Capers to get his head out of his ass, I could see a guy like Donald being a nice piece to the puzzle.

As I've been saying - it's next to impossible to evaluate anyone in the front seven due to Capers misuse. The 2 guys I would give a grade to would Brad Jones and AJ Hawk - both get an F and need to be replaced.

The rest of the front seven guys have looked bad in the roles they've been cast, but that is Capers fault. Maybe the players aren't that good?? Perry hasn't looked very good - but again, I think he's being completely misused.

When it comes to our defense - a step backward, leading to Capers firing, would actually be 10 steps forward. As long as Capers is there, we're going to have problems.

That bold part is not True. Capers first rolled out the 2-4 in 2010 and we ran it on 70-75% of snaps. During our playoff run there was some media attention on our giant 3-man line featuring Howard Green but that was a situational defense and not something we saw a lot. Your dislike of the 2-4 is well documented but that's not been a very credible argument because the formation is obviously not the problem. We had tremendous success running it all the time in 2010 and other teams have had tremendous success running it most of the time as well including the 49ers who you've got a well documented boner for. If you want to argue that Dom has been living in the past trying to recreate that success with ham-fisted attempts to put new players in the old highlighted roles vacated by super stars, then I'm right there with you. You've got to find a new way to win every single year. Innovate or die.

[mraynrand]

If you want to argue that Dom has been living in the past trying to recreate that success with ham-fisted attempts to put new players in the old highlighted roles vacated by super stars, then I'm right there with you. You've got to find a new way to win every single year. Innovate or die.

This is much closer to the truth. Packers opened up the season without Hayward (woodson) and Burnett (collins) in roles the defense needed to run the 2-4. But if recollection serves, the Packers ran a lot more 3-4 in that game. Anywho, the innovation part I agree with - but at some point you run out of guys to do it. APRH, I would love to see Neal, Perry, Matthews and Hawk on the field together a lot - unless they draft a sure-fire ILB starter. Either way, Dom has got to stop wasting Matthews at ROLB.

[wist43]

That bold part is not True. Capers first rolled out the 2-4 in 2010 and we ran it on 70-75% of snaps. During our playoff run there was some media attention on our giant 3-man line featuring Howard Green but that was a situational defense and not something we saw a lot. Your dislike of the 2-4 is well documented but that's not been a very credible argument because the formation is obviously not the problem. We had tremendous success running it all the time in 2010 and other teams have had tremendous success running it most of the time as well including the 49ers who you've got a well documented boner for. If you want to argue that Dom has been living in the past trying to recreate that success with ham-fisted attempts to put new players in the old highlighted roles vacated by super stars, then I'm right there with you. You've got to find a new way to win every single year. Innovate or die.

Good grief 3irty1, he hasn't been running the 2-4 70-75% of the time the last couple of years, and he's run more 2-4 than anyone in the league, lol...

Don't know if there's a stat out there for it... will do some looking.

That said, he did run some 2-4 in 2010, but nothing like he has been the past few years - and he had Jenkins and Raji (being used properly). Since then, he's just gone stupid.

[wist43]

What evidence have you provided? Break it down for me the running success other teams have had against Neal, Pickett, Jolly, Perry Matthews and Hawk.

The stats ayn, good grief... we get blown out and run over, and you immediately go into denial mode. Statistically, we've had one of the worst defenses in the league the past 3 seasons - and statistics be damned, didn't you watch the games?? Remember the Arizona playoff game?? The SF blowout?? Indianapolis?? The record setting pourous pass defense?? The 31st defensive ranking?? 2013's 25th defensive ranking?? On and on...

I didn't conjur the evidence like a magician; I didn't plant the evidence at the crime scene like a dirty cop... Capers is the criminal - with you on the jury, he'll continue to get away with butchering our defense forever ;)

[pbmax]

right, but that was with the "W" role for Woodson. With the loss of Woodson, and Collins on the back end, it kinda fell apart. Thus, I think you need to revise that role for Matthews at "ILB"

I think that is where the injury came in. If Hayward is healthy, I think you see him there. Might have been too much information for Hyde to absorb. Bush has done it in dime.

[pbmax]

All those failures could cook Capers' goose. But McCarthy and Thompson clearly think differently about it.

What we are disagreeing about are the contrary pieces of information like the Cardinals game, where a complete lack of pass rush (not nickel or run D) led directly to a passing game catastrophe for 3 Quarters. I think the Cardinals eventually got tired.

The adjustment, nickel at a higher rate, worked great until teams discovered that A) the pass rush still wasn't all that great unless the Packers overloaded a blitz and B) they could run at it.

So you could yo-yo back to 3-4 and psycho all the time but then all hell would break loose in the passing game with the safeties now, even if you consider Woodson replaced by Hayward/Shields. I like the middle road of finding pass rush from base lineman and not fatties alone.

And that is what Rand is trying to tell you. A more conventionally weighted D line might possess more pass rush and allow 3-4 more of the time, solving one of your primary concerns. It might also provide better run D in nickel because those displaced ends (Neal and Perry) can then play end and defend run as well as pass rush while the interior is adequately manned by others.

[Joemailman]

So if they are looking for a more conventional 3-4 D-line, do they ignore concerns about Hageman's motor and take him? Stephon Tuitt of Notre Dame, like his teammate Nix had a great 2012 and a disappointing and injury-plagued 2013. Tuitt also looks like a prototype. Or do you shore up the Safety position with Dix or Prior. Quite a few intriguing choices could have TT looking to trade down a few spots.

[mraynrand]

The stats ayn, good grief... we get blown out and run over, and you immediately go into denial mode. Statistically, we've had one of the worst defenses in the league the past 3 seasons - and statistics be damned, didn't you watch the games?? Remember the Arizona playoff game?? The SF blowout?? Indianapolis?? The record setting pourous pass defense?? The 31st defensive ranking?? 2013's 25th defensive ranking?? On and on...

I didn't conjur the evidence like a magician; I didn't plant the evidence at the crime scene like a dirty cop... Capers is the criminal - with you on the jury, he'll continue to get away with butchering our defense forever ;)

You're talking right past me. I know all about the defensive failings. You accused me of supporting the failing 2-4. I'm trying to explain that I think it is mostly a personnel issue - guys lost to retirement and injury have compromised it's effectiveness. For some reason, you think that changing the scheme would make the group of guys they had this past year better, and I'm saying perhaps, but not by much, because of the personnel.

I'm also offering an alteration of the 2-4, that tries to compensate for the loss of Woodson but putting Mattews at ILB (but really he could play a modified "W" role)

I really don't know what you want to convince me of, other than the Packers should get rid of Capers. Since they played pretty well in 2010 when they had a pretty nice core of outstanding players, I think it is less Capers and more personnel, but I'm perfectly fine with laying some blame on Capers too.

On a personal note, in a number of threads I've asked you specific questions about the defense which you've ignored. I would have been interested in your answers, but you seem more interested in ranting. That's OK, I won't ask anymore. Enjoy the rant, it's part of being a fan too :)

[mraynrand]

A more conventionally weighted D line might possess more pass rush and allow 3-4 more of the time, solving one of your primary concerns. It might also provide better run D in nickel because those displaced ends (Neal and Perry) can then play end and defend run as well as pass rush while the interior is adequately manned by others.

That's why I want that Hageman guy - I think he could be an outstanding 3-4 DE on any down and distance.

I also really want to see Perry Neal and Matthews on the field at the same time. I think they ran it a few times this past year but I gotta check for sure. I may be the only crazy idiot who thinks this is a good idea.

[run pMc]

So if they are looking for a more conventional 3-4 D-line, do they ignore concerns about Hageman's motor and take him? Stephon Tuitt of Notre Dame, like his teammate Nix had a great 2012 and a disappointing and injury-plagued 2013. Tuitt also looks like a prototype. Or do you shore up the Safety position with Dix or Prior. Quite a few intriguing choices could have TT looking to trade down a few spots.

I really like Calvin Pryor and think he has the speed to play FS and is physical enough to play SS so they'd have some flexibility there with Burnett. Plus the S position is a big mess.

If you're talking about conventional 3-4 DL where do they need most help? I like Nix at DT, but I wonder if they could put Boyd (with 10 pounds of muscle) or draft a kid like Jones out of PSU there. I think they're banking on Datone Jones making a leap, and wouldn't be surprised if they brought in someone like the Coleman kid from Cal to play the other DE spot. Unless TT trades down for extra picks, I don't think they'll draft 2 DL though. Seems like they have other holes to fill (TE, WR, LB), especially if a lot of their FA's sign elsewhere.

[run pMc]

That's why I want that Hageman guy - I think he could be an outstanding 3-4 DE on any down and distance.

I also really want to see Perry Neal and Matthews on the field at the same time. I think they ran it a few times this past year but I gotta check for sure. I may be the only crazy idiot who thinks this is a good idea.

Crazy Idea Part II: What if they put Neal at ILB next to Hawk? Hawk doesn't have the speed to cover well, but at least Neal would be a thumper inside and he's used to playing against interior OL. That would keep Matthews outside, where personally I think he'd be more dangerous than at ILB. Who knows, if all those guys knew the ILB/OLB responsibilties, Capers could move them all over the place (Perry inside one down, Matthews another, etc.)
I do think that Perry and Neal bring a lot of size to the LB group, which might not make wist happy, but it oughta make McGinn happy.

Actually, if Neal signs elsewhere, this might be a moot point.

[Brandon494]

I take back my pick, I would go with Calvin Pryor or HaHa. Getting a starter at safety is a must, we can sign veteran guys on the D-line.

[call_me_ishmael]

I would like BDPA.

I keep trying to write something about picking the guy who best compliments Burnett, but that makes no sense. Pick the best player, period.

Haha is a freak athlete I've read. Like a top 5 guy outta high school. That could make for a great center fielder. On the other hand, Pryor is an intimidator. It's a tough call.

[mraynrand]

I think the learning curve on safety is generally steeper and it's more difficult for a rookie to play well right away there than at a DL position. Let Burnett play SS and get a FS who know what he's doing and can run, like a younger and less whoring Eugene Robinson.

[mraynrand]

I take back my pick, I would go with Calvin Pryor or HaHa. Getting a starter at safety is a must, we can sign veteran guys on the D-line.

Damn, I thought we were on the same page!

[wist43]

You're talking right past me. I know all about the defensive failings. You accused me of supporting the failing 2-4. I'm trying to explain that I think it is mostly a personnel issue - guys lost to retirement and injury have compromised it's effectiveness. For some reason, you think that changing the scheme would make the group of guys they had this past year better, and I'm saying perhaps, but not by much, because of the personnel.

I'm also offering an alteration of the 2-4, that tries to compensate for the loss of Woodson but putting Mattews at ILB (but really he could play a modified "W" role)

I really don't know what you want to convince me of, other than the Packers should get rid of Capers. Since they played pretty well in 2010 when they had a pretty nice core of outstanding players, I think it is less Capers and more personnel, but I'm perfectly fine with laying some blame on Capers too.

On a personal note, in a number of threads I've asked you specific questions about the defense which you've ignored. I would have been interested in your answers, but you seem more interested in ranting. That's OK, I won't ask anymore. Enjoy the rant, it's part of being a fan too :)

ayn... apologies, not ducking questions, probably didn't see them - I'm still not well. Went back in the hospital last weekend, they kept me until Monday night. If I don't respond, or miss something - just understand that my responses will likely be spotty for a while.

[wist43]

I take back my pick, I would go with Calvin Pryor or HaHa. Getting a starter at safety is a must, we can sign veteran guys on the D-line.

I really like what I saw of Pryor - haven't researched much, but I liked what I saw of him. Our secondary is such a mess.

[wist43]

All those failures could cook Capers' goose. But McCarthy and Thompson clearly think differently about it.

What we are disagreeing about are the contrary pieces of information like the Cardinals game, where a complete lack of pass rush (not nickel or run D) led directly to a passing game catastrophe for 3 Quarters. I think the Cardinals eventually got tired.

Well a lack of pass rush, at least within that intial 2.3 second window, is a failing of the front seven. Coverage sacks happen, but if you're not getting good initial pressure, pressure up the middle, confusing their blocking scheme, and disprupting their timing - you're going to be at the mercy of QB.

A guy like Kurt Warner is going to light you up big-time.


The adjustment, nickel at a higher rate, worked great until teams discovered that A) the pass rush still wasn't all that great unless the Packers overloaded a blitz and B) they could run at it.

So you could yo-yo back to 3-4 and psycho all the time but then all hell would break loose in the passing game with the safeties now, even if you consider Woodson replaced by Hayward/Shields. I like the middle road of finding pass rush from base lineman and not fatties alone.

And that is what Rand is trying to tell you. A more conventionally weighted D line might possess more pass rush and allow 3-4 more of the time, solving one of your primary concerns. It might also provide better run D in nickel because those displaced ends (Neal and Perry) can then play end and defend run as well as pass rush while the interior is adequately manned by others.

Controlling the LOS is priority #1 to playing good defense IMO. Stopping the run, and generating pressure - pass coverage looks a hell of a lot more effective when the passing game timing is off.

You know all that...

As for our current problems, pressure and creating confusion up makes the backend easier, doesn't it??

We've loaded up on round pegs to fill the square holes... we're stuck with what we have now, at least for a while. Given the way Capers is using people, I'd prefer we resign Neal and start him at LOLB, look at moving Mulumba inside, and use Perry, Jones and Daniels in pass rush sub-packages.

A guy like Donald would help a lot, and we desperately need another 2 gap fatty to go with Pickett - if they resign him. I have absolutely no use for Brad Jones and AJ Hawk - to be sure, Capers had to have a lot of influence in giving Jones the big contract... if B. Jones is what Capers is looking for, then it shouldn't be a shock that our defense sucks.

I desperately want to see a lot more 3-3 nickel - you know how much I hate the 2-4 ;)

[mraynrand]

ayn... apologies, not ducking questions, probably didn't see them - I'm still not well. Went back in the hospital last weekend, they kept me until Monday night. If I don't respond, or miss something - just understand that my responses will likely be spotty for a while.


gotcha. Get better!

[Brandon494]

Damn, I thought we were on the same page!

After watching Seattle's defense I'm kinda jealous of their safety play, Pryor has also been getting a lot of comparisons to being a bigger Bob Sanders. I still wouldn't mind Hageman but we have gone DL early in the draft plenty of times, time to draft some skill players with our high picks.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3y2XwXujkk#t=69

[Joemailman]

I think drafting either Prior or Dix provides an immediate huge upgrade at Safety for years. That's the way to go if they're available, especially because I think there's a real dropoff after them.

[run pMc]

...and the backup plan is to put Hyde at safety and draft someone in the middle rounds like that Dixon kid from Baylor.

[smuggler]

I'm nervous about safety being the first round pick. If they take Pryor (or HAHA - who I believe will be gone by #21) I will be optimistic and not criticize it, but the guys I'm hoping for are Hageman, Mosley, or Nix.

That's all assuming there isn't some kind of situation where a top-10 talent just falls into our laps.

[Brandon494]

I'm nervous about safety being the first round pick. If they take Pryor (or HAHA - who I believe will be gone by #21) I will be optimistic and not criticize it, but the guys I'm hoping for are Hageman, Mosley, or Nix.

That's all assuming there isn't some kind of situation where a top-10 talent just falls into our laps.

Come on, when has that ever happened? :smile:

[smuggler]

Depending on who you trust for prospect rankings, 2012. I remember seeing Perry as #12 on one list or another.

Of course, the prevailing opinion had him as a mid to late first rounder.

[Brandon494]

Another safety I like in the later rounds is Brock Vereen http://www.nfl.com/draft/2014/profiles/brock-vereen?id=2543820. His brother plays on the Patriots and seems like a guy who could step in right away.

[mraynrand]

Another safety I like in the later rounds is Brock Vereen http://www.nfl.com/draft/2014/profiles/brock-vereen?id=2543820. His brother plays on the Patriots and seems like a guy who could step in right away.

Cock fights?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-VKSJbXmp5AU/TgAw4aM31VI/AAAAAAAAOpY/FRtiZpNY0No/s400/Chicken-George.jpg

[smuggler]

Jon Dowling could probably be had in the 7th round or even UDFA and he might turn into a nice FS.

[wist43]

Don't want Hageman - liked Stephen Tuitt a lot more.

Don't know what people are looking at in rating Hageman higher than Tuitt. Granted I didn't watch a lot of tape on either, but of what I did watch Hageman looked somewhat stiff and unathletic, slow to disengage, and lacked closing burst.

Tuitt on the other hand, looked much more athletic, had speed with good closing burst, used his hands much better than Hageman and disengaged much better.

Of the two, I wouldn't even consider Hageman in the 1st round - while I'd be okay with Tuitt.

[pbmax]

Don't want Hageman - liked Stephen Tuitt a lot more.

Don't know what people are looking at in rating Hageman higher than Tuitt. Granted I didn't watch a lot of tape on either, but of what I did watch Hageman looked somewhat stiff and unathletic, slow to disengage, and lacked closing burst.

Tuitt on the other hand, looked much more athletic, had speed with good closing burst, used his hands much better than Hageman and disengaged much better.

Of the two, I wouldn't even consider Hageman in the 1st round - while I'd be okay with Tuitt.

If you find them again, please post.

[mraynrand]

If you find them again, please post.

Eventually he'll get a round Tuitt.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51X7LSGHOCL.jpg

[mraynrand]

Don't want Hageman - liked Stephen Tuitt a lot more.

Don't know what people are looking at in rating Hageman higher than Tuitt. Granted I didn't watch a lot of tape on either, but of what I did watch Hageman looked somewhat stiff and unathletic, slow to disengage, and lacked closing burst.

Tuitt on the other hand, looked much more athletic, had speed with good closing burst, used his hands much better than Hageman and disengaged much better.

Of the two, I wouldn't even consider Hageman in the 1st round - while I'd be okay with Tuitt.

I watched three or four gopher games. Hageman is a beast - when he plays hard. I was worried that he took plays off, and then seemed to fatigue fairly easily. He could easily be Richard Seymour of NE or Richard Seymour of Oak, possibly on back-to-back plays, so I suspect TT will choose someone else.

[smuggler]

Richard Seymour was a good player in Oakland.

He did what everyone in America wanted to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ID6QLJxnkn8

[mraynrand]

Richard Seymour was a good player in Oakland.

He did what everyone in America wanted to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ID6QLJxnkn8


Awesomeness.

Still, my point wasn't necessarily that he got worse, just that he took more plays off in Oakland, which worries me about Larry Hageman

[wist43]

If you find them again, please post.

Can't remember which games/highlights I looked at specifically... Hageman's highlights weren't very useful for evaluation, so I just turned to individual game tape on him.

This is vs. Wisconsin in 2012. He doesn't play with much knee bend or leverage, and doesn't disengage well. One of the write up knocks on him is that he plays too high... I saw that a lot in what I watched of him.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlOLn0cB3D4

Tuitt had a down 2013. Had offseason sport hernia surgery and reported overweight and out of shape - it really showed. With his weight up, he looked sluggish and didn't make much of an impact. As the season wore on, he dropped some weight and began to play himself into shape, and played much better.

For Tuitt, I think he has more physical tools and upside than Hageman - just depends on what you think of him as a kid. If you think he'll dedicate himself and work to stay in good shape?? Then his upside is much higher than Hagemans. If you think he'll be an offseason Big Mac machine, and won't keep himself in shape, then I'd pass on him.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-yzvz3TFIQ

Aaron Donald was a constant disrupter. Would take him every day of the week over the other 2 guys.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3YKvx6LcBs#aid=P9rbMmCqeAY

[mraynrand]

no two-gapping for Donald. Release the hounds!

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Players I like in round one, Clinton-Dix, Pryor, Nix, and Ebron. Hopefully one of those four is available at 21. After that I wouldn't mind trading up in the second if Brandin Cooks starts falling a little. I think he would be perfect in our offense.

[Pugger]

After watching Seattle's defense I'm kinda jealous of their safety play, Pryor has also been getting a lot of comparisons to being a bigger Bob Sanders. I still wouldn't mind Hageman but we have gone DL early in the draft plenty of times, time to draft some skill players with our high picks.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3y2XwXujkk#t=69

A couple of his hits early in this clip might be helmet to helmet but I hope we could get him. I like the edge and attitude he brings. We could use a few more guys like this on D.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

A couple of his hits early in this clip might be helmet to helmet but I hope we could get him. I like the edge and attitude he brings. We could use a few more guys like this on D.

Yep and he is a solid tackler. he would be an instant upgrade on defense.

[pbmax]

Hageman was giving the left guard fits. Everything is leverage with him, and it stems from his height. If he gets lower (and he never gets real low) than the o lineman, he can deliver a shot and drive him back.

But he was useless with any other maneuver except speed. And that head low and launch into the lineman was useless against a double team. And I agree with wist, if the lineman got their hands on him, he wasn't quick to the ball or to disengage.

That is a decidedly mixed bag.

[Striker]

I'm hoping for Pryor in the first if the Packers don't add a safety through FA, and even then picking him up to replace Burnett at some point would be good...having safety depth would sure be a concept.

[wist43]

no two-gapping for Donald. Release the hounds!

The same for Raji and Jones - and look what Capers has done with those guys?? If we did draft Donald, Capers wouldn't use him right - so we're kind of stuck... do we draft a good player only to see him wasted; or, do we hope for an offensive player knowing he will likely help the team more than any defensive player??

Like I said, I see Donald as a Cullen Jenkins type. I like him better than Tuitt and Hegeman.

[mraynrand]

The same for Raji and Jones - and look what Capers has done with those guys?? If we did draft Donald, Capers wouldn't use him right - so we're kind of stuck... do we draft a good player only to see him wasted; or, do we hope for an offensive player knowing he will likely help the team more than any defensive player??

Like I said, I see Donald as a Cullen Jenkins type. I like him better than Tuitt and Hegeman.

The thing I have a hard time assessing is the consequences of level of competition and how a player is used and defended. For Larry Hagman, I saw him double teamed a lot, and saw him two gap (or at least not fly upfield) against Wisconsin's O-line. For Donald - at least on the highlights, he was bursting upfield on the snap every time against Navy and some other team I never heard of, and never double-teamed. So I need to see more tape and look at what scouts say. no doubt Donald has burst, but I suspect he would have to be platooned and you wonder if the Packers' scheme will rush lineman enough to justify drafting him - especially if they feel Jones Daniels and Worthy provide enough push from the DL position.

[Fritz]

From what I can tell, Dix would fit the Packers' scheme and needs better than Pryor. We all want a hitter, but if Burnett is better closer to the LOS, then Dix roaming in centerfield would sure look good. Seems to me in the last couple days, Dix has risen in the writers' esteem to be seen as a cut above Pryor. Sounds like the dude might be gone by #15 or so.

But if Raji and Pickett are both to be gone, Nix from ND would be good.

So, for me, it's Dix or Nix.

Wait, that didn't sound right.

[3irty1]

The same for Raji and Jones - and look what Capers has done with those guys?? If we did draft Donald, Capers wouldn't use him right - so we're kind of stuck... do we draft a good player only to see him wasted; or, do we hope for an offensive player knowing he will likely help the team more than any defensive player??

Like I said, I see Donald as a Cullen Jenkins type. I like him better than Tuitt and Hegeman.

I like him better too. I see him more like Daniels than Jenkins though and Daniels has been a stud for us. Even in our defense you get your chances to win one-on-ones and good football players like Donald will leave their mark.

[smuggler]

After the combine, I would think Donald would be gone by 21...

[Joemailman]

I voted for Nix, but I'm starting to wonder if he's a Raji clone. If he is, does it make sense to let Raji go after 4 years and draft someone just like him?

[red]

I voted for Nix, but I'm starting to wonder if he's a Raji clone. If he is, does it make sense to let Raji go after 4 years and draft someone just like him?

yes it would, because nix will cost a fraction of what raji would, and raji has no desire to be a packer

[denverYooper]

yes it would, because nix will cost a fraction of what raji would, and raji has no desire to be a packer

This. If he can be Raji + desire, we'd be set.

[Smidgeon]

I know you've all been waiting for me to make my vote. I can tell.

I'm voting for Clinton Dix. We need the elite center fielder. That isn't Burnett. Burnett is (if I've read correctly), better at the line of scrimmage. Don't know how good Clinton Dix will be, and it's taken longer this offseason to identify a favorite, but he is it this year.

Which means the Cowboys will trade up to right in front of the Packers to take him...

[Brandon494]

At this point I don't care if its Pryor or HaHa....I just want a damn safety with our 1st pick.

[red]

At this point I don't care if its Pryor or HaHa....I just want a damn safety with our 1st pick.

yeah, pretty much. i just want an upgrade at safety period, i'd even take 2. and i don't care where they come from, but the first round seems to be the best option

[Fritz]

I agree with Smidge. I like Clinton Dix (so does Monica Lewinsky), but that means someone will trade up to nab the guy, or he'll be gone by 21.

[Joemailman]

I know you've all been waiting for me to make my vote. I can tell.

I'm voting for Clinton Dix. We need the elite center fielder. That isn't Burnett. Burnett is (if I've read correctly), better at the line of scrimmage. Don't know how good Clinton Dix will be, and it's taken longer this offseason to identify a favorite, but he is it this year.

Which means the Cowboys will trade up to right in front of the Packers to take him...

Well, the Cowboys already have the 16th pick, so they don't need to trade up. Everybody seems to think the Cowboys are going DT. The Bears could be the team to take Haha or Pryor. The Eagles, who pick right after the Packers, are also probably looking for a Safety.

[Brandon494]

Cowboys secondary is awful and in their division especially with the Eagles they are going to be looking to improve there. HaHa isn't falling to #21, he's been the #1 safety prospect since H.S.

[pbmax]

Cowboys secondary is awful and in their division especially with the Eagles they are going to be looking to improve there. HaHa isn't falling to #21, he's been the #1 safety prospect since H.S.

True, but aren't they sticking with Marinelli/Kiffin and the Tampa 2? Might place less premium on DBs.

[Striker]

True, but aren't they sticking with Marinelli/Kiffin and the Tampa 2? Might place less premium on DBs.

Plus there's the whole Jerry Jones factor...maybe he'll just go with the highest rated player with the best measurables.

[pbmax]

Plus there's the whole Jerry Jones factor...maybe he'll just go with the highest rated player with the best measurables.

I think Jones is underrated as a NFL draft personnel guy. I think he has trained himself pretty well. Look at their backup pick of Frederick at Center last year. Everyone thought you could trade down and grab him as he was tagged as a 3rd Rounder in some places, but he played like a 1st/top 2nd round pick. Jones might not be Wolf, but the Cowboys have talent. He is better than the Dolphins or Jags at this.

Where he is still terrible is as Team President. Bad coaching hires, hiring more coaches to cover for the deficiencies of the current coaches. Overlapping responsibility. Changing horses on D after drafting for a 3-4 for the last new guy on D and then denying that was true. Then insisting in the middle of the calamity that followed that your Tampa 2 D play more man coverage to match personnel.

Jerry the GM/Owner should fire the Team President and let his son advance and pick the new coach. Then the GM can tailor what he is doing to new staff.

[pbmax]

Tom Silverstein ‏@TomSilverstein 1h
With Pryor and Clinton-Dix running 4.58s, not sure either one is a lock if there for #Packers at No. 21. M. Burnett ran 4.51, Collins, 4.36.

[red]

Where he is still terrible is as Team President. Bad coaching hires, hiring more coaches to cover for the deficiencies of the current coaches. Overlapping responsibility..

wait, this sounds a bit familiar

[red]

Tom Silverstein ‏@TomSilverstein 1h
With Pryor and Clinton-Dix running 4.58s, not sure either one is a lock if there for #Packers at No. 21. M. Burnett ran 4.51, Collins, 4.36.

whats toms point here? is he trying to say 40time=how good they guy is

because i don't care if burnett ran a 3.51, he just fucking sucks, and not only will both dix and pryor both probably be better then our #2 saftey, but they'll probably both also be light years better then burnett

[pbmax]

whats toms point here? is he trying to say 40time=how good they guy is

because i don't care if burnett ran a 3.51, he just fucking sucks, and not only will both dix and pryor both probably be better then our #2 saftey, but they'll probably both also be light years better then burnett

Ted is the type (Lurker used to point this out when Waldo wasn't) that has a physical type. And a 4.5 safety may not be in his wheelhouse in the first round. I think that is a fair bet.

[run pMc]

Ted is the type (Lurker used to point this out when Waldo wasn't) that has a physical type. And a 4.5 safety may not be in his wheelhouse in the first round. I think that is a fair bet.

You might be onto something here, especially if people fall in love with HaHa and Pryor (which is likely) and there are better values at 21. I think HaHa will be gone by 21, especially looking at where Barron, Vaccaro and Reid have gone in prior drafts.
Most don't think Mosley will be there at 21, now I'm reading otherwise. Would you take him over Pryor? What about Louis Nix? That Terrence Brooks kid from FSU ran a 4.42 and while he's a little short he's played both CB and FS and will be there in R2 and maybe after that. TT isn't going to lock onto a specific player, and so many variables between now and when they are on the clock. I do think he'll address the safety spot big time, Jennings not being tendered and McCarthy mentioning the possibility of Hyde moving to Safety are the first dominoes.

[The Shadow]

Nix does just not look that special to these old eyes.

[pbmax]

You might be onto something here, especially if people fall in love with HaHa and Pryor (which is likely) and there are better values at 21. I think HaHa will be gone by 21, especially looking at where Barron, Vaccaro and Reid have gone in prior drafts.
Most don't think Mosley will be there at 21, now I'm reading otherwise. Would you take him over Pryor? What about Louis Nix? That Terrence Brooks kid from FSU ran a 4.42 and while he's a little short he's played both CB and FS and will be there in R2 and maybe after that. TT isn't going to lock onto a specific player, and so many variables between now and when they are on the clock. I do think he'll address the safety spot big time, Jennings not being tendered and McCarthy mentioning the possibility of Hyde moving to Safety are the first dominoes.

I don't know much about the others, my capacity to understand football, such as it is normally, fails utterly to explain why some college guys make good pros and others don't. so I don't do much scouting or draft prognostication. That video wist posted about Hageman versus the Badgers was the first scouting tape I have looked at since Jordy versus Talib.

But I do keep tabs on Ted and despite my initial reluctance to buy it, both Lurker and Waldo made excellent points years ago about Ted not usually varying the physical profile he is looking for. Not in the first 3 or 4 rounds anyway. Everyone talks about the Hawk pick and Ted's comments that he was obviously a football player through and through. But Hawk also posted remarkable numbers to back up his film.

So if there is a fast, big enough, former CB in the second round who profiles as a better physical match for FS, my initial reaction would be to think Ted is more likely to do that in the 2nd round than a slower than ideal Safety in the first. Certainly so, if he would have to trade up to get them in the first.

[Joemailman]

Would TT ever take a Safety in the 1st round? I mean other than a guy who runs a 4.30 forty, has great fluidity and hits like a Sherman tank? If Collins wasn't a 1st round pick, and guys like HaHa and Pryor aren't 1st round picks, what would it take?

[Fritz]

Would TT ever take a Safety in the 1st round? I mean other than a guy who runs a 4.30 forty, has great fluidity and hits like a Sherman tank? If Collins wasn't a 1st round pick, and guys like HaHa and Pryor aren't 1st round picks, what would it take?

Of course he would, if he thought the guy was the best player on the board. If it were close between a safety and a lineman, he might prefer the big body.

The key to the first round pick, as PB alluded to briefly, is what Ted knows about other players that we don't. He might have some kid from Central Northeast Wyoming State in his back pocket, some kid with 4.3 speed who is a converted wide receiver and missed the last third of his senior season due to mono. Ted will pass on HaHa and Pryor, we'll all scream bloody murder (me included), and in the fourth round we'll all scream again when Ted takes the Wyoming kid.

Who will either turn into Nick Collins or Jerron McMillan.

[pbmax]

The key to the first round pick, as PB alluded to briefly, is what Ted knows about other players that we don't. He might have some kid from Central Northeast Wyoming State in his back pocket, some kid with 4.3 speed who is a converted wide receiver and missed the last third of his senior season due to mono. Ted will pass on HaHa and Pryor, we'll all scream bloody murder (me included), and in the fourth round we'll all scream again when Ted takes the Wyoming kid.


Never forget the Colorado School of Mines. Don't sleep on a Miner.

[run pMc]

Justin Gilbert for FS! ;)

[red]

Would TT ever take a Safety in the 1st round? I mean other than a guy who runs a 4.30 forty, has great fluidity and hits like a Sherman tank? If Collins wasn't a 1st round pick, and guys like HaHa and Pryor aren't 1st round picks, what would it take?

well, a lot of people thought we shouls have taken a safety in the first last year, two were available (elam, vacarro). tt didn't like either, whether they didn't fit his mold, or there was something else he didn't like about them

both would have been massive upgrades to either of our starting safeties last year

TT's taken a bit of flack for that. maybe that forces him to change his thinking and actually do everything he can to fix the biggest hole on the team

[3irty1]

Ted is the type (Lurker used to point this out when Waldo wasn't) that has a physical type. And a 4.5 safety may not be in his wheelhouse in the first round. I think that is a fair bet.

Ted has certainly shown that he values size/speed combo in his safeties quite a bit more than anyone else. In his very first draft Nick Collins and Marviel Underwood were both considered big reaches by 2 or 3 rounds. Same goes for Jerron McMillan. Burnett is an outstanding size/speed combo as well with some other elite traits and Ted liked him enough to trade up for him. Aaron Rouse was nothing but a size/speed combo, as was Sean Richardson.

Only thing I can say here is that the only real smoking fast 4.30 type safeties he's drafted were Collins and McMillan, both of whom were extreme small school guys. Perhaps the theory is that if you intend to throw a guy with questionable experience into the fire, it helps mask his mistakes if he's the fastest one on the field. You know, the Sam Shields theory. This is the same Ted that brought in Atari Bigby and even spent money on Charley Peprah who were both so slow they were only rosterable because of their instincts.

I don't think Ted would get too hung up on the numbers, even in the first round with a guy who consistently makes good decisive decisions.

[3irty1]

well, a lot of people thought we shouls have taken a safety in the first last year, two were available (elam, vacarro). tt didn't like either, whether they didn't fit his mold, or there was something else he didn't like about them

both would have been massive upgrades to either of our starting safeties last year

TT's taken a bit of flack for that. maybe that forces him to change his thinking and actually do everything he can to fix the biggest hole on the team

That can't be right. You thinking of that Cyprien guy who went to Jacksonville?

[red]

That can't be right. You thinking of that Cyprien guy who went to Jacksonville?

yup, you're right. cyprien was the other guy still there

[red]

speed isn't everything for a safety, its nice, but not necessary

cam chancellor ran a 4.62, and the guy who i think all of us would take in a second, jairus byrd, ran a 4.68

if TT is dead set on his size/speed thing, then we're in trouble. because our guys aren't big, they're not fast, and they haven't been very good the last few drafts

[pbmax]

speed isn't everything for a safety, its nice, but not necessary

cam chancellor ran a 4.62, and the guy who i think all of us would take in a second, jairus byrd, ran a 4.68

if TT is dead set on his size/speed thing, then we're in trouble. because our guys aren't big, they're not fast, and they haven't been very good the last few drafts

I know Chancellor does not, but does Byrd play deep single safety?

What were Ryan Clark's speed numbers?

[3irty1]

Elam and Cyprien would certainly have been upgrades for us but both on draft day and in retrospect I'd say they were a far shot from BPA for our first round pick.

Kam Chancellor is still pretty fast considering his size but more importantly I'm not sure he'd be Kam Chancellor if he didn't have Earl Thomas as a compliment.

Byrd ran a 4.68 but he also ran a 1.53 10 yard dash and put up an excellent 6.75 3-cone. He's not going to win many races past the mailbox but he's still one hell of an athlete. World class ball skills don't hurt either.

I guess what I'm saying is that if you have probowl hopes for a safety, speed matters a lot. Since 2001 the average 40 time for a probowl safety is 4.46. Byrd's time is by far the slowest, but the next slowest guy to make multiple pro bowls is Ed Reed with a 4.57.

[mraynrand]

as an aside - I recall someone repeatedly pointing to how great Elam was for injuring Cobb (Rodgers12/Tank). Same Elam guy gave up a 50 yarder to Finley when Ravens needed a stop (go Finley!).

Ted wants a free safety with some speed, and that guy isn't there in the first round. I suspect there are going to be a lot of very unhappy campers here come draft day.

[red]

so, elam gave up 1 50 yarder in 1 game

our safeties gave up like 3 of those every game

[mraynrand]

so, elam gave up 1 50 yarder in 1 game

our safeties gave up like 3 of those every game

when it mattered, he blew it.

[smuggler]

Guess wh got burned on Lynch's long TD run in the NFC Championship? That's right. Eric Reid. Tur s out rookie safeties fuck up.

[Fritz]

Guess wh got burned on Lynch's long TD run in the NFC Championship? That's right. Eric Reid. Tur s out rookie safeties fuck up.

Let's move on to this year's college safeties! Who's Ted gonna draft?

[Zool]

Let's move on to this year's college safeties! Who's Ted gonna draft?

Someone who's going to fuck up.

[RashanGary]

i like calvin pryor. Hes a friggin tone setter, probably one of the biggest hitting safeties ive seen come out. You hate to pass up on a big, but with the undeniable success of teams with elite safety play, you hate to pass up on one of those too.

[Fritz]

Me, I'd prefer someone like Dix to play center field so Burnett can be freed up to play around the line of scrimmage more.

[RashanGary]

Me, I'd prefer someone like Dix to play center field so Burnett can be freed up to play around the line of scrimmage more.

Fritz, imget that, i do. ive just started to look at this draft and ive changed my tune a little over the pyears. I used to look for ideal qualities that would fit an ideal scinerio. Now i look for impact players. pryor looks like an impact guy, a stud. I wasnt expecting to like pryor, but inwatched him play and visions of having a killer in our secondary went through my mind. I like his game, looks like a difference maker more than haha.

[smuggler]

I have a feeling we'll take Terrence Brooks in the 3rd or 4th round.

As far as Nix/Tuitt/Hageman, I can say that Nix is the most eloquent of the three, and that Tuitt and Nix are both more... cerebral... than Hageman. That doesn't always mean much, though.

[Fritz]

Johnny Jolly never struck me as a Mr. Wizard type of dude, but he apparently knew enough to knock down passes and mix chemicals successfully.

[woodbuck27]

http://fansided.com/2014/02/25/nfl-scouting-combine-2014-jimmie-ward-wont-work-tuesday/

21 Green Bay Packers Jimmie Ward Safety Northern Illinois

Comment woodbuck27:

This fella is showing up as possibly TT's pick. Anybody liking this fella as the pick at #21?

NFL Scouting Combine 2014: Jimmie Ward won’t work out Tuesday

By: Josh Sanchez - Feb 25th, 2014 at 7:35 am

GO PACK GO !

[smuggler]

apparently knew enough to knock down passes and mix chemicals successfully.

A codeine tablet and a cup of soda? Truly complicated science.

[red]

well, we need to put CB as a pretty high priority now

if shields leaves, and this probably being tramons last year (if we even keep him for this year), then the leaves us with just hayward, hyde and house for 2015

and maybe not even that if the hamstring injury from hell never heals

[mraynrand]

A codeine tablet and a cup of soda? Truly complicated science.

without a Mettler balance, a graduated cylinder, and a an erlenmeyer flask, getting dosages right is a real art.

[denverYooper]

without a Mettler balance, a graduated cylinder, and a an erlenmeyer flask, getting dosages right is a real art.

A clean, dry Erlenmeyer flask.

[mraynrand]

A clean, dry Erlenmeyer flask.

heated and cooled, and weighed three separate times.

[Smidgeon]

well, we need to put CB as a pretty high priority now

if shields leaves, and this probably being tramons last year (if we even keep him for this year), then the leaves us with just hayward, hyde and house for 2015

and maybe not even that if the hamstring injury from hell never heals

And between House's regression, Jennings' plateauing, and McMillian's severe regression and roster cut, I don't see how the Packers' DB coaches are still getting a paycheck...

House better show up this year.

[Freak Out]

Chem lab all over again.

[bobblehead]

A codeine tablet and a cup of soda? Truly complicated science.

Look, you need just the right ratio of watermelon iced tea, skittles and codeine based cough syrup to make lean. Not just any schmoe can pull it off.

[bobblehead]

without a Mettler balance, a graduated cylinder, and a an erlenmeyer flask, getting dosages right is a real art.

but how do you get the blue tint?

[mraynrand]

but how do you get the blue tint?

Cobalt. But we're talking quantitative analysis here. Qualitative is next semester.

[ThunderDan]

heated and cooled, and weighed three separate times.

Acetone, my friend.

[Fritz]

http://fansided.com/2014/02/25/nfl-scouting-combine-2014-jimmie-ward-wont-work-tuesday/

21 Green Bay Packers Jimmie Ward Safety Northern Illinois

Comment woodbuck27:

This fella is showing up as possibly TT's pick. Anybody liking this fella as the pick at #21?

NFL Scouting Combine 2014: Jimmie Ward won’t work out Tuesday

By: Josh Sanchez - Feb 25th, 2014 at 7:35 am

GO PACK GO !

I read a couple comments over the weekend that suggested the pundits think this may be one of the deepest drafts in many a year.

If you buy into that, does anyone think that TT (and other GM's) might be less inclined to trade up? With such a deep talent pool, does it make less sense to trade up than otherwise?

Or, could it be that the cost to trade up would get cheaper? Would a fifth round pick this year have the value of a fourth round pick in other years, if in fact the draft pool is deeper? Do GM's take this into account when they use those draft pick charts?

Would any of you trade up in a really deep draft?

[Joemailman]

I would definitely look to trade down more than up. In TT's case if you can get a 3rd by trading down to the late 1st/early 2nd round, that would be as good as getting an extra 2nd next year. I like the idea of trading down and still being able to draft a Kyle Fuller or Stephon Tuitt.

[red]

yeah, i'm not trading up, not when we have as many holes as we have that we'll probably have to fill only through the draft, and with the draft being so deep this year

[mraynrand]

Would any of you trade up in a really deep draft?

if you could trade up to get Evans (the WR), I would do it. But a lot of mocks have him being taken at 10 by the Lions, so there's probably no way to do that without giving up four picks. If Evans drops to 14 or 15, I'd like to see the Packers move up to get him. But I guess that's unlikely because I think he did well at the combine. Maybe the TE if he's as good as all that. Packer nation will go crazy if TT doesn't take a safety I think...

[mraynrand]

yeah, i'm not trading up, not when we have as many holes as we have that we'll probably have to fill only through the draft, and with the draft being so deep this year

I don't think there's as many holes as you think, but it depends on return from injury and FA results. Who do we lose, who do we pick up. Even with this staff's ability to get rookies to play, I still don't like the idea of having to plug in more than a starter and one or two spot duty guys as rookies, especially in the defensive secondary...

[red]

if you could trade up to get Evans (the WR), I would do it. But a lot of mocks have him being taken at 10 by the Lions, so there's probably no way to do that without giving up four picks. If Evans drops to 14 or 15, I'd like to see the Packers move up to get him. But I guess that's unlikely because I think he did well at the combine. Maybe the TE if he's as good as all that. Packer nation will go crazy if TT doesn't take a safety I think...

see, no way i would want to trade up for a WR, no matter how good he looks. first round WR's scare the shit out of me, they just have such a high bust rate, and they all look so good in college and at the combine

and still don't think i would want to move up, even if one of my big three guys was there for the taking (haha, pryor and mosley)

[red]

I don't think there's as many holes as you think, but it depends on return from injury and FA results. Who do we lose, who do we pick up. Even with this staff's ability to get rookies to play, I still don't like the idea of having to plug in more than a starter and one or two spot duty guys as rookies, especially in the defensive secondary...

i got

1 safety, depth wise we're fine, and burnett can be OK if he has someone playing next to him that can make him look better
at least 1 ILB. we need a starter next to hawk
depending on what happens with neal(i think he's gone because there has been no talks) we need at least 1 OLB for depth
at least 2 D-linemen. even if picket or wilson is resigned, we still lack depth. jolly will probably miss all or most of next season.
we either need a starting center, or if treter is the answer, a backup center/guard
some people think we should draft a backup QB somewhat high. theres even talk linking us with the QB from LSU who's projected as a 2nd rounder
WR, is quickly going to become a position of need depending on what happens with jones and cobb and nelson next year
a starting TE, i'm not as high as some on quarless and bostick
and maybe a new fullback depending on what happens with kuhn

and those are the holes i think are important, not just ST type guys

[ThunderDan]

if you could trade up to get Evans (the WR), I would do it. But a lot of mocks have him being taken at 10 by the Lions, so there's probably no way to do that without giving up four picks. If Evans drops to 14 or 15, I'd like to see the Packers move up to get him. But I guess that's unlikely because I think he did well at the combine. Maybe the TE if he's as good as all that. Packer nation will go crazy if TT doesn't take a safety I think...

How dare you criticize TT, you are on the other side of the fence!

[smuggler]

to trade up to #11 would probably cost our 3rd round pick, possibly also a 5th or something.

[Guiness]

to trade up to #11 would probably cost our 3rd round pick, possibly also a 5th or something.

From 21st? More than that I would guess. A 2nd or next year's first would be a better guess at the cost of that.

[red]

From 21st? More than that I would guess. A 2nd or next year's first would be a better guess at the cost of that.

yup

byt the charts, #11 is worth 1250, #21 is worth 800. our second round pick would be worth about 380. meaning we might also have to throw in the 3rd or the 4th

we would be giving up our draft to move up 10 spots

[mraynrand]

yup

byt the charts, #11 is worth 1250, #21 is worth 800. our second round pick would be worth about 380. meaning we might also have to throw in the 3rd or the 4th

we would be giving up our draft to move up 10 spots

I was thinking our 1st, second and two late round picks. Getting up to 10 is too costly, if it's only draft picks.

[Fritz]

You know what's weird? We usually start foaming at the mouth about now regarding the draft, and we get to a fever-pitch for a whole month before we finally got there in April.

But we're already foaming, yet we've got to wait even longer for the draft. By the time the damn thing actually hits, no one will know anything about which players are highly regarded. By that point, the guy currently projected to go in the top five might drop to the damn second round.

[Bretsky]

Can we use Brad Jones to trade up ?
wait

Can we use Brad Jones to trade down ?

[Fritz]

Brad Jones is worth a conditional 7th round pick in 2018.

[red]

Brad Jones is worth a conditional 7th round pick in 2018.

thats not bad, if we were to lose him in free agency the league would take away a 4th rounder from us instead of giving us a comp pick

[smuggler]

Green Bay values later picks more than many other teams. That might make a trade up 10 spots impossible.

[Bretsky]

Brad Jones is worth a conditional 7th round pick in 2018.



DONE

Whoever took him at that salary are morons :)

[Joemailman]

DONE

Whoever took him at that salary are morons :)

I think this could be Jonesie's breakout year.

[red]

I think this could be Jonesie's breakout year.

i think he's got a good shot at "breaking" something this year

probably his neck, that seems to be what all the cool kids are doing these days

[mraynrand]

I think this could be Jonesie's breakout year.

http://s.pikabu.ru/images/big_size_comm/2012-09_5/13483369071980.gif

[run pMc]

I would rather they trade DOWN if they're going for a WR...there will still be a ton of good talent in R2 IMO, and while Evans is a good prospect he's not the only tall WR in the draft.
Agree they are better off trading down than up, although there will be teams who have someone they really covet and will try to move up or get back into R1.