Some believe Capers is not the problem - GM Ted Thompson Needs to Step Up His game.

[woodbuck27]

http://www.packersnews.com/article/20140115/PKR0101/140115042/Packers-Talkback-Some-believe-Capers-not-problem?odyssey=obinsite

Packers Talkback: Some believe Capers is not the problem

"...defensive coordinator Dom Capers didn't have enough talent to work with and the problems of the Packers defense stemmed from some poor recent drafts by general manager Ted Thompson." FROM LINK

Jan. 15, 2014

GO PACK GO !

[packrulz]

I'm reluctant to call them poor drafts, I think that is premature, but so many of them have been injured it makes me wonder if they're pushing them too hard or coddling them too much. I don't blame Capers at all.

[MadScientist]

The 2011 and 2012 drafts haven't panned out very well, but it is more than that. When they first went to the 3-4, TT put a lot into getting key players for the 3-4, a NT (Raji) and an OLB (Matthews). Since then, the players have been more of a best player that plays position X without too much regard for the fit in the system. Between that and injuries, Capers doesn't seem to trust his players. It has gone from a 'dare the offense to find the hole in time' attitude to a 'try to minimize the holes and make the offense work for it' attitude.

Even with problems at other positions, if you swapped our safeties for Seattle's, I bet people here would be asking if Capers is going to get a HC spot elsewhere.

[red]

i don't know who's fault it is anymore because things have been spun so many different ways

all i know is our defense absolutely sucked at the end of last season, and we're pissing away prime super bowl winning chances (a-rod years) by having a shitting D holding back out team

for me, you either need to bring in guys that can stay healthy and our D-cord can actually use

or you bring in a d-cord that can use the players our GM drafts

we can't keep doing what we've been doing. that's not working for shit

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

I'm reluctant to call them poor drafts, I think that is premature, but so many of them have been injured it makes me wonder if they're pushing them too hard or coddling them too much. I don't blame Capers at all.

I'm not reluctant, they were bad drafts for the most part. 2010 wasn't so hot either. Capers is not fully responsible, but I'm not his biggest fan either.

[3irty1]

The 2010 draft was pretty fantastic. Every single one of those players has started games for us and all of them are good enough to win with as starters. All of them finished or will finish their rookie contracts for us. That's pretty awesome.

2011 seems pretty average since it produced Cobb and House but also produced Sherrod was a significant setback even if he does make something of himself. 2012 could yet produce a few pro bowlers.

[Joemailman]

The 2010 draft was pretty fantastic. Every single one of those players has started games for us and all of them are good enough to win with as starters. All of them finished or will finish their rookie contracts for us. That's pretty awesome.

2011 seems pretty average since it produced Cobb and House but also produced Sherrod was a significant setback even if he does make something of himself. 2012 could yet produce a few pro bowlers.

2011 looks pretty bad unless House and Sherrod become solid starters. 2012 still could be pretty good if Perry, Worthy and Hayward can get and stay healthy. The early returns on 2013 look pretty good. A starting LT, Pro Bowl running back and solid secondary guy so far. Datone Jones and Tretter could make this one of TT's better drafts.

[red]

2011 looks pretty bad unless House and Sherrod become solid starters. 2012 still could be pretty good if Perry, Worthy and Hayward can get and stay healthy. The early returns on 2013 look pretty good. A starting LT, Pro Bowl running back and solid secondary guy so far. Datone Jones and Tretter could make this one of TT's better drafts.

this brings up a good point, but off topic for this thread, but who the fuck cares

when bulaga gets healthy, does he remain at LT (where he was suppose to play this year but we never got to see him play), or does he move back to RT and you leave bak at LT(where he wasn't great, but not bad as a 4th round rookie)?

[Joemailman]

this brings up a good point, but off topic for this thread, but who the fuck cares

when bulaga gets healthy, does he remain at LT (where he was suppose to play this year but we never got to see him play), or does he move back to RT and you leave bak at LT(where he wasn't great, but not bad as a 4th round rookie)?

Given his injury history, I wouldn't put him at LT. I'd put him at RT and let Bakh and Sherrod battle it out at LT. (Sherrod's injury doesn't make him injury prone. What happened to him would have knocked out anybody.) If Bulaga gets hurt at RT again, you have an experienced guy in Barclay to take his place. If Sherrod plays well enough to beat out Bakh, then you would have to figure out what to do with him. But that would be a nice problem to have.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

The 2010 draft was pretty fantastic. Every single one of those players has started games for us and all of them are good enough to win with as starters. All of them finished or will finish their rookie contracts for us. That's pretty awesome.

2011 seems pretty average since it produced Cobb and House but also produced Sherrod was a significant setback even if he does make something of himself. 2012 could yet produce a few pro bowlers.

2010 would have been solid if I couldn't name at least four players who missed the better part of two years worth of games. Easy to finish your rookie contract if the coaches are always waiting for "next year." TT had solid drafts in 05, 06, 08, and 09. If Datone Jones turns out, 2013 looks like its solid as well. 2007 and 2010 were okay/average, 2011 was bad, and 2012 is looking bad. So from 2010 to 2012 we have had average to below average drafts. First five drafts have been a lot better than the last four. Not bashing TT, simply stating facts.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Given his injury history, I wouldn't put him at LT. I'd put him at RT and let Bakh and Sherrod battle it out at LT. (Sherrod's injury doesn't make him injury prone. What happened to him would have knocked out anybody.) If Bulaga gets hurt at RT again, you have an experienced guy in Barclay to take his place. If Sherrod plays well enough to beat out Bakh, then you would have to figure out what to do with him. But that would be a nice problem to have.

I'm excited to see what Tretter can do. First two years in college he was a TE and then he moved to tackle so he is still learning the position. He has good size and he's a very smart guy (scored a 33 on his wonderlic). I hope we throw him in the mix right away in camp.

Bakh/Lang/Tretter/Sitton/Bulaga has potential to be a very good oline.

[Carolina_Packer]

I said it in another thread, the safety net (no pun intended) is less when you don't bother with veteran free agency. You are not only drafting and developing, in some cases you are throwing them to the wolves, and we as fans just want the best possible product on the field and a greatly competitive team, and a front office and coaching staff that finds and fixes problems, and doesn't hide behind too much loyalty. I'm sure the young players are thrilled to be given opportunities so soon, but the real problem is that many of them are not ready for the responsibility, and I think most fans know that. This is the state of our team. If our picks and college free agents don't develop quickly and make a solid contribution, or they get hurt and can't do so, then it really hurts the overall progress of the team. The cap numbers will be healthy under Thompson, but does he really know when to step on the gas and sign a reasonable and much needed veteran free agent, vs. his typical slow and steady approach?

[3irty1]

2010 would have been solid if I couldn't name at least four players who missed the better part of two years worth of games. Easy to finish your rookie contract if the coaches are always waiting for "next year." TT had solid drafts in 05, 06, 08, and 09. If Datone Jones turns out, 2013 looks like its solid as well. 2007 and 2010 were okay/average, 2011 was bad, and 2012 is looking bad. So from 2010 to 2012 we have had average to below average drafts. First five drafts have been a lot better than the last four. Not bashing TT, simply stating facts.

I wouldn't say those are the facts. If I had to rank the drafts, extrapolating on the ones that are too new to truly evaluate I'd do it like so:

2005, 2009, 2013, 2008, 2010, 2012, 2006, 2011, 2007

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

I wouldn't say those are the facts. If I had to rank the drafts, extrapolating on the ones that are too new to truly evaluate I'd do it like so:

2005, 2009, 2013, 2008, 2010, 2012, 2006, 2011, 2007


2005
Rodgers
Collins
Murphy
Poppinga

Hall of frame QB and should have been hall of frame FS. That makes this the best by far. Murphy I feel would have been a solid pick esp playing with Favre and Rodgers. Poppinga was a decent stop gap for a few years.


2006
Hawk
Colledge
Jennings
Splitz
Blackmon
Jolly

Jennings and Jolly were great picks. Jennings played a major role in us winning the superbowl and Jolly was a steal in the 6th. Splitz and Colledge were decent stop gaps and Colledge even started the year we won the superbowl. Hawk is Hawk. We wanted better at number 5 but it could have been worse. Blackmon was a good return guy/role player.

2007
Jones
Jackson
Hall
Bishop
Crosby

Harrell ruined this draft. Jones was a great pick in round 3. Jackson was a good 3rd down back. Hall was a good 6th round pick - played fb and sp teams. Bishop was a steal in round 6 and Crosby turned out to be our kicker of the future. Had Harrell turned out, this would have been a good draft...he made it average.

2008
Nelson
Finley
Sitton
Giacomini
Flynn
Swain

Nelson was a great pick. Finley was a steal in round 3 and Sitton was a even bigger steal in round 4. Giacomini actually starts for Settle (maybe we gave up on him to early?). Flynn is a good backup QB that we found in round 7. Swain actually played in the superbowl so I'll mention him. This is a very underrated draft by TT. He had some bad misses, but go to round 3 and 4 and he picked two of the best players in both rounds.



2009
Raji
Matthews
Lang
Wynn
Jones

Raji, Matthews, and Lang all turned out to be solid starters. Matthews and Raji have both made the probowl. Wynn was a decent top gap and Jones is starting some how.


2010
Bulaga
Neal
Burnett
Quarless
Starks
Wilson

This would be a solid draft, but the players draft here all miss to much time. Bulaga is good, but who knows...haven't seen him play in like 2 yrs. Neal finally stayed healthy last year and played pretty good. Burnett sucks. Quarless, Starks, and Wilson are good role players but not starting material.

2011
Cobb
House
Taylor

Cobb is obviously the best pick. House is not that bad and I would like to see him play a little more. Taylor is a good sp teams player. Sherrod doesn't make the list. Horrible draft overall.


2012
Perry
Worthy
Hayward
Daniels

Perry IMO would be decent if we moved him to DE. I hate him at OLB. Worthy looked okay as a rookie and missed all of last year. Hayward looked like a really good find as a rookie. Daniels looks like a steal. All four of these remaining players have to show up next year for this draft to be solid. Not looking good right now though

2013
Jones
Lacey
Bakhitari
Tretter
Franklin
Hyde
Boyd
Palmer
Dorsey
Barrington

Datone Jones can make this one of TT best drafts if he turns out. Lacey is already a probowler, Bakhitari played pretty well at LT and has room to grow, Tretter might also be a starter as well, Franklin showed he can play against cinny, Hyde played well in the slot this year, Boyd looks to be in the rotation next year. Palmer, Dorsey, and Barrington are to hard to judge at this point.

So this is how I would rank them:

2005, 2009, 2008, 2013, 2006, 2007, 2010, 2012, 2011

2013 can move up past 2009 if Bakhitari and Tretter become salwarts on the line, Datone Jones pans out, and Lacey continues to progress. Franklin and Hyde are also wild cards to be good picks. This draft has good potential. If Jones doesn't pan out, and Tretter doesn't play well, etc. this could fall some. 2007 and 2010 can flip-flop spots and I wouldn't argue - those two drafts are tossups to me.

[Pugger]

If Sherrod can overcome all the time he missed and plays well then 2011 will be a good draft. If Perry, Worthy and Hayward overcome their injuries then 2012 will be a great draft.

Notice the big issue in these drafts? I think these kids can be good players but injuries have derailed their careers so far so it is difficult to know how good or bad they really are. :sad:

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

If Sherrod can overcome all the time he missed and plays well then 2011 will be a good draft. If Perry, Worthy and Hayward overcome their injuries then 2012 will be a great draft.

Notice the big issue in these drafts? I think these kids can be good players but injuries have derailed their careers so far so it is difficult to know how good or bad they really are. :sad:

Overcoming injuries is important it doesn't mean they will turn out to be good players. Perry looks lost at OLB (hate him there), Worthy didn't impress me much as a rookie but its still early.....Sherrod? Even if he is healthy this year you really think he will beat out Bahk? Bahk is 22 and has started 16 games already. If he progresses even more this offseason no way do I see him losing to Sherrod. Sherrod might play out his rookie deal but that's still a first round bust. That draft is all but dead.

[Pugger]

Overcoming injuries is important it doesn't mean they will turn out to be good players. Perry looks lost at OLB (hate him there), Worthy didn't impress me much as a rookie but its still early.....Sherrod? Even if he is healthy this year you really think he will beat out Bahk? Bahk is 22 and has started 16 games already. If he progresses even more this offseason no way do I see him losing to Sherrod. Sherrod might play out his rookie deal but that's still a first round bust. That draft is all but dead.

If a player is injured you can't know if he'll turn out to be a good player until he plays. How can you be so certain Sherrod is a first round bust? I think we should wait and see someone actually play before we declare them a bust. Sure, he could flame out or he could beat out Bahk or he could be a good backup. Bahk played very well but does he have the prototypical size for a tackle? Could David be better inside? Our 2014 offseason workouts and TC will be very interesting indeed. It is rather nice to have all these options, don't you think?

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Well yeah the only way Sherrod is not a bust is if he some how beats out Bahk to start at LT. Even if he is solid depth that is a bust imo. You don't pick a guy in round one to be solid depth. I hope he proves me wrong, but I seriously doubt it.

[3irty1]

At this point I don't think it matters much if Sherrod figures it out. We got nothing out of him for pretty much his entire 5 year first round rookie contract. Even if he figures it out at this point it hardly matters as he'll get market value for his talents, whatever those are.

Its not an honest evaluation to consider guys who did nothing for the Packers like Giacomini a great pick but not guys that busted because of injury. Both should count or neither should but you shouldn't change the lens you view each draft to grade them to fit your narrative then call it "just the facts." The 2010 draft has a lot of injured guys on it but the depth of it more than makes up for it in terms of what we actually got out of the class. That draft made the team incredibly deep and its no surprise that we won the super bowl despite ranking in the top 3 for injuries that year. That draft is littered with superbowl starters, especially if you include Sam Shields. Also, new drafts will never look as good for obvious reasons. Guys like Collins and Bishop wouldn't not have been considered fantastic picks for their first couple of years in the league, if you want to compare apples and oranges you're going to have to extrapolate. Considering how much we've already gotten out of the 2013 draft it looks like a real home run.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

At this point I don't think it matters much if Sherrod figures it out. We got nothing out of him for pretty much his entire 5 year first round rookie contract. Even if he figures it out at this point it hardly matters as he'll get market value for his talents, whatever those are.

Its not an honest evaluation to consider guys who did nothing for the Packers like Giacomini a great pick but not guys that busted because of injury. Both should count or neither should but you shouldn't change the lens you view each draft to grade them to fit your narrative then call it "just the facts." The 2010 draft has a lot of injured guys on it but the depth of it more than makes up for it in terms of what we actually got out of the class. That draft made the team incredibly deep and its no surprise that we won the super bowl despite ranking in the top 3 for injuries that year. That draft is littered with superbowl starters, especially if you include Sam Shields. Also, new drafts will never look as good for obvious reasons. Guys like Collins and Bishop wouldn't not have been considered fantastic picks for their first couple of years in the league, if you want to compare apples and oranges you're going to have to extrapolate. Considering how much we've already gotten out of the 2013 draft it looks like a real home run.

No where in my "narrative" did I say Giacomini was a GREAT pick. I simply listed players that were at least able to play somewhat decently. I thought listing poppinga for example made that pretty obvious. Giving TT some credit for Giacomini is only fair since he is good enough to start on a superbowl team. The fact we cut him just makes that a POST draft mistake but doesn't change the fact he selected a pretty decent player.

And I did give TT credit for injured players, so I'm not sure what you're talking about by "fit my narrative." I listed Bulaga, Starks, Quarless, Bishop, Collins, etc as positive contributors.

What's funny is you ranked his drafts before I did and you made 2007 his worst draft. How could 2007 be worse than 2011? 2011 so far really only added Cobb. You said yourself it doesn't at this point if Sherrod figures out. Major contributors in 2007 draft include Jones, Jackson, Bishop, Crosby, and Hall compared to 2011 that has Cobb, Taylor, and House. Harrell and Sherrod basically cancel out. If you count Crosby that's three starters compared to 1. Unless you think House will come on strong this year (like Bishop year 4), then 2011 is easily TT worst draft. If you want to put 2010 above 2007 I'll give you that, but 2011 would at least need one of Sherrod or House to become starters to have a chance of being better than 2007.

I mentioned in my post that 2013 still has potential to be TT second best draft so I'm not naive to the fact that its still to early to judge. Also I stated 2012 doesn't look good as of right now, but that draft is still not set in stone. Early signs don't look good though. Hayward has been hurt but I gave credit as a good find. I said Daniels is a steal and Worthy showed a little as a rookie. Perry has played enough that I'm comfortable saying I don't like him at OLB. That draft needs Perry to figure it out at OLB or DE soon (going into year 3) and for Worthy to show he can play. If that happens then it will move up higher as a solid draft. But like I said its not looking good so far.....

[run pMc]

Given his injury history, I wouldn't put him at LT. I'd put him at RT and let Bakh and Sherrod battle it out at LT. (Sherrod's injury doesn't make him injury prone. What happened to him would have knocked out anybody.) If Bulaga gets hurt at RT again, you have an experienced guy in Barclay to take his place. If Sherrod plays well enough to beat out Bakh, then you would have to figure out what to do with him. But that would be a nice problem to have.

+1

I think Bulaga should be a RT. I think he'll struggle with speed rushers many LT's face (consider the trouble Bruce Irvin gave him), and we already know he can play RT at an above-average level.
I think Bahktiari will really benefit from having had a full year under fire and come back stronger with an offseason in an NFL weight program. Sherrod would have to beat him out or learn to be a swing tackle. Barclay is decent insurance as well, but I think they'll look at moving him inside or being a RG-RT swing backup.

[run pMc]

At this point I don't think it matters much if Sherrod figures it out. We got nothing out of him for pretty much his entire 5 year first round rookie contract. Even if he figures it out at this point it hardly matters as he'll get market value for his talents, whatever those are.

Its not an honest evaluation to consider guys who did nothing for the Packers like Giacomini a great pick but not guys that busted because of injury. Both should count or neither should but you shouldn't change the lens you view each draft to grade them to fit your narrative then call it "just the facts." The 2010 draft has a lot of injured guys on it but the depth of it more than makes up for it in terms of what we actually got out of the class. That draft made the team incredibly deep and its no surprise that we won the super bowl despite ranking in the top 3 for injuries that year. That draft is littered with superbowl starters, especially if you include Sam Shields. Also, new drafts will never look as good for obvious reasons. Guys like Collins and Bishop wouldn't not have been considered fantastic picks for their first couple of years in the league, if you want to compare apples and oranges you're going to have to extrapolate. Considering how much we've already gotten out of the 2013 draft it looks like a real home run.

I dunno. He had a horrific injury that's cost two years. Never was healthy for a full non-strike offseason. He could surprise and have a Mike Flanagan type-career, he could get beat out by Bahktiari, or he might never fully recover from the injury and get an injury settlement/release a la Harrell. If he can play, having multiple options at tackle is a nice luxury, especially when your QB is one of the highest paid players and need to stay upright to win a SB.

Giacomini was released because he had a bad camp and it was either him or Newhouse. If you look at just last season, it was a bad move; but Newhouse played a full season at LT, and was considered at least high quality backup material.

It's said you need 3 years to evaluate a draft. The 2011 doesn't look that good, and the 2012 draft might be the same. I think 2013 looks pretty good so far.
Re; 2012, Perry has only played 17 games, and a lot of those were with a wrist cast or a bad foot/ankle. This topic mentioned experienced players and Perry is one that needs a few healthy games before we can call him a bust or not. Not a big fan of Worthy. Hayward and Daniels keep the draft class from looking awful after losing McMillian, Manning, Datko and Coleman.

[Patler]

I dunno. He had a horrific injury that's cost two years. Never was healthy for a full non-strike offseason. He could surprise and have a Mike Flanagan type-career, he could get beat out by Bahktiari, or he might never fully recover from the injury and get an injury settlement/release a la Harrell. If he can play, having multiple options at tackle is a nice luxury, especially when your QB is one of the highest paid players and need to stay upright to win a SB.

Giacomini was released because he had a bad camp and it was either him or Newhouse. If you look at just last season, it was a bad move; but Newhouse played a full season at LT, and was considered at least high quality backup material.

It's said you need 3 years to evaluate a draft. The 2011 doesn't look that good, and the 2012 draft might be the same. I think 2013 looks pretty good so far.
Re; 2012, Perry has only played 17 games, and a lot of those were with a wrist cast or a bad foot/ankle. This topic mentioned experienced players and Perry is one that needs a few healthy games before we can call him a bust or not. Not a big fan of Worthy. Hayward and Daniels keep the draft class from looking awful after losing McMillian, Manning, Datko and Coleman.

Not saying you do, but in case anyone thinks the Packers gave up on Giacomini too soon, keep in mind that he spent two full seasons with the Packers, then had a miserable camp forcing the Packer to put him on the practice squad in 2010. I'm not sure he was ever active for a game during 2008 or 2009. If he was, it was few enough games that he was still eligible for PS in his third season, 2010. The Packers hadn't given up on him, they just needed someone who was more ready to play in 2010, so they signed him to their practice squad. Seattle signed him to their regular roster in late September, then released him in October and signed him to their practice squad. The resigned him to the regular roster again, released him again and signed him back to their practice squad in November. In December he was back on their regular roster yet again. Clearly, they didn't think he was ready that year either.

In 2010 Seattle also ahd EDS and Barbre.

[woodbuck27]

2005
Rodgers
Collins
Murphy
Poppinga

Hall of frame QB and should have been hall of frame FS. That makes this the best by far. Murphy I feel would have been a solid pick esp playing with Favre and Rodgers. Poppinga was a decent stop gap for a few years.


2006
Hawk
Colledge
Jennings
Splitz
Blackmon
Jolly

Jennings and Jolly were great picks. Jennings played a major role in us winning the superbowl and Jolly was a steal in the 6th. Splitz and Colledge were decent stop gaps and Colledge even started the year we won the superbowl. Hawk is Hawk. We wanted better at number 5 but it could have been worse. Blackmon was a good return guy/role player.

2007
Jones
Jackson
Hall
Bishop
Crosby

Harrell ruined this draft. Jones was a great pick in round 3. Jackson was a good 3rd down back. Hall was a good 6th round pick - played fb and sp teams. Bishop was a steal in round 6 and Crosby turned out to be our kicker of the future. Had Harrell turned out, this would have been a good draft...he made it average.

2008
Nelson
Finley
Sitton
Giacomini
Flynn
Swain

Nelson was a great pick. Finley was a steal in round 3 and Sitton was a even bigger steal in round 4. Giacomini actually starts for Settle (maybe we gave up on him to early?). Flynn is a good backup QB that we found in round 7. Swain actually played in the superbowl so I'll mention him. This is a very underrated draft by TT. He had some bad misses, but go to round 3 and 4 and he picked two of the best players in both rounds.



2009
Raji
Matthews
Lang
Wynn
Jones

Raji, Matthews, and Lang all turned out to be solid starters. Matthews and Raji have both made the probowl. Wynn was a decent top gap and Jones is starting some how.


2010
Bulaga
Neal
Burnett
Quarless
Starks
Wilson

This would be a solid draft, but the players draft here all miss to much time. Bulaga is good, but who knows...haven't seen him play in like 2 yrs. Neal finally stayed healthy last year and played pretty good. Burnett sucks. Quarless, Starks, and Wilson are good role players but not starting material.

2011
Cobb
House
Taylor

Cobb is obviously the best pick. House is not that bad and I would like to see him play a little more. Taylor is a good sp teams player. Sherrod doesn't make the list. Horrible draft overall.


2012
Perry
Worthy
Hayward
Daniels

Perry IMO would be decent if we moved him to DE. I hate him at OLB. Worthy looked okay as a rookie and missed all of last year. Hayward looked like a really good find as a rookie. Daniels looks like a steal. All four of these remaining players have to show up next year for this draft to be solid. Not looking good right now though

2013
Jones
Lacey
Bakhitari
Tretter
Franklin
Hyde
Boyd
Palmer
Dorsey
Barrington

Datone Jones can make this one of TT best drafts if he turns out. Lacey is already a probowler, Bakhitari played pretty well at LT and has room to grow, Tretter might also be a starter as well, Franklin showed he can play against cinny, Hyde played well in the slot this year, Boyd looks to be in the rotation next year. Palmer, Dorsey, and Barrington are to hard to judge at this point.

So this is how I would rank them:

2005, 2009, 2008, 2013, 2006, 2007, 2010, 2012, 2011

2013 can move up past 2009 if Bakhitari and Tretter become salwarts on the line, Datone Jones pans out, and Lacey continues to progress. Franklin and Hyde are also wild cards to be good picks. This draft has good potential. If Jones doesn't pan out, and Tretter doesn't play well, etc. this could fall some. 2007 and 2010 can flip-flop spots and I wouldn't argue - those two drafts are tossups to me.

A lot of work there ..... solid job

Repped

[bobblehead]

Overcoming injuries is important it doesn't mean they will turn out to be good players. Perry looks lost at OLB (hate him there), Worthy didn't impress me much as a rookie but its still early.....Sherrod? Even if he is healthy this year you really think he will beat out Bahk? Bahk is 22 and has started 16 games already. If he progresses even more this offseason no way do I see him losing to Sherrod. Sherrod might play out his rookie deal but that's still a first round bust. That draft is all but dead.

You seriously over rate Bahk. He was not even quite mediocre as an LT. He would need to take BIG strides to become above average, and while that is possible, he doesn't appear to have the skill set to make it happen. Sherrod is the only guy on the roster that moves(moved) like an elite LT. That may never pan out, but if I were betting on Sherrod vs. Bahk as the LT of the future I will still bet on Sherrod. I will go so far as to say that Bahk will NOT be the LT next season if Sherrod or Bulaga stay healthy.

[mraynrand]

You seriously over rate Bahk. He was not even quite mediocre as an LT.

I disagree. Bacteria was thoroughly mediocre. In related news, people should look at the first half performance of Bulaga against Seattle in 2012 before they say that guy will ever be elite.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

You seriously over rate Bahk. He was not even quite mediocre as an LT. He would need to take BIG strides to become above average, and while that is possible, he doesn't appear to have the skill set to make it happen. Sherrod is the only guy on the roster that moves(moved) like an elite LT. That may never pan out, but if I were betting on Sherrod vs. Bahk as the LT of the future I will still bet on Sherrod. I will go so far as to say that Bahk will NOT be the LT next season if Sherrod or Bulaga stay healthy.

And you know that from the 8.3 snaps he played back in 2011....

[3irty1]

I'm with MD on this one. Bahk should is 22, 290- lbs, a rookie, and already a LT you can win with. The guy is a major find and my personal favorite to win become the victor of the tackle logjam.

[Bretsky]

I'm drinking the Kool Aide with Backman as well; it would be an extreme shockeer to me if Sherry ever starts for us.

Back was one of the suprirse finds in the NFL Draft last year; he got beat up by some elite pass rushers but beat down the average to below average guys. We can win with that and use a RB to help him out when needed. He's a frickin scrapper too.

He was mentioned on NFL Network as one of the top value finds in the draft last year and one of the ten most valuaable rookies to their team last year

[pbmax]

Even if you think Sherrod is done or not worth the spot to find out, Bach has some major improvement to make in his pass protection. He wasn't Barclay, where anyone with speed or a counter move could get past him, but "the old wig" (http://www.ipl.org/div/mushist/bar/bach.html) gave up the outside too frequently to good, big ends. He can also be bulled. Adding weight and strength at the risk of his hamstrings (a Packer specialty) might solve the bull rush problem.

Replays of Bach show the disadvantage of being a very good player but being a little smaller than ideal to your competition. On the plus side, his technique is good, his feet more than adequate and he does not give up on a play. In fact, if you stop the tape before Newhouse stops, they look similar. To be fair, Newhouse clearly worked on that for this season and didn't end so many plays so early.

Sherrod has the opposite problem. He can catch anything with his size and you aren't getting around that planet. Problem is, he has not been on the field for enough reps for the coaches to trust him.

If you ask what I prefer, a health question/obvious talent versus a reliable, hard working undersized guy, my answer is that I like neither option.

My preference is that Sherrod win out because better talent will help the entire offense. But he has to be available.

[Bretsky]

Even if you think Sherrod is done or not worth the spot to find out, Bach has some major improvement to make in his pass protection. He wasn't Barclay, where anyone with speed or a counter move could get past him, but "the old wig" (http://www.ipl.org/div/mushist/bar/bach.html) gave up the outside too frequently to good, big ends. He can also be bulled. Adding weight and strength at the risk of his hamstrings (a Packer specialty) might solve the bull rush problem.

Replays of Bach show the disadvantage of being a very good player but being a little smaller than ideal to your competition. On the plus side, his technique is good, his feet more than adequate and he does not give up on a play. In fact, if you stop the tape before Newhouse stops, they look similar. To be fair, Newhouse clearly worked on that for this season and didn't end so many plays so early.

Sherrod has the opposite problem. He can catch anything with his size and you aren't getting around that planet. Problem is, he has not been on the field for enough reps for the coaches to trust him.

If you ask what I prefer, a health question/obvious talent versus a reliable, hard working undersized guy, my answer is that I like neither option.

My preference is that Sherrod win out because better talent will help the entire offense. But he has to be available.


I don't think Tauscher tore it up year one either; physically he was no phenom but he got the job done. Maybe Bach will turn out to be Tauscher II

[woodbuck27]

You seriously over rate Bahk. He was not even quite mediocre as an LT. He would need to take BIG strides to become above average, and while that is possible, he doesn't appear to have the skill set to make it happen. Sherrod is the only guy on the roster that moves(moved) like an elite LT. That may never pan out, but if I were betting on Sherrod vs. Bahk as the LT of the future I will still bet on Sherrod. I will go so far as to say that Bahk will NOT be the LT next season if Sherrod or Bulaga stay healthy.

It sure appears as if Tackle Derek Sherrod may be just a:

mirage. I sure want to be wrong.

[denverYooper]

I'm with MD on this one. Bahk should is 22, 290- lbs, a rookie, and already a LT you can win with. The guy is a major find and my personal favorite to win become the victor of the tackle logjam.

I'm really interested to see what happens with him after an offseason in the weight room and he strikes me as the kind of guy who won't take his opportunity to be a starter for the future #1 offense in the NFL for granted.

[Pugger]

I disagree. Bacteria was thoroughly mediocre. In related news, people should look at the first half performance of Bulaga against Seattle in 2012 before they say that guy will ever be elite.

So a guy has a terrible half in a game where we actually came back and should have won will never be elite?

[Pugger]

Even if you think Sherrod is done or not worth the spot to find out, Bach has some major improvement to make in his pass protection. He wasn't Barclay, where anyone with speed or a counter move could get past him, but "the old wig" (http://www.ipl.org/div/mushist/bar/bach.html) gave up the outside too frequently to good, big ends. He can also be bulled. Adding weight and strength at the risk of his hamstrings (a Packer specialty) might solve the bull rush problem.

Replays of Bach show the disadvantage of being a very good player but being a little smaller than ideal to your competition. On the plus side, his technique is good, his feet more than adequate and he does not give up on a play. In fact, if you stop the tape before Newhouse stops, they look similar. To be fair, Newhouse clearly worked on that for this season and didn't end so many plays so early.

Sherrod has the opposite problem. He can catch anything with his size and you aren't getting around that planet. Problem is, he has not been on the field for enough reps for the coaches to trust him.

If you ask what I prefer, a health question/obvious talent versus a reliable, hard working undersized guy, my answer is that I like neither option.

My preference is that Sherrod win out because better talent will help the entire offense. But he has to be available.

I want to actually see him play more than a handful of snaps before I declare him a bust. This is going to be a big offseason for him.