Jermichael Finley: What might the Green Bay Packers do?

[woodbuck27]

http://lombardiave.com/2014/01/31/jermichael-finley-might-green-bay-packers/

Jermichael Finley: What might the Green Bay Packers do?
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By: Ray Rivard - Jan 31st, 2014 at 4:17 pm

Jermichael Finley, the Green Bay Packers tight end whose career was brought into question this past season after suffering a severe neck injury, told profootballtalk.com today that he expects his doctor to clear him for contact within the next month and indicated that he was confident he would be playing football once again in 2014. Fr. LINK

Please Click on LINK for the rest of the story.


GO PACK GO !

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

I would sign Finley if he's cleared and accepts something close to a 4 year/25 type contract. He's still young and has a lot of talent. Still Draft Ebron is round one :)......Our own Gronk/Hernandez combo.

[woodbuck27]

I would sign Finley if he's cleared and accepts something close to a 4 year/25 type contract. He's still young and has a lot of talent. Still Draft Ebron is round one :)......Our own Gronk/Hernandez combo.

Hi PaCkFan_n_MD;

It's great to see your back here a lot more.

GO PACKERS . . . GO PACK GO !

[red]

well if finley is cleared and green bay resigns him, then the packers need to get on the phone ASAP with nick collins and try and get him back

cause its the same damn injury, right? same disks involved and all, right?

[call_me_ishmael]

Finley won't be back. He isn't reliable. Some guys just get hurt constantly. He's one of them. Plus, he stirs things up more than the Packers like.

[3irty1]

Its the same injury but not at all the same. Nick Collins wasn't medically cleared because of stenosis (genetically narrow spinal cord recess). Sean Richardson just came back from it as well. John Jolly may also have to. The reason Finley won't be back is because he gets a tax free 10 million dollar insurance policy to never take another snap. A lot of things would have to go his way for him to earn that much money by resuming his career instead.

[smuggler]

Collins' neck injury required vertebral fusion because of damaged cartilage disks in his spine. The problem was caused, as 3irty says, by the combination of a nasty blow to the crown of his head combined with the stenosis in his neck.

Collins never suffered spinal cord bruising that put him into an ICU.

Finley did not have damage to any cartilage disks, but had elective spinal fusion anyway to try and prevent a similar future trauma from bruising his spinal cord a second time.

The way I see it, Finley's injury was pretty much just a case of wrong place at the wrong time. While I suspect Green Bay will not take a gamble on him, he doesn't have the stenosis that led teams to basically blackball Collins for his own sake.

As long as he can secure a contract bonus that surpasses his insurance payout, he'll be playing next year. Just, as I speculate, not with us. :/

On the plus side.... COMP PICK!

[Teamcheez1]

Finley is already foaming at the mouth to the press. On One hand he says he wants to be a Packer for life, and then he immediately talks about all the free agency opportunities that may be out there.

I guess we can bring him in for a physical and go from there, but I'm not optimistic that we will, or we should, consider paying him any more than around $4M a year as previously mentioned.

[red]

Finley is already foaming at the mouth to the press. On One hand he says he wants to be a Packer for life, and then he immediately talks about all the free agency opportunities that may be out there.

I guess we can bring him in for a physical and go from there, but I'm not optimistic that we will, or we should, consider paying him any more than around $4M a year as previously mentioned.

even if he was completely healthy, i wouldn't want to pay him much more then that

i just don't thinks he's anywhere near as good as he's made out to be

[Carolina_Packer]

even if he was completely healthy, i wouldn't want to pay him much more then that

i just don't thinks he's anywhere near as good as he's made out to be

Totally agree with this. He is like a cookie that looks like it has chocolate chips and when you bite into it, it's really dates (thanks, Grandma!) It's still sweet, just not as satisfying.

[bobblehead]

If you can land him for $3 million I would take him back (APRH). Otherwise its time to move forward with a TE that can actually block.

[mraynrand]

Totally agree with this. He is like a cookie that looks like it has chocolate chips and when you bite into it, it's really dates (thanks, Grandma!) It's still sweet, just not as satisfying.

Pumpkin pie that turns out to be pecan!

[pbmax]

The injuries are not even located in the space. We have this documented somewhere where our crack Search Function is currently unable to locate it, but here is Chmura's version of the different injuries:


Mark "Hot Tub" Chmura reported today on the radio that he talked to Finley Sunday before the game.

Finley told him he is having surgery this week (Hot Tub was confused about the exact date but thought it was Thursday) for a cervical fusion for a herniated disk I believe.

Finley's bad disk is a C3-C4. Not as bad as Collins 2-3, but worse than Chewy's 4-5.

Chmura doesn't think Finley will play for the Packers again.

[pbmax]

Cannot find independently reported confirm of which discs Collins fused. Here is the most detailed info at the time, but reading it makes it seem that we would learn the discs later.

http://packerrats.com/showthread.php?22778-Nick-Collins-out-for-the-Year/page8&highlight=collins

[Bretsky]

This sparks a debate. We have one that woudl pay Fin 3MIL and another 6M per year. I think he's looking for a payday, I fear. I think I'd fall around the 4MIL per year range...let him move on....and draft a TE in round 1-3. I'll go with Ebron.....or Amaro or CJ in round two and roll with that. If Finley goes......ya might try a little harder to sign JJ...but I think we're ok losing both as well

[Striker]

I'd pass on Finley. He's oft injured, will be looking for a payday, and you've got some nice TE prospects on the roster (Bostick) and there are a few nice options in the draft.

[woodbuck27]

If you can land him for $3 million I would take him back (APRH). Otherwise its time to move forward with a TE that can actually block.

JF will be looking for around 6-7 Million or a 4 Year $25 million should lock him up.

That's not going down in Green Bay.

He received enough from the Packer coffers.

He's history.

[Carolina_Packer]

JF will be looking for around 6-7 Million or a 4 Year $25 million should lock him up.

That's not going down in Green Bay.

He received enough from the Packer coffers.

He's history.

I agree with you.

What if this situation plays out...Finley tests free agency and only gets 1 year flyers from other teams wanting to test his health concerns and not spend much money? Assuming he's on good terms with Packer management, do you think TT should make him the same kind of offer to stay in Green Bay one more year to see if he's OK?

Would you rather just be done with him and his potential?

For one reason or another (mostly on him) he has always been a tease of a talent, and never the dominant guy we thought he would become after his break-out performance in his second year.

[Jimx29]

https://twitter.com/jasonjwilde/status/436940248136708096

wth can't they just fess up and tell us what exactly was done? :bs:

[Joemailman]

https://twitter.com/jasonjwilde/status/436940248136708096

wth can't they just fess up and tell us what exactly was done? :bs:

Maybe they feel that his medical information isn't really any of out business unless he chooses to tell us.

[run pMc]

If he passed the medical, I'd be ok with a 1-2 year deal. Maybe a 2 year with team/player options so he could opt out if he way outperformed -or- GB could cut him with no cap hit if he underperformed. I don't see JF going for that unless there's little/no interest...and even then he might just retire and take the $10M. If he does sign with GB they still need to start looking for other options at TE. I think Ebron will be gone, and honestly I'd rather they look at BDPA in R1 (Pryor, Nix, etc.). They can find someone in R3 and bring back Quarless for a fraction of what Finley will want...but they probably won't have a "playmaker" at TE.

It will take some convincing that he's healthy enough to play, and more convincing that he'll be the same player if/when he comes back.
I think he's done in GB.

[gbgary]

if the price is right...sign him up.

[hoosier]

Its the same injury but not at all the same. Nick Collins wasn't medically cleared because of stenosis (genetically narrow spinal cord recess). Sean Richardson just came back from it as well. John Jolly may also have to. The reason Finley won't be back is because he gets a tax free 10 million dollar insurance policy to never take another snap. A lot of things would have to go his way for him to earn that much money by resuming his career instead.

If Finley were planning to retire I doubt very much he has the spinal fusion surgery.

[pbmax]

Hot Tub Chmura's reporting career hits another pothole the size of a Vanagon.

[Brandon494]

I'm on the fence with this one, the guy has talent but he just can't seem to stay healthy. I think its time to move on and draft a TE in the 2nd or 3rd round, resign Quarless, and spend more on defense. Who knows though, maybe with the recent injury his price drops then maybe I can see them bringing him back.

[gbgary]

evidently the TEs sucked at the combine today. this may drive his price up.

[red]

to me, finley isn't worth more then 3 or 4 million a year, IF HEALTHY

and now with the injuries, i wouldn't even want to pay that

its now been 6 full seasons, and we're still waiting for him to reach his potential and become the player we all hoped he would be. and i would say, that at no point in those 6 years has he looked like the unstoppable beast that can just take over a game like some people on here think he can be

[mraynrand]

i would say, that at no point in those 6 years has he looked like the unstoppable beast that can just take over a game like some people on here think he can be

I disagree with this point - he's had several beast games, and some good ones. I got annoyed last year when Rodgers had to keep lining him up in the right spot, and some of his misses on blocking were unforgivable. Even his injury resulted from stupidity. So I still like him and want him back, but not for a lot of cash. But if they let him leave they need a TE who can block and receive and Andrew Scoreless is nowhere near a sure bet.

[red]

I disagree with this point - he's had several beast games, and some good ones. I got annoyed last year when Rodgers had to keep lining him up in the right spot, and some of his misses on blocking were unforgivable. Even his injury resulted from stupidity. So I still like him and want him back, but not for a lot of cash. But if they let him leave they need a TE who can block and receive and Andrew Scoreless is nowhere near a sure bet.

see, we're talking about the end of that one season, right? he put together a handful of his best games

so he managed to string together 4 or 5 "good" games, out of 70 games that he's played in his career

to me thats just a hot steak, an abnormality

and you say would need to replace him with a guy who can catch and block. i'd say finley is below average as a blocker, and he drops almost as much as he catches

shouldn't be too hard to replace that

[smuggler]

He's always going to be one of those "if only" players, unfortunately.

[woodbuck27]

I agree with you.

What if this situation plays out...Finley tests free agency and only gets 1 year flyers from other teams wanting to test his health concerns and not spend much money? Assuming he's on good terms with Packer management, do you think TT should make him the same kind of offer to stay in Green Bay one more year to see if he's OK?

Would you rather just be done with him and his potential?

For one reason or another (mostly on him) he has always been a tease of a talent, and never the dominant guy we thought he would become after his break-out performance in his second year.

It's hard to say what TT is doing in terms of any offers to say even Sam Shields. James Jones seems to be getting zero interest. Even our center position is up in the air and Evan Dietrich - Smith had a successful season last. OLB/DE hybrid Mike Neal is another that I feel deserves being returned.

I hate to imagine us without Sam Shields and without Sam Shields nothing touches Tramone Williams. TW becomes our stud CB on paper.

Time is running out with just over two weeks to the start of Free Agency. I want James Jones and Sam Shields and ED-Smith back and as usual it's so so quiet. Things happen and we hear this or that was offered but the TT and MM "Draft and Developmental Program" takes another hit.

What good is any promotion of this valued program if it doesn't end up maintaining those best proven to return. Sam Shields, Mike Neal and ED-S qualify as Packers who should be retained by my estimate. My gut feeling is that James Jones doesn't end his career in Green Bay.

GO PACKERS !

[mraynrand]

see, we're talking about the end of that one season, right? he put together a handful of his best games

so he managed to string together 4 or 5 "good" games, out of 70 games that he's played in his career

to me thats just a hot steak, an abnormality

and you say would need to replace him with a guy who can catch and block. i'd say finley is below average as a blocker, and he drops almost as much as he catches

shouldn't be too hard to replace that

I'm saying his collection of dominant games came across his career. There weren't a lot, but he wasn't always featured - and too often he didn't know what he was doing; Rodgers lost confidence in him I believe. The thing that made his so tantalizing was the mismatch - size over DBs and Speed over LBs. But if he can't catch, and can't remember what he's supposed to do, it doesn't help you.

The Packers have plenty of guys who can catch the ball.

About 'replacing' Finley - I don't want just another guy to catch - you need a guy who can catch and block, otherwise, he's just a glorified receiver, and the defense doesn't have to worry about him/can exploit him in the run game and/or in pass protection. Need a complete TE. Especially since they are expecting to run the ball more.

[pbmax]

I don't recall Rodgers lining him up much last year, except when they brought him inside to block first before going out to his route.

I am much more dispirited by his complete fanning on interior routes. He is always jumping and falling out there rather than rising up to catch the ball. Someone, somewhere said Finley had told Rodgers he preferred crossing routes rather than to head up the seams. And that seemed confirmation he was looking not to get hit.

Then all that tentative play got him injured while crossing the middle and dragging a DB behind him. He just seems to play scared now. I normally dislike trying to read a players mind, but that seems the only logical explanation.

[MadtownPacker]

Finley not being able to block, lining up incorrectly, tweeting stupid shit, publicly airing issue with Rodgers, and just being a MFer would all be easily forgivable if he did the one thing he is suppose to do. Catch the fucking ball consistently! But he doesn't and I believe he never will.

Send him to the Gulag....
http://www.crossfitnmb.com/uploads/northmiamibeach/image/blog%20photos/Winter%20Wod%202/mad_max_beyond_thunderdome.jpg

[Freak Out]

Man....I am working to get MTP into the green again with posts like that.....its a long haul though.

[mraynrand]

Man....I am working to get MTP into the green again with posts like that.....its a long haul though.

Freak out stands above all other football experts

[MadtownPacker]

Man....I am working to get MTP into the green again with posts like that.....its a long haul though.
Sorry Charlie, my rep was set to a sewer level so that my feelings could never be hurt by those giving negative rep. :lol:

[run pMc]

Finley's drop rate isn't as bad as people think, but the timing of some drops is what they remember. I agree with pbmax that he's not going to play any less scared. I think the concussion that weirded out his kid also got to him and after this injury he might develop alligator arms. He's what...26 now? Agree many are still waiting for him to put it all together and really dominate like a Top 5 TE (some will say he's not a top 10 TE), and maybe it's time to look elsewhere given he's had several seasons and injuries.

[Freak Out]

As much as I would like to still be driving the Big Fin bus.....he forced it off the road at gunpoint awhile back.

[red]

Finley's drop rate isn't as bad as people think, but the timing of some drops is what they remember. I agree with pbmax that he's not going to play any less scared. I think the concussion that weirded out his kid also got to him and after this injury he might develop alligator arms. He's what...26 now? Agree many are still waiting for him to put it all together and really dominate like a Top 5 TE (some will say he's not a top 10 TE), and maybe it's time to look elsewhere given he's had several seasons and injuries.

i think his drop rate is actually worse then people think

i don't know how the nfl defines a drop. theres been times where he might have 3 clear drops in a game (where the ball hits him in both hands and still pops out) yet the next day the stat sheet will say he had one drop

2 or 3 years ago, he had a horrible start to the year where he dropped almost everything that came his way. in a 3 game stretch i remember having a double digit drop count for him. yet the stat folks were saying he had like 3 drops. the guys on TV would talk about how he had a lot of drops with like 5 or 6 on the year, and i would just laugh, because the number was actually 3 or 4 times higher then they were saying it is

[mraynrand]

As much as I would like to still be driving the Big Fin bus.....he forced it off the road at gunpoint awhile back.

you're just jealous that he stole away your Muskie Queen.

[3irty1]

Finley's drop rate is as bad as advertised IMO. There is no sugar coating it no matter how you define a drop. What I will say is that his drops are definitely because of his head and not his hands which means there is always a chance they get fixed with improved focus and concentration. His hands themselves are as soft as any in the NFL.

[Mazzin]

He has always seemed like to tease to me. The guy has all the physical tools in the world, but his head doesn't help his talent. Always feel like we are waiting for him to blossom, reminds me of Robert Ferguson, I remember a fluff peice about his lasic surgery, and we all thought "oh this will be it" but he never was more than a tease, which is the same way i feel about JF. Although I do feel he is HEADS and SHOULDERS better than anything we currently have at the T.E. position so if he can be had at a bargain I'm all for it. Otherwise, see ya later.

Side note, the patriots are known for trying out troubled people, and checkered pasts, is it even possible they bring him in. He would be an outstanding Aaron Herandez LITE, I think brady would love him, and he would kill it, and all of us would be on here saying that it was a mistake for letting him go. Poor Teddy, in our eyes he can never do right.

[mraynrand]

^^^ nice to see you Mazz, but please refrain from comparing Finley to The Fraud. Despite his shortcomings, Finley doesn't deserve that!

[red]

:grin:

someone needs to get a hold of B, asap

[Zool]

He would be an outstanding Aaron Herandez LITE, I think brady would love him, and he would kill it

Easy now. Don't go making predictions about that sort of thing.

[red]

Easy now. Don't go making predictions about that sort of thing.

he does seem to be at about that same level of stupid

[pbmax]

^^^ nice to see you Mazz, but please refrain from comparing Finley to The Fraud. Despite his shortcomings, Finley doesn't deserve that!

Mazzin is Bretsky!

[red]

Mazzin is Bretsky!

don't ruin the dream for the rest of us

NO, mazzin is a super hot chick.

period

now if we could just get packer super fan ashlynn brook to sign up and start posting here we'd be all set

[Freak Out]

now if we could just get packer super fan ashlynn brook to sign up and start posting here we'd be all set

We'd never leave the GC.

[Bretsky]

:grin:

someone needs to get a hold of B, asap


BACK.....MAZZIN.....where have ya been ????

[Fritz]

I think Finley is damaged goods, and not just physically. He seems gun shy now, and that isn't going to play in the NFL. Think Robert Ferguson after he got hit over the middle.

I think you just have to let the guy go. I know MM loves the guy, but he's been almost living up to his potential for years now.

[Smidgeon]

I think Finley is damaged goods, and not just physically. He seems gun shy now, and that isn't going to play in the NFL. Think Robert Ferguson after he got hit over the middle.

I think you just have to let the guy go. I know MM loves the guy, but he's been almost living up to his potential for years now.

I think you nailed it on the damaged goods part. But there was about a season's worth of games (end of 2009, beginning of 2010) where he was utterly dominating: running past defenders, jump balls in the end zones, impossible catches with defenders hanging onto his arms, chip blocks that leveled the DEs... But he's never been the same since the ACL. That's too bad since he was really good up until then.

[red]

I think you nailed it on the damaged goods part. But there was about a season's worth of games (end of 2009, beginning of 2010) where he was utterly dominating: running past defenders, jump balls in the end zones, impossible catches with defenders hanging onto his arms, chip blocks that leveled the DEs... But he's never been the same since the ACL. That's too bad since he was really good up until then.

see, this is where i think people are getting confused. the legend of finley is much bigger ten his actual performance

for one, he's never been dominate. his "career game" was in 2009 when he had 159 yards and no td's in the playoffs. he's had a total of 4, 100 yard games in his career, none since 2010

that stretch of late 2009-early 2010. the last 5 weeks of 2009 and first 3 games of 2010. in those 9 games, including the 1 playoff game, he had 496 yards and 4 td's. stretch his career period out to over a full season (55 yards per game during his beast streak) and he would have had 881 yards and 7 or 8 td's

in 2009, those numbers would have ranked him 7th for TE's in yards and 4th-7th for td's. and thats taking his hot streak and spreading it out for a whole season vs guys regular season numbers

good numbers, but no where near dominate or elite

i think the reason why people feel that he looked so "dominate" during that time was because he was just so shitty the rest of his career

he's been "good" at best, but never dominate imo

yet he has been paid like the top TE in the NFL

[red]

it should also not go unmentioned that the year he tore his ACL and only played 5 games early on, was the same year that we got hot, went deep into the playoffs, and won the super bowl

all without him

[Patler]

see, this is where i think people are getting confused. the legend of finley is much bigger ten his actual performance

for one, he's never been dominate. his "career game" was in 2009 when he had 159 yards and no td's in the playoffs. he's had a total of 4, 100 yard games in his career, none since 2010

that stretch of late 2009-early 2010. the last 5 weeks of 2009 and first 3 games of 2010. in those 9 games, including the 1 playoff game, he had 496 yards and 4 td's. stretch his career period out to over a full season (55 yards per game during his beast streak) and he would have had 881 yards and 7 or 8 td's

in 2009, those numbers would have ranked him 7th for TE's in yards and 4th-7th for td's. and thats taking his hot streak and spreading it out for a whole season vs guys regular season numbers

good numbers, but no where near dominate or elite

i think the reason why people feel that he looked so "dominate" during that time was because he was just so shitty the rest of his career

he's been "good" at best, but never dominate imo

yet he has been paid like the top TE in the NFL

Have to agree with Red on this one. Any player can have a spectacular game every now and then, but that doesn't make him dominant even for a time. Finley has been a good receiving tight end, but never a great one.

It's easy to be confused by his raw ability, and his theatrics and bravado can make you think he has accomplished more than he has.

As for his drops, I was looking at an article earlier that I wanted to link, but was called away before I posted, and now I can't come up with the same article. For the last bunch of years, they had Finley at a combined drop rate of about 10%, which I believe made him the 3rd or 4th worst TE over that time frame. To me, it matters little if he catches 55-60 a year, if you can't rely on him to make a catch in a crucial situation. Too often, those are the ones he drops.

His ability as a blocker is a negative, not making up for any deficiencies as a receiver.

All that being said, I would very much welcome him back at a contract a lot lower than he had the last two years, but still higher than a run-of-the-mill TE.

Hope springs eternal.

[mraynrand]

Any player can have a spectacular game every now and then

sure, even Travis Jervey ran for over a hundred yards once. Finley's dominance isn't about whether he can have a great game here and there, it's what he actually is capable of doing on the field. If Jervey played up to his potential, he'd have had two or three spectacular games in his career - but no one would be mistaken that this was anything other than a marginal player having his sporadic 'great' game.. If Finley played to his potential, he'd have 20 of those by now (if he played in a less talented receiving corps APRH, perhaps 30). The maybe 5-7 dominant games he played showed you what he was capable of, and the fact that he didn't do it more is the reason you keep hanging on and hanging on waiting for that consistency that never comes.

[Patler]

sure, even Travis Jervey ran for over a hundred yards once. Finley's dominance isn't about whether he can have a great game here and there, it's what he actually is capable of doing on the field. If Jervey played up to his potential, he'd have had two or three spectacular games in his career - but no one would be mistaken that this was anything other than a marginal player having his sporadic 'great' game.. If Finley played to his potential, he'd have 20 of those by now (if he played in a less talented receiving corps APRH, perhaps 30). The maybe 5-7 dominant games he played showed you what he was capable of, and the fact that he didn't do it more is the reason you keep hanging on and hanging on waiting for that consistency that never comes.

But there comes a time when potential is meaningless, only actual performance counts. It's time to pay Finley based on actual performance, not potential.

[red]

sure, even Travis Jervey ran for over a hundred yards once. Finley's dominance isn't about whether he can have a great game here and there, it's what he actually is capable of doing on the field. If Jervey played up to his potential, he'd have had two or three spectacular games in his career - but no one would be mistaken that this was anything other than a marginal player having his sporadic 'great' game.. If Finley played to his potential, he'd have 20 of those by now (if he played in a less talented receiving corps APRH, perhaps 30). The maybe 5-7 dominant games he played showed you what he was capable of, and the fact that he didn't do it more is the reason you keep hanging on and hanging on waiting for that consistency that never comes.

no no, not 5-7 dominate game

1 dominate game, the playoff game against arizona, 1 very good game (125 yards and a couple TD's i think), then he had 5-7 "good" games (85-115)

and we're still talking about finley in terms of potential, its been 6 seasons. at what point can do we lower the bar that he'll never get to and say "potential reached?"

[Patler]

no no, not 5-7 dominate game

1 dominate game, the playoff game against arizona, 1 very good game (125 yards and a couple TD's i think), then he had 5-7 "good" games (85-115)

and we're still talking about finley in terms of potential, its been 6 seasons. at what point can we say do we lower the bar that he'll never get to and say "potential reached?"

Yup, how often do we discuss, and wait for the "potential" of a 6 year veteran who has been the preferred starter for 5 of those years? Heck, after 6 years we are usually discussing how soon before the inevitable downward slide begins, because half his career, even if he has a long career, is done. (Cue the "but he is still very young" argument for rebuttal.)

We are weighing the "potential" of a guy entering his 7th season against the certainty of his too frequent drops that were a concern when he was drafted, the certainty of his having never quite wowed anyone the way we hoped, and the certainty of his frequent injuries.

[mraynrand]

But there comes a time when potential is meaningless, only actual performance counts. It's time to pay Finley based on actual performance, not potential.

sure, I agree

[mraynrand]

no no, not 5-7 dominate game

1 dominate game, the playoff game against arizona, 1 very good game (125 yards and a couple TD's i think), then he had 5-7 "good" games (85-115)

and we're still talking about finley in terms of potential, its been 6 seasons. at what point can we say do we lower the bar that he'll never get to and say "potential reached?"

it's not just yards, there were several games with multiple TDs (i think two against Chicago) and 'go to' success. Hell, I'd call the Cleveland game dominant, until he killed his career. I think the Redskins game when he first got hurt he was on path to a dominant game too. Some of that depends on your definition. i'm just saying you don't have to have most of the offense go through you to have a dominant game.

Still, Finley shot himself in the foot and that ruined his chances to get more touches (Rodgers losing confidence in him), but some of his reduction in targets came from having a lot of other targets.

Bottom line for me: Finley reached his potential in that he's able to put up monster games, but it doesn't happen often enough (say 1/3 of what I expected). Some (less than 1/3?) of that isn't his fault however.

[Mazzin]

BACK.....MAZZIN.....where have ya been ????
I never left knucklehead! I'm always lurking, but you guys are much more knowledgable than me when it comes to our beloved packers, hell more entertaining to. Oh yea, the other thing is when I post I get called out for being another member of the board. That got old years ago, but alas sometimes I just get that itch to throw out my 2 cents.

[3irty1]

No players in the league are paid on commission at the time they actually sign. You're paid on what you're expected to do going forward which is only kind of the same as potential. I pretty much agree with Patler that he should be paid better than an average TE but no where near his last contract. It's not all his fault but Finley has proven that a lot has to go right for him to pull his weight in Green Bay.

[Patler]

No players in the league are paid on commission at the time they actually sign. You're paid on what you're expected to do going forward which is only kind of the same as potential. I pretty much agree with Patler that he should be paid better than an average TE but no where near his last contract. It's not all his fault but Finley has proven that a lot has to go right for him to pull his weight in Green Bay.

Depending on how you look at it, I think it can be argued that many are paid for past performance. A lot of players are "underpaid" for several years, then are paid based on the assumption future performance will reflect past achievement. If it doesn't, many are cut.

Then there are roster and performance bonuses that do have a "commission" aspect to them.

[3irty1]

I think many are paid based on past performance. A lot of players are "underpaid" for several years, then are paid based on the assumption future performance will reflect past achievement. If it doesn't, many are cut.

Then there are roster and performance bonuses that do have a "commission" aspect to them.

You mean signing bonus? Roster bonus is the one that you get for being on the team in a future year which can mean its incentive or just to make an agent look good with money they'll unlikely have to pay. I guess you could call that commission but at the time of signing it might not seem that way.

[Smidgeon]

no no, not 5-7 dominate game

1 dominate game, the playoff game against arizona, 1 very good game (125 yards and a couple TD's i think), then he had 5-7 "good" games (85-115)

and we're still talking about finley in terms of potential, its been 6 seasons. at what point can do we lower the bar that he'll never get to and say "potential reached?"

I think his best days are behind him, so I'm not arguing to keep him.

But 85-115 yards being only "good" is a product of the TEs in New Orleans and New England. Before they changed expectations for everyone (with apologies to Gonzalez and Gates), 100 was a great performance by a TE.

[Fritz]

I dunno. I just think the dude is damaged goods now. His head more than his neck.

I'd put him down pretty far on the list of Packer free agent priorities. A healthy Quarless coming back on a cheapie contract (compared to what Finley would get), plus a rookie TE plus Bostick might outperform Finley for less money.

[Patler]

You mean signing bonus? Roster bonus is the one that you get for being on the team in a future year which can mean its incentive or just to make an agent look good with money they'll unlikely have to pay.

Actually, it can be either one.

A signing bonus can be used to reward a player for outperforming his contract in past years.

While a roster bonus sometimes is there just to increase the total value of a contract, most are legitimate aspects of compensation which the team expects to pay so long as the player continues to perform well. If the player does not continue to play well, he doesn't "earn" the roster bonus and is released before it is paid. A lot of contracts have relatively small roster bonuses in them, sometimes almost every year of the contract. It's only the exorbitantly high ones toward the ends of contracts that are the funny money that a team never expects to pay.

[3irty1]

Actually, it can be either one.

A signing bonus can be used to reward a player for outperforming his contract in past years.

While a roster bonus sometimes is there just to increase the total value of a contract, most are legitimate aspects of compensation which the team expects to pay so long as the player continues to perform well. If the player does not continue to play well, he doesn't "earn" the roster bonus and is released before it is paid. A lot of contracts have relatively small roster bonuses in them, sometimes almost every year of the contract. It's only the exorbitantly high ones toward the ends of contracts that are the funny money that a team never expects to pay.

Sure, I would say a signing bonus is more of a commission as its paid right away and puts more trust in a player to perform which would only exist if that player had already performed. Seeing as how you have to agree to a roster bonus before you play for it, commission doesn't seem like a good description. Mostly because its a pass/fail kind of thing. More so than commission its seems like the purpose of a roster bonus is to manipulate the cap situation.

[mraynrand]

Oh yea, the other thing is when I post I get called out for being another member of the board. That got old years ago....

:oops: I've been known to overdo it :beat:

UNSOUND!

[Patler]

Sure, I would say a signing bonus is more of a commission as its paid right away and puts more trust in a player to perform which would only exist if that player had already performed. Seeing as how you have to agree to a roster bonus before you play for it, commission doesn't seem like a good description. Mostly because its a pass/fail kind of thing. More so than commission its seems like the purpose of a roster bonus is to manipulate the cap situation.

I think of roster bonuses as delayed payments from the previous years. If you played well enough, you get it. If you didn't, they set you free. However, thay can be an easy vehicle to distribute payments to future caps by guaranteeing the roster bonus before the date it is due to be paid.

[pbmax]

Jason La Canfora ‏@JasonLaCanfora 39m
Healthy market forming for Packers TE Jermichael Finley, coming off injury. Not sure he gets longterm deal, but could do well on 1-2 yr

[red]

we'll see if there's still a big market for him after teams do physicals

also, lets not forget the 10 million dollar question.

if he's not offered a deal worth at least 10 million, then he might be better off walking around with a neck brace on and claiming his career if over. at this point, i'm not so sure he'll get a 2 year 10 million dollar deal for anyone with all the ?????????????????

[Brandon494]

He'll get paid

[3irty1]

we'll see if there's still a big market for him after teams do physicals

also, lets not forget the 10 million dollar question.

if he's not offered a deal worth at least 10 million, then he might be better off walking around with a neck brace on and claiming his career if over. at this point, i'm not so sure he'll get a 2 year 10 million dollar deal for anyone with all the ?????????????????

That's a tax free 10 million... he's for sure better off walking away. Just looks like he might not care.

[Joemailman]

That's a tax free 10 million... he's for sure better off walking away. Just looks like he might not care.

It's disability insurance. I would think he needs to be declared unfit to play by at least one doctor (probably more) before he can collect.

[red]

It's disability insurance. I would think he needs to be declared unfit to play by at least one doctor (probably more) before he can collect.

well i can think of two. the packers team doctor, and nick collins doctor

i think the story that came out a week or two ago about finley's surgery being totally different then collins surgery is complete BS by the way

[pbmax]

It's disability insurance. I would think he needs to be declared unfit to play by at least one doctor (probably more) before he can collect.

Oww! Oh my neck!


http://www.larrytt.com/images/larry_neckbrace1.jpg

[Joemailman]

Your neck is fine!

http://www.randomstew.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/drevil.jpg

[mraynrand]

we'll see if there's still a big market for him after teams do physicals

also, lets not forget the 10 million dollar question.

if he's not offered a deal worth at least 10 million, then he might be better off walking around with a neck brace on and claiming his career if over. at this point, i'm not so sure he'll get a 2 year 10 million dollar deal for anyone with all the ?????????????????

maybe he could get some oversized leg warmers to enhance the look.

http://static.wetpaint.me/jersey/ROOT/photos/630/snooki-neck-brace-kika-press-531-11-italy-61964PCNSnookiBrace01--3052789514737387440.jpg

[mraynrand]

?????????????????

My father would make outrageous claims, like he invented the question mark


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTJj4wbmAhk

[3irty1]

It doesn't sound terribly hard to me to find a doctor who likes money.

[mraynrand]

It doesn't sound terribly hard to me to find a doctor who likes money.

rumor has it that some doctors actually go through college, graduate at the top of their class, then four years of medical school, 2-6 years of residency, fellowship, etc. etc. because they like to treat people.

[smuggler]

Some, but not all.

There are numerous doctors who would lose their medical licenses today if their peers actually had the ability to take them away, but congress put a moratorium on it, because it would be 'harmful' to remove physicians from the market or jail them all at once.

[Guiness]

Some, but not all.

There are numerous doctors who would lose their medical licenses today if their peers actually had the ability to take them away, but congress put a moratorium on it, because it would be 'harmful' to remove physicians from the market or jail them all at once.

really? lol, didn't know that.

This sounds kinda like what we talked about wrt Seattle DBs. Break the rules often enough, they'll get tired of punishing you for it.

[pbmax]

Partial redemption for Cub Reporter Hot Tub Chmura, Rob Demovsky confirms the same vertebrae involved with Collins AND Finley. McCarthy much more optimistic about Finley, obviously.


The C-5/C-6 fusion surgery is much easier to come back from than fusions that are done higher in the neck. Former Packers safety Nick Collins had a C-3/C-4 fusion and was never cleared. That's the same fusion tight end Jermichael Finley had last season, although last week coach Mike McCarthy expressed optimism that Finley would be cleared.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/118582/jolly-on-track-to-return-from-neck-surgery

Bonus news, Jolly likely to be cleared to play this year.

[Fritz]

MM sure does seem to like ol' Jermichael. He's got a soft spot for the guy. And that soft spot seems to be located inside his brain pan.

[3irty1]

I like how the media has amnesia when it comes to Nick Collins's stenosis so they can keep comparing his case to those of Jolly and Finley.

[Fritz]

Exactly; a more accurate comparison would be to Terrance Murphy, who is, like Collins, still retired due to his injury and the stenosis.

[pbmax]

I like how the media has amnesia when it comes to Nick Collins's stenosis so they can keep comparing his case to those of Jolly and Finley.

I would blame them more if I could remember it. Can barely keep the vertebrae straight.

We really should just name a thread Spinal Injury and put all the links to posts in there.

And then someone should name their metal band after the thread.

[red]

I like how the media has amnesia when it comes to Nick Collins's stenosis so they can keep comparing his case to those of Jolly and Finley.

maybe the problem is that nick collins doesn't have stenosis?

or if he does, its news that has never been made public

heres an article i found on another forum from 2011. its completely stolen


Rob Demovsky:

Green Bay Packers safety Nick Collins is out for the year, but one of his agents said the full extent of his injury isn’t known.

“We’re not 100 percent sure what the injury is at this point,” said Alan Herman, who co-represents Collins. “We know he didn’t break his back, he didn’t break his neck, he has full feeling in all of his limbs. He can run around and do whatever he wants to do right now. There’s no lingering effect from the impact yesterday. He’s got a headache, but he’s physically able to go.

“The MRI supposedly tells a different story, but we haven’t seen the MRI, we haven’t seen the report of the MRI, and they felt from the doctors that saw him in Carolina and obviously his team doctor, the best thing for him to do for this year is to shut him down to protect him. But there’s nothing in there, there’s no break. I’m assuming there’s some kind of disc involvement, but we don’t know that for a fact either.”

Herman said he’s still waiting for the MRI report, which is being sent to doctors in New York, where Herman is based. From there, a course of action on treatment will be decided.

Disc injuries can be problematic. It’s what has kept Colts quarterback Peyton Manning out of action so far this season. Manning has a bulging disc.

Good news for Collins, though, is that he does not have stenosis, according to Herman. Stenosis is a narrowing of the spinal column, and players who have it and sustain neck injuries often have to retire.

[woodbuck27]

It appears to me as if MM is still high on JeMichael Finley....that he will be resigned.

[Guiness]

maybe the problem is that nick collins doesn't have stenosis?

or if he does, its news that has never been made public

heres an article i found on another forum from 2011. its completely stolen

I vaguely remembered that as well, and was pretty sure he did not have stenosis. I don't think it was ever clear why it seemed his career was done, not much question about it.

[Patler]

I very clearly recall several articles that said Collins did not have stenosis prior to the surgery, but for some reason they almost immediately raised a concern that he could have developed a surgically induced stenosis. Perhaps it had something to do with the severity of the injury, or his specific anatomy, or something else, but for months they talked about waiting to see if he had developed stenosis.

As I recall, at the end he visited a bunch of doctors, and it was reported that they were split on whether or not he should play again.

[red]

its funny, when i was trying to find news on collins injury, i ran across the eric dickerson case.

when dickerson got traded to green bay they gave him a test with one of those new fangled mri machines and found out he had a herniated disk in his neck. because of that, he failed the physical and the team forced him to calling it a career, telling him that they would not allow him to risk his body.

funny thing is, dickerson injured his neck in 84 during his second season in the pros. after he suffered the injury he had around 2600 carries and 281 receptions, before mike holmgren told him the injury prevented him from playing anymore because of the 9 year old injury

from what i've read on collins injury (and finley, jolly and richardson) people get freaked out because IF that same little section of spinal cord gets damaged (touched), then the damage COULD be more permanent. many doctors say that after the fusion, that section of spinal cord is basically encased in an impenetrable shell, and there is absolutely no was that same section can be damaged again. the only way the neck can be re-injured is if another section takes on too much strain because of the fusion. but the chances of that happening are extremely slim to none

i would start to wonder if teams can be held liable for cutting players careers short, when other doctors say there is no risk?

how did football player in yesteryear ever survive without mri machines telling them that their sore neck is a career ender?

i wonder if i should stop working because i have a bulging disk in my lower back. you never now, i could fall off a 4th story roof one day and land back first onto a brick fence and be paralyzed for life, all because of my weakened back, not because of the 4 story fall. me and the other 75% of people in the world should just quit not and go on disability before we get injured any more seriously then we already are

[bobblehead]

Red, I agree with you about all of us retiring who have bulging discs. The one point I would make though, is that Nick Collins wasn't told he couldn't play anymore, he was simply not cleared by the Packers and he was cut. He can go play with any team willing to sign him.

[red]

Red, I agree with you about all of us retiring who have bulging discs. The one point I would make though, is that Nick Collins wasn't told he couldn't play anymore, he was simply not cleared by the Packers and he was cut. He can go play with any team willing to sign him.

i wonder just how many teams brought him in and did all the tests on him, or are they just all taking green bays word that he's not cleared?

the guys been wanting to play again since 2012, but i don't remember hearing any stories about him going to visit other teams and getting checked out by them.

if he did, you'd think it would be news and he would no longer be trying to come back again

[pbmax]

I very clearly recall several articles that said Collins did not have stenosis prior to the surgery, but for some reason they almost immediately raised a concern that he could have developed a surgically induced stenosis. Perhaps it had something to do with the severity of the injury, or his specific anatomy, or something else, but for months they talked about waiting to see if he had developed stenosis.

As I recall, at the end he visited a bunch of doctors, and it was reported that they were split on whether or not he should play again.

The reporting on Collins was horrendous. At first he was reported to NOT have a disc injury. His agent made the situation unclear several times.

Clearly something is preventing Collings from getting team approval. If it isn't the type of surgery, its either the result or an unexpected complication.

[woodbuck27]

https://twitter.com/nickdapick36

Nick Collins Verified account

@nickdapick36


" Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving. " Albert Einstein

[mraynrand]

me and the other 75% of people in the world should just quit not and go on disability ....

hey we're pretty nearly there already

[Guiness]

i wonder just how many teams brought him in and did all the tests on him, or are they just all taking green bays word that he's not cleared?

the guys been wanting to play again since 2012, but i don't remember hearing any stories about him going to visit other teams and getting checked out by them.

if he did, you'd think it would be news and he would no longer be trying to come back again

Didn't he go to at least one other team, Houston maybe?

[red]

Didn't he go to at least one other team, Houston maybe?

if he did, i can't find anything about any visits to anyone

i did find this tidbit though, here http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/3194/nick-collins


Collins says the only doctor that wouldn't medically clear him is Packers team doc Dr. Pat McKenzie.

[Patler]

if he did, i can't find anything about any visits to anyone

i did find this tidbit though, here http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/3194/nick-collins
Collins says the only doctor that wouldn't medically clear him is Packers team doc Dr. Pat McKenzie.

The real question is, will any team doctor will clear him? It doesn't really matter if non-football doctors clear him, if a team Dr won't. If any team thought he could still play, I have to believe he would have been playing somewhere else. It happens all the time, that one team medically fails a player, and another team clears him and he plays for them.

With a player as good as Collins, he would be playing somewhere if another team was willing to clear him. If he really wants to play, and if his agent is doing his job, after GB released him his agent would have contacted every team in the league. How many teams would not sign a healthy Nick Collins? I suspect not a single one, assuming the money could be worked out. It doesn't seem to be a difficult thing to craft a contract with incentives and bonuses to protect a team in case of re-injury while adequately compensating Collins if he in fact plays.

[Patler]

Interesting comments with issues that might result in one player (Finley) being cleared, when another with the same fusion was not (Collins):



Each of the doctors interviewed said defensive backs have the highest occurrence of herniated discs, probably because of the innumerable collisions they endure, many against players much larger than them.

Read more from Journal Sentinel: http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/collins-hopes-to-return-to-football-after-fusion-surgery-mo4u26m-146925665.html#ixzz2udKfv4jD
Follow us: @JournalSentinel on Twitter





If there is an issue after fusion surgery, it isn't with the fused discs but usually the ones above or below them. Because those discs assume the stress from the fused part of the neck, they sometimes will rupture. The player will be forced to retire knowing he might face a lifetime of limited range of motion and discomfort.

"It's a relatively low incidence," Maroon said.

But it does happen.

Baltimore Ravens cornerback Samari Rolle had fusion surgery in 2008, came back the following year and suffered another neck injury that forced him to retire.

"When you hurt your neck, reality sets in," Rolle told the Baltimore Sun in 2009. "My whole attitude changed. If I knew then what I know now, I would have never went back out there."

San Francisco 49ers center Chris Dalman had a single-level fusion of C-3 and C-4 when he was a sophomore at Stanford University. He finished college with no consequences of the surgery and played seven exceptional seasons in the NFL.

During his eighth year, he got hit when he wasn't expecting it during training camp and went down in a heap.

"It kind of exploded through my body," Dalman said. "When I first went down, I couldn't move. I eventually got up and got in the cart and had X-rays and I had another disc herniated between C-5 and C-6.

"It had come back into the (spinal) cord. Every doctor told me I couldn't play anymore."

.....

The second herniation caused Dalman tremendous pain until he finally had a fusion done to C-5 and C-6. He can do all the things he wants to do as a dad - he's also an offensive line coach at a high school in Salinas, Calif. - but he struggles to move his head up and down and reaching to get something out of a tall cabinet is out of the question.

"I really struggle with anything overhead," he said.

Read more from Journal Sentinel: http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/collins-hopes-to-return-to-football-after-fusion-surgery-mo4u26m-146925665.html#ixzz2udKfv4jD
Follow us: @JournalSentinel on Twitter

[Guiness]

Interesting comments with issues that might result in one player (Finley) being cleared, when another with the same fusion was not (Collins):

I remember the Chris Dalman incident, that was scary.

[red]

Interesting comments with issues that might result in one player (Finley) being cleared, when another with the same fusion was not (Collins):

then i think we come back to the same question i've asked before

is player A, who has had the spinal fusion, any more or less likely to suffer another injury compared to player B who has never had a problem before

collins and finley both had never had neck problems before, and there was no stenosis before hand that would make them any more likely to suffer an injury in the first place

player A might have a 2% chance of taking a hit that leaves him paralyzed, player B might have a 1.5% chance of suffering that type of injury by just stepping on the field every week (% may not be accurate numbers, just an example)

every player is at risk every time they play, neck fusion or not

if dalman had not suffered the injury in college, would the injury that ended his career still have happened? i'd say theres a good chance it still would have happened

[Guiness]

then i think we come back to the same question i've asked before

is player A, who has had the spinal fusion, any more or less likely to suffer another injury compared to player B who has never had a problem before

collins and finley both had never had neck problems before, and there was no stenosis before hand that would make them any more likely to suffer an injury in the first place

player A might have a 2% chance of taking a hit that leaves him paralyzed, player B might have a 1.5% chance of suffering that type of injury by just stepping on the field every week (% may not be accurate numbers, just an example)

because 57.4% of all statistics are made up on the spot, right?


every player is at risk every time they play, neck fusion or not

if dalman had not suffered the injury in college, would the injury that ended his career still have happened? i'd say theres a good chance it still would have happened

You're probably right - it has to be a fine line for a doctor to sign off on someone stepping on an NFL field at all. I wonder if it's all in how the question is asked. When players take physicals, say at the combine, the question is 'Are they 100% healthy' to which the answer is yes, unless of course something shows up, as occasionally does.

However, after surgery, the question may change to 'is there a chance of getting hurt if I step onto a football field'. Well, the answer is yes. But it would've been at the combine as well!

[woodbuck27]

because 57.4% of all statistics are made up on the spot, right?


You're probably right - it has to be a fine line for a doctor to sign off on someone stepping on an NFL field at all. I wonder if it's all in how the question is asked. When players take physicals, say at the combine, the question is 'Are they 100% healthy' to which the answer is yes, unless of course something shows up, as occasionally does.

However, after surgery, the question may change to 'is there a chance of getting hurt if I step onto a football field'. Well, the answer is yes. But it would've been at the combine as well!

Looking at your signature Guiness. I'm sure there's a thread there.

http://www.laserspineinstitute.com/back_problems/spinal_stenosis/?source=bing&Category=NA&KW=spinal_stenosis-bidid3658816&cpao=1060&cpca=Condition+-+Stenosis+-+Spine&cpag=Condition-Stenosis-Spine_Broad&kw=spinal_stenosis-bidid3658816&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=spinal_stenosis-bidid3658816

Spinal Stenosis (an overview) etc.:

By: Michael Perry M.D.


GO PACKERS !

[woodbuck27]

MM sure does seem to like ol' Jermichael. He's got a soft spot for the guy. And that soft spot seems to be located inside his brain pan.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1973460-nfl-free-agents-2014-latest-buzz-rumors-after-the-combine/page/6

Buy: The Return of Jermichael Finley.

GO PACK GO !

[bobblehead]

then i think we come back to the same question i've asked before

is player A, who has had the spinal fusion, any more or less likely to suffer another injury compared to player B who has never had a problem before

collins and finley both had never had neck problems before, and there was no stenosis before hand that would make them any more likely to suffer an injury in the first place

player A might have a 2% chance of taking a hit that leaves him paralyzed, player B might have a 1.5% chance of suffering that type of injury by just stepping on the field every week (% may not be accurate numbers, just an example)

every player is at risk every time they play, neck fusion or not

if dalman had not suffered the injury in college, would the injury that ended his career still have happened? i'd say theres a good chance it still would have happened

You are correct in your analysis, but the problem is this: Do you want to be the doctor that clears a guy and then the 2% thingy happens and you look like you sent a guy out there you shouldn't have. Not fair to be sure, but you know they would ruin him.

[mraynrand]

You are correct in your analysis, but the problem is this: Do you want to be the doctor that clears a guy and then the 20% thingy happens and you look like you sent a guy out there you shouldn't have. Not fair to be sure, but you know they would ruin him.

or not.

http://sinfl.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/robert-griffin1.jpghttp://blogsohardsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Doctor-James-Andrews-and-Robert-Griffin-III.jpg

[red]

or not.



good point

and if doctors were really doing their jobs, would they let anyone actually play the games with all the risks it brings

[woodbuck27]

good point

and if doctors were really doing their jobs, would they let anyone actually play the games with all the risks it brings

Bringing on "flag football".

Where speed and true athleticism counts.

[Fritz]

It strikes me as worth noting that when a Packer player suffers some kind of neck injury the team is quite mum on that player's future, or at least extremely cautious in its statements. Think Sean Richardson, Jolly, Nick Collins, Terrance Murphy.

Yet MM is pretty open in expressing confidence that Finley will be back.

I'm guessing he'll be back next year with another one year contract, probably from GB, and once again we'll be teased by his occasional flashes and his proclamations of maturity, only to watch him cringe and drop a few important ones over the middle.

He never did reach the heights that were projected for him, and for a time seemed very possible.

[mraynrand]

He never did reach the heights that were projected for him, and for a time seemed very possible.

But I still don't think he was all that far away. Jennings had been Rodgers' top target and his best years were about 80 catches, 1300 yards. Cobb's best year was 80 catches for less than Jennings in yards. jordy this past year was 85 for over 1300. And in the years when he had to share with everyone else, Nelson was getting maybe 45 catches, 600 yards. Finley has three top years at about 55 for 700. That's a lot, given all the options in the Packer O. APRH, he would have put up bigger numbers this past year. But generally, his numbers wouldn't be that much more, because of the way the offense works. I think he was close to his max in 'production' but they needed him to be more consistent and complete (catch more, block well from time to time, know assignments better).

[red]

But I still don't think he was all that far away. Jennings had been Rodgers' top target and his best years were about 80 catches, 1300 yards. Cobb's best year was 80 catches for less than Jennings in yards. jordy this past year was 85 for over 1300. And in the years when he had to share with everyone else, Nelson was getting maybe 45 catches, 600 yards. Finley has three top years at about 55 for 700. That's a lot, given all the options in the Packer O. APRH, he would have put up bigger numbers this past year. But generally, his numbers wouldn't be that much more, because of the way the offense works. I think he was close to his max in 'production' but they needed him to be more consistent and complete (catch more, block well from time to time, know assignments better).

and thats where he never came close to meeting his potential

[Fritz]

That's kinda what I was thinking. If you want a guy to be considered elite, he's got to do it all and know the assignments inside and out. I think of Jordy Nelson that way - phenomenal skills, plus he is a willing blocker, catches everything, knows the offense inside/out.

[pbmax]

That's kinda what I was thinking. If you want a guy to be considered elite, he's got to do it all and know the assignments inside and out. I think of Jordy Nelson that way - phenomenal skills, plus he is a willing blocker, catches everything, knows the offense inside/out.

There are guys who are not elite who don't know the offense inside and out. But they don't drop balls and they don't refuse to run a seam pattern.

[Smidgeon]

There are guys who are not elite who don't know the offense inside and out. But they don't drop balls and they don't refuse to run a seam pattern.

And now he's not going to want to run the slant or the crossing route either. What does that leave him? The out, the fade, the wheel?

[Fritz]

Maybe he'll try to get his agent to negotiate which routes he'll be required to run.

[pbmax]

Maybe he'll try to get his agent to negotiate which routes he'll be required to run.

In Camp Finley, that is called being in sync with the QB.

In Camp Jennings, any route translates to "I'M OPEN!"

[Fritz]

Seahawks showing interest?

[Smeefers]

I'd keep Finley for the high end of an average TE's salary. Any more than that and I'd think he's over valued. Any less than that and we get a steal. He's got loads of potential and the talent is in there, it's just his consistancy that sucks. If you get him involved early and he makes his catches, he seems to stay involved all game. If he doesn't get a pass until the third Q, he just doesn't seem to have the same flavor.

[smuggler]

I'd say 1 year $4.5 mil.

[Fritz]

I don't know what to think about that guy, except I think maybe he's damaged goods now, like Ferguson was after he got smashed in the head.

[Joemailman]

I don't know what to think about that guy, except I think maybe he's damaged goods now, like Ferguson was after he got smashed in the head.

I've wondered about the same thing. He got knocked out of 2 games with a head injury and a neck injury. Plus, I don't think he's been the same player he was before his knee injury in 2010. If the Packers sign Finley, I think a lot of people will have expectations that are too high.

[pbmax]

Let me put it this way: I would rather have Raji back on a one year deal than Finley. Like KGB, its not going to get better with him, he will be what he has been. Unless he is extremely cheap, time for new blood.

Raji might turn it back on.

[mraynrand]

I don't know what to think about that guy, except I think maybe he's damaged goods now, like Ferguson was after he got smashed in the head.

I don't recall him getting smashed in the head in rookie training camp. Perhaps I got smashed in the head too.

[Patler]

Raji might turn it back on.

I've been trying to think of a d-lineman who went through a multi-year decline, yet was able to turn it back on. I'm not saying there aren't good examples, but I can't think of one. I kept waiting for KGB to do it, he didn't. Cletidus Hunt, no. Even Aaron Kampman's decline was steady and not reversed, although both injuries and a position change entered into his inability to turn it back on.

Can't think of anyone outside of the Packers either. When the big guys lose it, it seems to be gone.

[Joemailman]

I've been trying to think of a d-lineman who went through a multi-year decline, yet was able to turn it back on. I'm not saying there aren't good examples, but I can't think of one. I kept waiting for KGB to do it, he didn't. Cletidus Hunt, no. Even Aaron Kampman's decline was steady and not reversed, although both injuries and a position change entered into his inability to turn it back on.

Can't think of anyone outside of the Packers either. When the big guys lose it, it seems to be gone.

Santana Dotson. After being DROY in 1992, his career declined until the Packers signed him.

[pbmax]

I've been trying to think of a d-lineman who went through a multi-year decline, yet was able to turn it back on. I'm not saying there aren't good examples, but I can't think of one. I kept waiting for KGB to do it, he didn't. Cletidus Hunt, no. Even Aaron Kampman's decline was steady and not reversed, although both injuries and a position change entered into his inability to turn it back on.

Can't think of anyone outside of the Packers either. When the big guys lose it, it seems to be gone.

Its possible that is the case. And frankly, film of him struggling to get off single-blocking this year tends to make lean in your assessment's direction.

But we do know fair to good big D lineman have kept their peak after they begin to age, similar to Pickett and Red Bryant (and Pickett was not universally loved by the Rams after his rookie deal). For 2 years, Raji was at that level and he has shown flashes of it as recently as the 2012 playoffs and a few early plays this year. I think there is a chance, through position change, attitude and the presence of Pickett necessitating a position change twice that he is better than he showed. I know its a thin margin to bet on.

I do think his best talent coming into the League was his burst off the line, I have long thought wist was right on this, that he was a talent misplaced on the Packers to some degree. But its not the only attribute he brings to the table. I think he could become a different, more rounded player. And the humbling he is probably going to receive might be enough to catalyze it.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Its possible that is the case. And frankly, film of him struggling to get off single-blocking this year tends to make lean in your assessment's direction.

But we do know fair to good big D lineman have kept their peak after they begin to age, similar to Pickett and Red Bryant (and Pickett was not universally loved by the Rams after his rookie deal). For 2 years, Raji was at that level and he has shown flashes of it as recently as the 2012 playoffs and a few early plays this year. I think there is a chance, through position change, attitude and the presence of Pickett necessitating a position change twice that he is better than he showed. I know its a thin margin to bet on.

I do think his best talent coming into the League was his burst off the line, I have long thought wist was right on this, that he was a talent misplaced on the Packers to some degree. But its not the only attribute he brings to the table. I think he could become a different, more rounded player. And the humbling he is probably going to receive might be enough to catalyze it.

Agreed. Exactly how I feel about Raji. I think his problem is more to do with lack of motivation than erosion of talent.

[Patler]

Santana Dotson. After being DROY in 1992, his career declined until the Packers signed him.

Granted, he did have a monster rookie year, but I think was just as good the next few years in TB as later in GB. He was getting a lot of sacks in TB, about the same as what he later had with the Packers (5/year or so), but for some reason wasn't a consistent stater in TB.

[Patler]

Its possible that is the case. And frankly, film of him struggling to get off single-blocking this year tends to make lean in your assessment's direction.

But we do know fair to good big D lineman have kept their peak after they begin to age, similar to Pickett and Red Bryant (and Pickett was not universally loved by the Rams after his rookie deal). For 2 years, Raji was at that level and he has shown flashes of it as recently as the 2012 playoffs and a few early plays this year. I think there is a chance, through position change, attitude and the presence of Pickett necessitating a position change twice that he is better than he showed. I know its a thin margin to bet on.

I do think his best talent coming into the League was his burst off the line, I have long thought wist was right on this, that he was a talent misplaced on the Packers to some degree. But its not the only attribute he brings to the table. I think he could become a different, more rounded player. And the humbling he is probably going to receive might be enough to catalyze it.

You could be right. I just see a difference with guys like Dotson, Pickett, Bryant, etc. who are good players but become more reliable (smarter?) with age; and a guy like Raji who went from good (or better) to completely nonproductive. Somehow, there almost seems to be a pride factor missing in Raji's play the last couple years. That isn't so easy to turn back on.

[red]

Granted, he did have a monster rookie year, but I think was just as good the next few years in TB as later in GB. He was getting a lot of sacks in TB, about the same as what he later had with the Packers (5/year or so), but for some reason wasn't a consistent stater in TB.

yeah, i remember santana being a pretty big "get" at the time, i was younger, but i don't remember thinking we just signed some no talent stiff when we got him

[Carolina_Packer]

I'm sure it helped his career that he came over to Green Bay and played with the likes of Reggie White, Sean Jones, Gilbert Brown and had Fritz Shurmur as his DC.

As for Raji, why should we expect any different performance that what we've been getting? Can he play 5 technique in a 3-4 and set the edge? Can he hold the point as a NT? Is he worth another shot, or would he be better served taking his talents elsewhere? Of course it could be Capers fault. :-) Wistful thinking!

[red]

I'm sure it helped his career that he came over to Green Bay and played with the likes of Reggie White, Sean Jones, Gilbert Brown and had Fritz Shurmur as his DC.


what i wouldn't give to have a d-line that was half that good right now

[Joemailman]

yeah, i remember santana being a pretty big "get" at the time, i was younger, but i don't remember thinking we just signed some no talent stiff when we got him

He was known to have talent, but his career was clearly in decline for some reason. His sack and tackle numbers in 1995 were half what they had been in 1992. I see some parallels between Dotson's and Raji's situations. Both declining when they should have been in the prime of their careers. Because of that, if they can get Raji to sign for the money they've been talking about, I think it's a risk worth taking. The risk/reward ratio is pretty good for the Packers.

[mraynrand]

Reggie White could just get other players to elevate their games. Except for Gabe Wilkins, of course.

[Joemailman]

Reggie White could just get other players to elevate their games. Except for Gabe Wilkins, of course.

I wonder what Reggie could have done with Ol' Cleedeeus.

[red]

He was known to have talent, but his career was clearly in decline for some reason. His sack and tackle numbers in 1995 were half what they had been in 1992. I see some parallels between Dotson's and Raji's situations. Both declining when they should have been in the prime of their careers. Because of that, if they can get Raji to sign for the money they've been talking about, I think it's a risk worth taking. The risk/reward ratio is pretty good for the Packers.

santana didn't flat out quit on the bucs before he came to us though, did he?

[red]

Reggie White could just get other players to elevate their games. Except for Gabe Wilkins, of course.

thats a good point, the gravedigger was a cast off from the queens before he came here too

its amazing what real team leaders can do

[Joemailman]

santana didn't flat out quit on the bucs before he came to us though, did he?

I don't know. Do you? I know they weren't very happy with him, but I don't know what the exact issues were.

[red]

I don't know. Do you? I know they weren't very happy with him, but I don't know what the exact issues were.

nope, thats why i asked. hence the question mark

he rebounded though with another team

i think IF, raji were to rebound his career, it needs to be somewhere else. as a packer fan i will not tolerate a player quitting, or giving half assed effort on the field. we needed him this year, and he mailed it in

[Brandon494]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000333842/article/could-jermichael-finley-join-seattle-seahawks

Looks like hes going to join the Hawks...peace Finley! Now use that money on a damn defensive player!

[bobblehead]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000333842/article/could-jermichael-finley-join-seattle-seahawks

Looks like hes going to join the Hawks...peace Finley! Now use that money on a damn defensive player!

Pete Carrol sent him to the team trainer for an injection in his neck. Suddenly Finley is healed (and having his brother pee in a cup for him).

[red]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000333842/article/could-jermichael-finley-join-seattle-seahawks

Looks like hes going to join the Hawks...peace Finley! Now use that money on a damn defensive player!

when and IF he gets medical clearance, which was suppose to come any day now for the last few weeks

the same clearance collins couldn't get for the exact same injury and surgery

[pbmax]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000333842/article/could-jermichael-finley-join-seattle-seahawks

Looks like hes going to join the Hawks...peace Finley! Now use that money on a damn defensive player!

Serious question: no way does he get football clearance before the season. So when would they sign him?

[red]

Serious question: no way does he get football clearance before the season. So when would they sign him?

on the same day a leprechaun rides a unicorn

[pbmax]

National Football Post says his clearance could come much sooner than I would have guessed. About 4 months after surgery (meaning soon).

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Top-10-free-agent-medical-issues-for-2014.html

[red]

and he leaves seattle without a deal. the article says the main reason the seahawks wanted him in was to take a look at his neck

maybe not a good sign if they let him leave after looking him over

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/03/13/finley-leaves-seattle-without-a-contract/

[red]

National Football Post says his clearance could come much sooner than I would have guessed. About 4 months after surgery (meaning soon).

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Top-10-free-agent-medical-issues-for-2014.html

well according to that article, nick collins should have been cleared a couple years ago

and if you read the paragraph just above it, you'll see that they are acting like jolly and finley have the exact same injury. to them there is no differense between a c3-c4 and a c5-c6 fusion

they also seem to think that the player only gets the fusion in order to continue their career

[pbmax]

I think the yellow/green differential is mostly timing. Finley is farther ahead than Jolly. He does say that 3-4 months is the healing for the bone but that ultimately its the spinal cord healing that determines whether when can play again.

He doesn't go into anything about stenosis after the injury and surgery.

[KYPack]

santana didn't flat out quit on the bucs before he came to us though, did he?

No, but the Bucs quit on him.

Dotson had an off the wall rookie season (DROY) with ten sacks.

He got dinged, but still played hard.

In '95 he had a great game vs GB.

Tampa drafted Sapp #1 and Sapp played Dotson's spot (RDT)

Dotson was an FA and Wolf snagged him.

We needed a player at that job and Santana was a decent two way 3tech, good run stuffer and would get you the sack. He always gave a good effort and would make key sacks or run stops a the right time.

The guy hustled and played hard the whole game, it was a good acquisition at the time we needed it. I always thought his good level of play against the Pack was a key factor in Wolf signing him

[smuggler]

Reggie DID get good play from Gabe Wilkins, but the guy cashed in in 1998 and went to SF. He faded into anonymity at that point.

[mraynrand]

Reggie DID get good play from Gabe Wilkins, but the guy cashed in in 1998 and went to SF. He faded into anonymity at that point.

It's probably a good thing that you've blocked SBXXXII from your memory. Kinda wish I could....

[woodbuck27]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000333842/article/could-jermichael-finley-join-seattle-seahawks

Looks like hes going to join the Hawks...peace Finley! Now use that money on a damn defensive player!

When I see that he signed a contract with Seattle I'll believe he's a Seahawk.

If he and Raji ever get onboard new teams along with James Jones and E D-S etc. maybe (just maybe!?) then TT will get around to helping the Green Bay Packer "D"... instead of "Doodle Screwing" around some more, which we cannot afford again this off season.

TT does all he can to procrastinate getting in some very solid help for our 'D' when the REAL NFL contenders sign all the "real help". It's so fricken' frustrating to observe that man NOT work.

[woodbuck27]

and he leaves seattle without a deal. the article says the main reason the seahawks wanted him in was to take a look at his neck

maybe not a good sign if they let him leave after looking him over

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/03/13/finley-leaves-seattle-without-a-contract/

and the JerMichael "I'm deluded RE: too much risk" Finley tour continues.

Although we have to watch to see how Seattle TE Zack Miller reacts to a request (demand) that he takes a pay cut. Zach Miller is just what the Seahawks need at TE and no way will JerMichael Finley offer an upgrade ( maybe a cheaper option ) and that's a BIG MAYBE; which might come in the form of a one year contract as Finley tries to prove himself to another organization.

The REAL BIG PROBLEM. The risk of re-injury that will scare most if not all NFLteamds away for signing him.

[pbmax]

Packers News ‏@PGPackersNews 18h
TE Finley failed Seahawks physical, source tells @PeteDougherty. http://pck.rs/1mlvDAG

From the Green Bay Press Gazette:


Finley is barely more than four months removed from neck surgery performed Nov. 14 to fuse his C-3/C-4 vertebrae. He made a free-agent visit to the Seahawks during the first week of free agency so the team’s medical staff could assess his recovery.

The source didn’t know whether the Seahawks will bring Finley back for a re-check. Though Finley has said he expected his surgeon to proclaim the bone in the neck fusion healed this month, that doesn’t mean NFL teams will clear him to play football, at least for now.

For one, Finley might have collateral issues in the neck that could be preventing him from passing a physical until or if they heal better. His initial injury included a spinal contusion.

[mraynrand]

^^^ SPINAL CONFUSION!

[pbmax]

^^^ SPINAL CONFUSION!

I loved that Kink's album.

[red]

Packers News ‏@PGPackersNews 18h
TE Finley failed Seahawks physical, source tells @PeteDougherty. http://pck.rs/1mlvDAG

From the Green Bay Press Gazette:

color me shocked

[Fritz]

I think with every small piece of bad news, even if it's kinda expected and does not mean "the end" necessarily, both Finley's chances and his price go down.

Frankly, I'm not sure I even want him back any more. Even if he were healthy. Damaged goods mentally, in my opinion. He's like a dog that's been beat. Even mention a route that goes over the middle, and watch him flinch.

[pbmax]

Jermichael Finley ‏@JermichaelF88 11h
God Has A Plan! #IWillRiseAgain

[Fritz]

Jermichael Finley ‏@JermichaelF88 11h
God Has A Plan! #IWillRiseAgain

The words of a guy who isn't getting the news he'd like.

[Joemailman]

http://www.totalpackers.com/2014/03/21/report-jermichael-finley-wont-signing-least-two-months/


Tight end Jermichael Finley is at least two months away and maybe several months more from being in position to sign with a team, a source familiar with the situation said this week.

This means that Finley's next team, if there is one, could be determined by what happens in the draft. A team that used a high pick (1st 3 rounds) on a TE may pass on Finley.

[pbmax]

http://www.totalpackers.com/2014/03/21/report-jermichael-finley-wont-signing-least-two-months/



This means that Finley's next team, if there is one, could be determined by what happens in the draft. A team that used a high pick (1st 3 rounds) on a TE may pass on Finley.

Could also be a guy signed by team with no depth or talent in the middle of camp when said team discovers the problem.

[red]

The words of a guy who isn't getting the news he'd like.

then he should have been paying attention to what everyone else in the world has been saying, not his handlers and "yes" men

[bobblehead]

Jermichael Finley ‏@JermichaelF88 11h
God Has A Plan! #IWillRiseAgain

I have a hunch god's plan will be something like "when you do get an/multiple offer, sign the one with the most money involved"

[mraynrand]

I have a hunch god's plan will be something like "when you do get an/multiple offer, sign the one with the most money involved"

That's a good plan. The more money you earn, the more you can donate.

[denverYooper]

That's a good plan. The more money you earn, the more you can donate.

Especially since he purchases his furniture from Pier 1.

[pbmax]

Especially since he purchases his furniture from Pier 1.

Wicker is surprisingly expensive, especially with the Cracker Barrel markup.

[Patler]

Wicker is surprisingly expensive, especially with the Cracker Barrel markup.

How about antique wicker? I have a chair and rocker in excellent condition, each about 100 years old. Can I retire on those? (By that I mean financing the cost of my retirement, not supporting me as I sit on them during my retirement!!)

[pbmax]

How about antique wicker? I have a chair and rocker in excellent condition, each about 100 years old. Can I retire on those? (By that I mean financing the cost of my retirement, not supporting me as I sit on them during my retirement!!)

A lot of market uncertainty in used wicker. People have irrational fears of crashing through antique wicker accidentally and they look terrible with Grandma's plastic over them.

I would put them on eBay with a big reserve bid to test the WFA waters.

[mraynrand]

How about antique wicker? I have a chair and rocker in excellent condition, each about 100 years old. Can I retire on those? (By that I mean financing the cost of my retirement, not supporting me as I sit on them during my retirement!!)

I question antique wicker; however, as many may not know, including Finley, Wicker is amazing in it's ability to provide appropriate support for the spinal column. When given choice between wicker and a soft, cozy arm chair, wicker has been shown to reduce the pain following C3-C4 fusion (but not C3-C2 fusion) by over 65.3%.

[bobblehead]

That's a good plan. The more money you earn, the more you can donate.

God is all Wise.

[mraynrand]

God is all Wise.

Amen.

If you don't make more than you need to survive, charity is impossible.

[Fritz]

Amen.

If you don't make more than you need to survive, charity is impossible.

Not true.

Charity can be more than just the giving of money.

For example, I keep writing Drew Barrymore and asking her to give it up to me as an act of charity.

[Patler]

Not true.

Charity can be more than just the giving of money.

For example, I keep writing Drew Barrymore and asking her to give it up to me as an act of charity.

Are you asking for a one time gift, or a lifetime sustaining pledge?

[Fritz]

Are you asking for a one time gift, or a lifetime sustaining pledge?

Once with Drew Barrymore would sustain me for a lifetime.

[mraynrand]

Not true.

Charity can be more than just the giving of money.

For example, I keep writing Drew Barrymore and asking her to give it up to me as an act of charity.

for less than the cost of a cup of coffee each day.....

[Fritz]

...I could have Drew Barrymore?

[KYPack]

Jermichael Finley ‏@JermichaelF88 11h
God Has A Plan! #IWillRiseAgain

Yeah, God has a plan, & you ain't in it.

[pbmax]

...I could have Drew Barrymore?

If you had been saving for 13,698 years. That doesn't account for inflation or compound interest, I need some more time on that.

Anyone have a database of interest rates/inflation for the Ancient World?

[red]

Yeah, God has a plan, & you ain't in it.

god wishes your mother would have aborted you

[pbmax]

red, I think that was a step too far.

[red]

red, I think that was a step too far.

if it helps, it wasn't directed at KY, it was directed at finley

[KYPack]

if it helps, it wasn't directed at KY, it was directed at finley

Red and I are cool.

Everybody knows I'm WAY post abortion anyway.

[LP]

Once with Drew Barrymore would sustain me for a lifetime.

Because that one time would give you a heart attack?

[Bretsky]

HONEST QUESTION

Am I the ONLY ONE who's thinking.....I would not mind bringing Finley back for a 1 year deal in the 2-3MIL range per year ????????????????????

[Bretsky]

HONEST QUESTION

Am I the ONLY ONE who's thinking.....I would not mind bringing Finley back for a 1 year deal in the 2-3MIL range per year ????????????????????



WHERE IS BRANDON.....he's my best hope for any backing on this one !!!

[red]

HONEST QUESTION

Am I the ONLY ONE who's thinking.....I would not mind bringing Finley back for a 1 year deal in the 2-3MIL range per year ????????????????????

don't look this way for back up

[King Friday]

Finley now is not what Finley once was. He has no future any longer. MOVE ON.

[red]

Finley now is not what Finley once was. He has no future any longer. MOVE ON.

and what he once was was never much at all.

all he ever was, was what he could have been

[Fritz]

Nah. I'm in good shape.

It's because one memory can last a lifetime.

As for Bretsky asking for backing on bringing back Finley for one year at 2- mill...



...Crickets chirping.

[pbmax]

HONEST QUESTION

Am I the ONLY ONE who's thinking.....I would not mind bringing Finley back for a 1 year deal in the 2-3MIL range per year ????????????????????

Nope. Two guys I was with predicted this because he will get cleared so close to camp that the Packers will offer the best option to play the most this year.

[Joemailman]

Packers talked to Owen Daniels, but he may be close to signing with Baltimore. That could increase Finley's chances here. A lot will probably depend on which teams get the top TE's in the draft.

[mraynrand]

Yeah, God has a plan, & you ain't in it.

how do you know?

[red]

Packers talked to Owen Daniels, but he may be close to signing with Baltimore. That could increase Finley's chances here. A lot will probably depend on which teams get the top TE's in the draft.

i think when we signed Q, right after daniels came in for a visit, it was a clear sign that we were going with Q over daniels

[Zool]

how do you know?

Faith

[woodbuck27]

Red and I are cool.

Everybody knows I'm WAY post abortion anyway.

Your like most of us here....a survivor.

[pbmax]

how do you know?

EDIT: joke fail. turns out burning bush dot com is an actual site.

[woodbuck27]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/10675825/mike-mccarthy-green-bay-packers-says-jermichael-finley-not-cleared-play


" When asked whether the Packers would want him back, McCarthy said: "Absolutely." ..." LINK