MM's management style

[Patler]

So, he obviously determined that special teams were a problem. His solution:

- get rid of the special teams assistant coach
- reassign the part-time special teams assistant
- but keep the special teams coordinator.

Those moves alone are a questionable management approach to solving a problem. Keep the man in charge, but fire his workers? But then he hires a much more experienced coach as the new assistant?

I have not been a big fan of many of MM's hires. Many just don't stand out.

[red]

this is why i brought up during the season that if we really want to fix the big problems with the team, we're going to have to get rid of M3

he's just too damn loyal to his friend, and unfortunately, his friend is the biggest liability to this club

he sees that there are problems, he even sometimes seems to know what those problems are. but he rarely if ever fixes those problems

he says we need to get those problems fixed, but he never does, and i feel he can't

so the question becomes. do the good things M3 brings to the table out weight the many problems that arise from his presence and complete inability to fix said problems?

[oldbutnotdeadyet]

this is why i brought up during the season that if we really want to fix the big problems with the team, we're going to have to get rid of M3

he's just too damn loyal to his friend, and unfortunately, his friend is the biggest liability to this club

he sees that there are problems, he even sometimes seems to know what those problems are. but he rarely if ever fixes those problems

he says we need to get those problems fixed, but he never does, and i feel he can't

so the question becomes. do the good things M3 brings to the table out weight the many problems that arise from his presence and complete inability to fix said problems?

Yup. I have never been a big M3 fan, but have come to realize that we are stuck with him due to the Packers success over the last several years. Whether that success is due to his coaching, or the players, or a combination of the two, it does not matter cause the Packer org just sees the success and are saying let it ride. We will have to go thru another dry spell before any fundamental changes are made. Dammit...

[Fritz]

So, he obviously determined that special teams were a problem. His solution:

- get rid of the special teams assistant coach
- reassign the part-time special teams assistant
- but keep the special teams coordinator.

Those moves alone are a questionable management approach to solving a problem. Keep the man in charge, but fire his workers? But then he hires a much more experienced coach as the new assistant?

I have not been a big fan of many of MM's hires. Many just don't stand out.


It does seem like a bit of a passive/aggressive move. I'm not going to fire you, but...I'm going to hire, as your "assistant," a guy who's been a ST coach before, a veteran coach.

I think MM's tenure in G B is nearing its end, however - I see another two years of him here, with Ted, and then I think the whole bunch will be going, with TT retiring to become a scout and a new guy, maybe Eliot Wolf, taking over.

Then there can be a whole new crew.

So I'm going to pretend I like the way MM has handled the ST clusterfuck. Or just ignore it, except for when I call for Slocum's head.

[red]

so fritz, if he does stay 2 more years, he will have been the packers HC for 10 years

the second longest tenure in packer history only behind curly and his almost 30 years as a head coach.

after this next season he will have number all to himself, passing vince and bart, two packer legends though one wasn't a legend for his coaching

is he really that good? does he really deserve to reign that long in the most stories franchise in nfl history?

to me, he's peaked as a packer coach. i don't think he has what it takes to get us another super bowl, and he's just wasting the best years of our current HOF QB. and this last line can be applied to TT also

[Fritz]

I don't know, red. I don't like what I see as MM's increasingly belligerent attitude with the press. I know that doesn't mean he's not a good coach, but it speaks to me of burnout and ire.

But I believe, with no real evidence, that he and TT have a kind of exit strategy in mind, and I don't think it's more than two or maybe three years away.

[red]

I don't know, red. I don't like what I see as MM's increasingly belligerent attitude with the press. I know that doesn't mean he's not a good coach, but it speaks to me of burnout and ire.

But I believe, with no real evidence, that he and TT have a kind of exit strategy in mind, and I don't think it's more than two or maybe three years away.

i would rather that exit come sonner then that.

need to get a new coach in here and get him established so we can make a final run at the end of a-rods career. if they don't leave for 3 years and it takes the new coach a couple years to establish his team, then that doesn't leave us many years with a-rod. unless we manage to to what no other team in history has done and draft another top notch QB to follow favre and rodgers

as for TT, has the talent in green bay improved or declined since the super bowl? we've lost a lot of marquee players from that team, and we haven't replaced them with very much talent

[pbmax]

Actually, I think McCarthy in front of the press is more in control than ever before. I think there is a difference between belligerency and staying on message or refusing to engage a question on the reporters terms. You can call it poor manners, lack of good faith and a few other things, but its all part of the package of coaches in the modern media atmosphere. There were more outbursts and confrontations when he was younger and less sure of himself.

Zook does seem like a backdoor way to undermine Slocum. But Zook, unless he has been doing it as a HC in college (which does happen), has not spent a lot of time as a ST coach. Its a quintessential M3 hire as you can see why someone should be replaced but then the replacement doesn't support that line of thinking.

Zook has a huge background in Defense, so maybe he is here to help coverage teams. Morton worked with returners along with other possible assignments we simply didn't read about.

[pbmax]

i would rather that exit come sonner then that.

need to get a new coach in here and get him established so we can make a final run at the end of a-rods career. if they don't leave for 3 years and it takes the new coach a couple years to establish his team, then that doesn't leave us many years with a-rod. unless we manage to to what no other team in history has done and draft another top notch QB to follow favre and rodgers

as for TT, has the talent in green bay improved or declined since the super bowl? we've lost a lot of marquee players from that team, and we haven't replaced them with very much talent

A boatload of playoff appearances, two deep runs and a Super Bowl are worth 10 years. You can't compare any coach to Lombardi and see your way clear to a 10 year deal, not even Parcells would qualify.

Compared to Bart, McCarthy should be here until 2020.

[red]

could zook be here to teach our ST guys how to tackle?

[red]

A boatload of playoff appearances, two deep runs and a Super Bowl are worth 10 years. You can't compare any coach to Lombardi and see your way clear to a 10 year deal, not even Parcells would qualify.

Compared to Bart, McCarthy should be here until 2020.


i don't know if i completely buy the argument that we have a good HC because we're in the playoffs every year.

we play in one of the weakest divisions in the NFL. we win by default most years. we were handed the division this year thanks to the collapse of the bears and lions. most of those playoff appearances result in one and dones

being the best turd in the bowl still makes you shit

[pbmax]

McCarthy has answered a few questions about his coaching methods and assistants.

Its clear his offensive staff is valued around the League (Philbin, Clements, McAdoo and Van Pelt have all been offered jobs or significant interview opportunities). Jimmy Robinson was very well regarded and left only to join his buddy in Dallas. Bennett seems to be a hidden gem and Campen, long before this year, has been a rumored hot commodity. That one is partially baffling, though to his credit his run blocking charges did well this year, putting some of the onus back on his previous personnel.

Campen also has a few development accomplishments now, with Sitton at a Pro Bowl level, Lang not far behind and EDS being good enough. He also still seems to do well with rookies and young players who need to develop quickly and become ready to start (Old Wig, Barclay, Newhouse, GVR).

Defensively its a far more mixed bag and Greene leaving doesn't clear it up. Whitt is rumored very well regarded (and I think it was reported they turned down a request to interview him from Atlanta). Perry was long considered a DC in waiting though recent events have left him a mayor of a town with a river fire. Moss means something to M3 and Hawk did return to his previous personal high level of play (your mileage may vary on whether that is good enough) and he just was promoted back to OLB coach which means they trust him not to screw something up.

Trgo is an old war horse but his charges have been 2 for 3 in recent underperformance. Capers is still skilled at what he does but what he does might not fit the organization on top of him. If they were all canned after the playoff loss, they would all have jobs next year is my judgement. So there is NFL talent there. Why it is not working on a more regular basis is a more complex question than "he sucks as a coach".

[pbmax]

i don't know if i completely buy the argument that we have a good HC because we're in the playoffs every year.

we play in one of the weakest divisions in the NFL. we win by default most years. we were handed the division this year thanks to the collapse of the bears and lions. most of those playoff appearances result in one and dones

being the best turd in the bowl still makes you shit

That is true this year but one other year you had to beat your most hated rival to make it to the Super Bowl. The NFC North is not the AFC East.

And he has a couple of high seeds in addition to the two deep runs. So its not just winning the division at 9-7 every year.

[esoxx]

These special team moves are simply shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic.

We still have Captain Smith, er, Slocum in the wheel house.

[mraynrand]

could zook be here to teach our ST guys how to tackle?

If you mean tackling a vending machine, then YES!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7U7GyRF_Xo

[red]

McCarthy has answered a few questions about his coaching methods and assistants.

Its clear his offensive staff is valued around the League (Philbin, Clements, McAdoo and Van Pelt have all been offered jobs or significant interview opportunities). Jimmy Robinson was very well regarded and left only to join his buddy in Dallas. Bennett seems to be a hidden gem and Campen, long before this year, has been a rumored hot commodity. That one is partially baffling, though to his credit his run blocking charges did well this year, putting some of the onus back on his previous personnel.

Campen also has a few development accomplishments now, with Sitton at a Pro Bowl level, Lang not far behind and EDS being good enough. He also still seems to do well with rookies and young players who need to develop quickly and become ready to start (Old Wig, Barclay, Newhouse, GVR).

Defensively its a far more mixed bag and Greene leaving doesn't clear it up. Whitt is rumored very well regarded (and I think it was reported they turned down a request to interview him from Atlanta). Perry was long considered a DC in waiting though recent events have left him a mayor of a town with a river fire. Moss means something to M3 and Hawk did return to his previous personal high level of play (your mileage may vary on whether that is good enough) and he just was promoted back to OLB coach which means they trust him not to screw something up.

Trgo is an old war horse but his charges have been 2 for 3 in recent underperformance. Capers is still skilled at what he does but what he does might not fit the organization on top of him. If they were all canned after the playoff loss, they would all have jobs next year is my judgement. So there is NFL talent there. Why it is not working on a more regular basis is a more complex question than "he sucks as a coach".

i think that whole offensive staff is riding a-rods coat tails

without a-rod we saw this team was a .500 team at best and assistants on .500 teams are not hot commodities

[mraynrand]

Yup. I have never been a big M3 fan, but have come to realize that we are stuck with him due to the Packers success over the last several years.

What could be worse than getting stuck with a perennial playoff coach and Super Bowl winner?

http://www.profootballhof.com/assets/hof/Gregg_Forrest_Induction_180-220.jpghttp://www.profootballhof.com/assets/hof/Starr_Bart_Induction_180-220.jpghttp://i.nfl.packers.com/images/history/infante_full.jpeghttp://i.nfl.packers.com/images/history/story/devine_dan.jpghttp://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/news/2000/01/21/vikings_defense_ap/t1_rhodes_all_01.jpghttp://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/50/files/2012/01/Mike-Sherman-Bucs.jpg

[mraynrand]

i think that whole offensive staff is riding a-rods coat tails

without a-rod we saw this team was a .500 team at best and assistants on .500 teams are not hot commodities

So you're saying a franchise QB is pretty important? Do you think you could find anyone to disagree with you?

The best thing about Rodgers is that he brought Tedford's offensive stratagems and QBing techniques and skills to Packers - otherwise that lumbering fool McCarthy wouldn't have a clue what to do.

[red]

So you're saying a franchise QB is pretty important? Do you think you could find anyone to disagree with you?

The best thing about Rodgers is that he brought Tedford's offensive stratagems and QBing techniques and skills to Packers - otherwise that lumbering fool McCarthy wouldn't have a clue what to do.

i'm saying green bays coaches aren't shit without a-rod. it was in response to pb saying the coaches must be pretty good because they are always in high demand

i know its tough to read all the shit when all you really want to do is troll

[mraynrand]

i'm saying green bays coaches aren't shit without a-rod. it was in response to pb saying the coaches must be pretty good because they are always in high demand

i know its tough to read all the shit when all you really want to do is troll

It's not trolling to argue that your position is absurd, since the coaching staff had a lot to do with Rodgers becoming what he is. If you don't agree, I care not. It's sufficient to me to know that you're grossly wrong.

[bobblehead]

so fritz, if he does stay 2 more years, he will have been the packers HC for 10 years

the second longest tenure in packer history only behind curly and his almost 30 years as a head coach.

after this next season he will have number all to himself, passing vince and bart, two packer legends though one wasn't a legend for his coaching

is he really that good? does he really deserve to reign that long in the most stories franchise in nfl history?

to me, he's peaked as a packer coach. i don't think he has what it takes to get us another super bowl, and he's just wasting the best years of our current HOF QB. and this last line can be applied to TT also

Because we were fingertips away from defeating SF (though we wouldn't likely have beaten seattle) I think MM has to stick for another year or two. His window is closing, not because he isn't good enough, but because NFL coaches do get stale and burned out. Look at Andy Reid, definitely stale in Philly, but he turned KC around big time.

[oldbutnotdeadyet]

What could be worse than getting stuck with a perennial playoff coach and Super Bowl winner?

http://www.profootballhof.com/assets/hof/Gregg_Forrest_Induction_180-220.jpghttp://www.profootballhof.com/assets/hof/Starr_Bart_Induction_180-220.jpghttp://i.nfl.packers.com/images/history/infante_full.jpeghttp://i.nfl.packers.com/images/history/story/devine_dan.jpghttp://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/news/2000/01/21/vikings_defense_ap/t1_rhodes_all_01.jpghttp://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/50/files/2012/01/Mike-Sherman-Bucs.jpg

Yes, I remember them all, which is why I say we are stuck with M3 until we go in the shitter again. Look how long those piss poor coaches lasted. And while I acknowledge all the points the M3 supporters make, there is nothing wrong with wanting MORE, or something better for the Packers. I want another Super Bowl. Getting to the playoffs, and getting knocked out early is getting old.

[red]

Because we were fingertips away from defeating SF (though we wouldn't likely have beaten seattle) I think MM has to stick for another year or two. His window is closing, not because he isn't good enough, but because NFL coaches do get stale and burned out. Look at Andy Reid, definitely stale in Philly, but he turned KC around big time.

i agree with the idea of coaches getting stale, and i've recently used the andy reid exaple

but to me, m3 and TT have already hit their expiration dates

[mraynrand]

Yes, I remember them all, which is why I say we are stuck with M3 until we go in the shitter again. Look how long those piss poor coaches lasted. And while I acknowledge all the points the M3 supporters make, there is nothing wrong with wanting MORE, or something better for the Packers. I want another Super Bowl. Getting to the playoffs, and getting knocked out early is getting old.

Sure, I'd like them to win the Superbowl every year too. Which coach is doing that? Who is even coming close to Stubby over the past five-ten years. You want maybe Tom Coughlin? He and Belicheat are close to retirement...

[bobblehead]

That is true this year but one other year you had to beat your most hated rival to make it to the Super Bowl. The NFC North is not the AFC East.

And he has a couple of high seeds in addition to the two deep runs. So its not just winning the division at 9-7 every year.

You know damn well that we played 15 division games the season we went 15-1.

[red]

You know damn well that we played 15 division games the season we went 15-1.

one and done

[bobblehead]

i agree with the idea of coaches getting stale, and i've recently used the andy reid exaple

but to me, m3 and TT have already hit their expiration dates

I have trouble buying that. Injuries have sabotaged a lot of season for this team...now that could be partly to MM's practice habits, but things like Clay's thumb are not. And again, people worship SF around here, yet if Hyde pulls the ball in, or if Bush contains, we move on, and the great Harbaugh does not.

[bobblehead]

one and done

And it sucked, but it doesn't negate the accomplishment. Half the teams in the playoffs go one and done...fire them all.

[bobblehead]

And it sucked, but it doesn't negate the accomplishment. Half the teams in the playoffs go one and done...fire them all.

BTW, how did the team that beat us end up that year...probably lost the next game and flamed out huh?

[red]

I have trouble buying that. Injuries have sabotaged a lot of season for this team...now that could be partly to MM's practice habits, but things like Clay's thumb are not. And again, people worship SF around here, yet if Hyde pulls the ball in, or if Bush contains, we move on, and the great Harbaugh does not.

and if detroit makes 1 more play over the last 4 or 5 weeks we don't even make the playoffs

[bobblehead]

and if detroit makes 1 more play over the last 4 or 5 weeks we don't even make the playoffs

but only because ARod missed 8 weeks. And that probably happened because we lost Bulaga before the season. Minus incredible bad luck with injuries, this team is still a competitor for the superbowl every year.

edit: I forgot that we were also without our highest paid defensive player, and our shutdown corner got hurt like 3 plays into the SF game...good god, how was that game close?

[oldbutnotdeadyet]

Its a good debate but I bow to the M3 supporters as me thinks M3 is not going anywhere for several years, maybe even past Rogers leaving the Packers or retiring, cause I think that is what it will take for us to get shitty again.

[mraynrand]

Because we were fingertips away from defeating SF (though we wouldn't likely have beaten seattle) I think MM has to stick for another year or two. His window is closing, not because he isn't good enough, but because NFL coaches do get stale and burned out. Look at Andy Reid, definitely stale in Philly, but he turned KC around big time.

I'm gonna have to go ahead and sort of disagree with you there
http://076dd0a50e0c1255009e-bd4b8aabaca29897bc751dfaf75b290c.r40.cf1.rackcdn.c om/images/files/000/506/122/original/original.jpg

I think the Packers are keeping pretty fresh, considering all the guys they've lost, especially from the FO.

As far as coaches, I like the mix of bringing in young guys to teach (Packers teach them) and established guys to give a different perspective(to the Packers). I'm on the fence with regard to Capers due to the uncertainty caused by the injuries, but he's probably gonna retire and be replaced soon and that has the chance of revitalizing that side of the ball.

I think Stubby adjusts the offense as needed and has vision. Specifically, I think the drafting of Lacy and the concentration on the running game was actually pretty proactive to counter the brutal defenses of the 49ers and Seahawks while protecting the QB.

[mraynrand]

and if detroit makes 1 more play over the last 4 or 5 weeks we don't even make the playoffs

If Sherman falters on one step, Seattle doesn't even get to the Super Bowl. If Hyde jumps an inch higher, SF doesn't make it to the Divisional round.

[red]

and i will never forgive M3 for the epic failure of not winning that second super bowl in 2011

go 15-1 and get beat in you first game of the playoffs to a team who was beneath you, everyone was below us that season. IMO, there is no excuse for not winning back to back

[channtheman]

this is why i brought up during the season that if we really want to fix the big problems with the team, we're going to have to get rid of M3

he's just too damn loyal to his friend, and unfortunately, his friend is the biggest liability to this club

he sees that there are problems, he even sometimes seems to know what those problems are. but he rarely if ever fixes those problems

he says we need to get those problems fixed, but he never does, and i feel he can't

so the question becomes. do the good things M3 brings to the table out weight the many problems that arise from his presence and complete inability to fix said problems?


I agree completely. I was just talking to my dad yesterday about MM. The ST and Defense have been problems for a while, injuries this and injuries that all you want, they are problems. MM won't fire his DC or ST coordinator. MM has to go then, IMO. And if MM doesn't get let go, than TT is the next man up. Yeah we won a Super Bowl with them, but this is a win now league and we are wasting Rodgers prime years fucking around with 1/3 of a team. Enough already.

[ThunderDan]

Yes, I remember them all, which is why I say we are stuck with M3 until we go in the shitter again. Look how long those piss poor coaches lasted. And while I acknowledge all the points the M3 supporters make, there is nothing wrong with wanting MORE, or something better for the Packers. I want another Super Bowl. Getting to the playoffs, and getting knocked out early is getting old.

Well if that is your criteria, Super Bowls, here is who should shit can their coach:

Dallas
PHI
WASH
NO
Car
ATL
TB
CHI
DET
MINN
StL
SF
ARI
NE
NYJ
MIA
BUFF
PITT
CLE
CIN
HOU
IND
JACK
TENN
OAK
SD
KC
DEN

Those are the 28 teams that have not won a Super Bowl as recently as GB.

[Pugger]

and i will never forgive M3 for the epic failure of not winning that second super bowl in 2011

go 15-1 and get beat in you first game of the playoffs to a team who was beneath you, everyone was below us that season. IMO, there is no excuse for not winning back to back

I got a feeling that if you were a Bronco fan you'd be leading the charge to fire Fox because of how crappy Denver played in the SB. In a single elimination tournament you have one off day and you are screwed. There is no way in hell we would have been 8-7-1 if Rodgers plays the entire season. BTW, that team that beat us after a 15-1 season went on to win the whole damn thing just like we did in 2010 so I don't know if I'd say they were beneath us.

[Pugger]

Yes, I remember them all, which is why I say we are stuck with M3 until we go in the shitter again. Look how long those piss poor coaches lasted. And while I acknowledge all the points the M3 supporters make, there is nothing wrong with wanting MORE, or something better for the Packers. I want another Super Bowl. Getting to the playoffs, and getting knocked out early is getting old.

Yes, but you gotta get into the playoffs first. It sucks we were one and done again but this year with this MASH unit it was a minor miracle we got in at all. If we just have a normal number of injuries and fill in a couple of defensive holes 2014 could be a lot of fun.

[bobblehead]

BTW, that team that beat us after a 15-1 season went on to win the whole damn thing just like we did in 2010 so I don't know if I'd say they were beneath us.

That can't be right. We sucked, that team MUST have lost their next game.

[3irty1]

I think this could be one of the rare times we're over analyzing. People make too much of the various job titles of the coaching staff IMO. In reality, each of them is specialist. Zook could have been brought in to oversee just one piece of special teams.

Anyone looking to can McCarthy has got some serious armchair GM hubris. MM has proven to be one of the finest game planners, play callers, and all-around offensive minds in the league. He approaches the game with a philosophy and thus is constantly evolving as quickly or quicker than the league he's in. He's as good as there is on that side of the ball. Most of the fans that I've talked to don't like him because he's generally calm on the sidelines. Not screaming and grabbing face masks. IMO fans who want that kind of coach are idiots. If your players needed that kind of motivation they don't belong in the NFL, much less Green Bay.

[red]

i can't take this fucking place anymore

most you fucking idiots have your heads so far up the teams ass that you can't smell the shit

fuck this place

packer rats, home to the best packer cool aid around

DRINK UP

[mraynrand]

i can't take this fucking place anymore

most you fucking idiots have your heads so far up the teams ass that you can't smell the shit

fuck this place

packer rats, home to the best packer cool aid around

DRINK UP

If you want, I can recommend for Cleveland Browns sites for you.:twisted:

[Pugger]

If you want, I can recommend for Cleveland Browns sites for you.:twisted:

Or Jacksonville, Nashville, Houston, Oakland, Buffalo, NJ Jets, Miami, DC, Tampa, Minneapolis...

Yes, losing in the playoffs sucks but not sniffing the playoffs is even worse. Some of you people are freaking spoiled and didn't endure the Dark Times in the 70s and 80s when we were horrendous.

[oldbutnotdeadyet]

Or Jacksonville, Nashville, Houston, Oakland, Buffalo, NJ Jets, Miami, DC, Tampa, Minneapolis...

Yes, losing in the playoffs sucks but not sniffing the playoffs is even worse. Some of you people are freaking spoiled and didn't endure the Dark Times in the 70s and 80s when we were horrendous.

Well, I am both. Old enough to have lived thru the dark ages, and yes still spoiled by recent success. However, I still believe M3 is not a great overall coach. Is he horrible? No. He is a good offensive mind, but he lacks the overall leadership to drive improvements on both sides of the ball, and he is too loyal to his incompetent sub-coaches. But again, in the Packer org, Oldbutnotdeadyet's opinion does not mean shit, and I believe we will live with M3 until we die with M3.

[bobblehead]

i can't take this fucking place anymore

most you fucking idiots have your heads so far up the teams ass that you can't smell the shit

fuck this place

packer rats, home to the best packer cool aid around

DRINK UP

Red, you sum up how I feel in reverse. You act like we are defending the Bucks or the Brewers here (or Cleveland, or Detroit). Lets be honest though, this team has about the amount of talent a team can fit under the cap. There are no more Steelers/Bradshaw teams. The run we are having is damn good. Lord almighty, I fear what you might do when we put a truly inferior talent on the field. Worst of all, you get this intense about a game, but if someone mentions that our country is printing money like a fat kid eats chocolate you get pissed to no end because it shouldn't be talked about.

edit: In rereading my post I have figured it out. Red....are you an only child who has never been told no before by chance?

[Fritz]

Bobble, you overanalyze. Red's just an angry jaegermeister drinker who likes a pill or two on the side.

I don't often agree with Red, but I enjoy his rants.

[bobblehead]

Bobble, you overanalyze. Red's just an angry jaegermeister drinker who likes a pill or two on the side.

I don't often agree with Red, but I enjoy his rants.

I think when you rant that you can't take it anymore, and everyone who disagrees with you is stupid kool aid drinker, and throw in a fuck this place....your pill problem might be going a bit far.

Can you imagine Red's reaction if I posted "Fuck you Red, you are just a negative miserable motherfucker who is pissed at life for not handing you what you think you deserve. Take your head out of your ass before you post on packerrats"

His tone around here is exactly the tone that he whines and cries about when some of us want to discuss politics (in an area he has to specifically choose to go to).

Red acts like every asshole I know who can't handle not being surrounded by people who agree with everything he says and does. Probably texts while driving and talks on the phone at the movie theater then acts indignant when someone calls him out on it.

There, now I have over analyzed.

[pbmax]

red's saving grace is two-fold. When people freak out at his pessimism, he gets funnier, not loonier. Unlike a lot of posters whose panic grows worse under stress.

The second is my strong suspicion that if the Packers were rebuilding, he would be more sedate. I could be wrong about that.

[oldbutnotdeadyet]

red's saving grace is two-fold. When people freak out at his pessimism, he gets funnier, not loonier. Unlike a lot of posters whose panic grows worse under stress.

The second is my strong suspicion that if the Packers were rebuilding, he would be more sedate. I could be wrong about that.

Ok, which of you assholes chased red away?

[bobblehead]

red's saving grace is two-fold. When people freak out at his pessimism, he gets funnier, not loonier. Unlike a lot of posters whose panic grows worse under stress.

The second is my strong suspicion that if the Packers were rebuilding, he would be more sedate. I could be wrong about that.

In fairness, I don't mind Red ranting. I find it humorous mostly...I only mind that he is so indignant about the FYI stuff, or political references while being second only to skin in inflammatory style.

[bobblehead]

Ok, which of you assholes chased red away?

Anyone who defended TT or MM (to the best of my understanding, and yes, that would certainly include me).

[oldbutnotdeadyet]

Well, hope he comes back. What about Woody? Haven't seen him for awhile either. Maybe he died? I sorta enjoyed Woody's psycho posts.

[Patler]

What could be worse than getting stuck with a perennial playoff coach and Super Bowl winner?

http://www.profootballhof.com/assets/hof/Gregg_Forrest_Induction_180-220.jpghttp://www.profootballhof.com/assets/hof/Starr_Bart_Induction_180-220.jpghttp://i.nfl.packers.com/images/history/infante_full.jpeghttp://i.nfl.packers.com/images/history/story/devine_dan.jpghttp://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/news/2000/01/21/vikings_defense_ap/t1_rhodes_all_01.jpghttp://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/50/files/2012/01/Mike-Sherman-Bucs.jpg

Yes, I remember them all, which is why I say we are stuck with M3 until we go in the shitter again. Look how long those piss poor coaches lasted. And while I acknowledge all the points the M3 supporters make, there is nothing wrong with wanting MORE, or something better for the Packers. I want another Super Bowl. Getting to the playoffs, and getting knocked out early is getting old.

Most unsuccessful coaches haven't lasted that long in GB. Bengtson, 3 years; Devine, Gregg, and Infanti, 4 years. Rhodes, just one season. Sherman won a lot of games, and initially looked like a good one in the making; yet he lasted only six years. Starr is the only one who had a rather inexplicably long period as head coach.

[Patler]

I didn't start this thread to suggest that MM should be fired. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses in their job performance. I think MM has made some questionable hiring decisions, but there is a lot more to being a head coach than that. I just think it is something that he and the Packers should work to improve.

I thought his original staff was unimpressive, but chalked it up to an inexperienced HC not having drawing power.

I thought elevating Campen to the top O-line spot at the time he did was ridiculous. The guy had very insignificant coaching experience, and there were proven successful O-line coaches available at the time (I've forgotten who). For years under Campen, the O-lines for the Packers started seasons miserably, and it was mid-season before they started playing reasonably well. Maybe Campen has developed into a decent coach, some seem to think so, but the growing pains have been long and difficult. To me, it is just another indicator that Campen was not ready at the time, and MM should have brought in someone for Campen to work under for a few more years.

MM seemed to bounce around randomly for what he wanted in the strength and conditioning area. There has been a lot of turnover in personnel and in methods.

I thought maybe MM was getting his act together as a recruiter when he changed out his defensive staff. He brought in a fairly impressive group that was a good mixture of very experienced and respected veteran coaches, some up and coming younger coaches that looked good, and a freshly minted coach who you knew would make his presnce felt one way or another.

The elevation of Slocom made me wince a bit, but I was willing to give MM the benefit of the doubt on that one. But the combined moves now of firing and/or reassigning everyone under Slocom while keeping Slocom, and then hiring Zook is poor management form, in my opinion.

[mraynrand]

But the combined moves now of firing and/or reassigning everyone under Slocom while keeping Slocom, and then hiring Zook is poor management form, in my opinion.

It reminds of the strange move to fire the GM and keep the coach, both of whom are the same guy!

I suspect MM was trying to split the baby. He knows there have to be changes, but canning a guy indicates more chaos (In MM's mind; I'm guessing here). So in the interest of trying to look calm and measured, MM looks kinda foolish. Here's the thing he may forget: In football, especially in the NFL, guys get canned all the time, even if they are reasonably good at their jobs. In this scenario, Slocum would not be all that shocked at a dismissal, and would find work.

An alternative theory is that there is some sort of working relationship that MM does not want to lose. Perhaps they consult on improving red zone efficiency, for example :twisted:

[run pMc]

I saw the hire of Zook as a meh move, but also one designed to put some heat on Slocum. If the ST's don't improve, we have your replacement in house. Of course, there's the risk Zook undermines Slocum, which would make the whole thing ugly. My guess is this isn't the first warning Slocum's had. As for giving Moss all the LB's, I'm not overly impressed with the play of the ILBs but that might be more of a physical limitation thing than a preparation thing...so maybe it will work. Overall, bringing in new coaches should help keep things from being stale, and in theory improve the energy and creativity in the building. Maybe Gizzi figures out a way to reduce hamstring injuries; that alone might win them an extra two games.

I've said this before, but I don't get the M3 hate. He's got a sharp mind for offense. He's won 3 NFCN straight titles and a SB, and he's been good against the rest of the division. Favre/Rodgers have a lot to say for his success, and IMO his rep as a QB guru is a little overrated, but he's been able to keep winning and lead the team through tough stretches injury-wise without losing them. My biggest complaint is he's not a great in-game adjuster, but you could say that about a lot of HC's. If he and the whole staff got canned, most (M3, Moss, Capers, Bennett, Campen, Van Pelt...) would get jobs elsewhere.

I'm with 3irty1, I think this is overanalyzing. I also agree that you want your HC to be calm. Let your DC be a raving maniac if you want, but your HC needs to be calm. It'd drive me crazy if M3 started acting like Harbaugh.

[Patler]

I don't think you can look at the hiring of Zook in isolation. It was only a part of MM's overall attempt to fix what has been wrong with special teams for a while now. MM's answer to the problem required 4 moves. Individually, not one of the moves raises on eyebrow. As a collective approach to solving a problem, it looks odd, especially with the absence of the 5th and overriding move, the firing of Slocom.

Ultimately, Slocom bears responsibility for the performance of the special teams. Has he been held accountable, or have others been made the scapegoats if not in fact at least in perception??

[bobblehead]

Well, hope he comes back. What about Woody? Haven't seen him for awhile either. Maybe he died? I sorta enjoyed Woody's psycho posts.

I could try to fill in for woody if it would make you feel better. With a bit of effort I can create a long incoherent multi colored poorly spaced post.

[bobblehead]

I thought elevating Campen to the top O-line spot at the time he did was ridiculous. The guy had very insignificant coaching experience, and there were proven successful O-line coaches available at the time (I've forgotten who).

Alex Gibbs was available very early on. My gripe with Campen is that he never worked in ZBS during his career. To my knowledge he never worked under a coach that taught it. Yet he was the choice to be the OL coach on a team that was running a Denver style ZBS using the cut blocks that Campen never executed during his career.

[Patler]

Alex Gibbs was available very early on. My gripe with Campen is that he never worked in ZBS during his career. To my knowledge he never worked under a coach that taught it. Yet he was the choice to be the OL coach on a team that was running a Denver style ZBS using the cut blocks that Campen never executed during his career.

Campen's resume before being named the OL Coach was one year as Assistant OL in Green Bay and two years as Offensive Quality Control in Green Bay. Before that, he spent a few years as a high school coach.

[mraynrand]

Campen's resume before being named the OL Coach was one year as Assistant OL in Green Bay and two years as Offensive Quality Control in Green Bay. Before that, he spent a few years as a high school coach.

http://m.c.lnkd.licdn.com/mpr/pub/image-MHkpJWfdpBFIImU_yVxxRquIXCpCQkv1LDkV0THdXm0mcZF0MH kVpgGdXUNqcCi4ntS-/eric-baranczyk.jpg
That never stopped Eric from living his dream!
http://www.packersnews.com/graphics/promos/christlbaranczyk.jpg

[pbmax]

Alex Gibbs was available very early on. My gripe with Campen is that he never worked in ZBS during his career. To my knowledge he never worked under a coach that taught it. Yet he was the choice to be the OL coach on a team that was running a Denver style ZBS using the cut blocks that Campen never executed during his career.

Gibbs->Jagodzinski->Philbin->Campen.

I think Campen was Philbin's assistant for a year of ZBS under the immortal Jeff Jagodzinski.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Well, hope he comes back. What about Woody? Haven't seen him for awhile either. Maybe he died? I sorta enjoyed Woody's psycho posts.

I believe he got a timeout, sent to his room, whatever you want to call it. I believe that his ranting against rand was what got him kicked for a while.

[ThunderDan]

I believe he got a timeout, sent to his room, whatever you want to call it. I believe that his ranting against rand was what got him kicked for a while.

And pbmax and Joemailman and ...............

[Patler]

Gibbs->Jagodzinski->Philbin->Campen.

I think Campen was Philbin's assistant for a year of ZBS under the immortal Jeff Jagodzinski.

Now you are bringing back memories of why I questioned MM's original staff so much. He talked about the "secrets" of the ZBS that very few understood, secrets which Jagodzinski would pass on to Philbin, who had no experience with it. But, as I recall, Jagodzinski had only one year of it himself, and he seemed like a somewhat of an odd choice for OC to begin. SO there was some big secret system being taught by a guy who barely understood it to guys who had no experience with it.

Not that I believed the "secret formula" talk, but MM's decription/plan didn't support his propaganda.

Than after a year Jagodzinski takes another step toward his dream job of eventually coaching the Omaha Nightwaks, and bolts from GB to BC.

[mraynrand]

SO there was some big secret system being taught by a guy who barely understood it to guys who had no experience with it.

That always works well.

Gibbs->Jagodzinski->Philbin->Campen.

Yoda -> Obi Wan -> Annakin -> Jar Jar

[pbmax]

Now you are bringing back memories of why I questioned MM's original staff so much. He talked about the "secrets" of the ZBS that very few understood, secrets which Jagodzinski would pass on to Philbin, who had no experience with it. But, as I recall, Jagodzinski had only one year of it himself, and he seemed like a somewhat of an odd choice for OC to begin. SO there was some big secret system being taught by a guy who barely understood it to guys who had no experience with it.

Not that I believed the "secret formula" talk, but MM's decription/plan didn't support his propaganda.

Than after a year Jagodzinski takes another step toward his dream job of eventually coaching the Omaha Nightwaks, and bolts from GB to BC.

Jags looked golden after 2 years with Boston College. And then everything went to pieces.

Jags had 2 years with Gibbs I think. One year as TE coach and another as OLine coach. Gibbs was a consultant the year Jags was the OL coach.

The blowhard is back in college. I don't think the ZBS is nearly that complicated, though Gibbs may be that exacting. Shanahan has run it for years successfully without Gibbs and with multiple O Line coaches. Gibbs keeps partially retiring and holding grudges, even for an OLine guy, he is a bit odd.

If you can teach an O line to block with zone principles (you block what is in an area, not a specific player) you can teach ZBS.

[bobblehead]

Gibbs->Jagodzinski->Philbin->Campen.

I think Campen was Philbin's assistant for a year of ZBS under the immortal Jeff Jagodzinski.

And when GB lost jagodzinski, they lost the ability to run the ZBS nearly as effectively.

[bobblehead]

Jags looked golden after 2 years with Boston College. And then everything went to pieces.

Jags had 2 years with Gibbs I think. One year as TE coach and another as OLine coach. Gibbs was a consultant the year Jags was the OL coach.

The blowhard is back in college. I don't think the ZBS is nearly that complicated, though Gibbs may be that exacting. Shanahan has run it for years successfully without Gibbs and with multiple O Line coaches. Gibbs keeps partially retiring and holding grudges, even for an OLine guy, he is a bit odd.

If you can teach an O line to block with zone principles (you block what is in an area, not a specific player) you can teach ZBS.

But the cut block, and specifically, the backside cut is an art form. The only guy I ever really thought did it well was Darren College, and he got pushed around too much in pass pro.

[pbmax]

But the cut block, and specifically, the backside cut is an art form. The only guy I ever really thought did it well was Darren College, and he got pushed around too much in pass pro.

I agree, but they abandoned it not simply because of Jags leaving, but because Clifton and Tauscher were terrible at it. Watch Starks' runs this year, Bach and Bank have a lot of backside guys on the ground. Campen could teach it with the right tackles I believe.

[Fritz]

But now, if it is to believed that Van Rotten was let go because the Packers wanted to "get bigger," does that mean that MM is going to a more power-blocking scheme?

[Pugger]

But now, if it is to believed that Van Rotten was let go because the Packers wanted to "get bigger," does that mean that MM is going to a more power-blocking scheme?

Prob now with Lacy back there. These big guys will help keep Aaron upright too, hopefully.

[QBME]

But now, if it is to believed that Van Rotten was let go because the Packers wanted to "get bigger," does that mean that MM is going to a more power-blocking scheme?

It may have been a gratuitous grin fuck they gave the agent. Easier to tell him they "want to get bigger" than to tell him that "after year end evaluations, we've decided your guy sucks and we see limited/no potential for significant improvement".

[3irty1]

At center the Packers have been trying to get bigger for Ted/MM's entire time here. That was the reason cited for the Spitz experiment way back when. Big centers are in high demand now that half the teams in the NFL are running a 3-4 but also seems to be something that has been on McCarthy's wishlist for some time. I wouldn't take it to mean that the Packers have new priorities in selecting offensive lineman or expect it to amount to a significant change in the foundations of McCarthy's offense. We're still going to run as many zbs running plays as ever. They're just going to work better now because Lacy is good.

[pbmax]

But now, if it is to believed that Van Rotten was let go because the Packers wanted to "get bigger," does that mean that MM is going to a more power-blocking scheme?

They already have moved that way, but as 3irty1 points out, the desire to be larger on the O line predates Lacy.

I hope they keep the zone stuff because Starks was flat out taking advantage of Defenses who were not ready for it after a week of prep for Lacy.

To simplify the scheme, I can see them keeping Franklin and Harris, saying goodbye to Starks and running mainly power. But this year it was a wonder to behold.

[Fritz]

They already have moved that way, but as 3irty1 points out, the desire to be larger on the O line predates Lacy.

I hope they keep the zone stuff because Starks was flat out taking advantage of Defenses who were not ready for it after a week of prep for Lacy.

To simplify the scheme, I can see them keeping Franklin and Harris, saying goodbye to Starks and running mainly power. But this year it was a wonder to behold.


Despite Starks's frequent injuries, I would like to see the team bring him back if he's at all affordable. Man, he ran angry, and he seemed to go North-South pretty much right away, and if he was running outside he'd pick his moment and then cut and go.

Every week, MM kept talking about wanting to get Starks more carries. Every week, he'd pound Lacy, even an injured Lacy, into the ground. I'd like to have seen Starks get a few more carries each game. The dude did some damage and was a nice counter to Lacy. After having to tackle Lacy most of the day, it would suck to see Starks coming at you like a train. That's a lot different than seeing Jonathan Franklin, for whom I hold out little hope.

[oldbutnotdeadyet]

Despite Starks's frequent injuries, I would like to see the team bring him back if he's at all affordable. Man, he ran angry, and he seemed to go North-South pretty much right away, and if he was running outside he'd pick his moment and then cut and go.

Every week, MM kept talking about wanting to get Starks more carries. Every week, he'd pound Lacy, even an injured Lacy, into the ground. I'd like to have seen Starks get a few more carries each game. The dude did some damage and was a nice counter to Lacy. After having to tackle Lacy most of the day, it would suck to see Starks coming at you like a train. That's a lot different than seeing Jonathan Franklin, for whom I hold out little hope.

I'm with you. I'd take Starks over Franklin any day and twice on Sunday. Unfortunately, I don't think the money gods are gonna agree with us.

[Bretsky]

i can't take this fucking place anymore

most you fucking idiots have your heads so far up the teams ass that you can't smell the shit

fuck this place

packer rats, home to the best packer cool aid around

DRINK UP


ALRIGHT F'CKER GET YOUR ASS BACK IN HERE; with WIST sporadic and you TRYING TO BAIL I've got little support in here

Who chased this guy out anyways ???

Stop being a P@SS and GET YOUR ASS BACK HERE

[mraynrand]

ALRIGHT F'CKER GET YOUR ASS BACK IN HERE; with WIST sporadic and you TRYING TO BAIL I've got little support in here

Who chased this guy out anyways ???

Stop being a P@SS and GET YOUR ASS BACK HERE


He got tired of all of us kissing Stubby's fat white rear end. We have all bought into the TT propaganda. TT - his method of building a team is the pivotal experiment of the new millennium.

[mraynrand]

I'm with you. I'd take Starks over Franklin any day and twice on Sunday. Unfortunately, I don't think the money gods are gonna agree with us.


Hate to lose the Stark Plug - but all good things come to an end. However, don't ever forget that he is Injury Prone!

[bobblehead]

ALRIGHT F'CKER GET YOUR ASS BACK IN HERE; with WIST sporadic and you TRYING TO BAIL I've got little support in here

Who chased this guy out anyways ???

Stop being a P@SS and GET YOUR ASS BACK HERE

I am sensing a theme here, and its not that anyone is chasing Red out, but rather Red is an intolerant &%)#.

[pbmax]

posted elsewhere on this site: http://packerrats.com/showthread.php?26364-coaching-rotation-is-starting&p=775003&viewfull=1#post775003

Demovsky dances around the idea that Green leaving was possibly a shot across Capers bow.

http://espn.go.com/blog/green-bay-packers/post/_/id/7844/capers-understands-greenes-decision

[3irty1]

Also this:
http://espn.go.com/blog/green-bay-packers/post/_/id/7827/mccarthy-capers-will-fix-defense-together

You read through that and McCarthy is echoing some of what posters have said on this forum over the last two years.


We've got to address the fact that we don’t have control over exactly who’s available each week,” McCarthy said. “So something has to adjust or charge or emphasize. I think it’s a very practical approach, a common-sense approach. The availability of our players, we don't have nine guys on defense that average 1,000 reps a year -- we never have -- so let's quit training our defense that way. That’s really what it comes down to.

And


Rather, he’s shooting for a more-creativity, less-volume approach.

Couldn't have said it better myself! This defense is nothing but volume, when things don't work there is no tried and true play that we've practiced a million times and never make a mistake in, especially with backups. But in the same article we get a quote from Dom:


What we did the first year when we came in, I think it’s just a matter of getting a group and figuring out what they can do the best and adapting what they do to what we do best.

There is at least lip service to doing what good coaches do, aka, fitting the scheme to the personnel but that second part erases it. I'm not going to sensationalize and claim that Capers is an incompetent heroin addict or anything but I'm glad that MM seems to be giving him some direction this offseason. He might be too much of a mad scientist for his own good.

[Smidgeon]

It sounds like this will be the year that GB finally goes to a multiples defense. I could be reading too much into this, but I was under the impression when Capers was brought in that the defense would be 3-4 some snaps, 4-3 other snaps, and a whole lot of unknown for the opposing offenses. Then the 3-4 won the Super Bowl, Raji looked like he was competing for best drafted player in the 2009 draft, Woodson turned his game up a notch, Collins was the second coming, and I forgot about the multiples thing. Let's be honest, the 2010 defense was something incredibly special.

[red]

It sounds like this will be the year that GB finally goes to a multiples defense. I could be reading too much into this, but I was under the impression when Capers was brought in that the defense would be 3-4 some snaps, 4-3 other snaps, and a whole lot of unknown for the opposing offenses. Then the 3-4 won the Super Bowl, Raji looked like he was competing for best drafted player in the 2009 draft, Woodson turned his game up a notch, Collins was the second coming, and I forgot about the multiples thing. Let's be honest, the 2010 defense was something incredibly special.

that was my take too. what M3 is saying we are going to do this year, is the same damn thing we were suppose to be doing this whole time

and M3 saying things are gonna change on D this year is nothing new, i'm pretty sure he's said that every year.

its all just ear candy until we actually see a change on the field. M3 is just telling the fans what they want to hear, with him, thats no guarantee that anything will change

[3irty1]

What Dom said sounds like typical coach-speak to me but McCarthy's sounds like it has substance there. His critique of the defense is too logical to just be camera talk. Perhaps we're going more multiple but it sounds like overall there will be less volume, not more.

[pbmax]

What Dom said sounds like typical coach-speak to me but McCarthy's sounds like it has substance there. His critique of the defense is too logical to just be camera talk. Perhaps we're going more multiple but it sounds like overall there will be less volume, not more.

Great find 3irty1. Did not see that article mentioned by anyone and its the best one on the defense this offseason.

I think McCarthy has hit the nail on the head. But I wonder what Capers thinks they do best as a baseline. Because its been all over the map the last three years. So its hard to parse his sentence and determine whether he has finally figured out that he has to adopt the skills of his new groups to what he does, or he is still trying to fit them into the same spaces.

McCarthy has all but said he wants to dictate to the opposing offense. Its no wonder he interviewed Williams.

[3irty1]

When you look at the breadth of what MM has said regarding the defense this season it sounds like the scheme isn't what will change but rather the roles of the players in it and the training required to get them there. He's talked about moving around Neal, Datone Jones both inside and outside. He's talked about Perry taking snaps on the right side where its more natural for him. Giving Hyde looks at safety and CB. The thinking is consistent with what he's done on the offense. Every WR is taught to lineup anywhere and run the full tree. Every TE gets reps as an H-back. He's infamous for what we called "musical chairs" on the offensive line.

I think that's what we'll see is less volume but more variance by moving and substituting guys. Dedication to this before the season starts should lead to more flexibility when injuries start accumulating because there will be more ways to get your best 11 on the field.

[pbmax]

Okey dokey. We had Demovsky dancing around the issue that Mike was delivering a message to Capers about the D. Here is Wilde with the other side of the coin, the fact that McCarthy knows he only has so much time in a week and he needs to spend what coaching time he has with his QB and his game plan.

So Dom might get a new set of goals or focus points in the offseason, but he is still going to be handling the D from camp on through the season without increased input from McCarthy.

A very good interview with the coach and his approach to choosing his focus.

http://www.espnwisconsin.com/common/page.php?feed=2&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&id=13341&is_corp=1



It’s not a high concern on my list. I’ve done this long enough, I’ve seen it at the highest level now, I’ve been blessed to be around great quarterbacks, I’ve been able to watch relationships, I’ve been able to have more than one relationship. Part of that’s just part of the deal. The longer guys play the more opinionated [they get]. That’s the reality of it. Where I’ve got to be better, too, and I think I have, is not being as critical of him and the expectations because we do put a lot on his plate compared to five years ago, where [it was], ‘I called this, do this.’ Now. we’re calling this and it has four prongs or three prongs.

[woodbuck27]

so fritz, if he does stay 2 more years, he will have been the packers HC for 10 years

the second longest tenure in packer history only behind curly and his almost 30 years as a head coach.

after this next season he will have number all to himself, passing vince and bart, two packer legends though one wasn't a legend for his coaching

is he really that good? does he really deserve to reign that long in the most stories franchise in nfl history?

to me, he's peaked as a packer coach. i don't think he has what it takes to get us another super bowl, and he's just wasting the best years of our current HOF QB. and this last line can be applied to TT also

I read that and ...no kidding.

I cannot wait to see how this off season and season unwind.

Sadly I wouldn't bet a nickel on the Green Bay Packers and success in 2014.

There are just too many issues right now and as usual I see too much stagnation. This is sad for me to observe.

[woodbuck27]

red's saving grace is two-fold. When people freak out at his pessimism, he gets funnier, not loonier. Unlike a lot of posters whose panic grows worse under stress.

The second is my strong suspicion that if the Packers were rebuilding, he would be more sedate. I could be wrong about that.

Really what are the Packers doing right now pbmax?

Is there one member here that actually know the correct answer to that question?

What in hell is going on with TT and MM and the Green Bay Packers?

Someone...anyone here PLEASE help red and I and others that aren't all "jolly jumper fuzzy good feeling" about what we're seeing.

I feel like a homeless person might feel having to extract my meals out of a dumpster.

TT and MM don't give me much satisfaction....in terms of that team attitude approach I'm so high on. Always been high on as I've always felt like a winner but not now not with the Green Bay Packers.

It's NOT at al about winning. it's something more basic. A philosophical attitude I understand and can easily accept.

Where in hell is that and the Green Bay Packer management. That management as I view it lives in some vacuum of a pseudo paranoia. That clearly burns my ass. If I feel any frustration it's never for long as I'm a realist and know as a Packer fan I'm powerless unless more Packer fans see it as red and I and wist43 and others here do.

What do we get for seeing it our way. Ridicule and stinking rotten attitudes and derision from members that imagine their smarter than red and wist43 and woodbuck27. Smarter members with all manners of immature and rotten attitude. Members that imagine their somehow more tuned in or smarter and that we may deem are contradictory to that ....simply ... blind.

Expressed another more popular way.

Members in concert and always drinking that kool aid of delusion. My position is simply this:

For all of "YOU' that have signed up for it and carry that card...drink away. Heck drink yourselves more blind. Fill your boots. Your on one side and I'm on another. We see it simply differently. It's no huge deal. None of us has any real way to exercise something to influence a positive outcome except for through karma.

2011-13 ..what's changing the water on the beans? I'm not seeing what I feel we all deserve to see and that change in direction or attitude /philosophy. Some others here are somehow seeing it exactly to similarly as I do.

Is that really so shocking !?

[red]

right on woody

[mraynrand]

This is my suggestion for all those who can't stand Packer management: Take a tour through the blogs and online papers of the other 31 teams and see what you think (or, even pick the top 5 best teams other than the Packers). Then come back and evaluate TT and Stubby.

[red]

well thats just it, on other blogs and forums for other teams, the posters and writers are allowed to talk bad about the team and management. this site is cool aid central where the team can never do any wrong

look at other packer sites, they're having open discussions about things we aren't allowed to talk about or bring up. they have real discussions about thats that if brought up here, would result in the poster being a "crazy lunatic that obviously has no clue what they are talking about".

site is like the germans under hitler. "no, he's a good man, he's just trying to protect us from everybody else that wants to hurt us. that smoke and smell is nothing, its just the fuhrers way of showing his love to all the children"
mad should name this place delusionville

i have a feeling that is the guy who sweeps up after games in section 121 came up to you and said, "you know, the packer organization feel that it would be best forthe organization if you lowered your head and ran as fast as you can into that wall", three quarters of the people on here would say "OH yes sir, whatever you say mr packer employee person, if the team feels that would be the best thing to do. the teams never wrong about anything"

[denverYooper]

well thats just it, on other blogs and forums for other teams, the posters and writers are allowed to talk bad about the team and management. this site is cool aid central where the team can never do any wrong

look at other packer sites, they're having open discussions about things we aren't allowed to talk about or bring up. they have real discussions about thats that if brought up here, would result in the poster being a "crazy lunatic that obviously has no clue what they are talking about".

site is like the germans under hitler. "no, he's a good man, he's just trying to protect us from everybody else that wants to hurt us. that smoke and smell is nothing, its just the fuhrers way of showing his love to all the children"
mad should name this place delusionville

i have a feeling that is the guy who sweeps up after games in section 121 came up to you and said, "you know, the packer organization feel that it would be best forthe organization if you lowered your head and ran as fast as you can into that wall", three quarters of the people on here would say "OH yes sir, whatever you say mr packer employee person, if the team feels that would be the best thing to do. the teams never wrong about anything"

This rant coming in a thread called "MMs management style" wherein a respected poster offers a criticism of said management and other regular posters more or less agree. Then, surprisingly, dissenting opinions appear that move the discussion along. Point-counterpoint-etc, etc.

Aaaaaand then Godwin's Law.

[mraynrand]

Red, that's not even close to true. Simple example: "Stubby" stands for stubborn and tubby - because McCarthy is stubborn to a fault and overweight. The critiques of Thompson and Stubby are legion on this site. Your rant is pretty much the polar opposite - basically says that if we don't rant, we're Kool Aid drinkers. If that's how you want it, so be it, but it doesn't really invite any back and forth - kinda like trying to discuss Capers with Wist.

[mraynrand]

site is like the germans under hitler. "no, he's a good man, he's just trying to protect us from everybody else that wants to hurt us.

I was a real fan of Hitler until the Beer Hall Putsch and then the whole Mein Kampf blog. Just hanging with my peeps trying quaff a few lagers and ogle the blondes at the rathskeller and the guy goes all emo on us. How lame was that? #likeinsanemuch?

[denverYooper]

I was a real fan of Hitler until the Beer Hall Putsch and then the whole Mein Kampf blog. Just hanging with my peeps trying quaff a few lagers and ogle the blondes at the rathskeller and the guy goes all emo on us. How lame was that? #likeinsanemuch?

No kidding, the guy loses a painting contest or two and everything goes to shit.

[mraynrand]

The more I reflect on it, the more Stubby does parallel Hitler. It really is eerie. Thompson doesn't make for a realistic Von Hindenburg though. too much power, too stable on his feet. Maybe a pointy hat would help.

[pbmax]

No kidding, the guy loses a painting contest or two and everything goes to shit.

That's why I would ban all those send in a submission Art Schools that advertise on TV. Just asking for trouble.

[Joemailman]

well thats just it, on other blogs and forums for other teams, the posters and writers are allowed to talk bad about the team and management. this site is cool aid central where the team can never do any wrong

look at other packer sites, they're having open discussions about things we aren't allowed to talk about or bring up. they have real discussions about thats that if brought up here, would result in the poster being a "crazy lunatic that obviously has no clue what they are talking about".



Actually Red, the only person acting that way is you. I didn't find any instances in this thread, which has almost 100 responses, of anyone calling you a crazy lunatic. You, on the other hand, had this to say:


i can't take this fucking place anymore

most you fucking idiots have your heads so far up the teams ass that you can't smell the shit

fuck this place

packer rats, home to the best packer cool aid around

DRINK UP

So who is it that can't handle an open discussion of differing views?

[Zool]

well thats just it, on other blogs and forums for other teams, the posters and writers are allowed to talk bad about the team and management. this site is cool aid central where the team can never do any wrong

look at other packer sites, they're having open discussions about things we aren't allowed to talk about or bring up. they have real discussions about thats that if brought up here, would result in the poster being a "crazy lunatic that obviously has no clue what they are talking about".

site is like the germans under hitler. "no, he's a good man, he's just trying to protect us from everybody else that wants to hurt us. that smoke and smell is nothing, its just the fuhrers way of showing his love to all the children"
mad should name this place delusionville

i have a feeling that is the guy who sweeps up after games in section 121 came up to you and said, "you know, the packer organization feel that it would be best forthe organization if you lowered your head and ran as fast as you can into that wall", three quarters of the people on here would say "OH yes sir, whatever you say mr packer employee person, if the team feels that would be the best thing to do. the teams never wrong about anything"

Are you fucking kidding? If there were any more chicken littles on this site, the sky might actually fall down. If watching football makes you this upset you should stop watching. If you are trying to point out fault to make yourself look smart, it's not working. If this is all an internet persona, carry on.

To call this a Kool-aid site is just more complaining that gets many others to agree with you. If anything it's quite the opposite. And the only people who get an involuntary break from this place are trolls who get warned like 6000 times.

[mraynrand]

most you fucking idiots have your heads so far up the teams ass that you can't smell the shit

that's factually untrue. With my head that far up Stubby's ass, it's not even shit yet, it's just partially digested Golden Corral buffet. It still smells like chicken and corn at that point. I can take the accusations and the ranting, but can we at least maintain some scientific accuracy?

[Zool]

With my head that far up Stubby's ass, it's not even shit yet, it's just partially digested Golden Corral buffet.

So THAT's what they mean by chocolate fountain.

[Patler]

well thats just it, on other blogs and forums for other teams, the posters and writers are allowed to talk bad about the team and management. this site is cool aid central where the team can never do any wrong

look at other packer sites, they're having open discussions about things we aren't allowed to talk about or bring up. they have real discussions about thats that if brought up here, would result in the poster being a "crazy lunatic that obviously has no clue what they are talking about".

site is like the germans under hitler. "no, he's a good man, he's just trying to protect us from everybody else that wants to hurt us. that smoke and smell is nothing, its just the fuhrers way of showing his love to all the children"
mad should name this place delusionville

i have a feeling that is the guy who sweeps up after games in section 121 came up to you and said, "you know, the packer organization feel that it would be best forthe organization if you lowered your head and ran as fast as you can into that wall", three quarters of the people on here would say "OH yes sir, whatever you say mr packer employee person, if the team feels that would be the best thing to do. the teams never wrong about anything"

Red; with all due respect, what your are talking about on many other sites is not open discussion, its a lynch mob mentality.

I am often critical of things Packer related, yet I suspect many of you will label me as one of the leading TT and MM apologists simply because I rarely throw my hands in the air screaming "fire the lot of 'em!" I don't think you can read any of my posts in this thread without acknowledging that each is critical of MM. But, I have also directly stated that I am not advocating his firing, just change in his approach.

As for TT, I said from the beginning that I really liked his approach to remaking the roster, but a critical juncture would be when the team is on the doorstep of championships and whether he can switch from a roster building mentality to to one of filling critical missing parts for championship runs. I have recently stated (without advocating his firing) that so far he has not shown that he has that ability. On the other hand, I will not jump on the "he blew the Shields deal" bandwagon either, because we know absolutely nothing about what the negotiations have entailed.

Very good companies pick good people and help them to get even better. Very good companies make a lot of mistakes, but learn from them and become better. I don't look at the Packers any differently. TT and MM are good but not perfect. Hopefully they continue to grow and get better.

What are the chances of getting better by firing either or both? There are an awful lot of bad coaches out there. Look at the 2006 HC class which besides MM included Jauron, Marinelli, Kubiak, Edwards, Childress, Payton, Mangini, Shell and Linehan. Look at all the ones hired since. How many would you REALLY prefer over MM? A few, maybe; but, there are a lot of factors besides just winning games. Harbaugh seems to have worn out his welcome in SF in spite of being successful on the field. GB is lucky to have a team that seems to work well together. When you have that, you have success, and any year can become 2010 all over again.

Change for the sake of change when it comes to head coaches is generally a poor approach. I lived through Bengtson to Devine, to Starr, to Gregg to Infante. You get excited for the change, and initially see differences, but in the end the final product is just as bad but in different ways than the last time.

No coach or GM is perfect. When you get ones that re better than most, it is best to hang on to them and look for improvement from within rather than ripping it all down and rebuilding.

[red]

Actually Red, the only person acting that way is you. I didn't find any instances in this thread, which has almost 100 responses, of anyone calling you a crazy lunatic. You, on the other hand, had this to say:



So who is it that can't handle an open discussion of differing views?

thats just it, there is no discusion, or allowance of differing views on here

if you don't buy into 100% what the packers are doing, then you're a lunatic asshole on here

[Patler]

thats just it, there is no discusion, or allowance of differing views on here

if you don't buy into 100% what the packers are doing, then you're a lunatic asshole on here

...and unless you scream for heads to roll (especially MM's) you are a cool-aide drinking fool with his head stuck up management's ass.

Opposite side of the same coin.

[red]

Are you fucking kidding? If there were any more chicken littles on this site, the sky might actually fall down. If watching football makes you this upset you should stop watching. If you are trying to point out fault to make yourself look smart, it's not working. If this is all an internet persona, carry on.

To call this a Kool-aid site is just more complaining that gets many others to agree with you. If anything it's quite the opposite. And the only people who get an involuntary break from this place are trolls who get warned like 6000 times.

who's upset

and here we go, if you don't like what the packers are doing, stop watching football. if you don't agree with TT stop watching the packers

and i stand by what i said about most people on here wouldn't question the packers no matter what. if mark murphy walked up and shot your mother in the face right in front of you, most on here would say "oh thank you sir, should have done that long ago, go pack go"

look at the sam shields thread, it didn't take long after TT basically let SS walk before people are now saying "good, he wasn't that good anyways, heres a list of reasons why he isn't any good....." when 2 months ago, it was all "aw man, sam is the best CB we have, he's be one of the top FA 's on the market if he ever gets there, he's awesome".

[red]

...and unless you scream for heads to roll (especially MM's) you are a cool-aide drinking fool with his head stuck up management's ass.

Opposite side of the same coin.

and its me, woody, and wist on the one side, and the other hundred or so on the other side. maybe one or two in the middle

and no, people don't have to scream for stubbies head, just not agree with every fucking thing he does, or see him as a coach with actual faults

[Zool]

who's upset

and here we go, if you don't like what the packers are doing, stop watching football. if you don't agree with TT stop watching the packers

and i stand by what i said about most people on here wouldn't question the packers no matter what. if mark murphy walked up and shot your mother in the face right in front of you, most on here would say "oh thank you sir, should have done that long ago, go pack go"

look at the sam shields thread, it didn't take long after TT basically let SS walk before people are now saying "good, he wasn't that good anyways, heres a list of reasons why he isn't any good....." when 2 months ago, it was all "aw man, sam is the best CB we have, he's be one of the top FA 's on the market if he ever gets there, he's awesome".

Perspective is a hellova thing. People disagree with you and all the sudden you're a victim. Interesting.

[mraynrand]

who's upset

and here we go, if you don't like what the packers are doing, stop watching football. if you don't agree with TT stop watching the packers

and i stand by what i said about most people on here wouldn't question the packers no matter what. if mark murphy walked up and shot your mother in the face right in front of you, most on here would say "oh thank you sir, should have done that long ago, go pack go"

look at the sam shields thread, it didn't take long after TT basically let SS walk before people are now saying "good, he wasn't that good anyways, heres a list of reasons why he isn't any good....." when 2 months ago, it was all "aw man, sam is the best CB we have, he's be one of the top FA 's on the market if he ever gets there, he's awesome".


straw men are the easiest of enemies to defeat.

[wist43]

thats just it, there is no discusion, or allowance of differing views on here

if you don't buy into 100% what the packers are doing, then you're a lunatic asshole on here


...and unless you scream for heads to roll (especially MM's) you are a cool-aide drinking fool with his head stuck up management's ass.

Opposite side of the same coin.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzaN52n44-8

"I'm a bad man... I live on both sides of the fence, my grass is always green" :)

The Rabbi from Lucky Number Slevin

Awesome movie :drma:

[ThunderDan]

and its me, woody, and wist on the one side, and the other hundred or so on the other side. maybe one or two in the middle

and no, people don't have to scream for stubbies head, just not agree with every fucking thing he does, or see him as a coach with actual faults

This whole discussion is funny.

I completely and totally respect Wist because he disagrees and makes his points. I may not agree but he points out what he sees and why.

You on the other hand scream and scream and bitch and moan. I first thought it was just an internet persona but now I am realizing it isn't just that. I remember you bitching about a game where there was nothing to bitch about. It was funny then.

Woody is woody.

[Patler]

look at the sam shields thread, it didn't take long after TT basically let SS walk before people are now saying "good, he wasn't that good anyways, heres a list of reasons why he isn't any good....." when 2 months ago, it was all "aw man, sam is the best CB we have, he's be one of the top FA 's on the market if he ever gets there, he's awesome".

OK, I did go back and look at the Sam Shields thread. Most of the critical comments about Shields as a player are actually very factual ones, stating where he appears on various published lists, with commentary about why the lists have the four, five or six others rated above him and what that might mean for contract offers. Almost everyone implies they would like him back, but not at the level of an elite CB contract. Most express hope that something still can be worked out.

I saw no "Good bye and good riddance" post from anyone. However, I did see several of the opposite, "epic fail" and the like :grin: that suggest the simple fact Shields is a free agent is proof in and of itself that the Packers handled it very poorly.

[KYPack]

On any of these team forums, it usually breaks about 80-20. Most of the fans are pro team and a segment of the posters are anti everything. On here the contrarian group might be a tad smaller, but there is a pretty consistent pulse of people that don't think the team has the right GM or wants sweeping change in the coaching staff. & that's cool. I've been on forums where everybody is pro (or anti) team and those venues are boring as shit.

I don't think you are being criticized or called nuts. The only poster that has stated you were off the beam bc of a point you made recently was me. I thought your point about GB being put in a trick bag during the Shields FA process because Shields could get a funny money offer and then force the Pack to match it in hard dollars was wrong and slightly nuts. I still do, I don't think even Drew Rosenhaus would agree with you on that one. Your point was wrong and not factual, that ain't the way it works. That said, I wanted the Packers to retain Sammy. NFL defense now means you defend the pass. Pass D is coverage and pressure. Minus SS, we aren't as good a coverage group as last season.

TT feels Sam has priced himself outside the Packers salary scheme. I'd hope we can work things around to keep Sam. That doesn't appear like it's gonna happen. I don't like that, but I do recognize that Thompson knows his job infinitely better than many of the naysayers I see on net football forums. The Pack has reached the point many observers have been predicting for 2-3 years. All of these young guys have proven themselves and have mature contracts. We are going to lose some good football talent and it's gonna hurt. Next year will even be worse. We are gonna have 4-5 ripe contracts and we will only keep one or two of those guys. When that happens, people are going to say Thompson is lazy, stubborn, or stupid. Those people will be wrong. Hate the game, not the player.

Speaking of other forums, check out this quote I saw on a Bronco forum...

Quote on

Ozzie Newsome and Ted Thompson were regarded as being among the best GMs in the NFL before they won rings; they were regarded as such because they ran perennially competitive teams who contended for, even if hadn't yet won, the ultimate prize and operated "destination" franchises.

Quote off

I agree with this. Thompson and Newsome have allowed their franchise to defy gravity, stay at or near competitive levels, going to SB's and having top talent over the course of time.

People who attack either guy just ain't paying attention.

[Fritz]

On any of these team forums, it usually breaks about 80-20. Most of the fans are pro team and a segment of the posters are anti everything. On here the contrarian group might be a tad smaller, but there is a pretty consistent pulse of people that don't think the team has the right GM or wants sweeping change in the coaching staff. & that's cool. I've been on forums where everybody is pro (or anti) team and those venues are boring as shit.

I don't think you are being criticized or called nuts. The only poster that has stated you were off the beam bc of a point you made recently was me. I thought your point about GB being put in a trick bag during the Shields FA process because Shields could get a funny money offer and then force the Pack to match it in hard dollars was wrong and slightly nuts. I still do, I don't think even Drew Rosenhaus would agree with you on that one. Your point was wrong and not factual, that ain't the way it works. That said, I wanted the Packers to retain Sammy. NFL defense now means you defend the pass. Pass D is coverage and pressure. Minus SS, we aren't as good a coverage group as last season.

TT feels Sam has priced himself outside the Packers salary scheme. I'd hope we can work things around to keep Sam. That doesn't appear like it's gonna happen. I don't like that, but I do recognize that Thompson knows his job infinitely better than many of the naysayers I see on net football forums. The Pack has reached the point many observers have been predicting for 2-3 years. All of these young guys have proven themselves and have mature contracts. We are going to lose some good football talent and it's gonna hurt. Next year will even be worse. We are gonna have 4-5 ripe contracts and we will only keep one or two of those guys. When that happens, people are going to say Thompson is lazy, stubborn, or stupid. Those people will be wrong. Hate the game, not the player.

Speaking of other forums, check out this quote I saw on a Bronco forum...

Quote on

Ozzie Newsome and Ted Thompson were regarded as being among the best GMs in the NFL before they won rings; they were regarded as such because they ran perennially competitive teams who contended for, even if hadn't yet won, the ultimate prize and operated "destination" franchises.

Quote off

I agree with this. Thompson and Newsome have allowed their franchise to defy gravity, stay at or near competitive levels, going to SB's and having top talent over the course of time.

People who attack either guy just ain't paying attention.

What's weird to me in a sense is that it seems clear TT is about two years or three, tops, from leaving as GM. You'd think a guy in that spot would be like a drunk with a $500 bill in his pocket ten minutes before bar closing. Dude ought to be buying up free agents and trading up for one or two special draft picks and re-signing his own like a drunken sailor - or like Mike Sherman.

But he's not. Where's your legacy, man? Spend your kids' inheritance, Ted! You can't take it with you! Leave the team in shambles, but go for it now! Come on, Ted. You can do it!

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

What's weird to me in a sense is that it seems clear TT is about two years or three, tops, from leaving as GM. You'd think a guy in that spot would be like a drunk with a $500 bill in his pocket ten minutes before bar closing. Dude ought to be buying up free agents and trading up for one or two special draft picks and re-signing his own like a drunken sailor - or like Mike Sherman.

But he's not. Where's your legacy, man? Spend your kids' inheritance, Ted! You can't take it with you! Leave the team in shambles, but go for it now! Come on, Ted. You can do it!

An interesting point Fritz, but I don't think he's going anywhere until Rodgers starts losing it. Thats why he offered Jennings 10mil/year in 2012 and Raji 8 million/year in 2013. Had both agreed we would have much less cap space.

[Fritz]

An interesting point Fritz, but I don't think he's going anywhere until Rodgers starts losing it. Thats why he offered Jennings 10mil/year in 2012 and Raji 8 million/year in 2013. Had both agreed we would have much less cap space.


I certainly don't have any inside info about Ted's or MM's plans, but somehow I get this sense - I guess from the occasional report that TT really prefers scouting to the whole GM shebang, plus his age - that TT only has two or three more seasons left. And once he's gone, I'm not sure how MM can carry on as "just" the coach. and besides that, Stubby has mentioned before he has a definite timeline in mind for this coaching thing.

And though part of me wishes TT would blow some cash on some players, it also wouldn't make sense in the long run. In all our discussions and gnashing of teeth over Shields, rarely has anyone tried to figure out what Nelson and Cobb are going to cost next year, and surely Thompson must factor those prices into whatever he's going to do with Shields.

Ted's nature seems to me to be the type that will try to leave the team on a very green field for his successor. TT is the kind of guy who will leave the next GM with two first round picks, a second, two thirds, and three fourths in his first draft, and the new GM will have a billion dollars in cap space to work with.

But as I said, I do wish TT would unleash the purse strings enough to re-sign Shields and on top of that, Jones, Neal, and a couple others. and maybe even sign one FA to some mid-level deal.

But then again, I still want to date Drew Barrymore, too.