McCarthy and Assistants Speak, Troll Wist

[pbmax]

HC and the assistants spoke today and coughed up the following info:

1. Moss as the sole ILB
...a. Likes idea of having all LBs in the same room. Neal was developed at OLB to play an elephant role in the defense (OLB, DE and some DT). I take this to mean Neal was out there to be wist's 3rd DL in pass rush nickel.
...b. Notes they spend plurality of time in nickel and not base 3-4. Then says there was always just one linebackers coach. Which seems to point to Green really just teaching OLB technique in the base D and not much else?
...c. One OLB coach (even with elephant position) is something Capers has used before (with McClurey being the assistant coach for Moss).
...d. Interviewed other people for ST assistant before hiring Zook. Liked his personality, experience and big-picture thinking. Plus SEC recruiting.
...e. Wanted to add body to ST coaches (had 2nd asst ST coach last year, part time) because of amount of one on one time it takes to get young players ready.

2. Van Pelt as QB coach. Thought he was already a hell of a coach which is why he was comfortable, when opp. presented itself to make him RB coach initially. Thinks that experience will add to his vision as QB coach. Van Pelt has known the offense as long as McCarthy (Univ of Pitt with Paul Hackett) and is a natural there.

3. RB Coach Sam Gash has worked with Van Pelt before and M3 loved the interview.

4. M3 and Moss have no problem with potentially drafting Michael Sam, fresh off outing himself yesterday, if he can play. M3 reiterated that he demands respect for everyone in the locker room and good play on the field. Moss agreed with last part, refused to speculate how it would play in the locker room.

http://www.packersnews.com/article/20140210/PKR0101/140210026/McCarthy-pleased-new-assistants-new-staff-roles-

http://www.packersnews.com/article/20140210/PKR0101/140210023/Players-sexual-orientation-doesn-t-matter-Packers

Tom Silverstein ‏@TomSilverstein 3h
McCarthy says defense will feature changes. Still 3-4, but wants to be more multiple and go back to things done more in the past. #Packers

Mike Vandermause ‏@MikeVandermause 3h
Mike McCarthy says #Packers will make tweaks to defense but will continue to use 3-4 base.

[mraynrand]

So Neal is the Elephant in the room? In the 4-3 under which = 3-4, Neal is EL:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/09/08/sports/08fifthdown-eleph/08fifthdown-eleph-blogSpan.jpg

I like this just fine, with either Perry or Matthews as SL, or Perry as SL and Matthew replacing one of the middle linebackers. Matthews can either rush the passer from a gap, spy the QB, or go into pass coverage. And (watch the steam come out of Wist's ears) you could swap out one DT for a safety (Hayward or Hyde depending on who started) on typical passing downs. I think Wist just hates this when it's there on 1-10 or obvious run downs, but depending on the down and distance, you can swap between hippos (Pickett/Jolly) and PR (Daniels/Jones) as your D-linemen.

UNSOUND!

[pbmax]

So Neal is the Elephant in the room? In the 4-3 under which = 3-4, Neal is EL:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/09/08/sports/08fifthdown-eleph/08fifthdown-eleph-blogSpan.jpg

I like this just fine, with either Perry or Matthews as SL, or Perry as SL and Matthew replacing one of the middle linebackers. Matthews can either rush the passer from a gap, spy the QB, or go into pass coverage. And (watch the steam come out of Wist's ears) you could swap out one DT for a safety (Hayward or Hyde depending on who started) on typical passing downs. I think Wist just hates this when it's there on 1-10 or obvious run downs, but depending on the down and distance, you can swap between hippos (Pickett/Jolly) and PR (Daniels/Jones) as your D-linemen.

UNSOUND!

That could be it, and they do line up that way on the D line in Eagle Oakie. But they are in base so little and Neal was on the field for much more nickel, I wonder if McCarthy was talking about something else, or just using elephant in a very general sense.

[pbmax]

Vic Ketchum, gloms onto the Pitt connection of a new coach and Zook being from both Pittsburgh (Capers old stomping ground) and with McCarthy in New Orleans.

http://www.packers.com/news-and-events/article-1/Mike-McCarthys-vision-links-new-coaches/36bc650e-6284-4dd6-83d3-2cf83ea88d2e?campaign=social_20140211_18366024

[pbmax]

Jason Wilde ‏@jasonjwilde 6m
Duh! moment for me: Looking up Capers past staff structures, #49ers off. coord. Greg Roman was his QBs coach in HOU. Knows his scheme a bit.

[call_me_ishmael]

Vic Fangio, the other SF coordinator, was the DC for Capers in both Carolina and Houston. Kinda crazy actually.

[Patler]

Jason Wilde ‏@jasonjwilde 6m
Duh! moment for me: Looking up Capers past staff structures, #49ers off. coord. Greg Roman was his QBs coach in HOU. Knows his scheme a bit.

Where was Wilde when that was being talked about two years ago?

[mraynrand]

That could be it, and they do line up that way on the D line in Eagle Oakie. But they are in base so little and Neal was on the field for much more nickel, I wonder if McCarthy was talking about something else, or just using elephant in a very general sense.

who was on the field for the Eagle Oakie in 2010 as opposed to 2013?

[pbmax]

who was on the field for the Eagle Oakie in 2010 as opposed to 2013?

Don't remember if they ran in in 2010. I think it might have been toyed with in 2011 and implemented full time in 2012. I think 2010 was straight base Oakie (1 NT, 2 5-tech Des) and the beloved 2-4 nickel.

[wist43]

So Neal is the Elephant in the room? In the 4-3 under which = 3-4, Neal is EL:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/09/08/sports/08fifthdown-eleph/08fifthdown-eleph-blogSpan.jpg

I like this just fine, with either Perry or Matthews as SL, or Perry as SL and Matthew replacing one of the middle linebackers. Matthews can either rush the passer from a gap, spy the QB, or go into pass coverage. And (watch the steam come out of Wist's ears) you could swap out one DT for a safety (Hayward or Hyde depending on who started) on typical passing downs. I think Wist just hates this when it's there on 1-10 or obvious run downs, but depending on the down and distance, you can swap between hippos (Pickett/Jolly) and PR (Daniels/Jones) as your D-linemen.

UNSOUND!

You guys just can't help yourselves, can you - you're like little Dom Capers apostles, lol...

What you're showing there is close to a standard 3-4, in that at least by definition you have 3 DL, and 4 LB's on the field.


...you could swap out one DT for a safety

Then you can't wait to get one of the fat guys off the field, and replace him with a DB - which gets you right back to your, and Dom's, beloved 2-4!!!

Haven't you guys seen enough of that sieve of a defense?? Seriously, how many times do you need to see a team line up in 3rd and 6, and simply run it down our throats for a 1st down?? Or when Dom comes out in that idiotic alignment on 1st and 10 and gives up an easy 7 yd run?? I know I'm sick to death of watching that mess... you guys really are masochistic.

Pure and simple - Dom has not been putting alignments on the field that play to the strengths of the front seven personnel TT has drafted. The result has been a disgustingly futile defense for 3 years running - setting a league record in '11 for futility.

To maximize the talent available, Dom needs to go to more 3-4 base fronts with Pickett, Jolly, Wilson, and Boyd on the line; and then the first nickel subpackage should be a 3-3 that mixes and matches D. Jones, Raji, Neal, Worthy, Daniels, Mulumba, Matthews, Jolly, Perry, and Hawk.

Now of course Raji and Neal are going to be gone next year; Wilson and Jolly likely won't be back; Brad Jones was a wasted contract; Hawk is as pedestrian as ever; Perry is miscast, and it isn't likely that he will ever be used properly - he'll play out his rookie contract and run screaming for freedom as soon as he can... in short, our front seven is as big a mess as it ever was.

The Packers as an organization - TT, MM, Capers, the defensive staff, and the scouts, have made a monumental mess of the front seven (six by their reckoning).

With all of the departures, and with Capers remaining in the drivers seat - I see next year as being a complete mess. Maybe MM will exert some influence on Capers and force him to play more straight up 3-4, but his first subpackage is still going to be the 2-4.

[mraynrand]

To maximize the talent available, Dom needs to go to more 3-4 base fronts with Pickett, Jolly, Wilson, and Boyd on the line

Seriously, you want to put three DTs and Wilson on the field. There's zero pass rush threat there; I just audible to a pass or, if I'm SF, I sprint Kap right around that mess - to the opposite side of Matthews.

Neal and Perry are converted DEs; they should be able to run defend with fatties like Jolly and Pickett, or take one out and put in Jones if you like and have Matthews outside that. You should be able to defend run and pass with that. They did OK against the run in SF doing pretty much just that. Too bad the safety play and ILBs were terrible.

[pbmax]

wist might have meant those four DL rotate in three positions?

However, I think I have found a bigger issue. In his write-ups for the press conference where the tweaks for 2014 were discussed, Wilde recorded this gem:


McCarthy acknowledged that part of the issue with the defensive scheme was not having the full complement of players for much of the season – outside linebacker Clay Matthews’ twice-broken thumb was the biggest blow but not the only injury the unit endured – and that personnel did factor into how the scheme was run.

But, McCarthy also said that the defense didn’t utilize as many varied personnel groups as he would prefer, and that may be where the changes will come in.

“We’re going through scheme evaluation [right now],” McCarthy said. “We were not as multiple maybe this year as we’ve been in prior years really because of the stress of injuries on that unit, so we want to get back to some of the things that we did very well in the past and make sure we’re carrying enough packages to utilize all of our players.

Which to my way of remembering (getting worse but the day) means more psycho, and I don't remember a 3-3 nickel. However, you could see 4-4 versus run fronts like with Howard Green against the Jets.

But jump to the next comment to witness the real news.

http://www.espnwisconsin.com/common/page.php?feed=2&id=13081&is_corp=1

[pbmax]

Same article, this was articulated: (http://www.espnwisconsin.com/common/page.php?feed=2&id=13081&is_corp=1)


“Our defense is going to change some. You don’t ever stay the same,” McCarthy said as he stood outside the Bart Starr Room inside the Legends Club at Lambeau Field. “I’ll set the vision for the defense; Dom Capers and the defensive staff will carry it out. There will be some adjustments.”

Now, this is pretty standard coach speak about setting a vision. And I have not seen the video of his PC so I am missing context, but in the article, it looks like McCarthy is ordering up more personnel groups to play to maximize their strengths.

Not exactly revolutionary. But when a HC with one background starts making demands of the other side of the field, I get nervous. For reference, see Rex Ryan's offense.

[Patler]

Same article, this was articulated: (http://www.espnwisconsin.com/common/page.php?feed=2&id=13081&is_corp=1)



Now, this is pretty standard coach speak about setting a vision. And I have not seen the video of his PC so I am missing context, but in the article, it looks like McCarthy is ordering up more personnel groups to play to maximize their strengths.

Not exactly revolutionary. But when a HC with one background starts making demands of the other side of the field, I get nervous. For reference, see Rex Ryan's offense.

Have to admit, that was my gut reaction, too. Of course, as an offensive guy he can convey what gives him trouble, and ask Capers to devise things employing those.

On the other hand, MM may be entering another phase in his career, one in which he will be less tolerant and more meddling. It kind of strikes me that he has had his fill of under-performance from the STs and defense, which have wasted three seasons of a championship caliber offense.

[bobblehead]

With all of the departures, and with Capers remaining in the drivers seat - I see next year as being a complete mess. Maybe MM will exert some influence on Capers and force him to play more straight up 3-4, but his first subpackage is still going to be the 2-4.

This is where I totally disagree with you. I think its MM and the "don't let them get a big play" attitude that is influencing Dom into playing so much 2-4.

[bobblehead]

Same article, this was articulated: (http://www.espnwisconsin.com/common/page.php?feed=2&id=13081&is_corp=1)



Now, this is pretty standard coach speak about setting a vision. And I have not seen the video of his PC so I am missing context, but in the article, it looks like McCarthy is ordering up more personnel groups to play to maximize their strengths.

Not exactly revolutionary. But when a HC with one background starts making demands of the other side of the field, I get nervous. For reference, see Rex Ryan's offense.

I rest my case.

[pbmax]

This is where I totally disagree with you. I think its MM and the "don't let them get a big play" attitude that is influencing Dom into playing so much 2-4.

I think it could be this or "must utilize all talent on roster to get maximum performance".

I guess we will see.

Like I said above, this isn't unusual. Belichick has had his hand in his offense since they switched out the old Parcells/Henning offense for their current one (unfortunately for my example, that occurred after their last Super Bowl). Let's just hope McCarthy is more Hoody or Cowher than Ryan or Lovie Smith.

[3irty1]

McCarthy is certainly not a decorated defensive technician like Dom but McCarthy is an excellent football philosopher and I definitely prefer him calling the shots at the "vision" level of the operation. You can't be a great offensive coach in the NFL without a deep understanding of defenses and you can't be a great headcoach without a a common strategy between the different phases of your team.

[Zool]

You guys just can't help yourselves, can you - you're like little Dom Capers apostles, lol...

What you're showing there is close to a standard 3-4, in that at least by definition you have 3 DL, and 4 LB's on the field.



Then you can't wait to get one of the fat guys off the field, and replace him with a DB - which gets you right back to your, and Dom's, beloved 2-4!!!

Haven't you guys seen enough of that sieve of a defense?? Seriously, how many times do you need to see a team line up in 3rd and 6, and simply run it down our throats for a 1st down?? Or when Dom comes out in that idiotic alignment on 1st and 10 and gives up an easy 7 yd run?? I know I'm sick to death of watching that mess... you guys really are masochistic.

Pure and simple - Dom has not been putting alignments on the field that play to the strengths of the front seven personnel TT has drafted. The result has been a disgustingly futile defense for 3 years running - setting a league record in '11 for futility.

To maximize the talent available, Dom needs to go to more 3-4 base fronts with Pickett, Jolly, Wilson, and Boyd on the line; and then the first nickel subpackage should be a 3-3 that mixes and matches D. Jones, Raji, Neal, Worthy, Daniels, Mulumba, Matthews, Jolly, Perry, and Hawk.

Now of course Raji and Neal are going to be gone next year; Wilson and Jolly likely won't be back; Brad Jones was a wasted contract; Hawk is as pedestrian as ever; Perry is miscast, and it isn't likely that he will ever be used properly - he'll play out his rookie contract and run screaming for freedom as soon as he can... in short, our front seven is as big a mess as it ever was.

The Packers as an organization - TT, MM, Capers, the defensive staff, and the scouts, have made a monumental mess of the front seven (six by their reckoning).

With all of the departures, and with Capers remaining in the drivers seat - I see next year as being a complete mess. Maybe MM will exert some influence on Capers and force him to play more straight up 3-4, but his first subpackage is still going to be the 2-4.

Bellichick said in an article that he ran a ton of 2-4 nickle these last few years. Maybe he's as dumb as Capers? Maybe his D was the only one worse in 2011 than the Packers at stopping the pass (hint, they were worse than the Packers). Bellichick needs to go!

[Fritz]

"I see next year as being a complete mess."

Wist, you see every year as being a complete mess.

[Cheesehead Craig]

"I see next year as being a complete mess."

Wist, you see every year as being a complete mess.

I think he was referring to the country overall. I get his state of America posts confused with his state of the Packers Defense posts. Keep it in FYI wist! ;-)

[pbmax]

We weren’t as multiple as we were in prior years, really because of the stress of the injuries on that unit.

Could also be much ado about nothing (quote from same interview).

http://packerstalk.com/2014/02/12/actual-changes-on-the-packers-defense-or-just-coachspeak/

[wist43]

Bellichick said in an article that he ran a ton of 2-4 nickle these last few years. Maybe he's as dumb as Capers? Maybe his D was the only one worse in 2011 than the Packers at stopping the pass (hint, they were worse than the Packers). Bellichick needs to go!

Get your facts right before you try poking me in the eye... the Packers in 2011 set an NFL record for pass defense futility - 299.8 yds/gm. New England was almost as abysmal at 293.9 yds/gm.

The league average was 229.7 yds/gm.

That said, what New England does, or doesn't do, is none of my concern. I don't like their team, their organization, or Belichick.

Someone on this board actually did some leg work and provided statistical proof that Capers plays more 2-4 than any other team in the league. Am I letting the cat out of the bag by saying that our defense has sucked - seriously sucked - the past few years?? Is this news to you??

[wist43]

This is where I totally disagree with you. I think its MM and the "don't let them get a big play" attitude that is influencing Dom into playing so much 2-4.

We were 24th against the pass, 25th against the run, and 25th overall - I suppose it could have been worse, no??

I guess if the philosophy is, "prevent the big play", then letting them run for 8 yds on 3rd and 6 is safer than having them drop back attempting to pass ;)

This defense has 6 1st round draft picks in the front seven - Perry, Hawk, Matthews, Raji, Jones, and Pickett (Rams); it has 2 2nd round picks - Neal and Worthy; and a decent 4th rounder in Daniels.

That's a lot of investment in personnel to be producing some of the worst numbers in the league.

If Capers isn't to blame, and TT isn't to blame, and MM isn't to blame - then who is to blame?? If none of those guys is to blame, the only other possible answer is Barack Obama - now if you want to blame him?? I will accept that answer.

[call_me_ishmael]

I don't like their team, their organization, or Belichick.

You don't like the best organization (by far) and the best coach in NFL history? Keanu whoa.

[mraynrand]

If Capers isn't to blame, and TT isn't to blame, and MM isn't to blame - then who is to blame??

Apollo is the god of medicine. I blame him.

Sunbeams will be shooting out your ass next season, APRH

[3irty1]

We were 24th against the pass, 25th against the run, and 25th overall - I suppose it could have been worse, no??

I guess if the philosophy is, "prevent the big play", then letting them run for 8 yds on 3rd and 6 is safer than having them drop back attempting to pass ;)

This defense has 6 1st round draft picks in the front seven - Perry, Hawk, Matthews, Raji, Jones, and Pickett (Rams); it has 2 2nd round picks - Neal and Worthy; and a decent 4th rounder in Daniels.

That's a lot of investment in personnel to be producing some of the worst numbers in the league.

If Capers isn't to blame, and TT isn't to blame, and MM isn't to blame - then who is to blame?? If none of those guys is to blame, the only other possible answer is Barack Obama - now if you want to blame him?? I will accept that answer.

I think the issue is probably that they're all just a little bit to blame, but none of them so responsible that they warrant action other than crossing fingers that it doesn't happen again.

TT: There was clearly a combination of draft picks he could have found in 2010, 2011, and 2012 which would have yielded a probowler laden defense (and offense). Also he hired most of this list.

MM: As head coach is inherently responsible for teams failures and successes. As controller of the offense is at least partially responsible for any loss in which the offense didn't score touchdowns and 2-point conversions on every possession, thus leaving points on the field.

Capers: As def coordinator is partially at fault for every yard and point surrendered. Once again put a defense on the field that did not function independently of backup talent and player health--he should know better by now.

Aaron Rodgers: Feasted on precious salary cap then got injured while holding the ball too long. Partially responsible for many incomplete passes representing hundreds of potential points.

Barak Obama: As president shares blame in everything that happens within his sphere of influence. Failed to provide adaquate health care reform including preventative care for dozens of injured Packers. Did not wield power granted by NDAA to detain opposing teams and coaches without council or trial despite clear ties to terrorism (I was terrified most of the season)

[denverYooper]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/p3G49UHb3HlF20FMhSOYqmK4yx3Hh8hUxO_keNdSaKs=w311-h207-p-no

[bobblehead]

McCarthy is certainly not a decorated defensive technician like Dom but McCarthy is an excellent football philosopher and I definitely prefer him calling the shots at the "vision" level of the operation. You can't be a great offensive coach in the NFL without a deep understanding of defenses and you can't be a great headcoach without a a common strategy between the different phases of your team.

It was said that Lombardi was such an offensive mind that he would destroy zone defenses. He thought it was so easy that D coordinators damn near would lie to him when running zone because he would get pissed. I guess my point is that I disagree with your statement at its core. Defensive coaches have the best philosophy on running a defense, not offensive coaches.

[bobblehead]

We were 24th against the pass, 25th against the run, and 25th overall - I suppose it could have been worse, no??

I guess if the philosophy is, "prevent the big play", then letting them run for 8 yds on 3rd and 6 is safer than having them drop back attempting to pass ;)

This defense has 6 1st round draft picks in the front seven - Perry, Hawk, Matthews, Raji, Jones, and Pickett (Rams); it has 2 2nd round picks - Neal and Worthy; and a decent 4th rounder in Daniels.

That's a lot of investment in personnel to be producing some of the worst numbers in the league.

If Capers isn't to blame, and TT isn't to blame, and MM isn't to blame - then who is to blame?? If none of those guys is to blame, the only other possible answer is Barack Obama - now if you want to blame him?? I will accept that answer.

I will agree that probably Obama is to blame, but my point is that we aren't sure who on the packers is to blame. I lean towards MM because I have seen a common thread of lack of aggressiveness from one coordinator to the next with Doms first season or 2 being the only exceptions.

[pbmax]

It was said that Lombardi was such an offensive mind that he would destroy zone defenses. He thought it was so easy that D coordinators damn near would lie to him when running zone because he would get pissed. I guess my point is that I disagree with your statement at its core. Defensive coaches have the best philosophy on running a defense, not offensive coaches.

That is a great point. Because you have designed an offense to abuse zones, doesn't mean it doesn't fit elsewhere. And there is always a team that has the personnel to make the zone work regardless of your offensive design.

Rex Ryan gets into trouble in a different way. He seems game plans and plays that are tough to defend and he tries to adopt that offense or graft the gimmick onto his team. The exact reverse of a sensible construction of an offense.

If McCarthy is setting goals (percentage of big plays allowed, first down rush D) then I have no problem. There used to be an entire Capers playbook floating around on the internet and in the statement of purpose, preventing big plays came right after stopping the run (which was Job 1).

[3irty1]

It was said that Lombardi was such an offensive mind that he would destroy zone defenses. He thought it was so easy that D coordinators damn near would lie to him when running zone because he would get pissed. I guess my point is that I disagree with your statement at its core. Defensive coaches have the best philosophy on running a defense, not offensive coaches.

Seems like you misunderstood me. I'm saying that at the NFL level you've got to have a deep understanding of both sides of the ball because neither exists in a vacuum. I'm also stating that you don't just pick a offensive and defensive philosophy independent of each other because the phases of the game are more coupled than that and I trust McCarthy to be that central planner.

An example might be that I'm head coach of a crappy college team that looks to be the underdog for most of the schedule. I might install a triple option offense because its both a high-variance strategy that provides some big plays as well as a game shortening strategy that eats clock.... giving the better team less chances to demonstrate its superiority and maximizing my chances at an upset. I can install a defense that will aid this strategy too. A bend-but-dont-break defense that forces my opponent to march down the field also shortens the game. Combined with some high-variance stunts in critical situations and I maximize my chances for the ball to bounce my way while reducing the total amount of times I'll need it to bounce my way in order to win. Obviously this is not an NFL example, but I do think there is value in engineering all phases of a team to meet a common strategy rather than treating the offense and defense as two separate football teams.

[bobblehead]

Seems like you misunderstood me. I'm saying that at the NFL level you've got to have a deep understanding of both sides of the ball because neither exists in a vacuum. I'm also stating that you don't just pick a offensive and defensive philosophy independent of each other because the phases of the game are more coupled than that and I trust McCarthy to be that central planner.

An example might be that I'm head coach of a crappy college team that looks to be the underdog for most of the schedule. I might install a triple option offense because its both a high-variance strategy that provides some big plays as well as a game shortening strategy that eats clock.... giving the better team less chances to demonstrate its superiority and maximizing my chances at an upset. I can install a defense that will aid this strategy too. A bend-but-dont-break defense that forces my opponent to march down the field also shortens the game. Combined with some high-variance stunts in critical situations and I maximize my chances for the ball to bounce my way while reducing the total amount of times I'll need it to bounce my way in order to win. Obviously this is not an NFL example, but I do think there is value in engineering all phases of a team to meet a common strategy rather than treating the offense and defense as two separate football teams.

Good points. And if I never mentioned it I love your sig...I being a huge Al Harris fan.

[Zool]

Get your facts right before you try poking me in the eye... the Packers in 2011 set an NFL record for pass defense futility - 299.8 yds/gm. New England was almost as abysmal at 293.9 yds/gm.

The league average was 229.7 yds/gm.

That said, what New England does, or doesn't do, is none of my concern. I don't like their team, their organization, or Belichick.

Someone on this board actually did some leg work and provided statistical proof that Capers plays more 2-4 than any other team in the league. Am I letting the cat out of the bag by saying that our defense has sucked - seriously sucked - the past few years?? Is this news to you??

Welp, you were right. The Packers were a couple yards worse than NE. My point was, that maybe you're wrong about the 2-4 or maybe people considered professionals in their chosen fields are wrong. Bellichick is often considered the best in the business.

The Packers safeties have been ridiculously awful. That falls on many people. Maybe it's partly Capers fault for not changing his style. Maybe it's on Thompson for not getting better safeties. The Packers passing D in 2010 was 4th in the league. Collins goes out that they drop to 32st.

Maybe....just maybe...it's not all on the coaching. Maybe it's a cumulative effect. The problem is none of us (not even you) knows the answer. But that's why were here I guess. To pretend we're super duper football smart.

[mraynrand]

Welp, you were right. The Packers were a couple yards worse than NE. My point was, that maybe you're wrong about the 2-4 or maybe people considered professionals in their chosen fields are wrong. Bellichick is often considered the best in the business.

The Packers safeties have been ridiculously awful. That falls on many people. Maybe it's partly Capers fault for not changing his style. Maybe it's on Thompson for not getting better safeties. The Packers passing D in 2010 was 4th in the league. Collins goes out that they drop to 32st.

Maybe....just maybe...it's not all on the coaching. Maybe it's a cumulative effect. The problem is none of us (not even you) knows the answer. But that's why were here I guess. To pretend we're super duper football smart.

Ha! I think you're both right. Zool, you are right because Collins and Woodson are gone - and there are the injuries of course. Three years ago, Collins, Woodson, Mathews and Raji were a force in the playoffs! This year - ouch. And Wist is right that perhaps Dom can't run his beloved 2-4 without the creatures to run it. The question for Wist is, really - if the 'perfect' scheme were in place, would the injury and personnel depleted defensive roster do any better? And who is to blame? I'm sticking with blaming Apollo - until he kills me with a lightning strike!

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_TQnzgXCADuc/TS6QWTgtf8I/AAAAAAAAAXU/7UJ7GgFmwDs/s400/Star%2BTrek%2BApollo.jpeg