Kaepernick entering last year of his deal

[Guiness]

Kaepernick was drafted a year ahead of Wilson, Luck and RG3, so he is entering the last year of his rookie deal. We might (probably will) see him extended this off-season.

There's been a lot of talk about what sort of 2nd contract these guys will get, especially Kap and Wilson who have been ridiculously cheap for what they provide on the field. I will be watching with interest to see how this turns out.

[Tony Oday]

$120 mil 7 years.

[Guiness]

$120 mil 7 years.

For an average of over $17M/year? Ouch, but I guess it could happen. I think 4yrs/$40M is more likely though. Not quite a prove it, but not a long term big money commitment either.

Other interesting contracts are Bradford and Suh, especially Suh who has a STUPID cap number in 2014. The Rams seem to want to keep Bradford, but he might get the same treatment as Jake Long did, where his rookie deal makes re-signing him very difficult - he has a $17M cap number this year and would cost the team $10M to release.

[smuggler]

I'm guessing 4 years 56 million

[call_me_ishmael]

Way too low. He will be a top 6-7 paid player. In 1.5 years of starting, he's been to a superbowl and seconds away from winning the NFC championship game. He will get his fat stack.

[Patler]

Way too low. He will be a top 6-7 paid player. In 1.5 years of starting, he's been to a superbowl and seconds away from winning the NFC championship game. He will get his fat stack.

I hope you are right. In fact, I hope the 49ers make him the highest paid player in the league. However, I think paying him that much will be a mistake for the 49ers. Packer fans are clouded by the way he has played against the Packers. In many of his other games, he is not nearly the same QB that he is against GB.

[Guiness]

Way too low. He will be a top 6-7 paid player. In 1.5 years of starting, he's been to a superbowl and seconds away from winning the NFC championship game. He will get his fat stack.

56M is not a fat stack? Well, I guess everything is relative...

I think smuggler's going to be pretty close to right though.

[Bossman641]

3 years 45 mil with 30 guaranteed. Gives Kaep another chance for a huge deal at the age of 29.

[Tony Oday]

$120 mil 7 years.

It's cheaper than Flacco and SF won't let him get away.

[run pMc]

I hope you are right. In fact, I hope the 49ers make him the highest paid player in the league. However, I think paying him that much will be a mistake for the 49ers. Packer fans are clouded by the way he has played against the Packers. In many of his other games, he is not nearly the same QB that he is against GB.

This.

Kaepernick is some kind of Packer-killer, but some teams have made him look like a rookie. He's a phenom athlete, and that will give a lot of teams fits, but I have reservations about his accuracy as a thrower. I think if you can keep him in the pocket and force him to make quick decisions he'll make mistakes. Not saying he's dumb, I think his accuracy would be likely get worse in a pressure pocket.

If the SF pay him 4/56 or 3/45 that's not bad for either side, but it will prevent SF from keeping their front 7 on D and the OL together.
SEA will run into the same thing with Wilson (who I think is more accurate but not elite) next off season.

[pbmax]

I suspect Patler is right and the 49ers (and most teams) do not value him as highly as Packer fans might.

I would expect then for there to be an interim deal that allows his to hit FA again before 30. So Bossman's contract sounds right, except the guarantee is probably less.

[Zool]

I suspect Patler is right and the 49ers (and most teams) do not value him as highly as Packer fans might.

I would expect then for there to be an interim deal that allows his to hit FA again before 30. So Bossman's contract sounds right, except the guarantee is probably less.

I think he might want that short term contract, but $30M guaranteed actually seems right on for a 3 year deal on a guy they want to be the franchise. I know nothing of their cap situation to know if they can fit that in. They could give him a 4th year with tons of funny money to stroke his ego.

4 years, $65M with a $20M signing bonus and the first 2 years guaranteed.

$5M
$10M
$10M
4th year balloon payment which is basically a resign him or cut him year. He gets $35 guaranteed over 3 seasons, the cap hits are pretty reasonable and you cut him in 3 years if he ends up regressing.

[denverYooper]

I suspect Patler is right and the 49ers (and most teams) do not value him as highly as Packer fans might.

I would expect then for there to be an interim deal that allows his to hit FA again before 30. So Bossman's contract sounds right, except the guarantee is probably less.

You think he might take that interim deal? If it is short (3 yrs or less) then I'd expect he might look for at least 30 g'teed, maybe a bit more. His elite skill is his ability to run the ball and that will probably start to go around 30. If his legs are all he really has at the end of a deal, then he might not stand to get paid all that well on the next contract. It would be a bit of a gamble for him to not seek to maximize his gains based on his greatest asset currently (his legs).

Zool's numbers look a little closer to me.

[pbmax]

You think he might take that interim deal? If it is short (3 yrs or less) then I'd expect he might look for at least 30 g'teed, maybe a bit more. His elite skill is his ability to run the ball and that will probably start to go around 30. If his legs are all he really has at the end of a deal, then he might not stand to get paid all that well on the next contract. It would be a bit of a gamble for him to not seek to maximize his gains based on his greatest asset currently (his legs).

Zool's numbers look a little closer to me.

He might not like it, but he doesn't have the rock solid case that Wilson now has, or Rodgers or Flacco. Ryan and Stafford muddy that comparison though.

It all depends on what his agent judges to be out there waiting for him. He is essentially a 1.5 year starter. I completely understand the case to strike while the iron is hot, but with a short deal he has time to hit FA again.

I sense his situation is more analogous to Rodgers second deal than his third. Ryan had a ton of starts before his second deal; what about Stafford? Is he on his second deal?

EDIT: Yes, Stafford is on second deal and had 45 starts prior to signing it.

So Kap might be hamstrung by time as a starter. he could Flacco it, and play out the string and try to hit it big. Seattle or no, not a terrible bet with that team.

[bobblehead]

I hope you are right. In fact, I hope the 49ers make him the highest paid player in the league. However, I think paying him that much will be a mistake for the 49ers. Packer fans are clouded by the way he has played against the Packers. In many of his other games, he is not nearly the same QB that he is against GB.

My thoughts exactly. He is not great. He doesn't read D's. He still uses the GPS on his wrist suggesting he can't master a gameplan during the week. The guy is ok, but paying him top 10 in the league would hamper the whiners.

[pbmax]

My thoughts exactly. He is not great. He doesn't read D's. He still uses the GPS on his wrist suggesting he can't master a gameplan during the week. The guy is ok, but paying him top 10 in the league would hamper the whiners.

Every QB uses that wrist thing. Some might use it because they don't know the play call, but most do it to save time on the mic. Its only on for a limited time, after the ball is spotted and it shuts off at 15 seconds on the play clock I believe.

He might struggle with reads or the game plan, but the wrist thing doesn't suggest it.

EDIT: Rodgers appears not to nor does Peyton Manning. but Brady does.

[bobblehead]

Every QB uses that wrist thing. Some might use it because they don't know the play call, but most do it to save time on the mic. Its only on for a limited time, after the ball is spotted and it shuts off at 15 seconds on the play clock I believe.

He might struggle with reads or the game plan, but the wrist thing doesn't suggest it.

EDIT: Rodgers appears not to nor does Peyton Manning. but Brady does.

Most of the good QB's don't wear it. Brady might, and it might be because they switched OC's again, or it could be because they can't cheat anymore. I think Phillip Rivers does at times also. I know I have seen different QB's use it and not depending, but Kap uses it every play. He is constantly flipping through pages on it. Couple the fact that he in fact does make boneheaded throws and I think evidence supports him not being the sharpest QB around.

[pbmax]

OK, now I am curious. Who wears the play call game plan wrist thing?

Does:
Brady
Wilson (2012)
Palmer (seems to have one in some photos of Cardinals games, others not clear)
McGloin
Ponder (some photos not all)
Romo


Does Not:
Manning
Manning
Rodgers
Ryan
Stafford
Wilson (2013)
Cutler
McCown
Cassell
Ponder (some photos)
Foles
Vick
Griffin
Newton
Brees
Glennon


Not gonna lie. Thought there were more than that. But I'll hang my hat on Brady indicating it could have nothing to do with grasp of offense. :D

[mraynrand]

Kap may not be all that bright. Who knows. I was about to compare him to a former Packer QB at the same time in his career but....

Hey, has anyone tried those new glazed doughnuts? They are awesome.

[bobblehead]

OK, now I am curious. Who wears the play call game plan wrist thing?

Does:
Brady
Wilson (2012)
Palmer (seems to have one in some photos of Cardinals games, others not clear)
McGloin
Ponder (some photos not all)
Romo


Does Not:
Manning
Manning
Rodgers
Ryan
Stafford
Wilson (2013)
Cutler
McCown
Cassell
Ponder (some photos)
Foles
Vick
Griffin
Newton
Brees
Glennon


Not gonna lie. Thought there were more than that. But I'll hang my hat on Brady indicating it could have nothing to do with grasp of offense. :D

Now, objectively observe your list. Brady is the outlier. Wilson wore it as a rook, then ditched it suggesting that command of the system plays a role. Romo, Ponder, McGloin. 2 "not bright" QB's and a rookie forced into action. Palmer switches teams and coordinators every year, so it could be him, could be situation.

I will also concede that at times I have seen QB's wear it who normally don't (Ryan comes to mind), but again, that would suggest something they haven't become comfortable with in the offense that week. Kap has had multiple seasons under Harbaugh to learn not to throw certain passes and command the offense. He still forces the ball and wears a GPS. I believe he is very overrated and it will show more and more each season. I hope SF signs him to a huge deal the upsets the market for QB's.

[pbmax]

Now, objectively observe your list. Brady is the outlier. Wilson wore it as a rook, then ditched it suggesting that command of the system plays a role. Romo, Ponder, McGloin. 2 "not bright" QB's and a rookie forced into action. Palmer switches teams and coordinators every year, so it could be him, could be situation.

I will also concede that at times I have seen QB's wear it who normally don't (Ryan comes to mind), but again, that would suggest something they haven't become comfortable with in the offense that week. Kap has had multiple seasons under Harbaugh to learn not to throw certain passes and command the offense. He still forces the ball and wears a GPS. I believe he is very overrated and it will show more and more each season. I hope SF signs him to a huge deal the upsets the market for QB's.

No doubt its not common if my list is representative of normal operations. I swear I have seen both Mannings (especially Eli) with it, but I could be mistaken or it simply could be from an earlier time and they could have ditched it. Its also possible its more common on the road, to help overcome volume issues.

But to your point, not being able to read a defense has nothing to do with the wrist band. Vick doesn't wear one and he doesn't read defenses. Nor does Stafford.

With Kapernick there could be a couple of explanations. One is his time as a starter. He has started for 1.5 years. By the list, younger players tend to wear it. This would support your read.

But the other is offensive design. Kapernick is running a packaged offense with pre-snap reads. He is the one directing traffic on formation switches and he might be getting a late signal about what coaches see on the field. They may prefer the faster communication of numbered plays. The 49ers don't run a hurry up offense per se, but they do line up at the LOS a lot. They might be using the numbers as an aide like Kelly has Vick/Foles reading the sign on the sideline for the play/formation to allow faster communications. If I could find definitive pictures for Alex Smith as the 49er QB, it might help.

[Patler]

Kap may not be all that bright. Who knows.


Kaepernick outscored Rodgers on the Wonderlic, 37-35.

[mraynrand]

Kaepernick outscored Rodgers on the Wonderlic, 37-35.

Glazed Doughnut outscored Kap 38-37.

Seriously though, what I was getting at is that he's only played a year and a half and it still may not be clicking fully for the guy yet. (I don't think there's more than a pretty low baseline level of intelligence required for this; a lot of it just requires experience, so Kap is certainly Kapable). Think 'football bright.' It's scary to think what will happen when he starts reading defenses really well and if he also improves his accuracy.

edit: I am just assuming he isn't reading defenses as well as possible due to his short time in the game. I could hold out hope that he has already maxed out, but I doubt it.

[Guiness]

Kaepernick outscored Rodgers on the Wonderlic, 37-35.

Just the facts, Jack.

Unfortunately I don't have access to the 'Patlerized' stamp

[QBME]

If I could find definitive pictures for Alex Smith as the 49er QB, it might help.

http://i59.tinypic.com/2zz21qa.jpg

[mraynrand]

Just the facts, Jack.

Unfortunately I don't have access to the 'Patlerized' stamp

You have to be selective with that - only when someone gets spiked for being totally wrong. Plus, I was talking about experience. Wonderlic doesn't really measure that.

And BTW, the stamp is gone forever.

[Guiness]

You have to be selective with that - only when someone gets spiked for being totally wrong. Plus, I was talking about experience. Wonderlic doesn't really measure that.

And BTW, the stamp is gone forever.

It was being insinuated pretty heavily by a few in this thread that Kap was not bright and Patler came back with a zinger!

[mraynrand]

It was being insinuated pretty heavily by a few in this thread that Kap was not bright and Patler came back with a zinger!


I looked - only Bobble suggested he couldn't master the game plan. runPMC said "not saying he's dumb."
I was going to compare him favorably to the QB who may not be named, saying that Kap is well ahead of where the former Packer QB was at the same time in his career. But that's not really a fair comparison, because BF is clearly not that smart. Still my point was that bright or not, he probably needs more experience to get better, but I will still hope he has maxed out!

[Guiness]

I looked - only Bobble suggested he couldn't master the game plan. runPMC said "not saying he's dumb."
I was going to compare him favorably to the QB who may not be named, saying that Kap is well ahead of where the former Packer QB was at the same time in his career. But that's not really a fair comparison, because BF is clearly not that smart. Still my point was that bright or not, he probably needs more experience to get better, but I will still hope he has maxed out!

Add in your comment, which you tried to couch with a 'who knows' and that's 3 times on this page. That's enough for me to say 'a few'.

And no, the Patlerized stamp is not gone - although you seemed to have been the keeper of it, it does live on in google images, albeit with an ugly ass link. Here it is with a new life

http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz247/Mr-Guiness/Patlerized.jpg

btw mentioning Favre without saying his name, then later using his initials is yes, tiresome. There are a lot of other QBs who've passed through the league that are more apt comparisons to Kap, Cunningham at the beginning of his career comes to mind.

[mraynrand]

btw mentioning Favre without saying his name, then later using his initials is yes, tiresome.

tough shit, deal with it.


But anyway, BF struggled to learn the system and control his wild ways. Kap seems to understand the game much better, has reigned in any crazy instincts, but struggles with accuracy. I still say who knows about how bright he is - the wonderlic only tells you so much, but it's not really critical to this issue, since I'm only interested in football smarts, and he seems way too capable for me as a Packer fan. Though as a general football fan, I have to say I love watching him play; those last two games against SF were among the top 10 most entertaining - for me - of the year.

[smuggler]

Fuck you.

[Iron Mike]

You have to be selective with that - only when someone gets spiked for being totally wrong. Plus, I was talking about experience. Wonderlic doesn't really measure that.

And BTW, the stamp is gone forever.

Fu@k, I guess Ole Cleedeus is gone then, also..... :(

[bobblehead]

It was being insinuated pretty heavily by a few in this thread that Kap was not bright and Patler came back with a zinger!

Have you ever taken the Wonderlic? You might think it less a zinger if you find a version online and take it.

edit: And I didn't insinuate it, I flat out said it.

[Joemailman]

Fu@k, I guess Ole Cleedeus is gone then, also..... :(

I've saved Ol Cleedeeus for posterity.

http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb449/route25/cleedeeus.jpg (http://s1206.photobucket.com/user/route25/media/cleedeeus.jpg.html)

[pbmax]

I was told there would be no math in this debate.

[Teamcheez1]

Fuck you.

That's the best you can do? Pretty weak.

[mraynrand]

Fuck you.

If directed at me, I kinda deserve it.

[mraynrand]

Fu@k, I guess Ole Cleedeus is gone then, also..... :(


I dumped the photo bucket account, but most of the images are still on my computer. I guess the act is wearing thin.

[mraynrand]

Though as a general football fan, I have to say I love watching him play; those last two games against SF were among the top 10 most entertaining - for me - of the year.

This may have been confusing - I meant the last two Sea-SF games, not the SF-Packer games, though those were exciting - and disappointing - too. If anyone cares! :)

[Guiness]

Have you ever taken the Wonderlic? You might think it less a zinger if you find a version online and take it.

edit: And I didn't insinuate it, I flat out said it.

Haven't taken a Wonderlific per say, as far as I know, but have been subjected to a few of those quiz style tests over the years. Anyways, I don't follow you. Do you mean that the fact that Kap scored higher than Rodgers doesn't mean anything? I don't think it means he's smarter, but I think it shows he's not a dolt. Search me as to why he seems to be relying on that thing.

[smuggler]

If directed at me, I kinda deserve it.

Yeah, it was. I'm only fucking around.


That's the best you can do? Pretty weak.

Hey, man, it's succinct. (Like your post was much better. :P)

As for Kaepernick, I just feel like 4 years is the right length because it gives him some security while also letting him get another nice contract at age 30. At the same time, it gives the 49ers stability and also gives them a possible way out if the worst comes to fruition.

It may end up being more like 4/64, but I'm comfortable with my 4/56 guess. In any case, if he plays well, he's guaranteed to see all the money. That's better than most players in the league. It seems high dollar players only get about 2/3 or 3/4 of the stated dollar amount of their contract.

[pbmax]

http://i59.tinypic.com/2zz21qa.jpg

Do we know the year of that game?

[Iron Mike]

I dumped the photo bucket account, but most of the images are still on my computer. I guess the act is wearing thin.

Awww, hell naw.....lemme see the Cleedeus w/bling!!!!!

[Pugger]

I've seen a few of the Wonderlic questions and if you aren't all that great at math this test can be a challenge.

[pbmax]

I've seen a few of the Wonderlic questions and if you aren't all that great at math this test can be a challenge.

I have seen the sample questions and the concepts are horribly difficult, its the insane time frame.

EDIT: ... NOT horribly difficult ...

[Guiness]

I have seen the sample questions and the concepts are horribly difficult, its the insane time frame.

I assume you mean not horribly difficult. 12 minutes, right? That means you have 14.4sec/question. Looking over a sample test, I'm sure I could get a perfect score if I had a minute/question, but with one quarter of that time I'm not sure.

[pbmax]

I assume you mean not horribly difficult. 12 minutes, right? That means you have 14.4sec/question. Looking over a sample test, I'm sure I could get a perfect score if I had a minute/question, but with one quarter of that time I'm not sure.

Yes, thank you.

[bobblehead]

I assume you mean not horribly difficult. 12 minutes, right? That means you have 14.4sec/question. Looking over a sample test, I'm sure I could get a perfect score if I had a minute/question, but with one quarter of that time I'm not sure.

This is sort of my point, the test is pretty easy, the time is the issue. Some guys do well at that sort of thing, some don't. If you study it and go over a ton of sample questions, you are likely to see many of them on the test. When you are timed and you recognize a Q you do well because you skim it and answer it. Also if you are a grey thinker you do poorly on those tests as you tend to take some time to analyze a question. Also, this test can favor people who DON'T test well in that they rip through it and guess correctly on a handful of questions that a smarter person might not even get to. It also favors someone who reads fast and hurts someone who is a visual reader.

Tests are just that, tests. Sometimes they aren't testing knowledge or IQ, but something else. I took a wonderlic test once and did very average, a 31. I took it a second time about an hour later, but focused on speed and scored a 42. And yes, I did 2 different versions.

[Guiness]

This is sort of my point, the test is pretty easy, the time is the issue. Some guys do well at that sort of thing, some don't. If you study it and go over a ton of sample questions, you are likely to see many of them on the test. When you are timed and you recognize a Q you do well because you skim it and answer it. Also if you are a grey thinker you do poorly on those tests as you tend to take some time to analyze a question. Also, this test can favor people who DON'T test well in that they rip through it and guess correctly on a handful of questions that a smarter person might not even get to. It also favors someone who reads fast and hurts someone who is a visual reader.

Tests are just that, tests. Sometimes they aren't testing knowledge or IQ, but something else. I took a wonderlic test once and did very average, a 31. I took it a second time about an hour later, but focused on speed and scored a 42. And yes, I did 2 different versions.

Well put. An interesting thought though, is that football players entering the draft know how important this test is, so they must do sample tests a couple of times so they aren't going in cold (if not their agents should be shot and pissed on having cost them millions of dollars) so their results really should be indicative of their best attempts - i.e. your 42.

[smuggler]

Evidently that's not the case. Many people have scored less than 10 on those tests. (10 is the average score when answers are selected by cephalopods not named Paul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Octopus))

[run pMc]

Yeah, I knew Kaepernick had a really high Wonderlic score, and he doesn't sound like a mouthbreather when interviewed, so I don't get the sense that's it's intelligence. I'd chalk it up to experience, and his ability to read defenses. For years people said Vick could only read one half of the field...I'm not sure that ever changed, although I think he did get better as a passing QB. Kaepernick's present ability to read defenses, along with his accuracy, lead me to think he's a good but not great QB. Having a cannon for an arm and being a great runner makes him more dangerous than he'd otherwise be.

I think most agree he's not dumb.

I wouldn't be shocked if SF signs him to a short deal like what many have mentioned. Will be nice to see some of the other playoff contenders have to pay their QBs and balance the salary cap.

[Fritz]

And San Fran had a boatload of draft picks last year or the year before, so it'll be interesting to see if those guys pan out the way Seattle's did this year.

[mraynrand]

Evidently that's not the case. Many people have scored less than 10 on those tests. (10 is the average score when answers are selected by cephalopods not named Paul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Octopus))

LOL. Paul the Octopus is a better bet than Jimmy the Greek. I bet 'Ol Jimmy woulda struggled to get a 5 on the wonderlic, but he'd have a fabulous lunch afterwards, regardless.

[smuggler]

Jimmy was actually pretty amazing at guessing by the seat of his pants. What he was not so much amazing at? Well, you know, giving interviews.

[run pMc]

And San Fran had a boatload of draft picks last year or the year before, so it'll be interesting to see if those guys pan out the way Seattle's did this year.

Yeah. Marcus Lattimore. Tank Carradine. Corey Lemonier. Eric Reid has already played well. Lots of players that will either pan out or flame out.

[King Friday]

My thoughts exactly. He is not great. He doesn't read D's. He still uses the GPS on his wrist suggesting he can't master a gameplan during the week. The guy is ok, but paying him top 10 in the league would hamper the whiners.

Losing him to another team would hamper the Niners even more. Their offense is crap without his dual-threat ability, and they have to keep up with the Seahawks.

JAY FUCKING CUTLER, Mr. Pussy Himself, just got $126M over 7 yrs. Do you honestly think any NFL agent isn't going to push for a similar deal for Kap?

[bobblehead]

Losing him to another team would hamper the Niners even more. Their offense is crap without his dual-threat ability, and they have to keep up with the Seahawks.

JAY FUCKING CUTLER, Mr. Pussy Himself, just got $126M over 7 yrs. Do you honestly think any NFL agent isn't going to push for a similar deal for Kap?

I hope he does get Cutler money. I hope he gets Peyton Manning money. I think if they still had Alex Smith they would be a very comparable team.

[smuggler]

I hope he does as well. 7years 125 million would be amazing.

[mraynrand]

I hope he does get Cutler money. I hope he gets Peyton Manning money. I think if they still had Alex Smith they would be a very comparable team.

Ya know, I kinda agree. What they lost in running they might have made up in passing accuracy. Probably would have lost that Seattle playoff game more soundly though, but this is pure guessing.

[Fritz]

I wonder if the talks with him are heating up, or if they'll wait til after free agency to start it up.

[Guiness]

I wonder if the talks with him are heating up, or if they'll wait til after free agency to start it up.

I wouldn't expect they would be talking to him now, no reason to and it's a busy time. They've got all summer and will be concentrating on FAs and the draft now. Kap's agent probably wouldn't want to talk about a player under contract, preferring to work new deals or recruit rookies entering the draft.

[Guiness]

Kap looked at Cutler, and decided he wants a similar deal, $18M/year. You go guy (is that a thing?)
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24465903/report-colin-kaepernick-looking-for-18-million-per-season

[MadtownPacker]

He better get as much money as he can. Things appear to be changing in SF...
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/report-says-jim-harbaugh-act-worn-thin-49ers-223218732--nfl.html

[mraynrand]

He better get as much money as he can. Things appear to be changing in SF...
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/report-says-jim-harbaugh-act-worn-thin-49ers-223218732--nfl.html


Plenty of coaches get along with players. Norv Turner would fit that role marvelously.

Norv!

[KYPack]

Kaepernick outscored Rodgers on the Wonderlic, 37-35.

Crosby missed the field goal?

[KYPack]

He better get as much money as he can. Things appear to be changing in SF...
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/report-says-jim-harbaugh-act-worn-thin-49ers-223218732--nfl.html

Hear any other scoop out there?

The 49er tree appears to be shakin' in the wind.

I love it.

[KYPack]

Glazed Doughnut outscored Kap 38-37.

Seriously though, what I was getting at is that he's only played a year and a half and it still may not be clicking fully for the guy yet. (I don't think there's more than a pretty low baseline level of intelligence required for this; a lot of it just requires experience, so Kap is certainly Kapable). Think 'football bright.' It's scary to think what will happen when he starts reading defenses really well and if he also improves his accuracy.

edit: I am just assuming he isn't reading defenses as well as possible due to his short time in the game. I could hold out hope that he has already maxed out, but I doubt it.

BLF had a 22

DT-like.

[mraynrand]

BLF had a 22

DT-like.

Plays like a LB!

[KYPack]

Plays like a LB!

The goof goes thru life having fun, I'll say that for him.

[pbmax]

Hear any other scoop out there?

The 49er tree appears to be shakin' in the wind.

I love it.

Boldin is resigning.

[Guiness]

Boldin is resigning.

ok pb, I'm far from an english major, but ya hafta stop that! It's re-signing - resigning is leaving/quitting!

[mraynrand]

ok pb, I'm far from an english major, but ya hafta stop that! It's re-signing - resigning is leaving/quitting!

I resent your post

[Guiness]

I resent your post

FaIr EnOuGh. I can only assume you mean you passed it along.

[mraynrand]

FaIr EnOuGh. I can only assume you mean you passed it along.


I just meant to riposte your resentment

[Guiness]

I just meant to riposte your resentment

Allow me to re-post your riposte. Can't we just all get along?

http://www.mnn.com/sites/default/files/editorial/m_dog_6_0.jpg

[pbmax]

I blame Auto-Correct for wiping out the hyphen.

Foles/Folk, resigning/re-signing, let's call the whole thing off.

[Guiness]

I blame Auto-Correct for wiping out the hyphen.

Foles/Folk, resigning/re-signing, let's call the whole thing off.

Triple checked, and can't find what you're up to with this post. Could it be the piece of a white dove?

[woodbuck27]

He better get as much money as he can. Things appear to be changing in SF...
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/report-says-jim-harbaugh-act-worn-thin-49ers-223218732--nfl.html


Another "show me the money" situation unfolding.

[woodbuck27]

Allow me to re-post your riposte. Can't we just all get along?

http://www.mnn.com/sites/default/files/editorial/m_dog_6_0.jpg

That chained dog is in some serious doo doo there.

Let's hope "polar bear" is having a good day.

Wait a second my next thought is what sex is that bear...opening up a whole new can of worms.

[Joemailman]

Bump for Bossman.

[Joemailman]

Tony Oday was pretty close.

[pbmax]

$120 mil 7 years.

Nicely done. +1

[woodbuck27]

He better get as much money as he can. Things appear to be changing in SF...
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/report-says-jim-harbaugh-act-worn-thin-49ers-223218732--nfl.html

That's interesting given this:

** Harbaugh is 36-11-1 the last three years

** has gone to the NFC title game each season, with one Super Bowl appearance.

** He has put together that record, which is phenomenal in the parity-driven NFL, changing quarterbacks about halfway through.

[woodbuck27]

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/7460/russell-Wilson

Latest News

" ESPN's Adam Schefter hears Russell Wilson and Andrew Luck will earn $24-$25 million annually when they sign new contracts next year. "

[Brandon494]

Wilson deserves it....Luck is a little overrated IMO but I mean its a QB league so you have to pay it.

[red]

Wilson deserves it....Luck is a little overrated IMO but I mean its a QB league so you have to pay it.

both IMO, are better then kap by quite a bit. i was wrong calling wilson average-ish in the other thread. i still don't know think he's in the same class as a-rod, so i don't see why he should be paid the same kind of money (or more)

[Brandon494]

both IMO, are better then kap by quite a bit. i was wrong calling wilson average-ish in the other thread. i still don't know think he's in the same class as a-rod, so i don't see why he should be paid the same kind of money (or more)

Please explain to me how you think Luck is better than Kap...

[Joemailman]

Please explain to me how you think Luck is better than Kap...

It's close, but I'd give the edge to Luck. Luck had 23 TD passes and 9 INT's to Kap's 21-8. Both had 4 rushing TD's. But Kap has always had a better team rushing attack to aid him. I think Luck will prove to be the better QB, but he does have to cut down on those postseason INT's.

[red]

Please explain to me how you think Luck is better than Kap...

what joe said

plus kap has a killer d to take some pressure of him. kaps completion % kind of sucks. plus if you take away his games against us, we wouldn't even be having this debate, because there would be no debate

kapernick just got 100+ million dollars (allegedly) based on what? 3 games vs green bay. take those games away and he's not even close to being a "superstar" or an elite QB imo

kap ranked 30th (of all QB's that attempted at least 200 passes) last year in completion %. IMO, all QB's should be trying to complete all passes, so its a decent measuring stick

he was 17th in td's

10th in QB rating (of qb's with more then 15 attempts)

where is he elite? he wins games,but i say that has more to do with the team around him then it has to do with him. imo there's 15 maybe 20 qb's who can win with san fran right now

[Brandon494]

-Kap has a better QBR rating and QB Passer rating.

-You mention Kap's competition % yet he has a higher career % then Luck.

-You said Kap has a defense to take the pressure off him yet don't realize the tougher teams he has to face.

-You compare the TDs and INTs yet Luck threw the ball 150 more times.

-No one said he was elite but please name the 15-20 QBs who SF would win the Super Bowl with in place of Kaep because they wouldn't even get pass GB without him.

[red]

fine i'll play your fucking game

the numbers next to the names are not for rankings, they are there to keep track of how many names i've listed

1. a-rod
2. peyton
3. brady
4. brees
5. rivers
6. foles
7. wilson
8. roethlisberger
9. romo
10.ryan
11. stafford

guys who i would say are in the same class as kap and i might take before or after him. again in no order

1. cam
2. luck
3. eli
4. alex smith
5. flacco
6. rg3
7. dalton
8. bradford
9. cutler
10. mike glennon

i'm sure i'm missing some people. the first group i would take all of them before kap, he would fall somewhere in that second group for me

[Brandon494]

Fucking fair enough but you could say the guys in the first group could all win in Green Bay so thats not really saying much.

Anyway I don't know how we got off the subject of Luck being better than Kaepernick. I asked you what made Luck better and you go on to list Kaepernick's faults even though Luck has the same faults. Yet somehow Luck gets passed in the media as a future star in this league because of the media hype. Now I think both will be good in this league just find it funny how some think Kaep is overrated yet they think Luck is the next star QB even though they put up similar numbers.

[Rastak]

Profootball Focus
2013

5th best - Rodgers
12th best - Luck
18th best - Kap

For your guys laugh -

Ponder was 35. Youch. He looked it.

[Brandon494]

Profootball Focus
2013

5th best - Rodgers
12th best - Luck
18th best - Kap

For your guys laugh -

Ponder was 35. Youch. He looked it.

Link?

Based on what? Rodgers missed half the season.

[Rastak]

Link?

Based on what? Rodgers missed half the season.


www.profootballfocus.com - you gotta plunk down the dough.

You seriously never heard of PFF? I know damn well Rodgers missed half the year, he graded out 5th.

Rodgers snaps 592
Luck 1068
Kap 999

[Brandon494]

www.profootballfocus.com - you gotta plunk down the dough.

You seriously never heard of PFF? I know damn well Rodgers missed half the year, he graded out 5th.

Rodgers snaps 592
Luck 1068
Kap 999

I know the site, where do you see those rankings?

[Rastak]

I know the site, where do you see those rankings?


I have a subscription - I sorted by QB and then by overall. Not sure if this is cool - kill it Mad if it isn't - super hard to read but a guy could toss it into a spreadsheet.




Ratings
# Name Team Snaps Overall Pass Run Penalty # of Pen Drop backs Runs Att. Comp Comp % TA HT BP SP Yds Yds / Att. TD In Sk DP NFL Rating
1 Peyton Manning DEN 1181 43.3 44.3 -2.8 1.8 3-0 677 0 659 450 68.3 12 0 6 1 5477 8.3 55 10 18 43 115.1
2 Drew Brees NO 1138 26.5 28.8 0.3 -2.6 11-0 699 12 650 446 68.6 25 6 6 1 5162 7.9 39 12 37 25 104.7
3 Philip Rivers SD 1128 25.5 28.6 -1.6 -1.5 7-1 590 16 544 378 69.5 14 6 12 1 4478 8.2 32 11 30 24 105.5
4 Russell Wilson SEA 1006 23.1 13.1 10.8 -0.8 10-0 502 51 407 257 63.1 21 1 6 2 3357 8.2 26 9 44 14 101.2
5 Aaron Rodgers GB 592 16.7 13.0 2.6 1.1 1-0 328 17 290 193 66.6 22 0 6 1 2536 8.7 17 6 21 14 104.9
6 Josh McCown CHI 427 16.6 14.3 1.7 0.6 2-1 243 8 224 149 66.5 9 3 5 0 1829 8.2 13 1 11 12 109.0
7 Ryan Tannehill MIA 1035 16.4 15.2 -0.4 1.6 2-0 661 14 588 355 60.4 25 3 8 4 3913 6.7 24 17 59 33 81.7
8 Tom Brady NE 1218 16.3 16.6 -2.0 1.7 2-0 671 4 628 380 60.5 13 9 4 4 4343 6.9 25 11 40 53 87.3
9 Matthew Stafford DET 1156 15.3 17.7 -1.9 -0.5 6-0 668 11 634 371 58.5 17 2 17 3 4647 7.3 29 19 23 58 84.1
10 Jay Cutler CHI 643 13.5 10.0 2.8 0.7 4-0 387 13 355 224 63.1 10 4 6 4 2621 7.4 19 12 19 21 89.2
11 Ben Roethlisberger PIT 1067 12.1 11.6 -0.7 1.2 3-0 639 13 584 375 64.2 14 4 10 6 4276 7.3 28 14 42 36 92.1
12 Andrew Luck IND 1068 11.1 -1.0 9.4 2.7 0-0 645 43 570 343 60.2 15 8 13 0 3822 6.7 23 9 32 34 87.0
13 Tony Romo DAL 944 11.0 13.2 -2.9 0.7 4-0 578 8 535 342 63.9 16 0 6 1 3844 7.2 31 10 35 32 96.8
14 Matt Ryan ATL 1088 10.0 8.2 0.2 1.6 2-0 703 8 651 439 67.4 18 7 14 1 4515 6.9 26 17 44 40 89.6
15 Cam Newton CAR 1025 8.1 -6.1 12.6 1.6 1-0 555 40 473 292 61.7 18 9 8 3 3379 7.1 24 13 43 23 88.8
16 Nick Foles PHI 715 5.4 5.6 0.6 -0.8 4-0 361 16 317 203 64.0 19 5 2 0 2891 9.1 27 2 28 13 119.2
17 Andy Dalton CIN 1140 4.8 2.5 1.7 0.6 3-0 640 25 586 363 61.9 21 3 14 1 4294 7.3 33 20 29 35 88.8
18 Colin Kaepernick SF 999 2.7 -0.4 4.3 -1.2 8-1 504 47 416 243 58.4 14 1 13 0 3197 7.7 21 8 39 26 91.6
19 Carson Palmer ARZ 1105 2.5 2.3 -0.2 0.4 5-1 618 5 572 362 63.3 14 8 10 1 4274 7.5 24 22 41 20 83.9
20 Sam Bradford SL 463 0.5 1.5 -2.2 1.2 0-0 284 7 262 159 60.7 11 2 8 0 1689 6.4 14 4 15 21 91.0
21 Ryan Fitzpatrick TEN 687 0.4 -2.6 2.3 0.7 2-0 399 29 351 217 61.8 12 4 3 3 2462 7.0 14 12 20 26 81.9
22 Jake Locker TEN 401 -0.1 0.3 -0.4 0.0 2-0 213 14 183 111 60.7 2 3 2 1 1256 6.9 8 4 16 13 86.7
23 Michael Vick PHI 335 -0.2 -4.3 4.8 -0.7 2-0 171 17 141 77 54.6 7 1 5 0 1216 8.6 5 3 13 8 86.5
24 Alex D. Smith KC 1006 -0.6 -6.0 4.8 0.6 6-0 593 46 508 308 60.6 18 3 11 4 3313 6.5 23 8 39 37 88.3
25 Kellen Clemens SL 565 -4.0 -2.4 -2.8 1.2 2-0 272 9 242 142 58.7 7 5 2 1 1673 6.9 8 7 21 14 78.8
26 Thaddeus Lewis BUF 361 -4.6 -2.4 -3.2 1.0 0-0 184 9 157 93 59.2 3 1 2 0 1092 7.0 4 3 18 9 81.0
27 Matt Cassel MIN 467 -5.2 -6.7 0.4 1.1 0-0 281 11 254 153 60.2 7 2 12 0 1807 7.1 11 9 16 13 81.6
28 Matt Flynn GB 331 -5.4 -3.4 -2.8 0.8 0-0 194 11 166 102 61.4 10 1 5 0 1146 6.9 7 4 17 10 86.1
29 Matthew McGloin OAK 389 -6.1 -5.0 -1.4 0.3 1-0 220 3 211 118 55.9 4 1 9 0 1547 7.3 8 8 6 13 76.1
30 Robert Griffin III WAS 924 -6.4 -8.7 2.6 -0.3 6-0 530 36 456 274 60.1 14 3 9 2 3203 7.0 16 12 38 36 82.2
31 Brandon Weeden CLV 473 -6.8 -5.6 -0.9 -0.3 5-0 301 7 267 141 52.8 16 5 3 1 1731 6.5 9 9 27 24 70.3
32 Eli Manning NYG 1002 -7.4 -4.0 0.6 -4.0 12-0 596 6 551 317 57.5 25 3 7 0 3818 6.9 18 27 39 30 69.4
33 Case Keenum HST 469 -7.6 -8.5 0.8 0.1 2-0 277 5 253 137 54.2 13 3 6 3 1760 7.0 9 6 19 17 78.2
34 Mike Glennon TB 864 -8.2 -6.1 -0.8 -1.3 7-1 468 12 416 247 59.4 19 8 7 0 2608 6.3 19 9 40 21 83.9
35 Christian Ponder MIN 520 -10.8 -13.8 1.7 1.3 1-0 291 25 239 152 63.6 11 3 2 0 1648 6.9 7 9 27 10 77.9
35 Jason Campbell CLV 521 -10.8 -13.6 3.0 -0.2 4-0 346 13 317 180 56.8 19 4 5 1 2015 6.4 11 8 16 21 76.9
37 Joe Flacco BLT 1173 -13.2 -16.3 0.9 2.2 1-0 677 15 614 362 59.0 16 9 5 1 3912 6.4 19 22 48 33 73.1
38 Matt Schaub HST 624 -15.9 -16.4 0.4 0.1 2-0 383 4 358 219 61.2 19 2 7 0 2310 6.5 10 14 21 12 73.0
39 Terrelle Pryor OAK 611 -17.0 -24.4 8.5 -1.1 8-0 337 34 272 156 57.4 18 1 3 1 1798 6.6 7 11 31 14 69.1
40 E.J. Manuel BUF 706 -19.8 -19.4 -1.3 0.9 2-0 358 24 306 180 58.8 5 6 3 1 1972 6.4 11 9 28 19 77.7
41 Geno Smith NYJ 1007 -20.2 -23.9 4.4 -0.7 7-1 517 31 443 247 55.8 26 2 9 1 3036 6.9 12 21 43 26 66.4
42 Chad Henne JAX 921 -21.0 -20.2 -2.2 1.4 7-0 551 11 503 305 60.6 16 5 20 1 3241 6.4 13 14 37 30 76.5

[HarveyWallbangers]

My Top 10 QBs (no order)

Aaron Rodgers
Peyton Manning
Drew Brees
Tom Brady
Ben Roethlisberger
Tony Romo
Russell Wilson
Colin Kaepernick
Andrew Luck
Cam Newton

[Brandon494]

My Top 10 QBs (no order)

Aaron Rodgers
Peyton Manning
Drew Brees
Tom Brady
Ben Roethlisberger
Tony Romo
Russell Wilson
Colin Kaepernick
Andrew Luck
Cam Newton

I like that list but I would have to put Matt Ryan in there somewhere.

[Cheesehead Craig]

I like that list but I would have to put Matt Ryan in there somewhere.

I just can't like the guy. He can put up some numbers but he's inconsistent. Guess I just hate the whole "Matty Ice" nickname when it really doesn't apply.

[pbmax]

Fucking fair enough but you could say the guys in the first group could all win in Green Bay so thats not really saying much.

Anyway I don't know how we got off the subject of Luck being better than Kaepernick. I asked you what made Luck better and you go on to list Kaepernick's faults even though Luck has the same faults. Yet somehow Luck gets passed in the media as a future star in this league because of the media hype. Now I think both will be good in this league just find it funny how some think Kaep is overrated yet they think Luck is the next star QB even though they put up similar numbers.

Publicly, I think they are two sides of the same coin. Luck has had more initial publicity, but Kaepernick has played in more meaningful games. Luck has been almost self-destructive in the playoffs. Luck is still trying to fulfill destiny, sort of like LeBron before a title. But CK has gotten closer twice.

[Striker]

I'd give Luck a leg up on both Wilson and Kaepernick simply because Luck has to do a lot more for his team than either of them do.

Plus, he's more of a "pure" pocket passer than either of them, and players that can do that tend to have better longevity.

[RashanGary]

My favorite quality in Kaepernick is his tenacious competive spirit. He has an edge and I think he sets a tone. You want that. I think that, along with his arm talent and movement make him on pace to be one of the better QBs in the league. The thing he doesn't seem to have, that Wilson and Rodgers do is full command of the game. Romo is a good example of a guy who gets lost at times, like the game is just a touch too big for him. Kap isn't that bad, and should get a little better, but for some guys it's natural. They're always a step ahead. Map doesn't seem to be that guy. I think it limits him from being the best or even with the best. Wilson has, "it." Luck seems to have more of "it." I'll have to see a little more luck, but my hunch is, he'll be the better QB.

[Brandon494]

I'd give Luck a leg up on both Wilson and Kaepernick simply because Luck has to do a lot more for his team than either of them do.

Plus, he's more of a "pure" pocket passer than either of them, and players that can do that tend to have better longevity.

You might like him more but hes not the better QB. He might look like the "pure" QB but numbers don't lie. You knock Wilson and Kaep for being on good teams yet don't say anything about Luck throwing 7 INTs in the postseason last year. Wilson won the SB and Kaep led his team to the SB but Luck is the better QB because hes on a shitter team even though Wilson and Kaep put up better numbers? :roll:

[HarveyWallbangers]

Saying Luck is as good or better or has more potential than Kaepernick and/or Wilson isn't that head scratching. It's a matter of opinion. Based on how they've played I'd go Wilson, Kaep, Luck (it's close though). Based on potential I'd go Luck, Kaep, Wilson (it's close though). Kaep has the most to work with. Very good OL, solid receivers, good running game, great defense. Wilson has had fewer weapons, but that defense allows him to play more controlled. Luck's OL is weak, he has fewer weapons, and their defense isn't very good. He has to carry that team. Plus, the dude seems to have an unbelievable knack for making plays late--even after struggling earlier in the game. He reminds me of Favre in that aspect. I suspect you could ask NFL personnel to rank these three and you'd get every possible order. There's no clear cut better player/prospect in this group.

You can talk about their teams doing this or that, but ESPN just put out their roster rankings. They have Seattle with the most talented roster in the NFL. San Francisco was second. Indianapolis wasn't in the top 10. Luck leading that roster to 11-5 is probably as impressive as Kaep leading San Fran to 12-4 and Wilson leading Seattle to 13-3 and the Super Bowl.

[Striker]

You might like him more but hes not the better QB. He might look like the "pure" QB but numbers don't lie. You knock Wilson and Kaep for being on good teams yet don't say anything about Luck throwing 7 INTs in the postseason last year. Wilson won the SB and Kaep led his team to the SB but Luck is the better QB because hes on a shitter team even though Wilson and Kaep put up better numbers? :roll:

Yes, Wilson by himself "won" the SB. One of the best defenses in NFL history and a terrific running back had nothing to do with that. As others have pointed out, having a great team surrounding you sure helps. It makes a QB less likely to press (ala Brett Favre) and rewards "safer" play since you can rely on your defense to go out and either get you the ball back or score themselves.

And of course we can manipulate "better numbers" all day.

Let's look at last postseasons numbers.

Wilson threw a whopping total of 68 passes last postseason (524 passing yards/42 rushing yards) with 3 TDs. Overall he accounted for 566 of the team's 926 yards of total offense, and 18 of the 89 points scored by the Seahawks. QBR was 53.

Kaepernick attempted 82 passes for 576 passing years/243 rushing yards last postseason and accounted for 4 TDs (including rushing), 3 INTs, and a lost fumble. Overall he accounted for 819 of the team's 1001 yards of offense, and 28 of the 62 points. QBR was 77.

Both of them did this over 3 games.

Luck attempted 86 passes, threw 6 TDs, had the fumble recovery for a TD, and threw 7 INTs. He had 774 passing yards and 50 rushing yards. Overall this means he was responsible for 824 of the 922 yards produced by the Colts, and 42 of the 67 points. QBR was 71.8.

So, Kaepernick and Luck aren't that far apart and it looks like Wilson doesn't have to do much but be efficient. So, if his numbers are roughly on par with Kaepernick (who plays for a far superior team), wouldn't it stand to reason that Luck would be even better if they could fix the many holes the Colts have?

[Just Jeff]

Yes, Wilson by himself "won" the SB. One of the best defenses in NFL history and a terrific running back had nothing to do with that. As others have pointed out, having a great team surrounding you sure helps. It makes a QB less likely to press (ala Brett Favre) and rewards "safer" play since you can rely on your defense to go out and either get you the ball back or score themselves.

And of course we can manipulate "better numbers" all day.

Let's look at last postseasons numbers.

Wilson threw a whopping total of 68 passes last postseason (524 passing yards/42 rushing yards) with 3 TDs. Overall he accounted for 566 of the team's 926 yards of total offense, and 18 of the 89 points scored by the Seahawks. QBR was 53.

Kaepernick attempted 82 passes for 576 passing years/243 rushing yards last postseason and accounted for 4 TDs (including rushing), 3 INTs, and a lost fumble. Overall he accounted for 819 of the team's 1001 yards of offense, and 28 of the 62 points. QBR was 77.

Both of them did this over 3 games.

Luck attempted 86 passes, threw 6 TDs, had the fumble recovery for a TD, and threw 7 INTs. He had 774 passing yards and 50 rushing yards. Overall this means he was responsible for 824 of the 922 yards produced by the Colts, and 42 of the 67 points. QBR was 71.8.

So, Kaepernick and Luck aren't that far apart and it looks like Wilson doesn't have to do much but be efficient. So, if his numbers are roughly on par with Kaepernick (who plays for a far superior team), wouldn't it stand to reason that Luck would be even better if they could fix the many holes the Colts have?

Great post, but what does it have to do with Daryn Colledge?

[mraynrand]

^^^ sound reasoning, Striker. repped. except for using ESPN QBR :( lol

[Striker]

^^^ sound reasoning, Striker. repped. except for using ESPN QBR :( lol

I only mentioned it because he brought it up earlier in the thread.

[Guiness]

I don't think you can really look at Luck, Kaep, Russel and Newton (you can probably throw Stafford in there) and say this one or that one is clearly better. They are obviously the next wave of up and coming quarterbacks, the next few years will flesh them out. Brees, Manning and Brady ended up being the creme of that generation, and even now it's not clear cut which of them is the best. From that era, Vick was the one that would've been included in the group at first, but never quite got there. I'd guess 2 or 3 of those 5 will turn out elite.

Interesting, it seems like there's a bit of a dead spot between those two generations. It's where Rodgers falls, but is there really anyone else from that era that shines? Flacco? Rothlesburger? Both of them are SB winners, but aren't generally mentioned when you talk about top 5 QBs. I guess the domination of Brees, Manning and Brady overshadowed them.

[MadtownPacker]

Let me ask the real question, would Brandon think Karpernick was better if he wasn't half Black? I know he don't like Wilson. Cuz he is a "corny negro".

[Brandon494]

Saying Luck is as good or better or has more potential than Kaepernick and/or Wilson isn't that head scratching. It's a matter of opinion. Based on how they've played I'd go Wilson, Kaep, Luck (it's close though). Based on potential I'd go Luck, Kaep, Wilson (it's close though). Kaep has the most to work with. Very good OL, solid receivers, good running game, great defense. Wilson has had fewer weapons, but that defense allows him to play more controlled. Luck's OL is weak, he has fewer weapons, and their defense isn't very good. He has to carry that team. Plus, the dude seems to have an unbelievable knack for making plays late--even after struggling earlier in the game. He reminds me of Favre in that aspect. I suspect you could ask NFL personnel to rank these three and you'd get every possible order. There's no clear cut better player/prospect in this group.

You can talk about their teams doing this or that, but ESPN just put out their roster rankings. They have Seattle with the most talented roster in the NFL. San Francisco was second. Indianapolis wasn't in the top 10. Luck leading that roster to 11-5 is probably as impressive as Kaep leading San Fran to 12-4 and Wilson leading Seattle to 13-3 and the Super Bowl.

You do realize the divisions they play in right? Colts had the only winning record in their division while the NFC West had 3. Everything else I agree on though and I do like Luck's potential but until he starts showing it on the field you can't say he is better then those guys just because he got all the hype coming out of college.

[red]

[QUOTE=MadtownPacker;788657]Let me ask the real question, would Brandon think Karpernick was better if he wasn't half Black? I know he don't like Wilson. Cuz he is a "corny negro".[/QUOTE

well i was working on the assumption that that is the reason that he likes kap over luck

[Brandon494]

Yes, Wilson by himself "won" the SB. One of the best defenses in NFL history and a terrific running back had nothing to do with that.

That comment makes no sense, its the NFL! On one can win the Superbowl by themselves, its a team game. You think Rodgers won it by himself? We had the #1 defense that year but I guess you guys just forgot about that.

[HarveyWallbangers]

You do realize the divisions they play in right? Colts had the only winning record in their division while the NFC West had 3. Everything else I agree on though and I do like Luck's potential but until he starts showing it on the field you can't say he is better then those guys just because he got all the hype coming out of college.

Of course, I do. But considering the talent surrounding them, I think his team success is impressive. Seattle and San Fran are MUCH more talented than Indianapolis, crappy division or not. I don't think highly of Luck because he was a high draft pick. I think highly of him because of his 8 fourth quarter comebacks. The guy is money in the clutch. Wilson and Kaepernick are working with stacked decks. I personally like all three guys, but if I had the choice of the three to start a new franchise, I'd probably lean towards Luck. I think Luck could do every bit as well as Wilson and Kaepernick if he played on Seattle and San Fran and vice versa. It's like arguing who is better between Aaron Rodgers or Drew Brees to me. There is no right answer.

[Brandon494]

Let me ask the real question, would Brandon think Karpernick was better if he wasn't half Black? I know he don't like Wilson. Cuz he is a "corny negro".[/QUOTE

well i was working on the assumption that that is the reason that he likes kap over luck

Yea it has nothing to do with better numbers or his resume.

FYI Wilson is from my hometown and was in the same little league basketball league I played in even though I was 2 years older. Also got to watch him beat the shit out of my high school team so its a little homer-ism from me.

[HarveyWallbangers]

That comment makes no sense, its the NFL! On one can win the Superbowl by themselves, its a team game. You think Rodgers won it by himself? We had the #1 defense that year but I guess you guys just forgot about that.

I think you mean Favre. Green Bay didn't have the #1 defense in 2010 based on points or yards. They did in 1996.

[Brandon494]

Of course, I do. But considering the talent surrounding them, I think his team success is impressive. Seattle and San Fran are MUCH more talented than Indianapolis, crappy division or not. I don't think highly of Luck because he was a high draft pick. I think highly of him because of his 8 fourth quarter comebacks. The guy is money in the clutch. Wilson and Kaepernick are working with stacked decks. I personally like all three guys, but if I had the choice of the three to start a new franchise, I'd probably lean towards Luck. I think Luck could do every bit as well as Wilson and Kaepernick if he played on Seattle and San Fran and vice versa. It's like arguing who is better between Aaron Rodgers or Drew Brees to me. There is no right answer.

I see what you are saying but no way he is better then Wilson. Its a push between him and Kaep but I to give the edge to Kaep when he puts up better numbers and plays better in the playoffs. The fourth quarter comeback stat is useless to me, they use to bash Rodgers for not having many but you know why he didn't? Because he never put his team in a hole early with costly turnovers like Luck and Favre did. Obviously Wilson and Kaep play on better teams but did either of those teams make it to the Super Bowl without them?

[red]

and for the record, i don't think luck is elite while kapernick isn't. i don't think any of the young guys are elite yet. they all show potential, but IMO they all have a long way to go.

none of them are worth 100 million yet IMO. when did we start paying out 100 million for potential?

at least a-rod was already well established as one of if not the best QB in the game when he got his huge deal, kap, just got a-rod like money based on the idea that some day he might be as good as a-rod

to me thats stupid

[red]

I see what you are saying but no way he is better then Wilson. Its a push between him and Kaep but I to give the edge to Kaep when he puts up better numbers and plays better in the playoffs. The fourth quarter comeback stat is useless to me, they use to bash Rodgers for not having many but you know why he didn't? Because he never put his team in a hole early with costly turnovers like Luck and Favre did. Obviously Wilson and Kaep play on better teams but did either of those teams make it to the Super Bowl without them?

this i agree with

wilson first then almost a toss-up between luck and kap. if i had to choise between the later two though i would probably lean more towards luck, but it isn't by much.

and again, none IMO right now are worth 100 million

[Brandon494]

I think you mean Favre. Green Bay didn't have the #1 defense in 2010 based on points or yards. They did in 1996.

My fault we finished 2nd in points allowed. (240, second best in team history)

[Brandon494]

Interesting, it seems like there's a bit of a dead spot between those two generations. It's where Rodgers falls, but is there really anyone else from that era that shines? Flacco? Rothlesburger? Both of them are SB winners, but aren't generally mentioned when you talk about top 5 QBs. I guess the domination of Brees, Manning and Brady overshadowed them.

Rothlesburger is a future HOF imo, Flacco is just a guy who got hot at the right time in the playoffs. Now thats a guy that didn't deserve a big contract.

[Guiness]

and for the record, i don't think luck is elite while kapernick isn't. i don't think any of the young guys are elite yet. they all show potential, but IMO they all have a long way to go.

agree with you on that, see my post in the other thread



none of them are worth 100 million yet IMO. when did we start paying out 100 million for potential?

at least a-rod was already well established as one of if not the best QB in the game when he got his huge deal, kap, just got a-rod like money based on the idea that some day he might be as good as a-rod

to me thats stupid

He really didn't get a-rod money though. He got good money, not great, and the team made no long term commitment. He could be cut any time after year 2 (or even year 1, really) with some cap impact, but not crippling. Also, his base salaries are not that high! His base increases every year, and the last 2 years of the deal, 2019 and 2020, have 18.8 and 21.1M base numbers. He only gets a sniff of that 20M number a long time from now.

After 2 years, the 49ers will have paid him $25-27M (the 2M de-escalator), and if they cut him before Apr 1 2016 there would be 8M in dead money.

[Brandon494]

So, Kaepernick and Luck aren't that far apart and it looks like Wilson doesn't have to do much but be efficient. So, if his numbers are roughly on par with Kaepernick (who plays for a far superior team), wouldn't it stand to reason that Luck would be even better if they could fix the many holes the Colts have?

I don't know if he would have because Luck has shown he is more turnover prone than both those guys. Wilson didn't put up big numbers but he didn't have ONE turnover in the playoffs. Luck had more than double the TOs in 2 games than Wilson and Kaep had combined during 6 games in the postseason. Now he had a hell of a comeback against the Chiefs but he was the reason they were down that much in the first place. He was also the reason they lost to the Pats throwing 4 INTs. Now you can argue he has to throw the ball more because he doesn't have the talent on defense but I watched both those games and he made some horrible decisions with the ball.

[Guiness]

I don't know if he would have because Luck has shown he is more turnover prone than both those guys. Wilson didn't put up big numbers but he didn't have ONE turnover in the playoffs. Luck had more than double the TOs in 2 games than Wilson and Kaep had combined during 6 games in the postseason. Now he had a hell of a comeback against the Chiefs but he was the reason they were down that much in the first place. He was also the reason they lost to the Pats throwing 4 INTs. Now you can argue he has to throw the ball more because he doesn't have the talent on defense but I watched both those games and he made some horrible decisions with the ball.

IMO the guy I would most compare Wilson to is Joe Cool. He seems very calm in the big games.

[Striker]

That comment makes no sense, its the NFL! On one can win the Superbowl by themselves, its a team game. You think Rodgers won it by himself? We had the #1 defense that year but I guess you guys just forgot about that.

You're all over the place here.

My comment was sarcasm, and coming off of what you said that "Wilson won the Super Bowl" and "Kaep led his team to the Super Bowl".

Secondly, in reply to the other posts you have following this one, it seems like you're simply going off of raw numbers (QBR and passer rating) to prove that Wilson is better. Yet he accounts for about 60 percent of his team's offense whereas Luck and even Kaepernick mean more to their teams (and in Luck's case, is trying to do a lot more with a lot less).

Though you did admit there's some Homer-ism blinding you with regards to Wilson, so that makes sense as to why you're so insistent about his abilities over the other two.

The biggest thing that separates Wilson from Luck is that Wilson will take what the defense gives him/lives to play another day. Luck is a bit too "Favre-esque" in that he'll force the issue to try to make the play which leads to the turnovers. If he curbs that habit, he'll easily separate himself from the other two.

[red]

i think the reason you may hear about luck being the better QB compared to the other two is because, and i think someone else might have already touched on it, he is the more classic pocket QB

when you go down the list of the great QB's of all time, you see a bunch of pocket passers. guys like cunningham or flutie or vick are gonna be pretty far down the list, even though they showed something special in their primes

hell, steve young was a hell of a scrambling QB and a damn good passer, he's usually not in the "best QB's ever" discussion though

so i can understand the thinking that the best QB out of the group of young guys out there is gonna end up being a classic pocket passer

[pbmax]

Everyone has failed so far to recognize that my list was correct, 100%.

All the rest is essentially complaining about Luck, CK and Wilson beating the Packers and trying to puff up the competition to make yourselves feel better.

Also, Kap's contract is about 30% fraudulent.