So if the defense is terrible again this season?

[Rutnstrut]

Does Capers finally get fired? Does TT get most of the blame? How about stubby, he should get some for keeping Capers? I ask these questions because even though the draft is yet to come, I really don't have much hope for this defense. A lot of the same players, and the same over rated coordinator equals mediocre at best.

[red]

fans and the team will probably just come up with another excuse for the D

its not like last year was the first year the D sucked

look at slocum, ST's have been shit for years under him, yet M3 won't remove him

[3irty1]

Terrible with or without leading the league in injuries?

[red]

right on cue

[Brandon494]

Reasons why our defense will be improved...

-Clay hopefully won't be out 40% of the season.

-Added Peppers who paired with Clay make for one of the better pass rushing duos in the league which should help the secondary.

-Hayward will be back adding the play making ability we were so lacking last season.

-Tramon's shoulder seems to be fully healthy and looks back to his old form.

-New starter at safety, whether it be a rookie or Hyde it will be an improvement.

-B.J. Raji moves back to NT where he put up Pro Bowl numbers.

-Daniels, Neal, and Jones also provide good pass rush from the D-line.

-New rookie starter at ILB?



If we don't get hit by the injury bug again we should have a top 15 defense easily IMO.

[mraynrand]

APRH, if the defense tanks the team, Capers will get canned; probably not Stubby, even if it's really, really bad.

[Pugger]

Reasons why our defense will be improved...

-Clay hopefully won't be out 40% of the season.

-Added Peppers who paired with Clay make for one of the better pass rushing duos in the league which should help the secondary.

-Hayward will be back adding the play making ability we were so lacking last season.

-Tramon's shoulder seems to be fully healthy and looks back to his old form.

-New starter at safety, whether it be a rookie or Hyde it will be an improvement.

-B.J. Raji moves back to NT where he put up Pro Bowl numbers.

-Daniels, Neal, and Jones also provide good pass rush from the D-line.

-New rookie starter at ILB?



If we don't get hit by the injury bug again we should have a top 15 defense easily IMO.

Agreed. We don't need the '85 Bears D to win this season either.

[red]

Terrible with or without leading the league in injuries?


right on cue

negative rep and being called a dipshit for that?

fucking little cry baby pussy

heres a website that might be better suited for you

http://mlpforums.com/forum/1-my-little-pony-friendship-is-magic/

[Brandon494]

Does Capers finally get fired? Does TT get most of the blame? How about stubby, he should get some for keeping Capers? I ask these questions because even though the draft is yet to come, I really don't have much hope for this defense. A lot of the same players, and the same over rated coordinator equals mediocre at best.

So if we win the Super Bowl this year will you and Wist disappear for a year again?

[mraynrand]

right on cue

right on cue

[mraynrand]

negative rep and being called a dipshit for that?

fucking little cry baby pussy

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Zj9ZnPYmL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-v3-big,TopRight,0,-55_SX278_SY278_PIkin4,BottomRight,1,22_AA300_SH20_ OU01_.jpg

[Rutnstrut]

Reasons why our defense will be improved...

-Clay hopefully won't be out 40% of the season.

-Added Peppers who paired with Clay make for one of the better pass rushing duos in the league which should help the secondary.

-Hayward will be back adding the play making ability we were so lacking last season.

-Tramon's shoulder seems to be fully healthy and looks back to his old form.

-New starter at safety, whether it be a rookie or Hyde it will be an improvement.

-B.J. Raji moves back to NT where he put up Pro Bowl numbers.

-Daniels, Neal, and Jones also provide good pass rush from the D-line.

-New rookie starter at ILB?



If we don't get hit by the injury bug again we should have a top 15 defense easily IMO.

IMO,many of the things you listed are actually a reason to be skeptical.
-clay will be hurt AGAIN, he's just not durable.
-Peppers may be a great signing, but I'm doubtful.
-Hayward and Tramon I think will actually have good seasons.
-safety, well I have zero confidence there although it couldn't get worse.
-raji, most worthless bag of shit on the team. Moving him shouldn't determine effort, I have no love for players with no heart.
-ILB, I have zero faith in any coaching staff that believes Brad Jones has talent.

[Smidgeon]

Reasons why our defense will be improved...

-Clay hopefully won't be out 40% of the season.

-Added Peppers who paired with Clay make for one of the better pass rushing duos in the league which should help the secondary.

-Hayward will be back adding the play making ability we were so lacking last season.

-Tramon's shoulder seems to be fully healthy and looks back to his old form.

-New starter at safety, whether it be a rookie or Hyde it will be an improvement.

-B.J. Raji moves back to NT where he put up Pro Bowl numbers.

-Daniels, Neal, and Jones also provide good pass rush from the D-line.

-New rookie starter at ILB?



If we don't get hit by the injury bug again we should have a top 15 defense easily IMO.

So...above average?

[denverYooper]

So...above average?

Just like the children from Lake Wobegon.

[Zool]

So...above average?

Average is a huge improvement over the last couple years. Imagine, the O only scores 21 points and the Packers still win the game. It could be a reality.

[Rutnstrut]

Average would be a huge upgrade over the last few years, I would be happy with average.

[Freak Out]

right on cue

Wrong thread.

[denverYooper]

Ahhh, the offseason where hope springs eternal.

[Fritz]

...they won't win the Super Bowl.

[Tony Oday]

Packers Win the SB over Manning to Avenge the loss when they CHEATED!!!!

Hyde should be extended now for 5 years since he will be the best Safety in the NFC next year

Raji Dominates and is gone in the offseason to make it rain

CMIII is hurt again but only for 1 quarter

Peppers gets 15 sacks

[denverYooper]

Whatevs guys, TT's hitting idkfa this year.

[gbgary]

if we're bad again it's on tt for keeping capers and drafting for o in 2014.

[Bretsky]

If we don't upgrade at safety and our D struggles there again all of packerrats should call Ted Thompson a complete dipshit for missing the boat AGAIN at that position

[red]

If we don't upgrade at safety and our D struggles there again all of packerrats should call Ted Thompson a complete dipshit for missing the boat AGAIN at that position

nope, it will be injuries fault. nick collins injury to be exact. from 3 years ago

i base this on the fact that i heard it a few times this offseason as to why our d sucked last year, and the year before

[Bretsky]

nope, it will be injuries fault. nick collins injury to be exact. from 3 years ago

i base this on the fact that i heard it a few times this offseason as to why our d sucked last year, and the year before


On offense we've went long spells without several key players due to injury and we were just fine. Now w/o AROD we're screwed and we know that. But when AROD was there think of some of the injuries we've overcome and stayed well above water.

We're much better and deeper......... on that side of the ball.

[red]

On offense we've went long spells without several key players due to injury and we were just fine. Now w/o AROD we're screwed and we know that. But when AROD was there think of some of the injuries we've overcome and stayed well above water.

We're much better and deeper......... on that side of the ball.

and some would argue that with all the first and second round draft picks that are on the defense, we should be pretty deep there too

[Bretsky]

and some would argue that with all the first and second round draft picks that are on the defense, we should be pretty deep there too

Worthy is either lazy, a bad fit, or has been both so far. Perry belongs in a 4-3 and "before" the draft many in here noted that more than once. Either we're making sub par picks or not developing players on the DL

[mraynrand]

^^^ Worthy, like everyone else, was injured. Even though it's right on cue, it is really difficult to assess the defense with all those guys hurt.

It would be nice if we could just toss Capers into a burlap sack, beat him with reeds, and have the whole defense fixed, but it's probably not that simple.

But, this is getting repetitive. I'm gonna take a pass on this subject from now 'til camp....

[Zool]

So if what I'm reading is correct,

Injuries do not matter. It's an all or nothing proposition. If all 11 starters on D miss 8 games this year, the D should still be good no matter what. Anyone that says injuries are a factor is an idiot homer.

Does this about sum it up?

[red]

injuries happen in football, deal with it

and most of the major injuries last year happened to guys on the offense, and the offense still ranked 3rd in the entire NFL in yards and 8th in points per game

the defense lost their #3 cb, their OLB (and best player for about half a year), and a situational d-lineman (worthy). others might have missed a game or two for some bumps and bruises. but for the most part this unit was intact minus their best player for half a year.

they still ranked as one of the worst in the nfl

on offense, the until lost its best player (rodgers) for half the year, and the backup QB for the year. their #2 WR (cobb) for 2/3rds of the year, the top TE for for 2/3rds of the year. the starting LT or RT for whole season (bulaga), the other possible starter at tackle, or at least top backup (sherrod) for the whole season. their top RB (lacy) for a couple games, and some games missed by other guys here and there for bumps and bruises

if any unit should have sucked because of injuries it was the offense, yet they managed to overcome the injuries to still rank near the top

[3irty1]

negative rep and being called a dipshit for that?

fucking little cry baby pussy

heres a website that might be better suited for you

http://mlpforums.com/forum/1-my-little-pony-friendship-is-magic/

Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just telling you how you're acting and helping your fake internet points better reflect your actual reputation as an armchair GM on a throne of hubris, hyperbole, and militant argument from ignorance. I have no issue with you spouting your trash, everyone does that on this site, but being right about predicting opposition to an idea isn't the same as being right, its building a red herring (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoratio_elenchi#Red_herring)to poison the well (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well)... aka being a dipshit.

Calling someone a little cry baby pussy over your fake internet points seems a little self-contradicting as well.

[3irty1]

Average is a huge improvement over the last couple years. Imagine, the O only scores 21 points and the Packers still win the game. It could be a reality.

The playoff game is all that people remember but in 2012 we were the 11th ranked scoring defense despite the injury luck. At the beginning of 2013 it looked like we were building on that as well, I think at one point they even breached the top 10 before collapsing to 24th. Top 15 isn't just within reach it should be expected IMO.

[Brandon494]

If we don't upgrade at safety and our D struggles there again all of packerrats should call Ted Thompson a complete dipshit for missing the boat AGAIN at that position

4 years ago it was CB, then O-line, then HB, and now S....you guys do realize every team in the NFL has a weakest. Can't have pro bowlers at every position and while I agree he does need to upgrade the position the man is far from a dipshit just because we don't win the Super Bowl every season.

[woodbuck27]

If we don't upgrade at safety and our D struggles there again all of packerrats should call Ted Thompson a complete dipshit for missing the boat AGAIN at that position

Excuses ....we'll get.... excuses.
We'll see.... excuses.... more... excuses.
Excuses .....marvellously invented excuses.
The best excuses .....ever..... seen.

[woodbuck27]

4 years ago it was CB, then O-line, then HB, and now S....you guys do realize every team in the NFL has a weakest. Can't have pro bowlers at every position and while I agree he does need to upgrade the position the man is far from a dipshit just because we don't win the Super Bowl every season.

How about simply advancing to the NFC Championship game as we saw with the R. Wolf; M. Sherman; T. Thompson / B. Favre era.

The Brett Favre - Ron Wolf; Mike Sherman and Ted Thompson era (1992 - 2007 or 16 Seasons) produced Four (4) NFC Championship games and two (2) NFC Champonships under Green Bay Packers GM Ron Wolf and Brett Favre (1992 - 2007).

Vs:

The Ted Thompson era 2005 -2013 or nine (9) Seasons = One (1) NFC Championship game and one (1) Championship.

Is Ted Thompson wasting Aaron Rodgers outstanding skill set?

[mraynrand]

How about simply advancing to the NFC Championship game as we saw with the R. Wolf; M. Sherman; T. Thompson / B. Favre era.

The Brett Favre - Ron Wolf; Mike Sherman and Ted Thompson era (1992 - 2007 or 16 Seasons) produced Four (4) NFC Championship games and two (2) NFC Champonships under Green Bay Packers GM Ron Wolf and Brett Favre (1992 - 2007).

Vs:

The Ted Thompson era 2005 -2013 or nine (9) Seasons = One (1) NFC Championship game and one (1) Championship.

Is Ted Thompson wasting Aaron Rodgers outstanding skill set?

2 NFC Championship games. Pay attention.

[denverYooper]

Fish in a barrel.

[denverYooper]

How about simply advancing to the NFC Championship game as we saw with the R. Wolf; M. Sherman; T. Thompson / B. Favre era.

The Brett Favre - Ron Wolf; Mike Sherman and Ted Thompson era (1992 - 2007 or 16 Seasons) produced Four (4) NFC Championship games and two (2) NFC Champonships under Green Bay Packers GM Ron Wolf and Brett Favre (1992 - 2007).

Vs:

The Ted Thompson era 2005 -2013 or nine (9) Seasons = One (1) NFC Championship game and one (1) Championship.

Is Ted Thompson wasting Aaron Rodgers outstanding skill set?

It seems that you're muddling Brett Favre's career into your TT vs Wolf comparison.

Wolf was GM for 9 seasons. His postseason record: 1992 missed; 1993, 1994 lost in divisional; 1995 lost NFCC; 1996 won SB; 1997 lost SB; 1998 lost WC; 1999 missed; 2000 missed
Ted Thompson has been GM for 9 seasons. His postseasons: 2005, 2006: missed; 2007: NFCC; 2008: missed; 2009: lost WC; 2010 won SB; 2011 lost div; 2012 lost div; 2013 lost WC.

Both made the playoffs 6/9 times as GM. Both had 1 SB victory, 1 lost NFCC, 2 divisional losses, and 1 WC loss. The main difference is that Wolf made it to a second Superbowl.

[MadtownPacker]

TT has gone all out IMO. I'm happy with what has happened. If it goes sour then goodbye Capers cuz I think TT is writing his swan song and wants a spectacular finish.

[Joemailman]

TT has gone all out IMO. I'm happy with what has happened. If it goes sour then goodbye Capers cuz I think TT is writing his swan song and wants a spectacular finish.

Except that TT needs to come up with a Safety. Maybe it's Hyde. Maybe it's someone else. But it's not Capers' fault that M.D. Jennings was terrible.

[MadtownPacker]

Obviously you will be in the excuses crowd.

TT will draft his safety, one to fill the emptiness Collins left in his and our football luvin hearts.

[red]

TT has gone all out IMO. I'm happy with what has happened. If it goes sour then goodbye Capers cuz I think TT is writing his swan song and wants a spectacular finish.

i don't know, i already see a pretty big excuse for capers not being fired next offseason

its because he and m3 tried to tinker with the D and "it just didn't work out, no ones fault, they tried something new, and it didn't work yet, these things take time to adjust to"

[Joemailman]

i don't know, i already see a pretty big excuse for capers not being fired next offseason

its because he and m3 tried to tinker with the D and "it just didn't work out, no ones fault, they tried something new, and it didn't work yet, these things take time to adjust to"

I'm starting to think that MM had about had it with Capers, and demanded some changes in the way players are utilized. I think this may be Capers' last chance.

[red]

I'm starting to think that MM had about had it with Capers, and demanded some changes in the way players are utilized. I think this may be Capers' last chance.

haven't we been saying for years now that m3 has had to have had it with slocum, and the he "has to be his last chance", only for him to fail but still keep his job?

i won't believe capers is in danger of being fired until maybe a month or 2 after he actually gets fired

i just don't think m3 can fire anyone, i brought it up during the season. in order to get rid of capers and slocum, we might have to get rid of M3, or threaten to fire m3 if he does can those guys

and i don't think TT is capable of doing that to be honest

[Pugger]

So if what I'm reading is correct,

Injuries do not matter. It's an all or nothing proposition. If all 11 starters on D miss 8 games this year, the D should still be good no matter what. Anyone that says injuries are a factor is an idiot homer.

Does this about sum it up?

Yup. :lol:

[Pugger]

haven't we been saying for years now that m3 has had to have had it with slocum, and the he "has to be his last chance", only for him to fail but still keep his job?

i won't believe capers is in danger of being fired until maybe a month or 2 after he actually gets fired

i just don't think m3 can fire anyone, i brought it up during the season. in order to get rid of capers and slocum, we might have to get rid of M3, or threaten to fire m3 if he does can those guys

and i don't think TT is capable of doing that to be honest

Maybe we should be directing our ire about Capers in McCarthy's direction instead of TT seeing Mike is the one who hires and fires assistants.

[pbmax]

Actually, no, McCarthy leaning on Capers to play less scheme and more players plus the acquisition of a player (type) requested by the coordinator is a different level of pressure than Slocum has experienced.

The only time it might be comparable would be his first year when another ST coordinator described his wacky schemes as "unique" and "potentially unsound". He dialed it back the following year.

I would say Capers is under some strain.

[LEWCWA]

How about simply advancing to the NFC Championship game as we saw with the R. Wolf; M. Sherman; T. Thompson / B. Favre era.

The Brett Favre - Ron Wolf; Mike Sherman and Ted Thompson era (1992 - 2007 or 16 Seasons) produced Four (4) NFC Championship games and two (2) NFC Champonships under Green Bay Packers GM Ron Wolf and Brett Favre (1992 - 2007).

Vs:

The Ted Thompson era 2005 -2013 or nine (9) Seasons = One (1) NFC Championship game and one (1) Championship.

Is Ted Thompson wasting Aaron Rodgers outstanding skill set?

I think they went to another NFC championship under TED, or was I dreaming about Favre's last game?

[woodbuck27]

It seems that you're muddling Brett Favre's career into your TT vs Wolf comparison.

Wolf was GM for 9 seasons. His postseason record: 1992 missed; 1993, 1994 lost in divisional; 1995 lost NFCC; 1996 won SB; 1997 lost SB; 1998 lost WC; 1999 missed; 2000 missed
Ted Thompson has been GM for 9 seasons. His postseasons: 2005, 2006: missed; 2007: NFCC; 2008: missed; 2009: lost WC; 2010 won SB; 2011 lost div; 2012 lost div; 2013 lost WC.

Both made the playoffs 6/9 times as GM. Both had 1 SB victory, 1 lost NFCC, 2 divisional losses, and 1 WC loss. The main difference is that Wolf made it to a second Superbowl.

Wolf saw his Packers make it to three consecutive NFC Championship games and winning two to go to the Super Bowl from 1995-98. Then Brett Favre was arguably the best football player on the planet and winning or sharing (1997 - with Detroit LIONS RB Barry Sanders) three consecutive NFL MVP's backs that fact up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFC_Championship_Game

[Just Jeff]

It called draft and develop. TT found the gems, its up to MM to develop them. Give it time.

[mraynrand]

Wolf saw his Packers make it to three consecutive NFC Championship games and winning two to go to the Super Bowl from 1995-98. Then Brett Favre was arguably the best football player on the planet and winning or sharing (1997 - with Detroit LIONS RB Barry Sanders) three consecutive NFL MVP's backs that fact up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFC_Championship_Game

try reading a little slower, and you might get it the second time. "The main difference is that Wolf made it to a second Superbowl." Think, McFly, think!

[denverYooper]

try reading a little slower, and you might get it the second time. "The main difference is that Wolf made it to a second Superbowl." Think, McFly, think!

Woody is stuck on the ordering of events. The rise and fall of the team made a much smoother curve during Wolf's tenure. Under TT, the team's trajectory has not been as nicely described by a simple rise and fall, but his bag of marbles is nearly identical--save for his one steely where Wolf has an extra shooter with a big old crack in it.

If we're applying a simple binary scoring based on winning all of the marbles -- which for many of the gnashers and wailers is the only way to evaluate a season -- the score is tied.

[mraynrand]

If we're applying a simple binary scoring based on winning all of the marbles -- which for many of the gnashers and wailers is the only way to evaluate a season -- the score is tied.

I saw that two-part "A Football Life" and 'ol Vince Lombardi said he regretted his statement about winning is the only thing. I'm paraphrasing, but he basically said that if you give everything you have in pursuit of your goal, that's what ultimately matters. I agree, that's all a person can do, and all a coach or GM can expect. So when your best just isn't good enough, YOU'RE FIRED! HIT THE ROAD YOU LOUSY BUM!!!!

[ThunderDan]

HIT THE ROAD YOU LOUSY BUM!!!!

I didn't realize this was a Houston Oilers thread until now.

[pbmax]

I saw that two-part "A Football Life" and 'ol Vince Lombardi said he regretted his statement about winning is the only thing. I'm paraphrasing, but he basically said that if you give everything you have in pursuit of your goal, that's what ultimately matters. I agree, that's all a person can do, and all a coach or GM can expect. So when your best just isn't good enough, YOU'RE FIRED! HIT THE ROAD YOU LOUSY BUM!!!!

I agree with him."Winning is the only thing" also lead to a lot of bad corollaries (2nd is first loser, don't believe in moral victories, defeat only teaches you how to lose, etc.) that tend to diminish what you can learn in the struggle but not yet successful phase of any endeavor.

[ThunderDan]

I agree with him."Winning is the only thing" also lead to a lot of bad corollaries (2nd is first loser, don't believe in moral victories, defeat only teaches you how to lose, etc.) that tend to diminish what you can learn in the struggle but not yet successful phase of any endeavor.

I think this why John Wooden was such a good coach. He would challenge his players to play the best thye could. Sometimes John would yell at the team after winning by 12 if the effort was lacking in an easy win.

He also got into an argument with Red Auerbach. Some reporter asked how some famous coaches got their players to play at a high level. Red said something like, "I demand 110% out of players every day." John Wooden replied, "By definition you can only achieve 100%. I am happy to get 90% from my players"

[mraynrand]

I didn't realize this was a Houston Oilers thread until now.

Dude had a lot of character/was a character.

http://static.foxsports.com/content/fscom/img/2013/10/18/101813-NFL-New-Orleans-Saints-Bum-Phillips-TV-Pi_20131018231915430_660_320.JPG

[pbmax]

I think this why John Wooden was such a good coach. He would challenge his players to play the best thye could. Sometimes John would yell at the team after winning by 12 if the effort was lacking in an easy win.

He also got into an argument with Red Auerbach. Some reporter asked how some famous coaches got their players to play at a high level. Red said something like, "I demand 110% out of players every day." John Wooden replied, "By definition you can only achieve 100%. I am happy to get 90% from my players"

That last line goes back to an argument we had a while back about the team goals for some stat. The goal was 100% perfection and anything else was considered failure (don't remember the unit or the action tracked). Sides quickly formed up about whether perfection (or better) was a good goal.

It makes a nice rallying cry, but if you actually want to see change you can track, monitor and update, it has to be realistic.

[Cheesehead Craig]

APRH, if the defense tanks the team, Capers will get canned; probably not Stubby, even if it's really, really bad.

Pretty much agree with this.

[MadtownPacker]

It called draft and develop. TT found the gems, its up to MM to develop them. Give it time.
Welcome to the forum!

Ok now that the pleasantries are out of the way....
TT's action say he does not plan to be around too much longer. His talent has developed, some has left but there is a strong core to add pieces to and have some well placed rookies in. Think it's why Caper avoided the chopping block. TT doesn't want to blow it up, he wants to work with what he has built for his final run as GM IMO.

[Just Jeff]

Welcome to the forum!

Ok now that the pleasantries are out of the way....
TT's action say he does not plan to be around too much longer. His talent has developed, some has left but there is a strong core to add pieces to and have some well placed rookies in. Think it's why Caper avoided the chopping block. TT doesn't want to blow it up, he wants to work with what he has built for his final run as GM IMO.

Say its not so. TT is the face of this organization. He saved us from cap hell. won a Superbowl. Showed the NFL how to draft. Makes us a contender every year. I pity Packer life after TT.

[Brandon494]

Say its not so. TT is the face of this organization. He saved us from cap hell. won a Superbowl. Showed the NFL how to draft. Makes us a contender every year. I pity Packer life after TT.

I like this guy!

[ThunderDan]

Say its not so. TT is the face of this organization. He saved us from cap hell. won a Superbowl. Showed the NFL how to draft. Makes us a contender every year. I pity Packer life after TT.


I like this guy!

And Red rails on us as TT apologists.

[red]

yeah, new guys gonna fit right in around here

satin give me strength

[mraynrand]

yeah, new guys gonna fit right in around here

satin give me strength

Yes sir!

http://www.divashq.com/11828-thickbox/sexy-satin-dress-.jpg

[Bretsky]

Say its not so. TT is the face of this organization. He saved us from cap hell. won a Superbowl. Showed the NFL how to draft. Makes us a contender every year. I pity Packer life after TT.

Is life under TT any better than life under Ron Wolf ?

[red]

Yes sir!

http://www.divashq.com/11828-thickbox/sexy-satin-dress-.jpg

damnit it

but this worked out just fine

[HarveyWallbangers]

If the defense doesn't improve, Capers will be gone. I think that writing is on the wall from McCarthy's actions this offseason (e.g. taking more interest in the defense and not just giving Capers free reign).

[Pugger]

Is life under TT any better than life under Ron Wolf ?

Its about the same. Both won a SB. Wolf's teams appeared in 3 conference championships (lost in '95) and TT 2 . Wolf won 3 division titles and TT 4. We got to a second SB with Wolf but we all remember how that one ended.

[Brandon494]

Is life under TT any better than life under Ron Wolf ?

I remember life under Mike Sherman... A punter in the 3rd round???? :bang:

[red]

I remember life under Mike Sherman... A punter in the 3rd round???? :bang:

and not even a good punter. a punter that was out of the nfl within a year

if you're gonna take a punter in the third, he damn well better be the punting equivalent of jesus

this sums up bj sanders. his career long punt......


53 yards, no joke

[gbgary]

then when they DID get an all-world punter (hentrich) they let him get away.

[MadtownPacker]

damnit it

but this worked out just fine
She can't be a Gabacha, look at the hips. They don't lie. :lol:

[Rutnstrut]

Yes sir!

http://www.divashq.com/11828-thickbox/sexy-satin-dress-.jpg

So now when I go to church tomorrow, and the pastor starts rambling about "satin" I'll just have a goofy grin on my face.

[bobblehead]

So now when I go to church tomorrow, and the pastor starts rambling about "satin" I'll just have a goofy grin on my face.

Tomorrow is opening day...God forgives us for missing church on opening day.

[red]

Tomorrow is opening day...God forgives us for missing church on opening day.

i haven't been to church in at least 10 years, but i think i would rather go to church then to watch fucking baseball

[Spaulding]

Say its not so. TT is the face of this organization. He saved us from cap hell. won a Superbowl. Showed the NFL how to draft. Makes us a contender every year. I pity Packer life after TT.

Welcome and refreshing to hear after the gloom and doom of this thread. Is TT perfect, nobody is, are there better GM's in the league, several many would argue, but is TT one of the better GM's - absolutely.

Maybe a thread topic should be a ranking of the GM's in the NFL to put TT's accomplishments into perspective (good or bad). Outside of the Giant's and Steelers winning two Super Bowl's, I don't believe any team has won more than once since TT's arrival in 2005. Thus Jerry Reese and Kevin Colbert would have to be ranked highest. However the Giants appear to be feast or famine depending on which way the wind is blowing for Eli and the Steelers are in cap hell as of late.

Outside of that, the 49ers (Trent Baalke), Seahawks (John Schneider - TT disciple), and Belichick (Patriots) really no other GM comes to mind. Baalke has never won a SB, Schneider just won his first and so is par with TT now and Belichick although dominate in the years ago hasn't won a SB in a decade now.

At a minimum this leaves TT top ten and at least in my eyes, top five. Does he get a free pass for past laurels now, but this whining about his ability and inability to have the nuts to fire Capers seems forced.

Anyways, my soap box is done now.

[Iron Mike]

So now when I go to church tomorrow, and the pastor starts rambling about "satin" I'll just have a goofy grin on my face.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjZAgNh5X7w

[Brandon494]

Welcome and refreshing to hear after the gloom and doom of this thread. Is TT perfect, nobody is, are there better GM's in the league, several many would argue, but is TT one of the better GM's - absolutely.

Maybe a thread topic should be a ranking of the GM's in the NFL to put TT's accomplishments into perspective (good or bad). Outside of the Giant's and Steelers winning two Super Bowl's, I don't believe any team has won more than once since TT's arrival in 2005. Thus Jerry Reese and Kevin Colbert would have to be ranked highest. However the Giants appear to be feast or famine depending on which way the wind is blowing for Eli and the Steelers are in cap hell as of late.

Outside of that, the 49ers (Trent Baalke), Seahawks (John Schneider - TT disciple), and Belichick (Patriots) really no other GM comes to mind. Baalke has never won a SB, Schneider just won his first and so is par with TT now and Belichick although dominate in the years ago hasn't won a SB in a decade now.

At a minimum this leaves TT top ten and at least in my eyes, top five. Does he get a free pass for past laurels now, but this whining about his ability and inability to have the nuts to fire Capers seems forced.

Anyways, my soap box is done now.

Take out 49ers Trent Baalke and insert Ozzie Newsome from the Ravens.

[Bretsky]

I'd agree that TT is hands down top ten
But don't buy for a second that we cant' find a good replacement so that is why I referenced Ron Wolf and implied we might be just fine after TT goes some day

I don't view Wolf or TT as one being much better than the other; I think they were both very good GM's with altering strategies and comforts for taking risks

[Bretsky]

Take out 49ers Trent Baalke and insert Ozzie Newsome from the Ravens.

I agree you add Newome; I'm not sure you take out the Niner guy

[woodbuck27]

damnit it

but this worked out just fine

A man couldn't draw those curves with a parabola.

[woodbuck27]

Say its not so. TT is the face of this organization. He saved us from cap hell. won a Superbowl. Showed the NFL how to draft. Makes us a contender every year. I pity Packer life after TT.

Ted Thompson layed out a blueprint for the teams roster as long as the CAP grows to absorb the cost of the "Big Two"..

The next GM takes that and adds some assertiveness and we'll see the Packers prosper.

This season will be a telling one for all of PACKER NATION. I hope that Ted Thompson's draft is a very good one this time.

This is a season to take stock. We'll know what we really have after 2014.

GO PACK GO !

[pbmax]

I agree you add Newome; I'm not sure you take out the Niner guy

Baalke's curve crested a bit last year. It will be an interesting year for them. The D performed at a high level most of the time but showed some cracks and they lost another guy. The O really sputtered except against GB.

The ex-Packer who was competing with Baalke (Scot McCloughan) did a lot of the drafting I believe prior to Baalke's ascension. He has some more to prove yet. Schneider has been more consistent in draft and FA. Baalke gets major credit for hiring Harbaugh which was a coup because he had multiple suitors and had to pay a lot to land him.

[mraynrand]

So now when I go to church tomorrow, and the pastor starts rambling about "satin" I'll just have a goofy grin on my face.


My pastor gave me negative rep for posting that picture.

[run pMc]

My pastor gave me negative rep for posting that picture.

I can't look at that picture and think about football.

[Zool]

i haven't been to church in at least 10 years, but i think i would rather go to church then to watch fucking baseball

Would fucking baseball be anything like the lingerie football league? If so, sign me up.

[mraynrand]

Would Fucking Baseball be anything like the lingerie football league? If so, sign me up.

Sounds like a Will Ferrell movie

[Smeefers]

So, has anyone mentioned that we hired zook as a special teams assistant. He's a man with hc and dc experience. Couldn't that hiring be a hint to capers that he needs to shape up?

[mraynrand]

So, has anyone mentioned that we hired zook as a special teams assistant. He's a man with hc and dc experience. Couldn't that hiring be a hint to capers that he needs to shape up?

it was mentioned

[pbmax]

Got brought back to this article today: http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/261284361.html

OK, here is my attempt to reconcile the disparate pronouncements made by the Packers coaching staff this offseason about how the defense will change. McCarthy has been talking about players and losing their offseason plans due to injury, Capers has been talking vanilla D, personnel packages and volume.

1. Fewer alignments. Jumbo sets (both in base 3-4 and the 2-4 tilted to play run D) looks like its not going to be featured with Pick gone and Jolly questionable to return. The Packers have some replacements, Boyd, Guion, but they are not Howard Green types. It would seem these guys (possible exception of Boyd) will see less snaps. So I take this to mean less Jumbo. With fewer alignments to learn (and more reps in certain alignments), younger players might be able to play more.

2. More personnel packages. The offensive variety the Packers see won't diminish, so you still need to matchup. But instead of an alignment change or alteration, they will sub out people to bring different skills onto the field.

3. Duplication of player skills. On a defense that is dependent on its OLB putting pressure on the QB, the Packers were dealt a serious blow with injures to Matthews, Perry and Mulumba. Its easy to read too much into Peppers signing, but a Peppers last year probably makes the D's pass rush more of a threat every down even if he is paired with Nate Palmer. I don't know if OLBs could be more important to this team, but Peppers specifically at OLB means the Packers are committing resources to the position so that even the normal run of injuries won't decimate it and cause half the playbook to be tossed aside. There are two basic types of D lineman bodies on this roster outside of Raji and its either DE from a 3-4 or a 4-3 3-technique tackle. Without much Jumbo, those players are a bit more interchangeable than last year when pass rush and quickness often had to be sacrificed for stoutness.

4. No matter how you try to square the very general pronouncements, there is always a conflict or two and we won't know the reality until preseason games. This is evident with Item #2; by going with more interchangeable body types, the skill sets kinda start to merge. There are a lot of D lineman who are supposed to supply a pass rush, but fewer who are run pluggers. this does have the advantage of making it less likely you cannot run your favorite packagers after injuries (something M3 has mentioned). However, it means you could get short handed against specific kinds of teams.

5. Capers really singles out personnel groups. So what alignments with the most successful players dictate? I'm not sure anyone knows, but they haven't shown anything in camp that is a radical departure according to press coverage. But Capers does mention Woodson, who played himself into a new position in nickel. Could the same thing happen with Peppers and Matthews?

[run pMc]

I think you can assume Clay will miss games due to injuries, and Perry hasn't stayed healthy. Last year Neal played more snaps than I think they expected him to, and Palmer/Mulumba were rookies, so they were pretty green at the position. I wouldn't be surprised if that affected some of the plays, there wasn't a lot of experience at OLB on game day. Adding Peppers, getting people back healthy, last year's rookies being in the system a full year, and adding Carl Bradford should help the OLB depth tremendously.

I'm unclear on the DL -- I thought they wanted to get more traditional 3-4 DE's, but they drafted Thornton with guys like Urban on the board. Pickett and Jolly won't be back, and I think Worthy has to show something this year or he's gone too. I think they want more quickness and pass rush from the DL; we'll see if that works. I wonder what the run defense will actually look like, although I'm not sure Pickett and Jolly were giving that much more there than what they can get from some of the young guys.

Seems like they do have more duplicate types at spots, so some of those comments make sense. One player gets hurt, you can plug another similar player in and keep calling the same game vs. having to adjust your calls and throw out a chunk of your prep for that week.

The guy I think of when Capers talks Woodson is Micah Hyde. I think they want to train him to be a hybrid and move him around. I don't think he's near as good as Woodson, but not many are. Still, he could be someone who blitzes one down and covers out of the slot the next while letting you play Burnett and HHCD elsewhere on the field.

[Pugger]

:oops:

[Pugger]

:whist:

Sorry about wasting this bandwidth.

[woodbuck27]

3. Duplication of player skills. On a defense that is dependent on its OLB putting pressure on the QB, the Packers were dealt a serious blow with injures to Matthews, Perry and Mulumba. Its easy to read too much into Peppers signing, but a Peppers last year probably makes the D's pass rush more of a threat every down even if he is paired with Nate Palmer. I don't know if OLBs could be more important to this team, but Peppers specifically at OLB means the Packers are committing resources to the position so that even the normal run of injuries won't decimate it and cause half the playbook to be tossed aside. .... Fr. post #91 pbmax


http://www.packers.com/media-center/videos/Video_Ask_Vic_Lots_of_Linebackers/818ba279-9042-4772-95a8-2ebd31570587

Video Ask Vic: Lots of Linebackers

In this 'Video Ask Vic,' packers.com editor Vic Ketchman gives his thoughts on the inside linebacker position in the Packers base 3-4 defensive scheme.

[Fritz]

If the defense is terrible again this season, then fire Dom.

Or keep him on as the defensive backs coach, and make him go without his rug.

[Striker]

I hope it's more "vanilla". Get the younger guys proficient at doing the basics of the 3-4 first...then add the rocket science. The less rampant confusion in coverage, the better.

[pbmax]

Defensive Line Updates

1. Jolly has been cleared by his Doc

2. Guion has been the backup nose for Raji

3. Daniels and Jones seem most like to start with Raji (but this observation is noticeably light on details or evidence)

4. Worthy has not taken a snap since his injure

5. Daniels has been the vocal leader

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2014/06/28/green-bay-packers-defensive-line-ryan-pickett-johnny-jolly/11640681/?sf27904902=1

[Patler]

Defensive Line Updates

1. Jolly has been cleared by his Doc

2. Guion has been the backup nose for Raji

3. Daniels and Jones seem most like to start with Raji (but this observation is noticeably light on details or evidence)

4. Worthy has not taken a snap since his injure

5. Daniels has been the vocal leader

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2014/06/28/green-bay-packers-defensive-line-ryan-pickett-johnny-jolly/11640681/?sf27904902=1


6. Picket told Sirius radio that he intends to play in 2014, preferably in Green Bay.

[Joemailman]

I'm thinking Worthy could be done here. He hasn't been healthy for a while, and didn't stand out when he was healthy. That could open up a spot for either Pickett or Jolly.

[Smidgeon]

I'm thinking Worthy could be done here. He hasn't been healthy for a while, and didn't stand out when he was healthy. That could open up a spot for either Pickett or Jolly.

I was pretty sure Worthy was done...until I was reminded in an article that Daniels and Worthy didn't show much in their first year. Daniels jumped in his second year while Worthy was recovering from an injury.

Now I don't expect Worthy to jump, but it's possible, so I'm now withholding the judgment I previously wasn't withholding.

[Patler]

The Packers tend to be patient with injured players, especially early in their careers. Worthy didn't have a lot of production in his rookie year, but he was regarded highly enough that he played around 450 snaps. Last year was simply lost to his injury at the end of 2012. I would be surprised if they gave up this quickly on him.

[Fritz]

I'm in agreement. He probably will be ready to go for training camp, and I suspect he'll get a lot of snaps in preseason to see where he's at.

I wonder if he's added any weight or worked on his quickness while he's been off.

[Pugger]

The Packers tend to be patient with injured players, especially early in their careers. Worthy didn't have a lot of production in his rookie year, but he was regarded highly enough that he played around 450 snaps. Last year was simply lost to his injury at the end of 2012. I would be surprised if they gave up this quickly on him.

There must have been something we liked about him to draft him in the 2nd round...

[Patler]

I'm in agreement. He probably will be ready to go for training camp, and I suspect he'll get a lot of snaps in preseason to see where he's at.

I wonder if he's added any weight or worked on his quickness while he's been off.

I saw an article a while back that said he purposely lost about 20 pounds last off-season, essentially to get rid of baby-fat, then began a weight training program to build back up with added muscle weight. It was all part of their plan to reshape his body for the NFL.

[Fritz]

Well, that's good to hear. My memory of him from his rookie year is watching him try to quick-rush at the snap, like KGB used to do, except Worthy would get swallowed up and never did, in my recollection, disengage from the blocker.

His quickness was his calling card at Michigan State; he needs that, but he needs some moves and he needs some strength. My hope is that he has both of those by the end of training camp, along with his health.

[pbmax]

SI_DougFarrar @SI_DougFarrar · 2h
Reviewing Ha Ha Clinton-Dix tape for a piece today, and the thing I like most about him is that the dude thinks he can make every play.

SI_DougFarrar @SI_DougFarrar · 2h
There's a defiance to Earl Thomas' game. "I know YOU can't make that play, but **** off. I'm Earl Thomas." Clinton-Dix has some of that.

Well then he went ahead and wrote an article:

SI NFL ‏@si_nfl 16m
Is Ha Ha Clinton-Dix the right man to revive the #Packers defense? @SI_DougFarrar thinks so: http://on.si.com/1jK48f3

[pbmax]

Man, I am not getting the disdain for Perry this offseason. Now Moss is chiming in. They usually are far more relaxed about injuries.


Perry returned for the final six games, but wasn't the same player. He then missed the entire off-season with an undisclosed injury.

Perry has now missed 17 of 35 games in his short career (including playoffs). And Green Bay's coaches seem to be out of patience.

"Nick Perry in my book has done absolutely zero," Moss said.

Added Packers head coach Mike McCarthy: "I don't think it helps any player to miss a whole off-season. You have a season to get ready for. You have this much work.

"And to do it all in a nine-week period, and for a player to miss all of it, obviously it's not a good situation to be in. I think any of the players who did not take advantage of this nine-week opportunity or due to injury is definitely something they're going to have to work harder to catch up once training camp starts."

For better or worse, the Packers appear to still be married to veterans A.J. Hawk and Brad Jones at inside linebacker.

But at least Hawk and Jones haven't missed any of the offseason and they know how to lineup correctly.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/much-depends-on-clay-matthews-thumb-b99308792z1-267338011.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

[hoosier]

The only thing that makes sense to me is that the Perry commentary is a motivational strategy. Kevin Greene failed in his efforts to motivate Perry through private channels, so now plan B is to go public. There will not be a plan C.

[Guiness]

The only thing that makes sense to me is that the Perry commentary is a motivational strategy. Kevin Greene failed in his efforts to motivate Perry through private channels, so now plan B is to go public. There will not be a plan C.

Sure seems like it's getting pretty close to the Pack having to see if they'll get a 6th rounder in exchange for him, or just release him outright.

[pbmax]

I actually wonder if that Moss comment was out of context from the article earlier this year. Might he have been uttering some variation of the fresh start?

[wist43]

Perry has been misused from the day he was drafted - I'm sure the guy is completely demoralized and wants out.

Still, mailing it in and refusing to give effort isn't any way to make friends or money - Perry will be gone as soon as his contract is up, and will be looking to land on a team as a 4-3 DE, which is where he belongs.

So Perry will be gone, Worthy will be gone, Raji will be gone... TT and Capers need to get on the same page, or this nonsense will just continue as long as Spraypaintedhair is DC.

[pbmax]

I couldn't find that quote elsewhere, but Moss did say this after McCarthy let fly with those quotes after minicamp:


Asked what Perry is missing, linebackers coach Winston Moss replied, "Everything. Everything." When asked as a follow-up if it's a major setback for Perry, Moss responded, "No, it’s not a setback. He’s missed everything. It’s unfortunate. It’s disappointing."

http://www.espnwisconsin.com/common/more.php?m=49&post_id=38251

[hoosier]

Moss's interview was played on the bill michaels show about a month ago, and the "Nick Perry has done absolutely zero" comment was in response to a question about whether Perry had made any progress since the end of last year. Moss had already stated that Perry didn't show enough last year for a real evaluation, so the absolutely zero comment was on top of that. Clearly a rebuke.

The Moss interview plays a little more than halfway into the clip.

http://media.billmichaelssports.com/a/93315658/06-18-14-wednesday-hour-4.htm

[Patler]

Perry has been misused from the day he was drafted - I'm sure the guy is completely demoralized and wants out.

Still, mailing it in and refusing to give effort isn't any way to make friends or money - Perry will be gone as soon as his contract is up, and will be looking to land on a team as a 4-3 DE, which is where he belongs.

I don't think it is a given at all that he will fit in as a 4-3 DE either. Perry might turn out to be one of those guys who was a decent college player, but doesn't really fit anywhere in the pro game.

He is a fool if he doesn't commit himself heart, soul and body to the "hybrid" DL/LB that the Packers have been talking about for the up coming season. It could be what is best for him, a little of each but a lot of neither.

[pittstang5]

I don't think it is a given at all that he will fit in as a 4-3 DE either. Perry might turn out to be one of those guys who was a decent college player, but doesn't really fit anywhere in the pro game.

He is a fool if he doesn't commit himself heart, soul and body to the "hybrid" DL/LB that the Packers have been talking about for the up coming season. It could be what is best for him, a little of each but a lot of neither.

+1

I don't think Perry's problem is that he wants or is better suited to play 4-3, I think he's just hurt too much and just hasn't had time to fully learn and embrace the position.

At this point, I've given up on getting anything out of Perry. As soon as you think the lights come on and he's about to break out, he gets hurt. Time to move on for me. We have Neal, Peppers, Mathews and a whole bunch of rookies and 2nd year guys that will be chomping at the bit to play. If Perry turns it around, good, but I'm not holding out hope.

[3irty1]

Just playing the odds of the NFL draft crap shoot on a pass rusher, Perry was probably gonna fail and probably would have failed as a 4-3 DE as well. The frustrating part is the injuries is it prolongs his evaluation when you'd really like him to fail quickly if he must fail.

[hoosier]

TT's first round picks since 2005*

Offense
Aaron Rodgers (2005)
Bryan Bulaga (2010)
Derek Sherrod (2011)

Defense
AJ Hawk (2006)
Justin Harrell (2007)
BJ Raji (2009)
Clay Matthews (2009)
Nick Perry (2012)
Datone Jones (2013)
HaHa Clinton Dix (2014)

*players in bold have had development delayed or derailed by injury

If the defense is terrible this year it will because, with one notable exception, TT's first round draft picks on defense don't develop they way they are expected to. Player development might be part of the problem but the most obvious common denominator are the injuries that have plagued this team.

[MadScientist]

Peri was a bad pick from day one. Came in with the wrong attitude about his weight and position. Although he said some better things at the beginning of last year it seems like he still has a poor attitude behind the scenes. He might not make it out of TC this year, if he even gets cleared for it. Just a bust.

Also what is with this 'undisclosed injury' thing. I know they don't like saying anything useful these days, but we learn about things like the cyst that Harris had removed last year, the weird intestinal thing some other guy had a couple of years ago, etc. The coaches seem pissed about this one, like Peri injured himself in a stupid way just before OTA's, or that he had some sort of lingering injury and ignored advise for surgery until just before OTA's so he couldn't get the work in.

[Guiness]

TT's first round picks since 2005*

Offense
Aaron Rodgers (2005)
Bryan Bulaga (2010)
Derek Sherrod (2011)

Defense
AJ Hawk (2006)
Justin Harrell (2007)
BJ Raji (2009)
Clay Matthews (2009)
Nick Perry (2012)
Datone Jones (2013)
HaHa Clinton Dix (2014)

*players in bold have had development delayed or derailed by injury

If the defense is terrible this year it will because, with one notable exception, TT's first round draft picks on defense don't develop they way they are expected to. Player development might be part of the problem but the most obvious common denominator are the injuries that have plagued this team.

If you ignore the last 3 years (we're just starting to really evaluate Perry now) that's 4:3, not a bad record, really.

[hoosier]

If you ignore the last 3 years (we're just starting to really evaluate Perry now) that's 4:3, not a bad record, really.

What's the four and what's the three? Four who developed or four who weren't constantly injured? Cuz while Raji and Hawk have been healthy it's doubtful whether either one has lived up to the spot where he was picked. I don't say this as a critique of TT. I think the draft is a true crapshoot, and just as he's been extraordinarily fortunate in finding gems with his second and third round picks (especially the receivers) he's been equally unlucky with first round picks (except ARod and CMIII).

[pbmax]

Peri was a bad pick from day one. Came in with the wrong attitude about his weight and position. Although he said some better things at the beginning of last year it seems like he still has a poor attitude behind the scenes. He might not make it out of TC this year, if he even gets cleared for it. Just a bust.

Also what is with this 'undisclosed injury' thing. I know they don't like saying anything useful these days, but we learn about things like the cyst that Harris had removed last year, the weird intestinal thing some other guy had a couple of years ago, etc. The coaches seem pissed about this one, like Peri injured himself in a stupid way just before OTA's, or that he had some sort of lingering injury and ignored advise for surgery until just before OTA's so he couldn't get the work in.

He said in his rookie year that he was going to keep the weight he put on for the Combine because the Packers wanted him between 260 and 270. If true, he was abiding by instructions. Having one OLB in a 3-4 at 270 is not unheard of.

His "attitude" about the position was one pre-draft comment about preferring to keep his hand in the dirt because that is what he was used to doing. But as long as he was chasing after the QB, he didn't care. Its amazing the power this one quote had taken on given his struggles. Its a good thing he didn't admit to being a Bear fan because everyone on this board would be accusing him of sabotage in that case.

He could be malingering behind the scenes, but other than new and public complaints that he is missing the offseason, we have no evidence. Notice that no one has asked McCarthy or Moss whether or not Perry is cleared to practice. The reason they haven't asked is the offseason; McCarthy and Moss don't need to answer. We found out about other players because they or they agents talked.

He could have delayed surgery against team advice, hoping it would heal itself. But the odds are long that he is still recovering from something related to his foot unless he damaged something else training in after the season.

I think there is one piece of evidence that they do not trust Perry in the defense: he clearly played better on the right, but he didn't get a full time gig there even after Matthews was hurt. Whether its assignments, health or attitude, they haven't devoted him to his favorite side. Which means they still have doubts. Whether its more than health and rep related, we might have to wait to know.

[bobblehead]

Perry has been misused from the day he was drafted - I'm sure the guy is completely demoralized and wants out.

Still, mailing it in and refusing to give effort isn't any way to make friends or money - Perry will be gone as soon as his contract is up, and will be looking to land on a team as a 4-3 DE, which is where he belongs.

So Perry will be gone, Worthy will be gone, Raji will be gone... TT and Capers need to get on the same page, or this nonsense will just continue as long as Spraypaintedhair is DC.

Wist, the PRIVILEGE of playing in the NFL doesn't mean you get to be used in only the way you see fit. He was drafted, given millions, now its on him to perform. He has the skillset to play OLB. He is not as misused as you make it out to be. Brad Chillar being asked to play safety is being misused (though he would have been an upgrade last year).

This is on Perry. When a 22 year old kid thinks that the professionals who have done this for generations aren't using you the right way so you pout (and the comments make it kinda obvious they are pissed at his attitude), you might want to look in the mirror.

[bobblehead]

What's the four and what's the three? Four who developed or four who weren't constantly injured? Cuz while Raji and Hawk have been healthy it's doubtful whether either one has lived up to the spot where he was picked. I don't say this as a critique of TT. I think the draft is a true crapshoot, and just as he's been extraordinarily fortunate in finding gems with his second and third round picks (especially the receivers) he's been equally unlucky with first round picks (except ARod and CMIII).

Do you really believe in luck? As in...its lucky that Lois Lerner's hard drive crashed and ruined information stored on servers externally?

[hoosier]

Do you really believe in luck? As in...its lucky that Lois Lerner's hard drive crashed and ruined information stored on servers externally?

I live in Indiana, in Luck I trust.

[Guiness]

What's the four and what's the three? Four who developed or four who weren't constantly injured? Cuz while Raji and Hawk have been healthy it's doubtful whether either one has lived up to the spot where he was picked. I don't say this as a critique of TT. I think the draft is a true crapshoot, and just as he's been extraordinarily fortunate in finding gems with his second and third round picks (especially the receivers) he's been equally unlucky with first round picks (except ARod and CMIII).

Like Hawk or not, he's going into his 9th season with the Pack, generally as a starter. Sure, it turns out there were better players available, 17 players from the first round that year (including Hawk) ended up making at least one trip to the Pro Bowl. Generally speaking though, getting a 10 year starter at any spot in the draft, you'll take it.

[Just Jeff]

Brad Chillar being asked to play safety is being misused (though he would have been an upgrade last year).

Very funny

[wist43]

Wist, the PRIVILEGE of playing in the NFL doesn't mean you get to be used in only the way you see fit. He was drafted, given millions, now its on him to perform. He has the skillset to play OLB. He is not as misused as you make it out to be. Brad Chillar being asked to play safety is being misused (though he would have been an upgrade last year).

This is on Perry. When a 22 year old kid thinks that the professionals who have done this for generations aren't using you the right way so you pout (and the comments make it kinda obvious they are pissed at his attitude), you might want to look in the mirror.

He doesn't have the skill set to play OLB - he has very stiff hips; uninstinctive, slow to react in space, can't cover, etc, etc...

No, he's not suited to play OLB.

Neal is much, much better in space; much more athletic; more flexible hips; can sink, turn, and run... leave Neal at OLB, and use Perry on the line in pass rush situations. It takes advantage of the skills both players bring to the table.

Dunderdummy doesn't think that way though... he's a square peg in a round hold guy. His protestations notwithstanding.

[Zool]

He doesn't have the skill set to play OLB - he has very stiff hips; uninstinctive, slow to react in space, can't cover, etc, etc...

No, he's not suited to play OLB.

Neal is much, much better in space; much more athletic; more flexible hips; can sink, turn, and run... leave Neal at OLB, and use Perry on the line in pass rush situations. It takes advantage of the skills both players bring to the table.

Dunderdummy doesn't think that way though... he's a square peg in a round hold guy. His protestations notwithstanding.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarrJa23.htm

This guy played OLB and couldn't cover for shit. Still had a pretty good career because he worked his ass off. Perry needs to start working.

[pbmax]

You have got to be kidding. Neal is space looks like Kampman in space. Or an Octopus out of the water.

How many times did Perry get asked to drop in coverage versus play the line? Was it above 15%?

In the 2-4, its even less in passing situations. This debate is just goofy. Does anyone think Peppers will be Matthews or Jones in space? Its two different jobs.

The only questions at this point is his health. Is he holding himself out while cleared for practice, or are the Packers trying to light a fire under his butt?

[KYPack]

I don't think it is a given at all that he will fit in as a 4-3 DE either. Perry might turn out to be one of those guys who was a decent college player, but doesn't really fit anywhere in the pro game.

He is a fool if he doesn't commit himself heart, soul and body to the "hybrid" DL/LB that the Packers have been talking about for the up coming season. It could be what is best for him, a little of each but a lot of neither.

The NFL has reached a weird kind of parity. There are 16 teams playing a 4-3 and 16 playing a 3-4 (if you count NE a 3-4 team & I do) Some teams are hybrids and I think we are headed to hybrid land. This means that Perry isn't the only guy that's on a team that it's style doesn't quite match scheme.
Perry isn't a 3-4 SOLB. He also isn't a 7 tech, hand in the dirt 4-3 DE. He's more of a sub package, spot guy. They need to put him in spots where he can use his bull and edge rush, that's what he's good at. Coverage or 3 down play just ain't his thing.

[KYPack]

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarrJa23.htm

This guy played OLB and couldn't cover for shit. Still had a pretty good career because he worked his ass off. Perry needs to start working.

He covered what he had to in the SB vs the Cards. 100 yd pick 6 is some coverage. Good call, Zool. Harrison and Perry are pretty similar players. They both play the same spot on similar D's. Winston Moss should take Perry, chain him to a chair and make him watch all the tape on James Harrison. James made himself into a star OLB with less skills than Perry. Perry should be able to do the same thing.

But I severely doubt he will.

[Patler]

He covered what he had to in the SB vs the Cards. 100 yd pick 6 is some coverage. Good call, Zool. Harrison and Perry are pretty similar players. They both play the same spot on similar D's. Winston Moss should take Perry, chain him to a chair and make him watch all the tape on James Harrison. James made himself into a star OLB with less skills than Perry. Perry should be able to do the same thing.

But I severely doubt he will.

It should also be noted that Harrison was around for 4-5 years before he figured it out and Pittsburgh understood how to best use him.

[pbmax]

It should also be noted that Harrison was around for 4-5 years before he figured it out and Pittsburgh understood how to best use him.

He was also cut twice in camp I believe.

[wist43]

Perry and James Harrison are similar players??

You guys are on drugs - or maybe you need to be on drugs if that's what you're coming up with minus a buzz ;)

[3irty1]

Better comparison than Harrison is Shawne Merriman for Perry.

Fact is that Perry was only drafted for one thing and one thing only: rush the passer. You'd gladly put up with any hole in a OLB's game as long as they can get to the QB. If Perry could cover and play in space he'd still be a disappointment. A 4-3 wouldn't change what matters enough to save his career.

[Zool]

James Harrison played the same position in the same D and was bad in coverage. That's how they are similar. Perry is not out of position or used incorrectly IMO.

Perry is quite a ways ahead in athletic ability. Merriman would be a good comparison too if Perry hadn't been so pedestrian this far in his career. Time to stop being hurt and start playing.

[Guiness]

Not sure about play style/position, etc, but career path-wise, you can't compare Perry to Merriman. Merriman started out like a house on fire, winning DRoY and going to the Pro-Bowl his first season.

[bobblehead]

He doesn't have the skill set to play OLB - he has very stiff hips; uninstinctive, slow to react in space, can't cover, etc, etc...

No, he's not suited to play OLB.

Neal is much, much better in space; much more athletic; more flexible hips; can sink, turn, and run... leave Neal at OLB, and use Perry on the line in pass rush situations. It takes advantage of the skills both players bring to the table.

Dunderdummy doesn't think that way though... he's a square peg in a round hold guy. His protestations notwithstanding.

Sounds a lot like James Harrison.

[bobblehead]

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarrJa23.htm

This guy played OLB and couldn't cover for shit. Still had a pretty good career because he worked his ass off. Perry needs to start working.

DAMMIT!!! I really gotta start reading a few posts ahead before responding.

[bobblehead]

James Harrison played the same position in the same D and was bad in coverage. That's how they are similar. Perry is not out of position or used incorrectly IMO.

Perry is quite a ways ahead in athletic ability. Merriman would be a good comparison too if Perry hadn't been so pedestrian this far in his career. Time to stop being hurt and start playing.

He also has very stiff hips and can't sink and spin in coverage. The skill set is eerily comparable.

[Fritz]

Probably whoever said Perry could be a very good situational rusher is about right.

Now Perry needs to work at doing that. He needs to work hard and keep his nose brown.

[pbmax]

Perry is quite a ways ahead in athletic ability. Merriman would be a good comparison too if Perry hadn't been so pedestrian this far in his career. Time to stop being hurt and start ...

using PEDS. FIFY.

[wist43]

The girl in middle - does not have stiff hips. Doubt Nick Perry can move like that ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txtFtjOm6OI

[3irty1]

If you're comparing Perry to Harrison because of how much they sucked to begin their career you're saying Perry's expectations should be that of an undrafted free agent instead of a first round draft pick.

I said Merriman because he was an elite athlete in the same mold drafted to play the same position with the same weaknesses. Nobody cared if he could cover or not. My point was that saying Perry is misused implies there is a good way to use him which I don't think is true. A pass rusher whose ineffective rushing the passer isn't misused, he sucks.

[Zool]

Again, same position in a very similar D scheme is the reason for the comparison.

[bobblehead]

The girl in middle - does not have stiff hips. Doubt Nick Perry can move like that ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txtFtjOm6OI

This is just creepy wist. Can't you just surf asian porn like a normal pervert?

[wist43]

This is just creepy wist. Can't you just surf asian porn like a normal pervert?

Don't need porn with a wife like mine ;)

She's pretty close to the perfect wife... when she's pissed and starts bitching (which isn't often), she reverts to her native tongue and I can't understand a word she says - usually gets me laughing if she's really pissed, lol... :)

[wist43]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIrHz_kcgTs

I would have posted some highlights of Perry - but there aren't any ;)

You guys are completely nuts - the 2 players aren't in any way similar.

[Rutnstrut]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIrHz_kcgTs

I would have posted some highlights of Perry - but there aren't any ;)

You guys are completely nuts - the 2 players aren't in any way similar.

Sure they are, they are both of a similar skin pigment.

[Willard]

The girl in middle - does not have stiff hips. Doubt Nick Perry can move like that ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txtFtjOm6OIThat is a 3-4 I could get behind!

[pbmax]

Defensive pressure by the Numbers (part of this applies to Packers): http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/85489990/nfl-training-camp-stats-no-huddle-shotgun-quarterback-runs#!bjbnjH



8. Defenses rush exactly four defenders on 62.9 percent of all pass plays.

A quick survey of depth charts reveals that exactly half of all defenses are listed as 3-4's right now. Also, a quick survey of coordinators reveals that about 95 percent of them insist "we are going to be multiple and hard to categorize," and 100 percent of them are going to be both "attacking" and "aggressive." At any rate, whether a team is officially a 3-4 or 4-3, whether they use tons of 2-3-6 personnel groups and blitz safeties on 1st-and-10 or come from the Tony Dungy school of Cover-2 fundamentalism, teams are going to rush four defenders on about two-thirds of pass plays.

Innovative, wacky, ultra-aggressive coaches rush defenders four at a time, just as they pull up their pants one leg at a time. The Cardinals, Chiefs, Packers, Saints and 49ers defenses were coached by a rogue's gallery of wild men and mad scientists last year. They combined to rush four defenders on 59.2 percent of pass plays, an insignificant smidge below the NFL average. Game situation and personnel quality are greater variables in determining how many defenders rush the quarterback than coaching philosophy. A coach who does not trust his cornerbacks is not going to blitz safeties, no matter what. A conservative coach whose defense forces lots of 3rd-and-long situations will blitz more than a barbarian whose defense cannot force obvious passing downs.

Five-man rushes occur on 22.8 percent of passes; six-man rushes (a pretty big blitz) occur on 7.2 percent of pass plays. Three-man rushes occur 5.8 percent of the time, despite all of those 3-4 defenses, which of course usually feature one or two linebackers who specialize in pass rushing. Rushes of seven or more defenders are typically reserved for red zone situations.

There's a fundamental mathematics at work with the four-man rush. A minimum of five defenders are needed to match up with five eligible receivers, a sixth defender is usually needed for double coverage, deep safety, quarterback spying or what have you, and diminishing returns kick in if three or fewer pass rushers make it easy for the quarterback to check his voicemail in the pocket. The aggressive defensive innovators of the 2010s express their individuality by sending four unexpected defenders. Bob Sutton of the Chiefs might send a nose tackle, a cornerback, a safety and Jamaal Charles (he does every other darn thing in Kansas City, so why not?), but he is more-or-less as likely to send four rushers as Lovie Smith is to send two tackles and two ends.

[wist43]

Defensive pressure by the Numbers (part of this applies to Packers): http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/85489990/nfl-training-camp-stats-no-huddle-shotgun-quarterback-runs#!bjbnjH

Of course 4 is most common number of rushers - always has been, always will. The questions become how do you create mismatches, confusion in the blocking scheme and coverage - and, also account for the run, as teams are now lining up with 3 WR's in run/pass sitautions.

Capers accounted for the run by plopping 650 lbs of Pickett and Raji in the middle of the line. Problem with that was Pickett offered zero pass rush, and Raji wore down in the role and offered no pass rush either.

The result was that if it was a pass, we effectively only had 2 pass rushers getting after the QB; and, if it was a run and the RB had a seam thru the line, our ILB's being below average, the second level of our defense usually wasn't there to clean up; hence, we routinely got gashed in the running game.

So it was the worst of both worlds the way Capers ran his nickel.

I read an article a while back which detailed the amount of nickel that teams are running now. The Saints ran the most nickel of any team in the league at 85% - but they ran exactly 0% 2-4. Granted, they are a base 4-3 team, but the 3-3 they ran was much better suited to dealing with run/pass than Capers 2-4.

The only other teams that ran the 2-4 more than 30% of the time were Washington and San Francisco, but I would argue both of those teams have vastly superior LB's, and could make the alignment work much better than Capers could with the personnel he has.

Given that Pickett and Jolly are not back, and looking at the stable of DL on the roster now, I'd imagine Capers will necessarily have to go to more of a 4-2/3-3 look, similar to how SF looks with Peppers and Aldon Smith being similar in stature and ability.

[pbmax]

1. Raji and Pickett played some nickel, but only when the percentages (or clock perhaps) said the opposition was going to run.

2. One of the problems we have in this debate is that we think 2-4 and 3-3 are entirely different schemes. But they are not. They are counts of positions. If Perry was on the Saints he would be part of the front line 3-3. A pass rushing end. One of whom is almost always on the field and a second of which could be inserted when they take two DL off the field and put in a DB and a pass rusher. The fact that he has not been productive enough is why Peppers is here.

3. Which leads to the obvious question: how often was the Saints 3-3 nickel geared toward beef rather than pass rush? Ideally, you do not need to substitute. Which is one reason why Pickett is no longer on the team, they hope Raji does that again.

[wist43]

1. Raji and Pickett played some nickel, but only when the percentages (or clock perhaps) said the opposition was going to run.

2. One of the problems we have in this debate is that we think 2-4 and 3-3 are entirely different schemes. But they are not. They are counts of positions. If Perry was on the Saints he would be part of the front line 3-3. A pass rushing end. One of whom is almost always on the field and a second of which could be inserted when they take two DL off the field and put in a DB and a pass rusher. The fact that he has not been productive enough is why Peppers is here.

3. Which leads to the obvious question: how often was the Saints 3-3 nickel geared toward beef rather than pass rush? Ideally, you do not need to substitute. Which is one reason why Pickett is no longer on the team, they hope Raji does that again.

The Saints actually played much more 4-2, as the strength of their defense is on the DL - which is where our is as well; so it only makes sense to have those players on the field.

Perry or Neal aren't the issue here - the issue is Pickett, Raji, Hawk, and Brad Jones. 2 of those guys should not be on the field in the nickel. Pickett for sure, and one of either Hawk or Brad Jones, depending on whether the team we're playing is expected more likely to run or pass. Pass? play Jones over Hawk; Run? play Hawk over Jones.

As for Raji, at this point, I'd play him predominantly in the base 3-4, and leave the nickel interior line to Daniels, Peppers, D. Jones, Guion, Worthy, and now Thorton; with Perry used as a situational pass rusher from the DE position in a 4-2. Maybe a 4-2 of Peppers, Daniels, D. Jones, and Perry on the line. Use Boyd and Raji in the base - which we only run about 20% of the time anyway.

The goal should be to make as much use of the DL talent as possible, and minimize the use of Brad Jones and Hawk. Bradford will surely be in the mix on the outside as well.

[Pugger]

Packers Win the SB over Manning to Avenge the loss when they CHEATED!!!!

Hyde should be extended now for 5 years since he will be the best Safety in the NFC next year

Raji Dominates and is gone in the offseason to make it rain

CMIII is hurt again but only for 1 quarter

Peppers gets 15 sacks

Not sure if serious...

[pbmax]

I agree Hawk and Jones present a problem, but who covers without them? You send Matthews into coverage (and I do think they should move him inside occasionally to mix things up) and you weaken your pass rush immediately. If only one LB on the field in nickel can cover the deep middle or crossing routes, you have to play 6 man pass defense unless you drop an OLB. That means you HAVE to get pressure and that has not happened enough even with a five man rush.

I still have some hope for Jones in his run defense, but they do need an upgrade. Some are banking on Lattimore or Barrington, but I don't see it yet.

Perry or Neal sized players in a 4-3 are playing end. Heck, on the Seahawks Matthews would be an elephant end with his hand in the ground sometimes.

I also agree Pickett is basically an advertisement for what you are willing to surrender, but you have to defend against the worst outcome and Capers always schemes to stop the run first. He has way too many players who have limits going both ways.

That is why I think McCarthy is demanding less scheme, one more tailored to the players. This will help out with youth and injuries. But it doesn't solve each position.

[pbmax]

This year's defense, APRH, will be a test of a couple of ways of planning your D.

Do what you do well and have everyone on the same page to limit mistakes. Helps with rookies, young-ins and injuries. Might open you up to being abused by a sophisticated offense (Saints, Patriots, Broncos) if you don't win the individual battle. While its not the Johnson/Wannestadt/Bates defense in scheme, it is the philosophy.

Scheme to stop the biggest threat to your team's success. Know where your weaknesses are and be prepared to cover them or hide them. Its complicated, better run by vets but will not give good offenses easy choices. If the other team has a weakness, scheme to attack it, you won't have to hold the backend forever if you are successful.

[3irty1]

You scheme against the biggest threats but that changes each week. I'd argue the better philosophy is to achieve balance in your own personnel. If you've got an embarrassment of riches in run defenders you can sell out against the pass, knowing you'll be able to be somewhat effective against the run if it comes. This was us in 2010 after a 2009 of dominating against the run. The problem with those teams is that while you can sell out against the run effectively, you can sell out against the pass to achieve balance, but you've run out of trade offs to make when you absolutely must stop the pass. This is the story of 2011, the offense was good enough to force other teams to pass and even when we knew it was coming we couldn't do shit to stop it.

Judging by the personnel changes this year it looks like a roster that no longer needs to sell out against anything just to achieve balance. If anything, we may end up putting strong pass rushers in a 3-4 or even 2-5 Eagle type D to keep the run at bay depending on how Raji and the new beef perform without Pickett or Jolly.

[pbmax]

Judging by the personnel changes this year it looks like a roster that no longer needs to sell out against anything just to achieve balance. If anything, we may end up putting strong pass rushers in a 3-4 or even 2-5 Eagle type D to keep the run at bay depending on how Raji and the new beef perform without Pickett or Jolly.

I think there is something to this, and might be the most telling thing about the offseason, not Peppers or less scheme/volume/whatever.

More versatile lineman on the field more. This could mean more base but no one has publicly contemplated that. But it could mean less beefy nickel except in obvious run situations.

[denverYooper]

Mmmm, beefy nickel.

[wist43]

I think there is something to this, and might be the most telling thing about the offseason, not Peppers or less scheme/volume/whatever.

More versatile lineman on the field more. This could mean more base but no one has publicly contemplated that. But it could mean less beefy nickel except in obvious run situations.

It's a "less beefy" nickel if all you do is substitute say Boyd and Guion for Pickett and Raji, and leave the same pedestrian ILB's on the field. What they should be doing, is shitcan the "Jumbo 2-4 nickel" and replace Pickett, Raji, and one of the ILB's with Daniels, D. Jones, and now Thorton. Your OLB's would be Matthews and Peppers, and pick your poison at ILB.

That would not be a "less beefy" nickel b/c Daniels, D. Jones, and Thorton offer size and agility in place of size (Pickett and Raji) and pedestrian (Hawk or Jones).

I'd rather have 3 DL on the field in those situaitons to deal with run/pass - and if you think it is more likely pass there is no rule against lurking your SS near the line. It would allow the defense to show more looks, instead of that mind-numbing static 2-4 down and down.

That's been my bitch about how Capers has run the 2-4 all along.

[Bretsky]

I have never bought into the it's all Dom's fault theory; I've felt the blame is at least 60% TT's for bringing in bad fits and outlining some positions with youth and inexperience when they need some vets back there to lead. He's also completed let down the coaches at the safety postion.

This is a year I see some talent back there.

If the D does not step up this year I will lean toward Wistology in terms of our defense

[Patler]

Yet coaches everywhere will tell you that a good player can be used in any philosophy.

In 10 years TT has drafted 7 safeties, in rounds 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4 and 6. He has essentially had 40 picks in rounds 1-4 (give or take) and used 6 of the 40 on safeties. Six for two starters, leaving 34 for the other 20 starters. That doesn't include Hyde, who could be a 5th round safety.

He went the route of the "experienced veteran" safeties in the early years, some with a lot of playing experience. They didn't work out so well either.

I think an awful lot of teams need better safeties than they have. Sometimes you get lucky and draft Nick Collins. Other times you are not so lucky, and just a round later you get Aaron Rouse.

There will always be holes to fill, and sometimes it takes a few years to fill them. But, if you push the issue to get a safety, maybe you don't have a David Bakhtiari to step in when Bulaga goes down, or a Micah Hyde to step in for Hayward.

But for the injury to Nick Collins, safety would probably bear only a casual reference now and then.

[Bretsky]

that's what every coach will say, isn't it ? It's pretty common knowledge scouts all over noted Perry was a 4-3 guy. It's not DOM's fault he has stiff hips and is limited in the range of talents one wants in a 3-4 OLB.

In the end, with safety, the Collins injury has completed tramatized this organization and if he were still around Collins and Burnettt would be a pretty dam good duo. But he's not.

So who gets held accountable that we have had junk there since he left ? Either TT has drafted the wrong guys, our secondary coaches suck, or we might need to add an assignment sure guy or two back there in terms of a quality veteran.

I know TT singed a couple free agent safeties; one might argue he was bottom feeding there with guys with minimal talent. I struggle to remember anybody good. Manual rotted. Was there a Roman's too ? I think I remember two cheap guys who played real cheap as well.

We sure do a hell of a lot better job restocking on offense than we do on defense.

[pbmax]

We sure do a hell of a lot better job restocking on offense than we do on defense.

That gets at the problem and is what McCarthy has been yapping about all offseason. It doesn't make a lot of sense that Ted can't find football players in the draft for defense but excels on offense.

The problem is scheme and fit. Capers isn't the best match of a D coach for the Packers player acquisition philosophy. He may not be as stubborn as Dick LeBeau, but he plays a scheme that works well for vets, less well for youngsters.

Its McCarthy (with Ted approval) who have hired a D coordinator that may not be the best match for the team. The 2014 question is will the changes McCarthy demanded work to alleviate the problem.

[Patler]

that's what every coach will say, isn't it ? It's pretty common knowledge scouts all over noted Perry was a 4-3 guy. It's not DOM's fault he has stiff hips and is limited in the range of talents one wants in a 3-4 OLB.

In the end, with safety, the Collins injury has completed tramatized this organization and if he were still around Collins and Burnettt would be a pretty dam good duo. But he's not.

So who gets held accountable that we have had junk there since he left ? Either TT has drafted the wrong guys, our secondary coaches suck, or we might need to add an assignment sure guy or two back there in terms of a quality veteran.

I know TT singed a couple free agent safeties; one might argue he was bottom feeding there with guys with minimal talent. I struggle to remember anybody good. Manual rotted. Was there a Roman's too ? I think I remember two cheap guys who played real cheap as well.

We sure do a hell of a lot better job restocking on offense than we do on defense.

It is neither TT's nor Capers fault that Perry can't stay healthy enough to practice, let alone play games.
When he actually is available, how Perry is used is on Capers, not TT.

As I wrote a week or so ago, I'm not sure Perry is anymore suited to a classic 4-3 DE than he is to a classic 3-4 OLB. But, the guy does have some football ability. The notion that a guy can't be effective just because he doesn't fit the classic description for the position is ridiculous, in my opinion. Two things prevent him from contributing (three if you include injuries). First and foremost it is the players attitude, his effort and willingness to accept his role and give it everything he has. Second, it's on the coaches to be creative in their use of the player, taking advantage of what he does well and minimizing reliance on what he does poorly.

[KYPack]

It is neither TT's nor Capers fault that Perry can't stay healthy enough to practice, let alone play games.
When he actually is available, how Perry is used is on Capers, not TT.

As I wrote a week or so ago, I'm not sure Perry is anymore suited to a classic 4-3 DE than he is to a classic 3-4 OLB. But, the guy does have some football ability. The notion that a guy can't be effective just because he doesn't fit the classic description for the position is ridiculous, in my opinion. Two things prevent him from contributing (three if you include injuries). First and foremost it is the players attitude, his effort and willingness to accept his role and give it everything he has. Second, it's on the coaches to be creative in their use of the player, taking advantage of what he does well and minimizing reliance on what he does poorly.

Everybody says he's be a great 4-3 DE. I doubt it. His stiff hips would get abused by OT's at DE. He also isn't violent enough with his hands to be a 4-3 DE. Sometimes you have to ignore where a guy was drafted and put him where he can do the job. Perry is a good guy to have bc we have Peppers. Julius isn't an every snap DE or OLB anymore, but with Perry getting some of the snaps, Pep can be used more effectively. Perry is a spot guy and ST type player that can be used perfectly in conjunction with our personnel.

His attitude? Yeah, it probably needs adjusting and if he doesn't do that, he won't be resigned. I think we can get a productive season out of him, which is more than I can say from other guys trying to make this roster.

[3irty1]

that's what every coach will say, isn't it ? It's pretty common knowledge scouts all over noted Perry was a 4-3 guy. It's not DOM's fault he has stiff hips and is limited in the range of talents one wants in a 3-4 OLB.

In the end, with safety, the Collins injury has completed tramatized this organization and if he were still around Collins and Burnettt would be a pretty dam good duo. But he's not.

So who gets held accountable that we have had junk there since he left ? Either TT has drafted the wrong guys, our secondary coaches suck, or we might need to add an assignment sure guy or two back there in terms of a quality veteran.

I know TT singed a couple free agent safeties; one might argue he was bottom feeding there with guys with minimal talent. I struggle to remember anybody good. Manual rotted. Was there a Roman's too ? I think I remember two cheap guys who played real cheap as well.

We sure do a hell of a lot better job restocking on offense than we do on defense.

60% is a big number. I'm one that's quick to forgive the GM because I think its a logical fallacy to assume there is always combination of possible moves and decisions that will yield a superbowl every year. The players themselves don't always play up to their potential but I'm quick to forgive them too because unless you think they aren't taking their preparation seriously or get lazy with their body. Would Micah Hyde have caught the ball with an extra hour of jugs machine drills? My feeling is no. Coaches on the other hand are responsible for both the long term philosophies and short term strategies so my thinking would be that if the right combination of decisions lies within just one guy, its got to be them simply by the huge volume of possible decisions they have. Also those decisions are less data-driven than those of a GM so the human element is more pronounced. Just my two cents.

I also don't know that we do such a better job restocking on offense. We're perpetually solid at QB and WR but the line, running backs, and TE positions have all been a roller coaster. Rodgers is a one man offense and McCarthy has shown to be a very competent game planner and play caller. Those two just mask a lot of weaknesses IMO.

On defense we've had an embarrassment of riches at the cornerback position compared to other teams. For the most part we've managed to keep a premiere pass rusher on retainer as well. Capers deserves the criticisms he gets IMO. He does have shitty luck though.

[Joemailman]

that's what every coach will say, isn't it ? It's pretty common knowledge scouts all over noted Perry was a 4-3 guy. It's not DOM's fault he has stiff hips and is limited in the range of talents one wants in a 3-4 OLB.

In the end, with safety, the Collins injury has completed tramatized this organization and if he were still around Collins and Burnettt would be a pretty dam good duo. But he's not.

So who gets held accountable that we have had junk there since he left ? Either TT has drafted the wrong guys, our secondary coaches suck, or we might need to add an assignment sure guy or two back there in terms of a quality veteran.

I know TT singed a couple free agent safeties; one might argue he was bottom feeding there with guys with minimal talent. I struggle to remember anybody good. Manual rotted. Was there a Roman's too ? I think I remember two cheap guys who played real cheap as well.

We sure do a hell of a lot better job restocking on offense than we do on defense.

I think Darren Perry is a guy who now needs to produce. He hasn't developed anybody at that position. The only outstanding performer he's had was Nick Collins, and Collins was a Pro Bowler before Perry was hired. Burnett is a pretty talented guy who regressed at a time when he should be entering the prime of his career. Perry now has arguably the best Safety from the 2014 draft, and a good, instinctive player in Hyde to go along with Burnett. If that group can't at least elevate their play into the solid category, I think coaching has to be an issue. If you're going to be a draft and develop team, then the coaches have to be able to develop young talent. Up until now, Perry hasn't done that.

[Zool]

Is Perry the coach of all the DBs or just the safeties? The Packers are starting 2 undrafted guys at CB so someone is doing something right there.

[Joemailman]

Is Perry the coach of all the DBs or just the safeties? The Packers are starting 2 undrafted guys at CB so someone is doing something right there.

On the Packers website, Perry is listed on the coaching roster as Secondary-Safeties. Joe Whitt is listed as Secondary-Cornerbacks.

Whitt was hired by McCarthy a year before bringing in Capers. Perry was hired a few weeks after the hiring of Capers in 2009, so he was probably a Capers recruit.

[Zool]

Well then Perry might just suck. There have been actual draft picks at S and no one is sticking very long.

[pbmax]

Well then Perry might just suck. There have been actual draft picks at S and no one is sticking very long.

Perry was hired by LeBeau in Pittsburgh (after being a very good safety for them) and was considered on a fast track to coordinator-ville and an eventual HC. But when Tomlin replaced Cowher, he dumped some existing coaches to put in his own people. LeBeau wouldn't comment, saying it was the HC's call.

It was an interesting maneuver, because Pittsburgh gives its defensive staff a huge amount of sway in personnel and roster moves. Tomlin was not allowed to pick his own D coordinator or scheme despite (I think) a background in defense.

Perry might have been out the door already and LeBeau was able to pass it off as an HC exercising his hiring discretion. But up to the dismissal, he was very well thought of. There were no rumors at the time that he was on the outs. New HC coaches like to have people they know on both sides of the ball, hence Winston Moss on D.

It looked like a coup at the time. But he hasn't been delivering.

[Fritz]

Big year for this defensive staff. If this season is a repeat of the last few, with a powerful offense and a lame-o defense, I think Capers will be driven into retirement and perhaps much of the defensive staff dismissed. I don't think McC will let them all go, however. I don't think he wants to completely start over on defense this far into his head coaching career with the Pack.

[Carolina_Packer]

Big year for this defensive staff. If this season is a repeat of the last few, with a powerful offense and a lame-o defense, I think Capers will be driven into retirement and perhaps much of the defensive staff dismissed. I don't think McC will let them all go, however. I don't think he wants to completely start over on defense this far into his head coaching career with the Pack.

Which is worse, the cure or the disease?

[Fritz]

If this defense is like the recent ones, the disease is worse. Cut it out.

[wist43]

The disease is 3-fold,

1) Injuries
2) Picking players that are a poor fit for what Capers wants to do
3) Capers not designing a scheme to fit the players he's been given

The cure is running more 3-3 and 4-2, and that is entirely in Capers hands. He certainly has the ability to get it done, but for some reason he refuses to adjust.

As I said when we hired him 6 years ago - I don't trust him. He is very, very stubborn about making adjustments, even when the results of doing what he's been doing are disasterous - which has now finally led to MM stepping in and getting involved with what Capers is doing (at least a year too late IMO).

He does not have the personnel to run the 2-4, yet game after game, down after down... he refuses to adjust. TT has given him talent stacked on the DL, and has himself refused to invest in LB's. If your scheme is predicated upon outstanding linebacker play, and the GM refuses to upgrade the talent at linebacker - you had best adjust as quickly as possible, or your defense is going to be in big trouble.

If we had SF's linebackers?? I wouldn't bitch as much about the 2-4, but we don't have their linebackers - we have 2 slugs slogging away in the middle. We need to run much more 3-3 and 4-2 to minimize our weakness at LB, and take full advantage of the talent we have on the DL.

This year I think we will finally see more of the cure than the disease. Peppers is a big upgrade, even if his snaps need to be rationed, and MM getting involved with the defense should help.

We'll see.

[Rutnstrut]

So is it lack of awareness on the part of the GM by not getting the right players, and the DC for not recognizing the players he has need to be used differently? Or is it that both are just to stubborn to flex with the situation? Either way it's on their heads imo.

[wist43]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/youth-gets-its-chance-on-packers-defensive-line-b99315437z1-268489612.html

After reading this article, makes me wonder if Trgovac is a big part of the problem??

I really didn't like the tone of this article... makes me think Capers and Trgovac just don't get it.

[pbmax]

Part of the problem is this:


Will the Packers employ more of an up-the-field, one-gap scheme than its more common two-gap look?

McGinn thinks gap assignment leads to either read or up the field. That is not true. You can run one gap and keep the D lineman from Jetting up the field.

Between this and half the football world thinking 2 gap means double teamed, its not surprising its hard to discern what the problem is by talking to those involved.

[pbmax]

He does not have the personnel to run the 2-4, yet game after game, down after down... he refuses to adjust. TT has given him talent stacked on the DL, and has himself refused to invest in LB's.

With Pickett and Jolly gone, the D lineman are: Raji (couldn't sniff an important deal in FA), Daniels, Jones, Boyd, Guion, Worthy. That's not exactly murderer's row.

With Pickett, Jolly and Wilson, you had major run stoppers but no pass rush. Its not just Brad Jones versus a superstar D lineman leaving the field for Casey Hayward. Its much more about mixing and matching. They need someone to step up and create a problem for the offense, then you have room to force teams to do things they do not wish to do. Daniels stepped up big, they need one more.

[wist43]

With Pickett and Jolly gone, the D lineman are: Raji (couldn't sniff an important deal in FA), Daniels, Jones, Boyd, Guion, Worthy. That's not exactly murderer's row.

With Pickett, Jolly and Wilson, you had major run stoppers but no pass rush. Its not just Brad Jones versus a superstar D lineman leaving the field for Casey Hayward. Its much more about mixing and matching. They need someone to step up and create a problem for the offense, then you have room to force teams to do things they do not wish to do. Daniels stepped up big, they need one more.

So now you're contending that the LB's are junk, and the DL is junk??

Daniels was about the only player in the front six that was used properly!!

They only played base 20% of the time, 2-4 65% of the time, the rest I guess was some form of dime or psycho.

They should have played more base, which would have been made up of Wilson, Pickett, and Jolly - saving Raji, D. Jones, Daniels, and Perry for pass rushing situations. As it was, Raji wore down, Perry was misused, and Jones, et al were nagged by injuries.

Wilson never played, Pickett was misused, Raji overused and misused, etc.

As I've been saying, I give the players a huge pass on accountability - if I were playing in that front, I'd be demoralized too. After reading that article and seeing Trgovac's comments, I have to put him right up there with Capers for accountability. It would seem Trgovac and Capers are in agreement that the scheme has never been the problem; in their view, the players are the problem.

After reading that article I've now reversed my prediction that they will turn things around on defense - I now think we'll see more of the same. Trgovac basically said, "... it's all the fault of the players".

If he can't see that those guy were misused, then he needs to be sent packing - yesterday.

[pbmax]

Raji hasn't had his pass rush for two plus years and it isn't present early in the season, so I think that calls into question that his pass rush was diminished simply by over usage. I agree that Raji was a poor fit for the Capers system in a 2 gapping role. But he didn't perform much better at 3 tech no matter the gap responsibility, except he did stay home to plug up the run better than past years. It may be he needs to be at nose like he was in 2010 to fit. But I am not sure that's it.

Pickett and Jolly were used to stuff the run in both base and 2-4. And it worked until Game 7 or 8 and then fell apart. It coincided with rotating injuries to Matthews, Neal and Perry.

A D line with Raji and Daniels was on the field quite a bit. The were with Perry a LOT until he injured his foot. Jones was middling at best for the entire season. They can't all play DE in a four man line. Matthews has to be one of them until another pass rusher emerges. The problem isn't size, its match ups. What I wonder is who will be the run down D lineman this year.

What you might like is that McCarthy at his PC today said they were looking at sending Matthews from different places in the scheme. So they may indeed run multiple fronts, unless they just allow him to roam like an inverted psycho.

[wist43]

Raji hasn't had his pass rush for two plus years and it isn't present early in the season, so I think that calls into question that his pass rush was diminished simply by over usage. I agree that Raji was a poor fit for the Capers system in a 2 gapping role. But he didn't perform much better at 3 tech no matter the gap responsibility, except he did stay home to plug up the run better than past years. It may be he needs to be at nose like he was in 2010 to fit. But I am not sure that's it.

Pickett and Jolly were used to stuff the run in both base and 2-4. And it worked until Game 7 or 8 and then fell apart. It coincided with rotating injuries to Matthews, Neal and Perry.

A D line with Raji and Daniels was on the field quite a bit. The were with Perry a LOT until he injured his foot. Jones was middling at best for the entire season. They can't all play DE in a four man line. Matthews has to be one of them until another pass rusher emerges. The problem isn't size, its match ups. What I wonder is who will be the run down D lineman this year.

What you might like is that McCarthy at his PC today said they were looking at sending Matthews from different places in the scheme. So they may indeed run multiple fronts, unless they just allow him to roam like an inverted psycho.

According to Capers, there are no run downs, lol...

I agree, it is about matchups and creating mismatches - it's the reason I want a 3-3 out there in the nickel. You can do more with moving people around, you have more size on the field (mobile size, not just fat guys), and you have your more talented, or at least higher drafted players on the field.

I damn sure like a 3-3 of Daniels, D. Jones, and Peppers on the line; and Matthews, Bradford/Mulumba, and Neal on the field than any combination of 2-4 that keeps Hawk and Brad Jones on the field.

You guys all get your panties in a twist over how is an OLB going to cover a RB or TE - well, how are Hawk or Brad Jones going to cover them any better, as both of those guys pretty much suck at everything. How does any other team in the league survive with better results than we've been realizing when they don't run the 2-4 at all??

I did find that article with Trgovac's comments to be disheartening - it says he and Capers simply don't get it; and it sounds like they're going to keep right on running what they've been running irregardless of MM's input.

I hope that isn't the case, but he sure sounded like they were going to keep running the same junk, and the problem all along has been the players - that's 180 degrees the wrong approach.

[KYPack]

So now you're contending that the LB's are junk, and the DL is junk??

Daniels was about the only player in the front six that was used properly!!

They only played base 20% of the time, 2-4 65% of the time, the rest I guess was some form of dime or psycho.

They should have played more base, which would have been made up of Wilson, Pickett, and Jolly - saving Raji, D. Jones, Daniels, and Perry for pass rushing situations. As it was, Raji wore down, Perry was misused, and Jones, et al were nagged by injuries.

Wilson never played, Pickett was misused, Raji overused and misused, etc.

As I've been saying, I give the players a huge pass on accountability - if I were playing in that front, I'd be demoralized too. After reading that article and seeing Trgovac's comments, I have to put him right up there with Capers for accountability. It would seem Trgovac and Capers are in agreement that the scheme has never been the problem; in their view, the players are the problem.

After reading that article I've now reversed my prediction that they will turn things around on defense - I now think we'll see more of the same. Trgovac basically said, "... it's all the fault of the players".

If he can't see that those guy were misused, then he needs to be sent packing - yesterday.

What is your beef with Trgo's comments?

Quote on

Will the Packers employ more of an up-the-field, one-gap scheme than its more common two-gap look?

"Maybe a little bit," said Trgovac. "But we still have that (two-gap) in our system. And we didn't two-gap as much as people think we two-gapped. We'll have to see what (Capers) gravitates to more."

Quote off.

I definitely agree that many posters on here don't understand 2 gap and one gap schemes. We mainly 2 gap at the zero technique. Our best 2 gap dudes were JJ and Pick. What I don't understand is why we didn't sign one of 'em. I know their results were lack lustre, but damn, they could shove guys around. Only Daniels has that talent in this bunch and he'll wear down at a much quicker rate bc he is a lone bone. I think they should give Ryan or JJ (if medically possible) a second look.

[Carolina_Packer]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/youth-gets-its-chance-on-packers-defensive-line-b99315437z1-268489612.html

After reading this article, makes me wonder if Trgovac is a big part of the problem??

I really didn't like the tone of this article... makes me think Capers and Trgovac just don't get it.

From the article Wist linked above: "Capers hasn't had a run defense rank better than 14th since a No. 1 finish in 2009. It's probably why Thompson and McCarthy were so ready to get rid of some people and try somebody else."

Get rid of some people and try somebody else? Do you think they meant players or DC and coaches? I would think players, because how would anyone find out from TT/brain trust what they were considering? They play it close to the vest.

[wist43]

What is your beef with Trgo's comments?

Quote on

Will the Packers employ more of an up-the-field, one-gap scheme than its more common two-gap look?

"Maybe a little bit," said Trgovac. "But we still have that (two-gap) in our system. And we didn't two-gap as much as people think we two-gapped. We'll have to see what (Capers) gravitates to more."

Quote off.

I definitely agree that many posters on here don't understand 2 gap and one gap schemes. We mainly 2 gap at the zero technique. Our best 2 gap dudes were JJ and Pick. What I don't understand is why we didn't sign one of 'em. I know their results were lack lustre, but damn, they could shove guys around. Only Daniels has that talent in this bunch and he'll wear down at a much quicker rate bc he is a lone bone. I think they should give Ryan or JJ (if medically possible) a second look.

My problems with his comments were exactly as I said - he put the blame for the dismal performances on the players, instead of owning up to the fact that they were asked to perform duties for which they were ill-suited.

I wouldn't expect him to say it as bluntly as that, but to say the fault lay with the players is a mischaracterization of what has been going on - the players have been misused, and I'm not the only one who's been griping about it.

If Capers and Trgovac are thinking of playing the same scheme, only with different players - they'll both be fired about 2.3 seconds after the season is over - which I would expect would be a 1st round playoff exit.

I have absolutely no faith in Capers, and now I think I might have even less faith in Trgovac... perhaps he is more the problem than Capers, and Capers is going in large measure off of Trgovac's input?? Either way, these two idiots have made a God-awful mess out of our defense the last few years, and I'm bloody well sick of it!!!

I wouldn't mind seeing both of them fired tomorrow - as disruptive as that might be, it might be better than having the two of them mucking things up for another season.

[Carolina_Packer]

Wist, as frustrating as it might be to your wish for change on the defensive staff, I hope lessons have been learned and that schemes are truly adjusted to fit personnel, and that the defense holds up their end of the bargain. I'm sure as a fan, you'd take it as well, and if they truly have made adjustments to fit personnel and it works, they wouldn't possibly "go back". That improvement, should it come to pass, would put you in kind of a weird place as a fan who doesn't trust the leadership of the defense.

One thing we can all agree on is the fact that they need some better luck with injuries, which has been a factor; to what degree can be debated, but a factor for sure.

As a fan, you hate to continue to see the achilles heel of the team be the defense because with A-Rod, you know you are seeing a special player running the offense, and you know there are only so many opportunities. Will the D be better? If they can stay healthy, I think they can be better. They are not off to a great start with Perry, Neal and Worthy starting on PUP for the D. Hopefully none of them on the same list by the start of the season.

[pbmax]

You guys all get your panties in a twist over how is an OLB going to cover a RB or TE - well, how are Hawk or Brad Jones going to cover them any better, as both of those guys pretty much suck at everything. How does any other team in the league survive with better results than we've been realizing when they don't run the 2-4 at all??

First, saying more size (I did not quote this part) and then distinguishing between mobile size and fat guy size is just confusing when discussion a prescription. Either recommend get more mobile at a position or get bigger. Then we can discuss who can do what. Add stronger to this as well.

And that takes me to the comment above. In a 3-4 or 3-3 or even a 4-2, linebackers will be tackling runners. We have seen how, even for an exceptional athlete such as Brad Jones, learning how to do this on the inside is a chore and takes time. With no guarantee of success. You can't just stick Bradford, Neal or Mulumba back there and expect good results. That is a mismatch of training and technique. Possibly even body size.

Being more mobile in the D line in a 3-3 doesn't get you anywhere if you can't make the plays from the position your physical attributes have put you in.

Now that takes us to the Capers versus Thompson problem. Thompson is not going to draft like the Steelers and take the exact position fit in the draft, all the time sacrificing value for fit and trying to squeeze in an offensive player or two somewhere in the second round. Wolf didn't do it, T2 doesn't, none of the Wolf tree does it. But their teams have played good D.

Capers has a D that, despite his label as a Mad Scientist, is pretty simple in alignment. Its not kindergarten, if you can only play man coverage you will have some trouble, but he is not throwing a thousand fronts at you or stunting you to the Stone Age. He can do this with a player like Woodson or Matthews, but its not the skeleton and bones of the design.

To avoid getting plastered by an advanced offense, he makes small, game by game adjustments, disguising coverage, pattern matching and matching up CBs to take away offensive strengths. When the D is a vet unit, especially in the backend, it plays very well (see 2009-10). But youth and injuries have ruined those plans in three straight years *. This leads straight to M3's critique and Dom mentioning that they have suffered for being vanilla in the past.

Which is why McCarthy has asked for fewer smaller adjustments from 3 main alignments and more personnel groups. You start the season assuming the depth will play and they have to be able to play something they do well, not just be below average at because they don't have the experience in making the tiny adjustments.

Frankly, McCarthy getting involved has me scared because these kinds of things don't have a history of working out well (at least the public ones, but perhaps they are public because it went wrong). And I have no idea if multiple personnel groups will solve this riddle. The hardest thing for an O to adjust to is a D that plays lots of stuff with the same 11 guys, giving them only one advanced read before the play is over (pre-snap alignment).

Ironically, I think, and its just a guess, that the multiple personnel groups will get you closer to what you are asking. Less square pegs in round holes. They won't try to win with minute adjustments to scheme, but by winning individual battles.


* Plus the lockout and the new CBA that followed

[wist43]

First, saying more size (I did not quote this part) and then distinguishing between mobile size and fat guy size is just confusing when discussion a prescription. Either recommend get more mobile at a position or get bigger. Then we can discuss who can do what. Add stronger to this as well.

And that takes me to the comment above. In a 3-4 or 3-3 or even a 4-2, linebackers will be tackling runners. We have seen how, even for an exceptional athlete such as Brad Jones, learning how to do this on the inside is a chore and takes time. With no guarantee of success. You can't just stick Bradford, Neal or Mulumba back there and expect good results. That is a mismatch of training and technique. Possibly even body size.

Being more mobile in the D line in a 3-3 doesn't get you anywhere if you can't make the plays from the position your physical attributes have put you in.

Now that takes us to the Capers versus Thompson problem. Thompson is not going to draft like the Steelers and take the exact position fit in the draft, all the time sacrificing value for fit and trying to squeeze in an offensive player or two somewhere in the second round. Wolf didn't do it, T2 doesn't, none of the Wolf tree does it. But their teams have played good D.

Capers has a D that, despite his label as a Mad Scientist, is pretty simple in alignment. Its not kindergarten, if you can only play man coverage you will have some trouble, but he is not throwing a thousand fronts at you or stunting you to the Stone Age. He can do this with a player like Woodson or Matthews, but its not the skeleton and bones of the design.

To avoid getting plastered by an advanced offense, he makes small, game by game adjustments, disguising coverage, pattern matching and matching up CBs to take away offensive strengths. When the D is a vet unit, especially in the backend, it plays very well (see 2009-10). But youth and injuries have ruined those plans in three straight years *. This leads straight to M3's critique and Dom mentioning that they have suffered for being vanilla in the past.

Which is why McCarthy has asked for fewer smaller adjustments from 3 main alignments and more personnel groups. You start the season assuming the depth will play and they have to be able to play something they do well, not just be below average at because they don't have the experience in making the tiny adjustments.

Frankly, McCarthy getting involved has me scared because these kinds of things don't have a history of working out well (at least the public ones, but perhaps they are public because it went wrong). And I have no idea if multiple personnel groups will solve this riddle. The hardest thing for an O to adjust to is a D that plays lots of stuff with the same 11 guys, giving them only one advanced read before the play is over (pre-snap alignment).

Ironically, I think, and its just a guess, that the multiple personnel groups will get you closer to what you are asking. Less square pegs in round holes. They won't try to win with minute adjustments to scheme, but by winning individual battles.


* Plus the lockout and the new CBA that followed

Don't know why MM getting involved would have you nervous - how can things be any worse?? I suppose we could go from 24th in total defense (29th against the run) to 30th.

The problems all stem from running a static 2-4 a disproportionate amount of the time and continually misusing the players in those roles. As I said, getting rid of Pickett and Jolly (2 players I like a lot) may actually help dunderdummy by not giving him sluggish run stoppers that he can't help himself but play in a "jumbo 2-4".

Dunderdummy was so simplistic and predictable in how he reacted to 3 WR's on run/pass down/distances, that all teams had to do was line up 3 wides on 1st and 10, dunderdummy would counter with his jumbo 2-4, and the offense could hand it off for an easy 7 yds!!! Dunderdummy gave up a mindnumbing 167 yds/game on the ground!!!

3rd and 1?? same thing... all the offense had to do to was trot out 3 wides, and dunderidiot would do what was expected of him - result? easy 1st down.

Then in obvious passing situations, when there was 99.9% chance that the offense was going to pass, and Capers was in a pass rushing 2-4, he would more often than not send a static rush, i.e. no presnap movement, no stunting, no blitzing, i.e. easy to know who was coming, in what gaps... easy to block.

Then there is Capers' patented blitz on 2nd down, get a sack - then rush 3 on 3rd down, play looser than loose coverage, and give up an easy 17 yd completion on 3rd and 15!!! Nothing complicated about anything that idiot was doing... the game has passed him by and he needs to retire.

I was actually feeling a little more optimistic a couple of weeks ago, but after reading that article and Trgovac's comments, I'm convinced that our problems on that side of the ball are pandemic. They start with Capers, but everyone else coaching on that side of the ball has been sniffing the fumes from Dom's spraypainted head to the point where the crap that dunderdummy is selling actually makes sense to them!!!

:bang::bang::bang:

[KYPack]

We were the 25th overall defense, 25th against the run.

Give us credit, we gave up exactly 2000 rushing yards, that's hard to do.

We were 24th vs the pass, so that's some balance.

[wist43]

We were the 25th overall defense, 25th against the run.

Give us credit, we gave up exactly 2000 rushing yards, that's hard to do.

We were 24th vs the pass, so that's some balance.

I just grabbed that number off of CBSsportsline...

Went back there, and they have those numbers; and in another spot have us listed at 27th against the run, and 27 overall, lol...

I'm all doped up from a surgery, doesn't help when a website just throws numbers up there without worry if they are correct or not :)

Any way you slice it - it's ugly, ugly stuff.

[KYPack]

I just grabbed that number off of CBSsportsline...

Went back there, and they have those numbers; and in another spot have us listed at 27th against the run, and 27 overall, lol...

I'm all doped up from a surgery, doesn't help when a website just throws numbers up there without worry if they are correct or not :)

Any way you slice it - it's ugly, ugly stuff.

That is true. Different site ranks the D's differently. The NFL site criteria is yards allowed. Some sites go by points or a weighted formula. The GBP had a bottom tier D last season no matter how ya cut it. We need to get better.

I think you are too hung up on criticizing Capers. The guy is a brilliant defensive coach. he came in and straightened out our D when he got here. That said, it's probably time to change things up if the D doesn't perform this season.

The constant drone about the 2-4 is annoying. The 2-4 is a nickel. When we play it with Neal or Perry at one LB, it's really a 30 front anyhow. 3-3, 2-4 is basically the same set, especially on the back end. We need help at multiple spots. George Allen, Buddy Ryan, & Fritz Shurmr couldn't make a go of our D last season. Capers was undermanned last season and hopefully will have the troops he needs this year. A factor in our poor performance last season was an offensive team that was woeful with ARod out. We just didn't have an offense that could give the D a blow and they wore down.

Sometimes when sending in the defenses, you have to give to get. If a coverage is giving up "routine" 17 yard completions, it still might be the right scheme. The safeties made few plays last season and it's tough to dial up an ideal coverage when you get such scanty help from the back line like we had last year.

[Teamcheez1]

That is true. Different site ranks the D's differently. The NFL site criteria is yards allowed. Some sites go by points or a weighted formula. The GBP had a bottom tier D last season no matter how ya cut it. We need to get better.

I think you are too hung up on criticizing Capers. The guy is a brilliant defensive coach. he came in and straightened out our D when he got here. That said, it's probably time to change things up if the D doesn't perform this season.

The constant drone about the 2-4 is annoying. The 2-4 is a nickel. When we play it with Neal or Perry at one LB, it's really a 30 front anyhow. 3-3, 2-4 is basically the same set, especially on the back end. We need help at multiple spots. George Allen, Buddy Ryan, & Fritz Shurmr couldn't make a go of our D last season. Capers was undermanned last season and hopefully will have the troops he needs this year. A factor in our poor performance last season was an offensive team that was woeful with ARod out. We just didn't have an offense that could give the D a blow and they wore down.

Sometimes when sending in the defenses, you have to give to get. If a coverage is giving up "routine" 17 yard completions, it still might be the right scheme. The safeties made few plays last season and it's tough to dial up an ideal coverage when you get such scanty help from the back line like we had last year.

You're making the mistake of using rational thought in this discussion. The nattering nabobs of negativity want nothing of it!

They want nothing less than a pike with Caper's head on it. They may very well get their wish if things don't improve (and I would agree).

[wist43]

That is true. Different site ranks the D's differently. The NFL site criteria is yards allowed. Some sites go by points or a weighted formula. The GBP had a bottom tier D last season no matter how ya cut it. We need to get better.

I think you are too hung up on criticizing Capers. The guy is a brilliant defensive coach. he came in and straightened out our D when he got here. That said, it's probably time to change things up if the D doesn't perform this season.

The constant drone about the 2-4 is annoying. The 2-4 is a nickel. When we play it with Neal or Perry at one LB, it's really a 30 front anyhow. 3-3, 2-4 is basically the same set, especially on the back end. We need help at multiple spots. George Allen, Buddy Ryan, & Fritz Shurmr couldn't make a go of our D last season. Capers was undermanned last season and hopefully will have the troops he needs this year. A factor in our poor performance last season was an offensive team that was woeful with ARod out. We just didn't have an offense that could give the D a blow and they wore down.

Sometimes when sending in the defenses, you have to give to get. If a coverage is giving up "routine" 17 yard completions, it still might be the right scheme. The safeties made few plays last season and it's tough to dial up an ideal coverage when you get such scanty help from the back line like we had last year.

The reason to harp on the 2-4, is b/c Capers plays it far more than any other team in the league - if he played even amounts of 3-3 and 4-2 and the numbers were as pathetic as the 2-4, then there would be no hope whatsoever, and I would figure the personnel to be the problem instead of the coaching.

But the way Capers plays the nickel is an outlier compared to the rest of the league - a huge, throbbing outlier.

As I mentioned in another post, I read an article recently in which it detailed the amount of nickel/dime that teams are playing - the Saints played more nickel/dime than anyone in the league, 85% of snaps. The Packers came in 5th or 6th on that list as I remembered.

The Saints played the 3-3 and 4-2 about evenly, and no 2-4; whereas the Packers played no 3-3 or 4-2, and 2-4 65% of the time. The Niners and Redskins played the 2-4 in the 40 percentile; no one else played it above 30%.

That is an outlier compared to the rest of the league.

If it were an outlier that were working - being a copycat league, the rest of the league would be following suit, and Capers would be knighted as a genius; instead, the Packers defense is garbage, and some Packer fans have actually noticed... some even calling "for his head on a pike".

To tell you the truth, I'm a bit surprised the homers aren't more on Capers's case - b/c if Capers is not to blame, then TT is - yet I don't hear anyone complaining about him either. It would seem that Packer fans are content with garbage defense.

Strange... almost like the "long suffering" years of the 70's and 80's, no??

[wist43]

Try this logic - if we play 2-4 65% of the time, and dime another 15% of the time...

Isn't the 5th DB on the roster much, much more important than the 3rd DL?? and isn't the 6th DB much more important than the 4th DL??

And since we're always playing 4 LB's, aren't the LB's more important than all the DL??

Why then is TT investing all those draft picks in defensive linemen?? Raji, Worthy, Perry, Datone Jones, Neal, Daniels... that's 3 first round picks, 2 second rounders, and a 4th rounder.

While Hawk and Jones are both below average players; Matthews is hurt often enough; and he tries to fill the other outside spot with guys like Walden and now with converted defensive linemen...

You guys don't like to talk about the 2-4, but the 2-4 is the defense we play; so if you're going to talk about Green Bay's defense - it's impossible to avoid the subject; that is, if you really want to discuss the defense beyond the superficial.

[3irty1]

You're being intentionally thick and misleading.

The 5th DB is extremely important and is much clearer than "3rd DL" as DL in general are much more specialized and situational than most DB's. Yes the LB are the most important unit on the defense because they have the edge rushers. Its super common to draft a college DE and convert them to OLB in a 3-4, in fact that's where most of them come from. They are edge rushers first and foremost.

Try this logic - if you're advocating a 3-3 but think one of our LB in a 2-4 is a DL anyways aren't you saying the solution to our defense is the difference between a guy standing or not?

[wist43]

Try this logic - if you're advocating a 3-3 but think one of our LB in a 2-4 is a DL anyways aren't you saying the solution to our defense is the difference between a guy standing or not?

So you're saying the way Capers ran it last year was the cat's meow??

You still have the same problem against the run, i.e. you only have 4 guys in the box, 2 of whom are well below average players (Hawk and B.Jones); and, if the offense passes and you are in the jumbo nickel to account for the possibility of a run, now you're getting exactly zero pass rush up the middle. To make matters worse, as Capers seemed paralyzed by the uncertainty of whether it was going to be a pass or run, he played the 2-4 very static, i.e. little presnap movement, e.g. the offense knew who was rushing, and from where - how many times did we see the OLB's rush upfield, assisted by the OT's as they knew what was coming, zero pass rush from the interior DL, and the QB frying bacon and eggs while reading the paper in a mindnumbingly comfortable pocket??

Both problems are taken care of by going to a true 3-3, i.e. DL with their hands on the ground - preferrably inside the tackles; and, at the same time having that DE sized OLB on the strong side.

Sometimes I wonder if you guys even watch football at all?? Don't know what Dom's excuse is, but since he seems out of his depth these days, McCarthy has been forced to get his hands dirty on that side of the ball.

We'll see if MM actually forces some changes. The personnel are upgraded, so even if dunderdummy stays status quo, I expect we'll be a little better, but if he goes thru the season playing 2-4 nickel 65% of the time, and tries to use it as our base - we'll be making another quick exit from the playoffs.

[KYPack]

Another area that has hurt our D seems minor, but does impact. A big thing in a Zone Blitz D is secondary blitzers that can bring serious heat and get home to notch a sack. we don't have any of those guys and haven't since CW and Nick Collins left the club. If HaHa and Tramon can start to help in that area, it would pick the D up a bit.

[Rutnstrut]

Wist, I applaud you for calling it like it is and note being drunk on the kool-aid that flows freely on this site. Bottom line, I have zero confidence in Capers and believe it will be another horrible season defense wise. The coaches and homers will blame it on injuries, which is already starting. When you have this many injuries to key players, this many years in a row, it's not a coincidence. Which leads us to coaching and higher not making the needed changes.

[bobblehead]

Wist, I applaud you for calling it like it is and note being drunk on the kool-aid that flows freely on this site. Bottom line, I have zero confidence in Capers and believe it will be another horrible season defense wise. The coaches and homers will blame it on injuries, which is already starting. When you have this many injuries to key players, this many years in a row, it's not a coincidence. Which leads us to coaching and higher not making the needed changes.

I have criticized MM for not enough contact in practice leading to injuries, but you certainly can't be sure its not a coincidence. If you think its the fault of the coaching staff I would ask why? I have stated my opinion many times, but to simply say its not a coincidence without any reason/evidence is foolish.

[pbmax]

Another area that has hurt our D seems minor, but does impact. A big thing in a Zone Blitz D is secondary blitzers that can bring serious heat and get home to notch a sack. we don't have any of those guys and haven't since CW and Nick Collins left the club. If HaHa and Tramon can start to help in that area, it would pick the D up a bit.

Nice point. Its dovetails nicely with the need at both positions. I am surprised Jones isn't more effective as a blitzer.

[pittstang5]

My biggest concern this year is the Run D. No more Pickett, Jolly and Wilson - 3 big boys that helped stuff the run. Daniels, Raji, Boyd and Jones, when I hear their names, I don't think run stuffers, I think pass rushers. The Viking guy (Guion?) and Worthy can't get on the field (I have my doubts about Worthy seeing the field this year). The rest of the D-lineman are rookies. I hope having Peppers helps, but I think we get gashed alot this year.

[Guiness]

My biggest concern this year is the Run D. No more Pickett, Jolly and Wilson - 3 big boys that helped stuff the run. Daniels, Raji, Boyd and Jones, when I hear their names, I don't think run stuffers, I think pass rushers. The Viking guy (Guion?) and Worthy can't get on the field (I have my doubts about Worthy seeing the field this year). The rest of the D-lineman are rookies. I hope having Peppers helps, but I think we get gashed alot this year.

Can't believe Pickett is still unemployed. He made what, $6M last year? He played quite well, I'm surprised he hasn't signed on somewhere for at least $2-3M.

He isn't hurt, is he?

edit: little piece on him at JSO, he's healthy and waiting
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/free-agent-ryan-pickett-waiting-for-a-call-b99303242z1-265637431.html

[wist43]

My biggest concern this year is the Run D. No more Pickett, Jolly and Wilson - 3 big boys that helped stuff the run. Daniels, Raji, Boyd and Jones, when I hear their names, I don't think run stuffers, I think pass rushers. The Viking guy (Guion?) and Worthy can't get on the field (I have my doubts about Worthy seeing the field this year). The rest of the D-lineman are rookies. I hope having Peppers helps, but I think we get gashed alot this year.

We had one of the worst run defenses in the league last year as it was... but this makes for an interesting analysis.

We had one of the worst run defenses b/c we were continually gashed when Capers was in his "jumbo nickel" with Pickett and Raji essentially tasked with taking on the entire offensive line - and, as I've pointed out many times, this idiotic alignment also produced diminished returns in pass defense b/c Raji and Pickett generated exactly zero pass rush up the middle, so it was the worst of both worlds.

What is now giving me a little optimism however, is the fact that they did not resign Pickett and Jolly, so that idiotic "jumbo 2-4" shouldn't be played nearly as much - you would think it would mean much more base, and more 3-3 nickel, both of which are remedies for what was wrong last year.

Having Peppers will help, b/c he is a stud, and if Matthews stays healthy we can't help but be improved; however, if Capers insists on running some version of his "jumbo 2-4", then we'll get pretty close to the same results.

There's no reason we shouldn't be able to matchup with 3 wides with base personnel - depending on opponent. Some of the pass happy teams, when they go 3 wides, it isn't some ruse to open up their running game - they mean to pass, and pass a lot; go ahead and jump into a 3-3 on 1st and 10, or 2nd and 6 against their 3 wides, I wouldn't have a problem with that; but if we're going up against a run heavy team, that throws 3 wides out there on 1st down, there's no reason we shouldn't be able to match up with them in our base.

Pass defense - isn't that supposed to be the strength of Brad Jones's game?? If an opponent is in 3 wides, and we're in base... you're still going to drop both ILB's, and 1 OLB usually... that's 7 guys in coverage.

I actually think we will be better b/c of the subtraction of Pickett and Jolly (both players I like) - for no other reason than it should force Capers to use the personnel he's been given to their strengths.

[red]

Can't believe Pickett is still unemployed. He made what, $6M last year? He played quite well, I'm surprised he hasn't signed on somewhere for at least $2-3M.

He isn't hurt, is he?

edit: little piece on him at JSO, he's healthy and waiting
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/free-agent-ryan-pickett-waiting-for-a-call-b99303242z1-265637431.html

Hes a known quantity that at his age probably doesnt need TC.

Teams will have as many young players as they can on their rosters right now. Once they weed all the youngsters that cant play out, and once injuries start pilling up, pickett will be quickly snached up

[BZnDallas]

Wist, I applaud you for calling it like it is and note being drunk on the kool-aid that flows freely on this site. Bottom line, I have zero confidence in Capers and believe it will be another horrible season defense wise. The coaches and homers will blame it on injuries, which is already starting. When you have this many injuries to key players, this many years in a row, it's not a coincidence. Which leads us to coaching and higher not making the needed changes.

I read somewhere the other day (twitter maybe?) that Raji was looking pretty good with his 'new' role trying to get after the passer and not take on blockers like Wist has not quite gotten through our heads is wrong. I actually do agree with Wist on some of his criticisms, and I know a lot of other Packerrats do too. However I'm willing and I'm sure they are too, to believe MM when he says he's going to have Capers be a bit more offensive on the defensive side of the ball. (see what I did there?)

On another note, isn't this whole 'Kool-aid' drinking thing getting kind of old? It used to be amusing, but its become cliche'. Any positive argument no matter how correct, is met with the 'kool-aid' response. yadda yadda yadda. I have yet to read a comment that says this defense will be a top 5 defense in the league this year. Or that Capers is the best DC in the league. Had I read one of those, I'd be the first to throw out Kool-aid drinkers. But fans being optimistic on a website chatting about what improvements have been made or what losses the team might have endured during the off-season and what that might mean in the upcoming season, has nothing to do with your tiresome, built in 'kool-aid' response. Please find another anecdote to run into the ground.

Injuries, on the other hand. Please tell me what the coaching can do to fix the injury problems. As far as I know, the NFL mandates how many practices you can hold and how many days in row and all that mess. If I'm wrong on that, apologies good sir. The higher ups? Alright I might could get behind that, can you show me where our training staff is practicing unsafe and unrealistic stretching techniques? Or that their regimen is so far different than what other teams do, so much so that we need to find new ones? If so, problem solved! I'm not holding my breath. What else does that leave? Coincidence it seems, maybe its time to get over it?

[BZnDallas]

Hes a known quantity that at his age probably doesnt need TC.

Teams will have as many young players as they can on their rosters right now. Once they weed all the youngsters that cant play out, and once injuries start pilling up, pickett will be quickly snached up

Agreed. I could see Pick coming down here to Big D at some point if the price got low enough. Cowboys don't have much cap space, but have plenty of space for talent, even if it is a lil elderly.

[Fritz]

I read somewhere the other day (twitter maybe?) that Raji was looking pretty good with his 'new' role trying to get after the passer and not take on blockers like Wist has not quite gotten through our heads is wrong. I actually do agree with Wist on some of his criticisms, and I know a lot of other Packerrats do too. However I'm willing and I'm sure they are too, to believe MM when he says he's going to have Capers be a bit more offensive on the defensive side of the ball. (see what I did there?)

On another note, isn't this whole 'Kool-aid' drinking thing getting kind of old? It used to be amusing, but its become cliche'. Any positive argument no matter how correct, is met with the 'kool-aid' response. yadda yadda yadda. I have yet to read a comment that says this defense will be a top 5 defense in the league this year. Or that Capers is the best DC in the league. Had I read one of those, I'd be the first to throw out Kool-aid drinkers. But fans being optimistic on a website chatting about what improvements have been made or what losses the team might have endured during the off-season and what that might mean in the upcoming season, has nothing to do with your tiresome, built in 'kool-aid' response. Please find another anecdote to run into the ground.

Injuries, on the other hand. Please tell me what the coaching can do to fix the injury problems. As far as I know, the NFL mandates how many practices you can hold and how many days in row and all that mess. If I'm wrong on that, apologies good sir. The higher ups? Alright I might could get behind that, can you show me where our training staff is practicing unsafe and unrealistic stretching techniques? Or that their regimen is so far different than what other teams do, so much so that we need to find new ones? If so, problem solved! I'm not holding my breath. What else does that leave? Coincidence it seems, maybe its time to get over it?


Excellent point. People who offer optimistic points of view are "kool aid drinkers," and people who offer negative points of view are "telling it like it is." At least in some posters' worlds.

[wist43]

I read somewhere the other day (twitter maybe?) that Raji was looking pretty good with his 'new' role trying to get after the passer and not take on blockers like Wist has not quite gotten through our heads is wrong.

I actually do agree with Wist on some of his criticisms, and I know a lot of other Packerrats do too. However I'm willing and I'm sure they are too, to believe MM when he says he's going to have Capers be a bit more offensive on the defensive side of the ball. (see what I did there?)

On another note, isn't this whole 'Kool-aid' drinking thing getting kind of old? It used to be amusing, but its become cliche'. Any positive argument no matter how correct, is met with the 'kool-aid' response. yadda yadda yadda. I have yet to read a comment that says this defense will be a top 5 defense in the league this year. Or that Capers is the best DC in the league.


Excellent point. People who offer optimistic points of view are "kool aid drinkers," and people who offer negative points of view are "telling it like it is." At least in some posters' worlds.

Wait a minute... what, lol??

When have I ever said what you just said BZ?? That Raji should be eating up blockers and not being used as a penetrator??

I'm beginning to think those of you who criticize me, don't actually read what I write??!!

I want Raji to be a penetrator - it's what he does best. What he does not do best, is 2-gap, handle double teams, and eat up blocks... I've been saying that since he was drafted!! WTF??

Since 2011 I've argued he's been used incorrectly - just as everyone in the front (6-7) has been misused. It is TT and Capers who are not on the same page.

TT drafts Raji (a 1-gap penetrator), Perry (who will never be an OLB), D. Jones (who is a penetrator), Daniels (penetrator), et al - and then Capers misuses them. Raji in the "2-4 jumbo" is a waste - the "2-4 jumbo" is a waste!! Perry being played at OLB is straight out of the "square peg, round hole" school of doing things; and D. Jones and Daniels should be played as downlinemen in nickel pass rush situations - preferrably not the 2-4, lol...

Seriously, why do you guys blather off at the mouth assigning me positions I have not taken?? You may not like the tenor of my posts - but if you are going to attempt to argue against the position I've taken, you should at least read what I wrote - should you not??

----------------------------------------------------------

As for "Kool-Aid"... the reason some of you get that label is b/c you argue against a perfectly valid criticism (usually against Capers and the defense), as if the criticism is invalid, e.g. what Capers is doing, is the best that can be done!!

What you're left is - blaming the players (but not TT), and completely absolving Capers. That makes absolutely no sense... that's the Kool-Aid talking.

[pbmax]

BZnDallas, I might be reading that sentence wist bolded wrong (specifically what you are saying wist advocates with this part "and not take on blockers like Wist has not quite gotten through our heads"), but Raji is one area I do agree with wist.

Raji is not an ideal space eater. He should be, as Fritz has pointed out before based on measurables, but he is much more easily moved than Pickett when double-teamed. He was, however, the second best at holding his ground on the team though and that is why he saw so much playing time in all sets. The trend for Raji has been from pass rushing penetrator to space eater.

Patler has pointed out that players, as they age, often learn new tricks (the smart ones anyway). And Raji might still pick up some things Pickett or Jolly could do. So he could morph into that role. But Raji clearly loved his quickness off the snap and at times looked like he wanted to be a penetrator (see either of the first two games versus Peterson in 2012). Raji might be the best player on the Packers in terms of quickness off the ball. Mathews is just as, if not more, explosive, but he gets called for offside a fair number of times. Raji does it without many flags.

As a fan, you want to see a player succeed and do what they do best. Coaches need to stitch together a defense that utilizes ALL the available talent. The problem with Raji is that he seems to have been using the lesser of his skills. Whether its attitude, decline, skill erosion, wear and tear or just what he has been asked to do is the $64,000 question.

[Joemailman]

So, to all you X's and O'S folks, if Raji is going to be 1-gapping at NT, whose responsibilities change to cover up the other gap?

[Carolina_Packer]

Can someone clear up why Pickett and Raji switched positions to begin with after the 2010 Super Bowl season? Was it at the start of 2011 or did Raji get hurt for a bit, they put Pickett in and decided to keep it that way? If Pickett was more versatile than Raji, why keep the change?

[KYPack]

So, to all you X's and O'S folks, if Raji is going to be 1-gapping at NT, whose responsibilities change to cover up the other gap?

Good question, there, Maildude.

Basically, in a 3-4, the only DL two gapping is the nose tackle (0 tech). There are exceptions to that rule based on individual talent (Haloti Ngata 2 gaps anywhere he plays for instance) but generally that's the case.

Who's responsibility for the gaps?

The defense. All 11 guys make their forces, get body on blockers and the free tackler makes the play. Some of the talk on here is kinda shit. Defense is simple, especially vs the run, until you fuck it up. The key to any running offense is to try and get your best blocker in front of your best runner and call those plays against the right situation and looks.

In a standard defense, it's 7 across the front with each man doing his job including being responsible for his gap. It goes beyond just the gap responsibility really. That defensive coach is trying to get his guys in position to put a hat on a hat and have a free man in a spot to make the tackle. The defense is clicking when all 11 guys move like one giant body. Certainly, if your 0 tech is getting wiped out or not covering one gap or the other, it's a huge setback for defensing the run.

Wist is definitely right about the fact that the run D sucked last season. Was it because Capers has become dated and stupid? Hardly.

I blame the shoes. That's right, the shoes the Packers wear.

Those shoes need to have better defenders in them.

There were many times last season defenders were in position to make tackles and plays and they failed. Was it coaching, yeah, could be. But it boils down to execution and last season we didn't get it done. I think we got outplayed last year, not out schemed.

[wist43]

So, to all you X's and O'S folks, if Raji is going to be 1-gapping at NT, whose responsibilities change to cover up the other gap?

I can't say how Capers will run the base... he sparingly played a base 3-4 when he had the personnel to run it better - how will he run it now that he doesn't have 'best-fit' players for the alignment??

That said, you can 1-gap out of the 3-4 base, but I think you have to crash the backside DE of which ever way the NT goes, and the OLB on that side takes on more responsibility for setting the edge on that side. As long as everyone executes to their responsibility, it shouldn't be a problem.

There is more than one way to skin a cat - but one thing is for sure, Capers can't be trusted to use the players according to their strengths - he's proven that.

[pbmax]

Can someone clear up why Pickett and Raji switched positions to begin with after the 2010 Super Bowl season? Was it at the start of 2011 or did Raji get hurt for a bit, they put Pickett in and decided to keep it that way? If Pickett was more versatile than Raji, why keep the change?

Ironically, Capers wanted to move Raji to a position where he would be single-teamed more and be able to penetrate more (this is more assumption than established, reported fact). It also allowed Pickett to move inside where he was more comfortable. McGinn was the first to catch wind of this switch and reported that the Packers called the defense an Eagle Oakie. It was base 3-4 personnel, but aligned the front five like they were playing a 4-3 under. One OLB was aligned like Sean Jones in Fritz Shumur's defense (7 tech). The other aligned like Wayne Simmons.

It might have been an attempt to stiffen the run D. In 2009 with Pick in the middle, it was a nightmare to run against. In 2010 with Raji in the middle, it was easier.

Now the story conflicts from there. In most base looks, the Packers don't let the lineman Jet upfield, regardless of whether you are a nose tackle or 3 or 5 tech DT. Raji did not fare well there, it was clear Pickett felt more at home at NT than at DE like he was in 2010.

Regardless, the return of Pickett to the middle didn't help the run D. Now it may not have all been about these two. Jenkiins was gone, Jolly was gone, Corey Williams was gone.

But the odd thing about Raji in the middle this year is that there is not much talk about adjustment up front. Trgovac said they might play less 2-gap (he said it was ultimately up to Capers who had not indicated that the calls will change), though he insists that they do not play as much as people assume. And 1 gap doesn't mean you are penetrating up the field like Chris Doleman and Keith Millard either. They were pass rushing first and only playing run D if they saw the ball in a RB's hands.

So I don't think their roles and responsibilities change much. It looks more and more like there will simply be more and different people on the field trying to take away specific things from an offense. Surprisingly, this approach is probably least effective against a San Fran offense, that does multiple things well with similar personnel. It will work better against Seattle unless Percy Harvin can actually play and they find replacements for Rice and Tate.

[BZnDallas]

Wait a minute... what, lol??

When have I ever said what you just said BZ?? That Raji should be eating up blockers and not being used as a penetrator??

I'm beginning to think those of you who criticize me, don't actually read what I write??!!

I want Raji to be a penetrator - it's what he does best. What he does not do best, is 2-gap, handle double teams, and eat up blocks... I've been saying that since he was drafted!! WTF??

Since 2011 I've argued he's been used incorrectly - just as everyone in the front (6-7) has been misused. It is TT and Capers who are not on the same page.

TT drafts Raji (a 1-gap penetrator), Perry (who will never be an OLB), D. Jones (who is a penetrator), Daniels (penetrator), et al - and then Capers misuses them. Raji in the "2-4 jumbo" is a waste - the "2-4 jumbo" is a waste!! Perry being played at OLB is straight out of the "square peg, round hole" school of doing things; and D. Jones and Daniels should be played as downlinemen in nickel pass rush situations - preferrably not the 2-4, lol...

Seriously, why do you guys blather off at the mouth assigning me positions I have not taken?? You may not like the tenor of my posts - but if you are going to attempt to argue against the position I've taken, you should at least read what I wrote - should you not??

----------------------------------------------------------

As for "Kool-Aid"... the reason some of you get that label is b/c you argue against a perfectly valid criticism (usually against Capers and the defense), as if the criticism is invalid, e.g. what Capers is doing, is the best that can be done!!

What you're left is - blaming the players (but not TT), and completely absolving Capers. That makes absolutely no sense... that's the Kool-Aid talking.


Whoa! Did I type what I was trying to say incorrectly? I thought I said Raji was looking good trying to penetrate (or get after the passer) and not just eat up blockers? Did I not say that?

[BZnDallas]

My apologies... after re-reading what I wrote it is pretty confusing... what I was trying to say is that I read somewhere that Raji was looking good being a penetrator and NOT just taking on blockers... then I was trying to be funny by saying that Wist hasn't told us enough that is the way it should have been all along... sorry Wist :roll: ... I really was trying to give you credit...

The koolaid thing just gets old... Im sure there are times when its appropriate, just seems like its a default response now...

[bobblehead]

TT drafts Raji (a 1-gap penetrator), Perry (who will never be an OLB), D. Jones (who is a penetrator), Daniels (penetrator), et al - and then Capers misuses them. Raji in the "2-4 jumbo" is a waste - the "2-4 jumbo" is a waste!!

Wist, I tend to agree with a lot of what you say, and sometimes I think you are a bit too negative about things. One area I don't agree with you though is this. Datone is a well rounded 3-4 DE. Look at his college game tape. He isn't just a penatrator. Perry also has all the skills necessary to be an effective OLB. His strength will never be coverage, but in our D, the OLB isn't supposed to be running across the field with a TE or a RB. He occupies a zone. I am pretty sure he can back peddle 4-7 yards and stand in an area. Many a lessor athlete has excelled doing it.

The drafting of Worthy and Daniels (who are primarily penetrators) was a direct response to losing Jenkins and the effect not having any pass rush from the DL. I am not sure what is going on with Perry, but I haven't totally thrown in the towel on him yet as he does flash at times.

Basically the thing that people get sick of is the all or nothing mentality. If you are Wist and Red then everything is hopeless and wrong. If we disagree with you we are totally opposite spectrum and guzzling Kool Aid. It would be nice if you would admit at some point that Capers has in the past, and is capable of fielding a top 10 or even 5 defense. He is not the coaching equivalent of Kurt Schottenheimer or Slocum. He has dealt with a lot of key injuries that mess up his plans.

For my part I am in full agreement with you that we continued to play WAY too much 2-4 long after the talent still standing didn't work very well with the alignment, and in situations that made me scratch my head like 2nd and goal from the 1. The truth (as often is the case) lies somewhere in the middle. Capers certainly could be better, but he is far from a bumbling moron who has no idea how to coach defense.

[wist43]

My apologies... after re-reading what I wrote it is pretty confusing... what I was trying to say is that I read somewhere that Raji was looking good being a penetrator and NOT just taking on blockers... then I was trying to be funny by saying that Wist hasn't told us enough that is the way it should have been all along... sorry Wist :roll: ... I really was trying to give you credit...

The koolaid thing just gets old... Im sure there are times when its appropriate, just seems like its a default response now...

You had some double-negative stuff going on there... I had to read it a few times just to try to get past the 'no' and 'no', lol... you would have gotten red scribbles all over your paper had it been a sentence you handed in to English 101 :)

As for the "kool-aid" comment... don't know where that came from - I don't use the term much, can't remember the last time I used it :cnf:

If I'm doing this ' :bang: ' after trying to penetrate the skulls around here, I'll stoop to calling you guys "homers", lol ;)

[wist43]

Ironically, Capers wanted to move Raji to a position where he would be single-teamed more and be able to penetrate more (this is more assumption than established, reported fact). It also allowed Pickett to move inside where he was more comfortable. McGinn was the first to catch wind of this switch and reported that the Packers called the defense an Eagle Oakie. It was base 3-4 personnel, but aligned the front five like they were playing a 4-3 under. One OLB was aligned like Sean Jones in Fritz Shumur's defense (7 tech). The other aligned like Wayne Simmons.

It might have been an attempt to stiffen the run D. In 2009 with Pick in the middle, it was a nightmare to run against. In 2010 with Raji in the middle, it was easier.

We didn't run enough base 3-4 for it to matter much - most of the damage against us in the run game game against the 2-4 "jumbo nickel", and some against the pass rush nickel.


Now the story conflicts from there. In most base looks, the Packers don't let the lineman Jet upfield, regardless of whether you are a nose tackle or 3 or 5 tech DT. Raji did not fare well there, it was clear Pickett felt more at home at NT than at DE like he was in 2010.

It was Pickett who was the 1-trick pony. At this stage of his career, what ability he had to get down the line, or push the pocket, is gone - he is strictly a NT that can stand in a phone booth and slug it out.

At least Raji could play NT in a pinch, as long as they kept a leash on his snap count - but they didn't do that either. So Raji wore down (MM's "he's a young man" comment comes back to mind) and his effectiveness anywhere they played him was diminished - I don't put this on Raji, I put it on Capers.


Regardless, the return of Pickett to the middle didn't help the run D. Now it may not have all been about these two. Jenkiins was gone, Jolly was gone, Corey Williams was gone.

But the odd thing about Raji in the middle this year is that there is not much talk about adjustment up front. Trgovac said they might play less 2-gap (he said it was ultimately up to Capers who had not indicated that the calls will change), though he insists that they do not play as much as people assume. And 1 gap doesn't mean you are penetrating up the field like Chris Doleman and Keith Millard either. They were pass rushing first and only playing run D if they saw the ball in a RB's hands.

So I don't think their roles and responsibilities change much. It looks more and more like there will simply be more and different people on the field trying to take away specific things from an offense. Surprisingly, this approach is probably least effective against a San Fran offense, that does multiple things well with similar personnel. It will work better against Seattle unless Percy Harvin can actually play and they find replacements for Rice and Tate.

As I've been saying - I think not resigning Pickett, and not really having a legimate, 2-gapping NT on the Roster - means they will necessarily have to play a more penetrating scheme; or, the alternative will be misplaying Raji and Boyd as 2-gap NT's.

If Capers does that?? Then Raji will wear down again, and we'll necessarily be playing our nickel pass rush guys, like Daniels, at DE in the base. If we play base 20% of the time, it had better be with guys like Boyd, Guion, Worthy, and Thorton.

I don't want to see Daniels or D. Jones in the base at all, and I'd prefer to limit Raji's snaps in the base as well. I want all of those guys fresh for subpackage pass rush duty.

[pbmax]

But if you don't see penetrating calls (Jet) but you do see 1 gapping Raji, will that be enough to make him effective?

[Carolina_Packer]

Wist, I tend to agree with a lot of what you say, and sometimes I think you are a bit too negative about things. One area I don't agree with you though is this. Datone is a well rounded 3-4 DE. Look at his college game tape. He isn't just a penatrator. Perry also has all the skills necessary to be an effective OLB. His strength will never be coverage, but in our D, the OLB isn't supposed to be running across the field with a TE or a RB. He occupies a zone. I am pretty sure he can back peddle 4-7 yards and stand in an area. Many a lessor athlete has excelled doing it.

The drafting of Worthy and Daniels (who are primarily penetrators) was a direct response to losing Jenkins and the effect not having any pass rush from the DL. I am not sure what is going on with Perry, but I haven't totally thrown in the towel on him yet as he does flash at times.

Basically the thing that people get sick of is the all or nothing mentality. If you are Wist and Red then everything is hopeless and wrong. If we disagree with you we are totally opposite spectrum and guzzling Kool Aid. It would be nice if you would admit at some point that Capers has in the past, and is capable of fielding a top 10 or even 5 defense. He is not the coaching equivalent of Kurt Schottenheimer or Slocum. He has dealt with a lot of key injuries that mess up his plans.

For my part I am in full agreement with you that we continued to play WAY too much 2-4 long after the talent still standing didn't work very well with the alignment, and in situations that made me scratch my head like 2nd and goal from the 1. The truth (as often is the case) lies somewhere in the middle. Capers certainly could be better, but he is far from a bumbling moron who has no idea how to coach defense.

Well stated. I agree with what you say. I think most fans know there is something wrong, but do not necessarily agree upon the root cause. It would seem that MM knows that something is wrong as well, but has not yet made Capers pay with his job. If there is not significant improvement this year, MM knows he has to make a change. Does that mean that Capers will run less "Big Nickel"? Only they know. Do the personnel changes along the DL indicate that they will play the nickel differently?

I think we can all agree that stopping the run and winning the down and distance battle and dictating terms on third down is critical. Now they just need to find a way to do it.

As for Nickel sub, here is a cool article from 2010: http://blitzology.blogspot.com/2010/12/green-bay-packers-psycho-package.html There's a video link of the Cowboy game where we dominated, which is cool. I believe it was KY who said they've got to get home when they send pressure. So true.

[BZnDallas]

You had some double-negative stuff going on there... I had to read it a few times just to try to get past the 'no' and 'no', lol... you would have gotten red scribbles all over your paper had it been a sentence you handed in to English 101 :)

As for the "kool-aid" comment... don't know where that came from - I don't use the term much, can't remember the last time I used it :cnf:

If I'm doing this ' :bang: ' after trying to penetrate the skulls around here, I'll stoop to calling you guys "homers", lol ;)

HAHA!! Glad we got past all that. The koolaid thing was more of a general comment that might have been more aimed at Rut, but I think I was just trying at a public service announcement :pack: