Free Agents and Green Bay

[pbmax]

So is Ted simply a lazy, good for nothing incompetent who aspires to be mediocre?

Or is there an actual problem in attracting Free Agents to Green Bay?

Jason Wilde ‏@jasonjwilde 1h
Topic No. 3 on @BoucherAuto #GGToday: @michaelirvin88 told @ESPNCleveland he refused to go to #Packers. Why has GB perception changed?

Jason Wilde ‏@jasonjwilde 1h
RT @AaronNagler: I used to dismiss the "Players don't want to come to GB" talk, but the more players I talk to the more I realize it's real.

[smuggler]

Irvin was an idiot cokehead though. Of course a guy like that doesn't want to go to a small city and a rural area. Yeah players who want the lights are going to be hard to bring in, but those usually aren't the kind of guys our team wants in the first place.

[run pMc]

IIRC GB took Sterling Sharpe over Irvin because Cocaine Mike was pretty vocal about not wanting to play for GB.
I also thought the perception changed when Reggie White signed, and wasn't a common feeling since then because they're almost always in the playoffs.

GB is a small town so it's not likely to be the most diverse or urbane area. It's a drive to MKE or CHI, so I could see that.

However, if there's a bias against GB, they aren't the only city -- consider JAX or BUF, and MIN is a cold weather city, DET is a bankrupt if not dying city, and OAK and CLE are perennial losers. I can't believe GB is the only team that has trouble attracting FA. I do think it plays into TT approach a tiny amount in that he may have to overpay to lure FA's (see Charles Woodson).

[Freak Out]

I can see where it might be tough luring a certain personality type to come play in GB...but of you are smart you would take a long hard look at what is offered. Short careers, limited jobs in the field, always contends for the playoffs, plus you don't have to spend all year in GB if you so desire. If I had the choice between any of the places named above I would take Oakland based on location alone.

[Just Jeff]

Its a business. Players have agents. Agents get commissions. Green Bay offers more, the agent has to take it. His client can say no, but the odds are that most say yes. There are less than 10 players on each roster that can be choosey about who they play for. The rest need a check and agents don't take any BS from their 2nd tier clients.

[mraynrand]

Its a business. Players have agents. Agents get commissions. Green Bay offers more, the agent has to take it. His client can say no, but the odds are that most say yes. There are less than 10 players on each roster that can be choosey about who they play for. The rest need a check and agents don't take any BS from their 2nd tier clients.

Is Brad Jones second tier or third tier?

[MadtownPacker]

Minimal drinking laws and hella White girls?? Seems like the perfect place for today's brotha.

[red]

well, it is probably harder to find crack and malt liquor in green bay. green bay takes pride in its beer and its more of a meth town

plus the area prefers fried fish to fried chicken

[Zool]

well, it is probably harder to find crack and malt liquor in green bay. green bay takes pride in its beer and its more of a meth town

plus the area prefers fried fish to fried chicken

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/09/racist1.gif

[Brandon494]

Yea I've been saying this for how long? I mean its common sense really.

[Smeefers]

I don't think it's an issue bringing free agents in. I just don't think it's something this team really cares to do. TT firmly believes in building in the draft. He gets young players locked up for 4 years at a cheap price. There's absolutely no reason for him to go out and look for more expensive talent. If TT was a shitty drafter and picked bust after bust, but he was a fantastic evaluater of free agent talent - you can bet your bottom dollar that we'd be hauling in free agents left and right. This is much to do about nothing.

[Brandon494]

I'm sure Green Bay is a great place to grow up but no one wants to live in a small town with shitty weather while in the prime of their young life.

[Bretsky]

Is Brad Jones second tier or third tier?

On the HS JV football team ?

3rd tier

[Smeefers]

I'm sure Green Bay is a great place to grow up but no one wants to live in a small town with shitty weather while in the prime of their young life.

Even for millions of dollars?

[Smeefers]

Well, I'm not arguing that other places don't have a bigger draw. Who wouldn't want to live in New York or LA or Miami or Texas? They're great places with lots of draws. And I will concede that if salary was a wash and you had your choice between the 49ers and GB, some people would take the nicer weather but I'm sure there's a large amount of people who want the tradition and fanaticism.

[Brandon494]

Well, I'm not arguing that other places don't have a bigger draw. Who wouldn't want to live in New York or LA or Miami or Texas? They're great places with lots of draws. And I will concede that if salary was a wash and you had your choice between the 49ers and GB, some people would take the nicer weather but I'm sure there's a large amount of people who want the tradition and fanaticism.

Unless you grew up a Packers fan 99% of football players are going to pick 49ers.

[mraynrand]

For a young black adult star athlete, Green Bay is about as much fun as cancer.

[Brandon494]

Even for millions of dollars?

Well considering you can make millions of dollars else where....

[Brandon494]

For a young black adult star athlete, Green Bay is about as much fun as cancer.

Not only blacks, Jim Kelly named the Packers as one of the teams he didn't want to play for. You are young millionaire....why the hell would you want to live in Green Bay over other major cities.

I'm not knocking Green Bay but its like asking me if I'd rather fuck Scarlett Johansson or Meryl Streep.

[mraynrand]

The positives: Players make more and thus are more mobile - they can get away from GB quickly after the season is over in Jan and fly in and out for OTAs. Technology keeps them connected to their buds during the season. Green Bay does appeal to the players who really want to focus without distractions during the season. So unless you like ice fishing or snow shoeing (or occasional desultory hunting like Corey Williams), there's not much to draw you away from the work at hand.

[woodbuck27]

Irvin was an idiot cokehead though. Of course a guy like that doesn't want to go to a small city and a rural area. Yeah players who want the lights are going to be hard to bring in, but those usually aren't the kind of guys our team wants in the first place.

Whatever and coke:

Michael "The Playmaker' Irvin was flat out a sensational WR. Flat out a sensational team player for the Boys and in his prime; a burr under the Green Bay Packers saddle.

When I review film of him I'm always impressed. I get to see him a lot on NFL Access and over time have grown to appreciate him more. I wasn't a fan of his in the 1990's as he was so fricken' good and hurt the Green Bay Packers as a major foe. He was a part of "The Triplets" along with Troy Aikman and Emmitt Smith and is known as one if not the greatest Dallas Cowboy All Time.

Career history ... Dallas Cowboys (1988–1999)

Career highlights and awards:

5 × Pro Bowl (1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995) ; AP First-Team All-Pro (1991)
2 × AP Second-Team All-Pro (1992, 1993);

3 × Super Bowl champion (XXVII, XXVIII, XXX)

3 × NFC Champion (1992, 1993, 1995)

NFL 1990s All-Decade Team

NFL single season record eleven 100-yard games (1995)

Pro Bowl MVP (1991)

Dallas Cowboys Ring of Honor; Ranked 92nd by The Top 100: NFL's Greatest Players


Pro Football Hall of Fame inductee (2007)


Career NFL statistics:

Receptions 750 ; Receiving yards 11,904 ; Touchdowns 65

Where can Ted Thompson find a cokehead like that?

It doesn't matter as Ted Thompson's Legacy will always be defined by the luck that was Aaron Rodgers falling all the way down to pick NO. 24 in the 2005 Draft. The one time that picking BPA did work out very well.

Really and to date where would Ted Thompson be as a NFL GM and no Aaron Rodgers?

I hear a sink faucet dripping.

[Zool]

When your wiki page has a section for "Legal Troubles" with multiple links, you're an asshole. Michael Irvin is an asshole. Being a good football player does not excuse him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Irvin#Legal_troubles

[pbmax]

Its obviously a factor. Woodson is proof you can spend enough to overcome it. But if a player has options, it is probably a point in favor of the bigger city.

Having regularly secured good players in FA and continued success, plus Rodgers and a Super Bowl winning coach are pretty good selling points. From White, Santana Dotson, Seth Joyner, Al Harris (trade plus contract extensions), Woodson, Pickett and Peppers, its clear you can come to Green Bay and do well. If you secure one of those guys every few years, the story you can sell to a prospect is pretty positive.

[ThunderDan]

Receptions 750 ; Receiving yards 11,904 ; Touchdowns 65

Where can Ted Thompson find a cokehead like that?

It doesn't matter as Ted Thompson's Legacy will always be defined by the luck that was Aaron Rodgers falling all the way down to pick NO. 24 in the 2005 Draft. The one time that picking BPA did work out very well.

Really and to date where would Ted Thompson be as a NFL GM and no Aaron Rodgers?

I hear a sink faucet dripping.

Jordy Nelson: 302 rec, 4,590 yards, 36 TDs
If he plays the next 4 years like the last 3 he will be at:
600 rec, 9,400 yards, 80 TDs

Gregg Jennings: As a Packer 425 rec, 6,537 yards, 53 TDs in 7 years

James Jones: 310 rec, 4,305 yards, 37 TDs in 7 years

Randall Cobb: 136 rec, 1,736 yards, 13 TDs in 3 years

Four above average WR a couple who could become HOF material without injuries (Jennings and Cobb)

TT's legacy will be defined by his Super Bowl win and being able to guide the Packers from the Favre era to the Rodgers era. That he had the foresight to draft AR when he had a HOF, MVP caliber QB on his roster speaks volumes to his expertise not luck.

Also, are you really supporting drug use as a way of life? You seem to be telling TT to draft drug addicts something I would never suspect someone of your character to do.

[Smeefers]

Unless you grew up a Packers fan 99% of football players are going to pick 49ers.

You win. You've blown me away with your persuasive argument. No one wants to play in Green Bay except for former residents.

[Brandon494]

You win. You've blown me away with your persuasive argument. No one wants to play in Green Bay except for former residents.

Green Bay is obviously a great place because once players come here they love it. I'm just stating as far as FA destinations we will always be near the bottom of the list for most players.

[call_me_ishmael]

What do he suppose to say?

[Just Jeff]

99% of the players, all things being equal, would rather go to south florida, the west or east coast, maybe chicago. All things aren't equal. Most of the comments about not wanting to go to GB go back to the times when we sucked. I think that GB post 1992 is a far more inviting place than pre 1992.

[Guiness]

It doesn't matter as Ted Thompson's Legacy will always be defined by the luck that was Aaron Rodgers falling all the way down to pick NO. 24 in the 2005 Draft. The one time that picking BPA did work out very well.

Really and to date where would Ted Thompson be as a NFL GM and no Aaron Rodgers?

I hear a sink faucet dripping.

The one time? Come on Woody, that's pure foolishness and you know it.

http://ambulancedriverfiles.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/46/2010/05/defending.jpg

I will grant that Irving was a great player though. He physically dominated corners and got away with physically abusing them.

As Zool pointed out, he wasn't very fond of the 'straight and narrow' but it's interesting to read his legal troubles. A line from his first brush with the law: "When arrested he was lying on the floor covered in cocaine with multiple strippers performing sexual acts upon him". Not sure that makes him an asshole! :whaa:
He undoubtedly like to party, but it seems he was a pretty slippery guy. I think he ended up with only one conviction, from the initial incident?

[Patler]

Yea I've been saying this for how long? I mean its common sense really.


I'm sure Green Bay is a great place to grow up but no one wants to live in a small town with shitty weather while in the prime of their young life.


Well considering you can make millions of dollars else where....


Green Bay is obviously a great place because once players come here they love it. I'm just stating as far as FA destinations we were always be at the bottom of the list for most players.

I agree with all of that, and it also explains a lot of what TT says and what we see happen with FAs and Green Bay.

TT often has said the team does pursue free agents every year, yet we seldom see any signed. Since TT is loathe to overpay an outside FA, even if he makes competitive offers, they don't come to GB. We have seen numerous times when even middle range and lower FA's have gone to visit one team, acknowledge that GB was scheduled for a visit, but sign without ever going there. I don't think it is a coincidence that GB always seems to be their last visit.

Sure, a player doesn't have to live year around in GB, but he does have to live there for the better part of 6 months. While football consumes a great part of their time, they have evenings and off days throughout that time. Even if they aren't looking for the fast-track nightlife, their options in GB are limited. How many options do they have for a nice low-key evening? How many good places are there to eat compared to cities that are much larger? Shopping? Entertainment? For those who are married and have a wife or kids to go home to it's one thing, for an unmarried guy in his 20's it is quite different. How does he spend his free time?

Saying that the team looks for "Packer people" isn't snobbishness. It is a practical approach to looking for players and employees who are comfortable in a quiet midwest atmosphere. A young player looking for a good place to raise his growing family, a guy like Ryan Pickett, may chose GB over other options, especially if he is also one who enjoys fishing, hunting and other activities easily available in GB. An older veteran who knows the end of his career is only a few years off may chose GB because they want the chance of playoffs every year. But GB isn't the only place to do that.

Many criticize TT for not signing any of the many older vets who sign quite cheaply and serve as emergency fill ins. I'm not sure how easy it is for him to do that. If a 10+ year vet knows he won't get much more than a million or so from anyone, but has his option of going to SF, Seattle, Denver or Green Bay, why would he pick GB? Only something directly related to his opportunity to play. All being equal, he is likely to go somewhere else.

This is not a knock against GB, just a recognition of the fact that the atmosphere of a very small town area in the northern midwest region is not one that is appealing to very many of the typical pro athlete personalities. For some it is, but not too many.

[Patler]

99% of the players, all things being equal, would rather go to south florida, the west or east coast, maybe chicago. All things aren't equal. Most of the comments about not wanting to go to GB go back to the times when we sucked. I think that GB post 1992 is a far more inviting place than pre 1992.

GB made a giant leap forward under Bob Harlan in making the facilities an inviting place for players, and they continue to make improvements. But other teams are doing the same. While it will win them points from FAs when compared to some teams, they are not head and shoulders above everyone in that regard. The good thing is that they will not lose players just because their facilities are bad, as I believe they did at one time.

[Zool]

The one time? Come on Woody, that's pure foolishness and you know it.

I will grant that Irving was a great player though. He physically dominated corners and got away with physically abusing them.

As Zool pointed out, he wasn't very fond of the 'straight and narrow' but it's interesting to read his legal troubles. A line from his first brush with the law: "When arrested he was lying on the floor covered in cocaine with multiple strippers performing sexual acts upon him". Not sure that makes him an asshole! :whaa:
He undoubtedly like to party, but it seems he was a pretty slippery guy. I think he ended up with only one conviction, from the initial incident?

It's the multiple sexual assault charges that I'm speaking to. Where there's smoke, there's fire. Asshole. Also he's very hard to watch on NFLN.

[Guiness]

It's the multiple sexual assault charges that I'm speaking to. Where there's smoke, there's fire. Asshole. Also he's very hard to watch on NFLN.

Don't know what to make of the sexual assault charges. The cheerleader that brought charges was convicted of perjury.There was another one or two incidents but nothing ever came of them. When I read about him he reminds me of Roberto Alomar when he was in Toronto - young rich athlete with a sense of entitlement, the guy who, when he gets in trouble, says "do you know who I am?". So ya, asshole.

He was an absolute tool on NFLN. He obviously doesn't have that little switch in his head that tells him was is acceptable and what isn't - that little comment about Romo's grandmother's dalliances with slave brothers might've been something he joked with him about, but some kind of stupid to say it on air!

[MadScientist]

They signed Peppers, and that guy from MN this year, and they generally don't have too much of a problem re-signing their own FA's. So if they want a guy they can get him. It may be a little tougher sell, but not prohibitively so. In the 80's, when the recent history was pathetic loosing and the facilities were not first rate, Green Bay was a very tough sell.

These days the lack of FA's is mostly due to long term considerations coming from TT. First there's how the contract will play with the rest of the roster (does it leave room for extending our own FA's and will it create higher contract expectations). Second, how will it affect comp picks. Since there are some known losses that will generate comp picks, a FA signing is almost a trade of a pick for a player. One year of an older vet that costs a 4th or 5th round pick won't happen here.

[Brandon494]

Lmao on that guy from Min? We can't get a guy if we want him....certain things have to line up right. Woodson doesn't become a Packer if another team offers him anything close to what we did.

[Tony Oday]

We dont sign UFA so who cares if they like it in GB? ;)

[MadScientist]

Lmao on that guy from Min? We can't get a guy if we want him....certain things have to line up right. Woodson doesn't become a Packer if another team offers him anything close to what we did.

On the flip side Woodson has said how much he liked his time in GB, so if somebody is hesitant about GB, Woodson's accounts may make them think twice about rejecting Green Bay.

[Patler]

On the flip side Woodson has said how much he liked his time in GB, so if somebody is hesitant about GB, Woodson's accounts may make them think twice about rejecting Green Bay.

Woodson is proof of the argument that FAs are hesitant to come to GB. He has admitted that he did not want to come to GB at all, and even let it affect his attitude the first year. He said it was the only opportunity he had for continuing to play corner and receive a salary he felt was fair. Sure he liked the football atmosphere after experiencing it, but really hasn't talked up anything other than that.

[oldbutnotdeadyet]

Actually, Green Bay grows on a person, especially if they like fishin and huntin. If, instead, they like coke, hookers, and big money endorsements, not so much...

Where was I going with this??

[Patler]

They signed Peppers, and that guy from MN this year, and they generally don't have too much of a problem re-signing their own FA's. So if they want a guy they can get him. It may be a little tougher sell, but not prohibitively so. In the 80's, when the recent history was pathetic loosing and the facilities were not first rate, Green Bay was a very tough sell.

These days the lack of FA's is mostly due to long term considerations coming from TT. First there's how the contract will play with the rest of the roster (does it leave room for extending our own FA's and will it create higher contract expectations). Second, how will it affect comp picks. Since there are some known losses that will generate comp picks, a FA signing is almost a trade of a pick for a player. One year of an older vet that costs a 4th or 5th round pick won't happen here.

GB was a great landing spot for Peppers. It gives him one last hurrah for a Super Bowl, and is within decent travel distance from his residence north of Chicago. Throw in what seems to be a very generous financial package from the Packers, and it was probably an easy decision for him.

TT insists that they do pursue FAs every year, yet they rarely sign anyone. We know he is very selective about overpaying anyone new, so the only logical conclusion is that all being equal, GB is a tough sell to a free agent.

By and large, the Packers pay their own FAs quite well. These are people who, like Woodson, learned to appreciate the football side of GB, and learned to deal with the rest of it. Good pay, comfortable in their role, an easier sell than an outside FA. But that is exactly why TT's emphasis is where it is. It is easier to re-sign his own guys than to lure in someone new, and in this case "easier" might mean cheaper even when the player is seemingly overpaid like Brad Jones.

Don't overlook the fact that there are frequent examples of players who seem to be anxious to get out of Green Bay, regardless of what they say. Walker, McKenzie, Wahle (even apart from his prohibitive bonus that year), Sharper (who absolutely refused to even discuss any contract changes with the Packers, Longwell, Wells, Jennings and even Jenkins seemed more than happy to leave. Most talked about it a year or two in advance.

[red]

Its obviously a factor. Woodson is proof you can spend enough to overcome it. But if a player has options, it is probably a point in favor of the bigger city.

Having regularly secured good players in FA and continued success, plus Rodgers and a Super Bowl winning coach are pretty good selling points. From White, Santana Dotson, Seth Joyner, Al Harris (trade plus contract extensions), Woodson, Pickett and Peppers, its clear you can come to Green Bay and do well. If you secure one of those guys every few years, the story you can sell to a prospect is pretty positive.

and the woodson episode shows just how much of a problem it is imo

no one else wanted him, he was next to done, yet we still had to give him a top market deal for him to come here

luckily he broke out of his injury funk and was worth every penny for us, but at the time, that deal was pretty insane

[smuggler]

He had other offers. We just offered to pay him like an elitevor near-elite player and no one else did.

[Rastak]

He had other offers. We just offered to pay him like an elitevor near-elite player and no one else did.

Plus I think other teams wanted him as a safety and GB said he would be a CB which is what he wanted, if memory serves me.

[red]

if you're a black kid that grew up in the south (where a lot of good football players are coming from now), its a massive culture shock to go to green bay.

when i was young, my folks moved me from wisconsin to arkansas. the only black people i had ever seen in my life were packers and brewers, then all of a sudden half my school is black. that was a bit odd at first

then the weather sucked, it was always fucking muggy and hot, even in the winters

i couldn't understand anything that anybody said,white or black

the food and culture was all completely different. it was like living on another planet

now if i had tons of money, was older, and had a choice, i wouldn't have moved there, i would have moved someplace that was a little bit more like what i was use to

in green bay, its cold 7 months out of the year, its muggy and hot as shit for 2 months out of the year, that leaves 3 months out of the year when its pleasant

its very white, even still today. its not as totally white as it was in the 70's and 80's, but its still mostly white. the last time i was in green bay,i saw 3 black people. one was eddie lacy, one was edgar bennett, and one was an old guy in his 60's that i starred at for awhile trying to figure out when he must have played for the packers. a young black kid who has grown up around his own kind is gonna feel way out of place in GB. just like a white kid would feel out of place at grambling. a southern black kid going to chicago, detroit, new york or the like would feel a little less culture shock because those huge towns at least have lots of other black people around. not so in green bay

and really, for any young rich kid, there isn't much to do if you don't like hunting or fishing. you don't have all kinds of big clubs where you can get all kinds of tail. there's no places where you can drive you're fancy fast ass cars because the winters destroy the roads which then destroy anything with 4 wheels in the spring

if milwaukee was a bit closed to GB and you could convince you the players that they could live 15 minutes from the team, and 15 minutes from a big city with all the fun, then things might be completely different

[red]

He had other offers. We just offered to pay him like an elitevor near-elite player and no one else did.

this is from charles own mouth, from his wiki page


On April 26, 2006, Woodson and the Green Bay Packers reached a 7-year contract agreement that could be worth as much as $52.7 million with bonuses and incentives. He earned $10.5 million in the first year of the deal and $18 million over the first three years. He will receive a $3 million bonus if he is selected to the Pro Bowl in two of the first three years of the contract.[17] Woodson has stated that at the time of the contract he "did not want to come to Green Bay" due to a perception that the city is less than cosmopolitan, but was forced to do so because the Packers were the only team to offer him a contract. The cornerback has since lauded the Packers organization, Mike McCarthy, and the people of the State of Wisconsin for having faith in him, and has declared that "it was truly a blessing coming to Green Bay."

[red]

GB was a great landing spot for Peppers. It gives him one last hurrah for a Super Bowl, and is within decent travel distance from his residence north of Chicago. Throw in what seems to be a very generous financial package from the Packers, and it was probably an easy decision for him.

TT insists that they do pursue FAs every year, yet they rarely sign anyone. We know he is very selective about overpaying anyone new, so the only logical conclusion is that all being equal, GB is a tough sell to a free agent.

By and large, the Packers pay their own FAs quite well. These are people who, like Woodson, learned to appreciate the football side of GB, and learned to deal with the rest of it. Good pay, comfortable in their role, an easier sell than an outside FA. But that is exactly why TT's emphasis is where it is. It is easier to re-sign his own guys than to lure in someone new, and in this case "easier" might mean cheaper even when the player is seemingly overpaid like Brad Jones.

Don't overlook the fact that there are frequent examples of players who seem to be anxious to get out of Green Bay, regardless of what they say. Walker, McKenzie, Wahle (even apart from his prohibitive bonus that year), Sharper (who absolutely refused to even discuss any contract changes with the Packers, Longwell, Wells, Jennings and even Jenkins seemed more than happy to leave. Most talked about it a year or two in advance.

i think peppers probably came running to green bay more then green bay running to him. peppers was pissed when the bears cut him, and what better way to stick it to the bears and prove they were wrong, then going to their most hated rival and the one team that seems to have the bears number every year

i think if peppers has anything at all left in the tank, its gonna come out in the two games we play against chicago this year, and those will be monster games by him. and i wouldn't be shocked if we saw very little from him the rest of the year

[SMBASS]

i think if peppers has anything at all left in the tank, its gonna come out in the two games we play against chicago this year, and those will be monster games by him. and i wouldn't be shocked if we saw very little from him the rest of the year

I don't know red. I have a feeling that Peppers is going to create some chaos in quite a few games this year. It will be interesting to see how this plays out and how opposing offences approach blocking him and CMIII. (Especially if we can get any kind of push on the inside.) I guess I just think he has a little more left in the tank and last year was simply a down/anomaly year for various reasons. Shoot, even the couple of, "down" years he's had weren't bad at all compared to other players. Just not up to his normal standards. I realize this is not the same Peppers from 4 or 5 years ago but something tells me he's going to play some inspired ball this year.

[woodbuck27]

if you're a black kid that grew up in the south (where a lot of good football players are coming from now), its a massive culture shock to go to green bay.

when i was young, my folks moved me from wisconsin to arkansas. the only black people i had ever seen in my life were packers and brewers, then all of a sudden half my school is black. that was a bit odd at first

then the weather sucked, it was always fucking muggy and hot, even in the winters

i couldn't understand anything that anybody said,white or black

the food and culture was all completely different. it was like living on another planet

now if i had tons of money, was older, and had a choice, i wouldn't have moved there, i would have moved someplace that was a little bit more like what i was use to

in green bay, its cold 7 months out of the year, its muggy and hot as shit for 2 months out of the year, that leaves 3 months out of the year when its pleasant

its very white, even still today. its not as totally white as it was in the 70's and 80's, but its still mostly white. the last time i was in green bay,i saw 3 black people. one was eddie lacy, one was edgar bennett, and one was an old guy in his 60's that i starred at for awhile trying to figure out when he must have played for the packers. a young black kid who has grown up around his own kind is gonna feel way out of place in GB. just like a white kid would feel out of place at grambling. a southern black kid going to chicago, detroit, new york or the like would feel a little less culture shock because those huge towns at least have lots of other black people around. not so in green bay

and really, for any young rich kid, there isn't much to do if you don't like hunting or fishing. you don't have all kinds of big clubs where you can get all kinds of tail. there's no places where you can drive you're fancy fast ass cars because the winters destroy the roads which then destroy anything with 4 wheels in the spring

if milwaukee was a bit closed to GB and you could convince you the players that they could live 15 minutes from the team, and 15 minutes from a big city with all the fun, then things might be completely different

A down to earth and real observation.

How's your citrullus lanatus "watermelon" in the summer?

[woodbuck27]

i think peppers probably came running to green bay more then green bay running to him. peppers was pissed when the bears cut him, and what better way to stick it to the bears and prove they were wrong, then going to their most hated rival and the one team that seems to have the bears number every year

i think if peppers has anything at all left in the tank, its gonna come out in the two games we play against chicago this year, and those will be monster games by him. and i wouldn't be shocked if we saw very little from him the rest of the year

Alot of Packer Nation is counting on you being incorrectly pessimistic here red. :-)

[Pugger]

He had other offers. We just offered to pay him like an elitevor near-elite player and no one else did.

If memory serves the only other team interested was Tampa but they wanted to move him to safety and we told him he'd stay at corner.

[Smeefers]

Woodson is proof of the argument that FAs are hesitant to come to GB. He has admitted that he did not want to come to GB at all, and even let it affect his attitude the first year. He said it was the only opportunity he had for continuing to play corner and receive a salary he felt was fair. Sure he liked the football atmosphere after experiencing it, but really hasn't talked up anything other than that.

No, Woodson is proof that some free agents are hesitant to come to GB. Peppers is proof that Free Agents really want to come to GB.

False logic.

[Smeefers]

if you're a black kid that grew up in the south (where a lot of good football players are coming from now), its a massive culture shock to go to green bay.

when i was young, my folks moved me from wisconsin to arkansas. the only black people i had ever seen in my life were packers and brewers, then all of a sudden half my school is black. that was a bit odd at first

then the weather sucked, it was always fucking muggy and hot, even in the winters

i couldn't understand anything that anybody said,white or black

the food and culture was all completely different. it was like living on another planet

now if i had tons of money, was older, and had a choice, i wouldn't have moved there, i would have moved someplace that was a little bit more like what i was use to

in green bay, its cold 7 months out of the year, its muggy and hot as shit for 2 months out of the year, that leaves 3 months out of the year when its pleasant

its very white, even still today. its not as totally white as it was in the 70's and 80's, but its still mostly white. the last time i was in green bay,i saw 3 black people. one was eddie lacy, one was edgar bennett, and one was an old guy in his 60's that i starred at for awhile trying to figure out when he must have played for the packers. a young black kid who has grown up around his own kind is gonna feel way out of place in GB. just like a white kid would feel out of place at grambling. a southern black kid going to chicago, detroit, new york or the like would feel a little less culture shock because those huge towns at least have lots of other black people around. not so in green bay

and really, for any young rich kid, there isn't much to do if you don't like hunting or fishing. you don't have all kinds of big clubs where you can get all kinds of tail. there's no places where you can drive you're fancy fast ass cars because the winters destroy the roads which then destroy anything with 4 wheels in the spring

if milwaukee was a bit closed to GB and you could convince you the players that they could live 15 minutes from the team, and 15 minutes from a big city with all the fun, then things might be completely different

Let me start off by saying that I totally agree with your demographics assessment. That surely plays a role in FA's wanting to come to GB.

What I have an issue with is the "only black guys I see are packers" statement. That's basically not true. I played at Danz and pickle park when I was a kid and that was a cauldron of different races. I bounced in GB for a while and the clientele was a good 10 - 15% minority. I lived in the NW section of the city off Broadway for a while and there were plenty of cute little latino and african kids playing at Howard Elementary. There's a stigma in GB that it's a white only town and perpetuating it isn't helping anyone.

[Bretsky]

I think players consider other locations more appealing
With that being said

We don't get many visits because Agents want to talk Numbers before sending their clients to Green Bay

In general TT...good or bad...is a bargain shopper and is not going to overpay...even if it's for the right player

The numbers don't fit so the player does not visit.

[Patler]

No, Woodson is proof that some free agents are hesitant to come to GB. Peppers is proof that Free Agents really want to come to GB.

False logic.

Did I say ALL free agents? False assumption on your part.

But, the facts are:
- Woodson said that he did not want to come to GB at all, and admitted that he moped about it his first year in GB
- TT says they really do pursue FAs every year, but are quiet about it.
- No FA of significance signed since Woodson, until Peppers this year.
- Before Woodson, the most significant FA to come was Pickett, who admitted his wife insisted on GB for the family.
- They haven't even signed any marginally significant FAs since the likes of Chiller.
- In 10 seasons they have had three FAs of significance; Pickett, who's wife insisted; Woodson, who had no other option and now Peppers, who got a very good contract and could almost commute from his current home.
- Yet TT who seems as honest as they come, tells us they go after FA's every year.
- Throw in the several occurrences of FAs scheduling GB last, and not even bothering to check it out before signing elsewhere. Why isn't GB ever first, (except for Peppers, apparently; and Pickett way back when) or at least checked out before the committ?

Looks to me like GB is a tough sell, except in the unique situations like with Pickett, Woodson and maybe Peppers.

[Patler]

Regard GB's ethnicity, this is what the city has put out:

http://greenbaywi.gov/EconomicDevelopment/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Ageeth.bmp

[Just Jeff]

False assumption on your part.

But, the facts are:
- TT says they really do pursue FAs every year, but are quiet about it.
- Yet TT who seems as honest as they come, tells us they go after FA's every year.


I think that this may be closer to a false assumption. Not sure that just cause TT says it, that its true. The old actions speak louder than words may apply.

[Patler]

I think that this may be closer to a false assumption. Not sure that just cause TT says it, that its true. The old actions speak louder than words may apply.

I wrote he "seems as honest as they come" from having listened to him struggle to answer questions when he doesn't want to say something, but can not bring himself to be less than totally honest. I have often observed him refuse to answer rather than lead people on in situations that he easily could and be done with it. Just the opposite of Wolf, who often seemed willing to say whatever would serve him best at the time. I wrote it because people who know him and deal with him attributed that quality to him.

Yet TT offered the statement about FAs when he didn't have to, making it more likely true.

[Just Jeff]

I wrote he "seems as honest as they come" from having listened to him struggle to answer questions when he doesn't want to say something, but can not bring himself to be less than totally honest. I have often observed him refuse to answer rather than lead people on in situation that he easily could. Just the opposite of Wolf, who often seemed willing to say whatever would serve him best at the time. I wrote it because people who know him and deal with him attributed that quality to him.

Yet TT offered the statement about FAs when he didn't have to, making it more likely true.
I go after hot blondes EVERY nite. I come away from it smelling like an appletini, having a wet shirt, and am perceived as funny by the women within earshot.

[pbmax]

No, Woodson is proof that some free agents are hesitant to come to GB. Peppers is proof that Free Agents really want to come to GB.

False logic.

I think the number of cancelled visits and other non-interest each year speak to the percentages. I think Peppers is more the exception.

If the GM were not Ted, and was willing to bump his price up past his value a bit (or agree to general contract terms before the visit) then you would see more action. But I think the threshold is higher. If Kevin Greene's wife wants to leave GB and he does, it certainly can happen to players.

[red]

Regard GB's ethnicity, this is what the city has put out:

http://greenbaywi.gov/EconomicDevelopment/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Ageeth.bmp

what does 5, 10 and 15 min mean?

is that 5, 10, and 15 minutes from the center of town or something?

if i'm reading it right, its around 2-3% black and supports what i was saying. so theres just over 4,000 black folks living in the greater green bay area, an area with 200,000 people

yeah,a black person is gonna feel a wee bit out of place

[Smeefers]

Did I say ALL free agents? False assumption on your part.

But, the facts are:
- Woodson said that he did not want to come to GB at all, and admitted that he moped about it his first year in GB
- TT says they really do pursue FAs every year, but are quiet about it.
- No FA of significance signed since Woodson, until Peppers this year.
- Before Woodson, the most significant FA to come was Pickett, who admitted his wife insisted on GB for the family.
- They haven't even signed any marginally significant FAs since the likes of Chiller.
- In 10 seasons they have had three FAs of significance; Pickett, who's wife insisted; Woodson, who had no other option and now Peppers, who got a very good contract and could almost commute from his current home.
- Yet TT who seems as honest as they come, tells us they go after FA's every year.
- Throw in the several occurrences of FAs scheduling GB last, and not even bothering to check it out before signing elsewhere. Why isn't GB ever first, (except for Peppers, apparently; and Pickett way back when) or at least checked out before the committ?

Looks to me like GB is a tough sell, except in the unique situations like with Pickett, Woodson and maybe Peppers.

You implied in your statement that a majority of free agents are hesitant to come to GB. My assumption was completely valid.

as for the facts,

Or TT really does just want to build this team through the draft because that's where the cheapest talent is and it allows him room to sign his home grown talent? As for why people schedule GB last, could it have to do anything at all with the fact that TT doesn't guarantee prices before a visit? It's something like that right? I can't remember exactly.

Anyway, I think it's very hard to draw this line in the sand that you can't get FA's in GB because of the weather and city size. Are you telling me that if we outbid someone on just about any player out there, that they wouldn't come to GB because it's cold and small? Sure, there's a couple guys who'd turn down more money, but not many. I'm willing to bet we don't get big name free agents because TT isn't willing to over pay for them.

Before the talk was "all things considered equal," but if we're going to wade out of the hypothetical and into reality, that's my stand and I'm sticking to it.

[Smeefers]

what does 5, 10 and 15 min mean?

is that 5, 10, and 15 minutes from the center of town or something?

if i'm reading it right, its around 2-3% black and supports what i was saying. so theres just over 4,000 black folks living in the greater green bay area, an area with 200,000 people

yeah,a black person is gonna feel a wee bit out of place

Lol, and I feel it supports what I was saying, that there's a 15% minority population in GB. One of the few times I think we're both right.

[Bretsky]

I think the number of cancelled visits and other non-interest each year speak to the percentages. I think Peppers is more the exception.

If the GM were not Ted, and was willing to bump his price up past his value a bit (or agree to general contract terms before the visit) then you would see more action. But I think the threshold is higher. If Kevin Greene's wife wants to leave GB and he does, it certainly can happen to players.

I agree it's harder to get FA's to come to GB

But I think the bold part is just as much the reason we don't get them

[red]

Lol, and I feel it supports what I was saying, that there's a 15% minority population in GB. One of the few times I think we're both right.

i don't think all minorities are the same, a black guy living around a bunch of asians or mexicans isn't going to feel like he fits right in either

i'm looking at, the more people of your same race in the area, the more comfortable you'll be. asian/ hispanic/indian cultures are gonna be just as different from the culture a black kid is use to as the white culture is to him

[Just Jeff]

It really doesn't matter what color you are, when you have money most of the differences go away. In the blue color circles there is a lot more resentment than amongst the 1%. I happen to have been fortunated to get to know Sherm Lewis a little over the years. He has no idea that he is black.

[Brandon494]

It really doesn't matter what color you are, when you have money most of the differences go away. In the blue color circles there is a lot more resentment than amongst the 1%. I happen to have been fortunated to get to know Sherm Lewis a little over the years. He has no idea that he is black.

He had no idea he is black? :roll: You know not all black people are raised in the ghetto, just because someone talks with correct grammar doesn't mean they act "white".


Of course the 1 percentages don't have resentment when they make up 35% of the USA wealth while the bottom 50% of Americans make up 2.5% and then 50-90% of Americans make up 26%. Think about that for a second...the top %1 makes more then the bottom 90% of the US combined.

[Patler]

You implied in your statement that a majority of free agents are hesitant to come to GB. My assumption was completely valid.

Not that it matters, but if you recognized the point of my argument being less than "all" why did reply to me with an unequivocal "No" and draw a distinction to and emphasize "some" free agents? Your reply came across to me like a contrast of your "some" and what you assumed from me to be "all". Oh well...on to the substance of our discussion: :-)



Or TT really does just want to build this team through the draft because that's where the cheapest talent is and it allows him room to sign his home grown talent? As for why people schedule GB last, could it have to do anything at all with the fact that TT doesn't guarantee prices before a visit? It's something like that right? I can't remember exactly.

I think it is likely that TT recognizes the difficulty in getting FAs to GB without overpaying them, and the havoc to the rest of the roster if you have very many that are overpaid. I think he realizes that for the situation in GB, relying on more than a random FA now and then simply won't work. I don't think he would ever be one to dive into it in a big way, but I do think he would use it more than he has if he didn't have to overcome a general reluctance by many to come to GB.


Anyway, I think it's very hard to draw this line in the sand that you can't get FA's in GB because of the weather and city size. Are you telling me that if we outbid someone on just about any player out there, that they wouldn't come to GB because it's cold and small? Sure, there's a couple guys who'd turn down more money, but not many. I'm willing to bet we don't get big name free agents because TT isn't willing to over pay for them.

Before the talk was "all things considered equal," but if we're going to wade out of the hypothetical and into reality, that's my stand and I'm sticking to it.

I don't think anyone is drawing a line in the sand. There will always be some FAs who would willingly come to GB, but I think most will require some convincing, if they indeed have options. When a committed professional player and astute business man like Charles Woodson had an admitted prejudice against GB, I have to believe the feeling is common among FAs. All FAs? Of course not, but I do think the Packers have an uphill battle to get FAs on any kind of consistent basis.

It's sad that it seems a decent offer from anyone else might have kept Woodson from coming to GB. The glow from Reggie White's signing didn't last long, nor will the story relayed by Wodson.

[Just Jeff]

He had no idea he is black? :roll: You know not all black people are raised in the ghetto, just because someone talks with correct grammar doesn't mean they act "white".


Of course the 1 percentages don't have resentment when they make up 35% of the USA wealth while the bottom 50% of Americans make up 2.5% and then 50-90% of Americans make up 26%. Think about that for a second...the top %1 makes more then the bottom 90% of the US combined.

Most NFL free agents are in the 1%

[pbmax]

Most NFL free agents are in the 1%

So according to Woodson, the 1% theory of not noticing about differences is not true all the time.

And given who the Packers don't get visits from, I think this holds true more often than a player like Peppers signs.

[mraynrand]

Think about that for a second...the top %1 makes more then the bottom 90% of the US combined.

So what? The top 1% develop and provide most of the stuff the lower 90% want/need/benefit from and can't make themselves - like iPhones, cars, planes, computers, fuel, loans, entitlements, entertainment, etc. etc. They get rich making all the stuff people love. thank you, I say.

[esoxx]

He had no idea he is black? :roll: You know not all black people are raised in the ghetto, just because someone talks with correct grammar doesn't mean they act "white".


Of course the 1 percentages don't have resentment when they make up 35% of the USA wealth while the bottom 50% of Americans make up 2.5% and then 50-90% of Americans make up 26%. Think about that for a second...the top %1 makes more then the bottom 90% of the US combined.

Take it to FYI

[esoxx]

I think we're all missing a very simple point here. Green Bay is still in play if you have a QB. We've been blessed with great QB play the last 22 years.

Huge drawing card that you can WIN here (and get paid handsomely of course). Peppers isn't signing with MN, all things being equal, he wants to win meaning SB.

As soon as the dynamic changes where we don't have one of the best QB's in the league, all bets are off.

[pbmax]

I think we're all missing a very simple point here. Green Bay is still in play if you have a QB. We've been blessed with great QB play the last 22 years.

Huge drawing card that you can WIN here (and get paid handsomely of course). Peppers isn't signing with MN, all things being equal, he wants to win meaning SB.

As soon as the dynamic changes where we don't have one of the best QB's in the league, all bets are off.

Agree. A good GB team with an All Pro QB is still a better draw than Jacksonville on a lot of levels (though the income tax issue helps Jax). But the city itself will break a lot of ties, sometimes to the team's detriment.

[Rutnstrut]

I don't buy the not wanting to come to GB excuse. Ii's the GM's damn job to make them want to come to GB. Maybe one reason TT prefers to build through the draft, is because he lacks the people skills to schmooze these guys that supposedly don't want to go there. Money can be had anywhere by these guys, the opportunity to win not so much. If given the choice of money and the chance to win in GB I think most would tolerate the lack of night life for a while.

[Patler]

I have had business relationships with pro athletes for 25 years. It really is a job to them. They make their decisions on where to go for the same reasons we do, some to the highest bidder, some because they hit it off with the boss, some because it is a place they want to live and raise their families and the job will be OK. "winning" is a factor for some, but not huge for a lot of the younger guys. They figure the team will build with them.

Winning the championship of their sport becomes a big factor for some of the old guys who haven't won one. They are financially set and know they have only a few years left. Some will look for the spot where they can contribute to a championship. For most of the young guys, not so much.

[Fritz]

You people are getting all serious and sociological, when the truth is much simpler.

Green Bay women, or California/Florida/Dallas/Washington women?

There's an equation to be had somewhere in all this - size of contract plus hotness of women times the number of nightclubs equals likelihood of signing.

[red]

I have had business relationships with pro athletes for 25 years. It really is a job to them. They make their decisions on where to go for the same reasons we do, some to the highest bidder, some because they hit it off with the boss, some because it is a place they want to live and raise their families and the job will be OK. "winning" is a factor for some, but not huge for a lot of the younger guys. They figure the team will build with them.

Winning the championship of their sport becomes a big factor for some of the old guys who haven't won one. They are financially set and know they have only a few years left. Some will look for the spot where they can contribute to a championship. For most of the young guys, not so much.

DING DING DING

fans care about winning a whole hell of a lot more then the players do. the players number one concern (and i don't blame them for it one bit) should be making as much as possible for as long as they can

coming to green bay because they can win and be on a good team, probably means very little to most younger player. like you said,its maybe the older guys who have made their money who want to win before they are done. unfortunately, those are the types of guys (old) that TT usually shies away from

plus it can't help that free agency begins in the middle of our winter, everything is dead, the lakes and rivers are frozen solid, its below zero still and there's still 4 feet of snow on the ground. if free agency opened after the draft, maybe we would have a better shot at luring some guys here

[red]

You people are getting all serious and sociological, when the truth is much simpler.

Green Bay women, or California/Florida/Dallas/Washington women?

There's an equation to be had somewhere in all this - size of contract plus hotness of women times the number of nightclubs equals likelihood of signing.

size of area population * (percentage of hot woman in population- how many of those hot women are married with kids) * annual salary / annual snow fall

so for green bay we have

200,000*(.02)* 2,000,000 / 51.4 inches = 155,642,023

now for a place like chicago, where the percentage of hot women is less, but there's a larger population and more single chicks

9,500,000* (.04)* 2,000,000 / 31.1inches of snow = 24,437,299,035

as you can see by this simple formula, a player who is offered the same amount of money from the bears and packers is 157 times more to go to chicago, based of the increase in quality tail and less snow fall

you're all welcome

[pbmax]

Well, you can't argue with an algorithm.

I would say that I am not sure winning or success doesn't matter, but younger players will be optimistic about the future and have other, at least equal concerns about their careers. The more settled they are, the likelier winning moves to the top of the list.

[Pugger]

Agree. A good GB team with an All Pro QB is still a better draw than Jacksonville on a lot of levels (though the income tax issue helps Jax). But the city itself will break a lot of ties, sometimes to the team's detriment.

Having an All Pro QB is a draw but often a team has a good chunk of their cap in that QB so the amount of money you can offer a FA is limited. There are separate ways of going about it. GB and Denver have 2 of the top QBs in the business today but the donkeys spent a ton in FA. I suspect they did because their QB is near the end while ours is in his prime. They are going all in this year. I have a strong feeling Manning will implode this season a lot like Favre did in his last year in MN.

[woodbuck27]

I think we're all missing a very simple point here. Green Bay is still in play if you have a QB. We've been blessed with great QB play the last 22 years.

Huge drawing card that you can WIN here (and get paid handsomely of course). Peppers isn't signing with MN, all things being equal, he wants to win meaning SB.

As soon as the dynamic changes where we don't have one of the best QB's in the league, all bets are off.

Yes.

[woodbuck27]

Having an All Pro QB is a draw but often a team has a good chunk of their cap in that QB so the amount of money you can offer a FA is limited. There are separate ways of going about it. GB and Denver have 2 of the top QBs in the business today but the donkeys spent a ton in FA. I suspect they did because their QB is near the end while ours is in his prime. They are going all in this year. I have a strong feeling Manning will implode this season a lot like Favre did in his last year in MN.

The pressure on Peyton Manning to get to and win the Super Bowl has to be huge.

Having posted that I'll add that he's a pretty cool and funny fella and that helps offset pressure. He has a fantastic cast around him and as long as he's protected from the SACK he'll be close in 2014 if not get back to the show.

[Just Jeff]

The pressure on Peyton Manning to get to and win the Super Bowl has to be huge.

Having posted that I'll add that he's a pretty cool and funny fella and that helps offset pressure. He has a fantastic cast around him and as long as he's protected from the SACK he'll be close in 2014 if not get back to the show.

I'm not sure that there is a level of implosion that Manning hasn't already achieved. "Omaha Omaha <ball bounces off head>"

[woodbuck27]

I'm not sure that there is a level of implosion that Manning hasn't already achieved. "Omaha Omaha <ball bounces off head>"

That whole skit was hilarious last season and brought me to a whole different level of respect for Peyton Manning.

I enjoy funny.

[Just Jeff]

That whole skit was hilarious last season and brought me to a whole different level of respect for Peyton Manning.

I enjoy funny.
I enjoy implosion and I hate Peyton Manning. Everyone thinks he's the best but I think he's no better then the 3rd best



































wait for it









































QB in






























his family.

[Zool]

While I do dislike Peyton and his complainy face, he's so much better than Eli I can't even explain.

[mraynrand]

Eli is the streak shooter, who is often total clutch. Manning is the consistent floor general who always mops up on all the dross, but sometimes wilts under pressure.