Help Me Understand...The New Defensive Line

[Fritz]

Okay, many of you know more than I do about the game itself. I can riff all day long on Drew Barrymore, or on my bloodhound nose for certain draft day stars, like Odell Thurman and Brian Brohm, but as for the game itself, I'm just, well, a fan.

So riddle me this: how do the new, young crop of defensive linemen (Worthy, Daniels, Boyd, Thornton) fit into the scheme of the defensive line? I understood the Datone Jones pick - last year the narrative was that MM and Capers wanted to get back to the "traditional" 3-4 DE,. and Jones was that guy - the tall, lanky, long-armed guy. Julius Peppers fits that, too.

But I thought that outside of that, what 3-4 DE's were supposed to do was to play two gaps, which meant staying in their lanes and occupying as many blockers as possible by being bull-strong and unmoveable (like Ryan Pickett could be sometimes). That was supposed to free up the linebackers to make the tackles, and was supposed to help maintain gap integrity.

But now the team has this plethora of quick, penetrating guys, none of whom seems to be, really, a nose tackle. And yet MM has I think used and talked about Boyd as a nose tackle, and now Thornton has been mentioned (see PB post on Thornton thread) as a possible 3-technique and nose tackle.

So how does the whole 3-4 scheme work when you now have a bunch of penetrating DT/DE types? Heck, MM even mentioned Raji as someone who would now be allowed to penetrate and not just hold blockers.

Does MM's desire for players to be able to slide into multiple roles signal a shift in the fundamental approach to the 3-4 that seemed to be in place during the 2010 SB run? There, it was the Pickett-Raji-Howard Green rotation of giant sloths eating blockers and Cullen Jenkins rushing inside on passing downs.

But now they all seem Cullen Jenkinsish.

Can anybody help me understand this?

[woodbuck27]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_cJejvBaNWow/TPb6WMH84BI/AAAAAAAAAVw/NsHpQnoauFw/s1600/Packer+Prayer.jpg

Understand?

Simply lean on prayer.

[Fritz]

I think he's just feeling pain in his hammy.

[woodbuck27]

Hey !!! Wist43 !!!


Here's Dom Capers "paint" to make up a competent DL for his "so deemed" 3-4 Defense.


Defensive Tackles:

** 76 Daniels, Mike DT ... 6-0 and 300 lbs 25 3 Iowa

** 98 Guion, Letroy DT... 6-4 and 315 lbs 26 7 Florida State


The BIG MEN ! The HEAD Of Dom Capers Snake?

** 64 Pennel, Mike DT ... 6-4 and 332 lbs 23 R Colorado State-Pueblo

** 90 Raji, B.J. DT ... 6-2 and 337 lbs 27 6 Boston College


The Defensive (Rush) Ends !?:

** 93 Boyd, Josh DE 6-3 310 24 2 Mississippi State

** 74 Gray, Carlos DE 6-2 313 21 R North Carolina State

** 95 Jones, Datone DE 6-4 285 23 2 UCLA

** 97 Robinson, Luther DE 6-3 301 23 R Miami

** 94 Thornton, Khyri DE 6-3 304 24 R Southern Mississippi

** 99 Worthy, Jerel DE 6-2 304 24 3 Michigan State


The Heavy Defensive Hybrides:

** 96 Neal, Mike DE/LB 6-3 285 26 5 Purdue

** 56 Peppers, Julius LB/DE 6-7 287 34 13 North Carolina



Looking at an NFCW Division that's getting tough/strong:


http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/depth-charts/nfl.aspx

Depth Charts of the NFCW TEAMS:



The NFCW Team Rosters:

The Seattle Seahawks Roster:

http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/rosters/nfl/sea/seattle-seahawks


The San Francisco Roster:

http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/rosters/nfl/sf/san-francisco-49ers


The Arizona Cardinals Roster:

http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/rosters/nfl/arz/arizona-cardinals


The ST. LOUIS RAMS Roster:

http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/rosters/nfl/stl/st-louis-rams

[HarveyWallbangers]

There has been a swift and mass movement in the NFL to a 3-4/4-3 hybrid scheme. It seems about half of the teams in the NFL have moved in this direction. It's clear from the last 2-3 drafts that the Packers are moving in a different direction with their DL scheme. Less two gap. I expect the Packers to play more 3-3-5, but Peppers and Neal give them the ability to drop one of their down linemen into coverage--more than most teams.

[red]

i'm with you fritz. i have no clue anymore what our d-line and lbers are suppose to be doing anymore. and judging by the up and down season the d had last year, i'm guessing alot of the players don't have a clue either

[pbmax]

The Packers have never played much two gap with Capers, if you can believe the coaches and I have not seen much, if any refutation of that fact.

Two gap is more than the 2-4 personnel or read and react. It means each of the 3, three or four lineman are responsible for each gap on either side of the player in front of them. They must maintain the ability to squeeze the hole on either side of their man while not abandoning the other.

The idea behind it is that with eight gaps to guard (A, B, C and D on either side of the ball) 4 players who could effectively 2 gap leave three front seven players free to do nothing but run to the ball. The screen shot below shows the gaps but has a one gap defense being played. In a seven man front, either the weak side safety or the end/OLB has the outside and the other is responsible for filling the weak side C gap.

http://espngrantland.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/4-3-under-tri.jpg?w=524

In practice, teams usually over 2 gap with 3 players max, leaving 2 gaps guarded by a player with single gap responsibility. In Fritz Shurmur's 4-3 Under, the weak side OLB was the guy who got a single gap and the freedom to run to the ball.

A traditional AFC static 3-4 does two gap all three lineman, but Capers hasn't called it much. In fact, when you see 2-4 in dime or nickel, he isn't two gapping at all. This used to be common in the AFC and the Steelers ran it until around 2000.

The real question with the lineman now is double teams. Capers needed Pickett to absorb double teams, not to 2 gap. To combat the double team, you have to not get washed out of the play and thereby create third gap right over your backside.

And that is the question that I think is yet unanswered. The smaller D lineman will one gap and occasionally be allowed to penetrate. But someone is still going to get double teamed. Raji seems to have landed the starting NT job. Who backs him up, and who plays lineman in jumbo packages are questions that won't get answered until camp.

Boyd, Guion, a resigned Jolly or Pickett would be candidates.

[Fritz]

The Packers have never played much two gap with Capers, if you can believe the coaches and I have not seen much, if any refutation of that fact.

Two gap is more than the 2-4 personnel or read and react. It means each of the 3, three or four lineman are responsible for each gap on either side of the player in front of them. They must maintain the ability to squeeze the hole on either side of their man while not abandoning the other.

The idea behind it is that with eight gaps to guard (A, B, C and D on either side of the ball) 4 players who could effectively 2 gap leave three front seven players free to do nothing but run to the ball. The screen shot below shows the gaps but has a one gap defense being played. In a seven man front, either the weak side safety or the end/OLB has the outside and the other is responsible for filling the weak side C gap.

http://espngrantland.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/4-3-under-tri.jpg?w=524

In practice, teams usually over 2 gap with 3 players max, leaving 2 gaps guarded by a player with single gap responsibility. In Fritz Shurmur's 4-3 Under, the weak side OLB was the guy who got a single gap and the freedom to run to the ball.

A traditional AFC static 3-4 does two gap all three lineman, but Capers hasn't called it much. In fact, when you see 2-4 in dime or nickel, he isn't two gapping at all. This used to be common in the AFC and the Steelers ran it until around 2000.

The real question with the lineman now is double teams. Capers needed Pickett to absorb double teams, not to 2 gap. To combat the double team, you have to not get washed out of the play and thereby create third gap right over your backside.

And that is the question that I think is yet unanswered. The smaller D lineman will one gap and occasionally be allowed to penetrate. But someone is still going to get double teamed. Raji seems to have landed the starting NT job. Who backs him up, and who plays lineman in jumbo packages are questions that won't get answered until camp.

Boyd, Guion, a resigned Jolly or Pickett would be candidates.


So dies it mean only the NT will most often by DT'd and must not penetrate? Or can Raji split a DT, or does it depend?

And has anyone any insight on this Mike Pennel from Colorado State Tech Truck Dtiving/Bible College? He seems nose tackle size.

And thanks for the help. All of youse guys.

[pbmax]

So dies it mean only the NT will most often by DT'd and must not penetrate? Or can Raji split a DT, or does it depend?

And has anyone any insight on this Mike Pennel from Colorado State Tech Truck Dtiving/Bible College? He seems nose tackle size.

And thanks for the help. All of youse guys.

Usually penetration is called by the defense prior to the snap. Packers call it a Jet technique. That is not to say Raji couldn't split a DT to get the ball and make a tackle, but he is not expected to rush up the field at the snap in most cases. So its not entirely dependent on the DT, no.

Remember the problems they had with Peterson in 2012? Half the defense was in the wrong gap in the first halves of those first two games (esp. Walden). Then players started to Jet up the field to try to stop Peterson and that put the D in even worse shape, geometrically and effectively speaking.

You could see this in action sometime during a live game. Raji will start bursting into the backfield and hitting the RB or QB and look like he is doing serious damage. But suddenly, the O adjusts and there are cutback runs in the middle of the D for big yardage. They just wait for the big guy to take himself out of the play.

[pbmax]

If I had to bet, I expect to see the same alignments this year, not a hybrid. But I expect mass substitutions in those sets. But I have read McCarthy wrong in the offseason before.

[mraynrand]

Well, lol... dunderdummy will take a pretty damn talented front seven - and puke up one of the worst defenses in the league.

Capers will misuse every guy TT gives him. Dunderdummy will just run the 2-4 99.999% of the time anyway, so it doesn't matter what talents linemen have or what down or distance you're dealing with: Capers will run the wrong alignment and put his players in the worst possible position for each of them, giving them the least possible chance to succeed.

As long as dunderdummy is our DC, defensive linemen don't matter.

[Bretsky]

Maybe Ted is not drafting players typical to the system DOM wants to run; just a thought

[pbmax]

Maybe Ted is not drafting players typical to the system DOM wants to run; just a thought

I think this is the basis of the problem. Mike has hired a DC whose system is best for vets. Mike was hired by a GM whose roster runs young. Its going to be a challenge to adjust. We probably have 20 threads about DC as DC prior to him coaching a single game. I don't remember this topic coming up.

I *think* Capers has run into this before. He and Belichick reportedly did not see eye to eye in New England during his stay there. This could have been a topic (Dom was DB coach).

If he gets it turned around, it would be quite a feather in his 60 year old rug, I mean cap.

[texaspackerbacker]

I said all last season and before that, it was stupid to have even one big fatty in there - little ability except to eat space, and Pickett and Raji didn't even do a good job of that. I was hoping for a more mobile D-Line will all three linemen at any given time having the ability to move, penetrate, and tackle - kinda like when the Cowboys had Jay Ratliff at NT.

It looks to me like the Packers are going that route - a base of: Raji on a short leash in rotation with Thornton or maybe Boyd at NT, with Daniels, and Jones at DE, in rotation with Boyd and Worthy. I would not expect them to go to a 4-3. I would, however, expect to see a lot of more pass rush oriented 3-4 with Peppers or Neal at DE, and one of the base DEs used at the Nose - as I recall Cullen Jenkins used to do in passing situations.

I like the direction this is going. I absolutely hated it with Pickett and Raji were on the field together. We seem to be stuck with Raji for at least another year, but hopefully he won't be quite so bad in his new role.

Picture a passing down with Daniels at NT, D. Jones and Neal at DE, Matthews and Peppers at OLB, Bradford and Hawk at ILB. Do we have a pass rush or what?

[Just Jeff]

Help me understand.... how our defense is defensible?

[woodbuck27]

So dies it mean only the NT will most often by DT'd and must not penetrate? Or can Raji split a DT, or does it depend?

And has anyone any insight on this Mike Pennel from Colorado State Tech Truck Dtiving/Bible College? He seems nose tackle size.

And thanks for the help. All of youse guys.

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/mike-pennel?id=2543574


Mike Pennel ...DT Colorado State-Pueblo

Grade 5.0

5.23 SEC; 23 REPS (Bench); 28.5 INCH Vert.; 102.0 INCH Broad Jump;

7.94 SEC 3-Cone Drill and 4.84 SEC. Shuttle

He may have some personality issues?

Weaknesses:

** Gets hung up on blocks too easily and can't split the double team.

Technique:

**Plays flat-footed. Not initially quick or sudden to shoot gaps or make plays behind the line of scrimmage.

** Plays with limited knee bend and tends to stand tall. Could stand to do a better job protecting his legs.

Concentration and Discipline:

** Did not dominate vs. lesser competition. Has been disciplined for not following rules and must prove committed.

Bottom Line:

A very large man or run-stuffing space-occupier with the large size to plug the middle or play on the outside *** in a traditional 3-4 front. ***

*** NOTE woodbuck27 ***:

See Dom Capers and a traditional 3-4 Defensive Front seven.

His strength may be as an NFL DT/NT >>> defending the run on first and second downs.

[woodbuck27]

Help me understand.... how our defense is defensible?

Memo: Mike McCarthy.

[woodbuck27]

Maybe Ted is not drafting players typical to the system DOM wants to run; just a thought

TT, MM and D.C. Dom Capers must ** focus on being on the same page in terms of dramatically improving the Packers "D". The way the Packers played defense last season was alarming.

The Green bay Packers cannot compete with the elite NFL teams with an NFL bottom third ranked Defense.

** Focus:

That has to be based on "a supply on demand" basis.

A) After communication (TT>><<MM>><<Dom Capers>><<TT) based on a shared philosophy on the Packers Defense:

It's ...

B) TT's job to get the needed talent...not simply bodies (body types...look the part's).

then...

C) It's MM and Dom's and the entire Green Bay Packers coaching staffs job focus to mold that talent into a strong cohesive and deep DEFENSE.

GO PACK GO !

[Fritz]

I wonder if Dom's going to have to adjust how he sets up and calls a defense, given that his talent doesn't fit what he's used to.

I still find it a bit unsettling that just one year after the talk about drafting more "traditional" 3-4 DE's (Datone Jones), that talk has disappeared and we're back to the hybrid guys. Is there a lack of direction? Or are the differences physically so slight (6-4 and 285 versus 6-2 and 305) that it doesn't really matter?

Surely, if Ted is not drafting what Dom would like, they've all discussed this. I doubt that a venerable DC like Capers would just shrug and keep going. Surely they've talked this all out. Right...?

One problem I wonder about: however the above is answered, let's say they go with this more one-gap, penetrating style. Are they screwed, then, when a couple guys shoot the gap, and Kaepernick then takes off down the field?

Is this the opposite approach to last year? Stay in your lanes, so what if you don't really pressure him, just don't let him run, etc.

I'm so confused about this defense now. It all seems to have started this year when MM said he wanted to run all the packages any time, so now every player seems to have to play multiple positions.

[Joemailman]

I wonder if Dom's going to have to adjust how he sets up and calls a defense, given that his talent doesn't fit what he's used to.

I still find it a bit unsettling that just one year after the talk about drafting more "traditional" 3-4 DE's (Datone Jones), that talk has disappeared and we're back to the hybrid guys. Is there a lack of direction? Or are the differences physically so slight (6-4 and 285 versus 6-2 and 305) that it doesn't really matter?




When Jones was drafted, he was seen as a guy who could line up inside in nickel, or play DE in base. However, a lot of the reports on him suggested that he had the frame to put on weight. I think 285 is a little light to be playing base DE, but he might be able to do it if he can get closer to 300. It will be interesting to see what he looks like when he shows up for training camp.


I'm so confused about this defense now. It all seems to have started this year when MM said he wanted to run all the packages any time, so now every player seems to have to play multiple positions.

MM has had it with injuries hampering the defense. I think last year the Packers took a lot out of their defense because of injuries. The idea now is that if you lose a certain player to injury, you don't have to adjust the defense because you have someone else ready yo assume that role. On offense, the Packers expect all of their WR's to learn all of the different WR positions (Wideout, slot receiver, etc. ). Therefore, the Packers don't have to reduce their playbook if a certain receiver is out. I think MM wants the defense to be able to do the same thing.

[red]

Picture a passing down with Daniels at NT, D. Jones and Neal at DE, Matthews and Peppers at OLB, Bradford and Hawk at ILB. Do we have a pass rush or what?

i don't see much of a pass rush there

daniels, jones and neal are all average at best pass rushers. they will be single blocked by the center and guards without much problem. leaving both tackles, a RB/FB and maybe a TE to pick up the OLB's

hawk is not a pass rusher, and who knows about bradford, but we are horrible using the up the middle blitz

unless you get some fatties in there that can command a double team, you're only real pass rushers (the OLBs) are gonna be taking on multiple blockers on every snap

[Brandon494]

i don't see much of a pass rush there

daniels, jones and neal are all average at best pass rushers. they will be single blocked by the center and guards without much problem. leaving both tackles, a RB/FB and maybe a TE to pick up the OLB's

hawk is not a pass rusher, and who knows about bradford, but we are horrible using the up the middle blitz

unless you get some fatties in there that can command a double team, you're only real pass rushers (the OLBs) are gonna be taking on multiple blockers on every snap

He just listed our best pass rushers... :-|

[Striker]

*edit*

[Striker]

i don't see much of a pass rush there

daniels, jones and neal are all average at best pass rushers. they will be single blocked by the center and guards without much problem. leaving both tackles, a RB/FB and maybe a TE to pick up the OLB's

hawk is not a pass rusher, and who knows about bradford, but we are horrible using the up the middle blitz

unless you get some fatties in there that can command a double team, you're only real pass rushers (the OLBs) are gonna be taking on multiple blockers on every snap

I'd think Raji would be in at NT on passing downs. Also, at the very least, Daniels is above average based on what he flashed last year. He was seeing quite a few double teams with Matthews out and Raji ineffective.

In passing downs they could also throw out a front of Peppers/Daniels/Raji/Neal (or Jones/Perry) with Matthews/Perry as LBs and 5 DBs.

[texaspackerbacker]

i don't see much of a pass rush there

daniels, jones and neal are all average at best pass rushers. they will be single blocked by the center and guards without much problem. leaving both tackles, a RB/FB and maybe a TE to pick up the OLB's

hawk is not a pass rusher, and who knows about bradford, but we are horrible using the up the middle blitz

unless you get some fatties in there that can command a double team, you're only real pass rushers (the OLBs) are gonna be taking on multiple blockers on every snap

Those fat lumps we used last season - Pickett and Raji - certainly didn't command double teams. On any kind of an outside run or rollout pass play, they didn't even need single blocking.

I strongly disagree that Daniels and Datone Jones are "average at best". Daniels did the job even when the other two D-Linemen were total nothings. Datone, when he was healthy, showed some ability too. Neal, yeah average pretty much describes him, but as our third best out of three, that ain't bad. What I probably should have said was Peppers and Datone at DE, Daniels at NT, and Perry along with Matthews at OLB. As for Hawk, somebody has to drop back in coverage. And Bradford has the reputation as a strong pass rusher coming in. Hopefully they move him inside, and he performs like Desmond Bishop before his injury.

[pbmax]

He just listed our best pass rushers... :-|

Daniels and a healthy Neal are better than average. Jones looked that way too until he hurt his foot or ankle.

APRH, its not a bad group. You are right, there is not a dominating presence, but that is what Matthews/Peppers and hopefully Perry will do.

[woodbuck27]

Those fat lumps we used last season - Pickett and Raji - certainly didn't command double teams. On any kind of an outside run or rollout pass play, they didn't even need single blocking.

I strongly disagree that Daniels and Datone Jones are "average at best". Daniels did the job even when the other two D-Linemen were total nothings. Datone, when he was healthy, showed some ability too. Neal, yeah average pretty much describes him, but as our third best out of three, that ain't bad. What I probably should have said was Peppers and Datone at DE, Daniels at NT, and Perry along with Matthews at OLB. As for Hawk, somebody has to drop back in coverage. And Bradford has the reputation as a strong pass rusher coming in. Hopefully they move him inside, and he performs like Desmond Bishop before his injury.

Yes on BJ Raji.; In him it's like believing in miracles. He was constantly defeated in single coverage. He played like a weak sister.

Is Mike Daniels big enough to stand up at NT? I see him at LDE in a 3-4 Base.

The rest of your thoughts look as legit possibilities to me.

[Fritz]

Yes on BJ Raji.; In him it's like believing in miracles. He was constantly defeated in single coverage. He played like a weak sister.

Is Mike Daniels big enough to stand up at NT? I see him at LDE in a 3-4 Base.

The rest of your thoughts look as legit possibilities to me.



C'mon, Woody - you remember the lyrics!!!




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrxA4DcQw-Q

[texaspackerbacker]

Yes on BJ Raji.; In him it's like believing in miracles. He was constantly defeated in single coverage. He played like a weak sister.

Is Mike Daniels big enough to stand up at NT? I see him at LDE in a 3-4 Base.

The rest of your thoughts look as legit possibilities to me.

I only meant Daniels as NT in passing situations. In the base, yeah, he and Datone and Worthy and maybe Boyd rotating at DE. I'm resigned to the fact that we're stuck with Raji there in the base for another year anyway. Hopefully he has just enough mobility and penetration to contribute a little bit.

[woodbuck27]

I only meant Daniels as NT in passing situations. In the base, yeah, he and Datone and Worthy and maybe Boyd rotating at DE. I'm resigned to the fact that we're stuck with Raji there in the base for another year anyway. Hopefully he has just enough mobility and penetration to contribute a little bit.

OK.... got it.

Thanks.

[woodbuck27]

C'mon, Woody - you remember the lyrics!!!




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrxA4DcQw-Q

A long tie since I heard that song Fritz ...Thanks.

With B. J. Raji and being an Irish Canadian I "only" see this:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ZIDZKrVb3LQ/TE2vWHfeh6I/AAAAAAAADnU/UyPv8cZOMcs/s1600/potato+head.gif

Look at that...... B.J. Raji got his helmet knocked off !

[pbmax]

This one is for wist:


It’s still unclear, though, what Raji’s role will be in the defense this season. Packers coach Mike McCarthy estimates the Packers have played their base “Okie” defense only 24 percent of the time over the past three seasons, meaning Raji’s role would be limited if he only saw action in the base defense. But with veteran Ryan Pickett not having been re-signed, it should open up more snaps for Raji, who’ll turn 28 in July.

http://www.espnwisconsin.com/common/page.php?feed=2&id=14311&is_corp=1

[run pMc]

They're paying Raji $4M; he'll play more than 24% of the snaps if he's healthy.

Seems to me the DL is moving away from "fat slugs" to more athletic types. Yes, they lose some size, but I think they gain quickness, probably better pursuit, and improved pass rush. What I don't know is if it will hurt the run defense. I'm still not sure where they will play some of these guys...not a lot of what I'd consider classic 3-4 DEs or NTs on the squad, so I'm as curious about the DL as anyone.

[Fritz]

Agreed, it seems a bit odd. Other than Raji, no real nose-tackle types, and other than Datone Jones, no classic 3-4 DE body types, either. Lots of guys who are built like defensive tackles in a 4-3.

[run pMc]

Agreed, it seems a bit odd. Other than Raji, no real nose-tackle types, and other than Datone Jones, no classic 3-4 DE body types, either. Lots of guys who are built like defensive tackles in a 4-3.

Yeah. The could play Peppers, Datone, Neal, Perry, and Mulumba at DE and the rest (Worthy, Raji, Boyd, Thornton, Daniels, Guion) at DT. Looks more like a 4-3 team to me. Maybe that's the whole point of all the "Elephant" hubbub. What's really interesting is there were a couple of classic 3-4 DE's available in R3 when TT took Thornton. They must have a plan for what to do with these guys...I guess we'll find out.

[mraynrand]

I don't think Mulumba holds up at DE

[run pMc]

I don't think Mulumba holds up at DE

True. I was thinking if they actually moved to a 4-3, it probably wouldn't be a stretch for Mulumba to put on 10 pounds and play DE. He'd still be far down the depth chart.
As it is, he's a 3-4 OLB. I do think he could play "Elephant" in a pinch, but wouldn't want him there for more than a handful of snaps.

[Fritz]

Yeah. The could play Peppers, Datone, Neal, Perry, and Mulumba at DE and the rest (Worthy, Raji, Boyd, Thornton, Daniels, Guion) at DT. Looks more like a 4-3 team to me. Maybe that's the whole point of all the "Elephant" hubbub. What's really interesting is there were a couple of classic 3-4 DE's available in R3 when TT took Thornton. They must have a plan for what to do with these guys...I guess we'll find out.

This has crossed my mind, too - if you were building a 4-3 defense you'd want these types of defensive linemen. I'm not as up on the draft prospects as I used to be, so I did not and do not know who the others were who were more classic 3-4 DE's available in round three this year, but the fact that they were there and Thompson did not take them indicates that perhaps TT did not think they were as good as Thornton -- or that Dom Capers was giving us all a hint when he made reference recently to working for a coach in Jacksonville who favored a 4-3, and creating a defense that fit those players, who'd been drafted to play the 4-3 (in the previous years).

Is this a new, weird, hybrid 4-3/3-4? Or is this just that general idea that MM now wants defenders who can play multiple positions, so they're drafting (and signing!) d-lineman who could play DE or OLB, and others who could play inside or outside?

I admit to being bothered by what seems an about-face from last year: being vocal (if I recall correctly) about wanting a "classic" 3-4 DE, to now drafting more of these Worthy/Daniels tweener types.

I'm so confused!

[texaspackerbacker]

They sometimes refer to the base 3-4 D as the "Okie" - basically an old Oklahoma 5-2. A lot of times on passing downs, they went to just 2 down linemen. If our 3-4 is basically a 5-2, then our 2-5 or 2-3 or whatever is pretty much a 4 man line - 4-3 unless you load up with DBs instead of LBs. It's all just terminology - you try to load up against the opponent's weakness and/or stop what they do best. I'm just glad that we stand to have a lot more mobile D-Line this season - D Linemen who can actually tackle instead of just take up space.

[Joemailman]

This has crossed my mind, too - if you were building a 4-3 defense you'd want these types of defensive linemen. I'm not as up on the draft prospects as I used to be, so I did not and do not know who the others were who were more classic 3-4 DE's available in round three this year, but the fact that they were there and Thompson did not take them indicates that perhaps TT did not think they were as good as Thornton -- or that Dom Capers was giving us all a hint when he made reference recently to working for a coach in Jacksonville who favored a 4-3, and creating a defense that fit those players, who'd been drafted to play the 4-3 (in the previous years).

Is this a new, weird, hybrid 4-3/3-4? Or is this just that general idea that MM now wants defenders who can play multiple positions, so they're drafting (and signing!) d-lineman who could play DE or OLB, and others who could play inside or outside?

I admit to being bothered by what seems an about-face from last year: being vocal (if I recall correctly) about wanting a "classic" 3-4 DE, to now drafting more of these Worthy/Daniels tweener types.

I'm so confused!

It seems we don't know what to expect. Maybe that's the impact he wants to have on opposing offenses. I remember some years back when the Patriots had Willie McGinest. He could line up either at OLB or DE. Opposing offenses wouldn't know what kind of defense the Patriots were in until they figured out what McGinest was doing. Maybe that's what the Packers are shooting for.

[mraynrand]

True. I was thinking if they actually moved to a 4-3, it probably wouldn't be a stretch for Mulumba to put on 10 pounds and play DE. He'd still be far down the depth chart.
As it is, he's a 3-4 OLB. I do think he could play "Elephant" in a pinch, but wouldn't want him there for more than a handful of snaps.

It's funny how you draw conclusions about a guy. Mulumba is an edge rusher and I saw him as being too small, but he's listed at 6'3" 260 pounds. For comparison, KGB was 6'4" and played at 255.

I know there are a lot of people (Wist) who hate Capers 'miscasting' these DEs (Perry, Neal, ?Mulumba?) as OLBs. But just my impression from watching Mulumba made me think he's too small for DE. But that all depends on how often they make him defend the run. I'm interested now in seeing how well Mulumba plays the run, since Matthews obviously can defense the run as an OLB, and he's pretty small. I guess the bottom line for me is that I don't like to see Mulumba - or Matthews for that matter - getting worn down defending the run, when their strengths are in their pass-rush burst upfield and speed/quickness in pursuit.

[Fritz]

They sometimes refer to the base 3-4 D as the "Okie" - basically an old Oklahoma 5-2. A lot of times on passing downs, they went to just 2 down linemen. If our 3-4 is basically a 5-2, then our 2-5 or 2-3 or whatever is pretty much a 4 man line - 4-3 unless you load up with DBs instead of LBs. It's all just terminology - you try to load up against the opponent's weakness and/or stop what they do best. I'm just glad that we stand to have a lot more mobile D-Line this season - D Linemen who can actually tackle instead of just take up space.


So, to recap:

The Packers run a 3-4 defense, which indicates three down linemen and four linebackers. This is the "base," or basic, defense of the Green Bay Packers. Somehow, though, the base 3-4 features not three defensive linemen and four linebackers, but five defensive linemen and two linebackers.

However, on obvious passing down this became a 2-5 defense, though in Green Bay's scheme this 2-5 is actually a four man line with three linebackers - a 4-3 - unless they play more DB's, in which case it's a 4-2 or even a 4-1.

So a 3-4 base is a 5-2, and our 2-5 is a 4-3 or 4-2 or even a 4-1.


Ooooooookay...

No wonder these players have so much trouble picking up the defense as rookies.

[run pMc]

Ooooooookay...

and Peppers is a tackler for the Packers and no longer a Packer tackler. ;)

I think 3-4 vs 5-2 depends on where your LBs are lined up -- on the line or not. It may also have to do with the personnel: few would confuse Mike Daniels with a LB.

FWIW, I do think they are moving to a more hybrid defense. Many NFL defenses are doing this, not just NE.

[pbmax]

How NOT to defend the run. Mike Neal version.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqcd_8gHe5U&feature=youtu.be

The other question is what gap is Jones watching. He and Hawk are almost stacked behind the line. Weird.

On TV, this play looks like a speed problem. But everyone crashes in and thereby puts themselves a step or two slow right at the beginning.

[Bossman641]

MM seems to be looking for a DL that can slip blocks and play in the opposing backfield. In the past the game plan has always been to have the slugs muck everything up and create a stalemate at the LOS. I think we'll see more tackles for loss but also a few long runs busted when somebody misplays a gap.

[denverYooper]

How NOT to defend the run. Mike Neal version.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqcd_8gHe5U&feature=youtu.be

The other question is what gap is Jones watching. He and Hawk are almost stacked behind the line. Weird.

On TV, this play looks like a speed problem. But everyone crashes in and thereby puts themselves a step or two slow right at the beginning.

Heh. "No Contain" could be the title on the Packers' 2013 season footage.

[Fritz]

They really, really gotta do better this year on those plays. That play looked like one that should've featured Erik Walden.

[Joemailman]

That is a weird looking play. Is that poorly designed, or does Neal make a mental error by crashing inside? The only way that run gets stopped is if Neal manages to break through and tackle the RB in the backfield.

[Zool]

Heh. "No Contain" could be the title on the Packers' 2013 season footage.

And 2012....and 2011

[smuggler]

It may have been that the play called for him to shoot the 2 gap.

Maybe he thinks the play is going inside and abandons his responsibility to try and make a play. Looks like a guy who might be suffering from diminished faith in his teammates.

Or as pMc says, the weird play was just a bad look for our front.

[run pMc]

That is a weird looking play. Is that poorly designed, or does Neal make a mental error by crashing inside? The only way that run gets stopped is if Neal manages to break through and tackle the RB in the backfield.

It is a weird looking play -- I wonder if the defense got confused. You have an unbalanced OL: two TE on one side, two OT on the other. Neal crashes inside between the two OT, but I wonder if he was playing that as a 5-tech, like the outer T was a TE. He's lined up like it's a 7 tech, but whatever it is it looks like he played the wrong gap. Honestly, I have no idea what GB is doing there -- by my count, the Eagles have 9 guys crammed in there, and GB has 8. It seems like with Burnett over the inline TE, maybe GB needed to have the ILBs and Neal slide over a gap to the OT side. Who knows...I'm an idiot at this stuff, but I do know that's not good defense.

[pbmax]

Neal is a 9 tech in that defense, even if he doesn't think he is because its an O lineman and not a TE. Matthew is a 7. Neal has contain because no one else can unless there is an exchange of roles with Hawk, and Hawk doesn't head out side until the run goes there.

The problem is that the Packers saw pass personnel and matched it but then ignored the unbalanced line. If you want to guard against the overloaded zone you could get with 3 receivers bunched on the left side of the screen (which is what they are doing), then the right side of screen D has got to play it straight. You can't cheat inside no matter what the call may have been.