Biggest addition TT has made.

[Just Jeff]

Related to the other thread about Peppers not make the list of 25. What do you think is the biggest move the TT has ever made with the Packers. Not how things turned out, otherwise AR is the certain answer, but in terms of what he did, when he did it. I go with the Peppers move.

[pbmax]

Woodson cost a lot more.

[Joemailman]

Didn't he cause quite a ruckus by trading a famous quarterback once?

[Joemailman]

Trading a 2nd round pick and 2 3rd's for Clay Matthews was at the time totally out of character for him.

[Just Jeff]

Woodson cost a lot more.

A few other parallels there too. Many thought that Woodson was at the end of his career. Here's to Peppers playing for 6 more year and yet to peak.

[RashanGary]

Trading favre (was the biggest story in the nfl that training camp)
Signing Woodson (younger than peppers)
Trading into the first round for Matthews
Peppers

[mraynrand]

Probably Howard Green

[Zool]

I was going to say Picket until I saw Rand's post. Green had 20 pounds on Picket.

Then I remembered Thompson has probably purchased a car and a house. Those are way bigger than a human. I'm going to say his house.

[pbmax]

You could make a case for Green in both senses. Big and consequential.

[Guiness]

Around this joint you'd think letting Scott Wells go was it. I rank that move on the same level as cutting Whisper Goodman, or the disastrous move he made his first year with the team of not resigning Taco Wallace.

aside: don't get me wrong, he was a very good player, but way too much has been made of his departure

[Just Jeff]

Around this joint you'd think letting Scott Wells go was it. I rank that move on the same level as cutting Whisper Goodman, or the disastrous move he made his first year with the team of not resigning Taco Wallace.

aside: don't get me wrong, he was a very good player, but way too much has been made of his departure

Most would agree, but when you couple it with Rivera and Wahle it really shows his reckless lack of concern for the two 1st ballot HOF QBs that the line was supposed to protect. 10 years later, our Oline is nowhere where it was when it was the great white wall.

[pbmax]

Most would agree, but when you couple it with Rivera and Wahle it really shows his reckless lack of concern for the two 1st ballot HOF QBs that the line was supposed to protect. 10 years later, our Oline is nowhere where it was when it was the great white wall.

How many NFC Championships (or beyond) did that Great White Wall get to again?

[Just Jeff]

How many NFC Championships (or beyond) did that Great White Wall get to again?

C'mon. you know that's a straw horse. Dan Marino was not good? I don't think Ms Thompson would say that our current Oline could hold the jock strap of the great white wall.

[pbmax]

C'mon. you know that's a straw horse. Dan Marino was not good? I don't think Ms Thompson would say that our current Oline could hold the jock strap of the great white wall.

I'm not measuring one player's career by a single achievement. I am measuring the effect of a complete unit on a team's playoff performance and considering the cost to the team in cap and dollars. The Great Wall had four chances in the playoffs together and couldn't advance to the Championship Game (or beyond). Those five players did not make enough of a difference. The Thompson era has demonstrated that a team is better off suffusing the roster with more talent at cheaper prices.

It would have helped the injury ravaged 2002 team.

And like Wells, Rivera demonstrated the risk of the over 30 vet by getting injured well before the end of his deal.

[Just Jeff]

I'm not measuring one player's career by a single achievement. I am measuring the effect of a complete unit on a team's playoff performance and considering the cost to the team in cap and dollars. The Great Wall had four chances in the playoffs together and couldn't advance to the Championship Game (or beyond). Those five players did not make enough of a difference. The Thompson era has demonstrated that a team is better off suffusing the roster with more talent at cheaper prices.

It would have helped the injury ravaged 2002 team.

And like Wells, Rivera demonstrated the risk of the over 30 vet by getting injured well before the end of his deal.
Wells and Rivera were seldom injured and you can't extrapolate that because they did elsewhere, that they would have here. To advance the sophistry that our Oline was the problem in the late 90s and early 2000s is really a stretch. We had two things going for us during that time period, one of which was our Oline.

Who is this "more talent" at "cheaper prices" that TT has assembled for our Oline?

[pbmax]

Wells and Rivera were seldom injured and you can't extrapolate that because they did elsewhere

I don't need to because older players get hurt and miss games more often, and in the cases we are discussing, they are more expensive and leave the team with fewer resources to assemble talent.


To advance the sophistry that our Oline was the problem in the late 90s and early 2000s is really a stretch. We had two things going for us during that time period, one of which was our Oline.

I did not identify the O line as a problem and made no mention of the late 90s. I said four years (2001-2004) and cited a lack of evidence that the superior players on that line could push a team to a Conference Championship. And that was before two of them were in line for very large raises. Even with their modest costs during that period, the team already had cap issues, though not all were centered on the O line.


Who is this "more talent" at "cheaper prices" that TT has assembled for our Oline?

I said the roster, not specifically the O Line.

[Brandon494]

Woodson is the popurlar choice and TT finding Tramon Williams and Sam Shields as undrafted free agents were big additions as well. I think the clear answer though is Aaron Rodgers, some GMs would have given into the fan pressure and drafted a player to help Favre get to another Super Bowl. Rodgers still has a long ways to go but I think he will end up being a better QB than Favre.

[Guiness]

Wells and Rivera were seldom injured and you can't extrapolate that because they did elsewhere, that they would have here. To advance the sophistry that our Oline was the problem in the late 90s and early 2000s is really a stretch. We had two things going for us during that time period, one of which was our Oline.

Who is this "more talent" at "cheaper prices" that TT has assembled for our Oline?

Riviera was very broken down by that time. Back, knee, etc. There wasn't enough tape in the trainer's kit to hold him together by the time he left here. He was worse than hurt a lot of times, and you couldn't get him off the field, but he was done.

[Patler]

His biggest move?

Firing a head coach with one of the highest winning percentages in Packer history, passing over front runners for the job (especially Payton), and hiring a guy few thought of as much of a candidate for any HC job at the time.

[Just Jeff]

I don't need to because older players get hurt and miss games more often, and in the cases we are discussing, they are more expensive and leave the team with fewer resources to assemble talent.

So unlike the younger Bulaga, Sherrod, Tretter, etc.



I did not identify the O line as a problem and made no mention of the late 90s. I said four years (2001-2004) and cited a lack of evidence that the superior players on that line could push a team to a Conference Championship.

And I made mention of the early 2000s to which you did in fact attribute the teams problems in part to the Oline:" The Great Wall had four chances in the playoffs together and couldn't advance to the Championship Game (or beyond). Those five players did not make enough of a difference." I only stretched to the late 90's as they were, for the most part, the exact same players.



I said the roster, not specifically the O Line.

I hope you'll excuse my confusion. When you post "the great white wall", "those five guys" and "wells, rivera" I assumed that you were referring to the Oline, especially when you were responding to a post of mine that exclusively was about our Oline and its protection of our QBs.

[bobblehead]

I am going with trading back into the first round (with the Favre pick) to grab Clay. I am not as huge a clay fan as many here are, but I think you could argue that had he not done that we wouldn't have won a superbowl. Now, if the human ace bandage can stay healthy and thrive with Peppers helping draw the attention, and should we win another SB, then its a no brainer in my book. Of course assuming/hoping our D cranks it back up this year might be a stretch, but I'm a glass half full kinda guy.

Ted did something everyone claimed he NEVER WILL DO. He traded multiple valuable picks to get ONE GUY. That one guy proved to be well worth it.

[Just Jeff]

Riviera was very broken down by that time. Back, knee, etc. There wasn't enough tape in the trainer's kit to hold him together by the time he left here. He was worse than hurt a lot of times, and you couldn't get him off the field, but he was done.

That may be but he started EVERY single game for his last five years on the team (1999-2004), including playoff games. In light of the current injury situation on our team, I would hardly call that broken down. In fact you have to go back to 1998 to find a game that Rivera didn't start. Tauscher and Clifton were equally broken down and yet easily beat out the late round, budget Olinemen TT tried to replace them with. The only Olineman that TT has picked to rival this would be Josh Sitton and over his last 5 years even he has started one less game than Rivera. After Sitton you can't even find a TT pick that lasted 5 years as a starter, so the starts can't be compared. I don't focus on our White Wall in terms of how great they were, but how miserable their replacements have been.

[smuggler]

Probably Howard Green

This comment not getting nearly enough love. Howard was quite the large man.

[Iron Mike]

I gotta go with drafting Jason Spitz:

http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/lou/sports/m-footbl/03-04roster/HS_spitz_jason.jpg

[pbmax]

Careers don't go on forever. At some point the risk is too high for the price. You cannot reward players for what they did under the last deal. We might see something like that in Jordy's next contract.

Hiring his own coach should probably be high on the list, but everyone expects the new GM to get his own guy. Does that diminish the "bigness" of the move to fire Sherman and hire McCarthy?

[Pugger]

Trading favre (was the biggest story in the nfl that training camp)
Signing Woodson (younger than peppers)
Trading into the first round for Matthews
Peppers

We can't omit Ted drafting Rodgers.

[Brandon494]

I can't believe I'm am the only one who has mentioned Rodgers. You guys act like QB grow on trees, after a QB like Favre we are lucky as shit to score on another hall of fame QB like Rodgers. I'm not a betting man but the smart bet would be on us winning the super bowl this year because of #12 and the improvements on defense. IMO all we need is a top 10 defense to win it all, I'm putting $500 on it myself. :cow:

[Joemailman]

I can't believe I'm am the only one who has mentioned Rodgers. You guys act like QB grow on trees, after a QB like Favre we are lucky as shit to score on another hall of fame QB like Rodgers. I'm not a betting man but the smart bet would be on us winning the super bowl this year because of #12 and the improvements on defense. IMO all we need is a top 10 defense to win it all, I'm putting $500 on it myself. :cow:

The original premise of the thread was which was TT's biggest move at the time he did it, without the benefit of hindsight. Now, drafting a QB on the 1st round when you still had Favre was a big move, but there were others that seemed pretty big when they were made.

[mraynrand]

The original premise of the thread was which was TT's biggest move at the time he did it, without the benefit of hindsight. Now, drafting a QB on the 1st round when you still had Favre was a big move, but there were others that seemed pretty big when they were made.

The QB was probably the biggest because it was Favre. You don't draft a QB in the first round without the intention of having him play. That pick made it crystal clear that Favre's days in GB were numbered.

Runner up is the move for Matthews. That wasn't as big, based on the criteria for this thread, because Matthews wasn't all that well known. Still, Favre was angry that the Packers didn't get him more weapons. :)

[Cheesehead Craig]

Rodgers
Matthews
Woodson

[Zool]

Drafting Jennings over Jackson should get a nod as well.

[Pugger]

The QB was probably the biggest because it was Favre. You don't draft a QB in the first round without the intention of having him play. That pick made it crystal clear that Favre's days in GB were numbered.

Runner up is the move for Matthews. That wasn't as big, based on the criteria for this thread, because Matthews wasn't all that well known. Still, Favre was angry that the Packers didn't get him more weapons. :)

I suspect the move was made because Favre hinted at retirement for a couple of years and Aaron was the unquestioned BPA at that spot. I truly didn't think Thompson would pull the trigger because not many do when they have a QB like #4 already on the roster. It showed us TT was thinking about the long term interests of the franchise and not just a win now mentality. I'll bet TT thought to himself if Favre was pissed tough shit. The QB isn't running the show any more.

[Patler]

Wells and Rivera were seldom injured and you can't extrapolate that because they did elsewhere, that they would have here. To advance the sophistry that our Oline was the problem in the late 90s and early 2000s is really a stretch. We had two things going for us during that time period, one of which was our Oline.

Who is this "more talent" at "cheaper prices" that TT has assembled for our Oline?

Don't confuse being able to start with not being injured. Wells and Rivera were injured all the time. Rivera rarely practiced the last few years. Wells missed a lot of practice time various years, as well as a few games several years. Sooner or later that was bound to catch up with each of them, especially Rivera, who was what, 32 going on 33?

TT was walking a salary cap high wire in 2005. A misstep or two and they would have been in big trouble. He was willing to risk a bit on one of the guards, reportedly focused on Rivera who it was thought could be had a bit cheaper (Wahle was never a happy camper in GB and seemed unlikely to negotiate), but Dallas blew that out of the water. Even without signing Rivera and with releasing Wahle, they also had to release Ruegamer just to get under the salary cap. Only after Sharper refused to renegotiate, forcing the Packers to release him 10 days later, did the Packers gain some cap flexibility for that off season.

Wahle - talked about leaving for years, apparently felt unappreciated, had the Packers over a barrel with his roster bonus (thanks Mike Sherman!) and gave no indication of being interested in negotiating, or staying for that matter.

Rivera - was offered more than the Packers could have or should have paid to keep him.

Wells - much like Wahle, conveyed the impression that he felt under appreciated for years and was disinterested in returning. MM having given the starting spot to Spitz a few seasons earlier didn't help, I'm sure.

GMs have to make tough decisions, including letting players go when they know the team is likely to be worse at those positions because of it. Wahle, Rivera and Wells all fall in to that category, but I think were still the right decisions at the time each was made.

[run pMc]

Biggest addition?

Trading Favre (addition by subtraction, TC was gonna be a zoo)
Drafting Rodgers with Favre on the roster
Woodson
Matthews
Hiring McCarthy
Peppers
Drafting (take your pick): Jennings, Jordy, Lacy
Not signing Randy Moss -- sometimes the best moves are the ones you don't make

[Fritz]

When he traded that second rounder to the Bills for Marshawn Lynch.

[woodbuck27]

Woodson is the popurlar choice and TT finding Tramon Williams and Sam Shields as undrafted free agents were big additions as well. I think the clear answer though is Aaron Rodgers, some GMs would have given into the fan pressure and drafted a player to help Favre get to another Super Bowl. Rodgers still has a long ways to go but I think he will end up being a better QB than Favre.

WOW! That's a gutsy prediction. I hope your correct. :-)

To focus on your prediction the Green Bay Packers and Aaron Rodgers will go 49W - 15L over the next four regular seasons. That's a winning percentage of 0.7656 or a lofty position of all NFL teams in NFL history for a four consecutive season record.

To keep it in perspective and simply looking at the Bret Favre Era:

From 1995 -2004 with Brett Favre under center the Green Bay Packers had an accumulated record of 109W - 51L....or a 0.68125 Winning Percentage.

** That included a terrific four (4) season stretch between 1995-98 when the Green Bay Packers had a combined 48W-16L record ( a lofty 0.750 Winning Percentage).

** Brett Favre won three consecutive NFL MVP awards 1995-97 (sharing the 1997 award with Barry Sanders - Detroit Lions).

** In that same period Brett Favre led the Green Bay Packers to consecutive Super Bowl appearances and winning once.

It's a lot like that breakfast saying;

Let's get crackin'.

[mraynrand]

I'll bet TT thought to himself if Favre was pissed tough shit. The QB isn't running the show any more.

As much as anything else, the drafting of Rodgers did show that TT was in charge and that constructing a team the way he saw fit was going to trump any individual player's concerns and ego.

[woodbuck27]

The QB was probably the biggest because it was Favre. You don't draft a QB in the first round without the intention of having him play. That pick made it crystal clear that Favre's days in GB were numbered.

Runner up is the move for Matthews. That wasn't as big, based on the criteria for this thread, because Matthews wasn't all that well known. Still, Favre was angry that the Packers didn't get him more weapons. :)

Brett Favre... angry!? ... that he didn't get enough weapons !?:

Was he angry or disappointed too very disappointed, that he didn't get enough offensive support at receiver?

[mraynrand]

Brett Favre... angry!? ... that he didn't get enough weapons !?:

Was he angry or disappointed too very disappointed, that he didn't get enough offensive support at receiver?

you have no sense of humor - at all. Do you realize I was referring to a draft two years removed from Favre's departure? I realize the 'joke' wasn't very funny, but you should have at least recognized that drafting Matthews had nothing to do with appeasing or pissing off Favre. thick, thick, thick

[woodbuck27]

I suspect the move was made because Favre hinted at retirement for a couple of years and Aaron was the unquestioned BPA at that spot. I truly didn't think Thompson would pull the trigger because not many do when they have a QB like #4 already on the roster. It showed us TT was thinking about the long term interests of the franchise and not just a win now mentality. I'll bet TT thought to himself if Favre was pissed tough shit. The QB isn't running the show any more.

" I'll bet TT thought to himself if Favre was pissed tough shit. The QB isn't running the show any more. " ... Pugger

Maybe you might rethink your position;

If TT ever came off to Brett Favre regarding what Favre desired as weapons and the realistic proposition of winning with "a tough shit " attitude. Would that be a sensible position and winning big? Maybe TT didn't plan on winning then with Brett Favre but rather phase Brett Favre out?

If that was the case was Ted Thompson selling out?

Bringing it up to speed/date:

How much attention did TT pay to the receiving and overall offensive positions in this most recent draft?

Maybe Aaron Rodgers is having some input into what TT does in the draft?

Shouldn't Aaron Rodgers have some influence on what his teams GM drafts?

Should a smart GM take the attitude of "tough shit' and any possibility of the above being a reality?

Back to Ted Thompson and his respect for his first Green Bay QB Brett Favre.

[woodbuck27]

you have no sense of humor - at all. Do you realize I was referring to a draft two years removed from Favre's departure? I realize the 'joke' wasn't very funny, but you should have at least recognized that drafting Matthews had nothing to do with appeasing or pissing off Favre. thick, thick, thick

As a matter of fact I have an outstanding sense of humor. I read your posts and laugh at them heartedly. :whaa:


Why are you such an angry poster?

Try to get a grip...calm...down mister.

[Fritz]

" I'll bet TT thought to himself if Favre was pissed tough shit. The QB isn't running the show any more. " ... Pugger

Maybe you might rethink your position;

If TT ever came off to Brett Favre regarding what Favre desired as weapons and the realistic proposition of winning with "a tough shit " attitude. Would that be a sensible position and winning big? Maybe TT didn't plan on winning then with Brett Favre but rather phase Brett Favre out?

If that was the case was Ted Thompson selling out?

Bringing it up to speed/date:

How much attention did TT pay to the receiving and overall offensive positions in this most recent draft?

Maybe Aaron Rodgers is having some input into what TT does in the draft?

Shouldn't Aaron Rodgers have some influence on what his teams GM drafts?

Should a smart GM take the attitude of "tough shit' and any possibility of the above being a reality?

Back to Ted Thompson and his respect for his first Green Bay QB Brett Favre.

I don't think Aaron Rodgers, or any player, should have any direct influence on a draft. At all. Sure, since he's "The Franchise," he has indirect influence as far as the organization wanting to draft guys to be weapons for him or to keep him upright. But as far as ARod picking up the phone and suggesting to Ted that the team really could use a new running back or safety, or doesn't need to draft a QB, or whatever, no. Hell no.

[Just Jeff]

I don't think Aaron Rodgers, or any player, should have any direct influence on a draft. At all. Sure, since he's "The Franchise," he has indirect influence as far as the organization wanting to draft guys to be weapons for him or to keep him upright. But as far as ARod picking up the phone and suggesting to Ted that the team really could use a new running back or safety, or doesn't need to draft a QB, or whatever, no. Hell no.
But I'm sure the influence is there. Recent comments by AR in the media, about the center position, were very possibly not the first time he opined on the subject, and its unlikely that TT is not aware of his opinion on the subject. I don't think there is a whole lot of difference in the substance of

"Hey TT, you homo, sign Moss"

and

"I would like to see some stability at center"

The form is very different, but the substance is the same. Message sent. Message received.

[woodbuck27]

But I'm sure the influence is there. Recent comments by AR in the media, about the center position, were very possibly not the first time he opined on the subject, and its unlikely that TT is not aware of his opinion on the subject. I don't think there is a whole lot of difference in the substance of

"Hey TT, you homo, sign Moss"

and

"I would like to see some stability at center"

The form is very different, but the substance is the same. Message sent. Message received.

"Hey TT, you homo, sign Moss" Just Jeff

What Packer fan said that? Who .... said that? :-)

[Pugger]

" I'll bet TT thought to himself if Favre was pissed tough shit. The QB isn't running the show any more. " ... Pugger

Maybe you might rethink your position;

If TT ever came off to Brett Favre regarding what Favre desired as weapons and the realistic proposition of winning with "a tough shit " attitude. Would that be a sensible position and winning big? Maybe TT didn't plan on winning then with Brett Favre but rather phase Brett Favre out?

If that was the case was Ted Thompson selling out?

Bringing it up to speed/date:

How much attention did TT pay to the receiving and overall offensive positions in this most recent draft?

Maybe Aaron Rodgers is having some input into what TT does in the draft?

Shouldn't Aaron Rodgers have some influence on what his teams GM drafts?

Should a smart GM take the attitude of "tough shit' and any possibility of the above being a reality?

Back to Ted Thompson and his respect for his first Green Bay QB Brett Favre.

Do you honestly believe Favre didn't have a lot of influence on Sherman?

[Patler]

But I'm sure the influence is there. Recent comments by AR in the media, about the center position, were very possibly not the first time he opined on the subject, and its unlikely that TT is not aware of his opinion on the subject. I don't think there is a whole lot of difference in the substance of

"Hey TT, you homo, sign Moss"

and

"I would like to see some stability at center"

The form is very different, but the substance is the same. Message sent. Message received.

I don't follow your argument. Both may have offered opinions to the media, maybe even directly to TT, but it doesn't appear either had significant influence on TT's decisions. TT didn't sign Moss, and he didn't keep either Wells or EDS, in spite of what Favre or AR might have wanted.

The GM is paid to make decisions based on his own judgement, and ignore the wants/desires of players unless it jives with the GM's own opinion/evaluation. Any GM who gives in to the wants of a player over the GM's own decision should be fired for being spineless.

[Just Jeff]

I don't follow your argument. Both may have offered opinions to the media, maybe even directly to TT, but it doesn't appear either had significant influence on TT's decisions. TT didn't sign Moss, and he didn't keep either Wells or EDS, in spite of what Favre or AR might have wanted.

The GM is paid to make decisions based on his own judgement, and ignore the wants/desires of players unless it jives with the GM's own opinion/evaluation. Any GM who gives in to the wants of a player over the GM's own decision should be fired for being spineless.

I never suggested that GMs obey, just that they do communicate with key personnel about their perceptions and that has some influence, at some level on their decisions. Same with scouts. They have input, but ultimately its the GMs call.

[bobblehead]

But I'm sure the influence is there. Recent comments by AR in the media, about the center position, were very possibly not the first time he opined on the subject, and its unlikely that TT is not aware of his opinion on the subject. I don't think there is a whole lot of difference in the substance of

"Hey TT, you homo, sign Moss"

and

"I would like to see some stability at center"

The form is very different, but the substance is the same. Message sent. Message received.

except your missing the main point. Neither guy got his wish.

[Just Jeff]

except your missing the main point. Neither guy got his wish.
It was my point so I doubt I missed it. Again, they have input, but it doesn't mean they get their wish. Not that complicated. There are hundreds, if not many more, variables that determine the dependent variable, in almost any equation. To suggest that because one of those variables isn't perfectly correlated with the outcome, that the variable does not have some correlation, shows a gross misunderstanding of any dependent, independent variable relationship.

[bobblehead]

It was my point so I doubt I missed it. Again, they have input, but it doesn't mean they get their wish. Not that complicated. There are hundreds, if not many more, variables that determine the dependent variable, in almost any equation. To suggest that because one of those variables isn't perfectly correlated with the outcome, that the variable does not have some correlation, shows a gross misunderstanding of any dependent, independent variable relationship.

I missed your point then. We are generally in agreement. The only subtle disagreement would be that with TT I don't think AR or BF's lobbying has any impact whatsoever. With some GM's I think a star QB might have more influence. In this case the variable isn't correlated with the outcome at all.

[BZnDallas]

It was my point so I doubt I missed it. Again, they have input, but it doesn't mean they get their wish. Not that complicated. There are hundreds, if not many more, variables that determine the dependent variable, in almost any equation. To suggest that because one of those variables isn't perfectly correlated with the outcome, that the variable does not have some correlation, shows a gross misunderstanding of any dependent, independent variable relationship.

SHIT!!!! I think I understood that.... SOMEONE GET ME A BEER!!!!!!!

LOL... all kidding aside... I do believe I understand what JJ is trying to say... the out come isn't the issue... the issue is both QBs saying something and making their opinions public... Who knows they may have been asked for their opinions by the media or they may have brought it up themselves... but the opinion being made public is the key

[BZnDallas]

Oops sorry bobble didn't see your post while I was typing

[Patler]

It was my point so I doubt I missed it. Again, they have input, but it doesn't mean they get their wish. Not that complicated. There are hundreds, if not many more, variables that determine the dependent variable, in almost any equation. To suggest that because one of those variables isn't perfectly correlated with the outcome, that the variable does not have some correlation, shows a gross misunderstanding of any dependent, independent variable relationship.

I don't consider blabbering to the media as having input. I don't consider going to the GM and saying, "I want X on my team." as having input either. A scout watching a player, writing an analysis and offering a recommendation IS having input in the process. That is the purpose of the scout, not the player.

[vince]

Most would agree, but when you couple it with Rivera and Wahle it really shows his reckless lack of concern for the two 1st ballot HOF QBs that the line was supposed to protect. 10 years later, our Oline is nowhere where it was when it was the great white wall.

2013 Packers Offensive Rankings
Sack Rate - 22nd (World Champions 32nd) (http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/qb-sacked-pct)
Sacks per Game - 25th (World Champions 24th) (http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/qb-sacked-per-game)

Yep the line sucked. But those stats don't tell the real story.

PFF digs a little deeper. (https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/06/20/qbs-in-focus-tendencies/2/)

Here's the real story.
QB Time Before Throwing (https://www.profootballfocus.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/TTT.png)
In 2013, if Rodgers didn't get rid of the ball on a quick route (he led the league in % of quick passes under 2 seconds - by plan not due to pressure as PFF shows in the next table), he tended to hang onto it a long time. He was well below the league average in getting rid of the ball between 2 ad 3.5 seconds but then jumped up well above the league average in holding the ball more than 3.5 seconds.

QB Time to Pressure (How Fast Does the Pressure Get There?) (https://www.profootballfocus.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/TTP.png)
In 2013, the line was consistently better than average in protecting Rodgers (and Flynn). They ranked well below the league average in every time range under 3.5 seconds to pressure and were well above the league average in holding off pressure more than 3.5 seconds.

That information indicates that the line didn't suck as bad as it might appear by just looking at sack numbers on their own...

And here are the rest of the rankings...

Rushing Yards per Game - 7th (http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/rushing-yards-per-game)
Rushing Yards per Attempt - 5th (http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/yards-per-rush-attempt)
Passing Yards per Game - 7th (http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/passing-yards-per-game)
Passing Yards per Attempt - 6th (http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/yards-per-pass-attempt)
Points per Game - 9th (http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/team-stat/scoring-offense-category)
Total Offense - 4th (http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/team-stat/total-offense-category)

That's not the kind of production you get with a shitty line. I'd say this line performed pretty damn well overall, especially considering they worked through three QB's - none of whom went through camp or played a down for the Packers in the preseason, for half the games.

And this year, time will tell but my guess is that none of Bulaga pushing Barclay to the bench, Tretter replacing EDS, and Sherrod (at minimum) pushing Bakh - who's no longer a 4th round rookie being forced into action at LT no less - are likely to make it perform any worse.

[mraynrand]

It's hard for me to imagine that TT and his QBs (and Stubby) aren't in a room together on multiple occasions going over film, talking about the QBs strengths, weaknesses, preferences, and TT talking about receiver types, routes, etc. that fit the abilities of the QB. If a QB were to 'lobby' for another 'weapon' I'm guessing he'd have all the chances in the world to do that. I also can see TT telling the QBs - "I've got a draft board and a strategy, and I know how to use them. You'll get what I give you and I'll try to make it what works best for you and the team."

Any public 'lobbying' seems to me to be frustration, but I can't imagine that it's in any way effective. And Rodgers saying he wants stability at center isn't lobbying, it isn't criticism, it's just a statement of fact and preference.

[mraynrand]

That's not the kind of production you get with a shitty line. I'd say this line performed pretty damn well overall, especially considering they worked through three QB's - none of whom went through camp or played a down for the Packers in the preseason, for half the games.

..... And this year, time will tell but my guess is that none of Bulaga pushing Barclay to the bench, Tretter replacing EDS, and Sherrod (at minimum) pushing Bakh - who's no longer a 4th round rookie being forced into action at LT no less - are likely to make it perform any worse.

good find. good analysis. repped

[Patler]

It's hard for me to imagine that TT and his QBs (and Stubby) aren't in a room together on multiple occasions going over film, talking about the QBs strengths, weaknesses, preferences, and TT talking about receiver types, routes, etc. that fit the abilities of the QB. If a QB were to 'lobby' for another 'weapon' I'm guessing he'd have all the chances in the world to do that. I also can see TT telling the QBs - "I've got a draft board and a strategy, and I know how to use them. You'll get what I give you and I'll try to make it what works best for you and the team."

Any public 'lobbying' seems to me to be frustration, but I can't imagine that it's in any way effective. And Rodgers saying he wants stability at center isn't lobbying, it isn't criticism, it's just a statement of fact and preference.

I doubt that TT and AR are very often in a room together for any purpose, let alone going over film of any sort.

[woodbuck27]

Do you honestly believe Favre didn't have a lot of influence on Sherman?

With the lack of weapons that FAVRE had to work with under Mike Sherman ie quality WR's:

Did it even matter?

Any influence he might have had in my view was moot.

[run pMc]

I think Favre had influence over Sherman, or at a minimum Sherman wasn't sure how many years he had with Favre and so he was in win-now mode and made some decisions accordingly. It cost him.
I think TT didn't let that thinking distract him from his methods.
I think TT let guys like Wahle and Rivera go because he knew they were going to want a lot of money and the rest of the roster had holes to fill. He tends to follow the axiom that it's better to let a vet leave a year early than keep them a year too long. Rivera didn't last long after leaving GB and Wahle put in a few decent years, so I guess he was 50/50 there.

I think vince pulled some interesting stats and it right about the team not being terrible. They aren't HOFers but they aren't stiffs.

I think JJ is right that the QB can talk to the media -- and with it being GB, anytime the QB is in public there's a danger of him being bothered for a quote (or misquoted) -- but that doesn't mean the GM is gonna do what the QB says publicly.

Personally I think it would look bad if the GM was taking cues from the QB's statements, public or not. The GM runs the entire team, the QB runs the offense as directed by the HC/OC.

[pbmax]

I don't know that Sherman needed to ever have a conversation about player acquisition with Favre in order to make the choices he did. The specter of Favre leaving while Sherman was on watch as GM clearly haunted the guy. A coach that barely anyone knew without no background as GM, no public reputation or resume to fall back on, he knew that if Favre balked hard enough about continuing to play, he was a goner. He was no Holmgren, Starr or Gregg and he wasn't even Wolf's hand picked successor.

I give Sherman credit in three areas. Some game management issues aside (clock), he was a good coach who could fire up his team to avoid losing streaks and compiled an impressive W-L record. His first hires for coaches were pretty good (Ed Donatell should have been retained, the O line coach was great). Second, as GM, he maintained enough composure in tough circumstances to not preside over a tire fire. Many of his hand picked draftees worked out (Barnett, Walker) if they weren't punters. He retained enough control of the cap that it took Thompson only one year (and three vets) to convert it to pay as you go.

The third is that he clearly maintained control of the team's offense with Rossley. Favre could have been indignant about running first, but he bought in and it worked. There are an entire generation of coaches for the Lions, Vikings and Bears post Ditka who could not claim that kind of quality track record.

But either through design (his preference about how to operate) or because of perceived pressure (fear of Favre-less future), he did not have a long term vision. He was a classic, take care of the problem in front of you guy. Needs linebackers? Sign the good ones you have so you don't lose anyone and don't worry about too much about overpaying (Diggs) and draft someone you think will work (Barnett). Same with WR and Javon Walker, though my memory is blank on re-signings and FAs (bringing Charles Jordan back?).

But with no long term vision and little flexibility in the cap, coupled with minimal experience, you get worked over by McKenzie and Walker (though Walker lost his battle, it took an injury to take the pressure off the team). He didn't let expensive vets go and resign 3rd or 4th week FA vets to replace them at less money because it was not a sure thing. He signed a one trick pony (KGB) so the defense wouldn't get immediately worse. With fewer draft picks and a tight cap, he needed to maintain his front-line starters more than most and it got expensive. Then the back end of the roster got worse as he had no sure way of replenishing depth.

I have said it before and I still believe it, the six to ten weeks that Favre with sit at home after a season, giving no indication about whether he intended to come back, was an exercise in power. It worked, probably better than he could have hoped for. Sherman's offense probably added 5 years to his career.

[Pugger]

Sherman wasn't a bad coach but he was a poor GM and is the poster boy on why one man shouldn't hold both positions at the same time.

[mraynrand]

Sherman was the greatest football mind in this millennium.

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