Offensive Offensive Line

[Harlan Huckleby]

Not much drama on the oline this summer, partly due to end of Newhouse roller coaster.

Barclay going down stirs the mix. I have a longshot hope that Sherrod wins the left tackle job. I say that because Bakhtiari can be a good starter at four positions along the line. You know somebody will go down before it's all over. Bakhtiari is the perfect 6th man. Sherrod is strictly LT.

edit: I did not mean to write "offensive" twice in the title, that is not an editorial comment. Madtown does not allow editing of titles because he is mean.


Speaking of the devil, I wish I could get the bobblehead at this Sunday's Brewer game:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcQOuLmZn978QD5yAhBEgn9CisZ_Kgn wOAtEQaWMAflDJq46Hp50q12WiXASLZmsmGlfMFczFuF4&usqp=CAEhttp://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/OTc4WDUwMA==/z/f3UAAOSwbqpT1FVX/$_35.JPG

[Just Jeff]

edit: I did not mean to write "offensive" twice in the title, that is not an editorial comment. Madtown does not allow editing of titles because he is mean.

No. Based on the last three years, you got it right.

[red]

i see nothing wrong with the title

our o-line has been offensive

[Harlan Huckleby]

I'm hopeful for this year's line.

until the next injury

[vince]

I swear some of you guys aren't happy unless you're whining about something...


2013 Packers Offensive Rankings
Sack Rate - 22nd (World Champions 32nd) (http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/qb-sacked-pct)
Sacks per Game - 25th (World Champions 24th) (http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/qb-sacked-per-game)

Yep the line sucked. But those stats don't tell the real story.

PFF digs a little deeper. (https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/06/20/qbs-in-focus-tendencies/2/)

QB Time Before Throwing (https://pff-pffanalysisltd12.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/TTT.png)
In 2013, if Rodgers didn't get rid of the ball on a quick route (he led the league in % of quick passes under 2 seconds - by plan not due to pressure as PFF shows in the next table), he tended to hang onto it a long time. He was well below the league average in getting rid of the ball between 2 ad 3.5 seconds but then jumped up well above the league average in holding the ball more than 3.5 seconds.

QB Time to Pressure (How Fast Does the Pressure Get There?) (https://pff-pffanalysisltd12.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/TTP.png)
In 2013, the line was consistently better than average in protecting Rodgers (and Flynn). They ranked well below the league average in every time range under 3.5 seconds to pressure and were well above the league average in holding off pressure more than 3.5 seconds.

That information indicates that the line didn't suck as bad as it might appear by just looking at sack numbers on their own...

And here are the rest of the rankings...

Rushing Yards per Game - 7th (http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/rushing-yards-per-game)
Rushing Yards per Attempt - 5th (http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/yards-per-rush-attempt)
Passing Yards per Game - 7th (http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/passing-yards-per-game)
Passing Yards per Attempt - 6th (http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/yards-per-pass-attempt)
Points per Game - 9th (http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/team-stat/scoring-offense-category)
Total Offense - 4th
(http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/team-stat/total-offense-category)

That's not the kind of production you get with a shitty line. I'd say this line performed pretty damn well overall, especially considering they worked through three QB's - none of whom went through camp or played a down for the Packers in the preseason - for half the games.

The line was clearly above average across the board last year in giving QB's time to throw and put together a pretty strong run game from both Lacy and Starks - with some major question marks and injury issues. No sense in letting facts get in the way of a good bitch session I guess.

Barclay going down hurts the depth but this year's line is pretty clearly positioned much better than last year's better-than-average group that had less depth and was strung together with thread quite often and came through pretty well.

This Year
Bulaga pushing Barclay to the bench - upgrade
Tretter replacing EDS - push
Bigger and Stronger Bakh in 2nd year - upgrade
Sherrod Swing Tackle vs. Newhouse - upgrade
Sounds like Linsley's showing up in camp as well to bring some depth inside after Barclay.

[Just Jeff]

Bulaga pushing Barclay to the bench - upgrade
Tretter replacing EDS - push
Bigger and Stronger Bakh in 2nd year - upgrade
Sherrod Swing Tackle vs. Newhouse - upgrade
Sounds like Linsley's showing up in camp as well to bring some depth inside after Barclay.
Well there you have it. Five completely subjective assessments yet, we're crazy that the most sacked QB in the NFL needs to be protected. There's a candy and nuts analogy here somewhere. Having said that I too hope that the line is better, but to assume it will be, just because its someone's next year, or someone who has never taken an NFL snap will take one, or that someone who hasn't played half of a season will show up and stay healthy is crazy. In AR we trust. Unfortunately for AR its his line he must trust.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Bulaga's back, Bachtaria's beefier and in second year.
You gotta feel a lot better than last season.

Reports are Sherrod is rested and ready.

[bobblehead]

Well there you have it. Five completely subjective assessments yet, we're crazy that the most sacked QB in the NFL needs to be protected. There's a candy and nuts analogy here somewhere. Having said that I too hope that the line is better, but to assume it will be, just because its someone's next year, or someone who has never taken an NFL snap will take one, or that someone who hasn't played half of a season will show up and stay healthy is crazy. In AR we trust. Unfortunately for AR its his line he must trust.

Yes, completely ignore the part where he dismantled the premise that it was a bad line (using facts).

[pbmax]

Yes, completely ignore the part where he dismantled the premise that it was a bad line (using facts).

Jeff has one fact and he is sticking too it. Later, he will use that fact to predict the weather this November.

[3irty1]

Even without Barclay I'd say on paper this is the best OL MM's ever started a season with. Last year should have been a disaster considering that we lost our starting LT before the season so I'm happy with their performance.

My only big complaint about our line is how MM has the tendency to take half a season to get the best five players out there. Examples being Spitz and Saturday at center or Barbre at tackle. If Tretter is that level of disaster I hope a change is made before November this time.

[Guiness]

Even without Barclay I'd say on paper this is the best OL MM's ever started a season with. Last year should have been a disaster considering that we lost our starting LT before the season so I'm happy with their performance.

My only big complaint about our line is how MM has the tendency to take half a season to get the best five players out there. Examples being Spitz and Saturday at center or Barbre at tackle. If Tretter is that level of disaster I hope a change is made before November this time.

Have to disagree with that pretty heartily.

2008 - Clifton/Colledge/Wells/Sitton/Tauscher is probably the best line MM started a season with. Biggest problem there would've been Sitton's rookie struggles, but I don't think he had many.

2009 line was an example of what you said, he 'started the season' with Barbre at RT, and brought back Tauscher 4 games in.

[3irty1]

Have to disagree with that pretty heartily.

2008 - Clifton/Colledge/Wells/Sitton/Tauscher is probably the best line MM started a season with. Biggest problem there would've been Sitton's rookie struggles, but I don't think he had many.

2009 line was an example of what you said, he 'started the season' with Barbre at RT, and brought back Tauscher 4 games in.

Sitton spent almost that whole season hurt as I remember it. But you're probably right. Coming into that season you had Clifton coming off a probowl appearance. Colledge at the time still had pretty high expectations. Wells wasn't considered much of a starter at the time but certainly less of a questionmark than Tretter. All we knew about Sitton was that he was a 5th round pick who beat Spitz despite what was probably not a fair fight Tauscher who hadn't yet fallen apart. Spitz would have been our 6th man who was more or less seen as starting quality before he had injury issues. That line was a miserable bunch of run blockers though.

[texaspackerbacker]

hahahaha That second "offensive" sure was a good attention getter, Harlan.

I agree with you, it would be great if Sherrod progresses enough to be THE Left Tackle and Bakhtiari the 6th man, but it's still less than 50/50 at this point.

I tend to agree, POTENTIALLY this O-Line is the best of the McCarthy era - better than the high achievers of '08. They still have to prove it on the field, though.

[Guiness]

Sitton spent almost that whole season hurt as I remember it. But you're probably right. Coming into that season you had Clifton coming off a probowl appearance. Colledge at the time still had pretty high expectations. Wells wasn't considered much of a starter at the time but certainly less of a questionmark than Tretter. All we knew about Sitton was that he was a 5th round pick who beat Spitz despite what was probably not a fair fight Tauscher who hadn't yet fallen apart. Spitz would have been our 6th man who was more or less seen as starting quality before he had injury issues. That line was a miserable bunch of run blockers though.

I see now that Sitton only started two games in 2008, my memory was that he was the starter from day 1. So opening day OL for 2008 would've been Clifton/Colledge/Wells/Spitz/Tauscher. That still might be a better line? Colledge was playing pretty well, and I think Spitz was good? I don't really remember how he did.

[bobblehead]

Even without Barclay I'd say on paper this is the best OL MM's ever started a season with. Last year should have been a disaster considering that we lost our starting LT before the season so I'm happy with their performance.

My only big complaint about our line is how MM has the tendency to take half a season to get the best five players out there. Examples being Spitz and Saturday at center or Barbre at tackle. If Tretter is that level of disaster I hope a change is made before November this time.

MM is deathly afraid of change. I think Burnett getting hurt and missing time this camp might end up a blessing so we actually start the 2 best safeties.

[KYPack]

I see now that Sitton only started two games in 2008, my memory was that he was the starter from day 1. So opening day OL for 2008 would've been Clifton/Colledge/Wells/Spitz/Tauscher. That still might be a better line? Colledge was playing pretty well, and I think Spitz was good? I don't really remember how he did.

Go back and look at 2008. You have the starting line right. That year, we started 2-0. We lost 3 in a row and 5 in a row and wound up 6-10. Nick Collins, C Wood, and Al Harris all made the Pro Bowl. Nick tied for the team lead in picks with Wood at 7. Nick also set Packer records with 3 picks for TD's and record return yardage. Nick was truly on his way to Canton when he got hurt on that funky, fluke ass play.

Wil Blackmon returned BOTH KO's and punts. Man, I don't even remember that dude playing, let alone returning all the kicks.

Only a few years ago, but already a blur in my mind.

[Guiness]

Go back and look at 2008. You have the starting line right. That year, we started 2-0. We lost 3 in a row and 5 in a row and wound up 6-10. Nick Collins, C Wood, and Al Harris all made the Pro Bowl. Nick tied for the team lead in picks with Wood at 7. Nick also set Packer records with 3 picks for TD's and record return yardage. Nick was truly on his way to Canton when he got hurt on that funky, fluke ass play.

Wil Blackmon returned BOTH KO's and punts. Man, I don't even remember that dude playing, let alone returning all the kicks.

Only a few years ago, but already a blur in my mind.

Agreed wrt Collins and Canton. 2008 was certainly a big year for individual performances on the D.

3irty1's comment was that it take half a season for MM to get the OL right, so I was looking at starting lineups opening day. I was even wrong on my second guess for 2008's week 1's starters. It was...duuh duuh duuuuuh...Clifton/Colledge/Spitz/Moll/Tauscher!

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200809080gnb.htm

[Patler]

In 2008, Colledge was the guy they were trying to replace. He had been awfully inconsistent in 2007. Spitz was the more reliable player. Sitton came in and looked to be winning the other guard job in TC, spending time with the 1's. Then later in camp Sitton strained a knee and missed the rest of camp and a few weeks of the season. Colledge got his job back, came on and played better that year. Colledge's improved play, Sitton's potential and Spitz steadiness (and better size than Wells) prompted MM to give Spitz the center job and bench Wells to start 2009, after Spitz had played some at center off and on whenever Wells had injuries. Spitz' injury problems took over in 2009, and effectively ended his career as a starter.

[red]

MM is deathly afraid of change. I think Burnett getting hurt and missing time this camp might end up a blessing so we actually start the 2 best safeties.

there very well could be a situation where burnett is our 4th best safety heading into the regular season, but still starts

[Joemailman]

I don't know that he's afraid of change, but he might be a little leery of starting 2 safeties neither of whom has ever started a game in the NFL. So I see Burnett starting, but he could see his playing time diminish as the others gain experience if he doesn't perform well.

[pbmax]

I don't know that he's afraid of change, but he might be a little leery of starting 2 safeties neither of whom has ever started a game in the NFL. So I see Burnett starting, but he could see his playing time diminish as the others gain experience if he doesn't perform well.

And the leery of change charge is, at best, only applicable to his preseason plan. If he has spent a preseason and camp getting ready to do something, he doesn't change the plan in Week 4 because they are 1-3. In season, he is as stubborn as a mule to avoid constantly changing the scheme. Outside of that, he is pretty accepting of changes to the team and plan.

[pbmax]

In 2008, Colledge was the guy they were trying to replace. He had been awfully inconsistent in 2007. Spitz was the more reliable player. Sitton came in and looked to be winning the other guard job in TC, spending time with the 1's. Then later in camp Sitton strained a knee and missed the rest of camp and a few weeks of the season. Colledge got his job back, came on and played better that year. Colledge's improved play, Sitton's potential and Spitz steadiness (and better size than Wells) prompted MM to give Spitz the center job and bench Wells to start 2009, after Spitz had played some at center off and on whenever Wells had injuries. Spitz' injury problems took over in 2009, and effectively ended his career as a starter.

Didn't Spitz ultimately lose his job at center to injury (and incomplete rehab) rather than performance?

[Patler]

Didn't Spitz ultimately lose his job at center to injury (and incomplete rehab) rather than performance?

Yup, that's why I wrote, " Spitz' injury problems took over in 2009, and effectively ended his career as a starter." MM wanted Spitz at center, not Wells. He gave him the job before TC even started. Well's got the job back only because Spitz went out a few games into the season. Wells was never happy in GB thereafter. Reading between the lines of his and his agent's comments the next few years, I never felt there was much chance of him staying in GB when FA hit.

[Harlan Huckleby]

http://www.espnwisconsin.com/common/page.php?feed=2&id=15111&is_corp=1
Some happy talk for Sherrod.

If somebody at guard or right tackle gets hurt, I'd like to see Bhakitari move there. Keep Sherrod exclusively at LT. It's not ideal situation, but I think Bhakitari looks much more adaptable.

[pbmax]

http://www.espnwisconsin.com/common/page.php?feed=2&id=15111&is_corp=1
Some happy talk for Sherrod.

If somebody at guard or right tackle gets hurt, I'd like to see Bhakitari move there. Keep Sherrod exclusively at LT. It's not ideal situation, but I think Bhakitari looks much more adaptable.

Good grief he evens sounds like Clifton. A whole story, one quote from the player himself. Two sentences.

[bobblehead]

about this time last year I was giddy over our OL prospects (we all thought Sherrod would be ready by the end of camp). Then Bulaga went down, then Sherrod never got healthy, then I started the me and my friend wist thread.

Flash forward. I really like this line. If it stays healthy we could be so good on offense that even the 2-4 defense will work.

[Just Jeff]

about this time last year I was giddy over our OL prospects (we all thought Sherrod would be ready by the end of camp). Then Bulaga went down, then Sherrod never got healthy, then I started the me and my friend wist thread.

Flash forward. I really like this line. If it stays healthy we could be so good on offense that even the 2-4 defense will work.
I agree for the 1st time since TT dismantled the great white wall I think this line could be good. The big white elephant is center. If that holds the rest will be fine.

[Zool]

even the 2-4 defense will work.

Inconceivable!