Injuries -- What is GB Doing Wrong?

[Noodle]

Following some of the references to Chip Kelly in other threads led me to this discussion in Football Outsiders about injuries and how well Philly has done avoiding them:

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2014/2013-adjusted-games-lost

The injury metric also shows how poorly GB has done in avoiding injuries, finishing 32nd in 2012 and 30th in 2013. Consistent suckness at this level isn't just blind bad luck. As Lombardi would say:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4V0TYIO6yv4

[red]

if you can figure out why we are always injured, then you win the grand prize of the internet. we've had all kinds of arguments over why we have so many injuries

some like myself think that our training staff is completely incompetent, others will say "but they win awards, they can't be that bad"

another train of thought is that our staff is more overly cautious compared to other teams. this would be great for players, but leaves us at a great disadvantage to a team that isn't so cautious.

some think its the way we practice, or TT is just picking injury prone players

others think its just plain ole bad luck, which i think is a complete crock of shit. theres a reason we are always one of if not the most injured team in the NFL, and luck has nothing to do with it

[texaspackerbacker]

I disagree. Until proven conclusively otherwise, I'll go with LUCK as the primary factor. Has anybody come up with a better idea? Do you really think if it was anything other than LUCK, the Packers or any team would not take immediate steps to fix it?

[Tony Oday]

Colt is out now too.

[Pugger]

Outside of a handful of players who most likely would NOT be starting we haven't been hit by anything major yet - *knock on wood*. Maybe this will be like 2011 when we were relatively healthy.

[bobblehead]

Outside of a handful of players who most likely would NOT be starting we haven't been hit by anything major yet - *knock on wood*. Maybe this will be like 2011 when we were relatively healthy.

It will be epic if we stay healthy. I am of the theory that if you don't practice hard contact you aren't ready for it. I might have stated that once or twice before. Oh, and I think Worthy gets cut and Sherrod starts at LT over Bak soon. Ok, so we didn't technically cut worthy, but I'm claiming credit.

[BZnDallas]

It will be epic if we stay healthy. I am of the theory that if you don't practice hard contact you aren't ready for it. I might have stated that once or twice before. Oh, and I think Worthy gets cut and Sherrod starts at LT over Bak soon. Ok, so we didn't technically cut worthy, but I'm claiming credit.

If Sherrod did happen to improve enough to over take Bak for the LT spot, would Bak turn into Barcaly II? Is he able to play G and T?

[Noodle]

I freely admit I don't have the answer. But when you see teams like Philly consistently not sucking on the injury front, and our Pack consistently sucking same, it makes you think.

Is it the draft -- the Pack drafts injury prone players? Is it training -- the Pack doesn't know how to train in a way that reduces injury?

I am perplexed, and I'd like to see reporters press MM and TT for their thoughts on the injury front.

[sharpe1027]

Is there any data to suggest that training staffs have more than a marginal effect on injuries? I doubt other teams do much different. Luck seems like the most likely cause of most statistical differences between teams. Correlation is not causation.

[pbmax]

I freely admit I don't have the answer. But when you see teams like Philly consistently not sucking on the injury front, and our Pack consistently sucking same, it makes you think.

Is it the draft -- the Pack drafts injury prone players? Is it training -- the Pack doesn't know how to train in a way that reduces injury?

I am perplexed, and I'd like to see reporters press MM and TT for their thoughts on the injury front.

Its only one year, so the sample size is very small. But as I pointed out in the Training Camp thread, M3 is doing a lot of the things smartfootball is crediting Kelly for bringing into the NFL.

[Patler]

This has gone on too long to be coincidence. I blame a combination of the approach of the strength and conditioning staff, and MM's practices. TT has drafted a few players with injury histories, but everyone does because a lot of college players are injured. GB has had significant time lost by players who played virtually every game in college.

Is the medical staff conservative? Perhaps, but we have also seen player return only to reinjure themselves and miss more time.

Something is missing from the physical preparation of the players.

[Patler]

There was an article at the end of the season that said GB has been among the most injured teams 4 of the last 5 years. That goes beyond coincidence, I think. I think they have to look for a cause.

[Joemailman]

From 2010-2013, 2011 is the one season the Packers didn't have a ton of injuries. This was also the year where there was no offseason training program because of the lockout that followed the 2010 season. Makes me wonder if the offseason training program has been the problem.

[Cheesehead Craig]

From 2010-2013, 2011 is the one season the Packers didn't have a ton of injuries. This was also the year where there was no offseason training program because of the lockout that followed the 2010 season. Makes me wonder if the offseason training program has been the problem.

It's stuff like that that makes it hard to believe that it's not the training staff that is the root cause.

[VegasPackFan]

I may be way off here but I thought I remember hearing that the Seahags don't do much contact at all in practice? They are obviously a very physical team, so I wonder if it's just the lack of wear and tear that helps them be physical and avoid injuries.

[sharpe1027]

I don't know. Two teams can have the exact same number of players with the exact same injuries miss the exact same number of games and come out on completely different ends of that metric based on whether the player is a starter. It is a good way to judge the impact of injuries on a team, but not the frequency or cause of injuries.

Are there really big secrets and differences in preparation and training? Just doesn't pass the eyeball test to me. It seems more plausible that widespread use of PEDs wight have more effect on recovery times and different injuries. I still think there is a healthy dose of randomness involved.

[texaspackerbacker]

From 2010-2013, 2011 is the one season the Packers didn't have a ton of injuries. This was also the year where there was no offseason training program because of the lockout that followed the 2010 season. Makes me wonder if the offseason training program has been the problem.

1 out of 4 sounds about right. Lots of teams have injury problems - many worse than the Packers. 1 LUCKY season out of 4, and maybe 1 LUCKY team out of 4 in any given season around the league. I really don't think we are any worse off than others.

[pbmax]

There is one other factor, outside of a few stray comments this year that seemed to be directed at Nick Perry, McCarthy gives carte blanche to the medical staff and Dr. McKenzie to determine player fitness to participate. Most coaches are constantly in the team doc's ear pushing things along. This probably has the effect of increasing the stay on an injured list.

The offseason program is a very good candidate for blame. Remember the year of the shoulder injuries? After the fact it turned out the Packers had tweaked their program to include more work on shoulders and the results were catastrophic. They may be too far afield for their own good.

Maybe the Packers need more offseason malingerers.

[bobblehead]

If Sherrod did happen to improve enough to over take Bak for the LT spot, would Bak turn into Barcaly II? Is he able to play G and T?

Personally I think Bak is probably more G than T. I think he is VERY much like TJ Lang.

[bobblehead]

I may be way off here but I thought I remember hearing that the Seahags don't do much contact at all in practice? They are obviously a very physical team, so I wonder if it's just the lack of wear and tear that helps them be physical and avoid injuries.

Or drugs.

[bobblehead]

1 out of 4 sounds about right. Lots of teams have injury problems - many worse than the Packers. 1 LUCKY season out of 4, and maybe 1 LUCKY team out of 4 in any given season around the league. I really don't think we are any worse off than others.

Except that statistical evidence says we ARE worse of than almost every other.

[Willard]

I am not sure what training regimen prevents Cobb's leg from breaking or Rodgers' clavicle from snapping, or Matthews' thumb from fracturing last year. The hammy epidemic of years past seems worthy of scrutiny, but many of the Pack's recent injuries seem unrelated to training. Aaron Rodgers has more to do with Cobb's broken leg than do our trainers.

[Patler]

Of course there are injuries that just happen, like those you mentioned. You can throw Bulaga's knee and Finley's neck injuries into the "things happen" category, too. Many of the injuries last year were those types, so maybe they actually have gotten a handle on the problem, and it was difficult to see because there happened to be a high incidence of the unpreventable injuries last year.

Before that, however, one year player after player had shoulder injuries. Then it was core muscle injuries. Recently it has been hamstrings. The fact that there seem to have been bunches of players in a given year with the same types of injuries, and that the injury type varied from year to year would seem to suggest that they were doing somethings as a team that made them more susceptible to a certain injury in a given year. Maybe they have gotten past that. I sure hope so.

[3irty1]

Luck is certainly a part of it but I think the biggest reasons are Ted's drafting tendencies. We don't take an inordinate number of guys with terrible histories of injury, and even when we do I think there is some value in getting guys that have proven they know how to approach rehab because injuries do happen. The reason I think its Ted is because Ted secretly drafts like Al Davis. Ted has a thing for elite athletes and freaks and those are the guys who are pushing the structural integrity of the human body's construction materials. Its particularly bad on the defensive side of the ball. Its not a bad drafting strategy for a team that wants to draft and develop and obviously he's not wholesale trading off athletes over football players like Davis did. The philosophy seems somewhat incompatible with that of Capers though because he runs a scheme that prefers experience and high football IQ which requires regular availability to gain that experience.

[texaspackerbacker]

Luck is certainly a part of it but I think the biggest reasons are Ted's drafting tendencies. We don't take an inordinate number of guys with terrible histories of injury, and even when we do I think there is some value in getting guys that have proven they know how to approach rehab because injuries do happen. The reason I think its Ted is because Ted secretly drafts like Al Davis. Ted has a thing for elite athletes and freaks and those are the guys who are pushing the structural integrity of the human body's construction materials. Its particularly bad on the defensive side of the ball. Its not a bad drafting strategy for a team that wants to draft and develop and obviously he's not wholesale trading off athletes over football players like Davis did. The philosophy seems somewhat incompatible with that of Capers though because he runs a scheme that prefers experience and high football IQ which requires regular availability to gain that experience.

I'm trying to correlate your theory with recent fairly serious injuries, but I can't seem to think of any freaks and elite athletes we've had, but I can't seem to think of any. Who do you have in mind?

[bobblehead]

I am not sure what training regimen prevents Cobb's leg from breaking or Rodgers' clavicle from snapping, or Matthews' thumb from fracturing last year. The hammy epidemic of years past seems worthy of scrutiny, but many of the Pack's recent injuries seem unrelated to training. Aaron Rodgers has more to do with Cobb's broken leg than do our trainers.

Well, rodgers clavicle was a direct result of our OL getting run the fuck over.

[VegasPackFan]

I seriously think all the soft tissue injuries have to to with bad prep and too much stretching crap. My wife is in the fitness industry and they just don't do much stretching anymore, especially pre-workout. You warm up and then you go. Warming up consists of low impact activity to get the heart rate up. Stretching is recommended on off days to loosen up.

I don't know, I would think these trainers would be up on the latest science, right?

[Striker]

Well, rodgers clavicle was a direct result of our OL getting run the fuck over.

Rodgers moved outside of the pocket either to scramble or buy time. Not really the line getting run over...

[gbgary]

it's bad luck. it'll turn around. so far this preseason/camp it hasn't been too bad (knocking on wood).

[bobblehead]

I seriously think all the soft tissue injuries have to to with bad prep and too much stretching crap. My wife is in the fitness industry and they just don't do much stretching anymore, especially pre-workout. You warm up and then you go. Warming up consists of low impact activity to get the heart rate up. Stretching is recommended on off days to loosen up.

I don't know, I would think these trainers would be up on the latest science, right?

Stretching at the end (cool down) is also key. You are correct though, warm up...as in don't go hard on cold muscles is key in latest scientific studies.

[sharpe1027]

I seriously think all the soft tissue injuries have to to with bad prep and too much stretching crap. My wife is in the fitness industry and they just don't do much stretching anymore, especially pre-workout. You warm up and then you go. Warming up consists of low impact activity to get the heart rate up. Stretching is recommended on off days to loosen up.

I don't know, I would think these trainers would be up on the latest science, right?

That's just it, it's hard to believe that there are some hidden training secrets the Packers don't know about. I understand the natural tendency is to say "look more injuries, must be the trainers since they do injury prevention." But it is just speculation without even a theory to explain. Maybe it is the training staff, but the evidence is simply not there IMHO.

[Patler]

I don't know, I would think these trainers would be up on the latest science, right?

I know someone very well who has worked with training staffs in both the NFL and NHL. There is a very strong old school bias in the NFL. "But these are football players..." and "That's not how we do it..." were common responses to suggestions for anything new and different. I think it is changing, but they are not on the cutting edge. Even when trainers want to do it differently, old school head coaches sometimes veto the change.

I suspect the Packers are somewhat in the middle, neither old school nor revolutionary.

[red]

if you don't need to stretch anymore, why are more and more players feeling the need to take up yoga

isn't that a lot like stretching?

[pbmax]

if you don't need to stretch anymore, why are more and more players feeling the need to take up yoga

isn't that a lot like stretching?

You don't do yoga then go practice. Yoga, stretching, IS the workout.

And stretching after a practice is one approach, but mostly the goal is to remove lactic acid from the muscle tissue after anaerobic work. Its helps in recovery. You can do almost any low-key aerobic work to wipe out the lactic acid.

Its such a new school phenomenon that Herb Brooks did it with the 1980 USA Hockey team. There may be far more to this that is known currently.

[VegasPackFan]

if you don't need to stretch anymore, why are more and more players feeling the need to take up yoga

isn't that a lot like stretching?

Yoga is way more than stretching though. It is great for core strength and if you've ever tried it, you'll find out real quick that is is actually a work out. Very difficult actually.

[BZnDallas]

Some times a shit ton of injuries just happens. This article is from the Texas Rangers this season. Injuries has decimated this team, much like GB last year. And this article was written on June 11th. The injuries just keep happening for them as well as they just scratched Yu Darvish from his latest start.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/texas-rangers-historic-injury-woes/

I know its not football or even Packers, but sometimes injuries just happen.